Untreatable: Unpopular Opinions

[DrSpaceman73]

52 minutes ago, Notabug said:

I think it was a little low.  I made $17,000 as an intern in 1982 and finished at around $22,000 in 1986.  ER came along about a decade after I finished, so I would expect Benton made more than that, but, still, not much.  BTW, when I signed the contract as an intern, I was delighted, feeling that that vast amount of money would finally launch me solidly into the middle class.  It did not.

I though Susan's apartment looked typical for a resident at the time.  Anna's was a little shabby, IMO, but, still, not completely out of the question.

The average first year resident makes about $58,000 these days.  Not bad, but not much considering the hours.

I think that's in the ballpark for an experience ER doc, possibly a little more, like low $300's, but reasonable.  And, once again, doesn't explain why Mark was living in a hovel years after finishing his residency.  As an attending, even if he took extra shifts on weekends and holidays, he would not be spending more than maybe 60 hours a week in the ER.  He would've had plenty of time to find a nice place to live and enjoy it.  Most ER docs work 3 12 hour shifts a week.  That's it.  That's a lot of time off between shifts.

I made 30 to 35k in residency from 1999 to 2003.  So it might be a little low for 1994 5 years before but probably only a 2-3k off at best. 

Yeah I read now it's about 60k for residents.  I looked it up because I have a 4th year student with me and he was asking what I made in residency. 

[Driad]

At least Mark's hovel was a counterpoint to the TV trope of characters living in enormous luxury apartments that they could not realistically afford.

[DrSpaceman73]

Wow Mark just keeps digging himself deeper in season one with Jennifer. Basically takes a job as an attending without telling Jennifer and then gets mad when she is upset and tells him she may be in Milwaukee another year.  

He really did just choose that job over his wife. Not just a job as an Ed doctor but a job as an Ed doctor at that hospital which seems to be all he wants. Nothing else.  

But hey at least they will finally have an attending physician in the ER next season!!

[Soobs]

I'm only on season 3 but here's my possibly unpopular opinion: Ansbaugh and Benton (and maybe Carol) are the only real professionals on this show. Everyone else is so dramatic and extra it's cringy at best and scary (because they seem so unfocused on their work) at worst.

Also, Carter needs to mind his own business and stop trying to bring Benton's emotional side out. Benton's personal life and feelings are literally none of anyone's business. Benton seriously could have gone to HR and complained of being harassed and he would have been right!

[Cloud9Shopper]

I agree with you on Anspaugh. I always felt the characters in the earlier seasons are more professional than in the later years. (It gets worse, if you can believe that, although since it seems like it’s your first watch I won’t give too many details.) 

[Danny Franks]

54 minutes ago, Soobs said:

I'm only on season 3 but here's my possibly unpopular opinion: Ansbaugh and Benton (and maybe Carol) are the only real professionals on this show. Everyone else is so dramatic and extra it's cringy at best and scary (because they seem so unfocused on their work) at worst.

Also, Carter needs to mind his own business and stop trying to bring Benton's emotional side out. Benton's personal life and feelings are literally none of anyone's business. Benton seriously could have gone to HR and complained of being harassed and he would have been right!

I mean, if everyone was professional and low drama, the show wouldn't have lasted very long. But I definitely wouldn't say Carol was professional, with the amount of time she spent talking about her relationships in front of patients and mooning over Doug.

I wish Anspaugh had been around more, and he has some really good moments in season three (one of which is where he does get over his unprofessional attitude to Carter and finally listen to him). But I wish even more that Michael Ironside's Dr. Swift had stuck around a lot longer.

[Hiyo]

Quote

But I wish even more that Michael Ironside's Dr. Swift had stuck around a lot longer.

And CCH Pounder's Dr. Hicks as well.

[Notabug]

7 hours ago, Hiyo said:

And CCH Pounder's Dr. Hicks as well.

Dr Hicks also was one of the more adult and professional providers on the show.  I know that the show needed to take dramatic license in order to keep the audience hooked, but a lot of the behavior we saw on the show would not have flown back then and certainly wouldn't now.

As good a pediatrician as Doug was, there are plenty of people just as good who don't come to work hungover and don't assault parents in the waiting room.  He would've been warned the first time and dismissed the second.  Hospitals do not mess around when it comes to physical assaults in the workplace.

The later years were even more egregious, IMO.  Luka sleeping with a med student was grounds for immediate dismissal.  Abby, as a resident, no less; bullying other physicians and patients to do things her way would've been warned and fired; not praised and glorified.

The show always seemed to want to make contrarian behavior look heroic.  In real life, the doc who bucks the system and goes against mainstream medical practice is not to be celebrated, but probably fired.  And, in the vast majority of cases, it is well-deserved.

[Cloud9Shopper]

1 hour ago, Notabug said:

Dr Hicks also was one of the more adult and professional providers on the show.  I know that the show needed to take dramatic license in order to keep the audience hooked, but a lot of the behavior we saw on the show would not have flown back then and certainly wouldn't now.

As good a pediatrician as Doug was, there are plenty of people just as good who don't come to work hungover and don't assault parents in the waiting room.  He would've been warned the first time and dismissed the second.  Hospitals do not mess around when it comes to physical assaults in the workplace.

The later years were even more egregious, IMO.  Luka sleeping with a med student was grounds for immediate dismissal.  Abby, as a resident, no less; bullying other physicians and patients to do things her way would've been warned and fired; not praised and glorified.

The show always seemed to want to make contrarian behavior look heroic.  In real life, the doc who bucks the system and goes against mainstream medical practice is not to be celebrated, but probably fired.  And, in the vast majority of cases, it is well-deserved.

I loved Hicks too! She was such a strong female leader and surgeon, something the show also lacked as time went on. The female characters went from the likes of Hicks, Carol, and Susan, and so forth to Neela and Abby who are emotionally fragile and melt under the slightest pressure. 

Don’t forget Abby being openly drunk at work (by her own admission even) while everyone just turned the other way or laughed it off because Mommyhood was too hard for her with Luka gone to take care of his sick father and no one should question her judgment ever. It always makes me mad that Sam is made the villain for asking her whether she was drunk on shift because “but her ex shot up the hospital!” I’m not a Sam fan either but let’s not act like she planned her own hostage taking and the shooting, and that situation doesn’t make it OK for Abby to work drunk. 

Luka also had that hookup with the patient’s mother in S9, caught by Susan (who was also one of the few adults in the hospital) who reamed him for it. 

[Soobs]

On 10/4/2022 at 12:13 PM, Danny Franks said:

I mean, if everyone was professional and low drama, the show wouldn't have lasted very long. But I definitely wouldn't say Carol was professional, with the amount of time she spent talking about her relationships in front of patients and mooning over Doug.

I wish Anspaugh had been around more, and he has some really good moments in season three (one of which is where he does get over his unprofessional attitude to Carter and finally listen to him). But I wish even more that Michael Ironside's Dr. Swift had stuck around a lot longer.

Yeah, Carol acted like a teenager especially in seasons 1 and 2. She grew up a bit after dating the EMT.

It would have been nice to have a few more serious, detached types to counter all the drama. The few serious characters are treated like they are dead inside/ robots when really that level of detachment that Benton has is what it takes to do that kind of hard work. Most medical professionals I've met act like him.

I liked Dr. Swift too and that character was too short lived. He didn't tip toe around anyone.

My mom was a huge fan of this show and I would watch it with her when I visited from college. Later when she had a serious illness I spent a lot time with her in the ER, sometimes watching ER. All the staff would come in to check on her and roll their eyes at it, lol!

[Cloud9Shopper]

22 minutes ago, Soobs said:

It would have been nice to have a few more serious, detached types to counter all the drama. The few serious characters are treated like they are dead inside/ robots when really that level of detachment that Benton has is what it takes to do that kind of hard work. Most medical professionals I've met act like him.

I liked Dr. Swift too and that character was too short lived. He didn't tip toe around anyone.

My mom was a huge fan of this show and I would watch it with her when I visited from college. Later when she had a serious illness I spent a lot time with her in the ER, sometimes watching ER. All the staff would come in to check on her and roll their eyes at it, lol!

My mom worked in an ER as a unit secretary when I was young and eventually went on to be an LPN. (Her time working in an ER even pre-dates the show.) She was up at my apartment a few months ago when I had on some episodes from S15 and she said she always loved how the show would portray ER doctors as knowing every area of medicine….they were orthopedists, cardiologists and OBs. (Seems to be a common medical show trope; I’ve noticed similar in New Amsterdam and The Resident.) That and how the staff would work on their own families. She did enjoy it overall, though, but was not a fan of Carol. 

I’m the only one in my family who bothered with a full rewatch though. My younger sister quit when the helicopter fell on Romano and had no desire to go back to it (she, like me, is not fond of Abby) and no one else in my family still cares enough to do a rewatch.

Gallant from S8-S12 was a professional, low-drama character I liked. The show needed him to balance out all the navel gazing and immaturity going on by then. 

[Soobs]

1 hour ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

My mom worked in an ER as a unit secretary when I was young and eventually went on to be an LPN. (Her time working in an ER even pre-dates the show.) She was up at my apartment a few months ago when I had on some episodes from S15 and she said she always loved how the show would portray ER doctors as knowing every area of medicine….they were orthopedists, cardiologists and OBs. (Seems to be a common medical show trope; I’ve noticed similar in New Amsterdam and The Resident.) That and how the staff would work on their own families. She did enjoy it overall, though, but was not a fan of Carol. 

I’m the only one in my family who bothered with a full rewatch though. My younger sister quit when the helicopter fell on Romano and had no desire to go back to it (she, like me, is not fond of Abby) and no one else in my family still cares enough to do a rewatch.

Gallant from S8-S12 was a professional, low-drama character I liked. The show needed him to balance out all the navel gazing and immaturity going on by then. 

I remember when the helicopter crash happened, it was A Must See TV type of thing. I can see how that would turn a lot of people off as a jump the shark moment.

When I see that actor, all I can think of is when he was on one of my favorite episodes of the X-Files playing an EMT who regrows his own head.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Soobs

[Hiyo]

Quote

The later years were even more egregious, IMO.  Luka sleeping with a med student was grounds for immediate dismissal. 

It happened long before Luka. Doug and Harper, Carter and Abby Keaton...

Plus you had Mark working while going through chemotherapy, which, no. Not sure most patients who had they known about it would be cool with it.

[Notabug]

12 hours ago, Hiyo said:

It happened long before Luka. Doug and Harper, Carter and Abby Keaton...

Plus you had Mark working while going through chemotherapy, which, no. Not sure most patients who had they known about it would be cool with it.

Nor would Mark's oncologist be on board with him wandering around a crowded ER being exposed to all sorts of people with infections.

ER always made the ER docs more skilled and knowledgeable than actual ER docs could possibly be.  They frequently did procedures that most ER docs would never attempt, even intubations and chest tubes are often handed off to specialists; no ER doc is doing an endoscopy to remove a foreign body from someone's gut or diagnose an ulcer.  They often argued with specialist attendings about the best options for care for patients with unusual problems, they frequently diagnosed stuff like Huntington's Disease, or various infants with genetic metabolic disorders or even did Pap smears and then assessed and offered treatment for those issues when 1.  ER docs have absolutely nothing in their training and work experience to make them experts in those clinical areas and 2. Genetic testing takes weeks to come back from the lab; it isn't done as a stat by the regular hospital lab in the middle of the night.  Pathology on biopsies takes days to be read and a final report issued and 3.  It is really irresponsible, bordering on negligent, for any doctor to give a patient a life-altering diagnosis shortly after meeting them without ordering the appropriate testing after ruling out lesser issues that might cause similar symptoms.  You don't tell a guy in the ER he has Huntington's disease when there are at least a dozen other possible benign explanations for his symptoms that need to be ruled out, not to mention the genetic testing that needs to be done.

ER also compressed time a lot in the ER so we'd see a patient get wheeled in, get intubated and a line thrown, arrest and get CPR and get busted with the paddles and then one of the ER docs crack the chest, all in less than 5 minutes as they frantically moved from procedure to procedure.  In real life, anyone working at that maniacal pace would get drug screened for amphetamines and coke and then told to cut back on the caffeine.  Each intervention takes time, not only to decide to do it, get all the pieces needed to do it, complete the intervention and then give it a few minutes at minimum to see if it worked. 

Speaking of traumas and CPR, ER showed a disproportionate number of young, otherwise healthy people getting injured and then arresting and needing CPR.  Far more likely the victim who arrests is older and with comorbidities.  Even more likely, the vast majority of people who end up arresting in the ER are NOT trauma patients but instead elderly people with serious medical conditions including histories of cancer, strokes or heart attacks.  Because of that CPR in real life is nowhere near as successful as it is in ER.  In real life, only about 10% of those who get CPR survive to discharge and about 20% of those have significant neurologic impairment due to lack of oxygen during the arrest.

Back during my residency and even in the early years of ER, cracking a chest in the ER was a peri-mortem event to be performed only in the very most specific circumstances because it almost never worked except in very specific-and rare- sets of circumstances and only after every other possible intervention had failed.  I once saw the Chief of Surgery at an M&M conference ream out a senior resident for 'mutilation of a corpse' for cracking the chest on a guy who was very obviously well beyond saving.  The idea was it was a cowboy move and being a cowboy and showing off was not considered to be good medicine or appropriate behavior.

One thing ER generally got right was the personalities of the docs.  Doug Ross was a pediatrician.  His voice, his demeanor; all very peds.  Benton was a surgeon, no way he didn't want that kind of power and skill.  He wasn't one for words.  'The only way to heal is with cold blue steel' was his mantra.  Mark wasn't so much an ER doc as a family practitioner; but, since he kinda functioned more as a family doc than an ER doc within the parameters of the show, it fit the script.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Notabug

[Danny Franks]

12 hours ago, Hiyo said:

It happened long before Luka. Doug and Harper, Carter and Abby Keaton...

Plus you had Mark working while going through chemotherapy, which, no. Not sure most patients who had they known about it would be cool with it.

Carter was a doctor by the time he had his affair with Keaton. But definitely still her subordinate and the power imbalance would have allowed her to have a significant impact on his career.

It's interesting, and not that surprising, that the subordinate man and boss woman dynamic was played as romantic while the subordinate woman and boss man affairs were seen as shameful and sordid (and usually a sign of the older man's personal issues).

Rewatching season one and two, the romance between Benton and Jeanie is such a misfire, and handled really badly. He's an unmitigated arsehole to her and everyone else, but a couple of glimpses at the sad little boy who's scared for his mother are apparently enough for Jeanie to jump into bed with him.

Then, once they're involved, Benton barely seems to give a shit about her situation as a married woman, or about her as a person. Jeanie must have been really pissed at Al's philandering, to go for Benton.

10 minutes ago, Notabug said:

One thing ER generally got right was the personalities of the docs.  Doug Ross was a pediatrician.  His voice, his demeanor; all very peds.  Benton was a surgeon, no way he didn't want that kind of power and skill.  He wasn't one for words.  'The only way to heal is with cold blue steel' was his mantra.  Mark wasn't so much an ER doc as a family practitioner; but, since he kinda functioned more as a family doc than an ER doc within the parameters of the show, it fit the script.

I would guess that most of the original characters were based heavily on people Michael Crichton knew when he was an intern, which is why they seem true to the stereotypes. Meanwhile, I reckon Mark was Crichton's own idealised vision of what an ER doctor should be - smart, empathetic, hardworking and noble - which is why he's so often too good to be true.

[Notabug]

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

Carter was a doctor by the time he had his affair with Keaton. But definitely still her subordinate and the power imbalance would have allowed her to have a significant impact on his career.

It's interesting, and not that surprising, that the subordinate man and boss woman dynamic was played as romantic while the subordinate woman and boss man affairs were seen as shameful and sordid (and usually a sign of the older man's personal issues).

Rewatching season one and two, the romance between Benton and Jeanie is such a misfire, and handled really badly. He's an unmitigated arsehole to her and everyone else, but a couple of glimpses at the sad little boy who's scared for his mother are apparently enough for Jeanie to jump into bed with him.

Then, once they're involved, Benton barely seems to give a shit about her situation as a married woman, or about her as a person. Jeanie must have been really pissed at Al's philandering, to go for Benton.

I would guess that most of the original characters were based heavily on people Michael Crichton knew when he was an intern, which is why they seem true to the stereotypes. Meanwhile, I reckon Mark was Crichton's own idealised vision of what an ER doctor should be - smart, empathetic, hardworking and noble - which is why he's so often too good to be true.

Benton and Jeannie kinda came out of nowhere for me.  Yes, she helped care for his mother and did a great job, for which he was very grateful; but other than that and their medical careers, they had virtually nothing in common.  He was also very callous about her concerns about Al finding out about them.  The affair seemed really out of character for both of them, IMO.  I don't think either one was terribly likely to be involved in an extramarital affair and there wasn't any major connection between them other than Benton's mom.

Carter was an intern when Abby Keaton bedded him.  Despite his insistence that it was ok because Benton was his boss which made her his boss' boss; it was unethical and plain old wrong for her, as an attending in the same department where he was a resident, to have a physical relationship with him.  The few times I've ever encountered a resident involved with an attending, it was a relationship that started when both were med students or residents and one was a year or two ahead of the other.  Even then, they went out of their way to avoid working together, to not cause even the slightest rumor that anyone was being treated unfairly because of the relationship.  Had he wanted to, Benton could've gone to the higher ups and rightfully complained and Keaton would've been disciplined, possibly fired.  She most certainly would no longer be Benton's supervising physician, nor Carter's.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Notabug

[WendyCR72]

Even with the issues above, Glenne Headley's Abby was the only Abby I liked. A shame she died so damned young. Hard to believe it has been 5 years already. (Headley died in 2017.)

[Cloud9Shopper]

1 hour ago, WendyCR72 said:

Even with the issues above, Glenne Headley's Abby was the only Abby I liked. A shame she died so damned young. Hard to believe it has been 5 years already. (Headley died in 2017.)

I agree. She seemed like a great doctor, very caring, and knew what made a good pediatric specialist. And she seemed like a lot of fun too. 

[Hiyo]

Quote

Benton was a surgeon, no way he didn't want that kind of power and skill.  He wasn't one for words.  'The only way to heal is with cold blue steel' was his mantra. 

In the pilot he also referred to the non-surgeons in the ER as pill pushers, or something to that effect.

[Bastet]

12 hours ago, Hiyo said:

In the pilot he also referred to the non-surgeons in the ER as pill pushers, or something to that effect.

Yeah, it's in his tour of the ER:

Quote

All along here you have the medical examining rooms.  This is where the pill pushers kill their victims.

But this.  This is the surgical room.  This is where the real action is.

[Notabug]

18 hours ago, Hiyo said:

In the pilot he also referred to the non-surgeons in the ER as pill pushers, or something to that effect.

When I was a resident, we referred to the Internal Medicine residents as fleas.  Because internists, like fleas, are the last to leave a dying body.  That and they travel in packs on rounds and 'swarm' around the patients.  

Especially in teaching hospitals, there is a certain competitiveness between the surgical and non-surgical specialties.  So, it seemed very realistic to hear Benton putting down the non-surgical docs.

Edited October 8, 2022 by Notabug

[Cloud9Shopper]

The more I think about it, the more I think Sam deserves more sympathy for her difficult circumstances before she came on the show and some of the things that happened after. Not saying I totally love her now or anything but she did get pregnant very young and then have to deal with Alex going out of control when he was a teenager, she apparently grew up in a family of alcoholics and then she becomes a victim of her ex at the end of S12/start of 13. It’s kind of sad how she’s totally ignored but Abby gets multiple free passes and coddling because her childhood was bad and she’s a drunk.

I also don’t have a problem with how Sam treated Abby after rehab. Abby hadn’t deserved or earned forgiveness or trust no matter how “brave” she was pretending to be. Why should Sam fall at her feet and worship her when she may be understandably wary of Abby’s “I’m so redeemed; please like me” act after growing up around alcoholics and seeing her drunk at work? And the fact that she takes all the blame for Abby’s hysterectomy is weird too, as if she planned her own kidnapping and was the one shooting everybody in a twisted plot to kill the Luby baby. Abby should be taking just as much shit for her attitude in Bloodline and her disregard for her baby’s life so she could have everything she wanted like she was on a luxury cruise ship. Thank God she couldn’t have more children, honestly after her massive tantrum.

I don’t have an issue with Sam as much anymore once she’s going back to school and is clearly working hard and trying to get on a better career track.  

[Notabug]

6 minutes ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

The more I think about it, the more I think Sam deserves more sympathy for her difficult circumstances before she came on the show and some of the things that happened after. Not saying I totally love her now or anything but she did get pregnant very young and then have to deal with Alex going out of control when he was a teenager, she apparently grew up in a family of alcoholics and then she becomes a victim of her ex at the end of S12/start of 13. It’s kind of sad how she’s totally ignored but Abby gets multiple free passes and coddling because her childhood was bad and she’s a drunk.

I also don’t have a problem with how Sam treated Abby after rehab. Abby hadn’t deserved or earned forgiveness or trust no matter how “brave” she was pretending to be. Why should Sam fall at her feet and worship her when she may be understandably wary of Abby’s “I’m so redeemed; please like me” act after growing up around alcoholics and seeing her drunk at work? And the fact that she takes all the blame for Abby’s hysterectomy is weird too, as if she planned her own kidnapping and was the one shooting everybody in a twisted plot to kill the Luby baby. Abby should be taking just as much shit for her attitude in Bloodline and her disregard for her baby’s life so she could have everything she wanted like she was on a luxury cruise ship. Thank God she couldn’t have more children, honestly after her massive tantrum.

I don’t have an issue with Sam as much anymore once she’s going back to school and is clearly working hard and trying to get on a better career track.  

You make some very good points.  I suppose it was, at least in part, due to the writing of the characters as well as the actor's portrayals; but there was a double standard.  By the time Abby appeared on the show, she had been an adult for a couple of decades; yet, everyone was so concerned about poor, sad Abby and her terrible childhood; acting like it was fine for her to wallow in it and make no effort to get past it.

  We saw Sam getting the stink eye from her coworkers for daring to ask Abby if she'd ever been drinking at work.  Sam already knew the answer because she worked with her; but. as part of her 12 steps, Abby was supposed to honestly admit her mistakes and apologize.  Aside from patient lives, she risked her coworkers' jobs and their own emotional well being when she worked while drunk.  Sam was not wrong for asking about it during a meeting that was supposed to be about Abby's alcoholism and treatment.