Untreatable: Unpopular Opinions

[CrazyInAlabama]

Watching the earlier years make me sad for what this show became later.    

[Tallulah7606]

On 9/15/2020 at 6:55 PM, RedbirdNelly said:

Pratt does mature and get better. Enough that I cried when he died. 

Same! I never once warmed to him though because his arrogance was actually sickening, but I still found it horribly sad when he died. I think it was in part because of how everyone else reacted, I’m a bit of a sucker for a sad scene. 
Though it was nowhere near as sad as when Mark Greene died. That was like losing Goose all over again 😭

[RedbirdNelly]

On 9/16/2020 at 2:44 PM, Tallulah7606 said:

Same! I never once warmed to him though because his arrogance was actually sickening, but I still found it horribly sad when he died. I think it was in part because of how everyone else reacted, I’m a bit of a sucker for a sad scene. 
Though it was nowhere near as sad as when Mark Greene died. That was like losing Goose all over again 😭

very true

I think part of the reason Pratt got to me was the scene where they think he is stabilized but realize things are going south--and because he is a doctor, he recognizes it too. He's scared. They care for him and everyone wants to save him but can't. The look of fear in his eyes got to me. At this point in the show, I didn't think I could be moved to tears with a character death but that one got me.

[readster]

23 hours ago, RedbirdNelly said:

very true

I think part of the reason Pratt got to me was the scene where they think he is stabilized but realize things are going south--and because he is a doctor, he recognizes it too. He's scared. They care for him and everyone wants to save him but can't. The look of fear in his eyes got to me. At this point in the show, I didn't think I could be moved to tears with a character death but that one got me.

Especially when he is going up the elevator and everyone realizes that's it. It's so heart breaking. 

[Bastet]

On 9/15/2020 at 1:30 AM, Danny Franks said:

I stopped watching the show when Carter left (and only sporadically watched episodes from the final season he was in) - it wasn't the same show any more - and don't recall Pratt ever getting any better.

He had one nice moment where he finally got over himself, stopped pontificating, shut the hell up, and helped Chen end her father's misery.

[readster]

18 hours ago, Bastet said:

He had one nice moment where he finally got over himself, stopped pontificating, shut the hell up, and helped Chen end her father's misery.

I think that also went along the ways of Tighe getting tired of where his character was going. I do remember at one point he told the writers: "Can't we give the guy a break for once." Though Pratt dying was the Tighe leaving the show himself. I know Grimms got sick who his character. Especially talking to him an Epilepsy fundraiser in person, he said he was really displeased after doing Band of Brothers and was excited when he got the part of ER as Morris and then "hated" what they planned on doing with him. Even saying at one point he wished they would have done his pot smoking situation that got Ramano killed exposed and he had to seek rehab or lose his license. Something that never got page one. 

  Thought he said he was happy where Morris eventually ended up and how his and Pratt's relationship evolved from: "Man he is a screw up." To: "He's my Best friend." 

[Tallulah7606]

On 9/19/2020 at 8:15 PM, Bastet said:

He had one nice moment where he finally got over himself, stopped pontificating, shut the hell up, and helped Chen end her father's misery.

Yes 😂 this was hugely redeeming of Pratt’s character, but then he got back to the hospital and he put the chip back on his shoulder. Also, for about 4 minutes after he came back from Darfur he was moderately humbled by the experience 

[Hava]

Carol and Doug just don't do it for me as a couple. I liked them each separately as characters, but together it was just too saccharine. 

I guess my unpopular opinion is that I liked Carol and Shep together. 

[RedbirdNelly]

I liked Carol and Shep as well--until they decided to make him a jerk. 

[Hava]

I LOVED the Africa storyline and Carter/Kem. I really liked that the show explored health crises in other parts of the world--they didn't do it in the most subtle way, but it was still a welcome recognition that Chicago was not the whole of the universe. I thought the actors in small parts were superb, especially Angelique. 

And what can I say? I am sucker for hot doctors who do non-profit work abroad, so I was always going to swoon at Dr. Carter doing it. And I totally got his relationship with Kem. She was passionate about her work and her country and had a perspective that he hadn't really seen before--he had always been committed to saving one life at a time, and she was trying to do something on systematic scale. But she wasn't miserable (at least before the daeth of Joshua)--she had her mission, but she also knew how to enjoy life. 

I am not sure I understand the show's decision to end their relationship in limbo. It had been years since Joshua's death and Carter and Kem should have been able to reach some sort of understanding by then--either to stay together or part. The finale did a disservice to Kem's character and made her look like an asshole for no real reason. 

[CrazyInAlabama]

I think another turning point for Carter and Kem was when he flew to Paris when her mother was sick, and even Kem's mother thought Carter was being a fool for coming to Paris.   It was obvious that Kem had the boyfriend, and Carter refused to accept that. 

Also, Carter didn't just choose County and Chicago over Kem, it was the Carter clinic named after the son too, and that would have needed Carter to be there, at least part time.   

Edited October 18, 2020 by CrazyInAlabama

[WendyCR72]

1 minute ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

I think another turning point for Carter and Kem was when he flew to Paris when her mother was sick, and even Kem's mother thought Carter was being a fool for coming to Paris.   It was obvious that Kem had the boyfriend, and Carter refused to accept that. 

Yeah. A part of me thinks Carter tried to salvage what was not salvageable where Kem was concerned is maybe he didn't want to be like his own parents' marriage after his own brother died, when it clearly broke down. But I think - at the end - we were supposed to infer that Carter chose County over Kem, which was more than fine with me.

His job fulfilled him and made him happy. It did what Kem didn't.

[Hava]

Quote

I think another turning point for Carter and Kem was when he flew to Paris when her mother was sick, and even Kem's mother thought Carter was being a fool for coming to Paris.   It was obvious that Kem had the boyfriend, and Carter refused to accept that. 

Interesting. I got the complete opposite from Kem's mom--I thought she said the supposed boyfriend was a fool and was encouraging Carter to not let go of Kem, and that's why he ran through the rain to declare his love.

And I honestly don't like the idea that Carter chose County over Kem. At the end of the day, County is just a place--it's an ER that will go through numerous staff changes and will always be there. I never got the sense that Carter was passionate about County specifically, but about being a doctor. I hope he called Kem.

[readster]

12 hours ago, Hava said:

Interesting. I got the complete opposite from Kem's mom--I thought she said the supposed boyfriend was a fool and was encouraging Carter to not let go of Kem, and that's why he ran through the rain to declare his love.

And I honestly don't like the idea that Carter chose County over Kem. At the end of the day, County is just a place--it's an ER that will go through numerous staff changes and will always be there. I never got the sense that Carter was passionate about County specifically, but about being a doctor. I hope he called Kem.

Honestly, Kem could go disappear in the fog and the only person that would miss her would be her mother. The character started off cliche and ended just as bad. I do feel bad for Newton, she tried. 

[ch1]

12 hours ago, Hava said:

Interesting. I got the complete opposite from Kem's mom--I thought she said the supposed boyfriend was a fool and was encouraging Carter to not let go of Kem, and that's why he ran through the rain to declare his love.

And I honestly don't like the idea that Carter chose County over Kem. At the end of the day, County is just a place--it's an ER that will go through numerous staff changes and will always be there. I never got the sense that Carter was passionate about County specifically, but about being a doctor. I hope he called Kem.

My ending for Carter is that he stayed at county, called Susan and let Kem go.  Carter was living his own version of his parents’ marriage with her.  Kem like his mother was not able to get over her child’s death and considering their child died in season 10 - she was never going to, at least not with Carter in her life.

[readster]

33 minutes ago, ch1 said:

My ending for Carter is that he stayed at county, called Susan and let Kem go.  Carter was living his own version of his parents’ marriage with her.  Kem like his mother was not able to get over her child’s death and considering their child died in season 10 - she was never going to, at least not with Carter in her life.

Pretty much. Losing a child is something that stays with you, but I think Carroll O'Conner said it best himself: "It's something you truly never get over, but if you let it dominate your life, that is no life to live." 

[Bastet]

20 hours ago, Hava said:

And I honestly don't like the idea that Carter chose County over Kem. At the end of the day, County is just a place--it's an ER that will go through numerous staff changes and will always be there. I never got the sense that Carter was passionate about County specifically, but about being a doctor. I hope he called Kem.

County was good for him, Kem wasn't.

Their protracted, stalled relationship never made any sense to me.  If she hadn't gotten pregnant and decided to have the baby, I don't think they'd have ever even seen each other again once his volunteer time was up - it was very much a "while we're here together [working to combat the HIV crisis, but we don't know how to properly use protection ourselves]" thing that had an expiration date.  Nothing wrong with that.

But she does opt to have the baby, so they try juggling the logistics, and then they deal with the trauma of a late-term still birth, so the relationship's shelf life is extended, but to still be in this bizarre limbo years later is just dumb.  They're not in love, they want different things out of life, they're just connected by past tragedy.  MOVE ON. 

[readster]

2 hours ago, Bastet said:

 

But she does opt to have the baby, so they try juggling the logistics, and then they deal with the trauma of a late-term still birth, so the relationship's shelf life is extended, but to still be in this bizarre limbo years later is just dumb.  They're not in love, they want different things out of life, they're just connected by past tragedy.  MOVE ON. 

Yep, I agree. I saw way too many people connected by a past tragedy that seem to keep them spinning. Or just one side. My parents had a tenant years ago who's ex trying to get money out of him. They both lost a child together and still had one through shared custody. He NEVER missed alimony or any child support. Yet, she: didn't work, constantly threw their dead child in his face and even talked about how her father who died as they divorced was still entangled and she "needed him" to clean it up. The ex's boyfriend finally told her to get over it, he had no stake in anything and he had tried to set up job interviews at his company for her. Yet her excuse was: "But we lost a baby together." Police got called on her  and arrested when she broke and entered my parents' duplex and she lost custody of their kid as a result. The boyfriend left her and she ended up moving in with a relative in Florida! 

Some people just can't move on, but at the same time, Carter and Kem had lives they were happy with professionally, their relationship just never ever, made any sense post Joshua. 

[WendyCR72]

12 hours ago, ch1 said:

My ending for Carter is that he stayed at county, called Susan and let Kem go.  Carter was living his own version of his parents’ marriage with her.  Kem like his mother was not able to get over her child’s death and considering their child died in season 10 - she was never going to, at least not with Carter in her life.

I like it!

Said this before, and I know Carter/Susan was not handled well when tried [even as I think it was intentional to make Abby look like a better prospect], but I found the line from Susan about dating younger men interesting, especially since not long after, we see her and Carter and Rachel merrily headed to County. Just made me wonder if we were supposed to infer that Susan/Carter tried again or whatever... I mean, Susan just could have said that she and Chuck were divorced and left it at that. Shrug.

I guess it was ambiguous enough to form our own ending for Carter, as you did, as an example.

And, as I said, I like your take.  🙂

[doodlebug]

11 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

I like it!

Said this before, and I know Carter/Susan was not handled well when tried [even as I think it was intentional to make Abby look like a better prospect], but I found the line from Susan about dating younger men interesting, especially since not long after, we see her and Carter and Rachel merrily headed to County. Just made me wonder if we were supposed to infer that Susan/Carter tried again or whatever... I mean, Susan just could have said that she and Chuck were divorced and left it at that. Shrug.

I guess it was ambiguous enough to form our own ending for Carter, as you did, as an example.

And, as I said, I like your take.  🙂

Also, by that point in time, the age difference between Carter and Susan was really irrelevant.  In the first season, Carter was just starting his clinical rotations which places him in the third year or medical school while Susan was a second year ER resident.  That means she was 3 years ahead of him, training wise, and, perhaps only 3 years older.  No big deal for a guy approaching 40 and a woman in her early 40's to get together.  The only thing was I always thought Carter would want to have some kids, and, while Susan's son would've been his stepson and he would've been a good stepfather; it is hard to think that Susan. at that point, would be willing and able to get pregnant and start again.

When they brought Susan back, they drained her of her wit and good nature.  Susan was a fun loving, lively woman who didn't let her family difficulties weigh her down.  She was spirited and had a 'can-do' attitude.  Major contrast with mopey Abby and I think TPTB rewrote Susan's personality so as not to reflect badly on their favorite.  Had the original Susan returned to County, Abby couldn't have stood the comparison.

[Danny Franks]

15 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

I like it!

Said this before, and I know Carter/Susan was not handled well when tried [even as I think it was intentional to make Abby look like a better prospect], but I found the line from Susan about dating younger men interesting, especially since not long after, we see her and Carter and Rachel merrily headed to County. Just made me wonder if we were supposed to infer that Susan/Carter tried again or whatever... I mean, Susan just could have said that she and Chuck were divorced and left it at that. Shrug.

I guess it was ambiguous enough to form our own ending for Carter, as you did, as an example.

And, as I said, I like your take.  🙂

The brief Susan/Carter flirtation in season one was actually interesting, then her clear affection for him and kind of older sister vibe was really very sweet. If she'd stuck around that could have developed nicely into something more, and would definitely fit Carter's interest in older women.

I never really saw any chemistry once she returned, though. She seemed so much older and more mature than him, even more than when he was a med student. Part of it was the writing, which was completely half-arsed when it came to them as a couple - the writers were obsessed with Abby and didn't want to present any real threat to her - and part of it was the way both actors played it. I don't think either of them felt the storyline was right for their characters, and we know Noah Wyle already called an audible and nixed the planned romance between Carter and Lucy so it seems like star power might have been interfering with the writing.

It seems like Sherry Stringfield came back without the writers ever having a plan for her. Just... 'here's Susan. She's back.'  I guess they knew that Anthony Edwards and Eric LaSalle were going to leave and felt like they needed to add more characters to fill the gap, but they could have at least figured out what to do with her.

 

[Bastet]

4 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

I never really saw any chemistry once she returned, though. She seemed so much older and more mature than him, even more than when he was a med student. Part of it was the writing, which was completely half-arsed when it came to them as a couple - the writers were obsessed with Abby and didn't want to present any real threat to her - and part of it was the way both actors played it. I don't think either of them felt the storyline was right for their characters, and we know Noah Wyle already called an audible and nixed the planned romance between Carter and Lucy so it seems like star power might have been interfering with the writing.

There were rumors Wyle was a real jackass to Stringfield when she returned, and unlike the rumors which were later confirmed about how Wyle treated Kellie Martin, as far as I know the actors have never spoken about that situation.  So if there was ill will off camera, that may be another reason why that Carter/Susan storyline was so awkwardly and poorly done.

[WendyCR72]

1 hour ago, Bastet said:

There were rumors Wyle was a real jackass to Stringfield when she returned, and unlike the rumors which were later confirmed about how Wyle treated Kellie Martin, as far as I know the actors have never spoken about that situation.  So if there was ill will off camera, that may be another reason why that Carter/Susan storyline was so awkwardly and poorly done.

I remember we discussed this before. Maybe it did happen, but the only place I read this was at one of those blind gossip sites. So, I take it with an abundance of caution, is all. Not to say it couldn't happen, as it did with Kellie Martin. Just saying, the messenger in this particular rumor is suspect to me.

[CrazyInAlabama]

What I hated about the Mark and Cynthia (Mariska Hargitay) relationship was that Mark just wanted someone to sleep with, and nothing more.  I liked when Cynthia finally figured that out and dumped him.     

I hated when the social worked pressured Chen to hold the son she was giving up for adoption.  She didn't want to, and she was pushed into it.  Then she was wavering in her decision, and that would have been the wrong thing to do to her son, and his adoptive parents.   

Then when Kem's baby was stillborn, she was pushed to see him, and touch him.   I know that's the idea that it's better for the parents, but if someone doesn't want to, then let them have a choice.   I think the doctor could have suggested it, but not pushed Kem to do it.    

I liked Jeannie's character too.   

Edited October 24, 2020 by CrazyInAlabama

[Hava]

I think this is an UO: Jeannie was one of my top 5 favorite characters (beginning after her relationship with Benton ended). I'm disappointed that she doesn't get the recognition as one of the original main characters since she had such a big role. She should have made an appearance in episode 15. 

[Pj3422]

Nice to know I’m probably not the only one yelling, “GET THERAPY!” at Kem.

[Danny Franks]

1 hour ago, Pj3422 said:

Nice to know I’m probably not the only one yelling, “GET THERAPY!” at Kem.

While you're at it, yell "GET A DIVORCE!" at Carter. What a miserable end for his character. Dead baby, cold and dying marriage and no kidneys.

[Heathen]

UO: I don't get the general dislike for Lucy Knight. Was she overly earnest and maybe a little irritating at times? Yes, but nowhere near the level of Abby or Luka or so many minor characters. 

[doodlebug]

15 hours ago, Heathen said:

UO: I don't get the general dislike for Lucy Knight. Was she overly earnest and maybe a little irritating at times? Yes, but nowhere near the level of Abby or Luka or so many minor characters. 

I think, initially anyway, it was because she was given so much screentime.  Also, season 4 ended with the audience not knowing what was going to happen with Carter and Anna DelAmico.  Was she going to stay in Chicago?  Or, was she going back to Philly with her drug abusing ex?  I know that I was interested in seeing this storyline play out.  But, then, after the season ended, we found out that Maria Bello, who had decent romantic chemistry with NW and who played a more interesting character than Lucy, IMO, was going to leave the show and the storyline would wrap up without her.  Instead, we got Lucy, a much less interesting character, who got an entire episode devoted to her, the season premiere, no less.  Add in that she and NW did not have romantic chemistry at all and that, unlike Anna, who was a straight shooter, honest, ethical  and outspoken; Lucy seemed bewildered, overwhelmed and tried to cover up her mistakes.  The fact that Kelly Martin seemed like a little girl when compared to the very adult Maria Bello didn't help either.

Lucy was just the wrong character at the wrong time on this show, IMO.

[Danny Franks]

14 hours ago, doodlebug said:

I think, initially anyway, it was because she was given so much screentime.  Also, season 4 ended with the audience not knowing what was going to happen with Carter and Anna DelAmico.  Was she going to stay in Chicago?  Or, was she going back to Philly with her drug abusing ex?  I know that I was interested in seeing this storyline play out.  But, then, after the season ended, we found out that Maria Bello, who had decent romantic chemistry with NW and who played a more interesting character than Lucy, IMO, was going to leave the show and the storyline would wrap up without her.  Instead, we got Lucy, a much less interesting character, who got an entire episode devoted to her, the season premiere, no less.  Add in that she and NW did not have romantic chemistry at all and that, unlike Anna, who was a straight shooter, honest, ethical  and outspoken; Lucy seemed bewildered, overwhelmed and tried to cover up her mistakes.  The fact that Kelly Martin seemed like a little girl when compared to the very adult Maria Bello didn't help either.

Lucy was just the wrong character at the wrong time on this show, IMO.

I agree with all of this, yet I still wouldn't say I particularly disliked Lucy. At least, not more than I disliked a whole raft of other characters the show added over the years - Malucci and Cleo were both much worse, and I will never have one second of time for Pratt.

The Del Amico conclusion frustrated and disappointed me immensely, because I really liked her character and really enjoyed the building relationship between her and Carter (I think the writers envisioned them being the new Doug and Carol, once Clooney inevitably left). To have the rug yanked out from under all of that with a single line from Carter, while Lucy looks understanding and sympathetic in a "this guy obviously liked Anna, and she hurt him by leaving" was very annoying.

Perhaps a different actress could have done better with the Lucy Knight character, but Kellie Martin was really on a hiding to nothing because they wanted her to be too many things at the same time - a naive medical student, a moral voice, a romantic foil, a plucky underdog - and none of it really worked. Especially not when she was pushed so hard as this new, exciting character in the season five opener.

Especially the romantic foil part because, as you point out, comparing her to Maria Bello was never going to work out in her favour. There was the occasional moment where she found a bit of chemistry with Noah Wyle - the scene where he's trying to discreetly check out her backside and the scene where they kissed - but he was obviously dead set against it, so it went nowhere.

[readster]

7 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

 

Perhaps a different actress could have done better with the Lucy Knight character, but Kellie Martin was really on a hiding to nothing because they wanted her to be too many things at the same time - a naive medical student, a moral voice, a romantic foil, a plucky underdog - and none of it really worked. Especially not when she was pushed so hard as this new, exciting character in the season five opener.

Especially the romantic foil part because, as you point out, comparing her to Maria Bello was never going to work out in her favour. There was the occasional moment where she found a bit of chemistry with Noah Wyle - the scene where he's trying to discreetly check out her backside and the scene where they kissed - but he was obviously dead set against it, so it went nowhere.

Right a lot of blame goes to Maria Bello and her manager under this: "Well, the show is still number 1, my character is popular and play it better, but movies!" As we know that has changed a lot as many actors now move back to TV and now streaming shows as it is more steady work. Back in the day, when you went movies, it meant your career really took off. Now... well you can see and I don't fault the writers over that situation, Maria left them in a bind, but what they tried to do with Lucy just didn't work off well. As you said, they tried to make her too many things. It didn't make her complex and compelling it made her look dumb and then to add in she had hyper tension and was still on that same medication as a woman in her mid 20s. Really rang false too. 

[Heathen]

15 minutes ago, readster said:

Right a lot of blame goes to Maria Bello and her manager under this: "Well, the show is still number 1, my character is popular and play it better, but movies!" As we know that has changed a lot as many actors now move back to TV and now streaming shows as it is more steady work. Back in the day, when you went movies, it meant your career really took off. Now... well you can see and I don't fault the writers over that situation, Maria left them in a bind, but what they tried to do with Lucy just didn't work off well. As you said, they tried to make her too many things. It didn't make her complex and compelling it made her look dumb and then to add in she had hyper tension and was still on that same medication as a woman in her mid 20s. Really rang false too. 

Do you mean ADD, not hypertension? It's entirely plausible that adults still take medication for ADD/ADHD. I wasn't even diagnosed until I was 32, and that happens a lot. 

[readster]

3 hours ago, Heathen said:

Do you mean ADD, not hypertension? It's entirely plausible that adults still take medication for ADD/ADHD. I wasn't even diagnosed until I was 32, and that happens a lot. 

True, and trust me I know adults who take it too, however they basically had Carter go: "But that's more of over active children." Instead of: "Why did they not just adjust it when you became an adult." It was another bs "layer" the writers kept giving Lucy.

[doodlebug]

4 hours ago, readster said:

True, and trust me I know adults who take it too, however they basically had Carter go: "But that's more of over active children." Instead of: "Why did they not just adjust it when you became an adult." It was another bs "layer" the writers kept giving Lucy.

Even back when ER was in production, plenty of adults were being treated for ADD with ritalin which made Carter look dumb for not knowing that.  He worked in the ER, saw all kinds of patients every day; Lucy cannot have been the first adult he ever met being treated for ADD or ADHD.  The fact that Lucy had a prescription for it from her specialist was reason enough for Carter to butt out of her medical care.

[readster]

16 hours ago, doodlebug said:

Even back when ER was in production, plenty of adults were being treated for ADD with ritalin which made Carter look dumb for not knowing that.  He worked in the ER, saw all kinds of patients every day; Lucy cannot have been the first adult he ever met being treated for ADD or ADHD.  The fact that Lucy had a prescription for it from her specialist was reason enough for Carter to butt out of her medical care.

Right and then she tried to go off it cold turkey. Doesn't work that way. Now you have shows where people try to do that and they end up losing their minds. 

[LizDC]

After rewatching the series a few times thanks to Pop, I have concluded that Sherry Stringfield is not an actress with a lot of range. She has the same tone of voice and wide-eyed expression no matter what that script calls for or emotion she needs to play. One exception was when Susan was frantically looking around her apartment for Little Susie’s toy - there she went with Over the Top.

[Dr.OO7]

On 12/11/2020 at 1:13 PM, doodlebug said:

Lucy was just the wrong character at the wrong time on this show, IMO.

Not necessarily the wrong time, as after five years, TPTB felt it was time to bring in a new medical student as part of the main cast, and it's often at this point in a show's run that a Cousin Oliver character is brought in.

The main problem is that she was shoved in our faces 24/7--"Here she is, now LIKE HER, DAMNIT!"--at the expense of the other characters--a BAD idea, especially after such an exciting season finale that had me very eager to see what would happen in the fall, only for all the cliffhanger plots to be resolved with a few throwaway lines. Then to cap it off, while she wasn't an especially bad character, she wasn't a good one either.

Ironically, she finally started to catch on in Season 6 (which actually makes perfect sense, as after a year's worth of rotations, she'd be far more experienced and less fumbling and bumbling than when she started), but by then it was too late and they nixed her.

On 12/12/2020 at 7:17 PM, doodlebug said:

The fact that Lucy had a prescription for it from her specialist was reason enough for Carter to butt out of her medical care.

Seriously. Carter, you are A doctor, not HER doctor. People prying into people's private business, especially their medical care, is a HUGE berserk button for me.

Then a year later, when Mark asks him what pain medication he's on--in front of two other people who also had no right to know--he snaps (truthfully, albeit), "That's between me and my doctor."

Funny how he forgot that when he was badgering Lucy.

Edited December 25, 2020 by Dr.OO7

[katha]

I think what also hurt the Lucy character was that she was constantly around Carter. And Carter was in many ways the same model, but executed much better: He started off as a bumbling, overeager med student, making a lot of rookie mistakes in the first seasons.

And even Carter at his worst, which he was in his treatment of Lucy, was just a much more interesting and layered character. So you had the constant unconscious comparison between the two presented and I think many viewers sensed that she was somehow not properly drawn as a character.

Edited December 26, 2020 by katha

[doodlebug]

20 hours ago, katha said:

I think what also hurt the Lucy character was that she was constantly around Carter. And Carter was in many ways the same model, but executed much better: He started off as a bumbling, overeager med student, making a lot of rookie mistakes in the first seasons.

And even Carter at his worst, which he was in his treatment of Lucy, was just a much more interesting and layered character. So you had the constant unconscious comparison between the two presented and I think many viewers sensed that she was somehow not properly drawn as a character.

I agree, she was a cartoon, not a multi-dimensional character and we never understood why she behaved the way she did.  With Carter, we saw the layers peeled away and we also saw his genuine concern and care for his patients.  Lucy didn't have the warmth that Carter did.  She advocated for her patients, but I always got the feeling that she did it more for herself than the patient.

[readster]

4 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

I agree, she was a cartoon, not a multi-dimensional character and we never understood why she behaved the way she did.  With Carter, we saw the layers peeled away and we also saw his genuine concern and care for his patients.  Lucy didn't have the warmth that Carter did.  She advocated for her patients, but I always got the feeling that she did it more for herself than the patient.

I agree and half the time, it was more like: "Well, I wish a doctor would have done this for me." "Then I wouldn't have been taking ADHD medicine into my 20s, my father wouldn't have left my mother and I." "I be smarter, ect." It just rang that Lucy was: "Poor me." Unlike Carter where there was a guy trying to be a good doctor, had a very uneasy time growing up and being constantly almost "forced" into a life style he didn't want. Lucy, Dr. Dave and Cleo were none of that. 

Speaking of Cleo that thing were suppose to be mad at was she was raised in an upper middle class family and one of her parents were white. That was the conflict, I just say: "So?"

[Danny Franks]

2 hours ago, readster said:

Unlike Carter where there was a guy trying to be a good doctor, had a very uneasy time growing up and being constantly almost "forced" into a life style he didn't want. Lucy, Dr. Dave and Cleo were none of that. 

I'll be honest, I remember nothing whatsoever about Dave or Cleo's backgrounds (other than Dave apparently went to a crappy medical school). I don't know if the writers ever developed them at all. With Lucy, we really only ever saw her in work and met her mother a couple of episodes after she died.

All three characters just didn't work and I feel like the writers realised that fairly early on, which is why they were never developed. Contrast them to Elizabeth and Luka, who were added in the season before and the season after those three, who were immediate successes because the writers spent time on showing us who they were outside the hospital.

[readster]

3 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

I'll be honest, I remember nothing whatsoever about Dave or Cleo's backgrounds (other than Dave apparently went to a crappy medical school). I don't know if the writers ever developed them at all. With Lucy, we really only ever saw her in work and met her mother a couple of episodes after she died.

All three characters just didn't work and I feel like the writers realised that fairly early on, which is why they were never developed. Contrast them to Elizabeth and Luka, who were added in the season before and the season after those three, who were immediate successes because the writers spent time on showing us who they were outside the hospital.

It also showed you just how much the writers were invested in the characters or if they were a "named" actor then. I mean Morris could have dropped off the face of the planet with how poorly written and conceived the character was until both Grimes and his manager said: "Get your shit together or we are leaving the show!" Unlike Abby or Sam who were pet characters because the writers were: "They are so awesome because you know, we think they are." Cleo had potential, but then turned into a mess. Lucy speaks for itself, but Dave... classic: "Here are the character show notes, we will just get to them when we can." "Uh oh... we can't write this character, well let's have him screw up and bang a person in an ambulance and have Weaver pissed, because you know, she can." 

[doodlebug]

4 hours ago, readster said:

It also showed you just how much the writers were invested in the characters or if they were a "named" actor then. I mean Morris could have dropped off the face of the planet with how poorly written and conceived the character was until both Grimes and his manager said: "Get your shit together or we are leaving the show!" Unlike Abby or Sam who were pet characters because the writers were: "They are so awesome because you know, we think they are." Cleo had potential, but then turned into a mess. Lucy speaks for itself, but Dave... classic: "Here are the character show notes, we will just get to them when we can." "Uh oh... we can't write this character, well let's have him screw up and bang a person in an ambulance and have Weaver pissed, because you know, she can." 

I do think that at least part of the failure of Cleo as a character was due to the limited abilities of the actress who played her.  Had Michael Michele been a more gifted actor, Cleo might've been more developed as a character.  I presume she was cast for her looks; they wanted an attractive black woman for the role and they certainly achieved that, but, once she came aboard, it was clear that she didn't have the chops to handle a bigger story.

[Danny Franks]

On 12/28/2020 at 2:10 AM, doodlebug said:

I do think that at least part of the failure of Cleo as a character was due to the limited abilities of the actress who played her.  Had Michael Michele been a more gifted actor, Cleo might've been more developed as a character.  I presume she was cast for her looks; they wanted an attractive black woman for the role and they certainly achieved that, but, once she came aboard, it was clear that she didn't have the chops to handle a bigger story.

Tyra Ferrell, who played Benton's rival, Dr. Langworthy, in season one, was a much better casting choice. She was also an attractive black woman, but she clearly had the acting chops and was a good foil for Benton. It's a shame she wasn't kept on the show for longer.

But man, Michael Michele was so wooden it was flat out unbelievable that she could ever be a paediatrician. Compare her manner to Doug's, or even Anna's, when they were with children and it was night and day. I can't believe they didn't find a better option than her in the casting process - a casting process that had been really good for the first few years of the show.

[doodlebug]

11 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Tyra Ferrell, who played Benton's rival, Dr. Langworthy, in season one, was a much better casting choice. She was also an attractive black woman, but she clearly had the acting chops and was a good foil for Benton. It's a shame she wasn't kept on the show for longer.

But man, Michael Michele was so wooden it was flat out unbelievable that she could ever be a paediatrician. Compare her manner to Doug's, or even Anna's, when they were with children and it was night and day. I can't believe they didn't find a better option than her in the casting process - a casting process that had been really good for the first few years of the show.

Langworthy would've been really interesting paired with Benton.  Had TPTB not taken early Carla who was flirty and funny and a successful business woman and turned her into a needy, whiny mess; she could've been good, too although Lisa Nicole Carson's mental health issues might've prevented her from staying on the show anyway.

[Heathen]

16 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Tyra Ferrell, who played Benton's rival, Dr. Langworthy, in season one, was a much better casting choice. She was also an attractive black woman, but she clearly had the acting chops and was a good foil for Benton. It's a shame she wasn't kept on the show for longer.

But man, Michael Michele was so wooden it was flat out unbelievable that she could ever be a paediatrician. Compare her manner to Doug's, or even Anna's, when they were with children and it was night and day. I can't believe they didn't find a better option than her in the casting process - a casting process that had been really good for the first few years of the show.

Michael Michele was so wooden it was flat out unbelievable that she was human. 

 

There, I fixed it for you! 

[readster]

14 hours ago, doodlebug said:

Langworthy would've been really interesting paired with Benton.  Had TPTB not taken early Carla who was flirty and funny and a successful business woman and turned her into a needy, whiny mess; she could've been good, too although Lisa Nicole Carson's mental health issues might've prevented her from staying on the show anyway.

It's very interesting how some of these actors had such mental health issues from ER to Save by the Bell. I applaud them through out what is a very busy and stressful schedule. Even cast and crew being very supportive and not revealing their health struggles during the time. 

[billt460]

I only wish I had a dollar for every time Benton said, "Come on people let's move!"

[Kenziemom06]

I guess one of my unpopular opinions is that I loved Pratt.  Yes, he was brash and arrogant at first, but by the time he's in the road rage accident with Chen and Elgin, he's starting to grow.  His interactions with his step brother, setting up the ill-advised church clinic, his relationship with Bettina, and his friendships with Neela, Abby, and Morris are some of the better parts of the last few seasons for me.

[Cloud9Shopper]

Currently on S14, and I have to say even after all these years I still don't get the Abby love. I just do not like her. I was kind of expecting to when I watched the show as an adult (compared to when I was a teenager during its heyday and didn't understand her family's issues or her alcoholism to a full extent), and I think she had some sweet moments, like as an OB nurse or supporting Kerry after Sandy's death. But overall, I'm just not into her character. I can empathize with how hard it must have been for her to deal with Joe when Luka was gone, but I can't say my adult self ships them like I did when I was younger. I just don't get what either Carter or Luka saw in Abby, and Carter was smart to get out of Dodge not long after her brother fell into Gamma's grave. I felt bad for Carter in that episode; Abby not so much. Watching that episode last year solidified it with me that I just...do not like her. I sort of wish she had stayed an OB nurse or become an OB and limited to guest appearances or a more supporting role rather than being shoved front and center. I'm in the middle of her relapse storyline and don't feel I'm going to come out on Team Abby at the end of it. 

I can certainly feel empathy with Abby that she's struggling so much with Joe while Luka is gone and I can see why she spiraled. But the love just isn't there. 

I also feel Elizabeth got a raw deal and could understand her agony. I liked her a lot and it was a bummer when her exit was just kind of like...well OK I'm leaving now. She was so strong-willed and a great surgeon (and had a great sense of humor) before she had to deal with Rachel being back and Mark's tumor. 

 

 

 

Edited April 1, 2021 by Cloud9Shopper