Untreatable: Unpopular Opinions

[DrSpaceman73]

52 minutes ago, Notabug said:

I think it was a little low.  I made $17,000 as an intern in 1982 and finished at around $22,000 in 1986.  ER came along about a decade after I finished, so I would expect Benton made more than that, but, still, not much.  BTW, when I signed the contract as an intern, I was delighted, feeling that that vast amount of money would finally launch me solidly into the middle class.  It did not.

I though Susan's apartment looked typical for a resident at the time.  Anna's was a little shabby, IMO, but, still, not completely out of the question.

The average first year resident makes about $58,000 these days.  Not bad, but not much considering the hours.

I think that's in the ballpark for an experience ER doc, possibly a little more, like low $300's, but reasonable.  And, once again, doesn't explain why Mark was living in a hovel years after finishing his residency.  As an attending, even if he took extra shifts on weekends and holidays, he would not be spending more than maybe 60 hours a week in the ER.  He would've had plenty of time to find a nice place to live and enjoy it.  Most ER docs work 3 12 hour shifts a week.  That's it.  That's a lot of time off between shifts.

I made 30 to 35k in residency from 1999 to 2003.  So it might be a little low for 1994 5 years before but probably only a 2-3k off at best. 

Yeah I read now it's about 60k for residents.  I looked it up because I have a 4th year student with me and he was asking what I made in residency. 

[Driad]

At least Mark's hovel was a counterpoint to the TV trope of characters living in enormous luxury apartments that they could not realistically afford.

[DrSpaceman73]

Wow Mark just keeps digging himself deeper in season one with Jennifer. Basically takes a job as an attending without telling Jennifer and then gets mad when she is upset and tells him she may be in Milwaukee another year.  

He really did just choose that job over his wife. Not just a job as an Ed doctor but a job as an Ed doctor at that hospital which seems to be all he wants. Nothing else.  

But hey at least they will finally have an attending physician in the ER next season!!

[Soobs]

I'm only on season 3 but here's my possibly unpopular opinion: Ansbaugh and Benton (and maybe Carol) are the only real professionals on this show. Everyone else is so dramatic and extra it's cringy at best and scary (because they seem so unfocused on their work) at worst.

Also, Carter needs to mind his own business and stop trying to bring Benton's emotional side out. Benton's personal life and feelings are literally none of anyone's business. Benton seriously could have gone to HR and complained of being harassed and he would have been right!

[Cloud9Shopper]

I agree with you on Anspaugh. I always felt the characters in the earlier seasons are more professional than in the later years. (It gets worse, if you can believe that, although since it seems like it’s your first watch I won’t give too many details.) 

[Danny Franks]

54 minutes ago, Soobs said:

I'm only on season 3 but here's my possibly unpopular opinion: Ansbaugh and Benton (and maybe Carol) are the only real professionals on this show. Everyone else is so dramatic and extra it's cringy at best and scary (because they seem so unfocused on their work) at worst.

Also, Carter needs to mind his own business and stop trying to bring Benton's emotional side out. Benton's personal life and feelings are literally none of anyone's business. Benton seriously could have gone to HR and complained of being harassed and he would have been right!

I mean, if everyone was professional and low drama, the show wouldn't have lasted very long. But I definitely wouldn't say Carol was professional, with the amount of time she spent talking about her relationships in front of patients and mooning over Doug.

I wish Anspaugh had been around more, and he has some really good moments in season three (one of which is where he does get over his unprofessional attitude to Carter and finally listen to him). But I wish even more that Michael Ironside's Dr. Swift had stuck around a lot longer.

[Hiyo]

Quote

But I wish even more that Michael Ironside's Dr. Swift had stuck around a lot longer.

And CCH Pounder's Dr. Hicks as well.

[Notabug]

7 hours ago, Hiyo said:

And CCH Pounder's Dr. Hicks as well.

Dr Hicks also was one of the more adult and professional providers on the show.  I know that the show needed to take dramatic license in order to keep the audience hooked, but a lot of the behavior we saw on the show would not have flown back then and certainly wouldn't now.

As good a pediatrician as Doug was, there are plenty of people just as good who don't come to work hungover and don't assault parents in the waiting room.  He would've been warned the first time and dismissed the second.  Hospitals do not mess around when it comes to physical assaults in the workplace.

The later years were even more egregious, IMO.  Luka sleeping with a med student was grounds for immediate dismissal.  Abby, as a resident, no less; bullying other physicians and patients to do things her way would've been warned and fired; not praised and glorified.

The show always seemed to want to make contrarian behavior look heroic.  In real life, the doc who bucks the system and goes against mainstream medical practice is not to be celebrated, but probably fired.  And, in the vast majority of cases, it is well-deserved.

[Cloud9Shopper]

1 hour ago, Notabug said:

Dr Hicks also was one of the more adult and professional providers on the show.  I know that the show needed to take dramatic license in order to keep the audience hooked, but a lot of the behavior we saw on the show would not have flown back then and certainly wouldn't now.

As good a pediatrician as Doug was, there are plenty of people just as good who don't come to work hungover and don't assault parents in the waiting room.  He would've been warned the first time and dismissed the second.  Hospitals do not mess around when it comes to physical assaults in the workplace.

The later years were even more egregious, IMO.  Luka sleeping with a med student was grounds for immediate dismissal.  Abby, as a resident, no less; bullying other physicians and patients to do things her way would've been warned and fired; not praised and glorified.

The show always seemed to want to make contrarian behavior look heroic.  In real life, the doc who bucks the system and goes against mainstream medical practice is not to be celebrated, but probably fired.  And, in the vast majority of cases, it is well-deserved.

I loved Hicks too! She was such a strong female leader and surgeon, something the show also lacked as time went on. The female characters went from the likes of Hicks, Carol, and Susan, and so forth to Neela and Abby who are emotionally fragile and melt under the slightest pressure. 

Don’t forget Abby being openly drunk at work (by her own admission even) while everyone just turned the other way or laughed it off because Mommyhood was too hard for her with Luka gone to take care of his sick father and no one should question her judgment ever. It always makes me mad that Sam is made the villain for asking her whether she was drunk on shift because “but her ex shot up the hospital!” I’m not a Sam fan either but let’s not act like she planned her own hostage taking and the shooting, and that situation doesn’t make it OK for Abby to work drunk. 

Luka also had that hookup with the patient’s mother in S9, caught by Susan (who was also one of the few adults in the hospital) who reamed him for it. 

[Soobs]

On 10/4/2022 at 12:13 PM, Danny Franks said:

I mean, if everyone was professional and low drama, the show wouldn't have lasted very long. But I definitely wouldn't say Carol was professional, with the amount of time she spent talking about her relationships in front of patients and mooning over Doug.

I wish Anspaugh had been around more, and he has some really good moments in season three (one of which is where he does get over his unprofessional attitude to Carter and finally listen to him). But I wish even more that Michael Ironside's Dr. Swift had stuck around a lot longer.

Yeah, Carol acted like a teenager especially in seasons 1 and 2. She grew up a bit after dating the EMT.

It would have been nice to have a few more serious, detached types to counter all the drama. The few serious characters are treated like they are dead inside/ robots when really that level of detachment that Benton has is what it takes to do that kind of hard work. Most medical professionals I've met act like him.

I liked Dr. Swift too and that character was too short lived. He didn't tip toe around anyone.

My mom was a huge fan of this show and I would watch it with her when I visited from college. Later when she had a serious illness I spent a lot time with her in the ER, sometimes watching ER. All the staff would come in to check on her and roll their eyes at it, lol!

[Cloud9Shopper]

22 minutes ago, Soobs said:

It would have been nice to have a few more serious, detached types to counter all the drama. The few serious characters are treated like they are dead inside/ robots when really that level of detachment that Benton has is what it takes to do that kind of hard work. Most medical professionals I've met act like him.

I liked Dr. Swift too and that character was too short lived. He didn't tip toe around anyone.

My mom was a huge fan of this show and I would watch it with her when I visited from college. Later when she had a serious illness I spent a lot time with her in the ER, sometimes watching ER. All the staff would come in to check on her and roll their eyes at it, lol!

My mom worked in an ER as a unit secretary when I was young and eventually went on to be an LPN. (Her time working in an ER even pre-dates the show.) She was up at my apartment a few months ago when I had on some episodes from S15 and she said she always loved how the show would portray ER doctors as knowing every area of medicine….they were orthopedists, cardiologists and OBs. (Seems to be a common medical show trope; I’ve noticed similar in New Amsterdam and The Resident.) That and how the staff would work on their own families. She did enjoy it overall, though, but was not a fan of Carol. 

I’m the only one in my family who bothered with a full rewatch though. My younger sister quit when the helicopter fell on Romano and had no desire to go back to it (she, like me, is not fond of Abby) and no one else in my family still cares enough to do a rewatch.

Gallant from S8-S12 was a professional, low-drama character I liked. The show needed him to balance out all the navel gazing and immaturity going on by then. 

[Soobs]

1 hour ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

My mom worked in an ER as a unit secretary when I was young and eventually went on to be an LPN. (Her time working in an ER even pre-dates the show.) She was up at my apartment a few months ago when I had on some episodes from S15 and she said she always loved how the show would portray ER doctors as knowing every area of medicine….they were orthopedists, cardiologists and OBs. (Seems to be a common medical show trope; I’ve noticed similar in New Amsterdam and The Resident.) That and how the staff would work on their own families. She did enjoy it overall, though, but was not a fan of Carol. 

I’m the only one in my family who bothered with a full rewatch though. My younger sister quit when the helicopter fell on Romano and had no desire to go back to it (she, like me, is not fond of Abby) and no one else in my family still cares enough to do a rewatch.

Gallant from S8-S12 was a professional, low-drama character I liked. The show needed him to balance out all the navel gazing and immaturity going on by then. 

I remember when the helicopter crash happened, it was A Must See TV type of thing. I can see how that would turn a lot of people off as a jump the shark moment.

When I see that actor, all I can think of is when he was on one of my favorite episodes of the X-Files playing an EMT who regrows his own head.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Soobs

[Hiyo]

Quote

The later years were even more egregious, IMO.  Luka sleeping with a med student was grounds for immediate dismissal. 

It happened long before Luka. Doug and Harper, Carter and Abby Keaton...

Plus you had Mark working while going through chemotherapy, which, no. Not sure most patients who had they known about it would be cool with it.

[Notabug]

12 hours ago, Hiyo said:

It happened long before Luka. Doug and Harper, Carter and Abby Keaton...

Plus you had Mark working while going through chemotherapy, which, no. Not sure most patients who had they known about it would be cool with it.

Nor would Mark's oncologist be on board with him wandering around a crowded ER being exposed to all sorts of people with infections.

ER always made the ER docs more skilled and knowledgeable than actual ER docs could possibly be.  They frequently did procedures that most ER docs would never attempt, even intubations and chest tubes are often handed off to specialists; no ER doc is doing an endoscopy to remove a foreign body from someone's gut or diagnose an ulcer.  They often argued with specialist attendings about the best options for care for patients with unusual problems, they frequently diagnosed stuff like Huntington's Disease, or various infants with genetic metabolic disorders or even did Pap smears and then assessed and offered treatment for those issues when 1.  ER docs have absolutely nothing in their training and work experience to make them experts in those clinical areas and 2. Genetic testing takes weeks to come back from the lab; it isn't done as a stat by the regular hospital lab in the middle of the night.  Pathology on biopsies takes days to be read and a final report issued and 3.  It is really irresponsible, bordering on negligent, for any doctor to give a patient a life-altering diagnosis shortly after meeting them without ordering the appropriate testing after ruling out lesser issues that might cause similar symptoms.  You don't tell a guy in the ER he has Huntington's disease when there are at least a dozen other possible benign explanations for his symptoms that need to be ruled out, not to mention the genetic testing that needs to be done.

ER also compressed time a lot in the ER so we'd see a patient get wheeled in, get intubated and a line thrown, arrest and get CPR and get busted with the paddles and then one of the ER docs crack the chest, all in less than 5 minutes as they frantically moved from procedure to procedure.  In real life, anyone working at that maniacal pace would get drug screened for amphetamines and coke and then told to cut back on the caffeine.  Each intervention takes time, not only to decide to do it, get all the pieces needed to do it, complete the intervention and then give it a few minutes at minimum to see if it worked. 

Speaking of traumas and CPR, ER showed a disproportionate number of young, otherwise healthy people getting injured and then arresting and needing CPR.  Far more likely the victim who arrests is older and with comorbidities.  Even more likely, the vast majority of people who end up arresting in the ER are NOT trauma patients but instead elderly people with serious medical conditions including histories of cancer, strokes or heart attacks.  Because of that CPR in real life is nowhere near as successful as it is in ER.  In real life, only about 10% of those who get CPR survive to discharge and about 20% of those have significant neurologic impairment due to lack of oxygen during the arrest.

Back during my residency and even in the early years of ER, cracking a chest in the ER was a peri-mortem event to be performed only in the very most specific circumstances because it almost never worked except in very specific-and rare- sets of circumstances and only after every other possible intervention had failed.  I once saw the Chief of Surgery at an M&M conference ream out a senior resident for 'mutilation of a corpse' for cracking the chest on a guy who was very obviously well beyond saving.  The idea was it was a cowboy move and being a cowboy and showing off was not considered to be good medicine or appropriate behavior.

One thing ER generally got right was the personalities of the docs.  Doug Ross was a pediatrician.  His voice, his demeanor; all very peds.  Benton was a surgeon, no way he didn't want that kind of power and skill.  He wasn't one for words.  'The only way to heal is with cold blue steel' was his mantra.  Mark wasn't so much an ER doc as a family practitioner; but, since he kinda functioned more as a family doc than an ER doc within the parameters of the show, it fit the script.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Notabug

[Danny Franks]

12 hours ago, Hiyo said:

It happened long before Luka. Doug and Harper, Carter and Abby Keaton...

Plus you had Mark working while going through chemotherapy, which, no. Not sure most patients who had they known about it would be cool with it.

Carter was a doctor by the time he had his affair with Keaton. But definitely still her subordinate and the power imbalance would have allowed her to have a significant impact on his career.

It's interesting, and not that surprising, that the subordinate man and boss woman dynamic was played as romantic while the subordinate woman and boss man affairs were seen as shameful and sordid (and usually a sign of the older man's personal issues).

Rewatching season one and two, the romance between Benton and Jeanie is such a misfire, and handled really badly. He's an unmitigated arsehole to her and everyone else, but a couple of glimpses at the sad little boy who's scared for his mother are apparently enough for Jeanie to jump into bed with him.

Then, once they're involved, Benton barely seems to give a shit about her situation as a married woman, or about her as a person. Jeanie must have been really pissed at Al's philandering, to go for Benton.

10 minutes ago, Notabug said:

One thing ER generally got right was the personalities of the docs.  Doug Ross was a pediatrician.  His voice, his demeanor; all very peds.  Benton was a surgeon, no way he didn't want that kind of power and skill.  He wasn't one for words.  'The only way to heal is with cold blue steel' was his mantra.  Mark wasn't so much an ER doc as a family practitioner; but, since he kinda functioned more as a family doc than an ER doc within the parameters of the show, it fit the script.

I would guess that most of the original characters were based heavily on people Michael Crichton knew when he was an intern, which is why they seem true to the stereotypes. Meanwhile, I reckon Mark was Crichton's own idealised vision of what an ER doctor should be - smart, empathetic, hardworking and noble - which is why he's so often too good to be true.

[Notabug]

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

Carter was a doctor by the time he had his affair with Keaton. But definitely still her subordinate and the power imbalance would have allowed her to have a significant impact on his career.

It's interesting, and not that surprising, that the subordinate man and boss woman dynamic was played as romantic while the subordinate woman and boss man affairs were seen as shameful and sordid (and usually a sign of the older man's personal issues).

Rewatching season one and two, the romance between Benton and Jeanie is such a misfire, and handled really badly. He's an unmitigated arsehole to her and everyone else, but a couple of glimpses at the sad little boy who's scared for his mother are apparently enough for Jeanie to jump into bed with him.

Then, once they're involved, Benton barely seems to give a shit about her situation as a married woman, or about her as a person. Jeanie must have been really pissed at Al's philandering, to go for Benton.

I would guess that most of the original characters were based heavily on people Michael Crichton knew when he was an intern, which is why they seem true to the stereotypes. Meanwhile, I reckon Mark was Crichton's own idealised vision of what an ER doctor should be - smart, empathetic, hardworking and noble - which is why he's so often too good to be true.

Benton and Jeannie kinda came out of nowhere for me.  Yes, she helped care for his mother and did a great job, for which he was very grateful; but other than that and their medical careers, they had virtually nothing in common.  He was also very callous about her concerns about Al finding out about them.  The affair seemed really out of character for both of them, IMO.  I don't think either one was terribly likely to be involved in an extramarital affair and there wasn't any major connection between them other than Benton's mom.

Carter was an intern when Abby Keaton bedded him.  Despite his insistence that it was ok because Benton was his boss which made her his boss' boss; it was unethical and plain old wrong for her, as an attending in the same department where he was a resident, to have a physical relationship with him.  The few times I've ever encountered a resident involved with an attending, it was a relationship that started when both were med students or residents and one was a year or two ahead of the other.  Even then, they went out of their way to avoid working together, to not cause even the slightest rumor that anyone was being treated unfairly because of the relationship.  Had he wanted to, Benton could've gone to the higher ups and rightfully complained and Keaton would've been disciplined, possibly fired.  She most certainly would no longer be Benton's supervising physician, nor Carter's.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Notabug

[WendyCR72]

Even with the issues above, Glenne Headley's Abby was the only Abby I liked. A shame she died so damned young. Hard to believe it has been 5 years already. (Headley died in 2017.)

[Cloud9Shopper]

1 hour ago, WendyCR72 said:

Even with the issues above, Glenne Headley's Abby was the only Abby I liked. A shame she died so damned young. Hard to believe it has been 5 years already. (Headley died in 2017.)

I agree. She seemed like a great doctor, very caring, and knew what made a good pediatric specialist. And she seemed like a lot of fun too. 

[Hiyo]

Quote

Benton was a surgeon, no way he didn't want that kind of power and skill.  He wasn't one for words.  'The only way to heal is with cold blue steel' was his mantra. 

In the pilot he also referred to the non-surgeons in the ER as pill pushers, or something to that effect.

[Bastet]

12 hours ago, Hiyo said:

In the pilot he also referred to the non-surgeons in the ER as pill pushers, or something to that effect.

Yeah, it's in his tour of the ER:

Quote

All along here you have the medical examining rooms.  This is where the pill pushers kill their victims.

But this.  This is the surgical room.  This is where the real action is.

[Notabug]

18 hours ago, Hiyo said:

In the pilot he also referred to the non-surgeons in the ER as pill pushers, or something to that effect.

When I was a resident, we referred to the Internal Medicine residents as fleas.  Because internists, like fleas, are the last to leave a dying body.  That and they travel in packs on rounds and 'swarm' around the patients.  

Especially in teaching hospitals, there is a certain competitiveness between the surgical and non-surgical specialties.  So, it seemed very realistic to hear Benton putting down the non-surgical docs.

Edited October 8, 2022 by Notabug

[Cloud9Shopper]

The more I think about it, the more I think Sam deserves more sympathy for her difficult circumstances before she came on the show and some of the things that happened after. Not saying I totally love her now or anything but she did get pregnant very young and then have to deal with Alex going out of control when he was a teenager, she apparently grew up in a family of alcoholics and then she becomes a victim of her ex at the end of S12/start of 13. It’s kind of sad how she’s totally ignored but Abby gets multiple free passes and coddling because her childhood was bad and she’s a drunk.

I also don’t have a problem with how Sam treated Abby after rehab. Abby hadn’t deserved or earned forgiveness or trust no matter how “brave” she was pretending to be. Why should Sam fall at her feet and worship her when she may be understandably wary of Abby’s “I’m so redeemed; please like me” act after growing up around alcoholics and seeing her drunk at work? And the fact that she takes all the blame for Abby’s hysterectomy is weird too, as if she planned her own kidnapping and was the one shooting everybody in a twisted plot to kill the Luby baby. Abby should be taking just as much shit for her attitude in Bloodline and her disregard for her baby’s life so she could have everything she wanted like she was on a luxury cruise ship. Thank God she couldn’t have more children, honestly after her massive tantrum.

I don’t have an issue with Sam as much anymore once she’s going back to school and is clearly working hard and trying to get on a better career track.  

[Notabug]

6 minutes ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

The more I think about it, the more I think Sam deserves more sympathy for her difficult circumstances before she came on the show and some of the things that happened after. Not saying I totally love her now or anything but she did get pregnant very young and then have to deal with Alex going out of control when he was a teenager, she apparently grew up in a family of alcoholics and then she becomes a victim of her ex at the end of S12/start of 13. It’s kind of sad how she’s totally ignored but Abby gets multiple free passes and coddling because her childhood was bad and she’s a drunk.

I also don’t have a problem with how Sam treated Abby after rehab. Abby hadn’t deserved or earned forgiveness or trust no matter how “brave” she was pretending to be. Why should Sam fall at her feet and worship her when she may be understandably wary of Abby’s “I’m so redeemed; please like me” act after growing up around alcoholics and seeing her drunk at work? And the fact that she takes all the blame for Abby’s hysterectomy is weird too, as if she planned her own kidnapping and was the one shooting everybody in a twisted plot to kill the Luby baby. Abby should be taking just as much shit for her attitude in Bloodline and her disregard for her baby’s life so she could have everything she wanted like she was on a luxury cruise ship. Thank God she couldn’t have more children, honestly after her massive tantrum.

I don’t have an issue with Sam as much anymore once she’s going back to school and is clearly working hard and trying to get on a better career track.  

You make some very good points.  I suppose it was, at least in part, due to the writing of the characters as well as the actor's portrayals; but there was a double standard.  By the time Abby appeared on the show, she had been an adult for a couple of decades; yet, everyone was so concerned about poor, sad Abby and her terrible childhood; acting like it was fine for her to wallow in it and make no effort to get past it.

  We saw Sam getting the stink eye from her coworkers for daring to ask Abby if she'd ever been drinking at work.  Sam already knew the answer because she worked with her; but. as part of her 12 steps, Abby was supposed to honestly admit her mistakes and apologize.  Aside from patient lives, she risked her coworkers' jobs and their own emotional well being when she worked while drunk.  Sam was not wrong for asking about it during a meeting that was supposed to be about Abby's alcoholism and treatment.

[Cloud9Shopper]

So I guess this is at least semi-unpopular but Mark and Elizabeth are my favorite ER couple. What draws me to them is that it’s nice to see two settled and more mature people get into a relationship, having innocent fun and genuinely enjoying each other’s company. It’s too bad Rachel came along and Mark got the tumor and they had to have all this drama because I think they were just fine to watch.

But even when there was drama and they were separated, also…Elizabeth wasn’t off coping with her stress by kissing other men when she was supposed to be loyal to Mark or getting three sheets to the wind and waking up with random men with no clue how she got there. Mark is generally good to her, and they don’t keep a lot of secrets; he told her about the tumor pretty quick (I’m assuming that a ton of time did not pass between 7x7 and 7x8). It’s too bad we didn’t get to see more time with them excited to have a baby and be a married couple. After so much relationship drama on this show based on other couples’ immaturity, it was nice to see Mark and Elizabeth not treat each other with the same level of pettiness. 

[andidante]

57 minutes ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

So I guess this is at least semi-unpopular but Mark and Elizabeth are my favorite ER couple. What draws me to them is that it’s nice to see two settled and more mature people get into a relationship, having innocent fun and genuinely enjoying each other’s company. It’s too bad Rachel came along and Mark got the tumor and they had to have all this drama because I think they were just fine to watch.

 

They are my favorite too! I really liked them together.

[Notabug]

4 hours ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

So I guess this is at least semi-unpopular but Mark and Elizabeth are my favorite ER couple. What draws me to them is that it’s nice to see two settled and more mature people get into a relationship, having innocent fun and genuinely enjoying each other’s company. It’s too bad Rachel came along and Mark got the tumor and they had to have all this drama because I think they were just fine to watch.

But even when there was drama and they were separated, also…Elizabeth wasn’t off coping with her stress by kissing other men when she was supposed to be loyal to Mark or getting three sheets to the wind and waking up with random men with no clue how she got there. Mark is generally good to her, and they don’t keep a lot of secrets; he told her about the tumor pretty quick (I’m assuming that a ton of time did not pass between 7x7 and 7x8). It’s too bad we didn’t get to see more time with them excited to have a baby and be a married couple. After so much relationship drama on this show based on other couples’ immaturity, it was nice to see Mark and Elizabeth not treat each other with the same level of pettiness. 

Except for TPTB turning Elizabeth into a miserable shrew after the baby; something they did with far too many female character on this show, I agree that Mark and Elizabeth were poster children for adult mature relationships on a show that didn't feature many grown-up love stories.  My only qualm was that Elizabeth and Benton had sizzling chemistry together and brought out one another's playful sides and, had things been different; I'd really have liked to see them give it a go.

[Cloud9Shopper]

I love Peter and Elizabeth too and wouldn’t have minded them getting back together and doing a long-distance relationship thing at the end. Better than Peter being with Cleo, who tries to initiate sexy time with all the enthusiasm of someone who’s reading a morning traffic report. 

[Bastet]

Elizabeth lost her sparkle with Mark.  I never thought of him as a life suck until they got together, but he certainly did something to her.  It would have been nice to see a mature relationship, where the drama came from things like cancer and kids rather than petty spats and outlandish behavior, but he dulled my favorite character, and that I cannot abide.

[Heathen]

On 9/15/2023 at 7:35 AM, Cloud9Shopper said:

So I guess this is at least semi-unpopular but Mark and Elizabeth are my favorite ER couple. What draws me to them is that it’s nice to see two settled and more mature people get into a relationship, having innocent fun and genuinely enjoying each other’s company. It’s too bad Rachel came along and Mark got the tumor and they had to have all this drama because I think they were just fine to watch.

But even when there was drama and they were separated, also…Elizabeth wasn’t off coping with her stress by kissing other men when she was supposed to be loyal to Mark or getting three sheets to the wind and waking up with random men with no clue how she got there. Mark is generally good to her, and they don’t keep a lot of secrets; he told her about the tumor pretty quick (I’m assuming that a ton of time did not pass between 7x7 and 7x8). It’s too bad we didn’t get to see more time with them excited to have a baby and be a married couple. After so much relationship drama on this show based on other couples’ immaturity, it was nice to see Mark and Elizabeth not treat each other with the same level of pettiness. 

Mark and Elizabeth were one of my favorite couples, too. Just normal people growing into a relationship and doing couple things, not just F&F like some others. 

[GiandujaPie]

Wasn't the point of showing Elizabeth spatting with Mark once Ella was born to show that even accomplished career women like Elizabeth don't have it together all the time either? I think it was a way to show she was far from perfect and not immune to the pressures of having a baby and a career. And it also highlighted how Mark at times still felt his career was more important than his wife's, even with wife #2, who was equally if not more accomplished than he was. At least with Jen, you could see how it was difficult for him to adjust from her being stay at home mom and law student to a successful woman with a career. 

My very unpopular opinion is that I do like Abby, way more than I ever liked Neela, especially now that I'm older. Neela just comes across as whiny and petulant and I've never ever seen the appeal of her. I'm watching the show with my husband now, and he never watched it back in the day, and he can't see how Neela becomes successful after the ridiculous Season 11 storyline of her quitting her internship. When she goes back to the hospital and begs Kerry for a job, any job, he was incredulous, like what type of job does she think she should get? I wish Kerry had offered her a job as a janitor and see if she was really that desperate. 

[Cloud9Shopper]

I mind Abby less when she is not the center of attention of a plot or episode. She’s just too much to take when everything in the ER universe is focused on her. So I won’t agree there, but I did get a laugh out of the possibility of Kerry offering Neela a janitor job. Neela was applying for retail and coffee shops, though, so something tells me she would have been that desperate… 

[Notabug]

26 minutes ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

I mind Abby less when she is not the center of attention of a plot or episode. She’s just too much to take when everything in the ER universe is focused on her. So I won’t agree there, but I did get a laugh out of the possibility of Kerry offering Neela a janitor job. Neela was applying for retail and coffee shops, though, so something tells me she would have been that desperate… 

I got Abby-fatigue pretty quickly as she was shoehorned into every other characters' storyline, giving her ridiculous amounts of screentime.  Kerry has a miscarriage?  Of course, it is Abby who takes care of her.  Kerry's baby in the NICU?  Of course, it is Abby who cares for him while Kerry allows her to perform procedures on her baby that most docs wouldn't want anyone other than a seasoned attending to do.  Kerry is having hip replacement surgery?  Of course, it is Abby to whom she turns to extract a promise to raise her son if she dies in the OR  despite the fact that Abby, to that point, had shown herself to be pretty awful with her mother and brother and had shown no signs of being able to parent anyone.  Hell, she killed Kovac' fish, why would anyone trust her with a baby?

Neela's husband is killed in the war? Of course, it is Abby who receives the news from the chaplain, who tells the rest of their coworkers, who seemingly handles everything while Neela is either offscreen or in the background.

We've already talked about Abby's intrusive presence in virtually every aspect of Carter and Kovac's lives, even when they were not sleeping with her.  Luka's girlfriend gets pregnant?  Of course it is Abby who finds out and realizes she terminated it.  Carter is using drugs in the ER.  Of course, it is Abby who discovers it and tells the bosses.  He returns and of course, only Abby can be his  AA sponsor.  He relapses and heads straight to Abby.

I swear, MT must've had it in her contract that Abby had to appear in a major storyline of her own in every episode in addition to being seen in everyone else' too.  She had more screentime and more lines than any other actor on the show, by far.   Watch an episode during the Abby years and keep an eye on how long she is onscreen and how often she pops up in scenes in other characters' storylines.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Notabug

[GiandujaPie]

In Neela's mind, I'm sure she thought a retail or coffee shop job would be "fun" and easy. How hard can it be to use a cash register or serve coffee? After all, she was a customer of those establishments and she saw how "easy" those jobs are. <sarcasm> However, being a janitor at a hospital, where she was intimately familiar with how disgusting it could get, I would be willing to bet she'd think she was above that. 

[Bastet]

3 hours ago, GiandujaPie said:

My very unpopular opinion is that I do like Abby,

Having never been to any other forums, I am willing to accept as true assertions that the pro-Abby sentiment is as relentless elsewhere as the anti-Abby sentiment here, in which case I think mine is the truly unpopular opinion:  Abby is fine.  She's not the best, she's not the worst, she has good traits, she has bad traits, she got good stories, she got annoying stories.  She's fine.  She's not my favorite, but I don't mind her at all.  The screen time given to her family members was obnoxious as all get out, but I - again with the caveat as the seasons went on I paid less and less attention - never got aggravated by her presence.  So many characters had left, she was one of the familiar faces to me as a bunch of new "kids" came on, and there was comfort in the familiarity.

[Cloud9Shopper]

That’s a fine opinion to have, and you are right about this: 

17 hours ago, Bastet said:

Having never been to any other forums, I am willing to accept as true assertions that the pro-Abby sentiment is as relentless elsewhere as the anti-Abby sentiment here.

Part of the reason why I hang out here a lot is because saying I dislike Abby anywhere else means Abby fangirls who are so rabid will hurl insults at me for my interpretation of the character. Literally I’ve been called hateful, a liar (someone tried to tell me I can’t say Abby was a bad mom in S13 when Bloodline proved what a terrible mom she is…a good parent wouldn’t argue about treatments that would save their premature baby or refuse the anesthesia they were told they needed), told I don’t understand alcoholism, accused of having my own issues and not having empathy for others. And they relate to Abby so closely they admit it upsets them to see any criticism of the character because they think it’s an attack on them. People here just seem to be more nuanced and tolerant of other opinions, which is good. A lot of other fan spaces are just this circlejerk and echo chamber of Abby (and Abby/Luka) worship and looking down on anyone who doesn’t feel the same. 

The unhealthy behavior of Abby fans and how overrated the character and Maura Tierney is in general have also made me dislike her a lot more. And yes, for the record I know what alcoholism is. It killed my mom’s brother nearly 20 years ago and I have met people in recovery. The IRL recovering addicts I’ve met were nowhere near as miserable as Abby. 

Edited September 19, 2023 by Cloud9Shopper

[Palimelon]

Quote

My very unpopular opinion is that I do like Abby,

Same here. And I think Maura is a good actress too.

[satrunrose]

On 9/18/2023 at 11:51 AM, GiandujaPie said:

My very unpopular opinion is that I do like Abby, way more than I ever liked Neela, especially now that I'm older. Neela just comes across as whiny and petulant and I've never ever seen the appeal of her. I'm watching the show with my husband now, and he never watched it back in the day, and he can't see how Neela becomes successful after the ridiculous Season 11 storyline of her quitting her internship. When she goes back to the hospital and begs Kerry for a job, any job, he was incredulous, like what type of job does she think she should get? I wish Kerry had offered her a job as a janitor and see if she was really that desperate. 

I haaaaated Neela so much in that story line. To be fair, I was desperately trying to get into med school at that time and the fact that she had Everything! I! Wanted! and was throwing it all away did not go over well for young 20s me. I've never felt much of a drive to re-watch the later seasons, but I might want to give that one another try. I'm curious to see whether I'm more understanding, or at least less over the top about it now. 

[Notabug]

2 hours ago, satrunrose said:

I haaaaated Neela so much in that story line. To be fair, I was desperately trying to get into med school at that time and the fact that she had Everything! I! Wanted! and was throwing it all away did not go over well for young 20s me. I've never felt much of a drive to re-watch the later seasons, but I might want to give that one another try. I'm curious to see whether I'm more understanding, or at least less over the top about it now. 

I actually attended medical school and it drove me crazy both the first time I watched and on subsequent viewings.  It made no sense at all that someone so ambivalent about being a physician would've actually finished med school and gone into a residency anyway.  Certainly people can and do change specialties once they start a residency and discover they're not well suited or like something else better.  But to quit and go to work in a mini mart?  Surely she had student loans, if nothing else, to keep her in the medical field.  It is doubtful anyone could survive on a mini-mart salary and she had to have some sort of college degree which could've been used to find a better job.

I will say that at least 2 people in my med school class of 200+ quit, but both did so by their second year, why anyone would work 80-100 hours a week to get through it only to quit afterwards baffles me.

Edited August 5 by Notabug

[Cloud9Shopper]

3 hours ago, satrunrose said:

I haaaaated Neela so much in that story line. To be fair, I was desperately trying to get into med school at that time and the fact that she had Everything! I! Wanted! and was throwing it all away did not go over well for young 20s me. I've never felt much of a drive to re-watch the later seasons, but I might want to give that one another try. I'm curious to see whether I'm more understanding, or at least less over the top about it now. 

I never liked that storyline either, or watching her grovel to find retail positions. As someone who is in a never ending job search and has been out of work, it made sense why she wouldn’t be a serious candidate to work in a mall. Why wouldn’t she search for alternative paths like medical research or anything that would make better use of her education?

I’ve been through the whole series once, about three years ago, and started over in 2022 but lost interest in S10 after skipping a lot of S9 episodes. 

[Notabug]

19 minutes ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

I never liked that storyline either, or watching her grovel to find retail positions. As someone who is in a never ending job search and has been out of work, it made sense why she wouldn’t be a serious candidate to work in a mall. Why wouldn’t she search for alternative paths like medical research or anything that would make better use of her education?

I’ve been through the whole series once, about three years ago, and started over in 2022 but lost interest in S10 after skipping a lot of S9 episodes. 

Chicago has a huge presence in medicine and medical technology.  Neela had a graduate degree in medicine.  There's no reason she couldn't have found a decent job with a pharmaceutical company, a medical device manufacturer or even a hospital system.  They are often looking for people with medical backgrounds who do not want to practice.

A friend's daughter went to med school (my friend is a doc) and then did a residency but didn't love medical practice.  She got her MBA and worked at a major medical center as an administrator; making a good salary with benefits.  No reason Neela couldn't have followed a similar path.

[Palimelon]

Even if she was going into retail, she could have aimed a bit higher than a mini-mart.

[Palimelon]

Then again, the show seemed to present it like County was the only decent(ish) hospital in Chicago where these people could get a job at. Off the top of my head, there were only 3 characters who didn't die and who stayed in Chicago that we know of*, Jeanie, Benton, and Finch. And Carter, kind of? And of the four of them, only Benton and Finch got jobs at another hospital. Now, I get for storyline purposes, they might have wanted the characters to leave so that the audience wouldn't keep asking why we never saw those characters again and/or why they weren't showing up during significant moments in the current cast's lives**, but still. And yeah for some of the characters it might have made sense for them to "start over" or whatever. But it did seem like for most of these people, their only option for working in Chicago was County, and...nowhere else.

* I don't think the show ever mentioned what happened to Malucci after he got fired, and Chen said she was staying in China, no?

** I always found it strange that Jeanie had no idea that Weaver had not only left County but had also left to another city. The two of them were somewhat close, and you'd think they would have still kept in touch every once in a while with updates on their lives.

Edited August 6 by Palimelon

[Cloud9Shopper]

Chen came back to Chicago after being in China originally to care for her parents but as I recall it, she quit County in S11 (?) and was never mentioned again. 

I wonder if Kerry and Jeanie just fell out of touch, as that’s just what happens in real life sometimes with work friends. 

[CrazyInAlabama]

If I recall correctly, Chen's parents were visiting China, were in an accident, mother died, and Chen brought the father home.   After her final episode after her father died, she went back to China, because she had relatives there, and no relatives in Chicago.   Of course I could be totally wrong, I frequently am.  

[Notabug]

1 hour ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

If I recall correctly, Chen's parents were visiting China, were in an accident, mother died, and Chen brought the father home.   After her final episode after her father died, she went back to China, because she had relatives there, and no relatives in Chicago.   Of course I could be totally wrong, I frequently am.  

That sounds about right to me.  Her exit was no more than a couple of throw-away lines.  It's hard to remember details when there are no details.

We never heard from Malucci again as I recall.  I guess we were supposed to assume he never got another residency. Highly unlikely.

It did bug that the show kinda went two ways: first, County was poor and didn't always have the most up-to-date equipment, didn't pay its staff as much as other places, had less of everything and poorer quality.  We saw how many questionable hires worked there, apparently without anyone checking a reference including Amanda Lee, Clemente, Lawrence and even Malucci.  Yet, they were constantly insisting that County provided the best care in the city, that all of the other hospitals were death traps.

I was kinda surprised when the show had Carter get his kidney transplant at fake Northwestern.  I kept expecting him to have some sort of complication that only the superdocs at County could fix.

[Palimelon]

I always felt it depended which department you were looking at when it came to County. The ER itself wasn't the best funded, but other departments, like surgery, were and were also well regarded. And it did seem to have a respectable teaching program as well.

[Mrsmaul2021]

On 8/5/2024 at 8:48 AM, satrunrose said:

I haaaaated Neela so much in that story line. To be fair, I was desperately trying to get into med school at that time and the fact that she had Everything! I! Wanted! and was throwing it all away did not go over well for young 20s me. I've never felt much of a drive to re-watch the later seasons, but I might want to give that one another try. I'm curious to see whether I'm more understanding, or at least less over the top about it now. 

 

 

I was watching Pop this morning and the ER run ended with season 10 finale. I decided to go to Max and start season 11 and to this day, I don't get the point of this storyline.  Spent her parents hard earned money and reneged on paying  for her siblings school because she wanted to "improvise". Her words. 

Edited August 6 by Mrsmaul2021

[satrunrose]

I got the impression that she had been micromanaged by helicopter parents and wanted to make her own choices for once. I don't think that's a bad plot, but it didn't make sense for her age and stage. The other thing that bugged me (and in retrospect, it's probably my biggest complaint about the series as a whole) is that there weren't any consequences for that decision. Medicine is insanely competitive and it made no sense that Neela could just go "oopsies! I don't like retail! Take me back!" and have it all work out, convenient drop-out or not. 

[pottercj]

Eh, the hospital I work at is not "well funded" in certain 

On 8/6/2024 at 8:50 AM, Palimelon said:

Then again, the show seemed to present it like County was the only decent(ish) hospital in Chicago where these people could get a job at. Off the top of my head, there were only 3 characters who didn't die and who stayed in Chicago that we know of*, Jeanie, Benton, and Finch. And Carter, kind of? And of the four of them, only Benton and Finch got jobs at another hospital. Now, I get for storyline purposes, they might have wanted the characters to leave so that the audience wouldn't keep asking why we never saw those characters again and/or why they weren't showing up during significant moments in the current cast's lives**, but still. And yeah for some of the characters it might have made sense for them to "start over" or whatever. But it did seem like for most of these people, their only option for working in Chicago was County, and...nowhere else.

 

I never got the impression that they couldn't work anywhere else in Chicago, but ... Look, most of the medical schools/residencies in Chicago are very competitive. 

People like Malluci, Chen (who outright stated she was only in school because of her parents' money), Morris, and Susan ("Research is hard! I just want to be a doctor!") aren't getting jobs at NOrthwestern or UofC. 

People like Benton could and eventually did, but the entire arc where Romano was able to influence every other surgery unit in Chicago was hilariously stupid. I work in a hospital the size (and poverty level) of Chicago. I can't imagine one of our surgeons calling up Northwestern and going "well, actually, this guy sucks" and that having more weight than .... the guy's entire career. It's such a silly thing. Especially because you know hyper competitive Benton has published and presented multiple times. 

What I never understood is why Carter, especially consideirng some people's hang-ups in season 7 (hang ups they never had when Saint Abby came to work drunk) didn't just fuck off to another hospital. At that point, he had a hostile work environment, shitty coworkers, and PTSD from a place that never gave a damn about the safety of its workers. Just leave, dude. 

(That should have been his exit. Not the Africa nonsense. Just him going "yeah, County does suck, bye.")

On 8/5/2024 at 11:33 AM, Notabug said:

I actually attended medical school and it drove me crazy both the first time I watched and on subsequent viewings.  It made no sense at all that someone so ambivalent about being a physician would've actually finished med school and gone into a residency anyway.  Certainly people can and do change specialties once they start a residency and discover they're not well suited or like something else better.  But to quit and go to work in a mini mart?  Surely she had student loans, if nothing else, to keep her in the medical field.  It is doubtful anyone could survive on a mini-mart salary and she had to have some sort of college degree which could've been used to find a better job.

I will say that at least 2 people in my med school class of 200+ quit, but both did so by their second year, why anyone would work 80-100 hours a week to get through it only to quit afterwards baffles me.

I mean, Chen was just as ambivalent about it. So it's weird that everyone gets bothered by Neela, but not by Chen. At leas Neela never killed anyone with her incompetence. 

As someone else who also attended med school, Neela's ambivalence rings pretty true to me. By the time I reached my third year of residency, the amount of people I'd gone to school with who were actively searching for non-clinical jobs after putting in all that fucking effort was pretty high. 

 

[Palimelon]

Quote

People like Malluci, Chen (who outright stated she was only in school because of her parents' money), Morris, and Susan ("Research is hard! I just want to be a doctor!") aren't getting jobs at NOrthwestern or UofC. 

They didn't necessarily have to get jobs at places of that caliber, but there are lots and lots of hospitals in the city and suburbs that could have been options for them.