S03.E12: Uprising

[AmeliaBedelia]

I liked the episode. I thought it moved quickly. I looked at the clock at one point and couldn't believe there were only ten minutes left.

 

Roy's Flash mention at the beginning made me chuckle. I liked the flashbacks...young Tommy! I did think that Diggle should have done some fighting. He was basically hanging over Felicity's shoulder when he could have been more useful elsewhere. Felicity's multiple uses of the phrase "in bed with Malcolm" made my skin crawl.

 

The Felicity/Oliver scene at the end was just okay. The dialogue was awkward, and I'm a bit sick of the angst. Either put them together or don't. The will they/won't they is ruining the Team Arrow dynamic and making the show less fun to watch.

[Chaser]

Does anyone else get the impression that Oliver knew what Felicity's reaction would be? He seemed resigned to it. MG was right about one thing; Oliver seemed tired. I feel for Oliver, but it's Malcolm. Find another way.

 

This whole arc would be more successful it they made Ra's seem like a bigger villain. But we are told about Ra's, while we have seen what Malcolm has done.

[apinknightmare]

Does anyone else get the impression that Oliver knew what Felicity's reaction would be? He seemed resigned to it. MG was right about one thing; Oliver seemed tired. I feel for Oliver, but it's Malcolm. Find another way.

 

Yeah, I think he followed her outside just to get it over with, bless him. Although he did seem a little too obtuse with the "with us, you mean," thing after she told him she fantasized about him doing things differently if he came back. Like...what did you think she was talking about?

Edited February 5, 2015 by apinknightmare

[tv echo]

I may feel differently tomorrow but my immediate reaction is - WTF happened to this show?  WTF happened to Oliver?  From the spoilers, I thought I'd be against Felicity after this episode, but I'm on Team Felicity all the way.

 

Felicity doesn't know she's special to Oliver (if, in fact, she is).  She doesn't know that his last 'dying' thought was of her.  She doesn't know that he dreamed of her.  All she knows is that when they first met, Oliver loved Laurel.  Then he moved on and loved Sara.  Yes, Oliver told her that he loved her, but for all she knows, he told Laurel and Sara that he loved them too.  Then Malcolm murdered Sara via drugged surrogate Thea.  Yet it seems none of that matters now - that Sara didn't matter - if Oliver is willing to work with Malcolm.  So Felicity doesn't want to be a woman that Oliver loves - because it doesn't seem to mean anything.  If Malcolm next murders her, is Oliver going to be all 'eh, I'm still going to work with Malcolm'?  Apparently so, since he's willing to work with the murderer of women he loves.  (Incidentally, I still think that Oliver's reason for not killing Malcolm because he doesn't want to take away Thea's remaining parent is B.S. - same for Thea's easy acceptance of Malcolm, the man responsible for the death of her parents and countless others.)

 

Moreover, as Felicity said, she spent the past month fantasizing about Oliver being alive and returning - that almost dying would change his perspective on their relationship, that they'd finally get together.  Then he shows up alive!  And she thinks her fantasy has come true.  Instead, he's returned all strange and zen-like... 'Malcolm killed my dad and indirectly my mom, my best friend Tommy, my lover Sara, 500 Glades residents, he was responsible for the five worst years of my life, almost got me killed, and turned my sister into an assassin - but hey, no worries - bygones, let's work together.'  As others have said, if it's all about defeating Ra's, isn't there another way?  If Malcolm is good enough to train Oliver to defeat Ra's, why doesn't Malcolm just fight Ra's himself?  Was Oliver replaced with a pod person who now only cares about Thea and Malcolm?  (Or is this foreshadowing of the theme that killing people changes a person?  Maybe you become more of an 'ends justifies the means' kind of guy?)

 

I also want to point out that Oliver defeated Malcolm in season 1.  Yet he now wants to train with Malcolm?!

 

After having worked with Oliver day and night for the past two years, Felicity thought she knew him - he's a hero, right?  Having watched this show for the past 2.5 seasons, I thought I knew Oliver.  But now it's like neither she nor I know him at all.  So I don't blame her for stepping away.

Edited February 5, 2015 by tv echo

[InsertWordHere]

Right! He's a psychopath mass murderer, but he sure cares for his child (when he doesn't abuse her) so it's okay! WTF?? Has the Once Upon A Time writing team taken over Arrow???

Damn, that burn's going to leave a mark. Malcolm and Regina: two characters who never should have been given redemption plots, especially when it's these writers handling them.

Ha! I knew the out of character "but Malcolm really loves his daughter" spiel reminded me of something. OUaT likes to use little kids to try to make Regina more palatable too (when she isn't trying to kill said children). At least, unlike OUaT, some people on the Arrow cast are still allowed to speak up about Malcolm's crimes. I was going to write that Magician Queen (Malcolm/Regina) would be a ship of nightmares, then I realized that could stand for Malcolm/Oliver, and then I remembered that a large segment of internet fans do ship Regina with the woman whose life she ruined and whose parents she repeatedly tried to murder, so maybe it's not that far off.

[apinknightmare]

The will they/won't they is ruining the Team Arrow dynamic and making the show less fun to watch.

 

I actually don't think it's ruined it at all, which surprises me. I guess we'll see what happens after this latest rejection, but it's been okay so far IMO.

[BkWurm1]

There was one moment where I was near tears I was so happy and proud - when Diggle turned Malcolm down.  I was so afraid that Diggle would side with Roy and Laurel.  Ramsey was magnificent in that scene.  I got chills. 

Edited February 5, 2015 by BkWurm1

[apinknightmare]

One moment where I was near tears I was so happy and proud.  When Diggle turned Malcolm down.  I was so afraid that Diggle would side with Roy and Laurel.  Ramsey was magnificent in that scene.  I got chills. 

 

I agree, I loved it. I was a little confused at Laurel saying "We did the right thing, didn't we?" after, like...you were all for teaming up with him two minutes ago, lady.

Edited February 5, 2015 by apinknightmare

[calliope1975]

I wonder if MG is banking on people just thinking of Ra's from Batman Begins because it's easier than actually writing a decent story. The Ra's we've seen so far seems practical and ruthless, but I felt Slade was more of a big bad than him. Plus Matt Nable didn't particularly impress me. I agree that we've seen, over and over again, why Malcolm is a horrid person who shouldn't be trusted. So what do our heroes do? Be Malcolm's BFF! 

 

I hope Slade put secret cameras in the lair as well and is just sitting in his cell rolling his eyes at these shenanigans. (I bet Oliver left him with an iPad for entertainment.) 

[statsgirl]

Yeah I don't think he is, but to each their own. I think Ra's has killed at least as many people as Malcolm if not more, he made Sara 'loser her soul" if not her life. It doesn't mean Oliver is any less an idiot for opting to go this way, there is no good justifiable character reason for this to be happening, but BIG PICTURE moral stuff, i could GAF if he uses one mass murdering asshole to take out another. I just hope he does it with some long term plan in mind, which we do not know because they gave the plot point the least amount of time they cold to get to the beat they wanted: Felicity rejecting him.

Ra's has been alive for hundreds of years though, Malcolm did much of it in one swell swoop because he refused Rebecca's phone calls.  (That's my story and I"m sticking to it - guilt projection makes it more interesting.)  And while Ra's is dangerous, he has a code so forewarned is forearmed.  Malcolm is just BSC all over the place, and he'll turn on you in a second if it's an advantage to him.

 

Ra's may have made Sara 'lose her soul', after Nyssa saved her life, but Malcolm also made Thea lose her soul while professing to love her.  He also said he loves Oliver and sent him to get killed in his place too.

 

This whole arc would be more successful it they made Ra's seem like a bigger villain. But we are told about Ra's, while we have seen what Malcolm has done.

This.  It's another example of relying too much on the comics lore this season instead of writing the beats on the show itself.

[Starfish35]

I wonder if MG is banking on people just thinking of Ra's from Batman Begins because it's easier than actually writing a decent story. The Ra's we've seen so far seems practical and ruthless, but I felt Slade was more of a big bad than him.

I was just thinking the same thing. I feel like we're supposed to take for granted that Ra's is the bigger Big Bad, because it's Ra's. But they just haven't established that in the show as far as I'm concerned. And if we're going by the movie, Malcolm is really this show's version of that Ra's (The Undertaking, anyone?). I'd be far more likely to sympathize with Oliver teaming up with Ra's to take down Malcolm, not the other way around.

[El Seed]

I agree, I loved it. I was a little confused at Laurel saying "We did the right thing, didn't we?" after, like...you were all for teaming up with him two minutes ago, lady.

 

And she was all for killing him a few months ago. So I'd say it's pretty consistent for Laurel.

[statsgirl]

If Diggle also turned down Malcolm, and Felicity got mad as hell about it, are we supposed to take it that Oliver is in the wrong when he joins up with MM?

[SmallScreenDiva]

If Diggle also turned down Malcolm, and Felicity got mad as hell about it, are we supposed to take it that Oliver is in the wrong when he joins up with MM?

 

I think that's exactly what we're supposed to think. Diggle had a line during his convo with Merlyn about the end not really justifying the means. I think that's what this episode was trying to hammer home.

[BkWurm1]

I'm going to have to rewatch the final scene with Felicity and Oliver to get a better feel for the acting and the nuances but I find myself getting more and more upset that Oliver would disrespect both Thea and Sara so badly by his almost casual decision to closely associate with Malcolm.    I find myself at that frustrated mad level that hurts more for the disillusionment than the actual action. 

 

He says he's doing for Thea, that he would do anything for Thea, but right now, I don't believe him.  In his mind, it's black and white and maybe Felicity contributed to his confusion by her earlier edict to kill Ra's but fighting him directly didn't work.  The answer is not to train with someone not as good as Ra's (or Malcolm would have challenged him) but to find another way and NOT redo the same madness that got him killed. 

 

It's like Diggle said.  They have to make the right choices or risk turning into the same kind of man they are fighting against. 

 

Oliver has made a mistake and if the show doesn't end up agreeing with that, then so help me, I don't think I will be able to keep watching.

 

Unless they distract me with some really smutty Olicity, cause yeah, I'm weak like that.  I'll still have lost all respect for the show though.   

[catrox14]

I'll tell you what. IMO this show is NOTHING without Oliver. I so victory armed and cheered when he showed back up when his arrow landed next to Roy. Stephen just has a presence that grounds the whole thing with Oliver being back in Starling City as the Arrow. MV

 

But I'm really pissed off that Quentin had to learn that wasn't Sara from Sin. and thanks GODS she knew it wasn't her.

Diggle not being in the field with Laurel and Roy is bullshit. 

Laurel sucks. She looks awful and creepy in her costume. And hope Quentin disowns her for lying to him about Sara.

Felicity made me so sad. I understand her position but I kind of understand Oliver's too at this point. He has bigger fish to fry. And EBR had to sell the worst line of dialogue and she did and it broke my heart.  And Stephen sold how stunned he was that Felicity was like , peace out.

I'm not loving the Malcolm stuff as much as I would have liked, BUT I am excited about the idea of Malcolm training Oliver and I don't really have a huge problem with it.  I understand Diggle and Felicity's viewpoint but I think Oliver thinks he doesn't have many choices so the enemy of my enemy and all that. 

Edited February 5, 2015 by catrox14

[quarks]

Well, I'll be a contrarian and I say I liked the episode. Sure, large portions made no sense, for the first time in a while there were some serious sound issues with the looping, I'm getting a bit tired of seeing the same sets pop up on Tuesday and Wednesday nights only lightly disguised by different lighting, and we all need to have a very serious talk about what Thea is wearing, but this "Let's redeem Malcolm!" storyline is so gleefully batshit wrong I'm totally on board.  

 

Plus, we all learned a very important lesson: when facing the world's most dangerous assassin be sure to take some sort of satellite cell phone along with you so you can avoid having to add that problem to your attempt to convince the woman you love that really, teaming up with a mass murderer is one awesome idea.

 

Good things:

 

1. I know you are all trying to complain that this show is inconsistent, but did you look at how terrible Malcolm's wig was in the flashback? Completely consistent with all of the other terrible flashback wigs on this show. I love it.

 

2. Sin is back! YAY Sin!  And she told Quentin the truth. Even better!

 

3. Little Oliver and Tommy were adorable. Little Nyssa - not so much, but it's difficult to cast for a two minute appearance, I guess, and get something close to adult Nyssa's accent.  Let's put this under "tried."

 

4. Oliver's Independence Day speech, and the way the crowd was all, sure, we'll just cheer for the nutcase shooting arrows.

 

5. Quentin's "I know who you are, Harper!"  and Roy's, ok, I'll just switch off this voice modulator, then.

 

6. Tatsu is really growing on me. I know she's had it with life, and watching this show, I can see her point of view, but I'm finding myself hoping that she'll hear about the wonders of Netflix and decide that unlimited streaming is worth joining Team Arrow for.

 

7. No Ray. I didn't realize how much he was grating on me until he was gone.

 

8. Felicity and Diggle deciding to stick with what was right, instead of what was expedient. 

 

9. Felicity's complete contempt for Malcolm. Also great.

 

10. The final Oliver/Felicity scene. I did think one point was a bit rushed - Oliver leapt into the "and, yes, I'm going to be working with Malcolm" very quickly - without explaining to any of the rest of the team (and the audience) just how important defeating Ra's was, but more on this in a bit.  But I liked that Oliver already knew that she was going to respond badly to this, and that like his younger self, he didn't have the right words for this.

 

11. Malcolm chewing scenery all over the place, and Vinnie Jones having fun.

 

12.  The scene between Diggle and Malcolm in the alleyway.

 

13. The little news show pointing out that the city giving into Brick was a bad, bad move.

 

14. And, ok, I may have cheered a little when Oliver swung over the crowd. Just a little.

 

Questionable things:

 

1. Brick, I really don't want to tell you how to run your business or hire your goons, but hiring goons who know that you don't read TV, but watch it, might be a start.

 

2. Malcolm's a billionaire, and he's taking off with just $50,000 in cash?  Come on, show.  You can do better than this. A billionaire should be carrying around at least $500,000 when fleeing.

 

3. The biggie: at some point at the end, we needed one more line:  "Felicity, I also told you that I would do anything - anything - to save my sister. And if that means training with Malcolm, then I'll train with Malcolm."

 

We did get a bit of "Ra's is going to kill me," at the beginning of the episode - but Team Arrow didn't get told that. They could probably guess, but they weren't told that. What they saw was Ra's not killing Oliver after all.  And while sure, Ra's threatened to kill two people per day in Starling City and he's running a group of highly trained assassins, but from everything we've seen on the show, they seem to have a sense of honor and they even came to help out Starling City. Malcolm's a mass murderer who used Thea to kill Sara and then sent Oliver off to kill Ra's. Between Malcolm and Ra's, I'm Team Ra's. 

 

I'm actually all for the enemy of my enemy and all that - but apart from the small problem that Arrow already kinda ran this plot last year, Ra's just hasn't been built up to quite the same threat level yet. I think part of the problem is that Malcolm and John Barrowman are gleefully over the top, and Ra's and Noble just...aren't.

 

Though to be fair, Brick seemed to have an easy enough time getting most of the city to cave to him, so possibly Ra's is more of a threat to Starling than I'm giving him credit for.

[BkWurm1]

I'm not loving the Malcolm stuff as much as I would have liked, BUT I am excited about the idea of Malcolm training Oliver and I don't really have a problem with it. The enemy of my enemy and all that.

 

I want to be excited about Malcolm training Oliver.  I love BSC Malcolm, but right now Oliver isn't treating him like BSC, he's sympathizing and trying to build him up and want's to basically apprentice with him.  He wants to soak up his knowledge and wisdom and THAT is BSC. 

 

Think how differently we might feel if Oliver put on a nicey nice façade to Malcolm's face, but behind Malcolm's back was a seething ball of rage.  Think of how differently Felicity would have reacted if Oliver expressed his disgust at having to work with the man. How it sickens his soul but that he'd just been to hell and back and he would make a deal with the devil if it meant he could put down the demon (hey this just writes itself) .  And then, then he could concentrate on getting Malcolm out of Thea's life. 

 

Argh!!!!!!!

 



[apinknightmare]

He says he's doing for Thea, that he would do anything for Thea, but right now, I don't believe him.  In his mind, it's black and white and maybe Felicity contributed to his confusion by her earlier edict to kill Ra's but fighting him directly didn't work.  The answer is not to train with someone not as good as Ra's (or Malcolm would have challenged him) but to find another way and NOT redo the same madness that got him killed. 

 

If Oliver was really trying to protect Thea, he'd let her know that Malcolm drugged her and manipulated her into things she can't remember. He doesn't have to tell her about Sara's murder, but I cannot buy this guy going all in with Merlyn to protect Thea all the while knowing Merlyn cannot be trusted and HAS DRUGGED HER IN THE PAST and just leaves her there in the dark, fully open to being drugged and manipulated again. 

[benteen]

If Malcolm is getting the forced redemption, will Slade eventually get it?  Oliver did love his mother so that means he's likely to team up with him in the future!

 

Roy had really faired well in this storyline.  To see him became Malcolm Meryln's cheerleader was bizarre and hurt the character.

[NoWayOut]

I was just thinking the same thing. I feel like we're supposed to take for granted that Ra's is the bigger Big Bad, because it's Ra's. But they just haven't established that in the show as far as I'm concerned.

This is also how I feel about the Ted Grant character. He's supposed to this insanely skilled fighter but I'm not seeing it. We were told that he used to be a vigilante and that's it. To me, he doesn't look any more or less skilled than the trainers you can find at your local boxing gym. Even Thea looks like she can hold her own against Ted at this point.

[La Dee Da]

I thought there were things to like in this episode and that it sets up the identity narrative for the rest of season, something that seemed lacking in the first half.  The last scene was really good (a Felicity reaction shot when he first showed up would have been fitting but I get why they wanted to save that for the rollercoaster of emotions at the end) - neither was right or wrong there.  Admittedly, I found the fact that the arrow suit made it back to the lair before the Team Arrow reunion a little distracting (I assume so they could have "the Arrow" looming over Oliver's shoulder while he explained his choice).

 

I think he knows Oliver is Arrow, but is just playing stupid.

 

Lance's last scene of the series will involve him calling Oliver by name, followed by Oliver going "buh?"

 

I can't believe that Felicity couldn't detect the remote control software that Merlyn installed on her workstation.

I chalk that up to her grief-induced comatose state - not sure how you rationalize it going forward, though, as for sure there will be further scenes of spying.  Malcolm will need amunition to be the little assassin devil sitting on Oliver's shoulder!

 

Ugh, Felicity.  Belly shirts are bad enough, but your issues with Oliver are not about love!  

 

I think they're about what she loves about Oliver, and how his choices will move him away from those qualities and why she believes in him - what his identity is to her.  I'm not a fan of love triangles (and how they wrote the cupid episode to hit the traditional triangle notes), but I am slightly curious how they will proceed, given they've written Ray to basically be Oliver without the issues, at least at this point.  So less a "choice" between someone leading this life and someone who isn't, and more a choice about how that life is led and her support for and part in it.  So Ray is more a concept than a romantic partner, in my mind. 

 

Oliver knows now that the only way to learn to think like Ra's is to learn from one of his students..Malcolm.  He also knew it would cost him the thing that he treasures most...Felicity.   

I agree it is more about the thinking and less the swordfighting skills, and how far he's willing to go to think like Malcolm.  I don't think the episode was about redeeming Malcolm (no one who had that haircut in the 90s can be redeemed :) - it's made clear, by the man himself a couple of times, that he has done bad things that can't be rationalized.  By emphasizing those choices, and the journey Malcolm took to get to that point, they are pointing to the dangers Oliver faces in taking the same journey - the stripping down of his humanity.   I assume there will be some uneasiness with the "training" (as Diggle said, the ends don't justify the means - it'll probably be something sneaky like pretending to join the League in order to get to Ra's) and Oliver will learn something like "the student has to chart his own course/be true to who he is", resolving that pesky triangle issue at the same time! 

 

Anyway, lots of thoughts, far from the innocent early days of the season when all I had to wonder was when the bed in the foundry would be put to good use. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

Oh, I totally forgot about this, which is weird because in terms of action sequences this was supposed to be the pièce de résistance — the Glades folks with their baseball bats and some 2x4s against Brick's machine gun-toting minions? Are effing kidding me? This one definitely falls under the very, very BAD.

[Lady Calypso]

I do think that I am on Oliver's side with this one, but I also am kind of on Felicity's as well. This is the one rare time where I am on both sides and understand the angst. Felicity absolutely has every right to be upset and I don't blame her for shutting the relationship down. She barely knows what happened with Oliver during the weeks he went missing and was presumed dead. Oliver almost always dies so Felicity doesn't know the whole story. She doesn't trust Malcolm, and she shouldn't, and it's cool that Diggle is on her side. Roy....eh, I'll chalk that up to Stupidity Via Writers, and weakness to Thea. 

 

However, I can see where Oliver's coming from. I would like to think that since Ra's killed him, Oliver is terrified of it happening again. He'll probably be found out to be alive soon and he knows Ra's will come for another duel when that happens. His previous training won't hold up against Ra's this time and he needs someone from the League to help him train and be prepared when he does come for him. Ergo, Malcolm Merlyn. I would like to think Oliver doesn't trust him, but he unfortunately needs him to stay alive, to keep Thea alive and to keep his team alive. But also, more importantly, he wants to save his city and the League would probably destroy Starling, so he kind of has to put a sliver of trust in Malcolm to save everyone. This whole 'nearly dying' experience certainly has changed Oliver and I doubt he'll be the same guy.

 

Now, if Oliver and Malcolm end up having drinks and laughing about 'that time Malcolm killed his own son...hehehe, let's talk about childhood Tommy and Ollie stories', then I'll be pissed. But I honestly think Oliver is just using Malcolm to defeat Ra's. He even glances at Thea before saying 'I'll have you to train me'. He doesn't say anything about trusting Malcolm, just that he has to be trained so he can kill him. He's clearly not thrilled by the idea but Felicity doesn't realize how badly he lost at his duel. He fell off a mountain and was very close to death. I think if, and when, Oliver opens up to her about that, she'll see that working with Malcolm is the only option for now.

 

So yeah, Felicity needs to know what happened on that mountain in order to understand where Oliver is coming from. He'll never admit how scared he is, but I would love if he did. But I do think Felicity's right in being angry, because of the limited information she has.

 

I was underwhelmed by Oliver's return, though. Maybe it was too little reunion stuff and more angst, which is a shame. Oh well, I'm just glad he's back.

 

I have fast forwarded through the Black Canary scenes so I don't have to endure her fighting skills. I'm glad Sin told Quentin that Sara isn't Sara. 

 

Also, SA broke my heart with that last look in the final scene. It looked like someone kicked his dog. Poor guy; I do think he's gone through an awful lot. I think Oliver needs an actual vacation.

Edited February 5, 2015 by jessied112

[tv echo]

I can't emphasize this enough.  Oliver fought Malcolm and DEFEATED him in season 1.  So why would Oliver think that training with Malcolm would help him defeat Ra's?

 

I also don't buy this "only the student has a hope of defeating the teacher" B.S.  If that were true, Ra's would've been dead long ago.

[catrox14]

I want to be excited about Malcolm training Oliver.  I love BSC Malcolm, but right now Oliver isn't treating him like BSC, he's sympathizing and trying to build him up and want's to basically apprentice with him.  He wants to soak up his knowledge and wisdom and THAT is BSC. 

 

Think how differently we might feel if Oliver put on a nicey nice façade to Malcolm's face, but behind Malcolm's back was a seething ball of rage.  Think of how differently Felicity would have reacted if Oliver expressed his disgust at having to work with the man. How it sickens his soul but that he'd just been to hell and back and he would make a deal with the devil if it meant he could put down the demon (hey this just writes itself) .  And then, then he could concentrate on getting Malcolm out of Thea's life. 

 

Argh!!!!!!!

 



 

Oh see I had a completely different read on it. I think Oliver is playing Malcolm. He was way too nice. I say this because Oliver was being nice to Malcolm in front of Thea but the moment he Malcolm were out of ear and eyeshot of Thea, IMO Oliver's demeanor changed and he reminded Malcolm of his sins. I don't think for a minute Oliver is forgiving Malcolm IMO he's manipulating him. 

[quarks]

Bad things:

 

1. I know this show isn't great with consistency. I also know that the setup required at least one character to argue in favor of working with Malcolm. It couldn't be Felicity, and the show needed Diggle to confront Malcolm afterwards, so we needed his feelings to be in doubt.

 

But that still left us in the awkward situation of seeing an ADA argue on behalf of working with the mass murderer who killed her boyfriend, who just a few episodes ago she wanted Oliver to kill, not to mention Roy, who lost eleven friends in the Glades, arguing for this as well. Sigh. I know they wanted suspense, and that the Brick situation is dangerous, but I have to admit while I was watching it I was kinda thinking, you know, all four of them should just be saying, "No." 

 

I'm actually more on board with Oliver agreeing to work with Malcolm - he's just faced Ra's and knows Ra's is coming for him, and knows that he's gotta take any chance to stay alive. And Tatsu presented a convincing argument.  That said....

 

2. Oliver deciding to learn from Malcolm instead of -- you know -- the guy who also learned from Ra's?  The one who - if memory serves - was on the show just last week? Maseo, I think?

 

Oh well. It's batshit insane. I'm on board.

 

3. Ted Grant. Still boring. And now, apparently, dead. Speaking of -

 

And now, Laurel:

 

I am seriously beginning to think that we need to rename her the Black Death instead of the Black Canary.  Ok, sure, Oliver's killed more people, and Malcolm's killed a lot more people, and they've both watched people die, but think of it: just how many people have died while Laurel is crying over them or because of Laurel's screwups? Tommy, Sara, now Ted Grant, not to mention the alderman last episode and the cop last season.

 

I will give her credit for thinking up the idea of asking the rest of the Glades to help out.  Yes, true, it took her about 50 odd episodes to think of a useful idea, but let us give credit where credit is due. I also liked her little moment of telling Felicity that Oliver was lucky to have found her, and the moment where she admitted to Roy that she was scared.

 

Otherwise, how'd she do this episode?

 

Number of times Laurel fails as a lawyer: She apparently has given up this career. Moving on!

 

Number of times Laurel fails as a human being, two: 1, Wanting to use Malcolm as some sort of a human bullet. 2, forcing her father to find out that the woman in black leather isn't Sara from Sin, not herself, like YIKES LAUREL if he has a heart attack - and I saw the pills appear this episode - I am blaming you. I know that since your heart has since managed the high stress of your job and speed chases and everything else, I'm being unfair, but I'll still be blaming you.

 

Number of times Laurel fails as a vigilante, five: 1, she needs about 80 extras to help her bring down bad guys; 2, she doesn't have her own motorcycle, like, get with the vigilante cycling program, Laurel; you have a job, you can afford a little $1000 model; 3, needing to be rescued by a mass murderer like, seriously what is this? Yes, yes, I know Thea also needed to be rescued, but that was from Mirakurued supersoldiers. This was from a guy she just defeated, if briefly, last week., 4, Getting Ted Grant killed, 5, stopping in the middle of a major fight scene to lean over Ted like, priorities, Laurel.

 

On a meta level - interestingly enough, in this, part two or three of the Laurel as Black Canary arc, the flashbacks focused on Malcolm; the major emotional beats in the present day went to Felicity and Malcolm.

[foreverevolving]

I don't have much to say just: how has this show managed to so perfectly cast young Nyssa and yet fail epically with the casting of young Oliver and Tommy? Those boys were awful, so awful it even affected JB acting- i found his acting tonight during the flashback scenes downright embarrassingly bad - except during his scene with baby Nyssa.

Also that wig.. Just... No.

I think Oliver is taking Tatsu advice to heart "the student will defeat the master"(or something like that)...

I couldn't decide between smiling and grimacing during lienary and Ted scene on the ground. My face were similar to Jack's gif face, Jack also made an appearance when I realized that once again Diggle was in the lair while Fakanary was out fighting...

Sin and Felicity the queens of truth.

Felicity being BAMF sitting on her throne,

I was fine with the last scene, again truth bombs.

On this week episode of "through the looking glass" Roy is used to prop a character, and sadly i was only slightly able to stomach it better than the use of Felicity last week.. Speaking of which:. Fakanary is nice to Felicity - which made me smile and than I remembered what happened last week to prompt this change and my inner Dalek really wanted to come out and play with bucklecanary -insert evil snicker here-

ETA: or pretty much most of what Quarks has written.

Edited February 5, 2015 by foreverevolving

[catrox14]

I can't emphasize this enough.  Oliver fought Malcolm and DEFEATED him in season 1.  So why would Oliver think that training with Malcolm would help him defeat Ra's?

 

I also don't buy this "only the student has a hope of defeating the teacher" B.S.  If that were true, Ra's would've been dead long ago.

 

Malcolm beat Oliver twice before that. And Oliver made the mistake of not verifying that Merlyn was really dead, and the Glades fell anyway. I'm not so sure that counts as a victory over Malcolm. But regardless, Malcolm has certain skill sets, like faking death that Oliver doesn't have.  So I do believe there are things Oliver can learn from Malcolm. 

[Orion]

Bad things:

 

2, she doesn't have her own motorcycle, like, get with the vigilante cycling program, Laurel; you have a job, you can afford a little $1000 model; .

And now I'm totally picturing Laurel riding a black moped with yellow flames behind Roy and Oliver on the big boy bikes.

[slayer2]

I liked the episode. I thought it moved quickly. I looked at the clock at one point and couldn't believe there were only ten minutes left.

 

Roy's Flash mention at the beginning made me chuckle. I liked the flashbacks...young Tommy! I did think that Diggle should have done some fighting. He was basically hanging over Felicity's shoulder when he could have been more useful elsewhere. Felicity's multiple uses of the phrase "in bed with Malcolm" made my skin crawl.

 

The Felicity/Oliver scene at the end was just okay. The dialogue was awkward, and I'm a bit sick of the angst. Either put them together or don't. The will they/won't they is ruining the Team Arrow dynamic and making the show less fun to watch.

 

Props to your screenname BTW.Makes me want to haphazardly drop something. I enjoyed the episode too. I assumed Diggle was staying out of the field because like Lyla and Ollie asked he's a dad now and been made aware of how precious life is also with someone else with no ties ready and willing to ride shotgun with Roy it makes it easier for him to say no. He's a pretty stand-up guy so I don't think he would abstain were Roy completely alone.

 

I really liked the Roy/Laurel combo and found it a lot of fun to watch. What a treat to see some really great Team Arrow action sequences. I've just loved having Oliver "dead" and sequestered from the group. It gives me a chance to see what everyone is made of and how they interact and behave independent of Oliver and they did not fail to amuse or entertain. Diggle, Roy, Laurel and Felicity have a great team chemistry, I quite liked it, and I quite enjoyed Oliver's scenes isolated with Tatsu.

 

One of my favourite episodes of Buffy has always been season 3 episode 1 when they removed her from the rest of the gang and placed her in LA as a waitress and she had to kind of fight her way back emotionally and the Scooby gang had to try to slay without her. I just love seeing how a show evolves without the lead, how chemistry's shift and who takes the leadership role. I think they placed it perfectly with Diggle being the deciding factor and ultimately the one whom everyone looks to to make the final decisions. There is something very exciting about watching people who aren't superhuman (I definitely consider Ollie and Sara to be superhuman in their training skills and disappearing tricks) do the best they can to stand up for what they believe in (we could use a bit of that in Canada right now).  

 

I think this episode did a good job of showing what two camps would do  (Ollie/Team Arrow) when they were hitting rock bottom and just scraping the bottom of the barrel for solutions, and the sacrifices they would or wouldn't make to come out of the situation. Again with the Lazarus thing in play I can't see Felicity's point of view in that moment any more than I could see Thea's in season 1 because if I'd just spent a month mourning my "dead" lover and he returned to me I would have nothing but tears, hugs, kissing and a whole lotta bow chicka wow wow for him. It wouldn't be well into the middle of the night or fortnight after the reunion that I'd be scratching my head and shoving him and expressly forbidding his idea.

 

Saying you don't want to be loved by someone who clearly does love you is one thing, but saying you don't want to be loved by someone who just recently crawled out of a veritable grave with nothing but his thoughts of you mere moments after you see him again is quite another. Felicity needs to check her emotions at the door and come to it with a Buffy season 7 kind of vibe because that was some cold slab, morgue shit and it could have waited until midnight when the chariot turned back into a pumpkin and the rats ran away.

 

If I were Ollie I wouldn't even bother coming back anymore because every single time he comes back from the dead the women in his life (mother excluded) treat him like doo doo. Good lord I think the only woman they knew how to write consistently and well on this show was Sara and they lead with her cheating with her sister's boyfriend so even then.....yikes. James Cameron is a douchecanoe but the dude knows how to write women, maybe someone needs to sit down with him for a spell and just figure how to get shit done!

 

Sin! Oh Sin, I'm so glad you have a new show but damn I missed you. I also liked that she knew that it wasn't Sara but by the same token I didn't because if she knew and Papa Cop didn't but he did know that Arsenal was Roy....oy vey. Someone was saying that that little nugget is what fanfic slash dreams are made of. That was quite the little misstep on TPTB's part unless it was intentional to my mind it seems rather ludicrous. (because of the rapper I always have to doublecheck if I'm spelling that word correctly)

 

 

2, she doesn't have her own motorcycle, like, get with the vigilante cycling program, Laurel; you have a job, you can afford a little $1000 model; .

 

And if she had one then people would be complaining about the fact that she knows how to ride a motorcycle and how unbelievable that is. She can't win.

Edited February 5, 2015 by slayer2

[BkWurm1]

I don't think for a minute Oliver is forgiving Malcolm IMO he's manipulating him.

 

I don't think he is forgiving him, but I do think he is trying to make him better for Thea, which feels like an attempt to at least partially redeem him.  Also, I can't see how he is manipulating Malcolm.  His plan is to get Malcolm, the student, train him so he can defeat the master.  Seems pretty straight forward.  

[Carrie Ann]

I knocked Ray for it so I have to knock Oliver for it. You do not tell a woman what she is upset about. Bad Show!!!

[...]

Laurel *sigh* I just can't, this is so beyond idiotic I can't even laugh at it. Really appreciated her telling Felicity that she knows this because, "she's been paying attention" Good job Laurel you managed not to snap at Dig and Felicity for a whole episode.

 

Ugh, that first point, YES. That alone put me on Felicity's side in that argument. Guess what--she can be upset about multiple things at once! Women can hold multiple thoughts in their heads at the same time, and feel multiple things. Almost like we're people and CONTAIN MULTITUDES.

 

Also, yep, they underplayed that Laurel line, but the snideness was still there. Can't hide it forever I guess. 

 

Why doesn't Oliver just hand Malcolm over to Ra's? Malcolm killed Sara. Thea was just the (drugged) weapon Malcolm used. Ra's is already after Malcolm and with Ra's code of honor…?

 

What am I missing? Am I stupid?

 

This is the most ridiculous piece of this Malcolm Merlyn redemption tour. If you (Roy, Thea, Oliver, whoever else buys this shit) are willing to believe that he's just really messed up, but that he does things for REASONS and that he really loves certain people and wants to help, then the logical next step is to ask him to prove it. By fighting Ra's himself. And they're just taking Malcolm at his word that the LoA would certainly come after Thea for Sara's death too. We don't know that. Malcolm believes he's a stronger fighter than Oliver. No reason he shouldn't be the one to fight, in that case.

 

There's no way the show is on Malcolm/Oliver's side here--Diggle and Felicity are established as the moral center of the show, so what they say goes, in that department--but that doesn't mean that the writers don't find MM super fascinating and awesome, and aren't trying to put that whole "gotta see both sides" thing across about Oliver training with him. Nope. I don't. I don't blame Oliver for making a fast, stupid decision. But I'm annoyed that we're wasting time on what is obviously a dead-end plot. We know this doesn't end well for Oliver. And I'm already irritated at the 15 minutes we wasted on a supervillain's manpain backstory. I DGAF about Malcolm Merlyn. I care about Oliver.

Edited February 5, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[catrox14]

I don't think he is forgiving him, but I do think he is trying to make him better for Thea, which feels like an attempt to at least partially redeem him.  Also, I can't see how he is manipulating Malcolm.  His plan is to get Malcolm, the student, train him so he can defeat the master.  Seems pretty straight forward.  

 

Maybe manipulating is the wrong word, but I don't think Oliver is all "Yay Malcolm. I'll be your BFF" or anything. He's using him for his purposes and I guess I have more faith in Oliver than most here that he is going to be smarter than actually respect Malcolm on any level.

[calliope1975]

First off, that wig was Nic Cage levels of awful. I think showing tiny!Tommy would have been enough to clue me in that it was the past. So I'm to believe that Merlyn's wife dying is what turned him into a mass murdering, crazy pants nutjob, but before that he was a swell guy? I'm not buying what you are selling.

 

Props for showing The Lazarus Effect commercial. Nice synergy. 

 

This is the first time I've watched any Laurel scenes in a long time. I'll just say I'll be going back to my original plan of ignoring her existence and fast forwarding her scenes. She annoys me in the lair. It's unfortunate, I don't think it will change, but there it is. On the other hand, I love Tatsu/RF and I hope she sticks around for a long, long time. One of the things on my ever shortening list of things I'm looking forward to is her as Katana. 

 

And now I see why I like Roy just hanging out in the background. That little speech about Malcolm was bullshit and I feel sorry for Colton that he had to actually say those lines. Malcolm didn't have a motive to go after Thea? Righhhhtt. Meanwhile, everyone is still lying to Thea. When is Slade going to spill some more truth tea? 

 

Hi Sin! Glad you're not an idiot. Sorry your surrogate sister was murdered and no one told you. Come back soon! Lance could use a new daughter. I bet he'd take you in. 

 

As for Oliver's decision to work with Malcolm? Nope. A big bag of nopes. I'm glad Felicity told him where to get off. Ditch all these pod people, baby, and go find Dick Grayson in Bludhaven. Become BFFs with Oracle. Help out Bats when he needs it. Props to Barrowman, though. He oozes slime every time he slithers into a scene. After actually watching, I still think we're going to get some epic (oh, yeah "epic") scenes of retconning where Oliver was playing Malcolm all along. And the writers will pat themselves on the back for how smart they are and congratulate themselves on being the bestest writers ever.

 

Overall, I'm surprised by how much I wasn't angry. I think I've reached apathy. Where does that put me in my grieving process?

 

Forgot to add - Oliver, please never leave again. That first 1/2 of the show was noticeably missing something. SA has presence and there's a reason they hired him as the lead and named the freaking show after him. 

[BumpSetSpike]

So disappointed in this episode. For the first time, I fast forwarded through major scenes just to get through the episode.

Disappointed having Laurel as a member of the team. Just cannot enjoy the show when I wholeheartedly feel she is not the true Black Canary, that she truly cannot become a superhero n a few months, just am annoyed with her character in general.

Disappointed in the writing of Arrow's return. Incredibly underwhelming. The writers lost what could have been an hugely emotional opportunity with the team, including Laurel, with his return to Starling City. Wish he showed up to them in person first instead of saving the day and having the people who love him, Diggle and Felicity, see him on the TV screen and not share with us what could have been a wonderful scene.

Disappointed that Oliver was so close to death and now he is strong enough to save his city, fly via arrow across the long way of the street, and just act if he is fine but just a bit "tired" (mg's quote).

Disappointed that TPTB could even think that Oliver would join forces in any way with Merlyn after all that has happened. No freaking way does that even come close to being something I can understand based on the Oliver we have come to know.

Disappointed that Diggle is so dang underused and unappreciated for what he brings to this show.

Disappointed that a show I obsessed about for over two years is becoming one I'm ready to stop watching.

Only redeeming parts of tonight was EBRs performances (can't wait to see her grow as an actor in the upcoming years), Roy's character development which I can't believe I'm actually writing, and seeing Sin back even though her time tonight was so limited.

And Katsu, we need you more ... There is a storyline I want to follow. Her scenes with Oliver were wonderful and heartfelt.

This show is no longer about Oliver's journey. That is what drew me so hard to Arrow. That seems to be gone now and is now an ensemble show which I find little interest in.

Edited February 5, 2015 by BumpSetSpike

[Actionmage]

The reason Mama Merlyn died, besides (supposedly now) Brick killing her, is that Malcolm couldn't be bothered to answer his phone during a business meeting! I remember Malcolm telling Tommy this story and the playing of Rebecca's calls on the voice mail. It broke my heart for Tommy and bought Malcolm a couple of moments of pity. We are now supposed to believe this narcissist sociopath?  That we are supposed to believe this lying liar who lies? Sorry, I actually have a memory and use it.

 

Thank Grodd we have Sin! She delivered the Truth and now Quentin should have some righteous anger to deliver, hopefully, starting with his last living daughter. Never stop giving Roy crap, though, Quentin. It's a bit fun.

 

Maybe Tatsu knows better than to get within a continent of Waller. Tatsu might have reason to tee off on Waller, so it's best not to go there since this Waller is as BSC as Malcolm.

 

I hope when Ra's comes to town, he's all "Boy, why do you believe a word out of the Magician's gaping maw of darkness?"

 

Just so much bad writing and not enough good to balance things overall.  Anything Diggle/ DR is golden, though, so I liked that.

 

Just hate that the writing has regular citizens- the cops and residents- of the Glades written as dumb and super frightened. You'd think they would be tired of assholes screwing with their part of town and have an arsenal ( sorry) of their own to take care of folks exactly like Danny Brickwell! Twice in two years sheer hell has pee'd on them! Why would they be so passive in a town that is Gotham-lite (since Ollie is being cast as Bruce-lite)? Because reasons, that's why. We got a nice use of Sin, so I can't hate on that, but ... whatever, Show.

[apinknightmare]

Saying you don't want to be loved by someone who clearly does love you is one thing, but saying you don't want to be loved by someone who just recently crawled out of a veritable grave with nothing but his thoughts of you mere moments after you see him again is quite another. Felicity needs to check her emotions at the door and come to it with a Buffy season 7 kind of vibe because that was some cold slab, morgue shit and it could have waited until midnight when the chariot turned back into a pumpkin and the rats ran away.

 

She did tell him she didn't want to talk to him. If he got the full weight of her emotional blowout because he insisted on going after her, that's on him. It's not like she knows she's the last thing he thought of before he died - we can't judge her for something she doesn't know about. I have zero issues with the way they wrote Felicity tonight, I think she was 100% in character. It would've played better if they'd given that scene a minute or two to breathe, but no. Can't have that. 

 

And I don't blame Felicity for not wanting to be someone Oliver loves at this point - he's got a real fucked-up understanding of what that means. He loves Thea so much he's willing to get into bed with Malcolm to get the training he'll need to HOPEFULLY defeat Ra's, all the while leaving her open and vulnerable to a guy who he knows is a liar, who he knows has no qualms about using her, who he knows has drugged her, who he knows has manipulated her, and he's just gonna...not tell her? This dude, I swear. I get where he's coming from, even though I think he's one of the biggest idiots to walk the earth. But I get where Felicity's coming from too. Oliver's teamed up with some terrible people, but none of those people have been responsible for framing his sister and manipulating events so that Oliver would take the fall for it. It's just a boneheaded move - he'd be better off calling Nyssa and playing her, but I guess she needs to be free to train Laurel at some point.

Edited February 5, 2015 by apinknightmare

[wonderwall]

Let me get this straight. People are saying that Malcolm is Oliver’s only hope in defeating Ra’s. Malcolm. A man who’s so terrified of Ra’s. A man who sends a boy out to do his own bidding in hopes that he’ll be successful. A man who can’t even beat Ra’s himself. Can help train Oliver to beat Ra’s? Where’s the logic in that? Not to mention that Malcolm is the person who got Oliver and Thea in this mess in the first place and the fact that he SO can’t be trusted…

 

And here people are reprimanding Felicity for being out of line by telling Oliver that his decision is stupid (which it is) when they should be reprimanding the writers for this shitty arc that makes no sense? All to make Malcolm look like the good guy? Wow. Okay. 

[slayer2]

I don't think he is forgiving him, but I do think he is trying to make him better for Thea, which feels like an attempt to at least partially redeem him.  Also, I can't see how he is manipulating Malcolm.  His plan is to get Malcolm, the student, train him so he can defeat the master.  Seems pretty straight forward.  

 

Well if Darth Vader can be redeemed, Angelus, Spike, Klaus Mikaelson (although personally that's a no for me) and any random member of the suicide squad then so can Malcolm Merlyn.  I think that's the point of not being a judge, jury and executioner. There's redemption for all those who seek it no matter what they've done and no matter the horrors they've inflicted on the world, if they truly are serious about being saved.

 

On the opposite side of the spectrum, if he can't even be civil with him for five seconds how the fuck is he going to train with him and why the fuck with Thea believe that they would train with each other? All other roads lead to telling the truth and we know how fuckers on this show feel about that....

 

apinknightmare You and I are never going to agree on any matter pertaining to Felicity, I feel like you will always defend her no matter what she does and never have a cross word for her and me I just can't get with that. I don't think any character on the show is above reproach and I've had some choice words for every single character at some point in time.

Edited February 5, 2015 by slayer2

[catrox14]

I think there is more to Oliver's decision than meets the eye. I'm giving him the benefit of doubt.

[apinknightmare]

And here people are reprimanding Felicity for being out of line by telling Oliver that his decision is stupid (which it is) when they should be reprimanding the writers for this shitty arc that makes no sense?

 

Right? And think about it...she didn't tell him she wouldn't help him. She didn't tell him she wouldn't work with him anymore. She never told him he was on his own. She merely told him that she didn't want to be a woman he loved. Like...half of these people complaining about her and calling her a bitch claim to hate the romance - congratulations, they put the kibosh on it for a bit. She did nothing other than tell him that if that's what love makes him do? She doesn't want any part of it.

Edited February 5, 2015 by apinknightmare

[formerlyfreedom]

Just a reminder - differences of opinion are allowed and welcome here, as long as it's civil and not an attack on a fellow poster; please keep in mind Our Social Contract.

 

Thanks!

[BkWurm1]

I can't see Felicity's point of view in that moment because if I'd just spent a month mourning my "dead" lover and he returned to me I would have nothing but tears, hugs, kissing and a whole lotta bow chicka wow wow for him. It wouldn't be well into the middle of the night after the reunion that I'd be scratching my head and shoving him and expressly forbidding his idea. Saying you don't want to be loved by someone who clearly does love you is one thing, but saying you don't want to be loved by someone who just recently crawled out of a veritable grave with nothing but his thoughts of you mere moments after you see him again is quite another.

 

The thing is, they are not lovers. Not in anything but the very loosest possible association of the word.  Even with Oliver telling her he loves her, he has done nothing to act on it.  As far as I could tell, for him, nothing has changed. 

 

Felicity mentions how she let herself dream that he'd come back and something would have changed and I didn't hear Oliver saying anything had.  His last words on the subject were to Cupid, that he couldn't allow himself that.  The only thing their relationship allowed her was that hug.  He's still the one that doesn't want it as far as any of us know.  Apparently his subconscious has thought about it and even then it was a disaster.  

 

Felicity has spent a month clinging to the ideals of this man she wholeheartedly believed in and IMO yes, loved too.  She returned to fight for those still living but that's something she had to know Oliver would do too.  In this episode Felicity was letting What Would Oliver Do sit on her shoulder and be her guide.  Roy mentions that Oliver wasn't there anymore but she was still looking to the qualities that made Oliver a man that put her faith and trust in. 

 

Working with Malcolm would have been a fix but at what cost to them morally, emotionally?  What further compromises might it have led to?  They had to keep fighting and find another way just like she wouldn't let Oliver stop fighting and wouldn't let him give up until he figured out a way to do the impossible. 

 

Her belief now in the Team seemed to have paid off.  They came up with a solution without using Malcolm.  The fight was rough but they won and even better, now Oliver is ALIVE! 

 

Ok, they are all a little bummed that he took so long to show up in person for real, but they stuck around until late in the night except for Laurel who I will be kind and assume went with Ted to the hospital (I assumed she had a spare pantsuit in the van).  So Oliver FINALLY is there and one of the first things out of his mouth wipes away all her faith and belief that she knew him and knew he wouldn't compromise, that he would gladly do the hard thing in order to do the right thing.

 

She thought she lost Oliver in death but now he is alive and it's like she's lost him all over again because he's not who she's been building him up to be.  In teaming with Malcolm, it's like he's given up and on top of all that, still nothing has changed.  All those quiet dreams that even death couldn't chase away were run off by Oliver being a greater disappointment in life than death. 

 

--Still, in real life this is nothing that a few very heartfelt conversations wouldn't fix if he'd only let her know that he had changed and did want things to be different between them.  She didn't quit the team and surely if he had changed his position on if she was a distraction or not, Oliver could find the words to make her understand his desperation and fear even if she still doesn't agree with his choice.  This would be true even if he did stick to his belief that being with her equals making him less able to fight. 

 

As it is now, he still wants to love her, but only from a far and he's seemingly abandoned some very hard fought principles that made him the man that she saw as a hero.  Love is just a word without action for him. Felicity has no reason to think she would fair better than his sister or Sara.  It's like what happened to Sara means nothing and at the same time he seems to be enabling the predator that is preying on his sister to worm his way further into her affection and trust. 

Edited February 5, 2015 by BkWurm1

[catrox14]

 

This show is no longer about Oliver's journey. That is what drew me so hard to Arrow. That seems to be gone now and is now an ensemble show which I find little interest in.

 

I feel like with this return we might be getting back to Oliver's journey. That's my hope anyway.

[Carrie Ann]

Yeah, I have been pretty vocal in my unhappiness with a lot of the writers' choices w/r/t Felicity/Olicity this season, but I really had no problem with that conversation. Other than the fact that I wish there had been two scenes: one nice, emotional reunion, and then the twist of the knife. But they stayed consistent and blew right past any emotional, character-based moments, just so their costumes could pose and speechify. I'm also sort of bitter that we didn't get more from Felicity before it went to shit again, because I think this was basically it until the finale or whenever they're allowed to get together. And I just wanted some verbalization from her--more than that "fantasized" thing, because that's still vague about how she feels or what she wants. (Not blaming her as a character--blaming the writers for not making it a priority to let her speak on this subject, at any point.)

 

Anyway, I'd be disappointed as hell if I were Felicity, and I don't blame her a bit for letting him have it there. He deserved it. I just wish they weren't making Oliver act so illogically. I really just don't buy this from him at this point. I wish I believed he was trying to con Merlyn, but I don't. And if he were, I think he'd let Felicity in on that plan.

 

And finally, "killing" Oliver was absolutely pointless for him as a character, and this episode proved that to me. They could have accomplished the same thing--making him so desperate that he would train with Merlyn--simply by writing a few lines to indicate that he knew he would lose in a duel against Ra's al Ghul. Otherwise, nothing else has changed for him since 309, it seems. So it's confirmed, for me: this was necessary only to develop other characters. I didn't notice any falling down or missed punches this episode, but Laurel sure paid her dues that one time, right? What a great character. What a great journey we're on.

Edited February 5, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[annaharris]

I can't emphasize this enough.  Oliver fought Malcolm and DEFEATED him in season 1.  So why would Oliver think that training with Malcolm would help him defeat Ra's?

 

I also don't buy this "only the student has a hope of defeating the teacher" B.S.  If that were true, Ra's would've been dead long ago.

I know. THIS. But then again, Ted Grant, who trains Laurel, had the crap beaten out of him. So, clearly, this show needs to find better trainers coz how are we supposed to believe anyone can actually fight?

[apinknightmare]

Positive: the way Oliver whispers "it's okay, I'm okay" as he hugs Felicity is KILLING. ME.

[annaharris]

Positive: the way Oliver whispers "it's okay, I'm okay" as he hugs Felicity is KILLING. ME.

And the way Felicity hesitates before she continues with "the woman you love" breaks my heart.

[lemotomato]

Well if Darth Vader can be redeemed, Angelus, Spike, Klaus Mikaelson (although personally that's a no for me) and any random member of the suicide squad then so can Malcolm Merlyn.  I think that's the point of not being a judge, jury and executioner. There's redemption for all those who seek it no matter what they've done and no matter the horrors they've inflicted on the world, if they truly are serious about being saved.

I think it's a matter of opinion whether those characters you listed were redeemed/deserved redemption or not. I don't think Malcom Merlyn has done anything so far to show that he wants to be redeemed. If he did, the first thing he would do is tell Thea exactly what he did to her, not keep lying and trying to convince her that he's being persecuted for no reason.