S03.E12: Uprising

[statsgirl]

There are many forms of death, Tatsu tells Oliver.  To defeat a man like this Ra's al Ghul you must be willing not just to die but what you have to sacrifice in order to defeat him..... It will be whatever you hold most precious.

 

This is the line that makes me okay with this plot twist in terms of the show although not in terms of Oliver who is being an idiot.  What he holds most precious is the hero that he could be, the guy who does the right thing because it's the right thing (to echo Diggle's words) and that's what he's going to lose by teaming up with Malcolm.

 

Oliver's 'no killing' rule is getting annoying. He should have let Malcolm take out Brick, maybe then Malcolm would have stopped his need to vengeance. With Brick still alive, it can't really be put to rest not even for Thea.

 

"Killing changes you. It takes away a piece of your soul and you can never get it back again."  Can Malcolm be a good guy again? I hope not.  I think Oliver is trying to save him.  Maybe so he can save himself.

 

I understand Oliver's position, he thinks he needs to team up with Malcolm because it's the only way to defeat Ra's.and for that he's willing to sacrifice his relationship with Felicity which may be what he thinks if important to him.

 

But after watching the episode, I see Felicity as the one who had the bigger shock.  When you're in love with someone, you see them in the best possible light (I think it's a necessary condition for being in love.)  Maybe if Oliver had spent a little more time with her before walking over to Diggle and Roy and dropping his bomb, she might have reacted differently.  But right now she's wondering who this person is that is Oliver Queen and was she wrong about him all along?

 

So kudos to the writers and the EPs because this is the one way I can accept Felicity looking towards Ray as a possible love interest -- if she's so disappointed that Oliver isn't the person she thought he was. She won't quit the team because they still need to save the city, but Oliver as a person is not the Oliver she fell in love with.  Stay tuned for all sorts of disillusionment.

 

Laurel to Ted Grant: "You're going to be fine."  Nice consistency, Laurel feels that she can't lose someone else she cares about.  Also, nicely done show, to account for the actor's absence while he's shooting his other show.

 

I like Jessica Breaux's reviews  (runs off to read it)

Edited February 5, 2015 by statsgirl

[BkWurm1]

Which IMO should be his first impulse. She's his sister, he's the only reliable family she has now in the world and she should come before Felicity. She was the whole reason he left in the first place, to take care of her so to me it makes sense that she's the first person he goes to. Secondly the speeches involved the Glades and being a hero and that should always come before Felicity as well

 

 

It's all about timing.  He shows up at the end of the battle and then hangs out (on top of a van?) for a fairly long period of time because we now have the police back in the glades and the bad guys being rounded up and he gives his speech which honestly felt a little unearned because it felt like his team and the citizens did all the work and he swooped in and got the glory and I don't even mind that but it wasn't essential for the victory.  It made everyone happy, but it felt out of character since it wasn't a spur of the moment speech but apparently one he doubled back on his own to make.  Then he apparently went back to the Foundry, changed out of his clothing, and THEN and only then went to see Thea.

 

It's a question of logistics and logic.   He's right there where by any normal timeline his team would have also been.  Logically, this is the moment when he should have gotten the brief heroes welcome before almost immediately going to see Thea, because yes, she's his sister and she shouldn't have to worry any longer than she had to (he could have also called to remove worry even sooner)  but since the show went and showed us anyway that he didn't go see her directly, why not do the happy reunion with the only people that thought he was dead, let that moment breath and then come back to drop the Malcolm bomb on them? 

 

 

 

. This is only one of the reasons why I think Felicity could never hold a candle to Chloe Sullivan. Chloe always understood that the mission was what mattered and more than sacrificing herself for Oliver or Clark she sacrificed herself for the mission and because she knew that the lives of millions outweighed the lives of few. Felicity should darnwell be able to wait a few hours while Oliver address the implosion going on in the Glades before he comes back to talk to her about their collective feelings. His role as a hero should come first.

 

Is that a fair assessment of Felicity?  She did darnwell wait a few hours while Oliver made his speech, connected with Thea, presumably had tea with Malcolm.  She did put the mission ahead of her life, it is her life.  She had one week were she wavered but before and after that one week, she was the one keeping the team going when everyone else had given up.  As for sacrificing herself for the mission, I have to say Felicity more than earned that accolade when she let herself be used as bait/Trojan horse against Slade. 

 

Chloe and Felicity understood about making sacrifices for the mission but Chloe was the first one to tell Cark when he was being an idiot and she did not shy away from it even when it put her in huge conflict with him.  In season 9 Clark wasn't even civil to Chloe most of the year and it took people like Amanda Waller to point out how big an idiot he was being and eventually Clark told Chloe all the things he'd been mad about and resenting that she was doing were the right things to do (though he never bothered to tell anyone else in their group that, grr).  I have no doubt that Chloe would have tore Clark a new one if he decided to work with Zod, oh wait, she did. 

[poetgirl925]

Well. So that happened. The plots are now driving the characters like this season is the final lap of the Indy 500. Roy has apparently lost his mind. I mean, he's never been that bright, but the level of stupid he sank to with his speech about Malcolm was cringeworthy. At least Thea has the excuse of being lied to by literally everyone in her life, but Roy knows everything - he knows what Malcolm did to Thea and Sara. He lost friends in the Undertaking. WTF with his "Malcolm cares about people" speech.

Laurel wants to team up with Malcolm. Why? " Because I'm actually paying attention!" No - no you're not. But thanks for playing, Fauxnary. Please pick up your buckle suit on the way out and leave the decision making to people who know what the hell they're talking about. What a sad, sad state of affairs when the special forces trained soldier is sidelined to make room for her nonsense. Is this going to happen in every episode now? I am not here for the Roy and Laurel sideshow. This show needs to get their freaking act together because I was hoping Brick was going to take them out before Malcolm intervened. Has no one told Laurel what Malcolm did with Thea and Sara? Has this chick never bothered to find out WHY Oliver went to fight Ra's? I know she just skimmed right over that a couple episodes ago (because Laurel and rational thought /basic reasoning skills don't seem to mix) but I kind of thought she'd want to know at some point. It's been a month - a month! So Sara's death was just a convenient plot point, easily forgotten? WTF. And if she does know and still wants to work with Malcolm? Again, WTF. This is the "big mystery" they used Sara's death to set up? Ugh.

Ted Grant returned just to die? Is he dead? That's what it looked like. What a freaking stupid waste of a great comic character. But hey, he gave Laurel a few months of boxing lessons, so his work is done. It sounded like he hadn't even seen her in a while, so who the hell has she been training with? Roy? Arsenal is training Black Canary? The part of me that loves comics died a little at this realization. And somewhere in the comic universe, the real Dinah Lance is probably busy trying to change her name so she can deny any connection to this farcical Black Canary arc.

Malcolm does not deserve a redemption arc now - not after what he did to Thea and Sara. Characters with more redemptive qualities have died, like Moira and Sara, but he gets a pass? The writers better be building to a "Gotcha!" moment here - one that involves his downfall.

Sin = FTW. I'm so glad someone finally told Lance that's not Sara. I noticed his pills showed up again, so I guess his heart condition is like Laurel's drug problem - there when it's convenient.

Diggle and Felicity = Always FTW. They just need their own show.

Felicity telling Oliver "Nope! So done!" = FTW. That was quite a truth bomb she dropped on him. I don't think it makes her naive at all, and I thought it was in character for her. She and Diggle have always felt uncomfortable crossing certain lines, and I'm glad they circled back to that in this episode. I just hope it doesn't send her running to Ray, but of course it probably will because this is the CW.

I don't know if I can watch next week's episode. The writing is so horrible now the episodes are painful to watch, and nothing makes sense. Maybe Katana will show up to kick Merlyn's ass? I'd tune in for that.

[Shanna]

But the logic of all her argument wrt Oliver come from her emotions. She never spoke to Diggle or Roy that way even though they've made decisions she hasn't agreed with.

Just because the arguments were delivered in an emotional way does not mean they were not logical. They were. They were articulated by Diggle earlier in the episode.

I actually think Moira is cold-blooded and practical enough that she would have thrown in with Malcolm, all while planning to snipe him after he outlived his usefulness. If it turns out that is what Ollie is doing, then kudos.

I am really really hoping this is the case but i don't know that I trust the writers. I hopedThea was playing Malcolm too...best case scenario involves siblings teaming up I think.

It's all about timing. He shows up at the end of the battle and then hangs out (on top of a van?) for a fairly long period of time because we now have the police back in the glades and the bad guys being rounded up and he gives his speech which honestly felt a little unearned because it felt like his team and the citizens did all the work and he swooped in and got the glory and I don't even mind that but it wasn't essential for the victory. It made everyone happy, but it felt out of character since it wasn't a spur of the moment speech but apparently one he doubled back on his own to make. Then he apparently went back to the Foundry, changed out of his clothing, and THEN and only then went to see Thea.

It's a question of logistics and logic. He's right there where by any normal timeline his team would have also been. Logically, this is the moment when he should have gotten the brief heroes welcome before almost immediately going to see Thea, because yes, she's his sister and she shouldn't have to worry any longer than she had to (he could have also called to remove worry even sooner) but since the show went and showed us anyway that he didn't go see her directly, why not do the happy reunion with the only people that thought he was dead, let that moment breath and then come back to drop the Malcolm bomb on them?

Thank you. That's what I was getting at. I don't care if he goes to see his sister but the timing of it felt off and I thought like you that the speech was unearned. But my other point was that felicity had a lot of time to realize Oliver was alive before their scene went down, so even though I think my first comment was that the scene needs time to breathe, I still think felicity herself had enough time to process Oliver being back to also think logically about his dumbass plan. Edited February 5, 2015 by Shanna

[statsgirl]

Just because the arguments were delivered in an emotional way does not mean they were not logical. They were. They were articulated by Diggle earlier in the episode.

I am really really hoping this is the case but i don't know that I trust the writers. I hopedThea was playing Malcolm too...best case scenario involves siblings teaming up I think.

Felicity is about the mission, just as Diggle is.  But they were also aware that you can lose your soul in the mission, or die as Tatsu put it earlier.  All three (Tatsu, Felicity, Diggle) were making the same point, that the cost may be huge, and for Diggle and Felicity, it's not worth the cost to lose your soul.  This was echoed by Malcolm who said that killing makes you lose a piece of yourself you can never get back. For Diggle and Felicity, teaming up with a mass murderer will do that too.

 

I had hope that Thea was playing Malcolm but I don't think that's the case any more.  At this point, both Thea and Oliver, along with Roy, want to believe that there is still goodness in him.  I think what's going to happen is that they will both learn that he's gone too far down the path to be redeemed and he'll die a heroes death saving someone.

 

Because Felicity got emotional and Diggle didn't doesn't mean their logic was wrong.

 

Laurel wants to team up with Malcolm. Why? " Because I'm actually paying attention!" No - no you're not. But thanks for playing, Fauxnary.

Thank you. That's the reason the four shouldn't have equal votes with each other, much less with Oliver now that he's back.

 

Laurel's always gone for the short term outlook rather than the long term one.  Sometimes it's useful (getting people in the Glades to fight)(and shouldn't they have had guns too?), sometimes it's not.

[BkWurm1]

I

actually think Moira is cold-blooded and practical enough that she would have thrown in with Malcolm, all while planning to snipe him after he outlived his usefulness. If it turns out that is what Ollie is doing, then kudos.

 

I still honestly can't figure out in what way could Oliver be playing Malcolm.  The options seem limited to convincing Malcolm to take the fight against Ra's but why would Oliver think Malcolm would win over what Oliver could do?  So far Oliver's plan seems very straight up and clear.  He wants Malcolm to train him.  I don't expect Oliver to pretend he suddenly thinks Malcolm is a great guy nor do I think Malcolm would believe it if Oliver did.  As for getting rid of him after his usefulness is done, as long as Thea is around, I think Oliver will leave Malcolm alone.    

Edited February 5, 2015 by BkWurm1

[Shanna]

I

I still honestly can't figure out in what way could Oliver be playing Malcolm. The options seem limited to convincing Malcolm to take the fight against Ra's but why would Oliver think Malcolm would win over what Oliver could do? So far Oliver's plan seems very straight up and clear. He wants Malcolm to train him. I don't expect Oliver to pretend he suddenly thinks Malcolm is a great guy nor do I think Malcolm would believe it if Oliver did. As for getting rid of him after his usefulness is done, as long as Thea is around, I think Oliver will leave Malcolm alone.

Aside from convincingly Merlin to sacrifice himself to Ra's for Thea, the only thing I could think of is if Oliver learns from Merlin and then takes out Merlin and delivers him to Ra's as Sara's killer. And I don't think he would do that without Thea's permission. Of course it would also make him a "killer" I guess. So I don't know. I know I hate this plan and that felicity and Diggle are on point though!

[InsertWordHere]

Just because the arguments were delivered in an emotional way does not mean they were not logical. They were. They were articulated by Diggle earlier in the episode.

Her argument is logical. However, the difference between the two situations is that neither Diggle or Felicity got personal when they disagreed with Laurel and Roy. They didn't question Roy's love for Thea or his friends in the Glades when he wanted to team up with Malcolm to bring down Brick and say if that's how he treats his friends' memories then they don't want to be friends with him. They didn't imply that Laurel was insulting Tommy's memory by working with his murderer to stop another murderer. Maybe they should have, but the situations aren't the same because they didn't go there with Laurel and Roy but Felicity went there with Oliver. Which I like, because Oliver needed to hear it, and Felicity and Oliver's relationship is different than the ones shared by Felicity and Diggle with Laurel and Roy.

 

At the same time, Brick didn't run Laurel and Roy through with a sword and push them off a cliff. I guess I just find Oliver's decision to work with Malcolm to take Ra's down to be more justifiable than Laurel and Roy's desire to work with Malcolm to defeat Brick. I wish the show had given us more proof that working with Malcolm is necessary, but I can't fault the characters for acting as if it is. Oliver is clearly supposed to believe that Malcolm is his only hope to defeat Ra's and save the more immediate threat to Thea's life, because Tatsu said so in a roundabout way. I also don't think Oliver's decision about Malcolm is proof that things wouldn't have been different between Felicity and Oliver after his return, but I get why Felicity feels that way. 

 

I must say, as much as I dislike the way that Oliver took Tatsu's advice, I love how much he values her opinion. I just want Tatsu to come to town and train Oliver, while telling the team all about his inability to do his own laundry when she met him.  

[Starfish35]

If they made Tatsu a regular next season, I might just have to start watching again in spite of everything.

[AES13]

What I'm most upset about is that my primary emotions on watching this episode were apathy and disappointment.  I did actually sit through all of Smallville's 10 year run, 5 years passed when I should have stopped, and I recognize that I will keep watching this show despite its nonsensical plot lines and OOC writing.  I am no longer confident that it will be a an enthralling experience but hey, I still watch Supernatural, so I guess I'm used to just gritting my teeth and hanging on to the bitter end in hopes of getting a few decent moments each season.

 

I can't emphasize enough how critically important it is in a genre show (supernatural, science fiction, superhero types) that your characters behave like human beings.  I can suspend my disbelief for lots of outlandish things (Mirakuru, Kryptonite, the Flash, vampires and werewolves, oh my!) but if I can't believe that a reasonable person would behave the way they're portrayed, you've lost me.  I'm not saying they can't be stupid human beings but the contortions necessary in Oliver's thinking to make teaming up with Malcolm a necessary or wise thing to do are unbelievable.  It is that kind of writing, not the superhero bits, that are hobbling this show and stopping it from becoming anything more than a somewhat pleasant way to waste an hour.

[romantic idiot]

Felicity was harsh. I'm glad she was harsh. She's fighting for her man's soul - she'd jolly well better have been harsh, because really that's the only way to get through to Oliver. He's too hardened to feel a soft touch now. He doesn't even let the hug linger. 

 

Oliver should check on Thea, partly because she is his sister and partly because she's hanging out with Malcolm.  But it's made more problematic that this whole mess happened because Thea was making bad decisions. Had she not joined forces with Malcolm, he couldn't have brainwashed her and Oliver wouldn't have needed to fight Ra's.  So the rightness of Oliver's need to make sure she's okay is weakened by her actions.

Especially because the reason she wasn't safe is because she was throwing a tantrum and abandoning Oliver, and even then, he'd have been there for her, if she wasn't supposed to be out of the way already. Zero sympathy for Thea in this because she knowingly went with Merlyn in the first place. 

[XtremeOne1]

I think it's a bit far-fetched to say, "This is Thea's fault".

 

If everyone hadn't lied to her, she wouldn't have felt the need to go to her 'father'...Roy and Oliver kept everything from her to 'protect'(because lying is always protecting) so going back to that, it's Oliver and Roy's fault...but going further back it's Malcom's fault for starting all this in the first place.

[jay741982]

I fucking LOVED Felicity sitting like a Godfather in her chair in the Arrowcave while the other 3 stood next to her while her and Malcolm talked! Whoever said Malcolm knew who the leader was is spot on! I was like "that's my woman!" The hug between Oliver and Felicity got me with the feels then Oliver being a blockhead angering his lady love by working with a Pyscho :( . Poor Felicity she was so hurt confused and pissed at him. I have to give MG credit it was good angst yet I'm so tired of all this angst. If these two would communicate like they used too. Oliver needs to spill about why he's training with Malcolm and that Felicity was his dying though. He's being an idiot yet he wants to protect His sister and the woman he loves more than anything and now Felicity is so fed up with being jerked around. UGH I don't want Raylicity please please please make it stop.

[silversauce]

I can't believe the thing coming between Oliver and Felicity is Malcom fucking Merlyn. God. Forced with a capital F.

 

This episode was meh, confusing, and overall the idea of Malcolm as a good guy when he just recently destroyed half of the glades and killed hundreds of people is sickening. I was rolling over in my grave (and I'm not even dead yet) when Roy was spouting that 'he loves this city he just went about showing it in the wrong way.' Oh please. He saves Thea so now he gets a 'I didn't kill hundreds out of rage and vengeance' card. Not to mention he killed Sara. It's way too soon; if he was going to be redeemed it should be after going through fire and brimstone, not just because he gets a glowing endorsement from Thea. Felicity's right, he doesn't deserve forgiveness. Unfortunately, not deserving forgiveness does not equate to not working with him. Unfortunately. Overall I don't like the direction this season is taking... actually I'm starting to think shipping Ollie off to fight Ra's was a bad idea too. They should have focused more on Sara's death instead of having the main character 'die' a few episodes later. It kind of undermined her importance. And don't even get me started on the fact that Laurel was conveniently gone when Oliver returned to the cave...

 

The best part of this episode was when Oliver showed up in his Arrow costume. So nice to see him rocking it again. And Oliver/Tatsu was great. Other than that, nothing feels urgent in the show right now and it seems like the writers are just floundering to manufacture any kind of drama--the fact that it is nonsensical notwithstanding.

Edited February 6, 2015 by silversauce

[silversauce]

Also all the grandstanding and side taking with Oliver and Felicity is really annoying. First people hate on Felicity, then some Felicity lovers feel the need to be defensive and hate on Oliver to shift blame. Maybe it's both of their faults. Maybe Felicity should have kept on walking and shouldn't have said a word until she cooled off and maybe Oliver shouldn't have followed. Maybe Oliver is making a controversial choice prematurely out of desperation. And maybe Felicity spoke too passionately and took things too personally. Maybe they should have both focused on the fact that they were together again and worried about biting each other's heads off at a more appropriate time. Maybe instead of killing Sara, they should have killed Merlyn. God. 

Edited February 6, 2015 by silversauce

[statsgirl]

I think it's a bit far-fetched to say, "This is Thea's fault".

 

If everyone hadn't lied to her, she wouldn't have felt the need to go to her 'father'...Roy and Oliver kept everything from her to 'protect'(because lying is always protecting) so going back to that, it's Oliver and Roy's fault...but going further back it's Malcom's fault for starting all this in the first place.

One thing that's been consistent about Thea is that when she's pissed off, she goes off on a tangent and ignores coherent thought.  It's not all her fault but this is the Thea who refused to speak to her mother for months because of her complicity in the Undertaking.  Roy was wrong for lying to her going off with the mass murderer who is her biological father, who murdered the man she knew as her father for most of her life and caused the deaths of 503 people, is a bone-headed thing to do. And then she lied to Oliver about it for months, not to protect Oliver (which was his reason for lying to her) but to protect Malcolm.

 

Now she's ignoring Malcolm's actions and painting him like a good guy because he saved her when the mirakuru soldiers attacked and Roy had run off. Sorry, Thea, Roy was busy trying to save the city as you now know.  Malcolm was just in it for his own agenda, to get you on his side.

 

I had high hopes for Thea at the start of this season but she's really still all me! me! me!

 Maybe it's both of their faults. Maybe Felicity should have kept on walking and shouldn't have said a word until she cooled off and maybe Oliver shouldn't have followed. Maybe Oliver is making a controversial choice prematurely out of desperation. And maybe Felicity spoke too passionately and took things too personally. Maybe they should have both focused on the fact that they were together again and worried about biting each other's heads off at a more appropriate time. Maybe instead of killing Sara, they should have killed Merlyn. God. 

Maybe Oliver should have taken 5 seconds to tell Felicity that he came back for her instead of "we didn't have cellphone reception" and then leaving her to walk to Diggle and Roy and drop his bomb.  Felicity was riding a rollercoaster of emotions seeing him back and then hearing that he was going to team up with the man who brainwashed Thea to kill Sara.  On Saving Hope this season, when Alex got out of the coma, she left behind her love for Charlie. Maybe Oliver left behind his brain in the snow.

 

I blame MG for not letting them have any time to be happy.

[apinknightmare]

Also all the grandstanding and side taking with Oliver and Felicity is really annoying. First people hate on Felicity, then some Felicity lovers feel the need to be defensive and hate on Oliver to shift blame. Maybe it's both of their faults. Maybe Felicity should have kept on walking and shouldn't have said a word until she cooled off and maybe Oliver shouldn't have followed. Maybe Oliver is making a controversial choice prematurely out of desperation. And maybe Felicity spoke too passionately and took things too personally. Maybe they should have both focused on the fact that they were together again and worried about biting each other's heads off at a more appropriate time. Maybe instead of killing Sara, they should have killed Merlyn. God.

I get both sides here. I understand why Felicity's upset, and I understand why Oliver thinks he needs to do what he's doing. I think Oliver is pretty consistently a dumbass when it comes to protecting the people he loves and I find that oddly endearing, but I really don't understand how he can jump in with both feet with Merlyn to do whatever he has to do to keep Thea safe from Ra's while leaving her completely exposed to Merlyn, considering he, you know, drugged her and made her kill someone. The secret keeping on the show is ridiculous. Edited February 6, 2015 by apinknightmare

[La Dee Da]

 What was it Malcolm said when he was about to kill Brick? Did he really say that if he had killed Brick all those years ago, then none of these things would have happened?

That was my first reaction but then I thought maybe he was saying that his choices and his development didn't have meaning if he didn't kill the right guy at the start - that he didn't begin as an avenger (hahaha...I'm leaving that in, sorry other comic company)?   I don`t think that will deter him from pursuing his end game - which I assume is getting Oliver to weaken Ra`s so he can (1) swoop in and drain the Lazarus Pit, (2) kill Ra`s, (3) take over the League, and (4) evil laugh, evil laugh, scoffs at the team`s/Thea`s thoughts that he had changed.

 

She told [Quentin] that the Canary is "not Sara." That's not the same as confirming for him that his daughter is dead. In fact, it's worse, because now he has to deal with the uncertainty, of wondering what happened to Sara and why she's not here and if she's alive or dead, and who is responsible, and dealing with his suspicion of the people around him.

 

Yeah, the sleuthing he is going to do to figure this out is going to excruciating.  He can`t assume the new Canary is just a copycat as she knows enough to pass herself off as his daughter.  He also knows Team Arrow is working with her and was comfortable implying and saying that it is Sara.  So the group of people who could be passing themselves off as the Canary is extremely small, and his allies were willing to lie to him.  Does he reach the appropriate conclusions after talking with Team Arrow and then pour out his grief to Laurel, not knowing her role in this?  Eeeeeeesh - I might watch that part from another room!

 

I can see Felicity being distracted/sad enough to not realize Malcolm had hacked into her system (MAYBE), BUT THERE WAS A HUGE LENS RIGHT ON HER COMPUTER, ARE YOU TELLING ME SHE DIDN'T SEE THAT? Did grief make her blind? Ugh, the plot stupid. It hurts. I wonder if that's something that's going to be addressed or if the cameras are going to come back into play Slade-style at some point?

 

I was wondering the same - maybe she figures it out (probably Malcolm evil monologues about something he saw) and then reverse spies on him/piggybacks the link to send a virus/some techy comeuppance. 

 

Also, I forgot to say this in my last post - welcome back, Oliver.  You were missed, self-destructive decision-making and all. 

[romantic idiot]

I think it's a bit far-fetched to say, "This is Thea's fault".

 

If everyone hadn't lied to her, she wouldn't have felt the need to go to her 'father'...Roy and Oliver kept everything from her to 'protect'(because lying is always protecting) so going back to that, it's Oliver and Roy's fault...but going further back it's Malcom's fault for starting all this in the first place.

Honestly, she was lied to, but really, most people are. It's the most prevalent "sin". Thea took drugs and drove under the influence. I don't think she gets a moral high ground about 'secrets and lies'. Lana at least, in the beginning was self centred but a genuine innocent. And now I'm going to go kill myself for using Lana effing Lang as a positive comparison. *gags*

 

Also, I forgot to say this in my last post - welcome back, Oliver.  You were missed, self-destructive decision-making and all. 

 

This.

[dcinmb]

I wish they'd move. I can see Felicity being distracted/sad enough to not realize Malcolm had hacked into her system (MAYBE), BUT THERE WAS A HUGE LENS RIGHT ON HER COMPUTER, ARE YOU TELLING ME SHE DIDN'T SEE THAT? Did grief make her blind? Ugh, the plot stupid. It hurts. I wonder if that's something that's going to be addressed or if the cameras are going to come back into play Slade-style at some point?

 

I just assumed Malcolm had hacked into her monitor's built-in webcam.

 

Random thoughts:

 

Was I the only one cringing when the Arrow started speechifying from the top of the bus/truck/platform? I know I was supposed to find it triumphant and inspirational but I just found it cheesy.

 

Oliver's still unable to come up with a good cover story but it doesn't seem to matter since Thea's apparently still under the influence of Malcolm's magical herbs. Or maybe they just don't have phones in Bludhaven, which is why he didn't use his one phone call to call Thea, the family lawyer, anyone. Snap out of it, Thea!! (Did anyone else notice that before JB sits down on Thea's sofa, you can see SA standing on the other side of the glass doors waiting to come in?)

 

I was torn between Team Oliver and Team Felicity until Oliver started trying to marginalize Felicity by mansplaining her feelings with his infuriating "That's not why you're upset" and "Things between us, you mean." I kept waiting for Felicity to come back with "Get over yourself, Oliver. This is about so much more than just you and me!"

[apinknightmare]

I just assumed Malcolm had hacked into her monitor's built-in webcam.

 

Marc Guggenheim said on Tumblr that Malcolm planted the camera, which I suppose is supposed to not make her look incompetent, since Malcolm wouldn't have had to hack into her system in order to see/hear them, but then they had to go and put a huge spy cam right in her line of sight. C'mon, girl.

I'm glad they didn't go with the hacked route, because no MIT grad (or anyone with common sense, really) would be stupid enough to bring any kind of camera down into a base for illegal activities, haha.

[tv echo]

I'm not sure that Oliver went to Thea's loft first (before going to the Arrowcave) just to see his sister.  A few reviews I read theorized that Oliver left to go fight Ra's, but the Arrow came back.  Maybe he went to Thea's loft first because he knew Malcolm went there after the fight and he wanted to establish first that Malcolm would train him.  Then he went to the Arrowcave to touch base with his team.  Although I'm sure the Oliver part of him was still glad to see them all, the Arrow would be rather cold-bloodedly getting his ducks all in order.

 

More clarifications from MG about this episode:

sinceriouslyshipping asked:
A lot of us have been wondering, why is it that Brick wanted to take over the Glades? It's the worst part of town, so wouldn't he want to go after a better area? As far as I know, there was never an explanation given for this.

He’s a criminal, not a real estate developer.  He saw the Glades as his power base.

killersmoak asked:
You once stated that the Oliver/Felicity confrontation at the end of "Uprising" was one of your most favorite moments of the series. Apart from the fact that it was devastating for both Oliver and Felicity as characters, could you explain why it's one of your favorites?
I just found it to be very emotional.  It’s rare for us to end an episode on a character beat like that one as opposed to some big plot twist.  I liked the fact that this was just a powerful scene with two characters.

http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/

Edited February 6, 2015 by tv echo

[dtissagirl]

I'm having a hard time buying the entire motivation behind Oliver's decision, because it looks so self-serving. Oliver comes back and makes a big speech to the citizens that he's back to protect the city. That part I get -- they've hammered on that the masked vigilantes are ~a symbol~ that keeps the crooks like Brick away. So yay, he's back.

 

But Oliver's alignment with Malcolm has to do with protecting himself [and Malcolm] from Ra's. Thea too, sure, but right now Ra's has no idea about Thea's involvement, other than her being Malcolm's daugther [thanks for telling Nyssa, Oliver, you're so super smart!]. So if there's no twist coming, Oliver's idea here is he has to kill Ra's before Ra's kills him. So he's getting Malcolm to train him.

 

1. What about the no-kill rule?

 

2. And what about the city? Is Oliver leaving the protecting of Starling City to Roy and Laurel while he's getting his PhD in killing Ra's from Malcolm? Didn't he just have to end the West Side Story reenactment himself, because Team Arrowless was taking a pathetic beating?

 

3. If Oliver graduates and kills Ra's, then what? He's the new LoA head? Does he give the LoA to Malcolm as thanks for all the teaching?

 

And what about Nyssa? Does Oliver kill her too in this scenario? Does she avenge her father by killing someone close to Oliver? Although silly me, wondering about Nyssa's motivations. El oh el, as if they care.

 

 

It's all convoluted because reasons. The reasons being the EPs want MOAR JOHN BARROWMAN, and because they have another 11 episodes to fill, so this is the time of the season when everyone turns really really supid, and everyone stops talking to each other about anything, because the time to start talking is episode 18, not 12.

[Shanna]

Was I the only one cringing when the Arrow started speechifying from the top of the bus/truck/platform? I know I was supposed to find it triumphant and inspirational but I just found it cheesy.

No.

I get both sides here. I understand why Felicity's upset, and I understand why Oliver thinks he needs to do what he's doing. I think Oliver is pretty consistently a dumbass when it comes to protecting the people he loves and I find that oddly endearing, but I really don't understand how he can jump in with both feet with Merlyn to do whatever he has to do to keep Thea safe from Ra's while leaving her completely exposed to Merlyn, considering he, you know, drugged her and made her kill someone. The secret keeping on the show is ridiculous.

Yes. Just because I think Oliver is being a dumbass with this Merlin thing and with felicity and with Thea (and probably some other stuff I'm forgetting) doesn't mean I don't love him. I adore Oliver truly, but being an idiot about stuff at times is kind of a character trait!

Hell I even love him in Hong Kong, dumb wigs and all ;)

[apinknightmare]

I'm having a hard time buying the entire motivation behind Oliver's decision, because it looks so self-serving. Oliver comes back and makes a big speech to the citizens that he's back to protect the city. That part I get -- they've hammered on that the masked vigilantes are ~a symbol~ that keeps the crooks like Brick away. So yay, he's back.

 

But Oliver's alignment with Malcolm has to do with protecting himself [and Malcolm] from Ra's. Thea too, sure, but right now Ra's has no idea about Thea's involvement, other than her being Malcolm's daugther [thanks for telling Nyssa, Oliver, you're so super smart!]. So if there's no twist coming, Oliver's idea here is he has to kill Ra's before Ra's kills him. So he's getting Malcolm to train him.

 

1. What about the no-kill rule?

 

I thought maybe the no-kill rule was going out the window when Felicity encouraged him to kill Ra's and he replied that he honestly didn't know if he was a killer anymore (like, why would he not know that? He hadn't killed anyone since the Count and made a pretty big fucking deal about that, and he talked Laurel down when she wanted to kill Komodo when she thought he killed Sara), but then he comes back and tells Malcolm "no more death." Unless Oliver's still open to killing people because reasons, but he wants Malcolm to be better for Thea which...what? Know how you all could be better for Thea? BY LETTING HER KNOW HER FATHER DRUGGED HER. 

 

It does not compute.

Edited February 6, 2015 by apinknightmare

[tv echo]

A few reviews I read criticized Felicity for her stance with Oliver at the end of this episode when she had encouraged him to kill Ra's before he left to go fight him.  However, I remember that MG had said that when Felicity told Oliver to kill Ra's, that was an OOC (out of character) moment for her - presumably because she wanted Oliver to live and return.  When in character, Felicity doesn't want Oliver to lose his soul through relentless killing.

Edited February 6, 2015 by tv echo

[apinknightmare]

A few reviews I read criticized Felicity for her stance with Oliver at the end of this episode when she had encouraged him to kill Ra's before he left to go fight him.  However, I remember that MG had said that when Felicity told Oliver to kill Ra's, that was an OOC (out of character) moment for her - presumably because she wanted Oliver to live and return.  When in character, Felicity doesn't want Oliver to lose his soul through relentless killing.

 

Felicity's always been a little wishy-washy with her stance on death. She didn't have an issue signing on with Oliver when he was killing people, but she didn't think that everyone who did bad things deserved to die (like the guy with the son she didn't want orphaned in the Dodger episode). It always seemed to me she stuck firmly to the no-killing rule because Oliver wanted so badly not to be a killer anymore. Maybe that wasn't the writers' intent, since they thought her telling Oliver to kill Ra's was OOC for her. I didn't get that at all in that scene. Hadn't she previously encouraged Oliver to kill Slade when he had Thea by telling him to "do whatever it takes?" Maybe I misread that as well.

[Shanna]

I don't think there is anything wrong with being "wishy washy"about a no kill rule. Killing everybody is dumb (and the moral implication are problematic obviously), refusing to kill anybody even if they are going to kill you or everyone you know is dumb too. The way I read felicity is that killing should be avoided where possible. With Ra's I guess they didn't think it was possible, because they had to protect Thea (I think that's dumb but that's besides the point).

But I don't see how any of that is relevant this episode since they weren't talking about killing Merlin, they were talking about teaming up with him! That's a different thing. Even he weren't a killer, he's crazy and unreliable and for those reasons alone they should be wary.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Shanna

[SmallScreenDiva]

Felicity's always been a little wishy-washy with her stance on death. She didn't have an issue signing on with Oliver when he was killing people, but she didn't think that everyone who did bad things deserved to die (like the guy with the son she didn't want orphaned in the Dodger episode). It always seemed to me she stuck firmly to the no-killing rule because Oliver wanted so badly not to be a killer anymore. Maybe that wasn't the writers' intent, since they thought her telling Oliver to kill Ra's was OOC for her. I didn't get that at all in that scene. Hadn't she previously encouraged Oliver to kill Slade when he had Thea by telling him to "do whatever it takes?" Maybe I misread that as well.

 

I'm not sure wishy-washy is the word I'd use to describe her stance. In fact, I think she has a pretty clear-cut idea on who should or should not be killed. People like Slade and Ra's fall under her kill list, the larcenous dad in Dodger doesn't. And note that the two times she'd advocated killing, it was to save lives: Thea's when Slade kidnapped her (I don't think they knew that she wasn't truly in danger), and Oliver's when he faced Ra's in a duel to the death. So she makes exceptions, which makes sense to me because I think Felicity is pretty pragmatic. She supports Oliver's no-kill rule because she knows what it means to Oliver to honor Tommy's memory. I've always taken those scenes where she tells Oliver to kill as partly sharing in the responsibility so Oliver doesn't have to carry the burden alone.

[apinknightmare]

I'm not sure wishy-washy is the word I'd use to describe her stance. 

 

Yeah, it's not the best word. You described what I meant - I just don't think it's a hard and fast no for her like it Oliver wants it to be for himself.

[kismet]

Gosh 6 Pages! Im excited to read what everyone has to say/think! I wanna say a few things though before my mind gets full with everyone's thoughts. I was truly impressed that MG pulled off the line about a woman you love. I must admit, I always thought it would be Felicity, but I never saw it working. So I tried to imagine other people saying it and so made it work some didn't. I must admit I also never wanted it to be F saying it, esp because I couldn't see them making it work that wasn't OOC or too sappy/romantic. But MG & ERB managed to make it probably the most in character line esp re: Oliver that she's had in awhile. I was on my couch rooting for her. What I loved most about it, is that it made her a strong, fierce, intelligent woman. In no way did her line diminish her femininity or her strength. It did not put his love for Thea or Sara down, rather she tried to make him see that his choices were not honoring them, which is a beautiful sentiment in a world where girl-on-girl hate to promote your position has become so popular. I hope the show can hold onto that feeling for a little bit. Like I've always wanted to believe there is enough room in the Arrowverse for multiple strong women, they shouldn't have to compete for plot, time or lines. The line was spot on, I think a lot of that had to do with ERB's delivery of the line. But still I was impressed, because my expectations were that it was not gonna go over at all & instead she knocked it out of the park. I know some people are upset about it, but I think it was perfectly in line for F to say what she said. I understand that Oliver feels that he has no other options, and maybe he doesn't - but I think he should have had the decency to talk it over with F & Diggle before he decides to make a deal with the devil. MM is evil & I know Roy gave that speech, but Im not buying it. MM always thinks about himself first, so in the end regardless of any deals or relationships he had, MM has proven time and time again that he will prioritize his survival over all else. He did is with Rebecca, Tommy, Thea, Oliver, the list goes on. So how O can think its a good idea to partner with him without discussing it with his closest friends/partners I have no idea. I want to save Thea, but I think its warranted to discuss all options. I also have never come back from the dead, but I would like to think that if I did I would want to check in with the people I care about before I make life altering decisions & alliances.

 

I do believe that she was upset about how Oliver handled his return in regards to them. But I think it had more to do with him not choosing himself, and less about him not choosing her. Yes, I think it hurts her that he chose to darker path for the Arrow over her. But what hurts her most is that he is choosing to walk away from what she believes is his true self, his principles, all the progress he made since S1 to return to humanity. That is what is driving her anger at the moment, not that she was passed over again. If you watch the scene, he is the one that turns the conversation to "us", not her. He's the one that forces her into the line. She was not inappropriately angry or mad at him. She was very happy that he returned, just look at the impact of her hug. About the only thing he didn't deserve was the passive aggressive "glad ur not dead" line, but then again I feel like I might have said/done something very similar in the heat of the moment. He made his choice to unilaterally change the course of his journey. He decided that he would train with MM, without any consideration of what that means for those around him. His reason may be valid, but because he bypassed having a conversation to explain them, how else would he think F would respond? The end justifies the means is a pretty dark slippery slope. Like Diggle told MM, its a step closer to becoming MM, not to being a hero. Maybe he thought F wouldn't mind because before he left she told him to kill Ras. Maybe he thought he was just doing everything to fulfill that request. But I think its a little misguided of him to think that F would approve of this choice without even the briefest of discussions of options or alternative strategies. I don't know... that scene broke my heart looking at Oliver's face when he realized so much of what he might have been wrong about. SA was just amazing in it. It's no wonder people tended to want to feel bad for him, how could you not with his face like that? But in the end, I was so pumped for ERB because you really sold the scene. I really saw her character grow triplefold in that scene. She's gone from being the audience's voice in the earlier seasons with the ridiculous gawking at SA, to the voice of the audience wondering why hasn't your death made you realize stuff and make you want to do things differently. I was like Preach sister! I never thought I would simultaneously want to hug SA & give ERB a high five all at the same time. It really was perfect, and I think it set up a good place from which the story can grow. I do believe that they will find their way back to each other. But I think this separation was needed, esp after Oliver chose this path unilaterally. Choices Oliver! He really needs to figure out a better way to make choices, so he makes better choices. He rarely seems to make good choices, he makes good decisions but not good choices. Its a fine line between them, but I think better choices leads to better life, and better decisions well they don't always work out for you in the long run because they generally only focus on 1 aspect and not the larger impact of that decision.

[marketdoctor]

 

Well. So that happened.

 

I think this sums up my feelings for the show.  It's like they're breaking the first rule of good TV--force the show to fit what they want the narrative to be, instead of letting it go where it needs to.

 

Also, Felicity's comment about "I'm the only one who calls us that" about Team Arrow made me wonder how much she's a stand-in for fans, which makes her hatred of the idea of working with Malcom Merlin all the more surreal.

[Danny Franks]

So wait, I've just seen a clip of the big fight scene (looks pretty boring, to be honest), but am I right in thinking that Sin realised it wasn't the real Canary when she saw Laurel completely ignoring the fight that was continuing around them so she could kneel on the floor and tenderly hold some guy's head? Are the writers actually deliberately saying, 'she gets distracted and useless when people need her, and that's how Sin knew she was fake?' Do they actually want people to like Laurel at all?

[Delphi]

Sin recognized that it wasn't Sara earlier when she saw Laurel and Roy leave a bar and Laurel walked right past her.

[Carrie Ann]

My impression of that moment was that Sin was confused, but that she thought "Sara" might not have heard her. Then when she saw her again in the fight, not fighting, but tending to someone Sin didn't recognize (in addition to maybe having another moment to look at her and see physical differences), she became sure that it wasn't Sara.

[apinknightmare]

My impression of that moment was that Sin was confused, but that she thought "Sara" might not have heard her. Then when she saw her again in the fight, not fighting, but tending to someone Sin didn't recognize (in addition to maybe having another moment to look at her and see physical differences), she became sure that it wasn't Sara.

 

And in addition, Sara loved Sin - she would've never been in town and not let her know or stopped by to see her. Another big clue-in. 

[statsgirl]

I liked Quentin's comment to Roy about Sara, not to tell her he wanted to see her but to watch her back.  Gave Roy an out too.

 

A lot of the time I'm angry about the writing for this show but I think Felicity's reaction at the end was well done for two reasons, first that it's the only think I can think of that would make me sympathetic to her looking to Ray, and second because it makes perfect emotional sense.

 

While Oliver was away, and later 'dead', Felicity kept going with the crusade because that was what Oliver wanted and fought for and she was doing it not because she was the kind of person who would take up a crusade like this but to honour him.  What he wanted and died for was what kept her going, hence the "I can't imagine a universe in which Oliver would team up with Malcolm Merlyn".  Then he came back and the first thing he did was team up with Malcolm.  She's got to be questioning everything she thought about him, his values, his priorities as well as his love. He loved Sara, he said he loves Thea but he's getting into bed with the man who killed one and brainwashed the other. Who is this person that she thought was Oliver Queen?  It doesn't seem fair that people are dumping on her now for what is a perfectly normal reaction..

 

I am, however, angry that Oliver and Felicity couldn't have even five seconds of joy before MG broke them up again.

[BumpSetSpike]

I apologize if this review has already been shared, but this paragraph completely sums up one of my biggest disappointments of this episode - Oliver's return.  

 

 

That’s How They Had Oliver Return? | Or at least I would have been giving the producers high fives if they had figured out a better way to incorporate Oliver’s return. As LivingTheGeekLife put it, “The way Oliver’s return was handled was less exciting than it should have been.  By not showing things from his side and by cutting away from his actual arrival on either scene, the impact of his triumphant return was dampened […]That was the only real downer in the story.  It was a big downer, though.”

 

Their hands were tied by the fact that Oliver is still nursing his injury, but bringing him back from the dead and dropping him in at the climax of a major street brawl involving just about everyone he knows should have been far more of a rah-rah moment than it was here. Their timelines were also very confusing because we still have no idea how far away Oliver was from Starling City. That cabin certainly looked very remote, and cross-cutting between the escalations at home and Oliver’s need to get there made it feel like those things were happening at the same time but Oliver was still far away. Then he just shows up in the middle of the fight, trusting we’ll pump our fist in the air without asking, “But, wait, when the hell did he get there? Does he even really know what’s going on?”

 

Oliver's recovery and eventual return should have been the highlight - the angst, the fear if he will make it back, the joy and shock in the faces of those he loved when he does make it home.

 

Wake me up when the producers decide to make this series about Oliver again.  Because it is obvious that they care more about their shiny superhero toys than the story of Oliver Queen's journey.

Edited February 6, 2015 by BumpSetSpike

[Chaser]

Oliver and Felicity are both motivated by love and fear. Oliver's for Thea and Felicity's for Oliver.

[CabotCove]

The show is ABSOLUTELY about what Felicitys version of a hero and Diggles for that matter are, not just Oliver's. The entire first season was all about what a hero should really be doing. The "team" aspect of arrow has always been important and Oliver has always needed help with the morals of the situation. This has been an ongoing point throughout the series. So for him to make that decision without them was a but of a betrayal of their partnership and the decision itself is fraught with pitfalls. Diggle made the point earlier in the episode so it was clear, despite all the idiot whitewashing of Merlin's actions, he made the point himself to Thea. He is a killer.

Since when?. Arrow has always been sold as Oliver Queen's story/show. Apparently the team aspect wasn't important enough for this show to be called team arrow instead its only Arrow. Besides Felicity and Diggle aren't the only ones in his team, it has since expanded to include a bunch a people, and Oliver remains the main protagonist. From screentime, promotions, storylines etc, a lot proves that he is not in the same league as the others.

[statsgirl]

It is still about Oliver's journey primarily,  or it should be, this season has been rather a mess trying to shoehorn in origin stories for Laurel's Canary and the Atom.

 

But early in season 1, it became a better show with the addition first of Diggle (finally getting rid of the dreadful voiceovers) and then Felicity to the Team.  More complex, better storytelling when it wasn't just only about Oliver but added stories like Diggle having to deal with his old army buddy. Many reviewers such as Maureen Ryan and Alan Sepinwall say they watch for the Oliver/Diggle/Felicity team even now.  By then though, the title of the show had been set

[Shanna]

It's about Oliver journey but that doesn't mean that Oliver is alway right.

First season he changed from a guy who was just murdering everybody in his book to backing off that stance because of Diggle and felicity and also Tommy's influence. Season 2 was about figuring that out as a team and what it meant. If you missed all that I don't know what to say. I refer you back to Oliver's speech about how felicity didn't work for him - because they are a team.

[catrox14]

To me, regardless of what characters they introduce they should still be serving to tell Oliver Queen's journey. That is the show they sold me on and I wanted to watch. The occasional side bar for Diggle, Felicity and Roy as founding members of Team Arrow or  stories about Oliver's family and a main villain  of the season are acceptable and inform Oliver's journey,  but those stories should still tie back to Oliver in his journey throughout the course of the season. 

 

The problem with this season, is that it hasn't felt like anything is really ABOUT Oliver. I hope Oliver's return this episode means (and if I could demand it ) that the story resumes being about Oliver Queen's journey. 

[CabotCove]

It is still about Oliver's journey primarily, or it should be, this season has been rather a mess trying to shoehorn in origin stories for Laurel's Canary and the Atom.z

Well I think the show would be quite monotonous if it was only about Oliver. If I recall, Felicity also got an origin story. Sure she is no superhero like atom and canary. Its still about Oliver, he still has the most screentime and focus, but he doesn't exists in a vacuum. Both Smallville and the Flash have/had other superhero origins stories.

The problem with this season, is that it hasn't felt like anything is really ABOUT Oliver. I hope Oliver's return this episode means (and if I could demand it ) that the story resumes being about Oliver Queen's journey.

Fair enough. I understand that point. Not sure I agree but I understand it.

It's about Oliver journey but that doesn't mean that Oliver is alway right.

True, but I have would rather still want the protagonist of my favorite show making his own decisions , even wrong decisions than for him to be hand held all the time by either Felicity or Diggle. And I want to understand Oliver's POV and what's going on in his head through his eyes, not always through someone else's . And I'm not saying I don't appreciate when he consult or get advice from others because I do, just not all the time and ultimately I just think that he should have the final say and choice about things that concern his life IMO. Being part of a relationship, family, team doesnt mean one has to completely surrender their agency does it. Edited February 6, 2015 by Conell

[Shanna]

I would be happy with Oliver making his own decisions if he would stop making monumentally stupid ones!

Seriously, I think the team aspect is more interesting than batman winging it on his own and no one is going to be right all the time. Diggle and felicity bring different perspectives and skill sets to the group and they worked well together. They all benefit from this association, IMO. Oliver needs friends and compatriots, his life would be very lonely and depressing otherwise. So it is about him I think. Just the best version of him that we are working towards. I actually find that more interesting than an instahero would be.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Shanna

[SonofaBiscuit]

Man, I hope that if the people I love ever think that I'm dead for a month, I'll get more than just hugs when I return to the Land of the Living. The Team Arrow reunion scene was such a non-event that it played more like Oliver returning from a business trip or something.  I was expecting more and it was just meh. 

[Sakura12]

They don't know what to do without forced manufactured drama. When they have drama that writes itself they have no idea what to do. 

[statsgirl]

I think episode suffered from the EPs decision to rush through everything.  There were so many emotional beats here that should have been emphasized and weren't.

 

Well I think the show would be quite monotonous if it was only about Oliver. If I recall, Felicity also got an origin story. Sure she is no superhero like atom and canary. Its still about Oliver, he still has the most screentime and focus, but he doesn't exists in a vacuum. Both Smallville and the Flash have/had other superhero origins stories.

Felicity got an origin episode after more than 2 seasons of being on the show.  Ray had more than that by the time we got to The Secret Origins, and there are several more to go.  Laurel has two seasons to developing into the Black Canary plus this season where Sara was murdered to make it happen and then a number of episodes showing how she finally got to being out on the street now..

 

Sara worked for me because we didn't have to see her become the Canary, she arrived in black leather and kicking ass.  Later we got glimpse of how she got there but the show didn't take the time to have it play on screen in real time for us. Roy's origin story has been building for two seasons now but he still hasn't had as much time with it as we've had for Laurel and Ray this season.

 

If this were season 6 and Oliver was already the Green Arrow, I wouldn't object to time being spent on someone else's origin story, as I don't mind it being spent in The Flash because Barry is already the Flash so they have room to develop other characters. I'd probably still object if they were doing two at a time like they are with Black Canary and Atom.

 

 

True, but I have would rather still want the protagonist of my favorite show making his own decisions , even wrong decisions than for him to be hand held all the time by either Felicity or Diggle. And I want to understand Oliver's POV and what's going on in his head through his eyes, not always through someone else's . And I'm not saying I don't appreciate when he consult or get advice from others because I do, just not all the time and ultimately I just think that he should have the final say and choice about things that concern his life IMO. Being part of a relationship, family, team doesnt mean one has to completely surrender their agency does it.

He is making his own decisions but at the start, they're often stupid ones.  That's part of his journey that is the show -- he makes a decision, sometimes it's right and sometimes it's wrong and he has to learn what the right thing to do in the end is.  That's why Diggle and Felicity are there, and it used to be Moira too, and even Thea who told Oliver to he had to open up to someone.  Other characters present different points of view and then Oliver learns if he made the right choice or not.

 

I find it interesting that Felicity gets so much shade after this episode for being angry at Oliver for joining up with Malcolm Merlyn and no one ever comments that Diggle holds the same views as she does.  We need a look at the Oliver/Diggle bromance now that Oliver has thrown his stakes in with Malcolm.

[Shanna]

They don't know what to do without forced manufactured drama. When they have drama that writes itself they have no idea what to do.

So true! They had him jumping on a van delivering a stupid speech to strangers as his return, (and visiting Thea which is fine but she didn't know he was dead either so she was like hey what up), which robbed the reunion with the people who actually though he was dead of all it's punch.

The writers are deeply stupid on this.

[BkWurm1]

What I loved most about it, is that it made her a strong, fierce, intelligent woman. In no way did her line diminish her femininity or her strength. It did not put his love for Thea or Sara down, rather she tried to make him see that his choices were not honoring them, which is a beautiful sentiment in a world where girl-on-girl hate to promote your position has become so popular.

 

I both love this and it kills me.  I love that out of everyone, it is Felicity that seems to remember the wrongs done to these women and not just remember, but cares that they are treated right.  But she shouldn't be the only one and it hurts that no else seems to think about them in terms of their honor or dignity or doing what is right in their names. 

 

I find it interesting that Felicity gets so much shade after this episode for being angry at Oliver for joining up with Malcolm Merlyn and no one ever comments that Diggle holds the same views as she does.  We need a look at the Oliver/Diggle bromance now that Oliver has thrown his stakes in with Malcolm.

 

I'm hoping Diggle will speak up in support of Felicity's stance.  I don't expect it to be a big moment where he draws a line in the sand like she did, but I'd really appreciate at least a "What did you expect?" from him.