Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[Camera One]

I want to like Belle, so my only hope right now is that Rumple's harsh words will be impetus for her to get her own storyline and start her OWN life.  But of course, now, the baby ties her back to Rumple.  If they want to do Rumbelle again, wait until the final season when they can actually give Rumple a coherent character arc.  All this flip-flopping is a terrible disservice to the character of Belle, as well as Rumple.

 

I want her to meet Gaston and find out what Rumple did to her, and now she can make up her mind to move on for good.  Sadly, I doubt the Writers will do that.

Edited April 9, 2016 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

I want her to meet Gaston and find out what Rumple did to her, and now she can make up her mind to move on for good.  Sadly, I doubt the Writers will do that.

 

I'm sad to say that I think the whole purpose of Gaston is so that Belle finally acknowledges that this is how she likes her men, exactly like Rumple.

 

Belle's life has never really been her own if we consider her history. She went from her father's home to Rumple's where she was held in a cell before she became his maid, she was kidnapped by Regina and held against her will for more than 28 years. And this is a woman who waxes poetics about love.

 

The first mistake a woman makes is when she believes she can change a man or that he will change because of her. If that's what she believes, then he's not the guy for her. Rumple should want to change because he wants to, not because he feels he is being forced into it.

 

That's the way I see it at least.

[Shanna Marie]

Season two and 3A pretty much destroyed any possibility of me taking Belle seriously as a hero or seeing her relationship with Rumple as anything but twisted.

 

She left him after "Skin Deep" because he chose power over love, but she had hope that the good man she saw inside would one day prevail (though there is the sticky issue -- also introduced in season 2, as I recall -- about one of her initial reasons for believing him to be good inside being that he stopped flaying a man alive). But then she's reunited with him and he hasn't changed a bit -- if anything, he's worse -- and she still gets back together with him. She asserted her independence for about five minutes, but got back together with him. We don't know if she ever knew he was trying to prevent her finding her father since she wouldn't listen to what her father tried to tell her about him and she apparently didn't ever see that he threw away the posters she made seeking her father. Attempting to isolate the person from friends and family is one of the key signs of an abuser, so that made the relationship uncomfortable to watch, and the fact that she didn't know was yet another one of those elephant in the room things this show is so bad at that makes the foundation of the relationship rather shaky, as it relies on one person not knowing something pretty damning that the other did to her. And then there's the whole mess with her reaction to Milah and Hook, where she buys into Rumple's "stolen wife" narrative and blames the victims, and then she goes victim blamey again when her reason for stopping Rumple from beating Hook to death isn't that beating a man to death is wrong or that Hook has already been more wronged by Rumple than Rumple ever was by Hook, but rather that Hook, the person being beaten, is in the wrong because by being beaten, he's trying to turn Rumple's heart dark. Then after learning that Rumple murdered his first wife for leaving him and after watching him brutally beat a man, she's still perfectly happy being with him and doesn't seem to blame him one bit.

 

So the problem was perhaps that they were too eager to get them together. If they hadn't been together as a couple (and apparently living together and sleeping together during at least part of it) during all the season 2 stuff, if she'd been trying to be friendly and supportive to him but keeping her distance romantically and hadn't responded like a morally questionable doormat to the revelations of his past evil and the views of his current cruelty, not to mention what she saw when she was Lacey and he didn't have her as a morality leash, then I might have been able to buy her being willing to marry him at the end of season 3, when him sacrificing himself and then doing everything he could to help them against Zelena made it look like he really had changed. She shouldn't have got together with him before she had that evidence. Then the 4A betrayal would have been even worse, coming so soon after she finally was able to accept him. They got impatient again, though, so she had to be sort of back with him by the end of the season, telling him that she loved him and not Will, in spite of him deceiving her yet again and in spite of the physical evidence that his heart was not, in fact good, that it was so black it was killing him and putting them all at risk. And then to build fake drama they had to have her leave him -- but when he was supposedly pure and good -- just to get back with him.

 

So a more consistent throughline with her would have helped matters -- keep them apart until after his sacrifice, then after his betrayal keep them apart, and then only bring them back together again after he's a pure-hearted hero and not the Dark One anymore, but then him choosing to become the Dark One again and co-opting Hook's sacrifice to do so pretty much has to put a fork in the relationship. The way they've written it, about the only way out that provides any character consistency is for her to either admit to herself that she actually likes the darkness and power and to go all-in, giving up on nagging him about being good, or to break with him entirely now that he's proven once and for all what he's really like, that she can't blame the Dark One for his character flaws.

[KingOfHearts]

Belle could be an interesting character. As YaddaYadda alluded, independence is entirely alien to her. She could be the contrast against the female leads in that way. Her development could be slowly learning to think for herself beyond book knowledge. Over time she could evolve from a traditional Disney princess to someone who isn't constantly governed by men. As Emma said in S1, "People are going to tell you who you are your whole life, but you have to push back and say, 'No, this is who I am.'"

What's funny is that the writers try to make her look like an independent adventurer through her flashbacks with random female guest stars. But it fails because they leave such little impact.

 

 

I'm sad to say that I think the whole purpose of Gaston is so that Belle finally acknowledges that this is how she likes her men, exactly like Rumple.

Gaston will be a nice, stand-up guy, but she'll turn him down because he's not edgy like Rumple. Pretty opposite of the Beauty and the Beast, no?

Edited April 9, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[mjgchick]

Remember when Henry said Dark Swan was worse than Rumple and Regina and the worst thing she ender up doing was rip peoples hearts out to do her bidding and turning a vengeful pirate into a crazy ass wizard? Stuff like that is why I'm afraid the writers will have Belle just accept Rumple as he is. She'll sacrifice her beliefs because he refuses to change. I'm sure A/E would love to send Belle away or worse kill her off but they are stuck with her so she'll be Rumples doormat the way we had to watch Emma be Regina's in that god awful episode.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Remember when Henry said Dark Swan was worse than Rumple and Regina and the worst thing she ender up doing was rip peoples hearts out to do her bidding and turning a vengeful pirate into a crazy ass wizard?

Replying in Morality.

Edited April 9, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Thanks for reminding us of that wonderful quote.  LOL... way to bring back the nightmares.

[YaddaYadda]

But has Rumple ever really cared what anyone thought of him? And I don't mean just as the Dark One. Even before he was that, he didn't really care. He lived in a village where people looked down on him, he stayed with a woman who didn't love him anymore. 

 

Rumple doesn't try to change, he tries to compromise instead, and that's the line he straddles or tries to straddle with Bae/Neal, and Belle. Everyone else? He doesn't give much of a hoot about, and I think that it probably comes from centuries of isolation, both pre and post Dark Oness.

 

It's not to excuse any of his actions, but this is who he's always been, I think.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Is she unable to be alone? Is she desperate for love?

Belle has had opportunities with other men (Gaston, Will), but she turned them down in favor of Rumple. I believe she, being an adventurer, likes him as a "project". She enjoys the exhilaration of dating a bad boy, but she keeps her conscience from getting to her by telling herself she's trying to make him a hero. In contrast, being with a moral, stable person is boring for her. She prefers the thrill of a beast.

Edited April 10, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[mjgchick]

I want more Emma/Snow/Killian doing whatever, where ever, when ever. Those few little scenes in tonight's episode reminded me of S2 with Hook and Team Princesses.

[CheshireCat]

KingOfHearts, on 08 Apr 2016 - 3:03 PM, said:

She's not getting help in her current crisis, either. The other characters get to counsel each other, why can't anyone give Belle some advice? Regina knows how to deal with Rumple and Emma knows a thing or two about female independence.

 

But remember - Belle is the one who wanted the heros to look for Rumple rather than figure out a way to save the Savior and then accused the heros to be selfish or something along the lines and she is also still so uncooperative and holding so much of a grudge that, after everything Rumple has done to her, Regina still needed to take her heart so she could save Robin (and I know many are not satisfied with how it has been done, but contrary to Rumple, Regina truly changed). After everything Rumple had done to Belle, I would have expected Belle to cooperate, help Regina deceive Rumple but no. Anyway, my point is that I'm not sure if she' not getting any help or simply doesn't want any help. I'd suspect it's the latter.

[Geeni]

Remember how I said in my last post I'm a Belle fan? LOL fuck that. Bitch can rot in the Underworld, without her precious Rumple, for all I care. 

 

However, I still love the adorable cupcake that is Emilie, so it hurts saying that :( So I say kill Belle and #FreeEmilie from this show.

[tennisgurl]

I used to love Belle, but now I just find her and Rumple to be a bizarre and pointless couple. I honestly want more Regina and Robin, as opposed to more Rumple and Belle! This is how low I have gotten!

[Curio]

I want more Emma/Snow/Killian doing whatever, where ever, when ever. Those few little scenes in tonight's episode reminded me of S2 with Hook and Team Princesses.

 

Amen! Unfortunately, we still didn't really get much Killian and Snow talking to each other, which would have been a rare first since Season 2, but I'll take baby steps with these writers. So here's a cookie for finally listening to our wishes and creating a unique trio of Hook/Emma/Snow which we've never gotten before, but I'm reserving the entire cake until we finally get a proper conversation on screen that utilizes that unique combination to its fullest.

Edited April 11, 2016 by Curio

[KingOfHearts]

 

Unfortunately, we still didn't really get much Killian and Snow talking to each other, which would have been a rare first since Season 2, but I'll take baby steps with these writers.

I would love for Hook and Snow to go on a quest together. I feel like Snow would have an interesting opinion about him dating her daughter, but also I believe she could warm up to him quite a bit. 

[Camera One]

She already seemed quite concerned about him when they saw him for the first time in the Underworld.

 

It was unintentionally funny when Emma and Snow had a hug and then it was interrupted by Regina, and then they panned out and we saw Emma/Snow finishing the hug and saying something to each other in the far corner of the screen.  Really shows how important they think the relationship is.  What we got in this episode can already be considered quality time since they spoke at least 2 lines to each other.

[mjgchick]

Can Henry just find out what a douche his grandpa is so he can apologize to his mom (the sane one.) for thinking she's worse than that monster? I'll never forgive him for that.

[profdanglais]

I think I've worked out why I never got into Rumbelle. Well, one reason. 

 

The thing is that having Rumple be the Beast from Beauty and the Beast doesn't really work. It was interesting in S1 in a surprise-twist kind of way, the problem is that B&B's moral is not to judge people based on their appearance. The Beast is scary on the outside, but on the inside he's good, and Beauty/Belle is unique because she's able to see that. The Disney film adds another layer by having Belle able to see beneath Gaston's handsome exterior. This indicates that she is noble and generous and not shallow or judgmental. So, believing in the Beast=good. The trouble with all that in the context of OUAT is that Rumple's sparkly-imp exterior is a reflection of who he really is, not a cover for it. Mr Gold, the respectable local businessman in the sharp suit, is much more a disguise of Rumple's real character than the sparkle imp. Regardless of his external appearance, Rumple never stops being the Dark One. So Belle's persistence in believing Rumple is a good man is less noble generosity of spirit and more wilful self-delusion and refusal to believe that she could have been wrong about him from the start. Instead of making Belle look good it makes her look idiotic and arrogant in her insistence that she and she alone can see the goodness in Rumple. If in the original B&B, the Beast went out every night to slaughter villagers and small animals and appeared at home each morning dripping blood from fang and claw and told Beauty that of course he hadn't killed anyone, and if he had it was only because they forced him to, at which point Beauty would clean the blood from his face and earnestly declare her unwavering faith in his goodness... if that were the original story then the OUAT version would work perfectly. 

 

The narrative necessity of keeping Rumple a bad guy has basically ruined Belle. 

[Camera One]

And they pretty much cemented that with "Her Handsome Hero".

[mjgchick]

Yeah before the episode aired I knew either Gaston was going to be destroyed or Belle. This episode ruined both of them and just made Rumple even more one note.

[CheshireCat]

I'm not sure if it goes in here, apologies if not. But Our Decay reminded me that Belle had found out in S4 that the thing Rumple loved most was his dagger. I only remembered that she had banished him from Storybrooke but that reminded me of why. Which makes her attitude towards the heroes even more annoying because everyone else was willing to make sacrifices for the people they love most. Yet it's Rumple Belle keeps siding with. In retrospect that makes a lot of what she's said and done very hypocritical and ridiculous. Though I think Rumple was right when he said that Belle had fallen in love with the man he was, not the man behind the beast. Though I don't agree that Belle only loves him the way he is. I think if he gave up magic, she would love him just as much. It's not the magic or the bad things he does which she loves about him. Or at least, she has not been portrayed to up until now. How knows, that might change if the need arises for it to change...

[YaddaYadda]

I was thinking about the relationships on the show and the whole true love's kiss business, and realized that Belle and Rumple's relationship as a couple has been really short thus far, but started wondering if maybe one of the reasons Belle keeps going back and forth on the relationship isn't because of the TLK.

 

Belle goes from her father's home to Rumple's cell in his castle. She becomes his maid I don't know how long after. There's the TLK attempt at some point which nearly works until Rumple pulls back. Belle gets kidnapped by Regina, Rumple believes she died. Belle is prisoner for a tad more than 28 years. When she is freed, she and Rumple are reunited, then she leaves, then she is shot over the town line and becomes Lacey. She gets her memories back, Rumple is off to Neverland, they reunite, he sacrifices himself to get rid of Pan, the curse happens, Rumple is resurrected sometime during the missing year, but close enough to when Snow is casting the dark curse, so let's say he's dead for nearly a year, then he is controlled by Zelena. Rumple and Belle reunite, get married. Rumple lies to Belle a lot in 4A, she banishes him from Storybrooke, he is gone for 6 weeks, comes back, Belle is with Will, she is scared of Rumple (eye roll), but she's still carrying a torch for him. The AU happens, Rumple is a coma, Belle is off to Camelot, she comes back, they reunite for 2 minutes, but not really. Belle decides that she wants to do things for herself, so she dumps Rumple, then she comes back to SB because she decided she'd rather be with him because he did something that was selfless for her.

 

And now they're reunited in the UW. 

 

All in all, how long have they been a couple? And this is why I hate the whole TLK concept because I feel this is the main reason Belle keeps going back for more, because they are true love, and that's where it starts, and where it ends with her. Because Belle is one of those characters back in season 1 and 2 that was filling the holes in regards to what love/true love is. I mean she practically gave Grumpy a lesson in his centric about love. 

 

I find the TLK in Belle and Rumple's case hindered any kind of let's explore this relationship and see where it takes us. I know Belle was supposed to be just a one off before they made her a series regular, so Skin Deep while one of the best episodes of the entire series has just handicapped that relationship a lot for me.

 

Probably in the minority thinking that.

[Rumsy4]

I am so confused about what TIIC are trying to say with Rumple. With all the other villlians we had a sort of "yeah, but they are just looking for love. True love will change them". ... But Rumple gets his true love with Belle and just gets worse. Are they saying she is not, actually his true love, or that he is just an irredeemable fuck who should be killed but never will because of Robert Carlyle.

...But Belle's love here is only making the curse worse because it's giving Rumple excuses to be the ass he clearly loves being.

I too don't get what the writers are intending with Rumple. The events of S4 and S5 have clearly shown that Rumple has no intention of being a good person; that he will always choose himself when it comes down to the wire; and he doesn't care how much collateral damage he causes to other people.

So, where does Belle fit in? If this was a cautionary tale about unhealthy love, it would make sense. But the writers seem to be positioning Belle to condone Rumple's selfishness and hunger for power. After Belle pushes Gaston into the River, Rumple tells Belle that he did not want this for her. I took that to mean he didn't want her to do a terrible act like that. But, by staying with Rumple, Belle would be actively condoning Rumple's misdeeds anyway, even if she doesn't take an active hand in it. She can't pretend she is a good person and pretend to be untouched by evil, while remaining in a relationship with a self-confessed murderer who doesn't want to change. The events of the last episode prove it! You play with fire--you will get burnt. But I have a feeling that nothing is going to change with them. Belle will never be able to let go of Rumple, and Rumple will continue to make a fool of her.

[YaddaYadda]

At this point, I'm convinced that the reason Belle is sticking around is because of the TLK shenanigans that happened in Skin Deep. He is her true love, therefore, there can never be anyone but him. 

 

Skin Deep was one of my favorite episodes of the series, but I'm sort of starting to hate it in light of everything that's been happening.

[Camera One]

I too don't get what the writers are intending with Rumple. The events of S4 and S5 have clearly shown that Rumple has no intention of being a good person; that he will always choose himself when it comes down to the wire; and he doesn't care how much collateral damage he causes to other people.

 

From the twisted writers' thinking, they see it differently.  They had Rumple express some remorse to Robin in "Heart of Gold".  They made it seem like not killing Will and getting Belle's heart back was a big breakthrough.  In 5A, they made Rumple the purest heart that could pull Excalibur out.  And in interviews, they said sending Belle on a trip around the world was very selfless, and showed how much Rumple cared.  

 

 

After Belle pushes Gaston into the River, Rumple tells Belle that he did not want this for her. I took that to mean he didn't want her to do a terrible act like that.

 

That really irked me.  Rumple could easily have frozen the moment, and pushed Gaston into the river himself, to spare Belle from doing the deed.  He's still manipulating Belle.  He still lied to her when he went off to face Gaston in the river.

 

 

 

But, by staying with Rumple, Belle would be actively condoning Rumple's misdeeds anyway, even if she doesn't take an active hand in it. She can't pretend she is a good person and pretend to be untouched by evil, while remaining in a relationship with a self-confessed murderer who doesn't want to change. The events of the last episode prove it! You play with fire--you will get burnt. But I have a feeling that nothing is going to change with them. Belle will never be able to let go of Rumple, and Rumple will continue to make a fool of her.

 

I think the lesson Belle is meant to learn in "Her Handsome Hero" is that sometimes, getting rid of evil like Gaston requires a little darkness, and all Rumple is trying to do now is to protect their poor innocent baby from Hades.  So she needs to allow some things to slide.  I mean, even Emma pulled out the heart of a teenage girl to save everyone.  Even Snow and Charming separated an innocent Lily from their mother for more than 28 years.  Staying with Rumple is certainly no worse than those despicable acts.

Edited April 17, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

What they're doing to Rumple is what they did to Regina, and that's making him both dark and heroic so they can have their cake and eat it too. It's not anti-hero or gray writing, either. It's using characters like Belle to permit it and prop them up. Rumple is even worse than Regina because he has no plans to change, yet he's still shown as "in the right" at certain times. Whatever redemption he has is a clever illusion the heroes took hook, line and sinker.

Edited April 17, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[DigitalCount]

I do have a question about Rumple's capabilities in that moment when Belle pushed Gaston. Belle was holding the dagger. Do we know if her last command stopped him from being able to do anything? Can he act independently of the dagger in a roundabout way? Like, say, Belle says "don't hurt Gaston," can he then destroy the dock while teleporting himself and Belle away so that Gaston just happens to fall into the river? Because if the answer is no, then I don't think he could have frozen Gaston at that point either.

 

In fairness this is probably a better question to ask in the episode thread, but it relates to the two of them because I don't think Rumple's failure to use magic there was actually a manipulation on his part. I don't think it was his fault that Belle did what she did.

Edited April 17, 2016 by DigitalCount

[Camera One]

That's a really good point regarding Belle having the dagger.

 

If we're going by Writer intent, for sure Rumple was not manipulating. Based on what we're shown, we're meant to interpret that there was nothing Rumple could have done.

 

The issue is fuzzy wuzzy to me mainly because of the nebulous magical rules, which raises the question of whether he could actually have done something.  We have seen Dark Ones still do magic while someone else had the Dagger.  Not magic to hurt the dagger holder, but magic nonetheless.   Belle said to Rumple, "I can't let you hurt him.  In fact, I command you not to".  But could Rumple have actually saved Gaston, to save Belle from being the "killer"?  Could he have frozen time and constructed more of the pier, so Gaston would just fall on the wooden planks and not into the water?   Based on being able to catch those arrows, his response time is supposed to be lightning fast.  If he made an active decision *not* to save Gaston, then he was partly responsible for letting the consequences of Belle's actions stand.  Which makes his, "I never wanted this to happen to you, but you saved me." a bit disingenuous.

Edited April 17, 2016 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

That was a sad excuse of an LGBT relationship. I don't think an interracial LGBT romance would have been more controversial than having two white women get together. If that's what A&E were trying to avoid. Why bring Mulan back to have her be the side-kick again? Frankenwolf would have been better than Ruby's lacklustre romance with Merida 2.0. 

Edited April 18, 2016 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

Frankenwolf would have been better than Ruby's lacklustre romance with Merida 2.0.

 

Tonight we got another example of what we've been talking about in the Writers thread. Red had so many possible choices for girlfriends or boyfriends, and the writers picked a totally irrelevant character. Red herself was handled okay, minus the instant True Love, but it's hard for me to care about her relationships because they come and go so quickly. (Yes, that was an Oz pun.) The writers went from Peter to August to Frankenstein to Mulan to Dorothy.

 

I somehow recall A&E saying they wanted the LGBT relationship to flow into the show and not seem like a "Very Special Episode". They blew it. The show was interrupted by an irrelevant subplot that stuck out like a sore thumb. It was so forced and didn't flow or feel natural at all. In my opinion, it did more harm than good.

[scenicbyway]

That was a sad excuse of an LGBT relationship. I don't think an interracial LGBT romance would have been more controversial than having two white women get together. If that's what A&E were trying to avoid. Why bring Mulan back to have her be the side-kick again? Frankenwolf would have been better than Ruby's lacklustre romance with Merida 2.0.

I don't think it has anything to do with race. I think it has to do with the Disney Princess franchise. Mulan is a Disney princess, Red and Dorothy are not. It doesn't fundamentally change their story for them to be a couple. If Disney revisits Mulan it would change her story.

[Rumsy4]

In my opinion, it did more harm than good.

 

I don't know if I would say that. At least they didn't cut away from the Ruby/Dorothy kiss. And tbf, the Hades/Zelena romance was no more developed before Hades thought TLK would unstop his heart. 

I don't think it has anything to do with race. I think it has to do with the Disney Princess franchise. Mulan is a Disney princess, Red and Dorothy are not. It doesn't fundamentally change their story for them to be a couple. If Disney revisits Mulan it would change her story.

 

The thing is, I don't think Disney considers anything that happens in ONCE as canon. The Shows twists fairy tales way too much for that.

[KingOfHearts]

 

The thing is, I don't think Disney considers anything that happens in ONCE as canon. The Shows twists fairy tales way too much for that.

It's more about protecting their image. They've stepped in for things before, like Frozen for example. 

 

 

And tbf, the Hades/Zelena romance was no more developed before Hades thought TLK would unstop his heart.

Well, to Hades/Zelena's credit, it was particularly one-sided. There was no confirmation a TLK would have worked. It was silly that both Ruby and Dorothy fell in love so fast. 

 

 

I don't know if I would say that. At least they didn't cut away from the Ruby/Dorothy kiss.

From all the first reactions I've seen, this episode drove people away from incorporating LGBT couples more than it made them want more. I think viewers felt like their show was hijacked by a Very Special Message. I personally don't find it to be the worst thing ever (the rushed-ness was not new to the show), but it tried to address something important to many people and failed. It didn't do the characters nor LGBT viewers justice. It was just very disappointing.

Edited April 18, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[InsertWordHere]

Almost all of the romantic TLKs on this show have been done after the couples have known each other for a very short amount of time. 

 

I'm never going to forget that Papa Hook got a TLK without ever having spoken to his nurse. 

[KAOS Agent]

With Mulan, there is the sticky situation that she has a partner in Shang. Didn't they get married in one of the sequels? Her sexuality is less of a problem than that she has a partner in Disney canon. I think they could have a female Shang and it would work, but hooking her up permanently with a different character is messy. I know one little kid who watches the show and wanted to know where Shang was and why Mulan didn't love him anymore. 

[Rumsy4]

I will be so happy if we got a genderbent Shang. But I doubt that's going to happen beyond fanfic. 

[scenicbyway]

Maybe this is what the writers want, but I'm at the point of not caring if CS get a TLK. They've taken away the mystery and value of it. It used to be about fighting for your love and recognizing how much you love each other. Pretty much every other couple has had a TLK and some even after knowing each other 1 day and others even when they've never spoken. Yet we see CS constantly struggle and try for TLK only to be denied each time. Why?

[myril]

From all the first reactions I've seen, this episode drove people away from incorporating LGBT couples more than it made them want more. I think viewers felt like their show was hijacked by a Very Special Message. I personally don't find it to be the worst thing ever (the rushed-ness was not new to the show), but it tried to address something important to many people and failed. It didn't do the characters nor LGBT viewers justice. It was just very disappointing.

 

Whenever people say something like that they feel, that their show was "hijacked" by a special message or for an "agenda", they usually are the kind of people claiming, they are otherwise oh so liberal and okay with gays and same sex marriage in real life, but complain why it has be pushed onto every show and especially their show, a family show. Those are people who don't want to see any iota of LGBTQI on their screen ever, it should stay where it never could cross their ways. That's the kind filling the Facebook page with commentaries at the moment, sounding less ugly but meaning it as ugly as those being more direct with their hate and opposition. It will never matter how much or how little or how at all shows incorporate LGBTQI characters and stories, those people will never accept it. And there likely will be people opposing any representation being more than a rather invisible background extra at best for years to come, but hopefully their numbers will dwindle and so they might shut up at some point.

 

Think you can do only harm, if portraying LGBTQI has sin and dangerous, as killing people, as mental illness, or don't make clear enough that your killer is not a killer because he is gay but just happens to be gay for example. That has done plenty of harm to how LGBTQI were perceived and still can do harm.

 

That OUaT with Dorothy and Red falls back pretty much on the onetime episode relationship for LGBTQI, even if they might return they hardly ever will be anything but a sideshow, doesn't harm I think, it is just no progress. It just is not what some people against all odds were somehow hoping for, so it mostly disappointed. Ruby Slippers is coming close to a one off episode, regardless that Red has been a fan favorite and recurring. That might have been something to wow in the first or second season, but at this point it just can't shed the mark of being just an afterthought. But I have seen some grateful commentaries and reactions, for more casual viewers of the show it might have been quite okay.

They did in a way, what they said, they made it like other true love stories on the show. I know, some understood what A&E said in an interview differently, but I never took them saying, that it would be something not different as love story from Snow and Charming or Hook and Emma as a promise that it would be any kind of a longer story, adding new regular characters, or bringing back character to regular level as it would be with Red, but more in the line of being a love that overcomes all obstacles, even curses and different realms, and having the power of a TLK as magical means, nothing more nothing less. They very much did that, although packed the development into one episode. It's a condensed version of Snowing before they married. From A&E's view and has they understood things they did everything right and as announced. That many fans understood something different and hoped for something different is nothing new, that kind of dissent is business as usual for this show.

 

That the show sees true love as something rather magical , hitting in an instant is what true love is on this show, at least between adult partners. It might take some struggle to get together, to overcome obstacles, for the lovers eventually to accept their feelings, but the feeling itself is something that doesn't need big effort, it's just there. Many might disagree that this is true love, but it's what it is that in the shows reality, that is how their world is build.

 

 

 

Maybe this is what the writers want, but I'm at the point of not caring if CS get a TLK. They've taken away the mystery and value of it. It used to be about fighting for your love and recognizing how much you love each other. Pretty much every other couple has had a TLK and some even after knowing each other 1 day and others even when they've never spoken. Yet we see CS constantly struggle and try for TLK only to be denied each time. Why?

 

Why shouldn't every couple have TLK? Does it have to be something rare to be special? Isn't it more important that it is special for those involved, the characters? And I get that it hurts a lot of CS fans that their favorites still didn't get that chance for TLK, but maybe it's worth to be something to save for a big final showdown of the final of all finals? I mean, what if they get it now, what should follow? How to top that? Doesn't it make those two way more special than others that they still haven't gotten it? The big final end game of the show? If they don't do that TLK right, that could be something making this show really jump the shark. Of course, dragging it is quite a risk too, a some point the tension expands until it explodes or disappears and people might not care anymore. The dilemma of focusing on relationship stories for any TV show, the moment you get happy ending, reach the peak of the relationship, most struggle to have any stories to tell left. So frequently either the chase is lasting and lasting, or the couple is broken up, separated again and again, to challenge their love anew, increasing the stakes every time. I think a TLK for CS would become only a cheap one if they don't make it something really special for them, it doesn't matter what they're doing with other couples. 

Edited April 18, 2016 by myril

[Curio]

And I get that it hurts a lot of CS fans that their favorites still didn't get that chance for TLK, but maybe it's worth to be something to save for a big final showdown of the final of all finals? I mean, what if they get it now, what should follow? How to top that? Doesn't it make those two way more special than others that they still haven't gotten it? The big final end game of the show? If they don't do that TLK right, that could be something making this show really jump the shark.

 

Agreed. I'm totally cool with waiting for a Captain Swan TLK until the final season, or even not at all, because they've basically proved that they're True Love already. (Anyone who doesn't think they're True Love at this point are just putting their ostrich heads in the ground.) From a writing perspective, it would be disappointing if the show never confirmed their status with a kiss, but it's also kind of nice having a couple on the show who choose to be each others' True Loves even though they have no magical confirmation of it. It's like they're saying "screw it" to the magical system and choosing to be together because they already know they're each others' perfect match. Even if Tink came in randomly and told Emma about a prophecy that foretold Emma and Tarzan as soulmates, I still think Emma and Killian would choose each other at the end of the day.

 

Frankly, I just want the "fun" to begin more than I want a TLK at this point for those two. They deserve several weeks of "fun" after this Underworld stuff is all over.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Curio

[Rumsy4]

I was surprised to see that some people are angry with Belle for not believing in Rumple's love anymore, becasue she wants her father to break her curse.

 

Rumple has made it clear he doesn't want to choose her over his power. So, asking him to wake her from a sleeping curse would would be like coercing him into doing something against his will. She would want him to chose her out of his own free will, and not becasue he has no other choice. At any rate, I do think the writers are working up to a Rumbelle TLK. Ugh.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Rumsy4

[Shanna Marie]

They've really watered down the concept of a True Love's Kiss to the point it's almost meaningless. With the initial sleeping curse affecting Snow, the idea was that it was just about an unbreakable curse. Having a true love strong enough to break the curse was an unanticipated, shocking development. A baby born of True Love was so rare as to be magical, and something to weave into a spell because it could break even the Dark Curse.

 

They were already starting to weaken their own concept in the first season, when they were tossing out "have you tried True Love's Kiss?" like it was the magical equivalent of turning it off and back on again or checking to make sure something's plugged in. Even so, it was a big deal when Emma kissed Henry, signifying that she'd finally accepted her role in his life and that he was already seeing her as Mom.

 

But then Regina was able to break a curse with a True Love's Kiss with a kid who hadn't actually been around her much since he escaped her abuse and while she didn't have a heart. And then there was Brennan Jones being saved with a kiss from someone who hadn't ever even met him, which just destroyed the concept entirely. That one is sad because it was so unnecessary. They destroyed one of their core bits of magic, something that was supposed to be special, just to find a way for Hook to have met his father again in a one-off scene that didn't really mean all that much. So with that in mind, I guess it's okay that "I just met this person and she makes me feel a way I haven't felt before" counts as curse-breaking True Love. And now Belle isn't taking that big a risk in putting herself under a sleeping curse, since if her father doesn't work or if Rumple doesn't get his act together (if they had a TLK that broke the curse on her, would that automatically break the curse on him, and that's the reason he won't be able to do it?), someone who's met her before and kind of liked her could sit by her side and read A Handsome Hero to her, and they'll still be a step ahead of what happened with Brennan.

 

It is weird that the Sleeping Curse had gone from the worst thing ever that most likely couldn't be broken, and it's a shock if it does, to something that people do willingly and easily as a solution to their problems because it's so easily fixed.

[YaddaYadda]

It is weird that the Sleeping Curse had gone from the worst thing ever that most likely couldn't be broken, and it's a shock if it does, to something that people do willingly and easily as a solution to their problems because it's so easily fixed.

 

It's no different than casting the dark curse which has already been done 3 more times (Pan, Snow and Hook), or realm jumping.

 

Opening portals was like the hardest thing to do. Look at what we've got now?

[kili]

Agreed. I'm totally cool with waiting for a Captain Swan TLK until the final season, or even not at all, because they've basically proved that they're True Love already

 

I would have been fine with them holding the CS TLK to the final season had they not inserted so many failed ones along the way. Sure, there is always some technicality that scholars of the show can recognize (she didn't remember him, she was giving him mouth-to-mouth, she wanted to keep her Dark One powers, he didn't realize he had Dark One powers), but the average viewer without encyclopedic knowledge of the show will just see that it failed. At the rate we are going, we'll probably get 3 or 4 more failed kisses before we get a real one.

 

By the time they give them a real TLK, it's going to feel like a total ret-con to make the CS fans happy in the show's final season.

 

If you want to hold the TLK to the final season, then don't put the characters in situations where they TLK and fail. Especially in a show where functioning TLK's are a dime a dozen. Don't have a heart? No problem. Known the person for 3 antagonizing minutes? No Problem. Never met the person? No problem.

Edited April 18, 2016 by kili

[HoodlumSheep]

I don't have a problem with CS not TLKing. I can wait. Someone in the Fandom thread made the point that some of the stuff involving CS is probably going to be saved for last (TLK, wedding, etc.), which I'm completely cool with.

My headcanon for why we haven't got one yet is because their TLK would be the most amazing, True-love-iest kiss of them all (ala The Princess Bride), which would also basically turn out like the end of 'Return of the King' where all the evil bad guys disintegrate from the light magic caused by their kiss. I can dream.

On a completely different note, I'm not sure if I want to watch the new episode because I rather like Zades/Wicked Hell ("Our Decay" is actually one of my favorite episodes of 5b) and it sounds like Hades gets pushy, which makes me sad. I guess I could still guilty-pleasure-ship-it like I do Rumple/Cora and AuthElla (sorry James). :P

Edited April 18, 2016 by HoodlumSheep

[Joanh23]

They've really watered down the concept of a True Love's Kiss to the point it's almost meaningless. With the initial sleeping curse affecting Snow, the idea was that it was just about an unbreakable curse. Having a true love strong enough to break the curse was an unanticipated, shocking development. A baby born of True Love was so rare as to be magical, and something to weave into a spell because it could break even the Dark Curse.

 

They were already starting to weaken their own concept in the first season, when they were tossing out "have you tried True Love's Kiss?" like it was the magical equivalent of turning it off and back on again or checking to make sure something's plugged in. Even so, it was a big deal when Emma kissed Henry, signifying that she'd finally accepted her role in his life and that he was already seeing her as Mom.

 

But then Regina was able to break a curse with a True Love's Kiss with a kid who hadn't actually been around her much since he escaped her abuse and while she didn't have a heart. And then there was Brennan Jones being saved with a kiss from someone who hadn't ever even met him, which just destroyed the concept entirely. That one is sad because it was so unnecessary. They destroyed one of their core bits of magic, something that was supposed to be special, just to find a way for Hook to have met his father again in a one-off scene that didn't really mean all that much. So with that in mind, I guess it's okay that "I just met this person and she makes me feel a way I haven't felt before" counts as curse-breaking True Love. And now Belle isn't taking that big a risk in putting herself under a sleeping curse, since if her father doesn't work or if Rumple doesn't get his act together (if they had a TLK that broke the curse on her, would that automatically break the curse on him, and that's the reason he won't be able to do it?), someone who's met her before and kind of liked her could sit by her side and read A Handsome Hero to her, and they'll still be a step ahead of what happened with Brennan.

 

It is weird that the Sleeping Curse had gone from the worst thing ever that most likely couldn't be broken, and it's a shock if it does, to something that people do willingly and easily as a solution to their problems because it's so easily fixed.

I agree with all of this.  

 

I generally buy whatever this show is selling (except for Rumbelle - they'll never sell that one to me) but I'm struggling to buy that Ruby and Dorothy could have a TLK after knowing each other a couple of hours, and this has nothing to do with the fact that it's a LGBT couple.  Most of the flashbacks in S1 were used to show us how special/unique Snow and Charmings love was, even Rumbelle got to know each other over several months before they attempted a TLK.  It took Regina 11 years before she could TLK Henry and it also took Emma all of S1 before she loved Henry enough to succeed.  I would have bought it if it was between Mulan and Ruby but Dorothy/Ruby was just too quick.  

[Mari]

I would have bought it if it was between Mulan and Ruby but Dorothy/Ruby was just too quick.  

Especially Ruby, who's been consistently a character who sparks with a lot of people, but doesn't actually emotionally connect in a long-term way.  Yes, that was likely for plot and drama reasons, but that made her a character with a lot of flirtations, almost-romances, and short relationships that never became serious.  

 

With Mulan, there would have been the meet-cute and sparkage in the horrible bear episode, followed by quite a bit of time where we could buy that they became very close, albeit off-screen.   Realizing on-screen that they were in love, without seeing them fall there, would make sense.  Viewers had started to think of them as a potential couple--lots of people buying into it.

 

But Dorothy?  In a one-and-done, fifteen minutes together--a couple of hours in-show time?  That doesn't make sense for me, simply because at what point did this relationship become more important and valuable to Red than any of the other part-episode possible relationships the show's played with for her?    Especially when the story and acting made Dorothy unfriendly and abrasive, and there seemed to be less chemistry (which, granted, subjective), than a lot of other characters have had with Ruby.

[Shanna Marie]

What it boiled down to is that this felt a lot more like "Yay, we've ticked of that box on the diversity checklist and covered ourselves after someone said something in an interview and it turned into a big thing that we had to deliver. Moving on now ..." than "we were inspired to develop this relationship after seeing how these characters worked together, and we got excited about the possibilities in telling their story."

[myril]

Especially Ruby, who's been consistently a character who sparks with a lot of people, but doesn't actually emotionally connect in a long-term way.  Yes, that was likely for plot and drama reasons, but that made her a character with a lot of flirtations, almost-romances, and short relationships that never became serious.  

 

I know you are not thinking along that line, but still that argument comes in my ears quite close to what is called slut shaming. Not that anyone here is actually shaming Ruby for her behavior with full intention, but I do wonder why it should make any difference for true love and TLK how many people a person might have dated or flirted with before? If they had not connected or avoided to emotionally connect with someone before more intensely? That she might not have been more serious with others before doesn't mean that she can't be now serious with this one person.

 

I get that for many people time equals effort and effort equals quality, but that is not exactly how emotions work. Some experience emotions more intense than others. Some have some quite strong rather rational filters most of the time and their emotions are kinda leveled out. Others are intense but still only superficial and moving on fast.  For some it takes time to let themselves go at all. Others explode easily. Some are known as reserved but then with the right person in the right moment they all of a sudden let loose. You look at it as if has to work one and the same way for everybody, but that is not how I think it is, not in real life neither in the fictional world of OUaT. Love, true love is a very different experience for different people, it's not even always one and the same experience for the same person, it depends on the other and on context. A TLK depends on being ready to fully trust and commit in that very moment, it's a magical moment so it creates magic,it doesn't depend on how long you have worked on getting there. For some it might be possible just five minutes after they've met, others need time to find or build that level of trust and commitment inside of themselves. And then you need a good timing, because both have to have that emotional openness and trust to create the magic. 

 

Indeed Ruby hasn't connected on long-term level or shown any interest in a person on that level after Peter so far, that was plausible given her background and experience with Peter. But a lot has happened the past couple of months (it's now about 2 years since Regina's first dark curse was broken, is it?), things have changed. Ruby felt this need to look for the pack, And I think that very same urge to connect, to find her place could have pushed her with Dorothy now on the fast track. But okay, I liked Dorothy more than most here seem to do, didn't find her that terribly gruff, and I saw some chemistry working. As I don't think that TLK has anything to do with time and effort but lies in the moment.

 

If this is about Ruby and Dorothy getting it faster than main characters, well think that in this case it is the advantage of being the sideshow. Taking it slower would have meant to give two more characters more moments in the show, add more competition for screen time for the main ships. This fandom has some nitpickers recording things like that, how much time for who, people getting nervous or angry about any of the main couples getting more time than the others. You want to add another couple to that competition?

 

Yes, they ticked of the box, but with the distance I have by now to this show I can very much see that from their point of view they told a good love story and did what they promised to do. Different perceptions.

 

Funny thing for me is, that from the moment it turned out that Red/Ruby was herself the wolf I saw the potential of  LGBTQI storyline for this character, that was in season 1. Now I can't tell without any doubt if that was because I liked the character so much or if I fell in love with that character because I sensed early on something could be possible. Wishful thinking or a sixth sense. But it was one of the reasons why I was miffed when they didn't do much with Red in season 2 and pretty much gave up developing her character, because I didn't get how they could waste that potential. Not if they truly wanted to tell fairy tales in a new modern way.

 

And then they messed up their next chance with Mulan and Aurora right after. I already had only very little hope for Frozen, and some were hoping for that chance next then.

 

No, I never cared about SwanQueen or found that a good pairing, but I did see why some people saw something in it early on. The training of having to rely for a long time on nothing but subtext for this, you do see things a bit different. But that just by the way.

 

The show runners had a number of chances to do something better than this sort of underwhelming one off with Ruby and Dorothy. I don't buy at all into the speculations that Disney had not green-lighted any of the other possibilities, I do think that the writers never before seriously tried to do something. It was somewhere on their list of something to do sometime, and they sounded always rather annoyed to be asked that every time. They just didn't care enough. Don't need to be any nice about that. This love story was not satisfying, not all, It was nice when you watch it rather isolated and not caring about the big picture nor about the show, but that's it. Something for casual viewers at best.

Edited April 18, 2016 by myril

[KingOfHearts]

I like the Ruby/Dorothy pairing, and their big TLK scene was romantic. I just wish it had more setup, that Mulan wasn't just cast off to the side, and that it didn't totally derail everything else. If I didn't know any better, I'd say it existed only for the Ruby Slippers pun. But it's not a bad idea and I don't believe they had zero chemistry. The surrounding circumstances and rushed writing are really what keep it from being recognized by the majority as a good ship.

[Mari]

I know you are not thinking along that line, but still that argument comes in my ears quite close to what is called slut shaming. Not that anyone here is actually shaming Ruby for her behavior with full intention, but I do wonder why it should make any difference for true love and TLK how many people a person might have dated or flirted with before? If they had not connected or avoided to emotionally connect with someone before more intensely? That she might not have been more serious with others before doesn't mean that she can't be now serious with this one person.

Um . . . . no.  Not slut-shaming.

 

The reason there's a connection between how many people she's dated and not accepting the Ruby/Dorothy pairing is because with all those dates, Ruby was shown to be someone who liked people, and found them interesting, but didn't emotionally connect quickly, on a romantic level.    That makes sense after what happened with Peter, I guess.

 

If Ruby had fallen in love with Mulan, that would make some emotional sense, from my point of view.  There was sparkage, and a lot of time together, and Ruby--who's been demonstrated repeatedly to not romantically connect deeply quickly, and is not someone who confuses attraction and possibilities with love--would have had time to make that connection.

 

Instead, with Dorothy, there was very little chemistry, very little interaction, and not enough done to explain why this relationship was different than others Ruby (and the audience, and the writers) had considered.

 

If they had built up to it, I could see it. But I don't think they put the time and effort into this story to make it emotionally plausible.