Untreatable: Unpopular Opinions

[Bastet]

On 9/25/2021 at 3:47 AM, Steven69 said:

It wasn't the writers whom broke the pair up. In real life he didn't want his character to be in an interracial relationship.

No, he liked the Corday/Benton relationship and was not opposed to an interracial relationship in and of itself.  What he objected to was having the relationship with a white professional be Benton's only successful relationship, while his relationships with Black women were dysfunctional messes, nothing but fucking and fighting.  As the Black lead of one of TV's biggest shows, he felt a responsibility not to be part of that messaging.  Good for him.

[susannah]

On 7/14/2020 at 2:41 PM, Tallulah7606 said:

I’m a bit old school though and what today is often perceived as verbal sexual harassment, I just see as harmless sexualised banter.

What was harmless about it? It's not harmless to the recipient, plus, if only one person is "bantering," it's not "banter." It wasn't "perceived" sexual harassment, it was completely sexual harassment. Plus he touched women with his prosthetic arm, screamed at and terrorized everyone he worked with, fired Benton without cause and then blackballed him around town just because he was pissed off at him, fired Kim without cause because she was lesbian, tried to fire Kerry but she told him to shove it , and that are only examples I remember.He did have one layer of humanity, but except for one or two moments, you'd have to dig for it so deep you'd hit China first. He was clearly a very angry, damaged person, but spent his life making everyone around him suffer.

[Rootbeer]

On 10/19/2021 at 2:50 AM, susannah said:

What was harmless about it? It's not harmless to the recipient, plus, if only one person is "bantering," it's not "banter." It wasn't "perceived" sexual harassment, it was completely sexual harassment. Plus he touched women with his prosthetic arm, screamed at and terrorized everyone he worked with, fired Benton without cause and then blackballed him around town just because he was pissed off at him, fired Kim without cause because she was lesbian, tried to fire Kerry but she told him to shove it , and that are only examples I remember.He did have one layer of humanity, but except for one or two moments, you'd have to dig for it so deep you'd hit China first. He was clearly a very angry, damaged person, but spent his life making everyone around him suffer.

Absolutely.  There is nothing harmless about unwanted, inappropriate behavior in the workplace.  I've been in medicine for 40+ years and that stuff went down all the time back in the day and, IMO, it was a way of intimidating women to keep them in their place; a constant reminder that it was the men who were in charge.

In med school, I attended a Pathology lecture on the heart in 1980 or so.  The lecturer, a tenured member of the faculty and physician, used pictures of women taken from various men's magazines that featured 'c*** shots' and used the female anatomy to compare to the structures in the human heart.  I kid you not.  It happened and there were about 150 medical students present.  My class had the highest number of women students ever at the time, about 40 out of 200+ which the med school bragged about all the time.  Most of us sat there slack jawed and embarrassed as the lecture unfolded, a few left, most of us were too stunned to move.  After the lecture, a few of us went to the lecturer and told him his approach was offensive.  He laughed and told us we were too sensitive.  We then went to the dean in charge of that part of the curriculum, about 10 of us including a couple of guys who also found it disgusting and inappropriate.  We were advised that we were in the minority, that this lecture had been given for many years using these pictures, that it was a well known highlight of the lecture series and we obviously didn't have a sense of humor because it was all in good fun.  So, go away.

Guys like Romano were a dime a dozen back in the day and I, for one, am glad that they are no longer encouraged and supported.

Edited October 20, 2021 by Rootbeer

[susannah]

37 minutes ago, Rootbeer said:

Absolutely.  There is nothing harmless about unwanted, inappropriate behavior in the workplace.  I've been in medicine for 40+ years and that stuff went down all the time back in the day and, IMO, it was a way of intimidating women to keep them in their place; a constant reminder that it was the men who were in charge.

In med school, I attended a Pathology lecture on the heart in 1980 or so.  The lecturer, a tenured member of the faculty and physician, used pictures of women taken from various men's magazines that featured 'c*** shots' and used the female anatomy to compare to the structures in the human heart.  I kid you not.  It happened and there were about 150 medical students present.  My class had the highest number of women students ever at the time, about 40 out of 200+ which the med school bragged about all the time.  Most of us sat there slack jawed and embarrassed as the lecture unfolded, a few left, most of us were too stunned to move.  After the lecture, a few of us went to the lecturer and told him his approach was offensive.  He laughed and told us we were too sensitive.  We then went to the dean in charge of that part of the curriculum, about 10 of us including a couple of guys who also found it disgusting and inappropriate.  We were advised that we were in the minority, that this lecture had been given for many years using these pictures, that it was a well known highlight of the lecture series and we obviously didn't have a sense of humor because it was all in good fun.  So, go away.

Guys like Romano were a dime a dozen back in the day and I, for one, am glad that they are no longer encouraged and supported.

"Don't be so sensitive."

"can't you take a joke?"

"women don't belong here. they should be at home cleaning the house."

"Oh they like it, all right."

"no woman is going to tell us what to do"

and so on, sickeningly. I am so sorry that happened to you. Such treatment has just been a fact of life for girls and women, for life. Society, men and women, have taught boys that their sexual power is absolute, that they have the right to have sex with whoever they want to, no matter the age or circumstances, whenever they want to, however they want to, because then they are real men. Women just have to submit to it, and suffer the anger and the insults and diminishment when they don't. It is mind boggling that to this day, when a man disagrees with a woman, the response will most likely be a sexually based insult. I don't want to tar all men with the same brush but as a whole, this is what society has created. I have read enough non fiction books about women in male occupations, etc to know how they have been treated.

Women at least now have a resource when they are dealing with a Romano, but that doesn't change the Romano's feelings of male privilege, and that is the main problem.

[Danny Franks]

On 9/29/2021 at 10:39 PM, Bastet said:

No, he liked the Corday/Benton relationship and was not opposed to an interracial relationship in and of itself.  What he objected to was having the relationship with a white professional be Benton's only successful relationship, while his relationships with Black women were dysfunctional messes, nothing but fucking and fighting.  As the Black lead of one of TV's biggest shows, he felt a responsibility not to be part of that messaging.  Good for him.

I can certainly understand that, and it was a difficult dilemma for a show, particularly at a time when any kind of interracial relationship on American television was seen as incredibly progressive.

The show mishandled Carla and turned her into a 'baby mama' stereotype, after she'd first been introduced as a smart, successful businesswoman (although the writers did redeem themselves by having her marry Roger and apparently be a settled, happy couple). I can see why Eriq La Salle felt pressure to not then tacitly say 'he needs a white woman to be respectable.'

They really could have done better than the Cleo Bot, though.

On 10/19/2021 at 7:50 AM, susannah said:

What was harmless about it? It's not harmless to the recipient, plus, if only one person is "bantering," it's not "banter." It wasn't "perceived" sexual harassment, it was completely sexual harassment. Plus he touched women with his prosthetic arm, screamed at and terrorized everyone he worked with, fired Benton without cause and then blackballed him around town just because he was pissed off at him, fired Kim without cause because she was lesbian, tried to fire Kerry but she told him to shove it , and that are only examples I remember.He did have one layer of humanity, but except for one or two moments, you'd have to dig for it so deep you'd hit China first. He was clearly a very angry, damaged person, but spent his life making everyone around him suffer.

Romano seems to get a pass from some people because Paul McCrane is a good actor and because there was a degree of woobiefication to his character. But he was a creep, and you can't redeem a character who acts like he did in the workplace.

He was unprofessional at almost every turn, even when dealing with men (because his unprofessionalism towards women was a constant, naturally). His levels of privilege were off the charts and he rarely had to suffer any consequences for his behaviour.

[susannah]

On 5/17/2021 at 12:20 AM, SadieT said:

Me too! Abby was one of my favorite characters and big reason why I watched the show. I think a lot of that has to do with Maura Tierney's own likability and talent. She's a great actress and people find her relatable. Same with Sam, the character was kind of a mess but Linda Cardellini is usually pretty good and likable in whatever role she's in. I think the writers knew what they had with the actresses and just decided to dump an unending amount of drama onto them because the actors could handle it and people tended to enjoy watching them. 

I liked Abby, even though she was a world of mess, because she was just trying to get through her life, and Maura Tierney was so good at playing her. I liked how Abby had to struggle to achieve her goals, and had some big struggles, but she made it, and DIDN'T think she was God's gift to medicine, as Benton, Carter, Sam, etc, did, and the Australian doctor who refused to teach medical students who he thought were, and told them publicly, that they were too stupid to teach. He had sex with some of the women, and why anyone would, I don't know, and then publicly told them they were even worse in bed than at the hospital. He made Romano look like Mary Poppins! 

I loathed Sam, who did think she was all that, and didn't have to comply with any rules, and I loathed even more her criminal son. Passing that loathing to superloathing for Sarah..a thousand burning suns! I liked Mark, Elizabeth, Luca, the nurses, Benton and Doug when they weren't being jerky.

The dynamic of race has been mentioned and I have to say that I agree with opinions about Cleo but Carla was anything but a strong black woman. She was a lying, cheating ho, who wanted only what she could get from men, and how she treated Peter was beyond horrible. I was so glad that she got killed, but then Roger had the gall to try to get custody of adorable Reese.

[susannah]

4 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

I can certainly understand that, and it was a difficult dilemma for a show, particularly at a time when any kind of interracial relationship on American television was seen as incredibly progressive.

The show mishandled Carla and turned her into a 'baby mama' stereotype, after she'd first been introduced as a smart, successful businesswoman (although the writers did redeem themselves by having her marry Roger and apparently be a settled, happy couple). I can see why Eriq La Salle felt pressure to not then tacitly say 'he needs a white woman to be respectable.'

They really could have done better than the Cleo Bot, though.

Romano seems to get a pass from some people because Paul McCrane is a good actor and because there was a degree of woobiefication to his character. But he was a creep, and you can't redeem a character who acts like he did in the workplace.

He was unprofessional at almost every turn, even when dealing with men (because his unprofessionalism towards women was a constant, naturally). His levels of privilege were off the charts and he rarely had to suffer any consequences for his behaviour.

I'm not sure what "woobiefication" is, but if it means being an absolute ***hat, I agree! I can't put my finger on what drove him. He was very gifted as a surgeon but he seemed to have endless, unreasonable hate for everyone, except for Elizabeth. The scene in which she tells him Mark's tumor is back, and he is so tender with her, is the ONLY time I saw the humanness in him, in all the years. He seemed to be equally loathsome with both men and women, and I don't understand that. Did he have extreme short man syndrome?

[Cloud9Shopper]

I am on the S3 episodes of the ER podcast I’m listening to, and my unpopular opinion of that era is that I enjoyed the Abby Keaton and Carter dynamic/fling. I’m pretty sure even teenage me knew they weren’t going to be long-term, but their shenanigans always make me smile and giggle a bit, especially when Benton busts them together in her office and Carter hides his face behind the book. 
 

Abby Keaton is my preferred Abby, though. She was also able to teach Benton some humility and be realistic about what he lacked. It’s a shame Glenne Headly passed on when she did, as she was a great actress too.  
 

I agree with the above posters about Sarah and Sam, although Sam at least had a couple decent moments in the show. I never cared about Sarah and Gates and that whole weird family dynamic with Sam and Alex. 
 

Good to see the Cleobot name lives on. 

Edited October 22, 2021 by Cloud9Shopper

[Bastet]

11 hours ago, susannah said:

but then Roger had the gall to try to get custody of adorable Reese.

What gall?  He'd been raising the child since he was born (oops, as pointed out below, I got the timing wrong - Roger had been raising him as far back as Reese would probably wind up remembering, but not back to birth) so it would have been quite shitty to just walk away because Carla died.  Neither Roger nor Peter had any biological rights, so a custody arrangement needed to be determined.  Family court standard is "best interests of the child" and what Peter initially wanted didn't meet that.  Thankfully for Reese, it eventually got worked out that way.

12 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

They really could have done better than the Cleo Bot, though.

Oh, yeah.  Cleo being wooden and only having chemistry with Reese is a separate issue, and an unfortunate one.

I liked Benton and Corday's relationship even after they split up, which was nice.  I love the moment when he comes into her office, she lies because she doesn't know what to say, he totally lets her get away with it because a) it's human nature and b) it's her, but within moments she admits she lied because she didn't know what to say.  And then, of course, his giddiness when she helps him.  I'm glad the respect and affection continued.

Edited October 22, 2021 by Bastet

[susannah]

1 hour ago, Bastet said:

What gall?  He'd been raising the child since he was born, so it would have been quite shitty to just walk away because Carla died.  Neither Roger nor Peter had any biological rights, so a custody arrangement needed to be determined.  Family court standard is "best interests of the child" and what Peter initially wanted didn't meet that.  Thankfully for Reese, it eventually got worked out that way.

I don't think Carla married Roger until later, because Reese was premature and in NICU for a while, and Peter was at his side every available minute. It was Peter who made sure that pregnant Carla had everything she needed, food, money, medicine etc, Peter who was at Reese's birth and by his side in the hospital. It was Peter who was there for Reese, trying to be the best father he could be, as well as supporting him. It was later that Carla married Roger and wanted to take Reese to live in Germany, and Peter got the court to stop it. Then Carla died, and naturally Peter thought that he would have custody of Reese, since he was his father, and Reese knew him as such. When it was found out that Carla had lied to Peter and he wasn't the bio father, it changed nothing for him. Roger had been married to Reese's mother for a couple of years but that didn't make him Reese's parent, and yes I do believe it took gall to try to get custody of the child Peter had been devoted to since before his birth. To say that he "had no biological rights" completely diminishes that. I think that what was best for Reese was to stay with his father, and to visit Roger if he wanted to. Peter even had to leave his job at the hospital and get one at a clinic, in order to be able to keep his son.

[Bastet]

Oops, you're right that I had the timing wrong; I'll fix that.  But Roger was every bit as much a father to Reese as Peter was, which is why Peter was never going to succeed in trying to deny him any custody rights.

[Rootbeer]

17 hours ago, susannah said:

IThe dynamic of race has been mentioned and I have to say that I agree with opinions about Cleo but Carla was anything but a strong black woman. She was a lying, cheating ho, who wanted only what she could get from men, and how she treated Peter was beyond horrible. I was so glad that she got killed, but then Roger had the gall to try to get custody of adorable Reese.

When Carla was first introduced, she was an attractive businesswoman, owning a successful restaurant.  She was flirty and funny and her character played nicely off of Benton's staid and serious persona.  Carla didn't need to get anything from men, she worked to get what she wanted for herself.  Unfortunately, starting with the unplanned pregnancy, the writers deconstructed Carla into an entirely different person.  It was really too bad, because, as she was first presented on the show, she and Benton could've been a successful happy black couple.  

I've often wondered if Lisa Nicole Carson's mental health problems and hospitalizations didn't lead to the writers making Carla unlikable since the actress' wasn't consistently available.  I wish they'd recast her, like they did Roger.

[Bastet]

56 minutes ago, Rootbeer said:

I've often wondered if Lisa Nicole Carson's mental health problems and hospitalizations didn't lead to the writers making Carla unlikable since the actress' wasn't consistently available.

I doubt it was the only reason, since the writers loved to reach for lazy, sexist writing to create conflict for - and prop up audience support for - a main character via a secondary character's actions (e.g. turning Jen into a cheater to distract from the fact Mark had been the biggest problem in the Greene marriage), but, yes, given the lack of understanding and accommodation of mental illness then - not that it's where it should be now, but it was even worse then - I will always believe that played a role.  They labeled the actor "difficult" - where, of course, misogynoir comes into play again, since it takes far less to dismiss women, particularly BIPOC women, that way - and took it out on the character.

[susannah]

7 hours ago, Bastet said:

Oops, you're right that I had the timing wrong; I'll fix that.  But Roger was every bit as much a father to Reese as Peter was, which is why Peter was never going to succeed in trying to deny him any custody rights.

I don't know why him being married to Reese's mother, for a couple of years, with no blood connection to the child, gave him any right to custody of any kind. Peter had been there for Reese since before his birth, was his father in every way that counted, and no one should have been able to contest that. The writers were so screwball sometimes, like when Susan fought her sister Chloe, the junkie who had abandoned her baby to Susan after stealing everything she could, and Susan was going to adopt her, and the judge gave Chloe custody.

[susannah]

1 hour ago, Rootbeer said:

When Carla was first introduced, she was an attractive businesswoman, owning a successful restaurant.  She was flirty and funny and her character played nicely off of Benton's staid and serious persona.  Carla didn't need to get anything from men, she worked to get what she wanted for herself.  Unfortunately, starting with the unplanned pregnancy, the writers deconstructed Carla into an entirely different person.  It was really too bad, because, as she was first presented on the show, she and Benton could've been a successful happy black couple.  

I've often wondered if Lisa Nicole Carson's mental health problems and hospitalizations didn't lead to the writers making Carla unlikable since the actress' wasn't consistently available.  I wish they'd recast her, like they did Roger.

I hadn't heard about LNC's problems and hospitalizations. You're right about the fact that if Carla had been a sane, responsible, loving person, she might have been a good partner for Peter. Never knew what he saw in Cleo.

[Bastet]

30 minutes ago, susannah said:

I don't know why him being married to Reese's mother, for a couple of years, with no blood connection to the child, gave him any right to custody of any kind. Peter had been there for Reese since before his birth, was his father in every way that counted, and no one should have been able to contest that. The writers were so screwball sometimes, like when Susan fought her sister Chloe, the junkie who had abandoned her baby to Susan after stealing everything she could, and Susan was going to adopt her, and the judge gave Chloe custody.

However you wish the storyline had played out instead - this being an opinion thread, and an unpopular one, so we're all here to vent our spleens - there was nothing "screwball" about how the writers resolved Reese's custody battle.

What they wound up with is what the overwhelming majority of real family courts (under the mandated "best interests of the child" standard) would have ordered -- neither Peter nor Roger had a biological parental right as a trump card (as Chloe did in the Little Susie example), and both had been a dad to him in every way that counted - with Roger spending more time with him than Peter did, since Carla had primary custody while she was alive - for most of his young life (and Reese's age is a factor; Roger wasn't a stepdad for two years to a teenager who'd prior to that only had one dad for 12+ years).

Edited October 23, 2021 by Bastet

[4evaQuez]

ER has been added to HBO Max, and this is my first time ever watching it. I remember this show was huge in the 90s, and I always wondered why. I took this opportunity to watch it. I've glanced at some unpopular opinions here, but not too many as I don't want to see too much ahead for me. I just finished watching the Season 4 finale.

Unpopular Opinions:

I like Dr. Kerry Weaver. I assume she's a character I'm not supposed to like since she mostly goes by the rules. As a former teacher, I loved the Dr. Weavers of the world. They are clear with expectations, consistent, and mostly fair when you can provide a justified argument for your motivations. I am often frustrated because the show makes it clear that Dr. Weaver is the much better leader than Mark. I have more on him later. She is often thrown under the bus by Mark, Doug, the hospital administration, etc.

I hate the blatant disrespect she gets. People are constantly interrupting her as she speaks. Walking away from her mid sentence. Going to Mark or even Doug to undermine her decisions. It'll be one thing if the show represented her as wrong, but it doesn't. The show often makes it clear that she's following hospital procedures, trying to stay within budget, consults with appropriate teams when necessary, and that she is clearly well organized and great at her job. She isn't the best with people, but management is about making tough decisions, which Mark often refuses to do. 

Which brings me to my next unpopular opinion, Mark is two faced. As much as it chagrins me to admit, I agreed with Doug in the Season 4 finale that Mark hides behind others and then resents them for making the decisions he's too afraid to make. I hate the Doug/Mark friendship, because I think it brings out Mark's worst tendencies. And without Susan, Mark best tendencies have no exploration. Mark is toothless, and he only is able to have a backbone with women, Weaver and Jennie, or men who are much shorter than he is. With any man that can look him eye level, he cowers before them. If I were Weaver, I would resent working with him.

Lastly, I truly, truly despise Doug Ross. I assume that I'm supposed to love him because he's played by George Clooney, and this would have been the height of his fame or pretty close to it. He has three modes and all are insufferable. Charming manipulator, judgmental jerk, or defiant subordinate. In the season 4 finale, he is rewarded for doing a procedure on an infant without medical consent, a procedure he's never done before, and he's using tax payer funded equipment to do so. Again, everyone sees him as a hero, when Dr. Weaver is correct. He should be fired and maybe even arrested. I agreed with Dr. Weaver's assessment of him in an episode I can't remember. He does not like women. If he can't charm them, then he vilifies them. I also think Clooney is a selfish actor in this role. He does not respond well to his scene partners, and I feel he often just comes off as egotistical. If ER was being aired today as a new show, I wonder if people would call out the obvious white, male privilege he benefits from. He is quickly becoming one of my least favorite characters in all of television.

I'm looking forward to watching the other seasons.

[Bastet]

59 minutes ago, 4evaQuez said:

I like Dr. Kerry Weaver.

You are not alone.  She's one of my favorites.

[Rootbeer]

1 hour ago, Bastet said:

You are not alone.  She's one of my favorites.

Definitely not alone in your opinions of Kerry and Mark in particular.  One thing the show was good at was showing nuance; no character was all good or all bad, at least in the early seasons.  Kerry had a lot of the tools to be an excellent administrator, but she wasn't perfect.  Mark was a good clinician and a gifted teacher, but his passivity was a major flaw.

The character of Doug hasn't worn well over time.  The charming rogue, the lovable guy who has issues with self control can no longer be considered heroic, though ER does it with Doug.  The privileged white guy vibe is no longer an excuse for bad behavior.

Especially in the first few seasons, the characters, although flawed, were rootable.  As seasons passed, it seemed like all of them did things that were hard to forgive and forget.  Mark killing the guy who threatened his family, Kerry covering up her role in the death of the alderman's partner and hanging Malucci and Chen out to dry over the Marfan's case was not so admirable.  And Doug, risking Carol's clinic and the hospital's status as a research facility for Ricky Abbott, was also not a good look.

[Heathen]

On 1/23/2022 at 1:57 PM, 4evaQuez said:

ER has been added to HBO Max, and this is my first time ever watching it. I remember this show was huge in the 90s, and I always wondered why. I took this opportunity to watch it. I've glanced at some unpopular opinions here, but not too many as I don't want to see too much ahead for me. I just finished watching the Season 4 finale.

Unpopular Opinions:

I like Dr. Kerry Weaver. I assume she's a character I'm not supposed to like since she mostly goes by the rules. As a former teacher, I loved the Dr. Weavers of the world. They are clear with expectations, consistent, and mostly fair when you can provide a justified argument for your motivations. I am often frustrated because the show makes it clear that Dr. Weaver is the much better leader than Mark. I have more on him later. She is often thrown under the bus by Mark, Doug, the hospital administration, etc.

I hate the blatant disrespect she gets. People are constantly interrupting her as she speaks. Walking away from her mid sentence. Going to Mark or even Doug to undermine her decisions. It'll be one thing if the show represented her as wrong, but it doesn't. The show often makes it clear that she's following hospital procedures, trying to stay within budget, consults with appropriate teams when necessary, and that she is clearly well organized and great at her job. She isn't the best with people, but management is about making tough decisions, which Mark often refuses to do. 

Which brings me to my next unpopular opinion, Mark is two faced. As much as it chagrins me to admit, I agreed with Doug in the Season 4 finale that Mark hides behind others and then resents them for making the decisions he's too afraid to make. I hate the Doug/Mark friendship, because I think it brings out Mark's worst tendencies. And without Susan, Mark best tendencies have no exploration. Mark is toothless, and he only is able to have a backbone with women, Weaver and Jennie, or men who are much shorter than he is. With any man that can look him eye level, he cowers before them. If I were Weaver, I would resent working with him.

Lastly, I truly, truly despise Doug Ross. I assume that I'm supposed to love him because he's played by George Clooney, and this would have been the height of his fame or pretty close to it. He has three modes and all are insufferable. Charming manipulator, judgmental jerk, or defiant subordinate. In the season 4 finale, he is rewarded for doing a procedure on an infant without medical consent, a procedure he's never done before, and he's using tax payer funded equipment to do so. Again, everyone sees him as a hero, when Dr. Weaver is correct. He should be fired and maybe even arrested. I agreed with Dr. Weaver's assessment of him in an episode I can't remember. He does not like women. If he can't charm them, then he vilifies them. I also think Clooney is a selfish actor in this role. He does not respond well to his scene partners, and I feel he often just comes off as egotistical. If ER was being aired today as a new show, I wonder if people would call out the obvious white, male privilege he benefits from. He is quickly becoming one of my least favorite characters in all of television.

I'm looking forward to watching the other seasons.

It's my opinion that Clooney is overrated as an actor, and it was never more clear than on ER. 

Your opinions of the other characters are spot on. 

[4evaQuez]

On 9/8/2018 at 8:40 PM, starri said:

I may have offered this one up already, but...

Extremely UO:  Rewatching the show, I found I didn't hate Lucy as much as I remembered.  I don't think her death was any great loss to the show, but watching the show after having been in her shoes, I think I understood her better.  I was really fortunate that almost all of the residents and attendings I worked with during med school were phenomenal, but there was one particular person who was so awful (and I was far from the only person to have issues with him/her, so I know it wasn't me), I had days when I was seriously rethinking my career choice.  I've used Carter's interactions with her (and with the students he had in S4) as examples of what not to do with my own students.

Plus, she was going to be a psychiatrist, and I have to give it up for the home team.

I just finished watching All in the Family.

I love Kellie Martin as an actress; I'm not certain how I feel about Lucy Knight. I don't think the show wrote for Martin's or Lucy's strengths. The show seemed to lose focus of who they wanted the character to be very early on, and the Ritalin "storyline" hardly seems worth mentioning. Season 5 started with the show obviously wanting to make her an important central character, but by the end of Season 5, it was obvious they weren't sure where to go with the character. By the time Season 6 rolls around, she's just barely getting C plots. I think All in the Family is one of the most dramatic episodes of the show I've watched so far, and Martin did a wonderful job. However, I also think it shows were the show dropped the ball with the character.

Lucy is woefully isolated as a character. The Domino Heart reveals this three episodes prior. After Lucy loses her patient, she literally has no one to have a heart to heart with to console her and give her a big moment. Dr. Kovac is the person Lucy must connect with. This is problematic as I'm not certain the two had ever shared a scene before. Lucy, in general, connects better with the new characters. I liked her interactions with Dr. Dave and Dr. Abby, but that again reveals Lucy's biggest issue. She has no anchor on the show. Carter was supposed to be that anchor, but when that failed in Season 5, the show never gave her a new one.

I'm disappointed that the show dangled a possible Dr. Weaver mentorship in the Season 6 premiere to only immediately take it away. Without it, Lucy meanders from one ineptitude to another. The show never gives her a big hero moment. Even the one hero moment she gets, her patient dies. As a result, it feels like I never get to see Lucy grow into the badass the character could have been. As I said earlier, they did not write for Lucy/Martin's strengths, and this is a byproduct of that. 

Lucy actually does well in one-on-one interactions with patients. I usually hate children on tv shows, but I did like Lucy's connection to that one kid in Season 5. Sadly, that ultimately went no where. Also, Martin never found the right balance for Lucy's personality. She never gives her the toughness of Doyle of Del Amico. Everyone bullies her and walks over her. She never truly gets her assertive voice. I actually think Carol could have been a good partner for Lucy to help her learn how to balance toughness/assertiveness with care/compassion. However, Carol usually doesn't like new people, and Lucy never showed the boldness Doyle displayed to demand respect from Carol. Carol seems oddly indifferent to Carter's attack in the episode, regardless of whatever emotions she has for Lucy.

Lastly, All in the Family, the only people who seem truly impacted are Dr. Romano and Dr. Weaver. It seemed appropriate for Dr. Romano to get the big moment after Lucy's death as some connection between the two was developed. I also believed Weaver's response. Corday's inclusion was odd as I couldn't remember if the two had ever interacted. Corday seems to not even know who she is at one point in the surgery. I wish Weaver could have been the one there; although, I understand why she wasn't. I also thought Chuney telling the people at Doc Magoos was empty as I could only think of one scene Lucy had with some of those characters or no significant scene she's had with them. I'm also pretty sure the story they shared was false. Again, an indication that the show had not given her big moments with characters, including Carter. Carter's moment also isn't as big as it should be, but at this point, it's obvious the actors' don't like each other. Carter gives the bare minimum.

I know Susan comes back next season. I actually wonder if Lucy would have had a better anchor if Susan were around. I think as a female doctor; Susan would have seen a lot of herself in Lucy. Susan could have given Lucy a lot of guidance regarding assertiveness. I actually wish CCH Pounder's character was around, too. Unfortunately for Lucy, they were not. So she just drowned in a sea of no one in particular caring about her.

All that being said, I thought Martin did a great job with her final episode. Even though I knew the outcome and was mostly indifferent to the character, I still found myself crying for her loss. With the cast becoming so huge this season, I do think death makes the Lucy character a lot more memorable than she actually was.

[Rootbeer]

43 minutes ago, 4evaQuez said:

I just finished watching All in the Family.

I love Kellie Martin as an actress; I'm not certain how I feel about Lucy Knight. I don't think the show wrote for Martin's or Lucy's strengths. The show seemed to lose focus of who they wanted the character to be very early on, and the Ritalin "storyline" hardly seems worth mentioning. Season 5 started with the show obviously wanting to make her an important central character, but by the end of Season 5, it was obvious they weren't sure where to go with the character. By the time Season 6 rolls around, she's just barely getting C plots. I think All in the Family is one of the most dramatic episodes of the show I've watched so far, and Martin did a wonderful job. However, I also think it shows were the show dropped the ball with the character.

Lucy is woefully isolated as a character. The Domino Heart reveals this three episodes prior. After Lucy loses her patient, she literally has no one to have a heart to heart with to console her and give her a big moment. Dr. Kovac is the person Lucy must connect with. This is problematic as I'm not certain the two had ever shared a scene before. Lucy, in general, connects better with the new characters. I liked her interactions with Dr. Dave and Dr. Abby, but that again reveals Lucy's biggest issue. She has no anchor on the show. Carter was supposed to be that anchor, but when that failed in Season 5, the show never gave her a new one.

I'm disappointed that the show dangled a possible Dr. Weaver mentorship in the Season 6 premiere to only immediately take it away. Without it, Lucy meanders from one ineptitude to another. The show never gives her a big hero moment. Even the one hero moment she gets, her patient dies. As a result, it feels like I never get to see Lucy grow into the badass the character could have been. As I said earlier, they did not write for Lucy/Martin's strengths, and this is a byproduct of that. 

Lucy actually does well in one-on-one interactions with patients. I usually hate children on tv shows, but I did like Lucy's connection to that one kid in Season 5. Sadly, that ultimately went no where. Also, Martin never found the right balance for Lucy's personality. She never gives her the toughness of Doyle of Del Amico. Everyone bullies her and walks over her. She never truly gets her assertive voice. I actually think Carol could have been a good partner for Lucy to help her learn how to balance toughness/assertiveness with care/compassion. However, Carol usually doesn't like new people, and Lucy never showed the boldness Doyle displayed to demand respect from Carol. Carol seems oddly indifferent to Carter's attack in the episode, regardless of whatever emotions she has for Lucy.

Lastly, All in the Family, the only people who seem truly impacted are Dr. Romano and Dr. Weaver. It seemed appropriate for Dr. Romano to get the big moment after Lucy's death as some connection between the two was developed. I also believed Weaver's response. Corday's inclusion was odd as I couldn't remember if the two had ever interacted. Corday seems to not even know who she is at one point in the surgery. I wish Weaver could have been the one there; although, I understand why she wasn't. I also thought Chuney telling the people at Doc Magoos was empty as I could only think of one scene Lucy had with some of those characters or no significant scene she's had with them. I'm also pretty sure the story they shared was false. Again, an indication that the show had not given her big moments with characters, including Carter. Carter's moment also isn't as big as it should be, but at this point, it's obvious the actors' don't like each other. Carter gives the bare minimum.

I know Susan comes back next season. I actually wonder if Lucy would have had a better anchor if Susan were around. I think as a female doctor; Susan would have seen a lot of herself in Lucy. Susan could have given Lucy a lot of guidance regarding assertiveness. I actually wish CCH Pounder's character was around, too. Unfortunately for Lucy, they were not. So she just drowned in a sea of no one in particular caring about her.

All that being said, I thought Martin did a great job with her final episode. Even though I knew the outcome and was mostly indifferent to the character, I still found myself crying for her loss. With the cast becoming so huge this season, I do think death makes the Lucy character a lot more memorable than she actually was.

 I think you're right about Lucy, the show tended to isolate her with Carter and she rarely had any ongoing storylines with other characters.  When Carter came on the show as the med student; we not only saw him with Benton as his primary mentor, he also worked with Mark and Susan a lot.  His crush on Susan was a sweet storyline for both of them.  His admiration for Mark and his ability to compare him to Benton as a teacher helped as did guest arcs that gave him other med students/interns to play off of like Chen, Dale and Gant. Lucy was never anchored well enough into the fabric of the show, she was painted into a tiny corner with virtually only Carter to connect her to the rest of the cast,  I think Kerry and/or Elizabeth would've been good choices to give Lucy secondary storylines.  Once it was obvious that Lucy and Carter was never going to happen, she was just too isolated to integrate back into the ensemble.

Martin's acting style really wasn't suited to the show, either and Lucy was just a bit too naive to be a medical student, too.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Rootbeer

[starri]

Watching the show again as an actual adult (instead of a nominal one), I actually revised my opinion on Mark a bit as well.  I started watching in the fourth season, when I was in college, and he'd already started to slide down with both the combo of how he was following being beaten and the regrettable Cynthia incident, and by the time the cancer story consumed so much of the narrative for two seasons, I was just done.  Having been through the adjustments of struggling with romantic relationships that occur while you're trying to navigate what it means to be the best doctor you can, at a broke county hospital without enough resources...I get him more.  And seeing the cancer story compressed in to a few days of binging, I found a lot of moments to like ("Orion in the Sky" made me cry, and "On the Beach"--which I'd actually skipped the first time it aired because I was just so fed up with the story--moved me, especially with Mark being able to admit to Rachel that, no matter how difficult a kid she was, he'd made mistakes with her).

One of the big regrets I have is that they never let Mark and Kerry be on the same page for more than a few episode at a time.  I actually thought they made a great team, balanced each others' flaws, and even had a similar sense of humor.

[Cloud9Shopper]

I like Kerry too. I think the show did a good job at times at showing how she is so often stuck in the middle between what the staff wants versus what she knows is best for the hospital, when she just has to go along with things, etc. 

I’ve been reliving S5 via podcast and it strikes me that Lucy didn’t seem to be as prominent in S5 as I thought she was. My other UO is that sometimes I think Carter’s behavior to her was justified, like when he called her out on lying about the IV/sent her home and when she talked to the patient’s wife when he never told her to do that. Lucy did come off as a bit of a know it all at times when she first came. 

[Claire85]

I think one of the reasons Lucy has staying power (by that I mean we’re still talking about her 22 years later) was her terrible end. We watched that episode and rooted for her and Carter to pull through. When I watched it live I’m not sure I knew that Kellie was leaving the show, so there was also suspense after the final scene the week before.

Rewatching with hindsight, I see what @4evaQuez means about Lucy having no anchor. She was shown more care when the staff was working to save her then they seemed to when she worked with them. 

[Cloud9Shopper]

Probably a big UO coming, but I think if Banfield had been introduced a season or two earlier in the series I would’ve ended up liking her character. Her backstory was complex and tragic, but not so much that it was swallowing the last season, and she and her husband seemed to have a well-functioning marriage with communication despite everything they were going through. Plus, I kind of enjoyed the way she sized up the new interns in S15, none of them who I ever cared about, especially three-inch heels in an ER Barbie and the one who washed her hair in the sink and showed up looking like she’d just rolled out of bed. 

I mean, given the choice I’d rather see more of Banfield than Gates or Brenner. 

 

 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Cloud9Shopper

[Heathen]

On 2/13/2022 at 7:57 AM, Cloud9Shopper said:

Probably a big UO coming, but I think if Banfield had been introduced a season or two earlier in the series I would’ve ended up liking her character. Her backstory was complex and tragic, but not so much that it was swallowing the last season, and she and her husband seemed to have a well-functioning marriage with communication despite everything they were going through. Plus, I kind of enjoyed the way she sized up the new interns in S15, none of them who I ever cared about, especially three-inch heels in an ER Barbie and the one who washed her hair in the sink and showed up looking like she’d just rolled out of bed. 

I mean, given the choice I’d rather see more of Banfield than Gates or Brenner. 

 

 

It would have been just fine with me if that helicopter had fallen on Gates. What a joke of a character. 

[Cloud9Shopper]

21 minutes ago, Heathen said:

It would have been just fine with me if that helicopter had fallen on Gates. What a joke of a character. 

He really did add nothing to the show. The most memorable thing about his character was when he had sex with Sam in the hospital and the footage ended up in Brenner’s conference presentation (or Morris’s; can’t remember which). 

I know by the time Gates came in S12 that the writers were starting to quit but his only purpose seemed to be to hook up with Sam and the annoying family thing with Sarah that no one cared about. 

[txhorns79]

On 1/26/2022 at 5:33 PM, Claire85 said:

She was shown more care when the staff was working to save her then they seemed to when she worked with them. 

I did appreciate they made the effort to build up her relationship with Romano in the episodes leading up to her death.  He was usually such a cartoonish villain of a character, but I appreciated that he seemed to give respect to Lucy in a way he rarely gave any respect to the female characters. 

[Hiyo]

UO: I liked Gates.

[Heathen]

18 hours ago, Hiyo said:

UO: I liked Gates.

Explain why? 

I didn't like his cocky attitude or the fact that he looked unwashed and dirty, and dressed inappropriately (I didn't like Ray for the same reasons). I didn't like the way Gates treated Meg or the way he came onto Neela the second he met her (my laptop autocorrected Neela to Veela, which might explain the way her character was written in later seasons). I didn't like the fact that his character was written so poorly that somehow he went from paramedic to intern to running trauma codes by himself in what seemed like a month. YMMV, of course. 

[Hiyo]

Quote

Explain why? 

No.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Hiyo

[Racj82]

I think Kerry is very complicated character. Early on, she got too much gruff. A lot of her ideas were great but her as the messenger was the problem. That voice. She gave major substitute teacher energy. Her tendency to drowl on and lecture. She also may have tried to implement too much at once. But, she didn't deserve all the hate she got. It's part of the reason why being the boss sucks. Mark never got as much grief but he also caught too much shit for making the right decisions as the boss.

Also, Kerry evolves into a much more difficult character to take as time goes on. Still great but also more and more deceitful and about her career. I think she  actually does become more well rounded after Mark's advice  never letting your work become your life.

On 2/15/2022 at 2:09 PM, Hiyo said:

No.

I was looking forward to a defense of Gates.

To me, he was just another in a long line brash/cocky doctors and I had worn tired of it on the show by then. If Pratt is as aggravated with your shit as he was, you know you have a problem.

[DrSpaceman73]

On 9/15/2020 at 3:49 PM, CrazyInAlabama said:

Watching the earlier years make me sad for what this show became later.    

I'm rewatching season one. I watched the first five seasons or so when first on. It really hasn't lost anything. 

Later seasons.....anyway

Watching now again though....Mark really was pretty shitty to his first wife jennifer. Ok I get he likes the er so the office jobbhe was offered....no. 

But the she gets a great job as a lawyer two hours away in Milwaukee and he has to even think about what to do?   He would just be transferring to an er residency to finish.  Plus it was a clerkship for her I assume short term a year or two then they can move back to Chicago and he probably ends up back at Cook County er.  It's a temporary move to save his marriage. 

In the end he does offer to go half heartedly and she tells him know he doesn't have to and he doesn't argue, the end. 

No wonder she left him. I still like him but man.....horrible move and it cost him his marriage. 

[Notabug]

1 hour ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

I'm rewatching season one. I watched the first five seasons or so when first on. It really hasn't lost anything. 

Later seasons.....anyway

Watching now again though....Mark really was pretty shitty to his first wife jennifer. Ok I get he likes the er so the office jobbhe was offered....no. 

But the she gets a great job as a lawyer two hours away in Milwaukee and he has to even think about what to do?   He would just be transferring to an er residency to finish.  Plus it was a clerkship for her I assume short term a year or two then they can move back to Chicago and he probably ends up back at Cook County er.  It's a temporary move to save his marriage. 

In the end he does offer to go half heartedly and she tells him know he doesn't have to and he doesn't argue, the end. 

No wonder she left him. I still like him but man.....horrible move and it cost him his marriage. 

There's also the fact that he did 4 years of med school at around 4 years of residency/chief residency while she took care of most household and childcare duties while also attending law school.  Presumably, his med school and residency were the reason they lived in Chicago; neither one was from there.  So, she sacrificed a lot for his career over a period of many years while he couldn't even leave Chicago for a year or two while she got to do a clerkship with a federal judge which is a huge honor and a great boost for her legal career.

Mark was indeed a crappy husband and, while I don't condone her affair; she had certainly already put up with a lot by that point.

[Bastet]

I hate that they made Jen a cheater to try and distract from all the ways in which the end of their marriage was Mark's fault.  It was her turn at long last to be the one whose career was prioritized, and this wasn't just any job, it was a federal clerkship.  That's a game changer.

[Cloud9Shopper]

I understood Jen’s point of view so much better once I reached adulthood, especially when she said she’d sacrificed a lot and done paralegal work when he was in med school. I also work in the legal field right now (non-attorney, though), so I know how competitive some of these jobs can get and you need to do everything you can to stand out starting in law school. 

A lot of characters on that show had a weird loyalty to County anyway. Like I know it was probably for casting reasons (don’t want to turn the crew over too much) but it’s mind blowing how so many of them were unwilling to even consider working somewhere with better resources, not to mention probably better pay and less chance of a risk (in the later seasons) of being blown up or shot at. 

[DrSpaceman73]

After 8 episodes in season one I suddenly realized what bothers me the most here. 

All these people are residents and there is not an attending physician in sight.....ever!  I mean Morganstern shows up every five episodes or so but I'm never clear if he is in charge of the er or the surgeons.  He is the only attending physician ever to appear. 

Doing dangerous procedures and literal life and death decisions and no attending physician in sight for any of them other than morganstern for I guess all of them?  

[Cloud9Shopper]

7 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

After 8 episodes in season one I suddenly realized what bothers me the most here. 

All these people are residents and there is not an attending physician in sight.....ever!  I mean Morganstern shows up every five episodes or so but I'm never clear if he is in charge of the er or the surgeons.  He is the only attending physician ever to appear. 

Doing dangerous procedures and literal life and death decisions and no attending physician in sight for any of them other than morganstern for I guess all of them?  

One of the things that does end up bugging me way down the road is that it feels like there’s no true leader in the hospital. Everyone is just running wild and doing whatever they want, one-upping each other in the unprofessional behavior department.

There will be some attendings/chiefs showing up soon, though, if I remember correctly, although some of them are from other departments.

My unpopular opinion is that I think the female department admins that eventually make their way on to the show get too much hate. I barely hear anyone complain Luka was not qualified to be the ER chief given his track record at that place and that he’d be supervising Abby, who he had a baby and a relationship with, but at least Kerry and Banfield (and Coburn in OB) were qualified for the job and not sleeping with their subordinates. But I guess since Luka is an attractive male, it’s OK that he gets to be the chief. 

[Notabug]

On 9/2/2022 at 4:06 PM, Cloud9Shopper said:

I understood Jen’s point of view so much better once I reached adulthood, especially when she said she’d sacrificed a lot and done paralegal work when he was in med school. I also work in the legal field right now (non-attorney, though), so I know how competitive some of these jobs can get and you need to do everything you can to stand out starting in law school. 

A lot of characters on that show had a weird loyalty to County anyway. Like I know it was probably for casting reasons (don’t want to turn the crew over too much) but it’s mind blowing how so many of them were unwilling to even consider working somewhere with better resources, not to mention probably better pay and less chance of a risk (in the later seasons) of being blown up or shot at. 

Yes, the show tried to make it seem completely unreasonable for Jen to expect that Mark make a sacrifice for the sake of her career after she'd made so many for him.  And, I've been to Milwaukee, they have a county hospital, there, too.  He could've found work in that setting there if it was so important to him.

BTW, the show propagated the myth of the county hospital.  I worked for the county hospital in my town for a couple of years and actually made about 25-30% MORE than I had in private practice in that part of town in the preceding years.  I was in the same office space, but the county hospital redecorated and bought us brand new furniture when they took over.  

Doctors and nurse do NOT make less money working for public hospitals.  They don't.  There are many, many people who make a career working at a public hospital because they LIKE it as a workplace. They also like getting public employees' retirement benefits because they are much better than social security.  I wish I'd stayed at my county job long enough to get vested.

County hospitals are not poorly equipped either.  Every hospital picks and chooses areas of specialization and there are top notch services offered at many county hospitals.  Mine has one of the top burn units in the country as well as spinal cord rehab services second to none.  

Mark was living in Susan's dumpy intern apartment because he was a loser.  He paid no alimony and his child support payments would've been reasonable, too.  In todays dollars, an ER doc with experience working full time would conservatively be making $300,000 a year or so,  Even in Chicago, he could've afforded a pretty nice place with that income.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Notabug

[DrSpaceman73]

Well mark was an intern when he started but yes after like two years would have made good money as an er attending. 

I'm confused where the hospital I supposed to be as well. I always thought it was south chicago by reference but then one shot they have mark and Doug together talking, one in scrubs and looks like they are by the river way up on whacker drive which would be no one near the south side. They wouldn't gave been near the hospital. 

[Hiyo]

I don't think anyone ever said either Kerry or Banfield were not qualified for the job.

The hospital's location was always inconsistent.

[Bastet]

5 hours ago, Notabug said:

BTW, the show propagated the myth of the county hospital.

Gods, yes.  I grew so tired of all the doctors crying poor when, even with student loans, they'd have been doing just fine, and especially with perpetuating the dangerously incorrect notion one receives lesser care at a county hospital (or, in this case, that one would receive lesser care if not for these heroes who sacrifice so much to practice there).  I live in L.A., where County/USC is an excellent hospital (and level one trauma center), but people think if they aren't taken to Cedars-Sinai they'll die.  It's prejudice against the area in which its located, and against the county designation.

[Notabug]

6 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

Well mark was an intern when he started but yes after like two years would have made good money as an er attending. 

I'm confused where the hospital I supposed to be as well. I always thought it was south chicago by reference but then one shot they have mark and Doug together talking, one in scrubs and looks like they are by the river way up on whacker drive which would be no one near the south side. They wouldn't gave been near the hospital. 

When the show began, Mark was in his last year of residency, Chief resident.  After that, he was an attending and could've easily afforded a nice house or condo.  For that matter, we saw the place they lived in while he was chief and Jen was presumably not working since she had just finished law school and taken the bar.  It was a perfectly nice house, might've been a two flat or three flat, houses divided into apartments, which are common in Chicago; but we even saw they had a backyard they could use.  Then, he gets divorced and cannot afford a decent apartment; his dying father ends up in a hospital bed in the living room.

[Danny Franks]

7 hours ago, Notabug said:

When the show began, Mark was in his last year of residency, Chief resident.  After that, he was an attending and could've easily afforded a nice house or condo.  For that matter, we saw the place they lived in while he was chief and Jen was presumably not working since she had just finished law school and taken the bar.  It was a perfectly nice house, might've been a two flat or three flat, houses divided into apartments, which are common in Chicago; but we even saw they had a backyard they could use.  Then, he gets divorced and cannot afford a decent apartment; his dying father ends up in a hospital bed in the living room.

I thought Mark staying in Susan's old apartment for so long was meant to signify that he was just so driven and work-oriented that he didn't stop to think about trivial things like his living conditions.

The show always makes the point that these people spent more time in the hospital than out of it, and so often didn't bother making any changes to improve their home lives.

The only subplots I can recall about finding places to live were Carter and his occasional apartment searches, Carol and her disastrous house and then Mark and Elizabeth buying a house together.

17 hours ago, Notabug said:

BTW, the show propagated the myth of the county hospital.  I worked for the county hospital in my town for a couple of years and actually made about 25-30% MORE than I had in private practice in that part of town in the preceding years.  I was in the same office space, but the county hospital redecorated and bought us brand new furniture when they took over.  

Doctors and nurse do NOT make less money working for public hospitals.  They don't.  There are many, many people who make a career working at a public hospital because they LIKE it as a workplace. They also like getting public employees' retirement benefits because they are much better than social security.  I wish I'd stayed at my county job long enough to get vested.

In season one Benton complains more than once about his salary. At one point he says he makes $23,000 a year as a surgical resident. That would apparently adjust to about $47,000 today. Which is low, considering the hours he works and the time he spent studying and training, but not shockingly low for someone two years into the job (though, obviously, the show might not have used an accurate figure). He usually complained more about his student loans, so I guess they took a big chunk of his salary.

Anna also complains about being broke, in season four, and her apartment is really gross. She seems to think that's the norm for doctors. But that was more about setting up a rich vs poor dynamic with Carter.

Later on, I remember them showing Luka as having quite a bit of money so he could indulge in his midlife crisis stuff - big loft apartment, Dodge Viper penis extension.

It did amuse me when the show would give us a look at some very middle class, private doctors' office with nice furniture and clean walls and friendly people, and tell us, 'this is awful! Imagine working somewhere like here, when your heart tells you that you should be a noble, crusading doctor, healing the poor and the hopeless!' 

[DrSpaceman73]

3 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

I thought Mark staying in Susan's old apartment for so long was meant to signify that he was just so driven and work-oriented that he didn't stop to think about trivial things like his living conditions.

The show always makes the point that these people spent more time in the hospital than out of it, and so often didn't bother making any changes to improve their home lives.

The only subplots I can recall about finding places to live were Carter and his occasional apartment searches, Carol and her disastrous house and then Mark and Elizabeth buying a house together.

In season one Benton complains more than once about his salary. At one point he says he makes $23,000 a year as a surgical resident. That would apparently adjust to about $47,000 today. Which is low, considering the hours he works and the time he spent studying and training, but not shockingly low for someone two years into the job (though, obviously, the show might not have used an accurate figure). He usually complained more about his student loans, so I guess they took a big chunk of his salary.

Anna also complains about being broke, in season four, and her apartment is really gross. She seems to think that's the norm for doctors. But that was more about setting up a rich vs poor dynamic with Carter.

Later on, I remember them showing Luka as having quite a bit of money so he could indulge in his midlife crisis stuff - big loft apartment, Dodge Viper penis extension.

It did amuse me when the show would give us a look at some very middle class, private doctors' office with nice furniture and clean walls and friendly people, and tell us, 'this is awful! Imagine working somewhere like here, when your heart tells you that you should be a noble, crusading doctor, healing the poor and the hopeless!' 

Early on they were all residents and wouldn't make much money. But as the years progressed the main characters would have all made a good living.  

Benton wasn't exagerrating about a residents salary. That would have been about right for the mid 90s as a year two resident. 

[CrazyInAlabama]

The residents, and fellows don't make a ton, but it's a decent salary.  Once they're attendings, or go into private practice, or teaching at a medical school, the salaries really go up.   

[Hiyo]

Kerry was making $200k when she left. Luka was making the same amount at that time as well.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Hiyo

[Hiyo]

Kerry left in January 2007, so that would translate into a little over $285k today.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Hiyo

[Notabug]

4 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

Early on they were all residents and wouldn't make much money. But as the years progressed the main characters would have all made a good living.  

Benton wasn't exagerrating about a residents salary. That would have been about right for the mid 90s as a year two resident. 

I think it was a little low.  I made $17,000 as an intern in 1982 and finished at around $22,000 in 1986.  ER came along about a decade after I finished, so I would expect Benton made more than that, but, still, not much.  BTW, when I signed the contract as an intern, I was delighted, feeling that that vast amount of money would finally launch me solidly into the middle class.  It did not.

I though Susan's apartment looked typical for a resident at the time.  Anna's was a little shabby, IMO, but, still, not completely out of the question.

The average first year resident makes about $58,000 these days.  Not bad, but not much considering the hours.

2 hours ago, Hiyo said:

Kerry left in January 2007, so that would translate into a little over $285k today.

I think that's in the ballpark for an experience ER doc, possibly a little more, like low $300's, but reasonable.  And, once again, doesn't explain why Mark was living in a hovel years after finishing his residency.  As an attending, even if he took extra shifts on weekends and holidays, he would not be spending more than maybe 60 hours a week in the ER.  He would've had plenty of time to find a nice place to live and enjoy it.  Most ER docs work 3 12 hour shifts a week.  That's it.  That's a lot of time off between shifts.