Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[Serena]

Marian being dead is his happy ending? Because he doesn't have the guts to ask for a divorce? I can't.

[YaddaYadda]

Sean said in one interview that he thinks Robin's happy ending would be to go back to that place before Marian came back and it was just Regina, Roland & Robin. I find that to be incredibly messed up.

 

It's messed up and selfish as hell.  And I think this is the issue with the show.  And I'm not just talking about what Sean said which I'm assuming might come in dialogue at some point for Robin.  The writing is horrendous.  Snowing were selfish and messed up to try and change their child before it was even born and Regina was selfish and messed up when she tried to make Henry think that he was crazy.

 

The parent/children relationships and what the characters think is best is just so very out there.  Robin is clearly a very loving father, but to wish his child's mother had stayed dead is just...

[Mari]

 

The parent/children relationships and what the characters think is best is just so very out there.  Robin is clearly a very loving father, but to wish his child's mother had stayed dead is just...

It's consistent with the character, though. This is the same man who allowed his preschooler to be used as evil kidnapping shadow bait so that he felt like he no longer owed someone a debt. The same man who had no qualms whatsoever about introducing the woman he'd been dating for three or four days to his child, even though the relationship she was most famous for was with a widower (like him), with a child (like him), whose life she'd saved (like him)--and the entire forest knew the fall-out from that relationship.

Now, I'm not saying Regina was a threat to Roland, but how could Robin know that? Shouldn't he have had a concern or two? Be careful about his child's future?

[HoodlumSheep]

It's all those Rumpbelle shippers forming angry mobs if Scarlet Beauty triumphs over their ship.)

It won't just be Rumbelle shippers who form angry mobs if Scarlet Beauty triumphs. The Scarlet Queen shippers will promptly join them (there's more of them than you think), because Scarlet Queen is CANON. C-A-N-O-N. They get married, they become the White Queen and King, Alice writes about them in her book and reads it to her kid! They "loved each other very much" and "filled the land with Wonder once again!"

*flips table*

*punches wall*

[YaddaYadda]

The Scarlet Queen shippers will promptly join them (there's more of them than you think), because Scarlet Queen is CANON. C-A-N-O-N.

 

Maybe she just died and he left Wonderland because he didn't wanna stay somewhere that reminded him of her at every turn?  Isn't the white rabbit able to open portals?  Because I'm pretty sure he opened one in the pilot.  Even if he was ripped back to Storybrooke with Snow's curse, she could have sent the White Rabbit to retrieve him, which she didn't. 

[HoodlumSheep]

^ I don't think Alice would have ended the story with "they filled the land with Wonder" (which would take some time, which suggests years), and fail to mention that the red queen died within the year that they reunited and Will promptly escaped to avoid the pain of losing his loved one.

You could also interpret the scene as "they lived happily and ruled for a long time." And seeing how Alice's daughter is probaby 7-10, it would suggest that they were together for more than a year.

The white rabbit could have been captured or threatened like he was in Wonderland. And something could have happened to Ana that she is currently unable to get ahold of him.

Ana's probably not dead, and if she is, A&E just destroyed a beautiful story and threw the "3" Wonderland fans under the bus.

[Rumsy4]

I think it's more likely that Ana backslid (like Rumple), and chose power over love again. It ruins OUATiW, but that's the only explanation that really fits with Will's earlier drunken behavior, and him currently dating Belle.

[HoodlumSheep]

I think it's more likely that Ana backslid (like Rumple), and chose power over love again. It ruins OUATiW, but that's the only explanation that really fits with Will's earlier drunken behavior, and him currently dating Belle.

And if that ends up true, I will quit Ouat for good.

Ana's whole arc and what she went through would be a complete and utter waste. Based on what we saw she would never pull a Rumple or a Regina. If anything, she would have pulled much more minor backsliding.

[YaddaYadda]

Oh, maybe Ana is the big villain of s5.  I think they brought Michael Socha in without thinking his story through.

[Mathius]

I'm kind of hoping Will backslid, not Ana. He made a big mistake and she banished him from WL, and we're being fooled into thinking he's like Belle in his old relationship when he's actually like Rumple. That would be a more interesting route to take.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Mathius

[HoodlumSheep]

Oh, maybe Ana is the big villain of s5. I think they brought Michael Socha in without thinking his story through.

Probably. Like, I just want people to understand that it's fine to ship Scarlet Beauty, but if A&E have any respect for their own creation ( Wonderland), it's not gonna be endgame. Like, I'm torn; I'm happy Belle is trying to move on and seems decently happy, but at the same time it's kinda insulting to some of the Wonderland crowd (or at least those who liked Will & Ana).

I'd accept if Will thought she was dead; it could be a situation where he's trying to move on, but the little hints seem to show he's still hung up on Ana, so then I feel bad for Belle. Or maybe he and Ana decided to take a short break for whatever reason they got seperated soon afterward?

I guess my whole point is...

Bad:

Ana = actually dead

Ana = backslid to the point where she is evil

(which just doesn't fit with her Wonderland arc)

I'm not too fond of the idea that Will is still hung up on Ana, but still dating Belle

A&E blatantly disregard Wonderland and make Scarlet Beauty endgame canon

Good:

Anything A&E can think of that doesn't trow Wonderland under the bus.

Heck, I'd even take Ana getting possessed by an evil spirit if it would help explain stuff.

Also, we've had a short discussion about how Will in Once doesn't quite match up with how he was portrayed at the end of of Wonderland i his character thread.

He wouldn't give up on Ana that easily.

Edited April 9, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Mathius]

If Ana was dead, they'd have had Will say so already, just like Robin established that Marian was dead quickly into S3. The fact that they're being oh so mysterious about her indicates she's alive and something else is up. When they'll reveal what that is, I don't know.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Mathius

[kili]

Oh, maybe Ana is the big villain of s5. I think they brought Michael Socha in without thinking his story through.

That would actually make sense when nothing about Will makes any sense. If the original plan was Author in 4A and Ana/Will in 4B, it makes sense for Will to be in Storybrooke in 4A to set up the story. If Frozen later got inserted into 4A, then it spread his intro arc over a full season and left him with little to do. A&E can claim the time travel messed up their story, but the story will right itself in the end.

[HoodlumSheep]

That would actually make sense when nothing about Will makes any sense. If the original plan was Author in 4A and Ana/Will in 4B, it makes sense for Will to be in Storybrooke in 4A to set up the story. If Frozen later got inserted into 4A, then it spread his intro arc over a full season and left him with little to do. A&E can claim the time travel messed up their story, but the story will right itself in the end.

I feel like that could possibly work, but then that would be very very tricky, and I don't know if A&E could handle it. The time travel mess up stuff would have taken place probably around the time Ana chose power over Will, or at least, when they were already in Wonderland. So unless emma snapping a limb somehow distorted what happened in Wonderland, I don't see how it would work. Unless Will spent some time in Wonderland, but then managed to get back to the EF before the curse hit.

Then you'd have all the crazy stuff about how on earth they could help fix their timeline to right it.

And, then you have the fact that most people place Wonderland typically between the beginning of season 2 and no further than Neverland. So I don't know if the time travelling would have messed up anything.

So, now that I think of it, this idea probably wouldn't work?

Bottom line: Nothing makes sense.

OT: Would anyone be interested if I started a Once vs. Wonderland thread (poorly worded--the "vs." wouldn't be literal), or is that a stupid idea? I'm afraid to, because there's already a Wonderland board (where activity is pretty much nonexistent), and I fear getting yelled at by a mod, or the thread might not get any activity, or we could possibly discuss it in the "vs. other fairy tales"

Any opinions?

Edited April 9, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Zuleikha]

My head canon is that Will got pulled back into Storybrooke from Wonderland as part of curse 2.0 (since it was established he was there in curse 1.0). He's moping around and regressed in behavior because he's separated from Ana. They're helping each other move on in life from their broken hearts, but they've had a talk with each other that this is basically an FWB/rebound thing and neither is in a place where love is an option. Belle is also helping him research portal options for returning to Wonderland and eventually she'll find the Looking Glass mirror that Rumple gave Regina in a dusty corner of Gold's shop. Will will return to Ana and become the White King. I don't think A&E have any intention of a Scarlet Beauty endgame because they've given this relationship next to no screen time or development. I'm just praying that they don't intend Rumpbelle endgame after they've portrayed Belle as traumatized/terrified because of Rumpel. 

 

The spoiler thread tangeted into a Hook/Robin adultery comparison that has no spoilers and is only relationships, so I'm putting thoughts here instead of there:

 

And, he went back to her, rekindled some sort of relationship that was presented as a family unit and then promptly slept with Regina while Marian/Zelena thinks he's committed to her.

The timeline was very condensed, so this is the one thing I'll give Robin a pass on. He and Roland find out that Marian's alive, and of course, she expects to be reunited with them (and should be reunited with Roland). Then it's just a day or two later when Marian is cursed by Ingrid. That didn't give Robin a lot of time to sort through his feelings and figure out how to handle the situation. I thought it was very clear in his conversation with Regina that he was torn, didn't know what to do, and so was breaking up with Regina to give his and Marian's relationship a chance. I think we were supposed to understand that the TLK failing was when Robin realized that he wasn't torn; his heart had moved on to Regina. There was literally no way for him to have a conversation with Marian about this, but he and Marian did break up as soon as she was melted.

 

(However, I don't give him a pass on his complete lack of concern for her getting unmelted--that was a horrible character choice that the writers made and I don't know if Robin's character can ever recover from it)

 

I don't think Hook is any more/less in the clear in terms of his hooking up with Milah. Milah was unambiguously married when Hook got together with her. She didn't divorce Rumple or do an EF equivalent; she schemed with Hook to cook up a plan to make Rumple think she'd been abducted against her will (I'm not actually sure why, other than the show wanted a twist later on. It's not like Rumple had any power to make her stay if she'd just told him she was leaving with Hook because she preferred being with Hook). IMHO, Rumple was an a-hole for how he treated Milah in their marriage and deserved to get left, but Hook was needlessly cruel for the specifics of how he helped Milah leave and the over-the-top unnecessary humiliation he inflicted on Rumple. 

[HoodlumSheep]

My head canon is that Will got pulled back into Storybrooke from Wonderland as part of curse 2.0 (since it was established he was there in curse 1.0). He's moping around and regressed in behavior because he's separated from Ana. They're helping each other move on in life from their broken hearts, but they've had a talk with each other that this is basically an FWB/rebound thing and neither is in a place where love is an option. Belle is also helping him research portal options for returning to Wonderland and eventually she'll find the Looking Glass mirror that Rumple gave Regina in a dusty corner of Gold's shop. Will will return to Ana and become the White King. I don't think A&E have any intention of a Scarlet Beauty endgame because they've given this relationship next to no screen time or development.

This is the problem. This would have been much more acceptable, except that we haven't seen any of it, just like A&E like to leave out a lot of stuff. Scarlet Beauty need to at least have a small scene where the whole Ana thing can be referenced or discussed, because otherwise it's a latge blow to Will's character.

Edited April 9, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[pezgirl7]

I don't think Hook is any more/less in the clear in terms of his hooking up with Milah. Milah was unambiguously married when Hook got together with her. She didn't divorce Rumple or do an EF equivalent; she schemed with Hook to cook up a plan to make Rumple think she'd been abducted against her will (I'm not actually sure why, other than the show wanted a twist later on. It's not like Rumple had any power to make her stay if she'd just told him she was leaving with Hook because she preferred being with Hook). 

 

A lot fans seem to think that Hook was testing Rumple. Part of his code seemed to have been "A man unwilling to fight for what he wants, deserves what he gets". Hook knew that Rumple was a coward, so by making up the story that Milah was there to service his men (and don't get me started on the people who think this is unequivocal proof that Hook is a rapist), Hook was testing Rumple to see if he loved Milah enough to grow a pair and stand up to him. Who knows what would have happened if Rumple did stand up to him. I doubt Milah would have gone back with him, but the fact that Rumple walked away was probably enough for Hook to be OK with helping Milah leave.  Hook was a complete bully towards Rumple, but later, he obviously felt guilty about leaving Bealfire without a mother, and even put off courting Emma so that she could have a chance with Neal, for the sake of Henry.

[Delphi]

I don't think it really matters that later Hook decided to feel guilty about his actions or that he used some sort of "code" to test Rumple. He challenged a crippled, untrained man to a sword fight that Rumple refused to do. If Rumple had lost, which he obviously would have, Hook would have still taken Milah which would either leave Bae an orphan, or becoming a fatherless pirate. Rumple had no way to know if this was some sort of test, keeping Bae safe was his top priority.

[Zuleikha]

A lot fans seem to think that Hook was testing Rumple.

 

I've seen that, but it doesn't make sense to me--except maybe as something done for his own sport, which I still don't consider very nice. But it's not like if Rumple had been willing to engage in a combat that, realistically Rumple could never win, Hook could have just been like "I respect you, mate. Here's Milah." Milah didn't want to go back to Rumple. I guess if Milah set up that situation as a test (since one of her issues with Rumple was his cowardice), then it could make sense. But I don't think Rumple being willing to risk his life/orphaning Bae would have been a good reason for her to go back to a marriage that was destroying her (where, IMHO, Rumple's cowardice was not the main issue). So Hook's actions would make more sense, but Milah's would make less.

[YaddaYadda]

They never took the time to flesh out Milah.  She was miserable, resented her husband.  She was just the reason for the feud and hatred between Hook and Rumple.  I always thought The Crocodile was a good episode, but we knew next to nothing about Milah and what went down between her and Hook that led to the situation we know.  That being said, I could sort of see Hook behaving the same way he did with Ursula as in try to help her but his asshole instincts taking over.  Hook behaved like an ass and Rumple got back at him years later in a very terrible way.  Milah was killed and he lost his hand.

[Serena]

You know what the difference is between the two situations? The men are both jerks, but Hook is meant to be seen as a jerk. We are supposed to empathize with poor Rumple who's losing his wife. In S1, we were meant to empathize with Kaitlyn when she got cheated on. With the OQ situation? Nope, we are meant to cheer for them to cheat on a dying woman. That's why I could take the first two situations in stride, as the show showing us flawed people making mistakes. 

[Rumsy4]

That's why I could take the first two situations in stride, as the show showing us flawed people making mistakes.

 

You've hit the nail on the head. While the other situations were shown as messed up, Regina sleeping with Robin is presented as empowering, and Robin being totally over Marian to the point of not even caring for her as his son's mother is being presented as natural,

and setting a good example to his son

. Besides, Robin keeps spouting off about his code, and is supposed to be an honorable thief. He had in fact been inspired by his wife to change for the better, and she had given up so much to be with Robin. That's what make Robin's present-day actions more galling. I simple don't find him compelling, or worth rooting for. 

Edited April 9, 2015 by Rumsy4

[pezgirl7]

I don't think it really matters that later Hook decided to feel guilty about his actions or that he used some sort of "code" to test Rumple. He challenged a crippled, untrained man to a sword fight that Rumple refused to do. If Rumple had lost, which he obviously would have, Hook would have still taken Milah which would either leave Bae an orphan, or becoming a fatherless pirate. Rumple had no way to know if this was some sort of test, keeping Bae safe was his top priority.

 

Hence Hook being a jerk and and a bully at the time, which I think they wanted to show in order to help his redemption arc later on. I'm not defending his actions, I was just trying to give an explanation to why he said and did what he did to Rumple. And there's no evidence that Hook "took" Milah. She seems to have went with Hook on her own accord.

 

I have no problem with Robin no longer being in love with Marian. However, the way he handled the situation, with his flip-flopping between her and Regina, just seemed very wrong, and not fair to either woman.

 

The majority of relationships on this show are pretty screwed up. Even the fairly stable couples, like Snowing and CaptainSwan, started out as enemies.

[The Cake is a Pie]

Hook was an utter ass to Rumple, but if you look at the big picture, the "kidnapping" scenario actually made Rumple look better than he was. What's more humiliating? To tell people your wife left you for a pirate and you did nothing, or that she was kidnapped by pirates? If Rumple had even just picked up the sword, then the story would have been that he fought for his wife, but could not save her. He could tell Bae that evil pirates stole his mother, not that his mother didn't want him any more and left willingly. For the years after she left until he killed her as the Dark One, he really did think she was kidnapped, not that she left him because she didn't love him any more.

Did Neal ever find out the truth about Milah's death anyway? Did he go through the portal before or after Milah's death? I can't keep the timeline straight in my head.

[YaddaYadda]

Did Neal ever find out the truth about Milah's death anyway? Did he go through the portal before or after Milah's death?

 

He went through the portal before Milah died, that's why Rumple was on the quest to find a magic bean in the Crocodile and crossed paths with Hook and Milah.  They kidnapped Smee and took the bean from him.

 

Also, the whole fighting someone who is crippled, I thought the show addressed that in Good Form when dying David threw a punch at Hook who avoided it and told him he did not fight invalids.

[Curio]

A lot fans seem to think that Hook was testing Rumple.

I've seen that, but it doesn't make sense to me--except maybe as something done for his own sport, which I still don't consider very nice.

I think there's enough canon evidence to support the "Hook-was-testing-Rumple" interpretation, but that still doesn't make his actions towards him any less dick-ish. It just explains his behavior more.

 

First, the audience now knows that Milah wasn't actually in any danger when Hook was bragging about his men "needing companionship," nor did he "abduct" her. How do we know this? 1) Hook and Milah appeared to be hitting it off in the bar before the Hook/Rumple confrontation, and by seeing Hook and Milah together as a couple later on in the episode, it implies that they liked each other right away. 2) We learn later on in Season 2 that Milah was the one who begged Hook to take her away, so they must have formed a close enough bond before the Hook/Rumple confrontation where she was willing to run away from her life and her son with a total stranger. 3) We've seen how Hook -- even when he was notorious Captain Hook hellbent on revenge -- interacts with another young woman looking to run away from her problems in the Ursula flashback. Nowhere in that episode did it imply that Ursula was in any danger of being thrown around the ship as "companionship," and again, it was Ursula's idea to run away in the first place. Hook just offered his vessel.

 

So taking these pieces of evidence, we can strongly assume Hook was playing up the "companionship" line to get a rise out of Rumple. So now we have to interpret why he was lying and why he wanted to get a rise out of Rumple. We know Hook believes "a man unwilling to fight for what he wants deserves what he gets" and that he "doesn't fight invalids." (The invalid line is taken from Season 3's Good Form when a struggling David attempts to punch Hook.) I could easily see Hook measuring up Rumple as a man to see if he's even willing to fight for his wife and to see if Milah's stories about him were true. We'll never find out if Hook would have actually given Milah over if Rumple had the courage to fight a losing battle (directly paralleled later on in the episode when Hook attempts to sword fight the Dark One, even though he knows he'll probably lose), but I'd guess based on Hook's personality at that time that he would have won the sword fight, would have spared Rumple's life, and would have taken Milah anyways.

 

You know what the difference is between the two situations? The men are both jerks, but Hook is meant to be seen as a jerk. [...] With the OQ situation? Nope, we are meant to cheer for them to cheat on a dying woman.

 

And that's where the show loses me. For all the mental gymnastics I had to do to explain Hook's behavior above, it doesn't excuse that he was a total dick while doing it. The writers presented Hook as a young frat boy type (probably in his 20s if we're to assume the current Hook in Storybrooke is around Colin's real life age), and a mean bully. The audience wasn't supposed to go "Poor wittle Hook. He got his hand cut off and lost the love of his life." No, we were supposed to think "Wow, that sucks. But you had it coming, buddy." But with the Robin/Marian/Regina fiasco, Robin is presented as an honorable man - an adult father in his 30s - making this boneheaded decision to have sex with another woman while his wife is in a coma nearby...and we're supposed to cheer it on?

Edited April 9, 2015 by Curio

[pezgirl7]

Did Neal ever find out the truth about Milah's death anyway? Did he go through the portal before or after Milah's death? I can't keep the timeline straight in my head.

 

Hook told him when he was on the Jolly Roger in Neverland. Here's the transcript:

 

Hook: I didn't kill your mother. We fell in love, and we ran off together. Your father lied to you. He was too much of a coward to tell you the truth. He tore out her heart and crushed it in front of me. And I've spent every moment since then wanting revenge.

Baelfire: She abandoned me?

Hook: Not a single day went past where your mother didn't regret leaving you, Baelfire. We talked about going back for you when you were old enough. Perhaps fate brought us together to make good on those plans. We can live the life that Milah wanted for us, as a family.

[KingOfHearts]

Sorry I'm late to reply on Scarlet Queen, but... my hope is that Anastasia is simply "gone" or missing, and that Will only believes she's dead. (Similarly to how Emma thought Neal was dead in 2x22.) If Will was simply taken with Curse 2.0, then the White Rabbit could easily create a portal to retrieve him as he did in the past. Even if the White Rabbit was also MIA, Will would be actively looking for portals, not getting drunk and hanging out with the Merry Men. He has obviously regressed quite a bit, which means he's probably grieving. Now that he's with Belle, we definitely know he and Anastasia are separated, whether just physically or also emotionally.

 

Count me in as one of the raging Scarlet Queen shippers. Those two were really the only ones I cared about on that show. I was so upset when Will and Ana kissed, followed abruptly by Ana's death. I was SO thankful she was resurrected. Cylice can take a hike. ;)

Edited April 9, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Zuleikha]

But with the Robin/Marian/Regina fiasco, Robin is presented as an honorable man - an adult father in his 30s - making this boneheaded decision to have sex with another woman while his wife is in a coma nearby...and we're supposed to cheer it on?

 

Are we? I think the show sent conflicting messages. They obviously want us to root for Robin and Regina to end up together, but they had Regina explicitly talk about how the sex was wrong, couldn't be repeated, and to be ashamed about it. Even the infamous "I slept with a married man, too" Snow line was used as part of a conversation to talk about good people not being all good (if I remember right, it was the lead in). I don't think they want us to cheer on the affair but rather to cheer on the love, basically a Mary Margaret/David/Katherine redux situation in which people rooted for Mary Margaret and David while still recognizing that the affair was wrong. 

 

Of course, with Mary Margaret/David/Katherine, we were also getting flashbacks to show us Snow/Charming/Abigail, so no one was really rooting for Mary Margaret and David Nolan but rather for the non-adulterous Snow and Charming, that we eventually found out that Katherine actually had her own true love that the curse was keeping her from, and also that some of us hated David Nolan/Charming as a result of the whole thing. So I will never know what the show writers were on to think they could do a version of that with only the bad aspects preserved and none of the good and have it be well received.

[Curio]

Are we? I think the show sent conflicting messages. They obviously want us to root for Robin and Regina to end up together, but they had Regina explicitly talk about how the sex was wrong, couldn't be repeated, and to be ashamed about it.

 

The writers are definitely sending conflicting messages, that's for sure. It's hard to decipher what they actually want us to take away from the situation. Even though we heard Regina feel remorse about it, we never really got Robin's thoughts on it. (Except that it was the best "sleep" he's had in a while.) We never even got a conversation between Robin and Marian where he confessed what had happened while she was out cold. (Sorry, I still can't resist the Frozen puns.) Even the tone Snow was using when talking to Regina and telling her to not feel bad about it was very light and reassuring. So as a viewer watching this, it's like the show is telling me to forget about any of the sticky implications and just enjoy the "hot" crypt sex scene.

[Shanna Marie]

Even though we heard Regina feel remorse about it, we never really got Robin's thoughts on it.

Well, he did seem to have rationalized it by comparing what Marian did for him, which makes it gross to me, but he seemed to be taking the "you're willing to overcome anything to be with the person you love" message and applying it to his relationship with Regina, so he's willing to overcome a magically returned wife who's in a coma to be with the person he loves. And it was painted as all kinds of tragic that Robin and Regina were forced to separate.

 

As for Hook and Milah, I will admit that this is headcanon, but it's an extrapolation based on what we know of his character, what he's said, and how we've seen him behave in related situations. I think that in a sense he was testing Milah by testing Rumple. This is probably not the first woman he's encountered who wanted to sail away with him -- he's ridiculously good-looking, manages to be the perfect blend of the "bad boy" and the courtly gentleman, and would flirt outrageously with a lamppost (and maybe even succeed). Milah comes to him with the "my husband doesn't understand me, doesn't appreciate me, take me away from all this" sob story, and it's probably something he's heard before. But how real is it, and does he want to get stuck with a woman who's going to want to go back home a day or two later? Does he want to take her away from her family? Is her husband as bad as she makes it sound? So when she begs him to take her away, he decides to see what happens. Will her husband come after her or not notice she's gone? If he makes it sound like he's going to do horrible things to her, what will her husband do? If Rumple picks up the sword, then that's proof that he does care for Milah and is willing to fight for her, and Hook refuses to take her with him and sends her home to her family. But he didn't, and I got the impression that even Hook was surprised by that. That was a "does not compute" in his brain, and he realized that everything she'd said was true. Then he can sail away with her with a clear conscience because the marriage was already broken.

 

I think a big difference between the Hook/Milah/Rumple situation and the Regina/Robin/Marian situation is that we saw Milah trying to talk to Rumple about how unhappy she was before she left, and once she left, she was gone. She didn't carry on with Hook on the side while pretending that she was happy with Rumple and intending to stay with him. We specifically saw that Rumple wasn't willing to fight to save her. Robin was rather duplicitous about the whole thing. He was acting like he was committed to continuing his marriage to Marian, then when she was out of commission, he took up with Regina. We saw Marian talk to Regina about his and Regina's relationship, and he and Regina talked about it. We never saw Robin and Marian talk about what was going on. Marian came out of the spell to find that the relationship was a done deal. We never saw things falling apart between Robin and Marian. We didn't see enough of their relationship to see how they no longer really connected or see that he was unhappy with her and she was unable or unwilling to do what it took to fix things when they'd been apart long enough for him to have drastically changed.

 

This is where I think it really was a huge mistake for the relationship between Robin and Regina not to have been developed during the Missing Year. Yeah, I know that the idea was that she couldn't be happy without Henry, but as usual, they didn't really follow up or develop that idea beyond her initial histrionics. It's totally understandable that she would have been devastated initially, but as far as they knew, this was permanent. Was she never going to be able to live her life? Was she not going to ever be able to make friends or fall in love because she'd been separated from her son? It wasn't as though she was doing any good for Henry by wallowing in grief. Even by the end of that year, wouldn't she have started to come out of it? Couldn't she have worked through things with Robin as a friend, and then fallen in love with him along the way, maybe while feeling a bit torn and guilty for being able to find happiness away from Henry? And then they really botched it in the present because she still didn't really have Henry back when she saw the tattoo and took up with Robin, then when Henry did get his memories back, she ended up spending her first bit of non-crisis time alone with Robin and then hanging out with Robin and Roland, without Henry, and when she lost Robin, she actually told Henry she didn't want to see him. So the result was that instead of making it look like Henry was so important to her that she couldn't be happy without him, even with her verified soulmate right under her nose, it just made it look like she was the kind of person who can't be happy because she's always going to want what she can't have -- she can't be happy without Henry so she can't be with Robin, then she can't be bothered with Henry because she has Robin, and then she doesn't even want Henry because she can't have Robin.

[Rumsy4]

 

I think that in a sense he was testing Milah by testing Rumple.

 

I definitely think there were elements of this. That's been part of my headcanon as well. He was testing both Milah and Rumple with this ruse. I think he was a jerk about it, in case anyone is wondering, and it was the arrogance of youth. 

[Zuleikha]

He was acting like he was committed to continuing his marriage to Marian, then when she was out of commission, he took up with Regina. We saw Marian talk to Regina about his and Regina's relationship, and he and Regina talked about it. We never saw Robin and Marian talk about what was going on. Marian came out of the spell to find that the relationship was a done deal.

 

Yes, that was why the whole triangle was such a horrible idea in the first place, especially if they were always planning on not writing material for her in 4A! The only way it could work without destroying Robin was to show us that he and Marian weren't connecting anymore so we would understand why he was so unconflicted about choosing Regina. But that could only work with scenes of Robin and Marian, and the writers had no interest in treating Marian as a real character. 

 

I will never understand why they chose Robin Hood for the pixie dust storyline in the first place. Was there such a fan outcry for more Robin that the writers were trying to find a way to make him fit with the core cast? But Tink's whole thing about Regina ruining her TL's life by not going in the tavern had no power when we already knew at that point that the show wasn't doing a retelling version of Robin Hood sans Marian but rather that Robin had gone on to meet and fall truly in love with his storybook romance. They should have picked a character like Lancelot whose story was all about tormented love (although I'm strangely blanking on male villains, heroes, or sidekicks whose stories feature unrequited love)

 

Even by the end of that year, wouldn't she have started to come out of it? Couldn't she have worked through things with Robin as a friend, and then fallen in love with him along the way, maybe while feeling a bit torn and guilty for being able to find happiness away from Henry?

 

The writing is worse than that actually! We saw her get the spring in her step back in the Missing Year after she encounters Zelena and has someone to hate again. She's obviously still grieving about Henry, but she's recommitted to life. So there is no reason why the show couldn't have shown her developing a friendship/proto-relationship with Robin after that point other than that they didn't have time for it during either the Wicked or Frozen arcs and/or writers didn't realize they needed to. (I guess they still could without it being a retcon--we don't see very much of the time in between Regina encountering Zelena and the casting of the Dark Curse--but it seems like the story has moved on from where Missing Year flashbacks would have made sense.)

[Serena]

Here's why I think the writers' approach to the three "adulteries" is different:

Hook and Milah: when found out, Rumple gets to yell at Milah, kills her, takes Hook's hand.

MM and David: when found out, Kathlyn slaps MM, calls her out, the whole town shuns her.

OQ: when found out, Marian gives her blessing, tells Regina she can see how Robin looks at her. Even Marian's child is shown to prefer Regina.

[FurryFury]

Was there such a fan outcry for more Robin that the writers were trying to find a way to make him fit with the core cast?

 

People barely noticed him, IIRC. They just wanted to give Regina a love interest and didn't bother to create a story that supports it or a character that was interesting on his own. The whole thing reeks of unprofessionalism and lack of inspiration.

[kili]

although I'm strangely blanking on male villains, heroes, or sidekicks whose stories feature unrequited love

 

Frollo from Hunchback is definitely working the villian and unrequited love veins. Mulan has a number of guys who are looking, but not finding. Mulan's friends sing "A Girl Worth Fighting For" and I seem to recall the dragon side-kick Mushu is constantly flirting. Thumper gets twitterpated with a young rabbit we never get to know, so nobody would cry too much if he got a new girlfriend while Cinderella;s GusGus has already been shown and has friends interested in dating. Ichabod never gets the girl, but I guess he is on another show. Merlin is sans a girlfriend and we just see Mowgli grinning at a girl so we could hook both of them up with somebody. Baloo would definitely like a girlfriend as would his counterpart who looks and sounds very much like him, Little John. Meanwhile, Prince John is too much of a mama's boy for anybody. Sebastian the Crab understands love and Gaston's buddy is probably on Plenty of Fish. Timon and Pumba are nice guys. Kronk is fabulous, can cook really well and his girlfriend turned herself into a cat.  Hercules coach Phil is free of attachments, but interested in the dating scene. One of the ruffians from Tangled has a dream  of finding true love.

 

There are probably even more out there. The problem is they wanted a heroic major character for Regina's love interest and there aren't any singles ones out there. Plenty of villians and side-kicks, but none of them would do.  So, they had to break up an iconic pairing. Emma can make do with a re-imagined foppish joke villain, but nothing but the best for Regina.

Edited April 9, 2015 by kili

[FurryFury]

There was also Jafar (before they've randomly used him on Wonderland) who I think had a thing for Jasmine (creepy but this is Regina, that's right up her alley).

[Zuleikha]

I don't think most of those sidekicks would work because they really aren't important enough/interesting enough for a main character. But someone like Frollo seems like exactly the type of character I think they should have gone with... someone whose story is all about being destroyed by loving the wrong person. To make Tink's line work, the reveal needed to be a character we would recognize and think, "Oh! So that's why his life sucked so hard!"... not "wait? Robin Hood? But he has a true love who he got flayed alive multiple times for! His life wasn't perfect but he seemed just fine without meeting Regina."

[Curio]

I don't know why, but I never really felt like Regina needed a love interest at this point in the series. I thought the show would have spent a lot more time with Henry being her "true love" and how they could rebuild that relationship after he got new memories of Emma being his mom who raised him in New York. 

[Mathius]

Even Marian's child is shown to prefer Regina.

That part isn't true. He only ever was seen around Regina once, when she got him, her and Robin ice cream. He later used that incident, probably innocently / unintentionally, to persuade his mother to get him ice cream, but otherwise he's shown no preference and "Heroes and Villains" seemed to indicate that, if anything, he prefers Marian.

[RadioGirl27]

I don't know why, but I never really felt like Regina needed a love interest at this point in the series.

Yeah, me neither. I think they should have waited, but we know that A&E like to give Regina everything Emma has, hence Operation Mongoose, light magic and a boyfriend.

[YaddaYadda]

I always thought Regina would get her love interest at the end of the series, like they would start towards that in the final season of the show.  I didn't even think she would be reunited with Robin this season.

[Shanna Marie]

MM and David: when found out, Kathlyn slaps MM, calls her out, the whole town shuns her.

And based on the can of spray paint found in Regina's desk, Regina was the one who painted "slut" on Mary Margaret's car. And even if not, she was very publicly Team Kathryn. While I do give Regina some credit for feeling a little shame about sleeping with Robin, if she was so anti-adultery when it was Mary Margaret (and she actually knew for a fact that Mary Margaret was only "cheating" within the fake construct of the curse because she was really being with her husband), then she shouldn't have gone there herself and owed an apology to Snow for the way she acted once she did do it.

 

OQ: when found out, Marian gives her blessing, tells Regina she can see how Robin looks at her. Even Marian's child is shown to prefer Regina.

Meanwhile, everyone else acts like it's a terrible tragedy that Regina can't be with Robin, and they even come up with a grand scheme to help Regina get her happy ending, which seems to have been defined as getting Robin. No one seems to be Team Marian in this.

 

We saw her get the spring in her step back in the Missing Year after she encounters Zelena and has someone to hate again. She's obviously still grieving about Henry, but she's recommitted to life. So there is no reason why the show couldn't have shown her developing a friendship/proto-relationship with Robin

I suspect that's one of the cases of them not really thinking it through, because what does it say about Regina if she can't find the will to live over finding someone to love, but she can over finding someone to hate? At any rate, that seems to have been all about that one gif-able moment because they never followed up on it during the missing year. I feel rather robbed that we didn't get to see an Evil vs. Wicked smackdown, Enchanted Forest style, with Regina in (somewhat reformed) Evil Queen mode and Zelena all full-on green. They didn't have time to get into the sister relationship once they were in Storybrooke, but they could have explored that more/better during the Missing Year.

[KAOS Agent]

I don't know why, but I never really felt like Regina needed a love interest at this point in the series.

 

I agree with this. Regina needed some time to work out things for herself without a romantic entanglement much like Emma needed to not have a long term love interest in Season 1. If they really felt the need to give her a soulmate, they would have done better to have picked someone from a far away realm with no connection to her actions the Evil Queen. Breaking up a canonical True Love couple with a young child is a really good way to turn people off. That it was done so miserably just makes it that much worse.

 

On the topic of Hook v Robin in the adultery stakes, Hook was not the married party in his relationship with Milah. He was not breaking sacred vows. It's still really wrong to get involved with a married person, but he's the Regina in this situation, where I have less of an issue with the participation simply because he wasn't the one who'd promised to love and honor the other person for the rest of his life.

Edited April 9, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[Zuleikha]

And based on the can of spray paint found in Regina's desk, Regina was the one who painted "slut" on Mary Margaret's car. And even if not, she was very publicly Team Kathryn.

I didn't think that represented a sincere belief on Regina's part that Mary Margaret was a slut for engaging in an affair with David. I thought that was just part of Regina's life mission at the time being to make Snow White miserable.

 

I also hated that storyline so much. The Storybrooke residents were disgusting in the way they treated Mary Margaret, and the show was disgusting for not judging them for it. Especially because David Nolan seemed to escape town judgment. 

 

Speaking of, I always felt not keeping Katherine/Abigail around as a recurring was a missed opportunity. She and Regina had some nice character moments developing their friendship, and we never saw any fallout from Regina's betrayal of that friendship. I would have loved for 2A to include Regina apologizing and trying to repair that friendship. If she failed, it would have nicely tied up that little mini-story, helped set up Regina feeling like she has no hope of achieving acceptance, and kept me from periodically wondering what her character is up to. :)

 

I don't know why, but I never really felt like Regina needed a love interest at this point in the series.

Because she doesn't. If Jefferson were still around, I wouldn't have minded something being developed there since they had intriguing chemistry (and kids of the same age) or if she and Robin (or another character) had organically developed into a couple people wanted, sure, and it could have been fun seeing her casually date as part of her emotional maturation/moving on. But her character has so many interesting relationships with the core cast, IMHO, it's a waste to take her out of those scenes just to isolate her with a love interest.

[daxx]

I definitely think there were elements of this. That's been part of my headcanon as well. He was testing both Milah and Rumple with this ruse. I think he was a jerk about it, in case anyone is wondering, and it was the arrogance of youth.

To me it seemed Killian was disgusted by the fact that Rumple wouldn't pick up the sword. He turned his back on him and ordered him off his ship considering him a waste of his time.

[Curio]

If Jefferson were still around, I wouldn't have minded something being developed there since they had intriguing chemistry (and kids of the same age) or if she and Robin (or another character) had organically developed into a couple people wanted, sure, and it could have been fun seeing her casually date as part of her emotional maturation/moving on. But her character has so many interesting relationships with the core cast, IMHO, it's a waste to take her out of those scenes just to isolate her with a love interest.

 

Agreed. I think it would have been fun to see her go on a lot of dates in Storybrooke with a bunch of random single men (or women, for those of you out there who think she's bi). There's a lot of comedy to be mined from the beginning stages of first dates, especially since Regina has a short temper and would have no qualms with busting out a fireball if something on the date didn't go her way. Meanwhile, Robin could have been the platonic friend who gradually wormed his way into her heart after a season or two instead of being her insta-love. But alas, we're stuck with fairy dust and crypt sex...

Edited April 10, 2015 by Curio

[KingOfHearts]

 

But alas, we're stuck with fairy dust and crypt sex...

Thief. Mass-Murdering Dictator. Pixie Dust. Tattoo. Whiskey. Crypt Sex. Sounds like the perfect couple for a family show, doesn't it? I ship Regina and Frollo. They can go burn villages together. Sure he's a little old, but that's got nothing on Rumpbelle or Captain Swan.

 

In all seriousness, I don't think it's weird that Regina would go after a love interest. She wants to one up the heroes, and True Love seems to be the trend. There was also Daniel, whom she pictured as her life's dream. I could totally see having a man equating to a happy ending for her. She has been called a "seductress" and had a man in her bed for 30 years, for crying out loud. I don't see how she wouldn't be absolutely man-hungry.

Edited April 10, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[scarynikki12]

I always thought that either Prince John or King Richard could have worked for Regina.  It would depend on whether they were their Disney versions, as Disney John is more suited (a power and money hungry nut who is willing to stomp on his subjects to get what he wants) as is Real Richard (was perfectly fine destroying lives while waging that, to quote Disney John, "crazy Crusade").  Regina would find a lot of common ground with either man.  They both have the lion thing going on as well if the tattoo had to be in play.  I do agree that there was no need for Regina to get a love interest this early in the series, but I think the show got bored with repairing her relationship with Henry and decided to distract us with the shiny new love interest.

 

I feel like Robin was an instance where the producers were depending on the audience to be familiar with the legend and/or animated movie in lieu of actual character development.  The problem, of course, is that Marian is a significant part of said legend and the way she was treated ultimately hurts Robin as a character.  I'm still waiting for Lady Cluck to show up and beat Robin up like she did those hippos and rhinos for mistreating her Marian.

[Dani-Ellie]

If they really felt the need to give her a soulmate, they would have done better to have picked someone from a far away realm with no connection to her actions the Evil Queen.

 

This is my exact problem with shipping Regina with anyone currently on the show. The show is so hell-bent on making everyone connected in their pasts that they've completely botched the opportunity to give Regina a love interest whom she didn't personally screw over during her reign as the Evil Queen. Robin could have been that person but then they had to go and make Regina be the one to imprison Marian and now as far as I'm concerned, the whole thing is so very icky.

 

Because the fact of the matter is, all that pain and grief Robin went through losing Marian and having to try to raise Roland on his own was because of Regina. In one timeline, Regina executes Marian. In the other timeline, Regina imprisons Marian, who then escapes and time travels with Emma and Hook. Either way, Regina is responsible for breaking up that family. She clearly didn't care at the time that she was breaking up a family; how much you want to bet it never even occurred to her that this woman she's imprisoning and sentencing to death may have people out there who love her and would miss her? That same pain that Cora inflicted on her, she inflicted on Robin.

 

But the show refuses to go there. It refuses to allow the characters to acknowledge Regina's role in separating Robin from Marian in the first place. So now you've got this relationship that's surviving based on ... what? Lust? Because why wouldn't Robin be utterly disgusted to find out that Regina imprisoned Marian? Does he even know? If you're not going to use the plot you set up in a realistic manner, show, why even bring it up??

 

But for me, this relationship is so very unhealthy because once again, you've got a victim in love with his abuser. Regina may not have done anything to Robin's person but she split up his family. And by some miracle, he gets his loving wife back and he's in love with the woman who took her from him in the first place but we never see them acknowledge the elephant in the room. And he's so in love with Regina that his wife, miraculously returned from the dead, is dying again, and he goes off and sleeps with the woman who took her from him in the first place. That's just all kinds of messed up.

 

So yeah, I really need for Regina's love interest to be someone who had no previous dealings with her whatsoever.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Dani-Ellie