Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[KingOfHearts]

Snow and Charming's relationship with Emma is still "salvageable". Besides the whole needing Emma to stop Zelena, I think the negligence was due to poor execution and not enough screen time between Emma and her parents having meaningful conversations. (S2, anyone??) They don't seem to have that bad of a relationship. They were, after all, the reason Emma wanted to stay. If Emma has a problem with them not caring for her like they should, then she could talk with them. But that doesn't seem to be the case, because just a few episodes ago they were building cribs, hugging and fighting crime together sans pregnant Snow. I think, after Emma's reevaluation in the finale, they'll come closer. Calling them mom and dad without a life-threatening catastrophe was a growth point.

 

I don't agree with a lot of Snowing's parent choices, but their relationship with Emma isn't exactly on the rocks right now. We may not be okay with how they handle things, but Emma herself is doing just fine at the moment. 

Edited June 8, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Whodunnit]

Yes, Hook could have traded the ship for a bean but without the memory potion don't you think that would have been rather pointless?

 

Also, he was able to get that magic bean rather quickly... which at least implies that he had put the word out that he wanted a magic bean or some way to open up a portal beforehand.

Edited June 8, 2014 by Whodunnit

[Souris]

I think we're giving Hook a little too much credit here. He didn't do a single thing to look for Emma, either, until the "curse coming! Find Emma and give her the memory potion!" note came. And since apparently he could have traded the Jolly Roger for a bean to get back to her at any time, if he'd been motivated enough to, imo he's not coming off much better than Snow and Charming here. 

 

Until the curse was cast, he couldn't get back to her even with a bean, at least according to the way they've now set up travel between their world and ours. He told Emma that once the curse was cast, the walls between our worlds came down and travel between the worlds was possible again, so he could get to her as long as he had a bean.

 

No, I don't know how Bae was able to get to the Darlings' time with a magic bean back then, but now they seem to be saying that travel between our worlds is possible only when the Dark Curse is in effect.

[Camera One]

Snow makes one tiny, sad "We're back."

 

I rewatched "New York City Serenade" / "Witch Hunt" recently, and yes, it was really disappointing.  One of the things I was looking forward to, was Snow and Charming reacting to losing Emma.  Except there was nothing.  The screentime was spent on how Regina reacting to losing Henry, that she wanted to bury her heart (in "New York City Serenade") and give herself a sleeping spell (in "Witch Hunt").  I wish there was a way to get across to the writers that this was not okay.

 

Besides the whole needing Emma to stop Zelena, I think the negligence was due to poor execution and not enough screen time between Emma and her parents having meaningful conversations. They don't seem to have that bad of a relationship. They were, after all, the reason Emma wanted to stay. If Emma has a problem with them not caring for her like they should, then she could talk with them. But that doesn't seem to be the case, because just a few episodes ago they were building cribs, hugging and fighting crime together sans pregnant Snow.

I agree. I don't doubt that Snow and Charming still love Emma very much, despite how they were portrayed in 3B. That is just who they are as people, and while I'm deeply disappointed at how the show has shown the Emma/Snow/Charming dynamic (or NOT shown their dynamic) in 3B, I don't think Emma blames them at all for dragging her back to be the "saviour" for her little brother.

Edited June 8, 2014 by Camera One

[Mari]

 

I agree. I don't doubt that Snow and Charming still love Emma very much, despite how they were portrayed in 3B. That is just who they are as people, and while I'm deeply disappointed at how the show has shown the Emma/Snow/Charming dynamic (or NOT shown their dynamic) in 3B, I don't think Emma blames them at all for dragging her back to be the "saviour" for her little brother.

Emma probably doesn't.  But Emma is a person who repeatedly experienced parental rejection.  A lot of kids who grow up with extremely bad or absent parents have such low expectations for how their parents treat them that as long as they're not actively being told "I hate you.  Go away." by the parent, they're sure everything's good.  The child could be horribly neglected and/or abused and as long as the parent wants them back, they often want to go.

 

Emma is not being abused by Snow and Charming, but her parental bar is most likely set so very low that as long as they are not actively trying to kill Henry and her, she's going to be okay with it.  For a concrete example of what she accepts as okay parenting--look at what she's accepted from Regina.

[Camera One]

Emma is not being abused by Snow and Charming, but her parental bar is most likely set so very low that as long as they are not actively trying to kill Henry and her, she's going to be okay with it.

I don't think Snow and Charming are anywhere near that horrible to Emma. And I don't think Emma has such low standards (except with Regina, but everyone has low standards with Regina). It was clear how proud Snow and Charming were of Emma in "Lost Girl" when she was trying to work the map Peter Pan gave her. It was clear how much Snow wanted to be there for Emma, but also wanted to give Emma the space she wanted in "Nasty Habits". It was obvious how much Snow and Charming wanted to believe that the events of "Going Home" could give Emma a happy life, even if it wasn't what she expected. While Emma did have a horrible childhood, I love that Emma is not weak enough to be jealous that her parents are more concerned over a newborn during a pregnancy where their baby is being threatened by a Wicked Witch.

Edited June 8, 2014 by Camera One

[stealinghome]

Yes, Hook could have traded the ship for a bean but without the memory potion don't you think that would have been rather pointless?

Neal apparently didn't think so. (Nor did Snow and Charming when they figured they'd just find a way to get Emma's memory back in Storybrooke, I suppose.)

 

Also, he was able to get that magic bean rather quickly... which at least implies that he had put the word out that he wanted a magic bean or some way to open up a portal beforehand.

I disagree. We have absolutely no indication that at any time Hook put the word out that he wanted to travel between realms. For all we know, despite what Adam and Eddie portrayed in S2 (when there were supposedly no more beans, so I'm not sure how Hook got one), there's a thriving black market trade in magic beans in Agrabah or some other land. Frankly, the fact that Hook acquired a bean so quickly can just as easily mean that they're actually really easy to come by if you know the right people.

 

Until the curse was cast, he couldn't get back to her even with a bean, at least according to the way they've now set up travel between their world and ours. He told Emma that once the curse was cast, the walls between our worlds came down and travel between the worlds was possible again, so he could get to her as long as he had a bean.

Didn't stop Neal from trying to find a way, though.

 

Look, I'm not saying that Hook (or Snow, or Charming) are bad people for wanting Emma to live her life in peace and happiness with Henry. Frankly, I find them all admirable for wanting to let Emma go to live a happier life. And I'm not saying that I like Swan Thief--still can't stand them. But my original point was simply that Hook was just as bad as Snow and Charming when it came to looking (or not looking, as the case may be) for Emma during the missing year. Whatever his feelings, just like Snowing, he didn't do anything to try to find her until necessity (a threat/curse) compelled him to try to break down the barriers between worlds and bring her to Storybrooke to help break the curse. He just resigned himself to never seeing Emma again and trying to go back to his old life. So I don't agree that Hook's actions show that he values Emma while Snowing don't, because they took the exact same actions. Really, the only person to make an effort to find Emma that was not prompted by imminent danger--the only person to say "screw what Regina said, I'm finding a way" (even if it was a total dumbass way)--was Neal. (Which, ugh, I can't believe I even just typed that. Shows you how screwy 3B was.)

Edited June 8, 2014 by stealinghome

[KAOS Agent]

I didn't have a problem with Hook trying to move on. He's not a magical being and doesn't have connections to one (as Neal did) and I also believe that he thought that Emma got her happy ending with a good life with her son in New York. I'd actually be annoyed if he'd gone after her and screwed that up for his own selfish reasons. He and Emma may have had a connection and he may have loved her, but she wasn't in that same place and honestly, after watching "Going Home" I thought they all ought to just leave Emma alone. We really have no idea what exactly was in the message, but Hook told Emma that it said she was their only hope. Hook knew that Emma would not want her family to suffer and die if there was a way she could help them and so once the walls were down and he had the ability to go find her and bring her back, he did. 

 

The issue I have with the way everyone handled their return to the Enchanted Forest is that we saw that Hook did indeed miss Emma. Just as we saw that Neal missed Emma & Henry. And we saw how much Regina missed Henry. We did not see Snow & Charming miss Emma and that's a huge problem. I know that Snow & David love Emma, but damn if they seem to care when she's not around. Why is it that the writers showed every other character missing their loved ones except Snow & Charming? 

[oliverwendell]

I didn't have a problem with Hook not trying to get back to Emma either, especially when you consider that his feelings were her were unreciprocated as far as he knew.  To him she was the unrequited love of his life who was magicked into forgetting he ever existed and was living happily in New York with her son.  He accepted that and tried to move on.  Makes sense to me.

 

Neal, on the other hand, wanted not only to reunite with Emma but with his son.  Also Emma had recently told him that she still loved him and always would.  There had been a pretty clear suggestion coming from her that the door to her heart was open to him at least a little.  Put all that together, mix in his connection to Rumple and access to dark magic, and I can see why he and not Hook was the one to fight the curse.

[Dani-Ellie]

One of the things I was looking forward to, was Snow and Charming reacting to losing Emma.  Except there was nothing.  The screentime was spent on how Regina reacting to losing Henry, that she wanted to bury her heart (in "New York City Serenade") and give herself a sleeping spell (in "Witch Hunt").  I wish there was a way to get across to the writers that this was not okay.

 

Exactly. Especially when you consider that they had Snow, of all people, talking Regina down from burying her heart by telling her she'd lost a daughter and a grandson. So they do recognize on some level that Snow and Charming should be hurting, too. Why is it only Regina's grief that warrants the screentime? Why not have a scene with Snow and Charming keeping it together in public but then falling apart in private over the fact that their daughter was taken from them a second time and that they'll never get to know their grandson? It wouldn't even need to be a long scene, for crying out loud. Just something.

 

Holy crap, I'm begging for scraps now. Ugh.

Edited June 8, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Mari]

Exactly. Especially when you consider that they had Snow, of all people, talking Regina down from burying her heart by telling her she'd lost a daughter and a grandson. So they do recognize on some level that Snow and Charming should be hurting, too. Why is it only Regina's grief that warrants the screentime? Why not have a scene with Snow and Charming keeping it together in public but then falling apart in private over the fact that their daughter was taken from them a second time and that they'll never get to know their grandson? It wouldn't even need to be a long scene, for crying out loud. Just something.

 

Holy crap, I'm begging for scraps now. Ugh.

Yes.  I understand that we're supposed to think of the Charmings as loving parents.  The problem is that after the Echo Cave scene, we haven't seen it--especially from Snow.  Snow made her confession about Baby Redo, and then Emma seemed to fall completely off her--and to a slightly lesser extent David's--emotional radar. 

 

Apparently, they did grieve and they were upset.  But it never happened on-screen, and if it doesn't happen on-screen, it isn't canon.   What they've shown on-screen is David and Snow being more interested in how Emma can do things for them, than in Emma herself, and the audience shouldn't have to fanwank that away. 

 

It doesn't matter to me that Emma's okay with their interest  being affectionate, but mostly disinterested, until they need her.  Parenting aside--since they're roughly the same age--that's not even good friendship behavior.

 

I don't think the show realizes it's even doing it-or it could be expecting to be able to address the relationship issue later--because the timelines is so screwy.  But if they've waited long enough that I'm not sure it's going to seem genuine or emotionally relevant when they do, and the season finale seemed to imply the showrunners thought the relationship problems were all one-sided.

Edited June 8, 2014 by Mari

[kili]

Frankly, the fact that Hook acquired a bean so quickly can just as easily mean that they're actually really easy to come by if you know the right people.

 

I'm beginning to think the guy is a bean magnet.

 

If they were really easy to come by if you know the right people, Rumple should have a box of them. The King of Deals knows how to cultivate the right people and people like Smee know to come to him. Rumple wants a bean and can't find it. Cora spends years in Wonderland probably dying for a bean and can't get one. She then stumbles around the Enchanted Forrest trying to come up with a plan to traverse worlds finally settling on a plan to use a compass and a burnt wardrobe. Blue says there are no other beans known to the Fairies. Hook? He finds and uses four beans.

 

Really, the only person to make an effort to find Emma that was not prompted by imminent danger--the only person to say "screw what Regina said, I'm finding a way" (even if it was a total dumbass way)--was Neal.

 

His plan is so very, very bad though. The only way his father found to traverse to our land was to manipulate somebody into murdering the one that they love. While Charming might willingly sacrifice himself to save his unborn child, why would anybody who wasn't manipulated murder they one they love the most to help Neal get back to Emma/Henry? It shows a supreme lack of understanding of both Emma and Henry to think they would be okay with that. They'll forgive you of course (they've forgiven worse), but I think knowing that somebody was tricked into killing their loved one soley so that Emma/Henry/Neal could go back to being a family would put a permanent stain on that relationship. It would just never feel completely worthy to Emma/Henry. They would feel guilty being the cause. Neal's total "I'm doing it - damn the consequences" was a little off kilter. And he's forcing his father back under the dark curse to do it which is actually quite a betrayal of himself and his father.

 

Neal effectively strapped a bomb to his chest and demanded that a plane fly to Cuba (somewhere normally barred from US carriers' routes) knowing that the co-pilot would be dead before they landed. Hook waited until he could get a passport, traveled to Canada and bought a plane ticket to Cuba. While Neal may have shown more commitment to the relationship, Hook's way was a lot more conducive to a normal relationship.

Edited June 8, 2014 by kili

[Rumsy4]

The writers acted as though Regina reversing the Dark Curse created an inseparable barrier between the worlds that could only be broken by reenacting it. Despite Emma telling him "Good", Hook realized that it was before she knew she would lose her memeries, and he had suffered enough from Dark Magic not to use it to selfishly get to Emma for his own sake. He even calls Neal a villain (I think) for having used Dark Magic to revive his father. Once the supposed barriers were down, and knowing that he had a chance to not only reunite with Emma, but also bring her back to her family and help save lives, he immediately set about finding a way to get to her.

As for why it had to be yet another "rare" Magic Bean, it's again because the writers like their parallels a little too much over continuity. Hook has used Magic Beans twice to try and get revenge, and now has used them twice to reunite Emma with her family (Henry in Neverland, her patents in Storybrooke).

Inversely, Rumple has almost always lost family when using Magic Beans (his father, little Bae, Neal falling through the Portal in Storybrooke). Even though he got to Neverland to save Henry through a Bean Portal, he still ended up sacrificing himself to save his family.

[Camera One]

Apparently, they did grieve and they were upset. But it never happened on-screen, and if it doesn't happen on-screen, it isn't canon. What they've shown on-screen is David and Snow being more interested in how Emma can do things for them, than in Emma herself

What we saw onscreen were the relevant scenes where Snow and Charming realized for the first time that Emma might be the only person in the world who is able to save their baby, which doesn't necessarily imply that they didn't care about Emma. I'm definitely angry about how they pushed the Charmings to the background and gave everyone else emotional scenes (especially Regina) on missing their loved ones, but it is also not fair to disregard what we already know and have seen from Snow and Charming in the past and then draw a conclusion which contradicts those basic tenets of their personality.

Why not have a scene with Snow and Charming keeping it together in public but then falling apart in private over the fact that their daughter was taken from them a second time and that they'll never get to know their grandson? It wouldn't even need to be a long scene, for crying out loud. Just something.

The actors who play Snow and Charming would have acted the hell out of that, for sure. But it goes back to their priorities being more about redemption of the villains.

[KingOfHearts]

I thought the whole Missing Year (which I was originally VERY excited about) was disappointing in many ways. Snowing not missing Emma or Henry felt out of character, especially immediately after the events of Going Home. For the sake of continuity, I can imagine they missed her off-screen. 

[Dani-Ellie]

For the sake of continuity, I can imagine they missed her off-screen.

 

My problem is I'm so tired of imagining all the Charming Family development off-screen. I want to see it, because skipping over it is so emotionally unsatisfying for me. There's a whole world of stuff that's happening in Off-Screen Storybrooke, and I'm so much more interested in that than I am what we're seeing, and it's frustrating.

 

I said this on TWoP, but I keep coming back to it: the writers shouldn't have written these situations if they had no interest in actually dealing with it. They're the ones who set up these problems and issues and then they get upset when portions of the audience complain that it's not dealt with. "Yes, it was!" they'll say and they'll point to something that took 20 seconds of screentime, as if those 20 seconds fixed everything. It's shallow writing. I mean, the family-friendly sitcoms of the 80s and 90s are considered contrived because all the world's problems are solved in 22 minutes. The writing for the Charming Family is no less contrived. Meanwhile, we get two episodes in which Regina's grief over the loss of Henry during the lost year is highlighted and we get absolutely nothing from Snow and Charming over the loss of Emma.

 

I just really wish there was a better balance to the story here. Because I'm sorry, but I don't watch for Regina and I've had her story shoved down my throat so much that my feelings have shifted from love-to-hate to ambivalence and now to active dislike. What I do care about is shoved aside for what I don't, and it's absolutely maddening.

Edited June 8, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Gel]

I always had the impression Neal was more bent out of shape trying to get back to Henry, "my son", than Emma. If the writers are doing parallels with any consistency, Neal is taking after Rumple in his own way, with his focus on getting back to Henry at any cost. Use kid Roland as bait, resurrect The Dark One? No problem. I had a moment of fear that when he went to resurrect the Dark One, he would become the Dark One himself, which would have been bad in many ways.

Edited June 8, 2014 by Gel

[stealinghome]

Because I'm sorry, but I don't watch for Regina and I've had her story shoved down my throat so much that my feelings have shifted from love-to-hate to ambivalence and now to active dislike. What I do care about is shoved aside for what I don't, and it's absolutely maddening.

ICAM, and all I can think of is Rumpel: "I'm certainly not here for the overpraised lasagna!" Heh.

[KingOfHearts]

My problem is I'm so tired of imagining all the Charming Family development off-screen. I want to see it, because skipping over it is so emotionally unsatisfying for me. There's a whole world of stuff that's happening in Off-Screen Storybrooke, and I'm so much more interested in that than I am what we're seeing, and it's frustrating.

 

I totally agree, Dani-Elle. The writers seem to be more interested in Point B than how we got there from Point A. Whenever I write fan fiction for Once, I'm always drawn to everyday life. All the dynamics going on in Storybrooke each and every day are a lot more intriguing than the Big Bad of the Half-Season. The main cast has enough exciting plot material on its own. You've got all these different kinds of people from all walks of life living in one small town with their own backstories and relationships. Surely SOMETHING is worth watching.

 

Relationships really are the lifeblood of the show - platonic, familial and romantic.

Edited June 8, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

My problem is I'm so tired of imagining all the Charming Family development off-screen. I want to see it, because skipping over it is so emotionally unsatisfying for me

 

Me too.  That's one of the biggest reasons I was so disappointed in 3B.  They didn't even throw us *one* crumb.  I summon Angry Birds to please descend upon the writer's room and deliver our message.

Edited June 8, 2014 by Camera One

[Dani-Ellie]

Whenever I write fan fiction for Once, I'm always drawn to everyday life. All the dynamics going on in Storybrooke each and every day are a lot more intriguing than the Big Bad of the Half-Season.

 

Same here. I have a series of stories that is pretty much all the family things the Charmings never got to do ... playing games and archery/sword lessons and family sleepovers, etc. Basically I just give them family time ... time to learn about each other and to get to know each other. And no, I don't need an entire episode of it, but a scene here and a scene there, emotional meaty healing stuff, isn't too much to ask for, I don't think. Instead it's just "problem problem problem Band-Aid *poof* all better." There's no depth, no weight to anything.

 

I'm sure it was not at all their intention to have Snow and Charming come across as selfish and uncaring by only mentioning Emma when they need her, but they did. My RL friend who watches the show and is not at all as into the Charming Family as I am thought Snow and Charming were being ridiculously selfish during "A Curious Thing." I don't think this was something that was localized to a select few factions of the audience. These are real audience reactions that could have been tempered with even the tiniest bit of attention to Snow's and Charming's grief in the previous episodes. A conversation here, a scene there, someone mentioning something that reminded them of Emma and them getting quiet ... at least then it wouldn't have appeared as if they only remembered they had a daughter out there somewhere because they needed her.

 

The impression that I get from what's onscreen is very different from what I want to believe. I want to believe that these parents, who'd missed their child's entire life, would be clinging to her and would be total messes because they'd lost her again. I know Snow and Charming love Emma, but that love does not always get translated onscreen, and therein lies my issue. Just because I know they love her doesn't mean I don't want to see it.

 

 

 

I summon Angry Birds to please descend upon the writer's room and deliver our message.

 

I love it. I'm all for taking up a collection and making it happen. ;)

Edited June 8, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Mari]

The impression that I get from what's onscreen is very different from what I want to believe. I want to believe that these parents, who'd missed their child's entire life, would be clinging to her and would be total messes because they'd lost her again. I know Snow and Charming love Emma, but that love does not always get translated onscreen, and therein lies my issue. Just because I know they love her doesn't mean I don't want to see it.

Yes.  I don't mind imagining MOST of the bonding and grief--filled moments, but in order for that to happen, I need to actually see tiny bits of those scenes occasionally happening on screen. 

 

It's especially glaring when you contrast it to us seeing every single self-indulgent tear Regina sheds.  Since the writers obviously recognize that parents miss their children, what are we supposed to take away from the Charmings not being interested-or seriously thinking about Emma-until they needed her to save the baby?

[Ariah]

I begin to think that the Charmings had very little time to actually miss Emma.

Emma had 28 years.

The Charmings lost her on day one - when she reappeared, just one day passed for them. Then, a whirlwind of adventure sucked everyone and there was no time to think. I don't believe the bond between Snow and Emma fully formed. I don't think she breaste-feeded little Emma and she only held her for a moment - biologically, the bond could be too weak. When Emma was lost to them again, she was quickly expecting nother, dream baby. And all the feelings she should have had for Emma went straight into the new baby.

I have read somewhere that something changes in the mind of a mother expecting a boy - that the child's tissues make their way into his mother's brain and change some structures permanently (this does not happen with girls). This may be the reason behind why some girsl feel their mothers prefer their brothers to them - because they actually do. It's biology. It's scary.

[KAOS Agent]

 

I begin to think that the Charmings had very little time to actually miss Emma.

 

I actually think this is the case. About five minutes after Emma was born, they were cursed/in a coma. The ensuing 28 years really were a haze for everyone and other than the few months after Emma came to town, I'm not sure anyone really remembers much or actively associates just how much time passed. For Emma, an entire lifetime of being lonely and feeling unwanted had gone by. In the Charmings' memories, all they'd think of was the baby that they remember putting in the wardrobe seemingly a short time ago. Even if Snow remembers all those years passing, she never spent them worrying or fretting about her baby girl because she didn't know she had one. So basically, you have a woman who remembers giving birth to a beautiful baby girl and was handed an angry, emotionally closed off woman in her place. I think in "Ariel" that idea is laid out when Snow laments missing experiencing Emma's childhood, even though she never actually had the time to miss Emma the person.

 

By the time Pan's curse separated them again, Snow had already twice given up on trying to be together as a family. Once when planning to return to the Enchanted Forest and once in Neverland. Which is why I get seriously pissed at her when she insists Emma stay in a dangerous place where she's unhappy because family, but not the point here. Anyway, since we've already seen Snow decide twice that she doesn't need Emma in her life, maybe on her return to the Enchanted Forest, she really didn't miss Emma much. She'd written that relationship off in the past and was more emotionally prepared to just get past it now. Emma was an adult and was doing her own thing, so give her baby do-over and she's good. I don't think it was the writers' intention to have me think they didn't care, but since that was what I saw on screen, this is the only reasoning I can come up with that explains Snow's ability to show no emotion about never seeing her daughter and grandson again.

[Rumsy4]

And yet she spends time bonding with the woman who ripped her away from her daughter and was responsible for Emma's hard life. She also names her son after the man who abandoned their daughter and sent her to jail. 3B has made me dislike Snow, and she used to be one of my favorites in S1.

[Mari]

Anyway, since we've already seen Snow decide twice that she doesn't need Emma in her life, maybe on her return to the Enchanted Forest, she really didn't miss Emma much. She'd written that relationship off in the past and was more emotionally prepared to just get past it now. Emma was an adult and was doing her own thing, so give her baby do-over and she's good. I don't think it was the writers' intention to have me think they didn't care, but since that was what I saw on screen, this is the only reasoning I can come up with that explains Snow's ability to show no emotion about never seeing her daughter and grandson again.

I have to agree.  I don't think it was the writers' intention, but I heard the Echo Cave speech as a write-off speech.  It came across as the official statement where Snow admits she's not really going to try in this relationship any more--and unfortunately, what they've shown on screen hasn't necessarily contradicted that.

[Dani-Ellie]

I don't think it was the writers' intention, but I heard the Echo Cave speech as a write-off speech.

 

Moving my response to the Past Seasons thread, because it fit there better.

[zumpie]

I always had the impression Neal was more bent out of shape trying to get back to Henry, "my son", than Emma. If the writers are doing parallels with any consistency, Neal is taking after Rumple in his own way, with his focus on getting back to Henry at any cost. Use kid Roland as bait, resurrect The Dark One? No problem. I had a moment of fear that when he went to resurrect the Dark One, he would become the Dark One himself, which would have been bad in many ways.

Agreed. I don't even think he really loved Emma all that much, just she came with the kid AND it made him feel better about himself to have her around to put down. However, what's most interesting in this entire dynamic is that even Neal knew Hook would actually be able to accomplish returning to Emma and that he, himself, never would. Because the depth of Hook's actual love and devotion was apparent even to his rival.

[YaddaYadda]

Well Hook basically told Neal that he would back off Emma for Henry's sake so that he can have a family.  I doubt he would have even said that to anyone who wasn't Neal given the whole thing with Milah.  I get the impression that the tongue lashing Hook got from Baelfire when he was on his ship about his family being torn apart might've left a bit of a bitter taste in Hook's mouth and he wasn't going to do that again or at least he wouldn't lift a finger until he knew Emma and Neal were pretty much dead as a couple.  He did tell Neal he was in this for the long haul after all.

 

I did get the sort of distinct impression "Quiet Minds" that Neal had a pretty good idea where Emma stood when it came to Hook, I think that's where the whole go find your Tallahassee (am I the only one who can't spell that word?) came from.  There was this whole thing when they were in Neal's hospital room when he asks to speak to Emma alone when she and Hook look at each other and she just nods at him and he leaves whoever was standing there with them.  I don't think Neal needed a drawing even if he might've had any kind of hopes when it came to Emma. 

[Camera One]

I begin to think that the Charmings had very little time to actually miss Emma.

 

This applied to the second Curse as well.  They felt they had just said goodbye to Emma at the Town Line.  Snow also woke up already 9 months pregnant, which would have been unsettling for her.  I don't like it, but to me, it explains why they were all about the new baby and less about Emma in 3B.  So many missed opportunities for Emma/Snow and Emma/Charming bonding since 3B would have been perfect for that after pointless trek after pointless trek in 3A.

[Serena]

Which is why the "each season is one week long" type of plotting screws with the characters' relationships. We see Snowing basically ignoring Emma for all of 3B and we judge them for it, but they were actually only preoccupied with the new baby for Snow's last week of pregnancy. But to us, it seemed like they ignored Emma for 3 months; instead it was a week.

 

On the other hand, Regina and Robin had also been dating for like 3 days when Marian came back, even though it seemed longer. So any kind of tantrum she throws over a one-week boyfriend should be ridiculous.

[legaleagle53]

To say nothing of the fact that most people (including Emma) probably had no idea that Regina and Robin were even dating.  Three days wouldn't have been nearly enough time for anyone to believe or even suspect that anything was going on between them, especially since they'd all been too busy worrying about what Zelena was up to to pay attention to anything else.

Edited June 11, 2014 by legaleagle53

[Shanna Marie]

On the other hand, Regina and Robin had also been dating for like 3 days when Marian came back, even though it seemed longer. So any kind of tantrum she throws over a one-week boyfriend should be ridiculous.

Yeah, that's what's so silly about the whole contrived "Marian's back!" drama situation. Robin and Regina had been on something like two dates before Marian showed up. I can't count the number of times I've gone on two dates with a guy only to never hear from him again other than to later hear through the grapevine that he went back to his ex (seriously, that's like the majority of my dating life -- I seem to have a gift for driving men back to the women they recently split from). It's mildly annoying, not tragic, not worthy of drama or revenge. That's not even enough of a relationship to require a real "breakup." You shrug and move on to someone who doesn't have that kind of baggage. The only thing that escalates this is that whole stupid fairy dust thing. I can't remember what the exact wording was -- is there a possibility that it could have been interpreted as Regina finding true love through Robin rather than with him? Because if she goes through some personal growth by having a setback without going nuts and is able to feel glad that Emma kept her from killing Marian so that Robin can have his wife, then that might be what sets Regina on a path to being able to have true love somewhere down the line with someone else.

[Camera One]

Robin and Regina had been on something like two dates before Marian showed up. I can't count the number of times I've gone on two dates with a guy only to never hear from him again other than to later hear through the grapevine that he went back to his ex

 

Really?  I like to hand over my heart after the first date.

[Shanna Marie]

Really?  I like to hand over my heart after the first date.

Oh, you have to hand over your heart even before the first real date, after the initial meet-cute. Otherwise, you might not get the chance before he goes back to his ex (though in my case, it was ex-girlfriends, not long-lost wives). Definitely hand over your heart before the first kiss.

 

You know, if they wanted me to feel bad for Regina about Marian's return, then maybe Emma shouldn't have been rescuing her from impending execution in Regina's dungeon. Emma could have impulsively stopped her from being run over by a carriage or foiled whatever it was in the failed job that Robin thought killed her, or something that had nothing to do with Regina. Regina has no room to gripe about anything if she was the one who killed/was going to kill Marian.

[Mari]

Regina has no room to gripe about anything if she was the one who killed/was going to kill Marian.

Well, no, but Regina's got those Mills' genes.  Having a reasonable and appropriate response to slights--imagined or otherwise--is not exactly something the Mills women have proven themselves capable of.

Edited June 11, 2014 by Mari

[Dani-Ellie]

You know, if they wanted me to feel bad for Regina about Marian's return, then maybe Emma shouldn't have been rescuing her from impending execution in Regina's dungeon.

 

Right?! Like, I'm sorry, Regina, but you don't get to be upset that your boyfriend's wife is back from the dead when you're the one who killed her in the first place. Regardless of the fact that Regina didn't know she'd killed Marian, that's a level of squick that I just cannot get behind or handwave away.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[KingOfHearts]

I totally understand Regina being upset, whether it's justified or not. She finally puts herself out there to open her heart up and change, then bam - it blows up in her face. It may not be right, but I find it's a natural reaction. At the time, she didn't even know she killed Marian.

 

I'm going to wait for S4 to see what happens after the initial reaction :)

Edited June 12, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

Regina being upset was understandable. That her immediate response to that upset was to tell Emma that she was just like her mother is highly problematic. They spent considerable time in 3B developing a bond between Snow & Regina both in the Missing Year and in present day Storybrooke. Having Regina immediately revert to blame casting and comparing it to Snow's past actions, in which the blame was so ridiculously misplaced anyway, rips away all of that relationship development because it showed that Regina still hasn't come to the realization that she was wrong and deep down she's still not over it and still blames Snow for ruining her life. Regina still doesn't get it. It's back to square one with the self awareness on Regina's part. 

[FormerMod-a1]

Your fine with the conversations going on here as they are about relationships.  This is more of an "FYI" since I saw "Regina".  I wanted to let you know that there is a new Villains topic here.

[retrograde]

I totally understand Regina being upset, whether it's justified or not. She finally puts herself out there to open her heart up and change, then bam - it blows up in her face. It may not be right, but I find it's a natural reaction. At the time, she didn't even know she killed Marian.

I agree, and I would even say that it might be natural for other to act reflexively with some sympathy. I think it will be more telling how the both she and the other characters react once they've had a bit of time to think everything through and know all the facts.

[KingOfHearts]

Regina still doesn't get it. It's back to square one with the self awareness on Regina's part. 

 

The writers might have put that in there to make it ambiguous as to whether Regina changes or not - stirring the pot until we find the truth in S4. Keep controversy going. They were also trying to draw a parallel between it and the Stable Boy. The consequences speech was a stupid thing to say, but it was in the moment. It caught Regina by surprise. It probably came from the realization that her love has been taken from her by Charmings... twice.

 

I'm going to wait until I see how she handles the situation in S4 to make any judgements, personally.

Edited June 12, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

The writers might have put that in there to make it ambiguous as to whether Regina changes or not - stirring the pot until we find the truth in S4. Keep controversy going. They were also trying to draw a parallel between it and the Stable Boy. The consequences speech was a stupid thing to say, but it was in the moment. It caught Regina by surprise. It probably came from the realization that her love has been taken from her by Charmings... twice.

 

I'm going to wait until I see how she handles the situation in S4 to make any judgements, personally.

I guess the problem I have with this is that her love wasn't taken from her by the Charmings.  Daniel was taken from Regina by her mother--who Regina was just fine teaming up with later to attack the Charmings.  Regina blaming Snow, a tweener who had lost a beloved mother and was trying to do something nice for Regina, for being manipulated by someone who was able to manipulate Rumple?  Well, that's Insane Troll Logic.

 

They might've just been stirring the pot for the summer, but it does play into Regina's pattern of immediately blaming people she sees as easy targets;  it's not like the Charmings have treated her to nearly what she deserves.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Mari

[Dani-Ellie]

It probably came from the realization that her love has been taken from her by Charmings... twice.

 

But it hasn't, though. Cora killed Daniel, not Snow. Snow was a sheltered little girl and had no way of knowing that telling Cora about Daniel would lead Cora to kill him. Snow thought she was helping, as did Emma. What Emma did was trickier, as she'd been told not to mess with the timeline, but everyone's fear about messing with the timeline was messing up the past. No one thought that bringing this woman forward was going to screw anything up in the present. And I still maintain that if Marian hadn't screwed up Outlaw Queen, the reunion of the Hood family would have been celebrated and what Emma had done would have been seen as this wonderfully amazing thing.

 

But since it messes with Regina, there's gnashing of teeth and rending of garments.

 

I get Regina being upset, I really do. My problem is that her first reaction is always to blame the easiest target. My problem is that she lectures others about consequences without taking into consideration that maybe she has to take some responsibility, too.

 

I really, really hope that the knowledge that she would have killed Marian and that she's the one who took Robin's wife and Roland's mother away from them is what puts the human face on all her prior nastiness for her. I really, really hope it gives her a clue. But based on past history with this show and things the showrunners have said in interviews, I'm also planning for the possibility that it's only going to be a pipe dream of mine and that we're going to get yet another poor victimized Regina story out of this.

[KingOfHearts]

I was speaking from Regina's perspective. In her eyes, it was the Charmings both times.

 

We don't even know if Regina actually killed Marian. We'll get the true details of that in S4.

Edited June 12, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

 

I was speaking from Regina's perspective. In her eyes, it was the Charmings both times.

 

But I thought that was kind of the point of "Bleeding Through". Regina & Snow were bonding over the realization that it wasn't all cut and dried and even Regina said that it was complicated. I have a really hard time with the Snow/Regina relationship as it is considering how Regina utterly destroyed Emma's life, but if they want to go down that path, they at least need to have Regina understand just how messed up it was to blame Snow. Knee jerk reactions like the one she had with Emma tell the real tale on Regina's perspective over the whole Daniel incident and since it apparently hasn't changed, I just can't with the idea of Snow & Regina continued bonding. 

[KingOfHearts]

I agree, KAOS Agent. 

 

I thought the consequence speech was stupid from a writer's perspective. It was an inconsistency in Regina's development. (Much like everything else in her development...) Lashing out at Emma felt very Mayor Mills. The "changed" Regina I saw through 3B would have been upset, but not referencing the Stable Boy. She would have been saying maybe "I can't believe this!" and maybe storming out in frustration. I don't blame the character - I blame the writing.

 

I hope Snow and Regina keep bonding. Bleeding Through almost got Snow an apology!

[Camera One]

But I thought that was kind of the point of "Bleeding Through". Regina & Snow were bonding over the realization that it wasn't all cut and dried and even Regina said that it was complicated.

 

Exactly.  Even if it was a knee-jerk reaction, she could have expressed anger without bringing Snow into it.  Using Snow as a prop for Regina's redemption was one emotional arc they *did* spend time on, but that single line to Emma erased any progress made.  And when an entire episode was spent on that said progress, what a waste.  

[Dani-Ellie]

We don't even know if Regina actually killed Marian. We'll get the true details of that in S4.

 

The thing is, I'm not so sure that she who gleefully lit Snow up like a Christmas tree was going to let her prisoners go come morning.

 

This goes back to my issue with the writers wanting to have it both ways. They want Enchanted Forest Regina to be the most evil queen who'd ever eviled, but then, since they've got her on a redemption track, they turn around and want us to give her the benefit of the doubt. I'm sorry, but after seeing the mounds of bodies in that village that she ordered massacred simply because no one would help her with her vendetta or that pile of bones of all the children she sent to the Blind Witch's house to retrieve the apple, I can't give her the benefit of the doubt. In my eyes, she fully earned her Evil Queen moniker, and no amount of backpedaling or ignoring the consequences is going to make me unsee what they've had her do.

 

Either way, whether she was going to kill Marian or not, she did separate Robin from his wife and Roland from his mother. Even if Marian left the home voluntarily for whatever reason, by holding her prisoner, Regina was denying the woman the chance to return. And putting her on death row for, again, not helping her track down and kill another person was reprehensible. And yeah, I get it, Evil Queen, but then don't turn around and expect me to feel bad that Regina's lost her chance at love with the husband of a woman she'd held prisoner and whom you totally fully implied that she was supposed to execute, writers.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[ShadowFacts]

 

I get Regina being upset, I really do. My problem is that her first reaction is always to blame the easiest target. My problem is that she lectures others about consequences without taking into consideration that maybe she has to take some responsibility, too.

 

It's what a sociopath does, which is what Regina is.  She does not have one remotely healthy relationship.  She's 100% responsible for the Marian situation but she immediately reverts to deflecting that to someone else, who then immediately acts contrite.  Aside from Belle who is enmeshed in her own toxic relationship, and the occasional snappy comment from Granny or Grumpy, everyone just lets the Poor Regina show continue.  It's not entertaining to watch.