S03.E13: Canaries

[GirlWednesday]

Reading everyone's comments, I'm passing on this episode. Thanks to everyone who took one for the team (team "wtf is happening" arrow).

Your comments are entertaining and a salve to the disappointment of this show!

[Tangerine]

Technically, yes. But the meaning behind the Bechdel test is about women having respect for each other and when person A tarnishes the memory of her dead friend in order to prop person B, that doesn't count for me.  Like the voice synthesizer, it will always be showing just how low they're willing to take Felicity to make Laurel happen.  The absolute low point of the episode.

 

Agreed. The Bechdel Test alone is also not enough to determine the quality of female representation. I'm just not sure what kind of feminist message we're sending when your means of encouraging one woman is to completely discount the good things another woman did. Again, my frustration with this is that instead of spending time realistically developing Laurel as a character, they use plot and circumstances to prop her up and it's lazy and annoying. I didn't even have a problem with KC this episode. I thought she was perfectly fine and serviceable with what she was given. I blame this mess completely on the writers.

 

What are the chances that Thea DIDN'T actually kill Sara and that Malcolm manipulated that footage and is playing the long con as some way for Thea and Oliver to destroy one another?

 

Nah, the writers and MG are way too creatively bankrupt to think of something that clever.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Tangerine

[Delphi]

Please let it be faked footage! By the gods I demand it!

[silversauce]

Great episode. Faith restored. Even though it's not the typical formula, I understand that they are trying to broaden the Arrow team, and I think they're doing a pretty good job of that, albeit quickly.

The whole back-sassing of Oliver was awkward as hell, and I felt it was a little overboard. Sure Oliver needed to understand that they had found a way to go on without him, and that some things had changed, but that doesn't mean that now that he's back they can just be insubordinate whenever they feel like it, especially when Laurel is lying on the table. Ollie handled it pretty well, though. I like how he just kind of backed off instead of blowing up like he might of earlier on in his character arc. And then when he came back and acknowledged Laurel. That was sweet.

Feeling really annoyed with the writers (?) when it comes to Felicity's behavior with Oliver this episode. I understand that she's angry and a strong character, but usually she is also reasonable. Yet right now she's passive-aggressively undermining Oliver at every turn instead of just talking to him honestly. Can't wait to get past all this drama. Well, at least the scene with Laurel was really touching, though. I gotta say, even though I miss the core Fearsome Threesome, I think this expansion could turn out...good. Surprise, surprise.

Everything with Laurel and Sara was great. And then the scene with Lance was so heart wrenching. 'Nuff said.

And I love how Oliver told Thea and she was just like "Thank god you're not the flake I thought you were." Painless, like quickly ripping off a band-aid. Diggle was great too. Diggle: keeping Arrow episodes grounded since S1. Thank you. Plus I love the bromance developing between Maseo and Oliver in the flashbacks. Adorable.

While last week was a huge disappointment, this week was a pretty good bounce back episode.

Well everything with Laurel/Felicity was great except for the part where Felicity insinuated that Sara had no light inside of her. That kind of made me sad. It also made me wonder if she would say the same thing about Oliver. brb crying

[writersblock51]

I watched the show in full snark mode but off the DVR so that I could gauge what to expect.

 

In no particular order...

 

Oliver and Thea - I think Malcolm's reasoning was a bit off BUT whatever gets Thea into the loop about Oliver, fine. It's not like logic applies anyway. I enjoyed the reveal to Thea, with less words at first, relying instead on the lights coming on bit by bit.  The whole scene was well done and massive kudos to SA and WH for using facial expressions and body language to express so much. Oliver's patent relief at her reaction nearly broke my heart.

 

But here's the thing... the final look on Thea's face during their hug - we see it, Oliver doesn't - unnerved me a bit. So much so that I rewound to watch it again. I think she already knew his I'm the Arrow secret. In fact, I think she's playing a con on him with MM's blessing.  To what end, I don't know, but that one look?  Suspicious, IMO.

 

Moving on...

 

Roy - I appreciate that he has more confidence. I think it's been some time in coming. I'd hope for more training but this show rushes in, so fine.  But his confidence also rings hollow because he's flipping on his stance on Malcolm just like his parkour-tranq pattern.  His view on Malcolm seems to mirror Thea's - normal, to a point. but not admirable and certainly not worth a vote in terms of what the team ought to do.

 

Felicity - had a couple of shade lines ("You're leaving again" in that voice) but otherwise... I was not happy with the writing. I think EBR did a fine job but I think it was a rough episode for her character.  I think her smack down of Oliver was 99.99% about their relationship as a couple and hardly about the team dynamics.  I wish someone had reminded her (and Diggle and Roy) that the team may have tried their best while he was gone but things had gone to hell in the Glades nonetheless.  Brick inexplicably took control after a week, I think. The mayor gave up shortly there after and never bothered to ask for help (like the National Guard).  Laurel's Canary was still WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY over her head.    So, no, team. I don't think Oliver deserved to be smacked down. By any of them. 

 

Diggle - I love Diggle but why wasn't he in the field. There is no valid reason for him staying in the lair during the fighting. None.  Oh wait, I know - it's because this was all about....

 

Laurel - there is no way I will like her, root for her or respect her. She should be training non stop, give up her day job as an ADA and go somewhere to do the training. Because she stinks. She has to be rescued twice. After insisting that she doesn't need help.

 

KC's stunt double did a very good job. I personally found the Canary vs Canary fights confusing, though. I ended up focusing on the buckles on the pants to know who was who.  Lovely....

 

Quentin - Paul Blackthorne did a great job. He always nails the heartbroken stuff to the point that I need tissues.  I hope we get more of his reaction next episode. Such as how will he feel when he finds out how long Sara's been dead, how she died, how and where she is buried and who knew. I hope Laurel and Dinah get the brunt of his anger. I also hope Laurel takes the full responsibility of being the one who decided to keep the truth for him THIS WHOLE TIME and telling everyone to lie to Quentin at her request.  And that Dinah encouraged her to find the killer outside of legal channels.  How proud he'll be...

 

Hong Kong - I like Maseo, a lot. But this flashbacks this episode were either blah or extremely disturbing (waterboarding - wish they'd left it out). What did we learn that we didn't already know that would be helpful to know?

 

NOTHING.

 

But possibly this: Thea had substance abuse problems at that time, pre Vertigo of S1.  If Thea becomes Speedy, could this drug use be the nod to Speedy's drug addiction in the comics?

 

Otherwise, Waller remains evil for the sake of being evil but still has no agency.  Why on earth is Oliver so critical to her plans? Will this ever be explained?  and how will it play into current day?

 

I miss Moira. I really wish the show hadn't killed her off. I think Moira and Malcolm's battle over Thea would have made for good storytelling on the show and further all three character's development in the process.

 

Sara - I'm still bitter about her death and this episode merely ramped up the feelings I had. I don't understand this show. I really don't. After all the screen time of Season 2, the investment in writing her past and present (with implications of so much that we could understand how it ALL determined who she'd become).... to just piss it all away is baffling and upsetting.  The 'light' talk is equally baffing. How much does Felicity really know Laurel?  Didn't Felicity ask her, not that long ago, if they were favor friends?  Where did the closeness begin with these 2?   Didn't Laurel herself acknowledge the darkness inside her that wouldn't ever leave?  Hallucination Sara was entertaining to a fault (I always enjoy CL in a stunt scene) but then she called Laurel a 'bitch' and I was DONE. I was furious, in fact.

 

Either the show forgot Sara's very strong contempt for that specific word OR Laurel's subconscious exposed how little she knew Sara after all. I don't suppose we'll ever know which but it took me completely out of the scene in a very angry way.

 

The only stunt that I actually enjoyed was when Oliver and Roy jumped out of the exploding buidling.  It was after that scene that I realized that the stunts have been a lot less impressive and frequent from last year. Or at least it feels that way to me.

 

Why didn't Laurel's face show how badly she'd been beaten?  She should have been a horrible, mishapen mess for the rest of the episode. 

 

I found Count Vertigo very underwhelming this epsiode, which can be added to the list of tragedies that is this episode.

 

I don't understand Malcolm's reasoning of going to Lian Yu. Why do they need to go there? Oh right, to see Slade.

 

*eye roll*

 

Ra's still seems so distant and not scary that I'm changing my mind about who is the Big Bad of the season.  I had thought Malcolm but then I figured it was Ra's. I mean, it's Ra's Al Ghul. Of course he'd be the Big Bad.

 

But there's a distinct lack of urgent threat from him (so far) that contrasts greatly from Deathstroke's plan this time last year.  If a viewer of the show isn't a Batman fan, would Ra's seem scary? I don't think so.

 

At this point, my money is on Waller/ARGUS and possibly even HIVE.  Who knows? Maybe it's China White. Waller certainly can't wait to kill her.

 

One last thought - is there any chance that the episodes since 3.10 are really one big dream/nightmare of Oliver's? I think I'd prefer that.

Edited February 13, 2015 by writersblock51

[Actionmage]

Otherwise, Waller remains evil for the sake of being evil but still has no agency.

 

I am not understanding this sentence. The woman can kidnap and torture anyone she damn well pleases, apparently anywhere on the globe, but she has no agency? How is that so?

[writersblock51]

Who are her targets and why? My take is that she could have a plan that all of this is leading to but I have no idea what it is and how Oliver fits into it. So in the meantime, her thugs and Oliver/Maseo do her bidding. They do it because she threatens them but what is it that she's ultimately after?  and why should I, as a viewer, care?

 

I know that Oliver makes it back to Starling City eventually, his mother and sister and best friend were NOT killed off while Waller was constantly threatening him.  So I know, as a viewer, that her threats don't come to fruition.

 

Maybe 'agency' isn't the best word. Perhaps 'purpose' is better?

Edited February 13, 2015 by writersblock51

[statsgirl]

I'd like to think that the episodes from 310 are Oliver's wound-induced dream but the writing seems too determined to make Laurel the Black Canary.  Right now it feels like they would sacrifice everything else on the show to get to Green Arrow/Black Canary if they could, Diggle, Felicity, the whole crusade and flashbacks, everything they've set up.  So unfortunately, I thin this is the new Arrow show.

 

 

But here's the thing... the final look on Thea's face during their hug - we see it, Oliver doesn't - unnerved me a bit. So much so that I rewound to watch it again. I think she already knew his I'm the Arrow secret. In fact, I think she's playing a con on him with MM's blessing.  To what end, I don't know, but that one look?  Suspicious, IMO.

I noticed that and hoped I was wrong.  I don't feel strong enough at this point to go through a whole "Thea is evul and has a plan" story.

 

Also, if Thea goes bad then we're stuck with Felicity and Laurel as BFFs forever. I was hoping Thea would take Laurel off Felicity's hands.

[Actionmage]

I know that Oliver makes it back to Starling City eventually, his mother and sister and best friend were NOT killed off while Waller was constantly threatening him.  So I know, as a viewer, that her threats don't come to fruition.

 

Maybe 'agency' isn't the best word. Perhaps 'purpose' is better?

 

Okay, I see now. Yes, purpose is better. She is a crutch/prop or possibly Strawman- Evil Government Boogeyperson flavor. Agency is more about how autonomous Waller is, and she is HBIC, by the way she acts and has legions of dark-suited minions obey her without a thought, not counting Maseo and Ollie.

 

See, I read the comics on the Suicide Squad and the Waller in Arrow isn't near as actually scary as comics Waller. She's meaner and nastier and needlessly more violent, but at least comics Waller had plans. She could surprise and counter-move on Batman, that's how actually badass Waller is. The TV version? My DH told me to start using quotes around the name so I don't get angrier. *g*  I feel your confusion and frustration.

 

The thing about what her overall plan may be? There actually may not be one. They are in the spy biz and projects do come and go. She clearly cannot trust Maseo and Oliver, so she gives them the barest of information and treats them like overly hostile witnesses. Either "it will all be made clear" at the end of the series or there is no grand plan. With these writers and this show? I would bet on the latter.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Actionmage

[kismet]

I'd like to think that the episodes from 310 are Oliver's wound-induced dream but the writing seems too determined to make Laurel the Black Canary. Right now it feels like they would sacrifice everything else on the show to get to Green Arrow/Black Canary if they could, Diggle, Felicity, the whole crusade and flashbacks, everything they've set up. So unfortunately, I thin this is the new Arrow show.

I noticed that and hoped I was wrong. I don't feel strong enough at this point to go through a whole "Thea is evul and has a plan" story.

Also, if Thea goes bad then we're stuck with Felicity and Laurel as BFFs forever. I was hoping Thea would take Laurel off Felicity's hands.

I saw look too, but I'm gonna hope it means nothing. Remember in season 1, Thea thought he might be the vigilante cuz of the arrowhead he gave her & he made up the dumb lie about the airport gift store. I think that Thea may have the thought about it then and mentally put it away. So when he went missing she was worried, asked Roy for help revealing she knows he's the red arrow. Then O came back the same night as arrow with that dumb jail story - Thea is not dumb. She might not have called him on his lies, but similar to felicity s1 she was not was surprised when it was revealed he was the arrow. She still gonna feel a little dumb like she told Roy for not recognizing O cuz of the hood, but other than the fight, has she really been that close to arrow to actually she under the hood? So I'm gonna believe her response was genuine & authentic. I love their sibling bond, hated that it got so strained in s2 w/ mm lies. Hope they can spend more time together, now that she knows. As for her switching allegiances so quickly that's just what she does. Thea I think is smart, but most decisions that she makes can get clouded by her impulsivity. Learning to deal with her father's & brother's death at young age stunted some of her emotional growth. She's became someone that lives in the moment, so her decisions dont always line up together in a tight plan, because there is no plan. She chooses to do something like trust mm & train with him because it made sense at that time in her head. Problem with living in the moment is it will eventually catch up with u. So although I don't think she's evil or has an agenda now, she could fall prey to a trap or put herself iN a situation that leads her to turning bad thru no fault of her own. So potential is there. But right now, I'm just gonna enjoy the O/T love & hug that was missing for so long.

[tv echo]

Here's what I don't get...

 

Hallucination Quentin pushed Laurel to tell her father (finally) the truth about Sara, which is good - but I don't see that Hallucination Sara changed anything.  I know that on paper this episode is supposed to be about Laurel conquering her fears and guilt about trying to be her sister, not being as good, and being a fraud, and that with Felicity's support, she realizes that she can be her own kind of vigilante.  But at the end of the day, nothing's really changed - except that Laurel has managed to squelch her subconscious (and conscience) in the form of Hallucination Sara so that she can continue to do what she wants to do anyway.  It may sound like semantics but it's not. 

 

Laurel is still dressing like a clone of her sister, even wearing Sara's long blonde wig.  Maybe it's her way of honoring her sister, but it's creepy in a Norman-Bates-dressing-like-his-mother kind of way.  (I know that's the iconic comic BC look, but the mistake was in making Sara too much like the comics BC in the first place.)  At least mark this transformative experience by having Laurel put away Sara's wig and get her own wig in a different color and style.  Have her debut an entirely new look that won't be mistaken for Sara's Canary.  If she's serious about not being her sister anymore, then she should stop trying to fool criminals into thinking she's the Dread Pirate Roberts.  Plus her motivation for becoming a vigilante still seems to be that she wants to be a hero like her sister.  I still remember that scene last season when Laurel watched Sara/Canary carry a child out of a burning building.  She had this half-envious, half-proud look on her face.  That's the moment when I thought 'Laurel wants to be her sister.'  Well, mission accomplished.

Edited February 13, 2015 by tv echo

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Part of me felt bad for Oliver when Felicity and Roy started the "you're not the boss of me" talk. But then I remembered how much worse it was when Buffy got thrown out of her own house by the likes of Kennedy and Dawn and I was like pfffft, it's okay, Oliver. You will definitely get past this.

 

One thing that annoyed me about Laurel was how she referred to herself as a hero. You know what heroes don't do? Call themselves heroes. Ha, then there are the heroes who find a synonym for the word hero and then beat that word into the ground (see: Angel/champion).

[Velocity23]

Ok i need clarification. Were Merlyn & flipper Roy just hanging outside Theas apartment while she & DJ Zombie were getting their freak on?

[romantic idiot]

Evidently. 

[BunsenBurner]

Watched the show last night with friends.

Laurel. What a mess. When she was on the table doing her version of a vertigo freak out she looked like a robot whose circuits had fried. That was a good laugh. Her comment about being a hero completely shows that she is still delusional.

Thea knew Oliver was the Arrow and I believe she and Malcolm are conning Oliver. Can't comment anymore on her because everything my friends had to say was filthy. Funny but . . .

Roy is an idiot, his beliefs are whatever the writers need them to be from scene to scene.

Sara we miss you so much, your genuine smile and your fighting skills and so much more. You were so wronged by this show.

Diggle you need more scenes..

Felicity the major proper or is it propper? The writers are doing you an injustice.

Oliver you may be the Arrow but the writers, again, seem to have forgotten that you are the star of the show.

I blame this mess of a show on the writers. M Pedowitz and company need to step in.

[KirkB]

Laurel is still dressing like a clone of her sister, even wearing Sara's long blonde wig.  Maybe it's her way of honoring her sister, but it's creepy in a Norman-Bates-dressing-like-his-mother kind of way.  (I know that's the iconic comic BC look, but the mistake was in making Sara too much like the comics BC in the first place.)

 

 

This is a good point. While I get the comics! angle Sara's costume never made much sense to me. Half the reason for wearing a wig and mask is to disguise yourself but what good does it do to try and cover bright blond hair with bright blond hair? From a narrative point of view it also would have worked better if they gave her a variation of the Canary's suit but left the 'real' Canary suit, including the blond wig, for Laurel since they always intended her to be the Black Canary anyway. Keeping this on topic, one thing I noticed about the fight scene between the Canary's was how impractical the wigs are period. The stuntwomen might not have had a problem with it since they get to stop and do retakes but it looked to me like that hair was going to be swinging around and getting in their eyes and what is to stop someone from grabbing it and pulling it off their head?

[SonofaBiscuit]

I went through the episode to watch a few scenes, and one thing I found annoying was the conversation between Diggle and Oliver while they were drinking at the bar.  Oliver about Laurel, "She's not a soldier" and then Diggle responds, "Neither are you."  Seriously, Diggle?  No, Oliver was never in the military, but he was pretty much Amanda Waller's personal soldier, and he's endured some fairly awful shit (torture, waterboarding, being stabbed and shot, killing people, etc.).  That piece of dialogue was idiotic. 

[Password]

...can I interest you in "he said it for plot"?

I feel like I'm selling an agent that will really help through these trying times.

[catrox14]

I actually thought Sara's wigs made a difference. Sara's hair was darker honey blonde and her wig was platinum. But more importantly when Sara donned the wig and the costume she became a different person, she became The Black Canary. Her posture, her attitude, the look in her eyes, everything was very different than Sara. It was heroic.

With Laurel, I see no discernible difference in who she is with or without the costume her demeanor is the same etc, which IMO is not heroic and it reflects the same self centered person. IMO she isn't doing it for the greater good, she is using it to hide from herself, to escape who she is. Whereas Sara did it to make up for what she had be doing. Oliver is doing it to make up for some things he did and to honor his father and Tommy.

[wonderwall]

You know you're really onto something... Sara, when she took the mask off, was always somehow softer looking and it had everything to do with her facial expressions. But when she put the mask on, she essentially hardened with the "don't mess with me" face. 

 

With Laurel, she just has the same face. I mean, maybe it's KC and she has trouble moving her face (as per David Ramsey), but maybe that's her character. There is no softness in Laurel at all except when it comes to Quentin. Or maybe she is that arrogant. It's one of the three possibilities. 

Edited February 13, 2015 by wonderwall

[Sakura12]

Caity said she played it that way. When she was playing Sara, she was full of torture and guilt, she held her body tighter and closer. When she was in the Canary costume she was confident and badass. She held her head high and shoulders back. Being a dancer for most of her life probably helped her know how to use her body to convey emotions and feelings.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Sakura12

[statsgirl]

I went through the episode to watch a few scenes, and one thing I found annoying was the conversation between Diggle and Oliver while they were drinking at the bar.  Oliver about Laurel, "She's not a soldier" and then Diggle responds, "Neither are you."  Seriously, Diggle?  No, Oliver was never in the military, but he was pretty much Amanda Waller's personal soldier, and he's endured some fairly awful shit (torture, waterboarding, being stabbed and shot, killing people, etc.).  That piece of dialogue was idiotic. 

Diggle hasn't been hit as much as Felicity but they've both been suffering as characters this season.  I guess the assumption is that people like them therefore they're Teflon to say ridiculous things for other characters.

 

Hallucination Quentin pushed Laurel to tell her father (finally) the truth about Sara, which is good - but I don't see that Hallucination Sara changed anything.  I know that on paper this episode is supposed to be about Laurel conquering her fears and guilt about trying to be her sister, not being as good, and being a fraud, and that with Felicity's support, she realizes that she can be her own kind of vigilante.  But at the end of the day, nothing's really changed - except that Laurel has managed to squelch her subconscious (and conscience) in the form of Hallucination Sara so that she can continue to do what she wants to do anyway.  It may sound like semantics but it's not. 

That's a good point.  And one of the real problems with Laurel is that she never grows, never really has to pay for what she does wrong (shooting the cop last season; hissy fit when Sara returned).  She would be easier to like if she atoned for her sins and grew as a person.

 

You know who faces her fears and conquers them? Felicity, but the show never acknowledges that.

 

. Keeping this on topic, one thing I noticed about the fight scene between the Canary's was how impractical the wigs are period. The stuntwomen might not have had a problem with it since they get to stop and do retakes but it looked to me like that hair was going to be swinging around and getting in their eyes and what is to stop someone from grabbing it and pulling it off their head?

It stuns me that on Agent Carter, bob length Peggy ties her hair back when she goes into a fight but the Canary hair is always in full swing. Tara, sit your husband down and have a talk with him.

[BunsenBurner]

^MG is bald after all and he is a mysoginistic man.

[writersblock51]

Wigs are a good idea in terms of helping to mask an identity but long hair (loose, in a pony tail or braid, or a wig) is a HORRIBLE choice in fighting. Look at the female boxers and fighters - their hair is tightly scraped back and twisted into a bun or braid - and then seems matted down. There's little to grab onto.

 

Felicity's pony tail is problematic.  Thea, Lyla and Waller know what they're doing.  But Arrow's villains are the same long risk - Cupid, China White and Huntress.

 

Black Widow's shortened hair in the Avengers & Captain America 2 made far more sense than her flowing locks in Iron Man 2. SImilar to Peggy Carter's functionable yet stylish and flattering style.

 

But long, flowing hair has long been a staple in comics, movies and tv. It flows, looks feminine to some, and is still extremely impractical. But as long as the looks matter more than functionality, the long hair is here to stay for most female characters.

 

I don't know if Sara needed the wig to change her attitude as much as the outfit.  I don't recall if CL ever talked about the wig separately. I know KC did and it was all about aesthetics. *eyeroll*

 

I was not happy with Digg's comments to Oliver that basically cut Oliver's experiences down while propping Laurel's up. It was completely unbelievable to me and seemed rather OOC.  Digg has connected to Oliver numerous times in the past because of their similar fighting and violent experiences; Oliver has never once diminshed Digg's experience. I'd really love to know what DR thinks about Digg's about face regarding Laurel on the team and out on the field.

[Actionmage]

I'd really love to know what DR thinks about Digg's about face regarding Laurel on the team and out on the field.

 

I'd like to hear Mr. Ramsey's thoughts on his character's upcoming nuptuals, if Oliver's his best man- and what that will entail, if so, how Dig is managing work/home balance now that Sara's in his life.

 

Maybe, if Oliver hadn't returned, we'd have Dig balancing being a stay-at-home dad and do nights as part of Team Arrow. Or, now here's why Dig should have been left in the HQ during this storyline: He's in charge of Sara while Lyla's on a mission. See? Levity and a reasonable reason, sorta. Still a damn sight better than Because The Script Says So.

[Sakura12]

I don't think CL talked much about the wig, besides saying it was a Dolly Parton looking wig. She did say the corset was intuitive to martial arts fighting (sarcastically of course)

 

Oliver's hood is just as impractical as the wigs, why would anyone want to block any of their visual field? 

[Ang]

I feel like this episode is a textbook example of what happens when you push writing down too far on the production totem pole. They seriously need to pump some more money into the writing room. Maybe add another layer of editing so you don't have this level of inconsistency between episodes/lack of support for alleged character development? Or heck, even a couple extra whiteboards so they can track plot, characterization and emotional state a little better.

The episode wasn't so bad if you pretend we actual saw what they said we saw, either in this episode or earlier episodes. And if you ignored the horrible canary fight scenes - those were just bad, from the costuming, to the choreography, to the filming, to the dialogue and probably several other behind-the-scenes elements.

I think KC's had decent scenes here and there, and I looked up a few clips from other shows where she doesn't do a bad job, But I HATE the body language she gives Laurel. She folds her arms, sticks out her chest, and tucks her chin, and I despise it so much. Maybe she's going for powerful? Like when she uses an overly dramatic voice in the courtroom scenes, as if using derogatory tones when referring to a defendant is going to sway a judge. It all adds up to what seems to be a lack of self- and real world-awareness, and between that and the sorry writing for her character, I can't even with her.

I like that Felicity is still supporting (I mean, standing up for and being a friend to) people, and I like that she stands up to Oliver. That's always been one of my favorite things about her. She's so tiny and geeky and middle class and he's this big jock-like playboy from the upper class who is literally physically deadly, and the apparent power disparity doesn't even phase her. She won't hesitate to tell him what's up, and I love it. Bravest hero in the joint.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Ang

[bmjax]

Well I must be easy to please because I really enjoyed this episode. I teared up a bit during the Oliver, Thea scene. He was so ready for her to reject him, and she opened her arms and accepted him. I really love the dynamics between these two characters.  I also am enjoying LL as the black canary. I like that she admitted to being afraid last week. This week I continued to enjoy her scenes with Oliver and Quentin.  I like how she can disagree and argue with Oliver, then they are over it and getting things done. No nasty little comments, recriminations etc.  LL and her Dad, just I can't. I loved the scene. 

 

So to sum up the episode I really enjoyed Oliver, LL, Thea and MM (I just can't help it, no matter what he does I love him, I don't care and this is fiction, I don't have to care).

 

As to the rest:

Dear Roy, and Felicity (but not Diggle because he wanted to diffuse not push the confrontation)

You sucked at protecting the city when Oliver was recovering from being stabbed and kicked off of a cliff. You lost the Glades in one week and risked the lives of everyone living in the Glades to almost win it back (which would not have happened without MM and Oliver).   Oliver was not on vacation stop treating him as though he was.  You were overly harsh and wrong. Also Roy, stop flip flopping on your position on MM, pick a stance and stay with it. I am getting whiplash with his vacillating.  

 

Lastly, I think I am officially over Felicity. I was so frustrated with her after Sara's death but this episode out the nail in the coffin for me. I thought that she was out of line and well petty. When Oliver mentioned that Laurel was doing something reckless, Felicity under her breathe made a snide comment that she wasn't. Well guess what, she was and almost died. Then when they were working on saving Laurel, she decided that was the time to set Oliver straight with how things worked now. Nice timing. 

If you asked me last year who I liked better felicity or Laurel it was not even a competition, Felicity. Now I am starting to prefer laurel.

Don't even get me started on the light comments. Bleh

[wonderwall]

If you asked me last year who I liked better felicity or Laurel it was not even a competition, Felicity. Now I am starting to prefer laurel.

Don't even get me started on the light comments. Bleh

 

Eh, can't win 'em all :p

 

I for one am far from being disillusioned by Felicity. I personally won't give her flack for voicing what everyone was feeling. Including Diggle. Could she have done it more tactfully? Sure, but at that point Oliver was acting like he was the boss of everyone so I sort of get why Felicity would yell at him for that. And look, Oliver actually listened to her! Isn't that important? Oliver is such a hard headed person that I feel like it only takes Felicity yelling at him to actually make him see some sense. Like Diggle/Felicity/Roy said at one point I'm sure, what they're doing is bigger than Oliver. And Oliver needs to figure that out. 

 

Regardless, the past 3 episodes constituted Felicity propping Ray and Laurel with her nonsense comments that don't really make sense and are inconsistent with Felicity's character. So I'm not going to really fault her character for the last 3 episodes but more the writers. 

[statsgirl]

Does anything think it was strange that when Thea went downstairs to talk to Oliver and saw a figure in black leather and blonde hair lying on the table but was blocked from seeing her face, she jumped very quickly to the conclusion that it was Laurel  (i.e. she already knew)? Or does she think that Oliver's social circle is so limited nowadays that if there is a female on the table, it must be Laurel?

 I think KC's had decent scenes here and there, and I looked up a few clips from other shows where she doesn't do a bad job, But I HATE the body language she gives Laurel. She folds her arms, sticks out her chest, and tucks her chin, and I despise it so much. Maybe she's going for powerful? Like when she uses an overly dramatic voice in the courtroom scenes, as if using derogatory tones when referring to a defendant is going to sway a judge. It all adds up to what seems to be a lack of self- and real world-awareness, and between that and the sorry writing for her character, I can't even with her.

Yes, that's her powerful look.  It's the same posture she has in the courtroom.  She does have decent scenes, I liked her in the courtroom at the start of 3x10, but that's rather damning with faint praise.

 

 

Lastly, I think I am officially over Felicity. I was so frustrated with her after Sara's death but this episode out the nail in the coffin for me. I thought that she was out of line and well petty. When Oliver mentioned that Laurel was doing something reckless, Felicity under her breathe made a snide comment that she wasn't. Well guess what, she was and almost died. Then when they were working on saving Laurel, she decided that was the time to set Oliver straight with how things worked now. Nice timing.

I don't know what you didn't like about her after Sara's death because I thought she showed how much she was mourning Sara but I think the writing for Felicity sucked here sky high.  I don't remember the convo about Laurel doing something reckless and Felicity supporting her but every person is supporting Laurel being in the field except Oliver. and every person is also saying that Oliver has to stop bossing them around.  Roy started telling Oliver he can't tell them what to do any more. Why is Felicity getting the shade?  Because she's the woman?

 

MG apparently thinks that because Felicity/EBR is so popular he can do anything with the character and she will still be loved. This episode proves him wrong.

[BkWurm1]

There was a line about Laurel going out on her own or maybe it was recklessly out on her own (cause Oliver put a tracker on her) and Felicity agreed she was out but she didn't know about her being reckless. (Cause they didn't know what she was doing)

[bmjax]

I can say with all honesty my frustration with Felicity has nothing to do with her sex.   I am an equal opportunity character disliker (not sure if that is a word but I will go with it). It might seems amazing but it is just her character this season that I don't like.

I stated my issues with Roy, but seeing as he was never a favorite of mine, eh whatever.  I would like to point out the comment about Laurel not being reckless was done in a snotty passive aggressive tone (in my opinion). And while Oliver can't tell everyone what to do it seems that gee he was right. Laurel was being reckless and almost got herself killed, and would have had he not planted the tracker.

[BkWurm1]

I didn't find that one filled with much of a tone. More of a statement, yes the kind you make sure to say when you are not particularly happy with someone but I can't fault Felicity. I'm pissed at Oliver too.

[Password]

I'm pissed at the writers. I'm not buying what they're selling.

[Tangerine]

I think the long flowing hair for a lot of fight sequences is definitely to disguise the use of stunt doubles more easily.  

 

Peter Stormare chewing the scenery was entertaining, but I thought even he was phoning it in this episode.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Tangerine

[statsgirl]

The question of whether Oliver has a right or a responsibility to put a tracker on Laurel could actually be an interesting moral question if the writing didn't rush through everything.

 

Oliver doesn't think that Laurel is a good enough fighter to be out on her own.  He's right, but he's not the boss of her. She's an adult competent to make her own decisions, and he has no legal right to stop her. Does he have a moral right? Or is he overstepping his bounds and making his own life more difficult in the process.

 

Should he have the right to put a tracker on her?  Is it his responsibility to save her if something bad happens?

Discuss.

[catrox14]

Possibly controversial opinion ahead.

 

Here's how I look at it. Oliver has been and IMO is still the boss of everyone in the lair. If he wanted to, he could kick them all out and tell them to go and build their own space.

 

Yes, Laurel is theoretically an adult making her own choices but she is also now a member of TA /hork.  He could have asked her but really he didn't have too. Their jobs are not like any other people. It's not the same thing as Ray tracking Felicity's phone for his own person reasons. Oliver is  tracking Laurel as a member of Team Arrow. Her safety ensures TA safety.

 

If she goes missing or gets captured, the team knows where she is. YMMV

[wonderwall]

Ughhh. I think that he should've. Because if he didn't, Laurel would be dead...

 

On second thought, I don't think he should've. Because then Laurel would be dead. 

Edited February 13, 2015 by wonderwall

[catrox14]

Ughhh. I think that he should. Because if he didn't, Laurel would be dead...

 

On second thought, I don't think he should've. Because Laurel would be dead. 

 

I regret that I have only one upvote to give this comment. 

[Password]

But don't you know? Oliver must fall in line because the team makes decisions now.

Agh didn't he tell Laurel to screw off? I have so little time for this storyline. Laurel IS a liability. The fact that just everyone on team Arrow is backing her grates on my teeth.

[Tangerine]

As much as I dislike Laurel, I don't take any joy in seeing her getting beaten on every week. For one, it's a little triggering and for another, it just continues to paint Laurel as an idiot. She's obviously not ready, she needs more training so why in the world does she stubbornly insist on going out there? It's not brave, it's just dumb. I didn't like the way Oliver talked to her, but heck, he's right and she doesn't acknowledge that he might have a point until AFTER she has the daylights kicked out of her.

 

It really is a grey area with Oliver putting the tracker on her. I mean technically, no, he had no right. But given the circumstances I think he would have felt personally responsible if something did happen to her and frankly he doesn't need that on his conscience.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Tangerine

[dtissagirl]

Finally watched this episode. I guess this is what being punk'd feels like?

A few weeks ago I posted here that I thought the way they would deal with all of the narrative problems they had with Laurel was they would make a list of all of them, and then they'd mention them, one by one, so they could be solved by lampshading. Oh well. I was right. That's the narrative function they found for hallucination!Sara and hallucination!Quentin.

I should play the lottery instead of watching this show.

Edited February 13, 2015 by dancingnancy

[BkWurm1]

Finally watched this episode. I guess this is what being punk'd feels like?

A few weeks ago I posted here that I thought the way they would deal with all of the narrative problems they had with Laurel was they would make a list of all of them, and then they'd mention them, one by one, so they could be solved by lampshading. Oh well. I was right. That's the narrative function they found for hallucination!Sara and hallucination!Quentin.

I should play the lottery instead of watching this show.

Only works if the lottery is being run by the same idiots. 

[teddy-bear]

Possibly controversial opinion ahead.

 

Here's how I look at it. Oliver has been and IMO is still the boss of everyone in the lair. If he wanted to, he could kick them all out and tell them to go and build their own space.

 

Yes, Laurel is theoretically an adult making her own choices but she is also now a member of TA /hork.  He could have asked her but really he didn't have too. Their jobs are not like any other people. It's not the same thing as Ray tracking Felicity's phone for his own person reasons. Oliver is  tracking Laurel as a member of Team Arrow. Her safety ensures TA safety.

 

If she goes missing or gets captured, the team knows where she is. YMMV

Exactly!  Not controversial to me at all - the scenes were completely played as a coup d'etat by the rest of the team.  Well guess what writers, you completely missed the boat on this one....there would be no team if not for Arrow, he decided who to let in, and in Roys case at least, when they were ready for street missions. Yes he needed help to achieve his goals, and Felicity had the expertise he was lacking.  Diggle has always had his back.  Roy is now invaluable as a co-fighter.  Sarah was a brilliant addition to the team.  Most importantly - they are a team,and every team needs a leader. It never was and should never be a democracy - we saw how well that worked when Ollie was recuperating - total anarchy in the glades.  There needs to be a leader, and that is Arrow - not Felicity, not Diggle or Roy or god forbid Laurel.  As the leader he assumes the responsibility for the rest of the team - and with how he managed to survive during his 5 years of hell, it was damned well earned and never should be questioned by the rest of them.  The writers yet again did a huge disservice and a total retcon on Felicity, Diggle and Roy.  In the past, there may have been dissenting opinions by the rest of team Arrow, but never an out and out mutiny, and they were able to make things work just fine.  Ollie compromised when it was needed, he listened and respected their opinions.  Quite aside from the complete disrespect they all showed him on his return, they were written as being downright arrogant, petulant, and just plain nasty. The blood on the sword that Malcolm gave them didn't come from a paper cut, yet not a single one of them showed the least bit of interest or concern for him other than an offhand 'oh we thought you were dead'.  Then it was pretty much straight into 'well you were gone and we managed just dandy  without you so don't think you can come back and call the shots.....get used to it Ollie, there's a new heirarchy in town. Sometimes the choices they make in the writers room just makes me want to throw something at my tv.  

[Ang]

Here's how I look at it. Oliver has been and IMO is still the boss of everyone in the lair. If he wanted to, he could kick them all out and tell them to go and build their own space.

Again, who is funding all of this?!? That is an inescapable part of the power/authority equation. And I can't get into it in more detail because it makes no sense and I'll drive myself crazy.

I didn't mind Roy/the team giving Oliver grief because a) Oliver was acting OOC in yelling at Roy like that; b) the episode was claiming that the team had done a sufficient job while Oliver was away, so c) we obviously weren't in the same universe as the last several weeks; and d) it was fun seeing it, and again, if I start thinking about it too deeply, it all falls apart.

Ray, IMO, wasn't going any further over the legal line than Felicity does on any given night (it's not less illegal to break into things like traffic camera's because you're trackig an alleged criminal). Likewise, tracking Laurel only feels iffy because we know (and to whatever extent like) the trackee as well as the tracker. It's par for the course for them.

That said, I don't think it was his right or responsibility to track her. Her activities were only tangentially related to him at that point. As a friend, though, I think it makes more sense that he knew better than she did what trouble she was likely to run into and wanted to protect her if he could.

I guess my point is, it's all murky ethics in an episode with murky logic and nonexistent consistency.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Ang

[catrox14]

Felicity was more worried about Oliver's decision to ally temporarily with Merlyn than welcoming Oliver home and being happy he was back.  They treated him like he had done something TO them by making this decision vs understanding he must be kind of desperate to make that choice. 

 

IMO they were all being dicks to the guy that inspired them, loved them, and gave them bigger purpose in life.  And IMO Oliver's decision to ally with Merlyn is not a reason to tell them he isn't needed anymore.

[statsgirl]

This is where rushing through storylines so fast hurts the show.

 

Yes, there is a team and Oliver is the leader, and the funder.  But he's always been "My way or the highway", he unilaterally benched Diggle because he was about to become a father, and he's made all the decisions in the relationship between himself and Felicity, which is to tell her he loves her and then cut her off completely.

 

Yes, he almost died but he came back prioritizing his new association with MM instead of his team, working on his plan with Malcolm instead of telling Diggle, Felicity & Roy what had happened to him while he was away.  One comment I read complained that Felicity was heartless because she hugged him so hard when she first saw him she hurt him where he was stabbed. How was she supposed to know he was wounded there?  He didn't say, he didn't show, he didn't tell her that he had changed her/their game plan yet again.  Her life, her choice except that he's not wiling to give it to her.

 

Tracking Laurel is a grey area because she's not ready to fight much less alone but he won't help her or take her with them.  But when Thea came down to talk to him and he said right away "Get out of here right now" as if she was 7 and not 20, that was completely wrong.  That was Roy's point and when Oliver shut him down, Felicity's and later Diggle's.  There is no reason Thea shouldn't have seen a bloody Laurel and every reason why she should since she's getting in the fighting way herself.

 

The closest analogy I can come up with is when a parent sends a kid away to an overnight camp for two or four weeks. The kid comes back having grown up by a year or two because of the independence and the necessity. It's then the parent's job to adjust to that, not to put the kid back into the bottle.

 

While Oliver was gone, his Team grew up and made their own choices why they were going to stay and fight.  It was a crappy way to tell Oliver, yes, but Oliver needs to adapt to who they are now, not who he left.  Good for Diggle for sitting him down and explaining, and maybe one day Oliver will be mature enough to be able to have talked to Diggle, Felicity and Roy first, instead of barking orders and expecting everyone to say "How high?" without question.

 

(Why couldn't the show have said this?)

Edited February 14, 2015 by statsgirl

[catrox14]

But Oliver wasn't off at camp, having fun. He was fighting for his sister's life and fell off a fucking mountain

 

 My problem is that the team seems to think Oliver just stayed away because he was all like "fuck the team".  Sure they carried on without him, presuming he was dead, but IMO they were needlessly harsh to him because of one decision. But even beyond that I think they were treating him oddly for a guy that they should be happy was back. It was handled almost as though they were threatened by his presence again.  And the most annoying part is having them be at odds over Laurel who didn't earn a fucking thing, who made Felicity complicit in the lie to Quentin.

[MsSchadenfreude]

 

There needs to be a leader, and that is Arrow - not Felicity, not Diggle or Roy or god forbid Laurel.  As the leader he assumes the responsibility for the rest of the team - and with how he managed to survive during his 5 years of hell, it was damned well earned and never should be questioned by the rest of them.

 

I disagree with this so much.  The idea that a leader should never be questioned does not work for me at all.  Oliver has made some incredibly poor decisions and the team has every right to call him on that, just as Oliver has the right to call out members of the team (which he does all the time) when they make bad decisions. Oliver is not the only one who is putting his life on the line anymore.  If I am risking my life, you better believe I am going to get a say in how that happens.  And a true leader is someone that understands, it is not always my way or the highway.

[AyChihuahua]

in the metaphor, I think the team was at camp, not Oliver.