Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[YaddaYadda]

My issue with R&R is that Robin came off as someone who needed to get laid (the way that first kiss played was just painful for me) and Regina would never have gone there if she hadn't seen that ridiculous tattoo.  Regina spent a whole year in the Enchanted Forest hating on him and he wasn't too keen on her either.  I hate insta-love so much!

[kili]

We don't even know if Regina actually killed Marian.

A person who killed an entire village for not helping her find Snow doesn't seem the sort to randomly let people out of her dungeon when they've been publicly paraded around as an example of what happens when you help Snow.

 

First, why the sudden leniancy? If you happily kill an entire village, what's one more random villager? What is the possible motivation? Second, it sends the wrong message. The entire point of parading Marian around is to scare villagers into helping her find Snow (her goal here is to find Snow not necessarily to fill her dungeons). If she lets Marian go the next day, word is going to leak out that the Evil Queen is all bark and no bite. People will just ignore her demands which is certainly not what she wants.

 

The only way I can see Marian not dying at Regina's hand is if she escaped, but it doesn't change the apparent fact that Regina was fully prepared to kill her. And that should be a problem for a man supposedly as honorable as Robin.

 

I just can't see how the writers expect the average viewer to celebrate Robin chosing Marian's executioner over Marian. It might have been an easier sell if it had been Robin chosing Formerly Evil Marian over some random character (since we know Robin and Marian as True Loves from forever in books, movies, etc), but not the other way around.  The only way they'll get the viewers to swallow that bitter pill is to kill Marian and I'm going to gag on that pill as Marian gives her blessing to the relationship.

 

I really hope that the writers back away from this storyline. It just feels so wrong. I'll happily accept a retcon of the pixie dust reveal (just have Rumple messing with it. Or lay the groundwork for evil Blue who set a trap suspecting Tink would take the stuff and it was evil pixie dust, not the real stuff) rather than grit my teeth through Robin Hood dumping Maid Marian for Regina. That story makes me cringe. We've seen Robin and Marian devoted, noble and in love. They are one of the most beloved True Love couples from English legend. It is not a good twist to break them up as a reward for Regina. Find another dude for her. How about Captain Phoebus from Hunchback? Or Hercules? (Regina can double up as Meg who was a few shades of grey anyway). Or Kronk from the Emperor's New Groove? Come on, he's a great guy and would help chill her out. Plus, he knows how to talk to Woodland creatures and is a FANTASTIC cook. Mulan's Shang apparently needs a new love interest and he's pretty hot.

[YaddaYadda]

The only way they'll get the viewers to swallow that bitter pill is to kill Marian and I'm going to gag on that pill as Marian gives her blessing to the relationship.

 

I'll be in the minority because I'm neither swallowing that pill nor am I drinking the kool-aid for this one.  Just no.  It would have been one thing if they had left Marian be, but they brought her back.

 

I remember when I was 16-17, I read a Robin Hood novel (I can't remember the title), but at the end Marian is mortally wounded  by one of Nottingham arrows and it's all because of Robin.  And Robin carries her into the forest and she's dying with every step he takes and I just remember being so completely heart broken and bawling my eyes out and how I couldn't stop thinking about Robin and just how much he loved her, real, true love and his last words to her when she closed her eyes and died.

 

I was completely heartbroken for days over that.  And even when I think of it now, I still feel like curling in a ball and crying,

 

So just no.  This is one instance where I'll just close my eyes and pretend like none of this is happening.  I know the Once universe plays fast and loose with everything, but I can't accept Robin and Regina as a couple now that Marian is back.

[Rumsy4]

I was not caring too much about Outlaw Queen, but nodding along, until the finale. Now, I just don't want Regina to get her Happy Ending at the cost of yet another of her victims again. Even Robin and Roland are her victims, because she had deprived them of Marian by killing her in one timeline, and is still morally responsible for thier loss even though Emma and Hook rescued her in the new timeline. I just can't root for Regina/Robin as things stand. We shall see...

[Serena]

My issue with R&R is that Robin came off as someone who needed to get laid (the way that first kiss played was just painful for me) and Regina would never have gone there if she hadn't seen that ridiculous tattoo.  Regina spent a whole year in the Enchanted Forest hating on him and he wasn't too keen on her either.  I hate insta-love so much!

Yeah, they had the perfect opportunity to develop them slowly in the Year Without Emma, maybe without her ever seeing the tattoo, then when she gets her memories back, the "insta-love" would be explained and not be so "insta" - and they decided to have them bicker instead?! I don't know if the bickering was supposed to be similar to Snow and Charming's in Snow Falls, but Snowing's was - well, charming - and Outlaw Queen's was just mean spirited (on her part; he was just a doormat). I don't know if it's because the writing was not on the level of Snow Falls, or because Parilla and McGuire couldn't inject the necessary charm into it, but it just didn't work.

 

But I think the #1 problem with OQ is that Robin is not just a character. He's a cardboat cutout "handsome man who worships Regina because she just deserves that sooo much", except "worships Regina" is his only personality trait.

[Shanna Marie]

Although I can't deal with Robin and Regina, what with the whole her executing (or planning to) his wife thing, I'm starting to think that the Marian who risked death rather than rat out an innocent woman she hadn't even met can do way better than the Robin who doesn't think the Evil Queen who had him on wanted posters was all that evil just because she has a nice ass.

 

The defining trait of Robin Hood in most of the more popular stories is that he was standing up against an unjust, cruel tyrant. Even if Regina wasn't the unjust, cruel tyrant he was rebelling against, you'd think he'd be against unjust, cruel tyrants in principle, regardless of how they look in tight skirts. Saving a very small and extremely adorable child from a flying monkey is a baseline for decent human behavior and possibly a starting point for seeing her in a different light, but it's not a major sign that the woman who slaughtered villages and executed people to set examples isn't as bad as he'd heard. Since they haven't bothered giving this Robin any traits at all, all I can go with is what's defined in the stories, and that means he's acting wildly out of character here. Maybe it's like that Russel Crowe version and he isn't really the real Robin Hood but is stepping into that role, only instead of the original version sucking and the imposter being the one who can get stuff done, it's the other way around.

[KingOfHearts]

A person who killed an entire village for not helping her find Snow doesn't seem the sort to randomly let people out of her dungeon when they've been publicly paraded around as an example of what happens when you help Snow.

 

You're assuming that everything Marian said was true. Her story doesn't line up with Robin's, nor the original source material. She may not even be the real Marian, but a shapeshifter to bait Emma. I'm not going to assume anything until I see S4. Sorry, I just can't jump on the bandwagon on this one. As logical as it is, this is a major plot point. And with major plot points come twists. I'm not going to pin blame on Regina until I know she actually did it.

 

I personally don't like the Marian thing at all. Nobody wins. Not even Outlaw Queen should have happened. But here we are. The whole thing is the most contrived story this show has ever done in its history.

Edited June 12, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Dani-Ellie]

I'm not going to pin blame on Regina until I know she actually did it.

Seeing Regina parade Marian around with a burlap sack over her head, using her an example to the villagers for what happens to someone who protects Snow, and then seeing Marian later in the Queen's dungeon was proof enough for me. Even if Regina wasn't going to execute Marian, she imprisoned this woman. She still kept her from returning to her family, and she should still have to deal with the consequences of that action.

 

If this is a plot twist, it's a really bad one, because I shouldn't have to do all kinds of mental gymnastics to make the twist fit.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[kili]

You're assuming that everything Marian said was true.

 

I don't have to assume that Marian is telling me the truth. I saw Regina order the killing of an entire village and I saw their bodies. I saw  her see those bodies. I saw Regina parading a woman pleading for her life in front of a bunch villagers. I heard Regina telling the villagers that this is what happens to people who help Snow. I have seen Regina gleefully carrying out an execution herself.

 

The show has shown us all this. I don't see how Regina letting this "show prisoner" go the next day helps  her cause of getting people to stop helping Snow.  "Oh, she's just going to put you in the dungeon for a few days and then you get to come home. Don't worry about it." Is that what she wants people to think? I don't think so.  Later the next day, Regina kills trolls for bringing her bad news. She snaps the necks of soldiers that fail her. She enslaves a huntsman for thirty years for not doing her bidding. She kills entire villages for helping Snow. She curses entire realms and kills her father to punish a tween that told a secret. That Regina just puts her enemies in a time out for a few days? Nope, not consistent.

 

I'd rather Marian die than be a shape shifter (Zelena or otherwise - Zelena is pretty lame-o in the revenge department, but stealing her sister's guy just because is totally one of the lamer moments she would have. What is she going to do next? Replace the sugar with salt so that Regina's apple pies don't turn out?).

 

I just don't think that Regina/Robin have such amazing chemistry (it's fine...it's not off the chart) that they need to keep pursuing that story. The show-runners might have thought it was a fun kick-in-the-pants to have Marian come back to life, but I think it was a kick-in-the-nuts to that storyline. Sometimes, their twists cause too much damage to recover from. I was squicky on Robin and Regina being true loves to start with. After this? I'm going to need some seriously awesome writing to convince me not to roll my eyes at this couple. Find Regina another guy and let Robin be Robin.

[KingOfHearts]

What's more important is how Regina reacts to this. I hope she gets over it fast - and she will.

 

And for the record, I never said Regina let Marian go. It could have been very well she escaped or got rescued by Robin. 

 

(And this is why time travel should never have been introduced in the show.)

Edited June 12, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Dani-Ellie]

It could be very well she escaped or Robin rescued her.

 

But Robin thought she was dead. Original Timeline Robin said so to Regina in the beginning of "Snow Drifts" and New Timeline Robin said, "I thought you were dead" to Marian at the end of "There's No Place Like Home." If Robin rescued her, he wouldn't have been available to hook up with Regina in the first place.

 

Now maybe in the original timeline she did escape and was killed by someone else. That doesn't negate the fact that Regina imprisoned her and then sentenced her to death.

[kili]

And for the record, I never said Regina let Marian go. It could have been very well she escaped or got rescued by Robin.

 

If Robin had to rescue Marian from Regina's dungeon (and she dies later from something else), he should not be thinking Regina as "Bold and audacious".  He has no excuse for not  knowing how bad she is. After listening to your wife tell you that she was terrorized and imprisoned by that woman, you know she is evil.

 

And even if Marian escaped and never made it back to Robin, it doesn't change that Regina was intending on killing her and that should be a deal breaker to most normal people. It's one thing to have detente with her for the sake of peace. It's another thing to madly in love with your beloved wife's torturer/intended executioner. You certainly don't leave your wife for her.

Edited June 12, 2014 by kili

[KingOfHearts]

We'll see what happens in S4.

Edited June 12, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

 Maybe it's like that Russel Crowe version and he isn't really the real Robin Hood but is stepping into that role, only instead of the original version sucking and the imposter being the one who can get stuff done, it's the other way around.

So Robin Hood is like the Dread Pirate Roberts, except the new Robins don't have to live up to the old Robins' mission?  It makes me laugh a little, but I still want to make Robin watch--with Marian--every nonnaked Regina moment, so he can explain to his wife exactly how come killing people like Marian was fodder for a terrible come-on line.

 

You're assuming that everything Marian said was true. Her story doesn't line up with Robin's, nor the original source material. She may not even be the real Marian, but a shapeshifter to bait Emma.

Given some of the writers' choices, it's not completely impossible, but why would a shape-shifter refuse to tell Regina where Snow was? 

[KAOS Agent]

How would a shape shifter arrange to get paraded around by Regina in front of Emma/Hook when no one knew they were there, then later somehow know that Emma would be arrested by the Evil Queen and thrown into the dungeon right next to her, know that Emma could break out on her own, would be willing to spend the time to break out the woman next to her and then come up with the plan to take her back to the future with her? It doesn't fly with me.

 

The main issue with Robin/Regina is that at this point all Marian would tell Robin is that Regina tortured her and sentenced her to death. There is no original timeline. If the writers try to show flashbacks to the timeline that was but now isn't because Marian was now not there for that to happen, it doesn't work. I don't care if she escaped or was set free (though Lana confirmed that the writers told her that Regina had executed Marian). This is the story they have now. So if Robin hangs out with this "bold and audacious" woman who did these terrible things to his wife and the mother of his child, I just can't handle it. It's not how Regina handles things that I care about. Regina wants Robin because pixie dust said he belongs to her. I care about how Robin reacts and the story they've given to me will never work as a true love match. I'm sure Season 4 will have the writers doing everything they can to make Outlaw Queen happen, but they'll pretty much have to make it so that the real Regina was locked in a tower this whole time and the Evil Queen was actually the shape-shifter for me to even consider going along with breaking up a canonical true love pairing for Regina. That said, given the Robin I've seen on Once, Marian deserves better. If she hooks up with some really great Storybrooker, I'd be down with watching that love story play out.

[Rumsy4]

That said, given the Robin I've seen on Once, Marian deserves better. If she hooks up with some really great Storybrooker, I'd be down with watching that love story play out.

 

Some people were shipping her with Archie. She will probably need lifelong therapy after she finds out that her husband has been having...er..."relations" with the Evil Queen, anyway. So, it might work out. ;-) Also, I hope she never drinks the Woegina kool-aid! 

Edited June 12, 2014 by Rumsy4

[InsertWordHere]

Even if Regina somehow never killed Marian (or a Marian lookalike who still had done nothing that deserved a death sentence) in the original timeline, since Emma took Marian out of that timeline, there's really no way to be sure. No one remembers the original timeline. I think she did kill her but Robin never knew the truth.

 

Some people were shipping her with Archie.

Jiminy Vixen? Cricket Maid?

[stealinghome]

Red!

[KingOfHearts]

The more I think about it, the more I want Outlaw Queen to stop existing. It causes sooo much unnecessary soap opera drama. I'm all for Regina finding love some day, but not today. She's not at the point yet where she can put someone else first. It's still all about her. 

 

It would do a world of good to her arc if she's able to overcome her loss and forgive Emma - almost life changing. The reason for the Evil Queen even coming to fruition was because of Regina's grudge toward Snow. If she could let something go and think of someone else for once, my respect for her character and writing would go way up. Marian might be a blessing in disguise.

[myril]

Agreed, Regina still has some way to go, but disagree a bit about that she's not there yet to find love.

 

But I have a different view on love than fairy tales, to me it's not the prize to win but the way to go, a process, a daily never ending challenge. Love is not the apple to pick but the apple tree to grow and to maintain. Interestingly Regina has been attending to an apple tree, remember season 1. What has become of that tree btw? She had Henry and she had the apple tree and one could wonder who she cared more about sometimes. And remember how she dreamt of being bound to an apple tree on mainstreet, and Emma squashed one apple showing how rotten they were? There was so much in that image. Apples, come on. They made Regina show up with a whole basket of apples and offering Emma one (while Emma was just out of bed and wearing  underwear) - that moment I was sure a new queer ship was born (although even in the pilot there were moments nudging it). Guess they never really looked into the depth of apple symbolism.

 

Yes, Marian could be a blessing in disguise. Though I would prefer Regina and Robin being just a temporary couple. Frankly, otherwise I can understand more and more that SwanQueen shippers are ranting, that Robin is more or less just a bad male version of Emma. If he and Regina get together, now that we know Regina had the intention to execute Marian for not betraying Snow, and probably did in the erased timeline, it would weaken significantly one of the good arguments against any romance between Regina and Emma: The fact, that Regina created so much suffering in Emma's life, taking away family for her for so long. Regina did something alike to Robin, taking away his wife, the same to Roland by taking away his mother, though at least father and son had still each other and support by friends and other family in the Enchanted Forest. Still. No double standards.

Edited June 13, 2014 by katusch

[KingOfHearts]

Emma and Rumple have a very unique relationship on the show. I love watching them work together. They get crap done.

 

While everyone else is debating morality and/or getting emotional, Emma and Rumple go at it. They're usually the straight-talking voices of logic, which is a very serious need on the show. Even if the solution is sordid or murky, it's not a problem for them.

 

I also like them working together because they're so similar to each other. They were both given up as children and grew up in poor conditions. It made them street-smart with a "trust no one" attitude. In a world of fairy dust, princesses and munchkins, a bottom line cynicism keeps things held together.

 

Rumple seems to have a special platonic liking to Emma. He shows her favor in his deal-making, and he's more willing to work with her than a lot of other people. Most people who work with Rumple get turned into snails, but he seems to like having Emma on his side. She is basically the only one who isn't afraid of him, which makes their relationship all the more fascinating and enjoyable.

Edited June 23, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[BoPeeps]

Horowitz and Kitsis have dug not just a hole, but an entire bunker the width of Storybrooke with this plot twist.

Even understanding the whole premise of ONCE is to fracture fairy tales, this fracture (of messing with Robin Hood and Maid Marian) could lead to a snapped bone or two, crippling the show deeply. They have to tread very carefully here.

This isn't just faux juggling an unbalanced triangle between Emma and Hook and a weirdly out of his league/element Neal. This is an absolute ICON of Romantic Love they are messing with. One they have supported with their story thus far and with Robin's present day declarations of love for Marian...the absolute love of his life.

They've developed a fairly likeable coupling with Robin and Regina, who despite her wretched history and actions, is easy enough to enjoy, or even cheer on.

They've given Marian a highly respected and rich character in her background. And now...

They've threatened a highly loved and cherished couple with some really ugly consequences for everyone involved.

Unless they totally respect all three characters, they are screwed.

So in essence, they are screwed.

 

It will have to be some mindless/off the wall and backsliding magic that will fix his. But even so, sending Marion back into the past to a most certain death at the hands of Regina is not exactly a fix!

[patchwork]

In all honesty I want Robin, Marian and Roland to ride off into the sunset together and get their HEA but I could accept a storyline based on the idea that you can't cheat death. When it's really your time one way or another you die. 

 

Regina trying to be noble and help Marian would give the writers the Regina angst they love so much plus we might even avoid the Emma shaming I'm worried is heading our way. 

[KAOS Agent]

They've threatened a highly loved and cherished couple with some really ugly consequences for everyone involved. Unless they totally respect all three characters, they are screwed. So in essence, they are screwed.

 

Here's the thing. It is not just Robin/Regina/Marian. There is a very young child involved in this as well. Both cast and showrunners have ignored the Roland issue completely when addressing their comments on the topic. I find this to be serious problem because anything that happens to Marian will heavily affect her son. I know a lot of people hated Hook & Neal discussing who got to "get" Emma first (it's completely and totally Emma's choice, boys), but Hook's motivation for backing off was solely due to Henry. There was an actual acknowledgement that Henry was part of the equation. I can only hope the writers are considering the young boy caught in the middle of their stupid soap opera twist.

Edited June 23, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[BoPeeps]

Agree, Kaos, you are right... it IS a very serious problem.

 

Henry was a cute ten year old with a very vivid and focused goal as well as a stubbornly *mature* and independent attitude. Little Roland is the new, much younger cute kid with so much more that will be thrown at him, and so much less understanding of what is going on.

That hole they dug just got several meters deeper.

 

I would assume that the "Happily Ever After" relationship for Roland will be with his Mama.

 

Jaysus H. this is not looking good for ANY solution.

[Serena]

While I am very anti-OQ, I don't think Roland is so much of a problem. He seems an happy, well-adjusted kid; I'm sure he'll continue to be happy even if his parents split amicably and Robin and Regina get together. I don't feel that's a problem.

What IS a problem, and I'm sure the writers will completely gloss over, is:

• does Roland realize that Regina was the reason he was without his mom for his childhood so far?
• Regina has an history of doing very bad things to children who refuse to me parented by her (Hansel and Gretel, Greg/Owen, ...) will that come up?
• If Marion dies because "she was supposed to die", the reason she was supposed to die was because Regina killed her. So if Roland loses his mother again, will he hold Regina accountable? Will he play happy families with her? How can Robin ask that of him?

 

If this had been a simply case of "Roland's parents grow apart, his father finds a new partner" I would say, whatever, as soon as you keep respecting each other as co-parents, do what you want. This is a big more complicated than that.

[ShadowFacts]

 

If Marion dies because "she was supposed to die", the reason she was supposed to die was because Regina killed her. So if Roland loses his mother again, will he hold Regina accountable? Will he play happy families with her? How can Robin ask that of him?

 

How can Robin ask that of himself, I mean, would he even want to?  However Marian exits the picture, if she does, it is all on Regina.  I don't get the pairing to begin with, but when Robin takes it all in, how in the hell would he want anything to do with Regina?  He doesn't currently know that Regina is responsible for Roland being motherless, but when he does, that has to be a fatal blow to the relationship with Regina.  Even if she is uncharacteristically super remorseful.

[BoPeeps]

Regina was quick to turn on Emma and accuse her of not thinking of the consequences of her actions, *just like her mother*~ when she really should have been saying those bitter words to herself. The consequences of her actions are that she is responsible for the cold blooded murder of Marian. Cold blooded murder~just like her mother, Cora, practiced habitually.

 

Projection, beloved wicked one. Projection.

 

Fasten your seat belts...bumpy ride ahead.

[Shanna Marie]

He seems an happy, well-adjusted kid; I'm sure he'll continue to be happy even if his parents split amicably and Robin and Regina get together.

How happy would he be if his mother returned from being supposedly dead, his family looked like it was going to be miraculously reunited, and then his dad decided he didn't want to be with his mom? That would be really hard for a kid to understand and accept. Archie better clear his calendar because he's going to have a new patient who's very mixed-up.

 

Regina was quick to turn on Emma and accuse her of not thinking of the consequences of her actions, *just like her mother*~ when she really should have been saying those bitter words to herself.

That makes a nice (although perhaps unintentional) callback to "The Heart is a Lonely Hunter," in which Regina tried to blame all her problems on Emma -- it was Emma's fault that Henry was mad at Regina and that Graham wanted to split up. At least back then Emma was allowed to have the gumption to tell Regina that she was the cause of her own problems, that if her relationships weren't working, Regina, and not Emma, was at fault.

[stealinghome]

At least back then Emma was allowed to have the gumption to tell Regina that she was the cause of her own problems, that if her relationships weren't working, Regina, and not Emma, was at fault.

Oh man, to have Season 1 Emma back. Season 1 Snow, too!

[Camera One]

Not to mention Season 1 Henry.

[KingOfHearts]

One big difference between Captain Swan and Outlaw Queen is that CS was allowed to happen organically, while OQ was deemed destiny from the start. CS came from the chemistry of the actors, not a contrived pixie dust notion. OQ is much more manufactured than any other relationship on the show. There's nothing for Regina when it comes to Robin. He has nothing to offer her. I want to know how the two spent an entire year despising each other, only to fall in love once Regina saw the tattoo in Storybrooke. They don't mix at all.

 

CS works because Hook and Emma need each other. Emma needs that sense of fantasy and adventure in her life, which Hook encompasses. Hook needs a strong woman who doesn't swoon from a simple flirt like his groupies at the tavern. He needs someone with rough edges to work with - he likes a challenge. On the flip side, they both have major similarities as well. They were both abandoned as children and had hard lives. Neither of them put up with crap. They also have an incredible sense of wit and tenacity.

 

There's really nothing in common between Robin and Regina. Regina was a royal, Robin was a thief. Robin is a cheerleader, Regina is a snark. Robin is a good-natured boy scout, Regina is hell hath no fury. The scenes we saw OQ together mostly just involved making out and flirting. It's pretty clear that Regina is still only interested in the physical part of a relationship.

 

At the beginning, I really wanted them to work. But I haven't seen that happen yet.

Edited June 29, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Wandering1]

I found the difference between Outlaw Queen and CS was that Outlaw Queen had two people who were attracted to each other and were BOTH interested in developing a relationship. CS sends a disturbing message to fans, but it is a simple ship to ignore so I don't see a big deal with it.

[retrograde]

There's really nothing in common between Robin and Regina. Regina was a royal, Robin was a thief. Robin is a cheerleader, Regina is a snark. Robin is a good-natured boy scout, Regina is hell hath no fury. The scenes we saw OQ together mostly just involved making out and flirting. It's pretty clear that Regina is still only interested in the physical part of a relationship.

I agree, but I don't think that had to be a problem with the pairing. "Opposites attract" couples can work great on TV, and that is where I thought they were going with this initially. I think if Robin had more time to be fleshed out, and was more of a strong-willed, independent character in his own right, it could have been fun to watch him and Regina clash heads. I'm definitely a sucker for the kinds of stories where the protaganists hate each other while falling in love. They just didn't play it that way -- they didn't make Robin a strong enough character to begin with, and largely hand-waved all the differences and contradictions between the pair, anyway.

[Serena]

There's really nothing in common between Robin and Regina. Regina was a royal, Robin was a thief. Robin is a cheerleader, Regina is a snark. Robin is a good-natured boy scout, Regina is hell hath no fury. The scenes we saw OQ together mostly just involved making out and flirting. It's pretty clear that Regina is still only interested in the physical part of a relationship.

And the thing is, being opposites is not a dealbreaker in a relationship, especially in television. Those can be fun. They just never went there with OQ because they were too concerned about turbo-speeding it so they could have their finale "twist". And Robin came off as deluded.

 

EDIT: retrograde, I think we posted the exact same thing about opposites attracting at the same time!

Edited June 29, 2014 by Serena

[KingOfHearts]

Relationships require both opposites and similarities to work. Like retrograde said, the "opposites attract" trope didn't pan out because Robin wasn't a full character. He was bland and didn't bring much to the table. He doesn't bring anything new to Regina - he's only another cheerleader to add to her legion of yesmen.

 

Now if Robin called Regina on her crap, spoke for the poor, and set her straight, then he'd be gold. Relationships need to be challenging. All other relationships on the show have this quality. OQ doesn't. I've always seen Robin Hood (prior to Once) as clever and crafty. But here, he's just a hero for the very kind of person he usually antagonizes. It's like the writers threw in this juxtaposition between an evil tyrant and a daring revolutionary just for fun.

Edited June 30, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[maryle]

First I like all the couples on the show, but hope it does not turn more soapy that it is already is, the story should what drive the show not all the ship it was the stretch in season one. Now the couple that I struggle Le most is rumple and belle. Probably because the age difference and the fact that belle come a little too naive or delusional about him. They're really not on legal Grouw. Regina and robin hood could be a great couple of paper . Two strong characters who feel, but the execution was rushed. If we have seen them opposing and working
Together in the FTL and fall in story-book it will work for me. But what I saw ;

Regina( I hate you in futile. I live for destroying my new enemy.)
Robin( You have a nice ass, let's make out )

Regina (you're my fate)...Too faste too sono just weird, Robyn should have questioned his instant attraction to the evil queen more, Regina remembers that time they work together….. Something like that ! It will have the benefit to both.
It has been this way just for the shocking revelation of the Marian return. The love story between Regina and Robyn was not the most important thing to the creator. The one that have suffered the most is Robyn because his character was new .

[Mari]

Now the couple that I struggle Le most is rumple and belle. Probably because the age difference and the fact that belle come a little too naive or delusional about him. They're really not on legal Grouw.

The age difference doesn't bother me--but Belle's being pretty much okay on a regular basis with Rumple being evil bothers me. 

 

I am a little confused, though--I'm assuming you meant legal grounds?  If so, what legal grounds are a problem? They're both over the age of 21, and neither one's married to someone else.  Legally, on that at least, they should be just fine.   If not, what did you mean instead?

Edited June 30, 2014 by Mari

[FurryFury]

I am a little confused, though--I'm assuming you meant legal grounds?

 

I thought it was "level" (as in "equal"). And they are definitely far from equal.

[maryle]

I'm sorry if i was not clearer in m'y post. First i like all the couple.
I, at time struggle with all of them. For rumbelle ; One problem is  the unbalance in power in the relationship. I always like better the couple who are  egal. It's good when the egality is showing in the ways the couple interact with each other. Well , like hook and Emma they can call each other bullshit very easy without the Relationship be compromise, OQ must definitely work a little harder in that regard but I hope they can go there this season with the triangle. Robin will have to learn regina rôle, in what could have happen. So he as character will grown and become a better match for Regina, at least.

 

Now i really am interested in the story for rumple and Belle because they can make Belle progress. Does she really love all rumple or will she leave him when she learn about his deception. What way Belle go and how her view of herself rumple will change ? Not going in the age thing deeper she is major and she love him. It just a little icky for me sometime, that all!

[Mari]

I'm sorry if i was not clearer in m'y post. First i like all the couple.

Now i really am interested in the story for rumple and Belle because they can make Belle progress. Does she really love all rumple or will she leave him when she learn about his deception. What way Belle go and how her view of herself rumple will change ? Not going in the age thing deeper she is major and she love him. It just a little icky for me sometime, that all!

(Don't worry about it--it happens.  I'm just sorry I didn't get it figured out properly.)

I have to admit their relationship is icky for me, too.  Cartoon Belle was always a favorite of mine, and it bothers me that their relationship doesn't seem to be portrayed in a negative way, despite how ugly it seems.

 

Rumple continually lies to, manipulates, and is often violent to those around him.  At times, he lies to and manipulates Belle.  Belle regularly watches him do all of these things--to other people, and to her--and after a few small protests, mostly seems fine with it.  By season 3B, she's standing in the middle of a shop full of things stolen and taken from other people, and selling it back to them while demanding apologies.  That's not okay.  It's pretty anti-okay.

 

It seems less like Belle is pulling Rumple towards being a better person, and more like Rumple is corrupting Belle. I'm hoping that in season 4, they actually deal with this a little, since they made it so obvious he was tricking her as they were getting married.

[maryle]

It is exactly my thought about This.

[KingOfHearts]

Rumpbelle was amazing in S1. It skated fine through 2A, but got punched in the stomach when Belle got shot and Lacey came about in 2B. 3A was okay, but they were never together until the tail end. 3B made Belle a complete idiot - a marionette with strings pulled by the puppet master himself.

 

Since they're both married, I gather their relationship is going to continue for a long time. What was so likeable about Rumpbelle in the first place was that beauty fearlessly called the beast on his crap. She wasn't afraid to tell him outright what he was doing wrong. She knew he wasn't a monster, but rather a man making wrong choices. She saw it and she called him on it... but now she doesn't even see it.

 

Belle should say when she finds out about the dagger, "You know what? You deceived me. I'm not going to trust you again until you give me the real one. I still love you, but I won't be naive either. This is for your own good."

[Mari]

Rumpbelle was amazing in S1. It skated fine through 2A, but got punched in the stomach when Belle got shot and Lacey came about in 2B. 3A was okay, but they were never together until the tail end. 3B made Belle a complete idiot - a marionette with strings pulled by the puppet master himself.

 

Since they're both married, I gather their relationship is going to continue for a long time. What was so likeable about Rumpbelle in the first place was that beauty fearlessly called the beast on his crap. She wasn't afraid to tell him outright what he was doing wrong. She knew he wasn't a monster, but rather a man making wrong choices. She saw it and she called him on it... but now she doesn't even see it.

 

Belle should say when she finds out about the dagger, "You know what? You deceived me. I'm not going to trust you again until you give me the real one. I still love you, but I won't be naive either. This is for your own good."

By making Belle Lacey, and then having Lacey encourage and enjoy Rumple's sadism--and then having Belle never acknowledge it, while continuing to go on and on about what a good man he was now, they made it look like Belle actually truly enjoys it when Rumple is cruel to people, but doesn't want to admit that to some people.  Especially when they have her justifying his behavior to victims (or at least people she thinks are victims), and saying the dreadful line about loving all of him, even the parts from darkness.

[Camera One]

they made it look like Belle actually truly enjoys it when Rumple is cruel to people, but doesn't want to admit that to some people.

 

Remember, she loves the dark parts too.  Seriously one of the worst lines in the entire season.

[myril]

Remember, she loves the dark parts too.  Seriously one of the worst lines in the entire season.

 

I found Belle more interesting when they turned her into Lacey, and that sentence again made her more interesting as a character, made the relationship with Rumple more interesting to me. But I admittedly suffer since childhood a (Disney-) Princess-allergy, I find these sweet,perfect, good looking, allegedly good hearted, spoiled brats getting happy endings all the time annoying ;) They even made me strongly dislike pink and find sky blue only nice to see in the sky (Cinderella's skirts, ugh, still struggled with it watching Frozen). There is more complexity to it if Belle is not just seeing the good guy in Rumple, feeling pity and empathy, and out of the vast goodness of her heart fell in love with him and is trying to salvage the good in him, but if as well she's drawn to the darker side.

 

It could be interesting to explore an ambiguous, quite icky sort of romantic relationship, where one can wonder, if to call it abusive or if two people are there honestly enjoying each other, no power imbalance though things look odd to outsiders. There are people drawn to power, agressiveness and even brutality and quite sure not because they sense anything good in a person to be salvaged, they are interested in that dark side of them. Who says that only people with a good heart can truly love? It could though be not a happy ending couple, because we need the good to prevail, and either they both change or they perish together.

 

But maybe not on mainstream broadcast show. And it would be a very delicate thing to write, so one that would have to be treated with plenty more of thoughts and caution.

 

Even more so when looking around what else is happening on screen and off it. Shows like GoT walk plenty of minefields without any regards, or look at the newest song and video by this Ticke guy. I am all for passion and lust, but sure not  for sanctioning or even celebrating obsessive, abasing and abusive behavior.

 

What makes what they do with Rumple and Belle problematic to me is that they don't handle it much as a problematic relationship, let alone that plenty of people in the audience equal it with the fluffy Disney animated version. The Beauty and the Beast tale always had an icky side to it, more or less visible depending on the interpretation (the only I find mostly acceptable as a romance was the 80s TV show inspired by it with Linda Hamilton and Ron Perlman).  It's not the writers responsibility if some in the audience might have skewed views on things at times, some of my views seem skewed to others as well, but they don't make it any easier to sort it out better with their writing and even less some of what they said in interviews. It's not just Rumbelle, look at Regina and Graham. And I get why some people have a problem with Emma and Hook even though I think they walk the fine line a bit better with them.

 

It's a show about love, but love can have dark sides or come in dark forms. One can question if it then still should be called love, but well people do call their obsessive attractions love.

 

But then this show would need to grow up, get serious and stop being this geek fun play night at a toy shop with soap opera touch it more is at the moment.

Edited July 2, 2014 by katusch

[Dani-Ellie]

The Belle/Rumple relationship for me is kind of one of those things that show what works well for an 80-minute movie does not always lend itself to an ongoing storyline.

 

I'm speaking mostly here about the Disney Beauty and the Beast, because 1) it's my favorite of the Disney fairy tale movies, and 2) it's the one I know best. ;) If one gets past the Stockholm Syndrome aspect of the story, Beauty and the Beast is a coming-of-age tale, at least on the spoiled prince's side of it. Yes, it's about learning to see past outward appearances but it's also about growing up and learning how to be the best person one can be. The prince had to learn how to help beauty recognize the person he was underneath the beast.

 

The problem with Once's take on it is that while Belle is fundamentally a good person, deep down, Rumple has no desire to change. He has no desire to actually deserve Belle's love so he remains the same ... he remains the beast. In order to stay with him, beauty needs to look past his unwillingness to change, which results in two things. He ends up dragging her down into the darkness with her ("I love all of him, even the dark parts") and she ends up looking like one of those women who marries serial killers on death row ("he's got a good heart!").

 

And it would be fine if the show wasn't trying to elevate them to Snow/Charming True Love status, but as it stands now, it's icky. I mean, the symbol of their marriage, their union based upon trust and togetherness, is a deception. It would be like Rumple proposing with a cubic zirconia and telling Belle it was real. On the face of it, it's just one little deception, but when the thing he's lying about is the symbol of their trusting union in life going forward, it's a problem, and it shouldn't be True Love.

[ShadowFacts]

I think an element of Rumple's psychological makeup is self-loathing.  He has said to Belle he doesn't know what she sees in him, because he himself feels undeserving of love.  And that translates into a sort of lowered respect for Belle -- kind of like that old joke, 'I wouldn't want to belong to a club that would have me as a member.'  I want to know where would Belle draw the line on the acceptance/love of the 'dark parts'?  If it isn't anything that he's done to date, is there anything at all she won't accept, or is she like Dani-Ellie says, a woman married to a serial killer on death row?  Deceiving her about the dagger is so far from the worst thing he's ever done, that it maybe doesn't work as the thing that pushes her over the edge. And if nothing pushes her past no return with him (and I think something will or there's no drama), then she's just an enabler. 

[YaddaYadda]

I enjoyed Belle and Rumple in their fairybacks.  I wasn't really on board with him being Beast, but I got over it, I enjoyed them.  But after season 1, I can't say that I'm even close to liking them.  Belle wears some serious blinders when it comes to Rumple.  That's taking "love is blind" to a whole other level.  She didn't even react when Hook told her what Rumple did to Milah.  That's when things for me started going south with her character in particular plus the dialogue they put in her mouth about Rumple having a true heart.  He might have once upon a time before the seer messed with him, he loved his son which gave him some of his humanity especially when he was the Dark One.  But Rumple is the poster child for what power does to people.  I've always wondered if his powers are really dark powers or if he just chooses to use them that way, because there's something nasty buried deep inside of him.  And Belle has been shown to be extremely naïve in her love for him lately.

 

I feel like Belle these days is just some sort of leash for him and I just wonder if he really loves her.  His actions, the lies about the dagger... I don't think even Belle can keep him from falling over the edge.

 

This is why bringing in the Frozen gang sucks so much for me (personally) because I want them to address these things.

[Serena]

The Belle/Rumple relationship for me is kind of one of those things that show what works well for an 80-minute movie does not always lend itself to an ongoing storyline.

I completely agree this is the problem with R/B. I thought Skin Deep was so good, and I liked the bittersweet ending of Rumple being too attached to his power to really let himself be with Belle or, if if you want to give him the benefit of the doubt, of choosing his Quest For Bae over Belle. I could see why Belle saw something good in him, as a man who did everything for his son, but got lost along the way.

 

But in order for the R/B relationship to continue after Skin Deep, Rumple should have made a choice to continue to be good once he got Belle back in the finale. But he kept ignoring her wishes and lying to her, over and over again. Plus, in season 2 we got that charming detail of Rumple being a wife-murderer (and I don't care what people say about him murdering her because she left Bae - he was ready to let her go until she said "I never loved you". That's what made him snap.). For me Belle as a character never recovered from not even batting an eye to the Milah revelation.

 

As for the comparison to Emma and Hook, here's the main difference, from a writing point of view: the show really committed to Hook's redemption, and whatever feelings Emma may have had for him before, she only actually gave him a chance after he had proven himself to her, in many ways, over and over. While they have no intention of ever redeeming Rumple until the season finale, if ever, because they like him evil.