S05.E06: Episode 6

Andorra · October 27, 2014

I'm mostly just curious if Isis' butt will be removed from the opening credits after her show death.

It is not Isis' butt anyway. It's Pharao's. The dog in the first season was a boy and his name was Pharao. Isis only appeared in series 2, which started 1916!

I'm sure the family will soon have a new dog and it will look just as the other two.

ElectricBoogaloo · October 27, 2014

I don't want them to kill off Isis but I have no doubt they would replace her with a new dog (with a less offensive name) and that everyone will mourn more than the rest of them have done for Gregson and show more sympathy to Robert than they have for Edith. On the plus side, does that mean I can look forward to scenes of the kids playing with a puppy?!

Helena Dax · October 27, 2014

The scene with lady Violet and prince Kuragin was awesome, I loved their dialogue.

The way everyone ignored Edith was almost funny. But as some people have pointed out, her family doesn't know how close they really were.

I still like Mary. I agree that she was horrid to Edith, but her nastiness doesn't bother me, quite the contrary, it's one of the reasons she's my favourite character in this show. Sometimes it's fun to root for some not-nice characters.

Oh, Thomas... He isn't the nicest person either, but I'm always sorry for him when he has problems because of his sexual orientation. C'mon, show, he totally needs a boyfriend!

Lillith · October 27, 2014

Do we have any clue if Gregson's wife actually existed, and if so if the divorce was finalized? Because I was wondering if all of his possesions would go to her, including the publishing company.

And the fact that he left that to Edith should clue her dense family to the fact that they were indeed an important part of one another's lives.

Mary was so wretched this episode. We get it, she hates her sister. But why exactly are we supposed to like her?

Lillith · October 28, 2014

Yes that whole Beer Hall Putsch scenario designed to shoehorn that awful "Herr Hitler" into the storyline. I was eyerolling pretty hard at that too. And the writing for that scene was so clunky as well. But as soon as I heard Gregson was heading to Munich I knew where he was going with that. At least Edith didn't go all Unity Mitford. Yet.

nora1992 · October 28, 2014

It was only last season when Mary disrupted a bunch of houseparty-goers when she was upset that they used her dead husband's former fiancee's cousin's wedding gift of a phonograph for dancing. Everyone looked at her with sympathy.

How dare Edith not join in the celebrations of the new hairstyle. After all, it isn't like the news of a confirmed/horrible death compares to the presence of the first fiancee's wedding gift!

olivia1 · October 28, 2014

I am not 100% convinced about Gregson being dead.

Especially when Lord G said they found the body or what was left of it. It was like JF was leaving an opening there for his return.

Edited October 28, 2014 by olivia1

ZoloftBlob · October 28, 2014

Especially when Lord G said they found the body or what was left of it. It was like JF was leaving an opening there for his return.

Again, isn't obvious that Matthew and Michael have chosen to be gay pirates in the Caribbean where no one will judge them? :)

DianeDobbler · October 28, 2014

Oh, well, you know, Greggson has been gone such a long time, why didn't Edith realize he was dead when the family realized it AGES ago. Look at Mary's hair! Look at Mary looking like a cross between a Vogue model and a stick of dynamite!

I see we've entered the phase of Mary Sue-ing when the show runner has to beg the question because it's no longer self-evident.

I love up thread, the poster who called Edith's story a tire fire, or similar, because the writing for Mrs. Drew makes NO SENSE. This is a woman who ought to have suspected by Edith's first visit that she was the mother; instead she's ripping up a birth certificate and "no no NO!ing". I'm not making light, but I have also read about those times, and Mrs. Drew isn't sitting at home playing patty cake with Marigold. She's up at dawn, she's working like a horse, and she knows she was in a foster situation.

I did feel for Violet. Obviously, the past couple of episodes, Downton has been emphasizing just how much time Violet and Isobel spend together. They go to things together.They're a tandem. It's beyond the pretext stage when you're playing scrabble and doing jigsaw puzzles.

The only part of the episode that made me feel okay Edith-wise was that Violet followed through. You know the others are all ... "Edith GONE? Wny that's just strange. Sure her bf died, but that was ages ago. Oh well - DO look at these housing plans!" I just hope Fellowes doesn't persuade us that Edith is better off sending her child far far away from her. Edith doesn't get to have a kid. That's for Mary (to ignore), and Tom (whom I love, but the child's with the nanny most of the time). I do love that Greggson left her his publishing business. I expect everyone to forget that before the Xmas special.

This episode. Edith's baby daddy is dead - Edith gets NO scenes. Edith runs away - she gets two scenes.

Mary gets her hair cut - TWO scenes. A f*cking HAIR CUT. Then supporting scenes about how awesome is her haircut.

Isobel accepts a marriage proposal AND WE DON'T SEE IT.

They're totally going to kill Isis cause her name is Isis. Couldn't be clearer.

Love how it's adorable for Violet to reconnect with her ex-lover of sixty years ago but if Edith hadn't already known Greggson was dead, then pfft to her.

George was in the episode but Mary wasn't shown so much as glancing at him.

Atticus is cute. I want Rose with Tom, BUT. I see no flaws in Atticus, so why aren't they writing the story. Why has it progressed in one episode from "Well, hello, I'm Atticue - and JEWISH!" to "His parents are coming to dinner and they're practically promised!"

I saw the preview about Blake saying "Kiss me now!" I think it's some sort of play acting - you know when an ex walks in the room, or you want to cover up something, it might helps if someone kisses you? Seen it in movies and tv episodes. That's how it struck me. Seems to me they're trying to create sparks that way - see, they kiss as friends, as a joke! But look at the chemistry!

Except, I think, NOT.

Starchild · October 28, 2014

I did like how Clarkson was sympathetic to the "inverted" Thomas. Ahead of his time.

Speaking of Clarkson, I've been rewatching I, Claudius, and hey! David Robb played Claudius' brother Germanicus. Very young and very pretty. Woof!

And another Claudius alum was in this episode too. Atticus' daddy was James Faulkner, who played Herod back then. Another bit of pretty.

DianeDobbler · October 28, 2014

I did like the Thomas/Baxter stuff. It's sort of clever for Downton to give Baxter an evil past. I don't agree with Mosley that Baxter was as much a victim as the one whose jewels she stole. Nope, she was in love/lust, it overrode who she'd been before, and she committed a crime because he asked. That doesn't make her a victim - why? Because he got away? She still stole. However, what we're left with is someone who is clearly, IMO, a very good person, but had her moment being a not-so-good person, so she is compassionate and nonjudgmental. Also knows Thomas Barrow's family, so that helps even more - she probably already knew he was gay before she was hired at the house. So they have this history, almost like siblings. I thought about that when they were headed home in the rain after the doctor's visit. Barrow held the umbrella over her head. She mentioned he'd shown himself a courageous person and could do anything. He told her she was daft.

I THINK a reason Thomas went for the "cure" was Jimmy left. He loved Jimmy, but was reconciled to the platonic thing. However, Jimmy was also his only friend, so he was lonely. I could see him trying to cure himself after Jimmy's departure, realizing that he had little chance of settling down or having that companionship as he was. If he cured himself, he could possibly have a life. I disagree with a review that said Thomas was never ashamed of who he was enough to try to "cure" being gay. I don't think he tried to cure it because of shame, but out of loneliness, the way society was. He was lonely and if he were straight, he could have a "normal" accepted relationship. I myself still find Jimmy's orientation somewhat ambiguous, but it almost doesn't matter. If a man wanted to live in denial, society was 100% set up for it, nothing Thomas could do. When he walked home with Baxter I thought - he has a pseudo family member/friend now, at least, and hope it lasts. She really does know him, and knows where he comes from.

ZulaMay · October 28, 2014

I like that Clarkson basically told him to embrace the gay. Well, in a more Edwardian pious sort of way, but he was pretty sympathetic. So was she. It was a nice scene with them.

Oh God, Mary's haircut. First, while I think it is very stylish and makes her look like a 1920s fashion plate....that's not necessarily a good thing. Because they look like pencil etchings. IMO it is chic but severe as Hell. Which matches her personality perfectly.

But notice the timing of the haircut thing?

Anna: Mr. Gregson is dead I am afraid. Lady Edith is taking it hard.

Mary: Well, did she think he was living in a tree? Oh, let me just observe a formality: I'm sorry, he was a nice man. What did he see in her anyway? Oh, well, he's dead now.
Anna: (speechless)

Mary: BTW am I still the Fairest Of Them All? Let's focus on what's important. I think I'll go get a haircut! Make sure everyone is in the drawing room at 4 so I can make my grand entrance. That's six hours from now....a perfectly suitable mourning period. Suck Edith and her real problems. Ta-ta!!!

Was that really a coincidence? I mean, a total coincidence? Or did the showrunners really think it was best to switch from the gloomy topic of Gregson's confirmed death to MARY'S FABULOUS HAIR.

Edited October 28, 2014 by ZulaMay

Starchild · October 28, 2014

I love how they had to have the hairdresser tell us it looked good on Mary. Otherwise we would have all come to the conclusion that it didn't, and would be wondering whether everyone who tells her it looks great is just being polite. Yay for "tell don't show" storytelling!

Camera One · October 28, 2014

I love how they had to have the hairdresser tell us it looked good on Mary.

Not only that, the hairdresser informed us most women can't pull it off, but Mary can.

There were some good moments in this episode. Carson and Mrs. Hughes going with Mrs. Patmore to see the cottage was cute. I finally feel badly for Thomas again, and I liked his scenes with Baxter. That was nasty of him to report her to the police and exposing Bates and Anna to further investigation, though. So as usual, if people had only communicated, the entire Greene business would have been a non-issue, and we wouldn't have needed to watch this drag out for a season and a half.

Did they cut the scenes where Anna explained the birth control wasn't hers, or did I miss it? The conversation completely diverted to the murder talk.

I was sad for Edith, but what she is doing is so poorly thought out. I'm glad the plot is moving, though. I wish they showed some genuine scenes of Mrs. Drewe bonding with Marigold, but since they never did, her anguish just left me feeling cold. The only scene which got to me was when she brought the teddy bear up.

I too thought it was weird they showed everything except the scene where Edith got the news.

Enough with the contrivances where Mary's suitors all show up at the same event. I don't see how Mary could be more attracted to Blake after he has revealed himself to be totally meddlesome and not above playing games like some sidekick in a romantic comedy. Why was he cozying up to Ms. Laine-Fox anyway? I didn't like him before, but now I can't even take him seriously. Is this what he does on his free time?

Edited October 28, 2014 by Camera One

Andorra · October 28, 2014

I don't know, I actually think Mary's development is that she's heading for a fall. She is so different this series. She always was selfish in a way and always had her moments, but this year she seems so restless and so self centred that it is OTT even for her IMO.

I think she's in a crisis and it will all blow soon.

Look at her. First she's sleeping with a man she doesn't really want. Then she's completely insensitive towards Anna this year, which she never was. Anna was one of the only persons that Mary treated well and with sensitivity. She doesn't care much about the estate any more either. We hear she must go to a fashion show instead of talking to Robert and Tom about the estate. This week we heard she must go to her important appointment (which was her hair) instead of talking to them about the new buildings. She ignores her child pretty much completely. She always was nasty to Edith, but this display yesterday was OTT even for her and it was so clearly nasty that I wonder what the writer intends.

Then her behaviour with Tony, Blake and Mabel. She sleeps with Tony, plays happy bedmate for him for a week although she clearly is NOT a happy bedmate. Then she breaks it off with him, but tells Blake about it first! The whole plan of getting Tony back with Mabel is childish and like Highschool scheming IMO. But to top it all Mary gets a new hairdo to show Tony what he can't have even though she doesn't even want him AND nearly kills herself to win that stupid race, because she can't bear to see Mabel win in anything.

To me she is an overgrown Rose right now in her thirst for action and entertainment, but without Rose's good nature and happy disposition.

I think there will be a major blow for her in one of the upcoming episodes and it might bring her feet back on the ground.

Ravenya003 · October 28, 2014

Yikes, I usually like Mary (sure she's a nasty piece of work sometimes, but that's why I like her) but even I thought she crossed a line this episode. That said, the entire family was pretty damn insensitive to Edith this episode, not just post-haircut, but in the scene around the dinner table when they were happily planning a picnic while Edith sat there mourning the loss of the man she loved.

That's actually the butt of Roly, who played Pharaoh in series one. I think maintaining the tight shot of dog ass in the opening is a fitting tribute to JF's skill as a showrunner, no? :)

This reminds me of Hugh Bonneville jokingly complain on the Graham Norton show that his name is placed over the dog's butt in the opening credits.

In fact, everything with Edith and Isis reminded me of a recent spoof of the show that had this exchange take place over the fire:

Robert: "Somebody save the dog!"

Cora: "But what about Edith?"

Robert: "We can't save everyone!"

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if those lines were uttered at some stage.

But what I think has been missing for some time is the self-contained stories that used to be introduced and wrapped up within a single episode. Just off the top of my head, we had for example the little tale about Violet always winning the flower show and her deciding to concede victory to the man who deserved it more, or Isabel insisting to Doctor Clarkson that he perform a particular operation on a dying man in a bid to save his life. Where have those sweet little stories gone? Everything's serialized now, and as a result everything feels painfully drawn out. The mini-stories gave one a sense of completion among the larger arcs, so that every episode had at least one beginning, middle and end.

Llywela · October 28, 2014

I love up thread, the poster who called Edith's story a tire fire, or similar, because the writing for Mrs. Drew makes NO SENSE. This is a woman who ought to have suspected by Edith's first visit that she was the mother; instead she's ripping up a birth certificate and "no no NO!ing". I'm not making light, but I have also read about those times, and Mrs. Drew isn't sitting at home playing patty cake with Marigold. She's up at dawn, she's working like a horse, and she knows she was in a foster situation.

That's the thing, though. Mrs Drew didn't know she was in a foster situation. 'Fostering' implies short-term, temporary. Mrs Drew was told that the child was an orphan who needed a home and family to raise her - that's a commitment for life. She was in it for the long haul. And I disagree with those saying that we weren't shown Mrs Drew's bond with the child. We didn't see them together much, because that's not how this show rolls, but back before Edith outstayed her welcome we were shown enough of Mrs Drew talking to and about the child to see that they had bonded, that she loved that child as much as her own. Easy for us, with the benefit of knowledge, to think the truth should have been obvious to her, but I really don't think it would be as obvious to someone in her position. Why would she assume the worst of a respectable lady from the Abbey? Her suspicion that a childless spinster had become overly attached to an orphan makes more sense in the context of the time and the informality of the arrangement that brought Marigold into the family is why it made her so insecure. Mrs Drew's story makes sense to me and I have great sympathy for her. She was used and abused dreadfully by this storyline.

ZoloftBlob · October 28, 2014

I think there will be a major blow for her in one of the upcoming episodes and it might bring her feet back on the ground.

Since the show is repeating storylines.....

How did season one end?

Mary alone and unhappy with no marriage prospects because she drove away the guy who loved her. Tony is going to marry Mabel Fox and Charles? If he's not running off to Antigua to join the Ex-Men of Crawley Women Gay Pirate Concern, he will probably dump her since he will actually need a wife willing to move to his own estate

Andorra · October 28, 2014

BTW, does someone watch the "afterbuzzTV" podcast of Downton Abbey?

This is the one for Episode 6 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLfoVgm4piY

I had to laugh when they say: "And they are so shocked when they find out Edith is gone! They're all: Why would she leave this fabulous place with all those fabulous people??" LOL

Cherpumple · October 28, 2014

I think there will be a major blow for her in one of the upcoming episodes and it might bring her feet back on the ground.

I really hope you're right! But I doubt that Fellowes sees her behaviour as being as appalling as we do, since we see so many other characters indulging her and repeatedly telling the audience how fabulous she is. From Tom saying that she's a lot nicer than people think (ha!), to everyone fawning over her hair, to her general desirability with every man she meets, all we see are people being charmed by her. I've mentally prepared myself to see her get everything her rotten little heart desires, and intend to shake my fist at the TV all the way.

I agree that Daisy's hero-worship of Bunting is annoying, but I've always disliked her, so it's become white noise to me. She's always been like a dog with a bone when something's on her mind, so at least it's consistent character writing. Not sure where the story is headed, but if it's out the door, I wouldn't mind at all.

I love the idea of Carson and Mrs. Hughes as "roommates". I picture them Bert and Ernie style, sharing a room in single beds, wearing night caps and drinking cocoa together.

Daisy · October 28, 2014

I thought it was interesting that really no one seemed to understand the depth of Edith's relationships with Gregson. Their courtship really was quite short and done mostly away from the family. I'm not sure anyone thinks they were anywhere close to marriage.

So while I think Mary behaved very badly, I am going to cut her a little slack (*ducks rotten vegetables being chucked in her direction*). From her perspective this is probably not even equivalent to Evelyn dying, and I think she would have thought not moving on from that after two years was a little excessive. They've just been through WWI, Matthew, and Sybil's deaths...seemingly much more tragic than Gregson. From their perspective, Gregson was not much more than an acquaintance and co-worker, who somewhat oddly left his company to Edith.

Well I do blame Fellows for not developing why Edith is always 'Poor, Poor, Edith." and her feelings are irrelevant. But Edith -in a sense -has always too blown things 'out of proportions' for people (I'll explain)

Season 1: Patrick dies on the Titanic. Edith is devastated. Everyone is like why, and Edith is like "well because I loved him." (this is coupled with Mary and Granny wondering what the heck is going to happen to Downton, and the marriage was only seen as a way to secure anything). Edith never once explained her feelings (that I remember, and everyone thought she was being over-dramatic over a cousin not knowing that she loved him. It's never indicated that she ever told people that before she blurted it out. (Yes it could be Mary Mary Mary/Marsha, Marsha, Marsha syndrome, but I think I would be like....yes you fell in love with him and your upset, and I respect that... but...).

Ditto with the Fake Patrick. (and the kiss with the married farmer guy).

With Gregson - no one knew about how deep it went. I can't for the life of me even remember if everyone knew about the "Crazy Wife" or that was under the rug too. to me, this - to the family, Gregson is a guy that Edith cared very deeply about. They weren't married, they weren't lovers (why would the think that?) there was no real 'attachment' and it's been like 5 years. Everyone signed off on it, and while Edith is suffering etc. I could see why they would be - how exactly is this a shock? Either he was alive - and a jerk for treating Edith like this, so why the drama

or he's dead (like they all assumed).

it doesn't excuse it, but it does explain some of it for me.

Lillith, nothing about Gregson's wife went anywhere. That's a storyline I would have liked to have seen occupy Edith in his absence - did she really exist, what really was going on with her, etc. etc. Instead, nothing but mopey Edith stalking Mr. and Mrs. Pigman.

And don't get me started on this whole business that Gregson died in the Beer Hall Putsch. He vanished in Germany in 1922, a year+ before that event. The Putsch happened in September 1923, well after Marigold's birth - and long after he'd gone MIA. I believe it was in the Christmas special (set in late spring/early summer 1923) that Edith drops that line about how new information revealed that he was "set up on by thugs... wearing brown shirts!" (sorry, I still laugh at that ham-handed reference).

Did anyone think that JF finally realized six episodes in that Marigold looked far too old for her age and had been swapped out with a younger performer?

Nothing about Gregson's storyline makes sense. It was started without a finish in mind, and JF just threw everything into a blender and out the window to dispense with things when, I suspect, the actor was not able to return.

LOL right?

I think they de-Soap Opera Rapid Aged Marigold (bummer) - but at the same time, it really makes me wonder why they just didn't re-cast Gregson? make him a flat out jerk, not martyr him.

ZulaMay · October 28, 2014

Well I do blame Fellows for not developing why Edith is always 'Poor, Poor, Edith." and her feelings are irrelevant. But Edith -in a sense -has always too blown things 'out of proportions' for people (I'll explain)

Season 1: Patrick dies on the Titanic. Edith is devastated. Everyone is like why, and Edith is like "well because I loved him." (this is coupled with Mary and Granny wondering what the heck is going to happen to Downton, and the marriage was only seen as a way to secure anything). Edith never once explained her feelings (that I remember, and everyone thought she was being over-dramatic over a cousin not knowing that she loved him. It's never indicated that she ever told people that before she blurted it out. (Yes it could be Mary Mary Mary/Marsha, Marsha, Marsha syndrome, but I think I would be like....yes you fell in love with him and your upset, and I respect that... but...).

Ditto with the Fake Patrick. (and the kiss with the married farmer guy).

With Gregson - no one knew about how deep it went. I can't for the life of me even remember if everyone knew about the "Crazy Wife" or that was under the rug too. to me, this - to the family, Gregson is a guy that Edith cared very deeply about. They weren't married, they weren't lovers (why would the think that?) there was no real 'attachment' and it's been like 5 years. Everyone signed off on it, and while Edith is suffering etc. I could see why they would be - how exactly is this a shock? Either he was alive - and a jerk for treating Edith like this, so why the drama

or he's dead (like they all assumed).

it doesn't excuse it, but it does explain some of it for me.

LOL right?

I think they de-Soap Opera Rapid Aged Marigold (bummer) - but at the same time, it really makes me wonder why they just didn't re-cast Gregson? make him a flat out jerk, not martyr him.

I don't think it was at all odd that Edith was devastated at Patrick's death. He was their cousin, they more or less grew up together. It's natural to mourn someone like that. IMO it was odder that Mary seemed so unaffected by it, frankly.

And no, Gregson has not been gone for five years. More like two and a half. He disappeared and they had been investigating it, so of course Edith still held out some hope he was alive. Like if a man went missing in action during a war but they couldn't confirm him dead? Maybe he'd been taken prisoner? When you find out two years later that he definitely dead, you are still going to be grief-stricken. The servants seemed to understand that so her family should too. Of course they are not going to share her grief but they should still be sensitive to it.

Cora was not surprised to hear that he had left the newspaper to her, so she knew it was serious between them. A man doesn't leave his business to a woman he's just dating. They had been seeing each other for over a year when he disappeared.

To me this is all about the family not paying attention to her at all or to her feelings. And that was clear from their behavior in this episode. They acknowledged it briefly and then went about their business.....that same day. Cheerfully. And they KNEW she was devastated. They were all sitting right there when she got the telegram.

Maybe she doesn't share everything with them but hey, when people never ask or seem to care at some point you stop trying.

shipperx · October 28, 2014

Honestly how could the family NOT know that Gregson was important? Edith has had exactly two men publicly court her. 1) the fiancé who dumped her at the altar 2) Gregson, who travelled to Scotland to visit the family at Christmas. If the family did not know he was important to her, they are blithering morons. (Meanwhile Mary can lose Matthew for the entirety of WWI, because she's afraid not to be a future countess, and people are still walking on eggshells around her about the subject years later, while both he and she are involved with other people. ...Then again Mary gets applause for a haircut. Such things don't tend to happen to most mere mortals. )

I'm still somewhat flabbergasted that Mary blithely insults her sister (what did he ever see in her) in the same breath as acknowledging Gregsons violent murder. That's stone cold.

Edited October 28, 2014 by shipperx

ZulaMay · October 28, 2014

I was flabbergasted too, as awful as Mary can be. But it's not entirely out of character, let's face it. This is the same woman who said her sister had no advantages at all. Even her acknowledgement of his death didn't sound very heartfelt. She really had to make an effort.

Oh, and yes, the double standard for M/M v. Edith is astounding. I get that Matthew as a person mattered more to them and that the marriage would be advantageous to the family but that's not the point. They were worried for his safety, of course. But they continued to act as though Matthew belonged to Mary, like she had branded him or something. The way Violet and Carson had their claws out for Lavinia, the way everyone had to nurse her pain and fear when he went missing, the way they all cleared the path for her to be by his side when he got to the hospital, as though he didn't have a fiancé and a mother on the way to be there.

Even Sybil the actual trained nurse went to the hospital to "be there for Mary when Matthew got there" and stepped aside for her. She had to tell her how to act and what to do. So why didn't Sybil do it? She was qualified. Mary was just his ex-fiance who happened to be engaged to someone else, as was he.

And this went on for more than two years. Edith doesn't even get a day even though she and Gregson actually WERE together when he disappeared and had not ended their relationship. I mean, Mary and Matthew had not been unofficially engaged for very long at all when the broke up.

Edited October 28, 2014 by ZulaMay

shipperx · October 28, 2014

'You ruin everything." ... To the woman who just learned the man she loved died by being violently murdered.

Seriously?

It's not as though it requires her to actively do anything (like express actual sympathy) to simply NOT say something mean.

Edited October 28, 2014 by shipperx

Avaleigh · October 28, 2014

Violet always gets her way so as happy as I am about Isobel saying yes to Lord Merton, I have a feeling that it isn't going to happen and that totally bums me out. Isobel and Violet can still be friends after Isobel gets married, it isn't as though she were moving away to some other country. Violet will be so selfish if she gets in the way of this.

Daisy really bothered me with her treatment of Molesley. Why she couldn't have been gracious about accepting the book I have no idea.

Cora does want to be supportive of Edith she just has no idea WTH is going on. Robert tells her that Edith asked to be alone so she decides to respect Edith's wishes.

Honestly how could the family NOT know that Gregson was important? Edith has had exactly two men publicly court her. 1) the fiancé who dumped her at the altar 2) Gregson, who travelled to Scotland to visit the family at Christmas. If the family did not know he was important to her, they are blithering morons.

I think it's worth noting that the family only met Gregson a handful of times and that when Gregson travelled to Scotland to visit them it seemed odd and gave him the whiff of being a social climber kind of like Richard Carlisle. Robert warmed to Gregson because of that whole gambling episode but apart from that Edith deliberately kept her feelings bottled up because she was trying to hide the fact that she was having an affair. She didn't want to get caught so she tried to downplay it while it was going on. Once he disappeared, everyone knew that she was worried about him and that she'd grown fond of him but nobody thinks that there was a sexual relationship between the two of them so I can understand why they would think that two plus years would be enough time to get over a person that you'd enjoyed semi-romantic relationship with. For the most part he was presented to the family as her editor. They were never even engaged. Edith refuses to give them any additional information so it comes across as Edith looking like a person who can't get over a relationship that happened years ago. Isobel is a character who is very sensitive and sympathetic and she seemed completely surprised that Edith would be offended at Mary debuting a new hairstyle. Tom also didn't give any indication that he felt as though Mary was being insensitive during that scene. Nobody knows what's going on so they're living life as they normally would.

Anna was the most sympathetic to Edith of the downstairs characters and even she seemed to understand why the Crawleys weren't acting as they were in mourning on behalf of a man they basically knew as Edith's boss.

I think that's one of the things about life at Downton. Things are still formal. I think that the attitude of the family would have been very different if Edith had been officially engaged with an announcement and everything. If she'd been married to Gregson even more so. Edith has to know that it isn't going to feel the same for the family as Matthew's death did. Since Edith wasn't married or engaged to Gregason I felt like we were just getting the usual display of a family who in general try to normalize when things feel like they're starting to become unpleasant. They know that Edith is upset while they're in the drawing room but all of them have been trained to make it seem like everything is fine until they're forced with confronting somebody who isn't willing to go along with the facade. When Robert stormed out of the dining room because of Sarah, the conversation moved on and everyone tried to pretend as though nothing had happened; when Mary stormed out last season, they talked about it for a few seconds and then moved on; with Tom having to be escorted from the table after he'd been drugged it was the same. Edith wasn't at the table yet but I felt like it was a similar situation in that they're just trained to move on and make the situation feel normal and don't really feel comfortable reflecting on certain subjects until later when they're alone or with maybe another person. Edith has been shown to have this trait throughout the course of the series as well only this season it seems she's finally reached her breaking point.

As far as Mary's comment about whatever Gregson saw in Edith--it was a horrible thing to say and that's the way the relationship with Edith and Mary is. They've never been close, they don't get along, each sister has a low opinion of the other, and they aren't the type of sisters who confide in one another. It reminded me of Edith's amusement when she caught Mary praying for Matthew. For the most part they just don't like each other very much but at the end of the day when each sister has all of the facts I think they're inclined to be supportive.

I honestly think that if Mary knew about Marigold and everything that Edith has gone through that she would be sympathetic and supportive. JMO.

I still like Mary. I agree that she was horrid to Edith, but her nastiness doesn't bother me, quite the contrary, it's one of the reasons she's my favourite character in this show. Sometimes it's fun to root for some not-nice characters.

I still like Mary but I thought her comments to Anna about Edith were terrible. It seemed true to her character though and I think that Edith wonders the same thing about Blake and Gillingham. I have no problem imagining Edith wondering aloud what either of those guys sees in Mary. I suspect that she and Edith are probably very alike in this way.

I enjoyed the haircut scene because it reminded me of Sybil and her harem pants I only wish it didn't have to coincide with Edith's drama. I like it when the show has fun moments like that and wish that Edith's story didn't have to suck all of the energy out of the room.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Avaleigh

Featherhat · October 28, 2014

I kind of get the attitude to Edith re Gregson. I certainly don't excuse Mary's hatefulness but I get the rest of them. Edith didn't spread it around that she was dating Gregson, because it was an affair, only Rosamund knew the extent of it until Violet. She never publicly declared they were courting for fear of the mad wife being revealed, as it might well have been if Robert had been snoopy enough to investigate further. It was obvious to the family during the S3 CS that he came to the Highlands to meet with Edith *and* with them but apart from Matthew who soon died, no one else knew the circumstances and the reception he received didn't make Edith any more likely to confide in any of them.

None of this excuses Mary's callous attitude to a sister who is clearly in deep despair whoever the man was to her, and certain parentals should wonder if anything deeper was going on there. I do think that if they had been formally engaged the family would have been kinder, but then again they brushed off the failed marriage to Strallen easily enough.

Re Edith and Marigold. If this was 50 years later, I would be a bit more sympathetic to her taking Marigold away from a loving adoptive mother, but a) since being publicly illegitimate, and notoriously so once word gets around is a real issue in the 20s and b) nothing ever is allowed to go right for Edith, she should definitely have resigned herself to being Marigold's patron. Even owning a publishing company (and how long before Fellowes has that fail) its going to be hard on both of them when word gets out. And whilst I think she wants to a lot of the time and I hope that she will surprise us, Edith really isn't the sort of person to thumb her nose at society and thrive. If Edith acknowledges her publicly she'll have less advantages than Sybbie, which will be an issue going forward.

but all of them have been trained to make it seem like everything is fine until they're forced with confronting somebody who isn't willing to go along with the façade

My family are very far from aristocratic, much less aristocrats of 100 years ago, but that kinda describes some of our big family gatherings. Hmm....I'm not entirely sure its that unusual even still...though the format has changed somewhat. And whilst some might be described as stuffy Tories, by no means all of us fit that either.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Featherhat

DianeDobbler · October 29, 2014

I love how everyone else in the Crawley family can display seethingly embarrassing behavior in front of the rest of the family, or at the dining table with many guests, or be inappropriate when a man's finacee' is gasping for breath upstairs, but let Edith lash out over a haircut's timing (my suspicion is Robert lashes out for less at least twice a week) because the man she loved died, and it's like - OMG. How embarrassing. Edith wants her FEELINGS respected. Does she not know how tedious she is?

I also find it beyond bizarre that Fellowes seems to be cuing us to be somewhat dismissive of Greggson's death due to the time that has passed and "everybody knew", while playing Violet and the prince - a romance dead and gathering dust for sixty years - for poignance. If they tell us Gregson's death means nothing because he's been gone so long, why should the Prince and Violet mean anything whatsoever? It's been over sixty years!

I think Anna's being taken aback over Mary's callous remarks is IT as far as Mary's commeuppance. When she was without Matthew at the end of S1, due to her own mistakes, we were meant to feel wretched for her. She got a dolly shot, Carson came and comforted her, the music cued us to feel terrible. This episode, Mary gets a haircut and the hairdresser has to tell us she can pull it off while other women can't. Mary decides to actually make a parade of her haircut in front of the entire family - the death of Edith's bf just RUINED the entire thing! Then Mary goes to the steeplechase or whatever it was, and her erstwhile romantic rival, by way of playfully SNARKING at her, tells her she looks like a Vogue model and a stick of dynamite - IOW, drop dead stylish, au mode (Vogue) and incredibly sexy (stick of dynamite). That's what passes for insulting Mary on this show - you looked gorgeous and incredibly sexy on PURPOSE!

I definitely expect that the family will treat Edith's bolt as just another inexplicable bid for attention (does she not KNOW she isn't interesting??) rather than BE actually concerned for her.

I just don't care about Mary anymore. This series has done it. I like Michelle Dockery out of character, and was interested in Mary/Matthew, but IMO her performance has been impacted by the complete lack of commitment in her storyline. She's playing her role with no stakes whatsoever, no internal energy, no point of view whatseover. She's just completely blah, Fellowes tells instead of shows anyway, but now Mary's story is almost all tell, and he sort of puts her through her paces from time to time to explain why we should like her anyway (her views on Tom, Tom telling her she's nicer than people think, etc.) without making her interesting or giving us (me) a reason to care.

I like the old pros downstairs - I enjoyed Mrs. Patmore discussing her cottage. I enjoyed Violet and Isobel. I, also, suspect the Merton merger won't happen because a) no budget for a Merton estate and b) Violet and Isobel are meant to be the real pairing.

Edited October 29, 2014 by DianeDobbler

Avaleigh · October 29, 2014

I, also, suspect the Merton merger won't happen because a) no budget for a Merton estate and b) Violet and Isobel are meant to be the real pairing.

I understand not having the budget to film over at another estate on a regular basis but if they only have one season left in the show, surely they could afford to do two or three scenes at another house and then keep the rest of the interactions to the usual sets? I don't see why Isobel still wouldn't be able to be around and visit when she'd still be living in the same county.

I agree with you that something is probably going to go wrong but I don't really understand why that has to be. Too frustrating and I feel like it's going to largely be about not wanting Violet to have her companion around every day. I still haven't forgotten how put upon Violet acted when Isobel was taking care of her while she was sick with Dr Clarkson telling Violet that she'll be rewarded in Heaven for her generosity in not telling Isobel that Isobel was getting on Violet's nerves.

I love Violet and still think she gets the best lines but for the past couple of seasons I've bristled a bit at the way she treats Isobel and takes her for granted.

OptimisticCynic · October 29, 2014

Michelle Dockery is a beautiful woman, but with that haircut (and especially the hat) she looks like Johnny Depp as Willy Wonka.

kpw801 · October 29, 2014

I just don't care about Mary anymore. This series has done it. I like Michelle Dockery out of character, and was interested in Mary/Matthew, but IMO her performance has been impacted by the complete lack of commitment in her storyline. She's playing her role with no stakes whatsoever, no internal energy, no point of view whatseover. She's just completely blah, Fellowes tells instead of shows anyway, but now Mary's story is almost all tell, and he sort of puts her through her paces from time to time to explain why we should like her anyway (her views on Tom, Tom telling her she's nicer than people think, etc.) without making her interesting or giving us (me) a reason to care.

I thoroughly agree! I can't stand Mary anymore. She is as ugly and mean to Edith upstairs as Thomas was to William downstairs. Remember the way he out of pure spite invited Daisy to the fair when he knew William was planning to do it. Also, Mary is not very nice to anyone else. She constantly is telling her mother "that's because you're American..." Honestly she is picking up where O'Brien left off. The hair dresser said, "She's one of the few women who can pull it off... " Whatever! The hairdo looks totally bizarre. All she needs is pointed ears and a space suit and she could be an extra on Star Trek! Seriously, she could pass for Spock's daughter with that severe hairdo and the strange little doggie tail on the nape of her neck.

Edith - when she was in love and in London could give Mary a run for her money. Actually, she can be extremely glamorous when she wants to be. I hope that she comes into her own now that she is a proper business woman. One thing about Edith - she is living proof of her mother's prophecy that suffering only makes you stronger. She has gotten used to never ever being validated by her family and has learned to find value in herself on her own. She always had a talent for writing - remember the Farmer she kissed told her she should be a writer when they were talking about farming - she said something that impressed him.

I don't know how Julian Fellowes will write this character but seriously if he can let Ethel find redemption he ought to be able to write a happy ending for Edith. She will - with the help of her other grandmother maybe find a way for her daughter to find her place in the world. And so what if it isn't with the aristocracy, they seem so phoney anyway. The way the Crawley family have treated Edith, I am sure she is thinking to herself so what if they don't accept my child. I was legitimately to the manor born and what did it ever get me but heartbreak.

Oh and then I remember how ticked off Mary got at Mrs. Bunting for being rude to Lord Grantham at the dinner table when he stormed out. She was so annoyed that Sarah Bunting kept twisting the knife and pushing her point. My my my she needs to take a look in the mirror because I want to scream at her. For God's sake Mary, give it a rest. You want to be considered such a high and mighty lady, your behavior is NOT ladylike - even a servant (except for Thomas or O'Brien) wouldn't act as ugly as you do! Also, I am reminded of the episode where Lady Sybil took Gwen to an interview on the wagonette and the horse went lame and they walked instead of having the horse pull them. When the family found out why Lady Sybil was so late getting back (they didn't know about Gwen), Mary said in Edith's hearing, "I don't care how lame the horse was, I wouldn't have walked." Edith replied, "No you wouldn't" and Mary knew Edith was indicting her for her obvious-to-everyone-but-her parents selfishness. You know even the Bible says, "A righteous man careth for the life of his beast, but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel". Let's put Mary in the cruel category. She is only nice when she can benefit from it.

Edited October 29, 2014 by kpw801

ZulaMay · October 29, 2014

I kind of get the attitude to Edith re Gregson. I certainly don't excuse Mary's hatefulness but I get the rest of them. Edith didn't spread it around that she was dating Gregson, because it was an affair, only Rosamund knew the extent of it until Violet. She never publicly declared they were courting for fear of the mad wife being revealed, as it might well have been if Robert had been snoopy enough to investigate further. It was obvious to the family during the S3 CS that he came to the Highlands to meet with Edith *and* with them but apart from Matthew who soon died, no one else knew the circumstances and the reception he received didn't make Edith any more likely to confide in any of them.

None of this excuses Mary's callous attitude to a sister who is clearly in deep despair whoever the man was to her, and certain parentals should wonder if anything deeper was going on there. I do think that if they had been formally engaged the family would have been kinder, but then again they brushed off the failed marriage to Strallen easily enough.

Re Edith and Marigold. If this was 50 years later, I would be a bit more sympathetic to her taking Marigold away from a loving adoptive mother, but a) since being publicly illegitimate, and notoriously so once word gets around is a real issue in the 20s and b) nothing ever is allowed to go right for Edith, she should definitely have resigned herself to being Marigold's patron. Even owning a publishing company (and how long before Fellowes has that fail) its going to be hard on both of them when word gets out. And whilst I think she wants to a lot of the time and I hope that she will surprise us, Edith really isn't the sort of person to thumb her nose at society and thrive. If Edith acknowledges her publicly she'll have less advantages than Sybbie, which will be an issue going forward.

My family are very far from aristocratic, much less aristocrats of 100 years ago, but that kinda describes some of our big family gatherings. Hmm....I'm not entirely sure its that unusual even still...though the format has changed somewhat. And whilst some might be described as stuffy Tories, by no means all of us fit that either.

Actually Mary and Matthew were never officially engaged either. It had "seemed settled" between them at Sybil's Ball which had been a month or two earlier. But they hadn't made it formal or announced it. So basically they "got together" in March or April, made it semi-official in June, and broke up in August. The trajectory of their relationship lasted about as long as that of Edith and Michael. The difference? Well, they knew Matthew and very much wanted the match to keep Downton in the family (for Mary). But also they just CARED more about her, her prospects, her happiness.

They could have tried to know more about Michael if they wanted, but they didn't. Edith had to chase Robert around the house to get him to talk to Michael, and only when he saved his stupid ass in poker did Robert act friendly toward him. No one expects the house to go into mourning for the guy, but a day of sensitivity to HER loss is the minimum that should be required and decent. And Mary didn't even give her five seconds.

So you think that because nothing ever goes right for Edith, she should resign herself to just giving Marigold money? In other words, just accept that God doesn't want her to be happy or something? Why on earth should she roll over and play dead like that? Yes, the kid has a loving adoptive mother but she also has a loving biological mother. A mother who carried her, birthed her, nursed her and has been paying for her upkeep in the loving foster family in which she chose to place her.

I see her taking fate into her own hands and making a decision. The choice is not between her happiness and Marigold's. It's between her as a mother and Margie as a mother. There was no perfect solution but she chose herself (again, the child's mother) because no one else would do so for her. No one ever has. I think she was standing up for herself and she has every right to do that, certainly considering she has the means to take care of her. I feel badly for Margie and no, it's not fair to her but neither would it be fair to Edith if the Drewes kept her from her child forever. She finally told the truth (as she should have done before, of course) and now she's willing to deal with the fallout. She took her kid and struck out on her own. I wish she had just done it earlier, but given the pressure she was under I get why she didn't.

I certainly don't think that just because things always have gone wrong for her she should resign herself to the fact that they always will. Violet even said that to be defeatist is "Very Middle Class." And frankly Violet's whole attitude toward the situation has been very Middle Class. Pious and cautious to a fault. The aristocracy generally took more risks because they could. Edith doesn't have the backing Mary does, but well, now she has a newspaper business and a little more chutzpah. I think she decided she has nothing to lose because at THAT house, she has nothing and no one who is really on her side.

kp801, funny that you mention Mary and Thomas because i noticed that this episode they completely mirrored each other. Their statements on Gregson's death were dismissive "come on, we all know he's been dead for years." The servants called Thomas out on his behavior, but no one called Mary out on hers. Except Anna but she just did so silently, with a look of disapproval. Everyone calls Thomas outright evil, at least when he acts like that. Certainly nasty. Well, in this episode they literally behaved the same way about it. He was the Downstairs bastard and she was the Upstairs Bitch.

Edited October 29, 2014 by ZulaMay

kpw801 · October 29, 2014

kp801, funny that you mention Mary and Thomas because i noticed that this episode they completely mirrored each other. Their statements on Gregson's death were dismissive "come on, we all know he's been dead for years." The servants called Thomas out on his behavior, but no one called Mary out on hers. Except Anna but she just did so silently, with a look of disapproval. Everyone calls Thomas outright evil, at least when he acts like that. Certainly nasty. Well, in this episode they literally behaved the same way about it. He was the Downstairs bastard and she was the Upstairs Bitch.

True, so true and in addition, Edith was torn while she was pregnant because she realized she would probably inherit from

Michael and she wanted to make sure that Marigold had what was coming to her - what her father would have given to her had he lived. I believe Edith (if Fellowes will let her) will make a go of the newspaper business because she will want her daughter to inherit something from her father. If she is successful, Marigold will be a newspaper heiress and we all know stuffy toffs accept anything if the potential bride is an heiress. That is why Belle's father bequeathed his illegitimate mixed race daughter a tidy sum. She ended up with more marriage proposals than her more acceptable legitimate but poor cousin.

Featherhat · October 29, 2014

Well I never said a dickie bird about Mary and Matthew or for that matter about Tom and Sybil's marriage, which her parents regard as official but they never gave their blessing for or even Mary and Patrick where Robert seemed disappointed that Mary chose not to go into the full mourning of a fiancée, even if it was a private understanding. I do think they were very callous regarding Edith's grief, but I don't think they had the full picture either. There's no doubt that they tiptoed around Mary's self inflicted issues in S2 re Matthew but everything regarding them *had* been played out in front of all of Downton and heavily involved the future of the estate, whilst they met Gregson a couple of times in the Highlands, noticed he had a crush on Edith/was working to subvert the daughter of an Earl according to Robert, disappeared and then was confirmed dead without Edith telling them the truth.

I'm not saying they'd be sympathetic if they knew everything, and as I said I think Mary's remarks were particularly awful for anyone who thinks her sister had official confirmation of a bosses death, but they don't know the extent of the situation. They might not be sympathetic to the situation if they knew everything but I think the reaction would have been different, even if it was worse.

I don't think Edith should resign herself to things always going badly, my comment was about the Doylist interpretation that things never will go well for her because Fellowes thinks she's an inherent loser. Not fair, but that's what he's explicitly said. I don't see it getting better, we have several "police investigate Green death" in exhaustive detail but we can't even see the scene where Edith finally has the official version of Gregson dying and all that means for her and her hopes for Marigold.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Featherhat

vesperholly · October 29, 2014

In real life, Marigold's ability to attach would be a very serious concern.

Certainly now, but probably not back in 1924. Child psychology was not much of a field then. John Bowlby was one of the people at the forefront of developmental psychology, especially in children, and in 1924 he was all of 17. Most of his work was accomplished during and after WWII.

Oh, and Mary's a bitch. Edith is no Sybil, but she doesn't seem to be the instigator in any of these situations - more reactive to Mary's antagonism.

Being ignored is such a cruel treatment. It's one thing to play second fiddle to your attractive, charming older sister. It's another thing entirely to have your entire family pretend you barely exist. Edith is upset? Let's ignore her until she stops being upset and gets with the program. God forbid anyone ask her WHY she's so upset. Why she fled to Europe for (suspiciously convenient) 10 months. Why she has a sudden interest in the Drewe's new orphan. Maybe once in a while, put on a sympathetic face and ask "Are you alright, darling?" But all she gets is a few superficial bursts of interest. That's why Tom's conversation with her, "Please talk to me, tell me" was really heart-rending. Someone who really cares.

This show is so mind-numbing and poorly edited/written. I would really have preferred to see Edith finding out the news about Gregson rather then watching ten minutes of other people whispering about the fact that she is just about to/just did find out the news.

downton-abbey-lady-violet-GIF-season-2-e

Edited October 29, 2014 by vesperholly

ElectricBoogaloo · October 29, 2014

Mary: Well, of course it's terrible but what did [Edith] think he was doing? Living in a tree?
Anna: You mustn't make jokes, milady.

Mary: Only in here. I'll be as solemn as a church when I go down. No, I am sorry, truly. He was a nice man, though what he saw in Edith.

Anna: [side eye]

This is why I just can't with Mary. She can't understand what any man would see in Edith because she has nothing but contempt for her sister. She can't even express sympathy for a dead man without slagging off Edith in the same breath. I suppose she was true to her word though. She didn't make any jokes when she went down and she was certainly solemn when she told Edith that she spoils everything.

Mary: Anna, do you think I'm looking rather frumpy?
Anna: Certainly not, milady.

Mary: I'm tempted to remind them of what they're missing.

Anna: You'd never be that heartless.

Mary: [smug look]

Despite Anna pointing out what a bitch move it would be to deliberately try to remind Blake and Gillingham how irresistible she is, Mary decided yes, that's EXACTLY what I should do! While I certainly understand that the world doesn't stop when one person is in mourning, Mary's reaction to his death was "Gotta look hot so the two guys I already rejected will pop boners over me again!" as opposed to "Gee, I wonder if my sister could use some company and a shoulder to cry on."

Again, isn't obvious that Matthew and Michael have chosen to be gay pirates in the Caribbean where no one will judge them? :)

You know, I would also buy that they realized what a bunch of dicks the Crawley family is and they decided they would fake their deaths to escape them.

I love the idea of Carson and Mrs. Hughes as "roommates". I picture them Bert and Ernie style, sharing a room in single beds, wearing night caps and drinking cocoa together.
Aw. With a rubber duckie and a bottle cap collection. Love it.

Yes! This is going to be my head canon when the show ends.

Edited October 29, 2014 by ElectricBoogaloo

darkestboy · October 29, 2014

Finally Edith got her baby back. Took the show long enough.

Also Thomas's storyline came to an abrupt ending too, though I liked Baxter being there for him.

At least they seem to be winding down the Mary/Gillingham/Mabel/Blake stuff as well.

Rose's new beau is nice, that's all I can really say.

More concerned about poor Isis than who killed Green at this point but at least we know that Bates didn't actually do it though.

As always more Violet/Isobel scenes please.

Don't care for Denker and Spratt's feud to be honest. Both are annoying. 7/10

abbyzenn · October 29, 2014

We still don't know who Edith called at the end of last week's episode do we?

Wasn't this the first time it was said that Gregson owned a publishing business? Prior to this he was said to be the editor of The Sketch (not sure if a magazine or a daily newspaper). But I do remember that Cora started reading it because of Edith's articles.

Because I had some free time and nothing else to watch, I fast forwarded thru some of last year's shows to see some scenes of Edith. At least twice Cora had conversations with her and asked her what was wrong and to talk to her. Cora also asked her why Gregson was in Germany and Edith said "visiting King Ludwig's castles". There was also another scene where Robert asked her what was wrong and asked if he wanted his help in finding out about Gregson's whereabouts.. So they did have some concern but Edith rebuffed their efforts.

I don't think Edith ever told her parents that she wanted to marry Gregson

Edith decision to take Marigold is another snap decision. Since they're in a hotel she hasn't set up a place to actually live. She hasn't thought of anything beyond taking her. It appeared Marigold left with the clothes on her back and nothing else. Is Edith even prepared to change diapers? we didn't see anything in that hotel room - luggage, etc.

kpw801 · October 29, 2014

We still don't know who Edith called at the end of last week's episode do we?

Wasn't this the first time it was said that Gregson owned a publishing business? Prior to this he was said to be the editor of The Sketch (not sure if a magazine or a daily newspaper). But I do remember that Cora started reading it because of Edith's articles.

Here is another example of lack of continuity. Cora was reading the Sketch in the very first episode of the show. I remember that William was cross with the paper delivery boy because he was late. When he started ironing the papers, Carson peeped in and told him to make sure to do the Sketch for her ladyship. It was already known that she read the Sketch on a regular basis and now Fellowes has forgotten that and said that Cora just started to read it because of Edith. Nice way to try to show some solidarity with her daughter but he is not paying attention to his own writing.

Edith decision to take Marigold is another snap decision. Since they're in a hotel she hasn't set up a place to actually live. She hasn't thought of anything beyond taking her. It appeared Marigold left with the clothes on her back and nothing else. Is Edith even prepared to change diapers? we didn't see anything in that hotel room - luggage, etc.

Given that we know Edith is capable of some intellectual thinking I am sure the first thing she will do is find a place to live and hire someone to help with her child. After all, she was paying the Drews wasn't she? She can afford a nursemaid to help her. She probably intended to have all of Marigold's things but remember, Mrs. Drew wouldn't gather them up to give her. She had to leave in a hurry so no one would follow her and find out about the baby just yet. I see in the photos of the next episode Edith will be at the table in Downton but we don't know if she moved back or not. I think she will have hired someone to help her by then. I do not see her giving up the last vestige of her slain lover no matter what everyone else says. We have been given insight into her changing mindset ever since the last Christmas special. She has on several occasions said she was tired of worrying about what people think.

Tom wouldn't leave Sybbie there because he didn't want to lose the last link with the love of his life. Edith feels the same way about her child. I don't think she would have snatched the child away if the Drews hadn't threatened her with moving away and taking her child forever unless stayed away. In her frame of mind - especially now, that was too much to ask.

Avaleigh · October 29, 2014

Well I never said a dickie bird about Mary and Matthew or for that matter about Tom and Sybil's marriage, which her parents regard as official but they never gave their blessing for or even Mary and Patrick where Robert seemed disappointed that Mary chose not to go into the full mourning of a fiancée, even if it was a private understanding. I do think they were very callous regarding Edith's grief, but I don't think they had the full picture either. There's no doubt that they tiptoed around Mary's self inflicted issues in S2 re Matthew but everything regarding them *had* been played out in front of all of Downton and heavily involved the future of the estate, whilst they met Gregson a couple of times in the Highlands, noticed he had a crush on Edith/was working to subvert the daughter of an Earl according to Robert, disappeared and then was confirmed dead without Edith telling them the truth.
I'm not saying they'd be sympathetic if they knew everything, and as I said I think Mary's remarks were particularly awful for anyone who thinks her sister had official confirmation of a bosses death, but they don't know the extent of the situation. They might not be sympathetic to the situation if they knew everything but I think the reaction would have been different, even if it was worse.

I completely agree that the family would have had a different reaction if they'd known all of the facts. At the end of the day Edith is the one who has made the decision to keep the family in the dark. Isobel, Rose, Tom, and Cora--all typically nice people where Edith is concerned and not one of them saw the insensitivity in Mary showing off her haircut because not one of them has any idea that Edith didn't just simply lose a boss that she'd grown close and hasn't seen in years at this point. Without knowing any additional information it comes across as Edith expecting her family to behave as though she is in mourning and they have no reason to think that they should behave this way because Edith hasn't told them anything.

Once again this season I feel like Edith helped to bring her misery on herself by not being straightforward with people. She didn't want to be honest with Mrs Drewe (or Mr Drewe initially) and there were a bunch of complications that arose from that. Edith would have appreciated it very much if the family didn't so quickly want to continue to move on with their lives and plan social functions. She wants them to stop being so open about enjoying themselves and to me, if she wants something like this to happen then she needs to be honest with them. I'd totally be on the other side of this if Edith had told her family what was going on only to still have a scene like the one that took place in the drawing room where most everyone was ooohing and aaahing over Mary's hairstyle. Robert guesses aloud that Edith and Gregson "probably loved each other" but again, nobody really knows the truth outside of Violet and Rosamund so it made sense to me why Violet would be the only one to go over to the Drewes to find out what happened there.

To me Edith has to take some responsibility for the way all of this has turned out. She used the Drewes when it was convenient for her and then disrupted their lives when she felt that she wasn't getting what she wanted while never telling Mrs Drewe the truth until it suited her purpose of taking Marigold away from the second family who had changed their lives around in order to care for her.

I'm glad Edith has her child back and ultimately think it's the best thing all things considered, but the whole part of her using not one but two families like that just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Edith comes across as pretty self centered at times (like most of the Crawleys tbt) and I feel like there's a large part of her that is focused more on her own pain than what is necessarily best for Marigold. The champagne and ice cream scene was so bittersweet. Illegitimacy was definitely not something to inflict lightly upon a child. I think it's probably better for Marigold to be sent off to the talked about posh boarding school in France when the time is right. Edith would still be able to have a relationship with her and they could probably arrange for her to spend the holidays with the family.

Also, why can't Marigold officially be Rosamund's ward with Edith paying for the support? They could tie the girl to a relative of Marmaduke's or something? At least he isn't around to object.

Re: Mary and Matthew--the sympathy from the family was completely different in that situation because they knew what was going on. They had info about it from multiple people plus there was the added fact of the marriage being in the family's best interests so of course they were keeping an eye about what was going on.

Edith can't expect the family to treat the situation the same as when Matthew died because it wasn't the same for them.

Edith won't be open with Cora and when Cora asks others about Edith she's told that things are fine or that Edith was would prefer to be alone. I feel like it's apparent that Cora cares about what Edith's going through it's just that Edith consistently shuts her out and it was never more obvious than in the scene where Edith is being truthful with Violet and Rosamund and here comes Cora the American Outsider and she's just completely excluded from being apart of the women in the family who are working together to help and support Edith.

Again, at the end of the day Edith needs to take responsibility for her choices and not telling her family the truth about her situation but then at the same time wanting them to behave as though they know what's going on strikes me as Edith being unfair on her family.

ETA:*hate* autocorrect

Edited October 29, 2014 by Avaleigh

bluebonnet · October 29, 2014

Certainly now, but probably not back in 1924. Child psychology was not much of a field then. John Bowlby was one of the people at the forefront of developmental psychology, especially in children, and in 1924 he was all of 17. Most of his work was accomplished during and after WWII.

The intended audience isn't a 1924 audience, but a 2014 one. The writers are also 2014 writers rather than 1924 writers. A 1924 writer probably wouldn't think about how disrupted homes affects a child, while a 2014 writer would (if they cared about realism). A 1924 audience might not realize how traumatic it is to abruptly remove infants and toddlers from their caretakers, but a 2014 audience should know this.

A viewer can be sympathetic to the times while also utilizing the knowledge they have to critique things. As someone living in 2014, I know that Marigold's situation is a very serious problem. Of course I'm going to feel something about that regardless if the character Edith has never read the same books I've read on the topic.

shipperx · October 29, 2014

I continue to think theorizing about how seriously Cora, Robert, and Mary took the relationship between Michael and Edith to be beside the point. They don't need to have believed it to be serious to be compassionate with Edith. Sympathy is about taking a nanosecond to care. They only need sympathize with Edith's feelings (even if less than rational in their eyes) for a moment.

And I honestly do not take everyone overlooking Marys incredibly dismissive behavior as a sign that Marys behavior is reasonably okay. I take it as a sign of the kind of privilege given to Mary. People very rarely call her out. If Matthew would have been alive I can't help but think he'd have said something to her. God knows few others will. Sure as hell not Cora or Robert who never do (and standing by as witness but never criticizing they end up tacitly reinforcing and condoning it. Cora and Robert love Edith but OMG are they oblivious.) So good grief criticizing Edith for not being open with her family. THIS is evidence of how they react to her visible distress. No wonder she clams up as much as possible! Her sister stands there mocking her grief and calling her worthless and no one says anything. Why would she reveal her secrets to them in the face of this sort of result?

Anyway, they all know that for the last decade 'everyone' has believed that Edith's romantic prospects are virtually nil. They know that only two men have ever openly expressed interest in her (come on! He travelled to Scotland to see her. She brought him to see her parents at Christmas(!) --even inthe 21st century that's a sign. Even in Mary's abysmal insult she's saying that Michael 'saw something' in her. They may not think it would ever amount to anything. Ever. But it doesn't take a particularly reflective person to grasp that to someone 'with no prospects', one guy just 'seeing' something in her would be meaningful to her.

She's had exactly two men openly court her --one of whom humiliated her by dumping her at the altar. The other of whom disappeared. Now she knows he was brutally murdered. It doesn't matter if the family thought it was a serious relationship or whether they thought it would lead to marriage or whether they thought Edith was out of her flipping gourd and desperate enough to imagine more connection than there was. She's a 30 year old 'spinster' who in her entire life she has been courted twice (however lightly and unmeaningful they might think it) and he was just confirmed violently murdered. They could damn well understand that much.

Seriously, it's not like anyone actually expects Mary to be sympathetic. But how much effort does it take to NOT say awful things to and about her sister --out loud -- for one day?

I do hope Gregson leaving Edith money allows her independence. Imagine the horror of knowing that upon Roberts death she would be dependent upon Mary for her to remain at Downton. What an awful prospect to know she'd be left to Mary's dubious mercys.

And it's not for nothing that until now Edith's options were limited. From the moment she discovered she was pregnant she's been told that she HAS to give up the baby. Her grandmother and aunt insist, and have actively directed this course repeatedly even now when needing to go against Edith's wishes. Society insists she cannot keep her child. She is a constant disappointment to her parents and with this revelation only more so. Absolutely everything has conspired to force her to give up her child... And it's all about society and family... Neither of which is particularly concerned about her.

It isn't easy to go against everything. I'm not surprised it takes her so long to work up to it. But I can see how knowing that Marigold is the murdered Michael's only child, the man she loved and the only man to have convincingly romantically loved her only offspring. The man who left her an independent living, a legacy, where she is not tied to her family's trust and in the face of her family's general lack of interest and in the face of Marys open contempt finally seizes the opportunity to do what her heart has wanted all along.

Yes, its far from perfect. There are downsides galore. There are so many other ways it should have gone. But it's hard to screw up courage and go it alone when everything --including the entire culture--is stacked against you saying 'no don't '. (And it always seems so much easier to simply blame the woman than the strictures society imposes that creates such quandaries. )

It doesn't mean she's undeserving of being with her own child (which is what Rosamund, Violet, and in their own way the Drewes (recently) were actively denying her. ).

It's very imperfect but that's the result when stuck between a rock and a hard place. In the 21st century Edith never would have given up her child in the first place. In post WWI a 30 year old spinster had far more working against her and her love child.

Edited October 29, 2014 by shipperx

DianeDobbler · October 29, 2014

Mary: Anna, do you think I'm looking rather frumpy?

Anna: Certainly not, milady.

Mary: I'm tempted to remind them of what they're missing.

Anna: You'd never be that heartless.

Mary: [smug look]

THIS was just - give me a break Fellowes. This is more pretending that Mary is the living end in beauty and sex appeal. How HEARTLESS it would be for her to amp up the power of her beauty and sex appeal when it's already so overwhelming.

I think Edith has made a million attempts to open up to her family, only to have them ignore her. It's not on her at this point for failing to put every detail of her life open to inspection. It's on them, as loving family members, to indicate that they're interested, that they love her, that they care. Her aunt and grandmother managed - they went to her. She didn't seek them out. Her aunt and her grandmother are perhaps too conventional and lack the balls (as said, aristocrats could take more risks because they could, because their money and status intimidated and influenced, and they had no problems with hypocrisy, i.e., do as we say, not as WE do) - but her aunt - who doesn't even live at Downton, took an interest, learned what was going on, put her own funds and time on the line to help out. Last we saw of Violet in Ep. 6 she cared enough about Edith to follow up with the Drews about what had happened. After years of the way they've treated Edith, it's on her family, not on Edith, to demonstrate that they give a damn. Catch a clue, Crowleys. But they don't WANT to. They're not interested. Because she doesn't expose herself to them doesn't excuse them for their behavior after Gregson died. Hell, Fellowes even had ATTICUS express the wish that gosh, he certainly hoped the point-to-point fun carried on. Took him about two seconds to catch on Edith doesn't matter and if any time she makes a bid to be a person worth considering in her own right, we shall all do our utmost to let her know there is nothing more tedious and she doesn't rate. Even more dreary when she points this out herself.

What her family does know is she's been spending a lot of time with the Drew's child, that Gregson is confirmed dead, that he loved Edith enough to leave her his publishing business, that he's been Edith's only serious suitor since Stallen. Instead of jumping to conclusions that reduce Edith (pathetic spinster attaching herself to farmer's child), how about paying attention to her patterns of behavior, including her months away? They don't care enough. If she opened up more, she'd only have more of the matters of her heart reduced by her family. They've shown her private matters aren't safe with them. It's up to them to extend themselves, not her to reach out more.

Everybody said Maggie Smith is a treasure - when she visited the Drew's farm and realized Edith and Marigold were gone, she gave it so much WEIGHT and heart.

I believe Downton has drawn parallels between Violet and Mary, that Mary's a throwback to Violet. Violet has had insufferable moments. Violet has refused to admit certain things bother her. Her friendship with Isobel has been almost unacknowledged/unadmitted due to Violet's sense of superiority, although it's been very clear the past four or so episodes that Violet is much more open about the friendship (I loved Smith's line delivery on "You'll come?" to Isobel vis a vis something upcoming - the sense that the two of them know they're established, don't need excuses, and have reached a "taken for granted" comfort level). I like Dockery quite a bit in her interviews, but she simply lacks the Smith's ability to infuse this sort of character with humanity absent strong writing - something at stake, powerful subtext, etc. Violet is complex. She has a heart but there have been times you know she's going to ignore her heart in favor of convention, and it can piss you off. Her whininess at times about her own needs vis a vis the less fortunate can certainly grate - going back to her not wanting to relinquish her flower trophies to Mr. Mosley (what about Meeeeeeee), and just recently her complaint that her maid was leaving because the maid's mother was infirm but what about Violet - SHE's infirm.

We can't expect many actresses to be Maggie Smith (OR Penelope Milton) - but when Smith says lines like that, they come from a genuine place in Violet. Violet really is thinking "what about me." Or she's saying it to express some other genuine emotion she can't say any other way. Whereas Mary comes out as a stone cold narcissistic bitch who doesn't HAVE other genuine emotions or care about anything. Even when she's "nice" or shows a side of her character that's admirable (her attitude towards Tom, and, last season, how she handled Jack and Rose). I'm not FEELING it. I think Dockery needs an action to play, not just a state of being to embody.

It's funny, I wonder if the Edith stuff bugs Dockery. There's a bunch of youtube stuff, and one is when the actors were asked about what was most characteristic of their characters. I believe Dockery said the awful things Mary says to her sister. Her tone was quite rueful, not enjoying it much.

Cherpumple · October 29, 2014

I don't think things would've been much better for Edith had she confided in her family throughout the ordeal with Gregson. She was having an illicit affair with a married man which resulted in pregnancy, so if her family had known all the details, rather than complaining about how they are neglecting her I think we would be complaining about them being judgmental, calling her reckless, giving her disapproving head shakes, and dishing out some generous portions of "I told you so" when things went pear-shaped. There may have been some compassion (or at least pity) along the way, and a better plan for Marigold's upbringing (or possibly worse) but I doubt her parents would've been supportive of the relationship or would've nurtured her through the mourning period.

The intended audience isn't a 1924 audience, but a 2014 one. The writers are also 2014 writers rather than 1924 writers. A 1924 writer probably wouldn't think about how disrupted homes affects a child, while a 2014 writer would (if they cared about realism). A 1924 audience might not realize how traumatic it is to abruptly remove infants and toddlers from their caretakers, but a 2014 audience should know this.

Forgive me if I'm missing something, but I don't really understand this point as it relates to the portrayal of the storyline on the show. Are you saying that 2014 psychological knowledge should somehow be inserted into the 1924 storyline? How would that work? Considering how little any of the Downton children actually feature on this show, I don't know how exactly they would portray Marigold's confusion, anxiety, and trauma caused by switching caretakers. In fact, if she gets to stay with Edith and no longer serves as a plot device, I bet we'll barely see her again, which is fine with me. I'm not undermining your point about the severity of the attachment issues involved in real life, anymore than I downplay the severity of other issued raised, such as the consequences of rape or societal attitudes towards homosexuality, but I certainly don't watch Downton for accurate portrayals of how these would play out, either in 1924 or 2014. Basically, I'm not sure if your comment was a criticism of how the storyline is portrayed or of viewers' reactions to it.

bluebonnet · October 29, 2014

Forgive me if I'm missing something, but I don't really understand this point as it relates to the portrayal of the storyline on the show. Are you saying that 2014 psychological knowledge should somehow be inserted into the 1924 storyline? How would that work? Considering how little any of the Downton children actually feature on this show, I don't know how exactly they would portray Marigold's confusion, anxiety, and trauma caused by switching caretakers. In fact, if she gets to stay with Edith and no longer serves as a plot device, I bet we'll barely see her again, which is fine with me. I'm not undermining your point about the severity of the attachment issues involved in real life, anymore than I downplay the severity of other issued raised, such as the consequences of rape or societal attitudes towards homosexuality, but I certainly don't watch Downton for accurate portrayals of how these would play out, either in 1924 or 2014. Basically, I'm not sure if your comment was a criticism of how the storyline is portrayed or of viewers' reactions to it.

It's a little of both, I suppose. There is a lot of room for criticism in how the storyline is portrayed. I've been fairly vocal about it in this thread and others. I just think it's poor writing across the board, not specifically this arc. Any show or film that sets itself in 1924 could accurately portray how a kid would act in this situation without allowing the characters to access knowledge the 2014 viewer has. It would be pretty easy to show a toddler displaying symptoms of trauma. General anxiety can manifest in numerous behaviors. They needn't make a bit deal out of it or even focus much on it. Just that it's there is enough. I suppose they have done this in a way with Mrs. Drewe describing Marigold as unsettled so my criticism on this may not be all that valid. We don't get to see how Marigold behaves outside of super fun play time.

But it's really more a criticism of viewers reactions. We are a 2014 audience. It doesn't really make sense that our morals, knowledge and feelings are invalid because a piece of entertainment is portraying a different time.

ZulaMay · October 29, 2014

I completely agree that the family would have had a different reaction if they'd known all of the facts. At the end of the day Edith is the one who has made the decision to keep the family in the dark. Isobel, Rose, Tom, and Cora--all typically nice people where Edith is concerned and not one of them saw the insensitivity in Mary showing off her haircut because not one of them has any idea that Edith didn't just simply lose a boss that she'd grown close and hasn't seen in years at this point. Without knowing any additional information it comes across as Edith expecting her family to behave as though she is in mourning and they have no reason to think that they should behave this way because Edith hasn't told them anything.

Once again this season I feel like Edith helped to bring her misery on herself by not being straightforward with people. She didn't want to be honest with Mrs Drewe (or Mr Drewe initially) and there were a bunch of complications that arose from that. Edith would have appreciated it very much if the family didn't so quickly want to continue to move on with their lives and plan social functions. She wants them to stop being so open about enjoying themselves and to me, if she wants something like this to happen then she needs to be honest with them.

Re: Mary and Matthew--the sympathy from the family was completely different in that situation because they knew what was going on. They had info about it from multiple people plus there was the added fact of the marriage being in the family's best interests so of course they were keeping an eye about what was going on.

Edith can't expect the family to treat the situation the same as when Matthew died because it wasn't the same for them.

Edith won't be open with Cora and when Cora asks others about Edith she's told that things are fine or that Edith was would prefer to be alone. I feel like it's apparent that Cora cares about what Edith's going through it's just that Edith consistently shuts her out and it was never more obvious than in the scene where Edith is being truthful with Violet and Rosamund and here comes Cora the American Outsider and she's just completely excluded from being apart of the women in the family who are working together to help and support Edith.

Again, at the end of the day Edith needs to take responsibility for her choices and not telling her family the truth about her situation but then at the same time wanting them to behave as though they know what's going on strikes me as Edith being unfair on her family.

1. They knew Michael was NOT just her boss. And it had been two and a half years, during which he had been missing and she had been holding out hope he might still be alive. Robert said as much to Cora, and said it was going to be a blow despite the fact she knew it was likely. When he came to Scotland they knew he was interested in her, and Mary asked Matthew if he thought Michael would propose. She told Robert at the start of S4 that Edith had been seeing him, and she knew he had sent her a Valentine. She told Anna she didn't know what he saw in her, implying a romantic interest/relationship. Cora was not surprised he left the paper to her. Why would he leave his business to one of his many employees? He made her his heir. So this statement is 100% false. The family was perfectly aware that he had been a serious suitor and not simply her employer.

2. So she has to come right out and ask them to please be sensitive to the fact that she just found out that morning Michael was dead? She should not have to tell her family to consider her feelings. She should not have to tell Mary not to stage a Grand Entrance and plan jolly picnics on the very day she got tragic and terrible news, even if it was expected. That's like saying if her suitor/fiance had been dying of terminal cancer for two years, on the day he finally succumbed they couldn't be expected to KNOW that she would be devastated and a little respect and sensitivity is in order.

3. Right, the marriage to Matthew was in the family's best interest. Also in Mary's, and there is no denying they have always cared more about her and paid more attention to her. In Mary's case what's best for her and what's best for the family happen to be one and the same. In Edith's case they are not so much.....but Edith is still PART of the family and therefore they should give a damn about her life, her prospects, her relationships, and her grief.

No one is suggesting they should all be mourning Michael as a person, or should have been as involved in her courtship with him. Only that they should understand that SHE is in morning and give enough of a damn about her to acknowledge it and not carry on as though nothing had happened.

4. Violet and Rosamund only know about the situation because they guessed. And they guessed in part because they interact with her and actually pay attention. They aren't clueless like Cora. And Edith has provided plenty of evidence that something is wrong: her lingering sadness, her interest in Marigold, her nine-month trip to Switzerland? The fact that she asked Cora if she thought she was "bad"? And what does Cora being American have to do with anything? Edith didn't withhold the info from her mother because she's American.

As for Edith being unfair to her family, I see it the other way around. Never making an effort to find her a husband, chasing away the one she DID find, letting Mary bully her and never doing anything about it? Good God, Mary made light of Gregson's death, effectively mocked Edith for holding out hope he was alive, and told her she "ruined everything" just because she was hurt and angry that Mary chose that day to make a jolly scene about her stupid haircut. She could have waited one day for that, but she didn't miss a beat.

And it's not true either that they didn't know how upset she was. They were all sitting there at the table when she got the telegram and looked like she'd been punched in the stomach. They all looked at her, not knowing what to say, fully aware that she was in a state of grief and misery. She didn't have to say anything - and shouldn't have to say anything - for them to know what a blow it was. They knew. They knew and still chose to carry on as though it hadn't happened, because they didn't care. Edith's grief does not merit one day of respect and sensitivity.

Cora actually told Edith she was being unfair to Mary. In front of everyone. But Mary can call Edith an idiot, tell her she spoils everything, say anything she wants and Cora never tells her she's being unfair. And that's what I call unfair. The double standard in that family is appalling. The only one who is a victim of unfairness here is Edith.

There is a reason she is reluctant to share with them: she is insecure in their love and has been taught by experience not to expect much from them. Robert told Edith that if Gregson was dead Mary would pity her. LMFAO. Mary's reaction, and her family's failure to call her out on it? That what Edith has been raised to expect. And that's just what she got.

Edited October 29, 2014 by ZulaMay

shipperx · October 29, 2014

I always side eye the concept of Mary marrying Matthew being in the family's best interest. In what sense exactly?

Let's break this down

1. It does squat for Violet who already has her dowager's portion for life and who will most likely predecese Robert.

2. Had he not blown Cora's fortune in a later season (and if Matthew had not gained a fortune thanks to an unlamented non-family fiancé), it would have accomplished squat for Robert because for the entailment to become a factor, Robert must be dead.

3. Cora as the Dowager countess would --like Violet-- have a dowager's portion and a living in the Dowager house for life. Plus her family is rich. Save for Roberts squandering her fortune years later her circumstances would be basically the same either way.

4. It would impact Sybil and Edith. Though for how long? It wasn't unreasonable to think Robert would live to see them married off (in fact he outlived one daughter). So while it was important as far as dowries go, it wasn't vital. For one thing Cora's fortune was not entailed. They could be willed dowries and stipends independent of the estate. So the only 'betterment' the younger daughters would get is the grace to not be kicked off the estate and, honest to God, does anyone think spinstered Edith would've been worse off left to the mercy of Couisin Matthew and Lavinia than she would be left to Mary?

So the vital difference between Mary marrying Matthew 'for the family' is that it keeps the estate in the family bloodline. That is -- Mary keeps it. And the title in the bloodline. That is--Mary (would've had Matthew not predecesed Robert) and HER son keep it. When all is said and done, other than the prestige factor , when boiled down to practical terms 'for the family' pretty much means 'mostly for Mary''. I understand where they were coming from but practically speaking the only one who would substantivly benefit is Mary. (At least until Robert lost a fortune and Lavinia and her Dad serendipitously bequeathed one to Matthew)

Edited October 29, 2014 by shipperx

ZoloftBlob · October 29, 2014

So the vital difference between Mary marrying Matthew 'for the family' is that the keep the estate in the family bloodline. That is Mary keeps it. And the title in the bloidline. That is. Mary or HER son keeps it.

Yes, but this would have been a very big deal. To be fair I think this was more about *Robert* than "the family" - in that Robert sees himself as the protecter of Downton, and as something of a failed protecter at that. His only contribution has been to marry for money. He has no son, which means without a marriage between Matthew and one of his daughters, all of his direct heirs will be excluded from the ancestral title and from the ancestral estate.

abbyzenn · October 29, 2014

From above: Violet and Rosamund only know about the situation because they guessed. And they guessed in part because they interact with her and actually pay attention

Actually, Rosamund didn't really guess. This was a scene I watched yesterday. Edith was at Rosamund's and told her she would be out all night the following night. Rosamund said something like "Last time you were out all night it was with Gregson, that can't be the reason tomorrow so what is it." Edith then starts crying and eventually tells her she's going to have an abortion.

At the abortionist's Edith says she doesn't see any other way out of it - that she doesn't want to be an outcast and the lady people talk about - maybe Sybil could have pulled it off but not her. I think it's there but it could have been in the earlier scene when it's obvious Rosamund isn't really keen on the abortion idea, Edith says something about keeping the baby and how would Rosamund introduce her "here's my niece and her bastard".

So it's really society that was driving Edith not the family.

We don't know how thriving this publishing business is so we don't really know if Edith is now rich.

I don't get all this "Mary is so beautiful". Although I think in real life Dockery is quite pretty, on the show, especially in season 1, I thought Mary only looks pretty when she has a hat on. I think it's because I haven't liked any of the hairstyles on this show except for Sybil's season 1 and 2. I think that "bob" is terrible style. Mabel's hair looks the best - I can't tell if it's short and curly or the updo just makes it look short. For all of Rose's "rebellion" why hasn't she had a hair cut - after all she's the flapper one. And yes, the hairstyles, clothes and scenery are why I watch this show (and the scenery includes Tom)

Avaleigh · October 29, 2014

That's like saying if her suitor/fiance had been dying of terminal cancer for two years, on the day he finally succumbed they couldn't be expected to KNOW that she would be devastated and a little respect and sensitivity is in order.

I don't think this is the same thing at all. Gregson has been out of the picture for well over two and a half years. It isn't as though the family has seen Edith tending to a sick Gregson for two plus years only to have him finally lose his battle. The family understands that she is upset they just don't know that the situation is a lot more complicated and upsetting than she has led them to believe so I feel like they're working with what Edith is giving them.

The family knew that Gregson was interested in Edith and vice versa but they have no way of knowing that it was a much deeper affair and that a child resulted from the union. Knowing these facts IMO would make a huge difference with everyone's behavior. Tom is an ally of Edith's and he knew that something was going on with her. He too knows that she went away to Switzerland for an extended period, he knows that she was going over to the Drewes because she'd become fond of their foundling, but he still didn't reach the conclusion that Edith has been hiding the fact that she had an illegitimate child with Gregson. I don't blame him and I think it's understandable. Not one person living in that house has enough information to understand the depth of Edith's pain because she refuses to clue them in.

Actually, Rosamund didn't really guess. This was a scene I watched yesterday. Edith was at Rosamund's and told her she would be out all night the following night. Rosamund said something like "Last time you were out all night it was with Gregson, that can't be the reason tomorrow so what is it." Edith then starts crying and eventually tells her she's going to have an abortion.
At the abortionist's Edith says she doesn't see any other way out of it - that she doesn't want to be an outcast and the lady people talk about - maybe Sybil could have pulled it off but not her. I think it's there but it could have been in the earlier scene when it's obvious Rosamund isn't really keen on the abortion idea, Edith says something about keeping the baby and how would Rosamund introduce her "here's my niece and her bastard".

So it's really society that was driving Edith not the family.

Since Edith had been using Rosamund's house like a hotel just as the rest of the family had been doing for much of last season, Rosamund just happened to be in a place where she caught Edith in a situation where Edith couldn't hide what she'd been up to. Rosamund has more information than the other family members and she's acted supportive because Edith has been open with her and has confided in her. I honestly think this makes a huge difference. Violet is somebody who has been accused in the past of treating Edith poorly but as soon as she found out about the situation she's tried her best to be supportive, comforting, and sympathetic.

Edith hasn't really given her family the chance to help her or be supportive or comforting because she won't tell them what she needs or what she's been going through all of this time.

Edith was very concerned about her position in society and that is what ultimately made her decide to lie, be deceptive, and disrupt the lives of two separate families because she didn't want to deal with the full consequences of her actions. It's fair enough for her to want to keep the pregnancy a secret because of how unfairly she and her daughter would have been treated. It starts to feel a little unfair to me though when she just expects her family to treat her situation as though were a newly widowed mother when they have no idea that is in fact what is going on.

And it's not true either that they didn't know how upset she was. They were all sitting there at the table when she got the telegram and looked like she'd been punched in the stomach. They all looked at her, not knowing what to say, fully aware that she was in a state of grief and misery. She didn't have to say anything - and shouldn't have to say anything - for them to know what a blow it was. They knew. They knew and still chose to carry on as though it hadn't happened, because they didn't care.

I disagree. I think they carry on because they're trained to do just that. They come across as people who try not to dwell on unpleasant things and would especially try not to do so in public or during family meals. Edith has been shown as having the same trait in the past.

Pamuk died in their house and I still remember Violet talking about it as though it basically wasn't a big deal. She made a comment that was something along the lines of "If we went to pieces over the death of every foreigner we'd be in a state of collapse every time we opened a newspaper." I feel like with Violet and Robert in particular seem to think that there is this idea that there's something ill-bred about demonstrative in terms of grief. Even Edith has acknowledged this tendency in the family and said that she wishes they could be more like other groups of people who feel free to really let out their anguish and misery. Edith sort of wishes life could be like that but acknowledges that they're all inclined to bottle up their emotions. I think Edith understands on some level why her family members are the way that they are because she's like they are in many ways. She's just in a position now where everything has finally become too much and she doesn't think that she can keep up the game anymore.

Re: JF writing emotional scenes--

I've found myself disappointed on occasion when JF chooses to skip over the really emotional scenes. Sybil's death was one of the few times where I felt like everyone really got to let loose with their emotions but Matthew's death we didn't get any immediate reactions and it was left to our imaginations. To me this is because JF is himself very contained emotionally and I'd go so far as to say that he feels uncomfortable with or writing excessive displays of emotion. This isn't to say that he won't do it but it's pretty rare and I think this aspect of his personality comes through in a lot of his characters.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Avaleigh

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