S03.E11: The Illustrious Client

[FurryFury]

Oh, and I forgot to mention that it was nice to see Scarface again. I headcanon that he's survived that explosion and is now living under a fake identity.

[basil]

Oh, that reminds me, could anyone please tell me what Kitty's exact words were to Joan? I got: "You said that I could come here if I ever needed [???]. You gave me a key."

 

 

IIRC Kitty said that Joan told her she could come over if she ever needed a place where she felt safe.

 

 

Just watched again. Kitty's exact words (in response to Joan's question "Kitty, what are you doing here?") were "You said I could come here if I ever needed to. You gave me ...a key."

 

Lovibond was indeed amazing in that scene in her visceral reaction's to her rapist's voice.

[Athena]

Lovibond was indeed amazing in that scene in her visceral reaction's to her rapist's voice.

 

She's been showing more and more of her skills as the season progresses and it's brilliant to see. I knew the reveal was coming, but her performance was still fantastic. Her shaking and body language was so intense that I teared up alongside her. She seemed so genuinely scared, shocked, afraid, and angry. Throughout this episode, she was incredibly tense and I could feel it. I think she definitely has great screen presence.

[MaryHedwig]

I'm guessing you mean that Kitty's credibility has been seriously diminished in the eyes of Gregson by her actions that got her suspended.

As shocked as I am about what Kitty (allegedly) did to Violet, I have to put that into the context of what Sherlock did to Moran.  One difference is that Sherlock believed Moran had directly killed his beloved Irene, Kitty did not believe that Violet killed anyone, or was her perpetrator, she just believed that Violet had information that the police needed to stop her perpetrator.  Both tortured to get information, are we more shocked at Kitty torturing because she is a woman?  Is Kitty going to get a Gregson punch in the stomach?

 

Changing the subject, I really liked the scene early on with Kitty and Bell.  Bell so compassionate and yet respectfully distant.  I don't think that Kitty can really settle down in New York but, if she could, Bell certainly has the depth to be great boyfriend material for her.

 

Third time watching, and the show just gets better each time except that Sherlock just keeps missing really big clues, I was impressed again by the scene between Sherlock and Kitty in the morgue.  The lack of physical distance between them is telling.  Kitty moves in very close, really violating his personal space, as frustrated as she is with him, it is clear that she really trusts him as a human and as a man.

[MaryHedwig]

Maybe he's gathered what intelligence he needed in the US and is back in Pakistan.

Totally see this (the actor that played Watson's boyfriend is also on Homeland.)  This means that Watson misread her boyfriend as well as her new boss, she really can't read men well can she?  Maybe she would better off being post-love like Sherlock.

[theatremouse]

Totally see this (the actor that played Watson's boyfriend is also on Homeland.)  This means that Watson misread her boyfriend as well as her new boss, she really can't read men well can she?  Maybe she would better off being post-love like Sherlock.

I assumed the previous remark was effectively a joke about his being on Homeland, ie the character is in "Denmark" so he can go film Homeland, not an actual theory for his plot on this show.

[MaryHedwig]

I assumed the previous remark was effectively a joke about his being on Homeland, ie the character is in "Denmark" so he can go film Homeland, not an actual theory for his plot on this show.

Yes, it was a joke, I have too much time on my hands.  But the "joke" comes trying to make sense of why he dropped out of sight after Watson lit candles for his return dinner home.  Are we just supposed to forget about him?  Is he going to pop back up for a key role in a  future story arc?  I still stand on my premise, Watson has impaired relationship skills.  Maybe Sherlock is Watson's most profound and genuine connection as she is for him.

Edited January 25, 2015 by MaryHedwig

[basil]

As shocked as I am about what Kitty (allegedly) did to Violet, I have to put that into the context of what Sherlock did to Moran.  One difference is that Sherlock believed Moran had directly killed his beloved Irene, Kitty did not believe that Violet killed anyone, or was her perpetrator, she just believed that Violet had information that the police needed to stop her perpetrator.  Both tortured to get information, are we more shocked at Kitty torturing because she is a woman?

I don't believe Kitty did anything physical to Violet, despite the photos. I'll need to re-watch, but if she had, why wouldn't she have been arrested? Sherlock did not torture Moran - kidnapped and restrained him, yes. Tortured, no. He did stab him, not to torture him, but because he "presumed to know" him. All Gregson had to go on regarding Moran was Moran's own words - that he'd lured  Holmes to a deserted spot with the intent to kill him, but Holmes got the better of him. I always wondered why Gregson questioned that.

 

I also don't get Gregson's "looking the other way" when it comes to Kitty and the abusive police officer. No one made any accusations. The officer in question opted to move. Did Kitty have anything to do with it? Probably, but there were no accusations and therefore nothing for Gregson to have to ignore. 

Edited January 24, 2015 by basil

[Izeinwinter]

Not ignore in the sense of "Fail to prosecute" but ignore as in "Continue to bring in as a consultant". None of team Sherlock are police officers - Each and every criminal investigation they are brought in on is at Gregsons discretion, and continuing to do that when it is blatantly obvious Kitty intimidated that doucebag was, indeed, not proper police conduct. He knows she did it, and he doesn't need to prove it in a court of law to terminate her association with the department. He can do that because he doesn't like her haircut if it comes to that, and this is rather more serious.

 

Not that Gregson handled *any* aspect of that clusterfuck according to the book, but, eurgh, a good solution to that mess doesn't exactly spring to mind. Absent a formal complaint, he could..? 

 

Put him on shit details until he quits on his own ?

 

Might have worked. I mean, he'd know why, and Gregson could probably have told the union reps the truth if he bitched. 

Edited January 24, 2015 by Izeinwinter

[shapeshifter]

I assumed the previous remark was effectively a joke about his being on Homeland, ie the character is in "Denmark" so he can go film Homeland, not an actual theory for his plot on this show.

Yes, it was a joke, I have too much time on my hands.  But the "joke" comes trying to make sense of why he dropped out of sight after Watson lit candles for his return dinner home.  Are we just supposed to forget about him?  Is going to pop back up for a key role in a  future story arc?...

I hope to live to see the time when TV shows make overt crossover jokes about actors' roles in other shows. I'm old enough to remember the first time I was shocked to see a commercial for a show on another show's network, so why can't this happen? Something like...

Sherlock: So, Watson, have you been lighting any candles for your lover lately?

Watson: No, he's still doing some shooting in his homeland.

I don't believe Kitty did anything physical to Violet, despite the photos. I'll need to re-watch, but if she had, why wouldn't she have been arrested?...

Good question. Does Violet have to "press charges" for Kitty to be arrested?

[FurryFury]

Maybe Sherlock is Watson's most profound and genuine connection as she is for him.

 

I think Watson is certainly going to struggle with this idea for some time. I'd love it if the show explored her issues with relationships and getting close with people. It's high time for that. She has quite a few failed relationships and she doesn't seem close to her friends. I want to know why.

[ABay]

It was obvious to me that Joan's new boss was the bad guy. I know Townsend's name but couldn't pick him out of a line-up and didn't see his name, anyway, it's just that he was the only viable candidate in TV terms.

 

My favorite moment was undeniably seeing Anthony/Scarface from POI. I'm still annoyed that he's gone.

Edited January 24, 2015 by ABay

[mandigirl]

If anyone won't go along with it being him, it will be Gregson, which means no police detail.

I'm guessing you mean that Kitty's credibility has been seriously diminished in the eyes of Gregson by her actions that got her suspended. Also, he would have to justify the expense of the protection.

 

 

I actually think that while Gregson may be suspicious of Kitty, he implicitly trusts Joan and (on matters like this) Sherlock. For budget reasons, I doubt he can keep the detail on her with a closed case, but I do think he's going to take investigating Joan's boss seriously without needing much convincing. 

 

Changing the subject, I really liked the scene early on with Kitty and Bell.  Bell so compassionate and yet respectfully distant.  I don't think that Kitty can really settle down in New York but, if she could, Bell certainly has the depth to be great boyfriend material for her.

 

Thanks for reminding me of that, because I totally thought the same thing when I saw that scene. The two of them have very nice chemistry and it was another awesome little throw-away detail that Kitty is now completely relaxed around Bell, even under the circumstances. I remember in the earlier episodes, she could barely stand it when he accidentally bumped into her let alone be alone in a dark room with him. 

[basil]

Good question. Does Violet have to "press charges" for Kitty to be arrested?

 

 

I just re-watched that entire episode. The whole "Kitty beat Violet" thing makes no sense. Yes, Kitty shows up with a baton. Yes, the next day Violet shows up with information. Why, then, would she show up the next day with photos?

 

Why wouldn't she have either A) called the police the minute Kitty left, or B) Accuse her at the station? For that matter, why wasn't Violet arrested for stealing the drug?

[Izeinwinter]

She wasn't arrested because the cops still wanted her at large and under surveillance in the hopes of her brother calling her for help. 

 

She most likely vent to the cops with the photos because she realized she was going to get charged with grand larceny approximately 3 seconds after her brother was found. The point largely being to get the local prosecutor to look at her case and go "Going to get tossed as fruit of the poisonous tree, so fuck prosecuting that". Kitty wasn't charged because she is Kitty - I *very* much doubt she left any evidence other than the bruises, and those she could just claim ignorance off. Heck, entirely possible the nurse self-inflicted them. 

[HeatherinThailand]

Man that final scene gave me chills. At first I was totally thinking the person behind Joan was the rapist, but then when it was revealed to be Kitty and she was acting all sketchy, I was like "Awwww, shit, Kitty's lost it now and is gonna attack Watson, for some reason." But, the final reveal that it was Del who was the attacker was such a great payoff. I hope this doesn't mean the end of Kitty's appearance on the show, though, as I have become kind of attached to her presence.

[DeLurker]

Does Violet have to "press charges" for Kitty to be arrested?

Theoretically no. Criminal charges are always the State of X versus Individual. If there's compelling enough evidence the case can go forward without a willing victim filing a complaint and treated as a hostile witness in court.

In this case there are no witnesses so Kitty's word against the sister. There might be fingerprints because I thought Kitty locked the door and shutoff lights, but the woman had a police detail on her that Kitty managed to get by without being seen (presumably). So I'm iffy on whether a DA would want to take it forward.

I think Kitty did it. The back is a hard place to self inflict those sorts of bruises. An ME type of exam could determine the physics required to make the marks and where the attacker had to be in relation to the victim.

[Zahdii]

I'd imagine a good doctor could determine the age of the bruises to determine if they were inflicted on the night of Kitty's visit or the next day.  If for whatever reason Violet is trying to frame Kitty for an assault, she'd have had to self-inflict the wounds within hours of Kitty's visit.  If the wounds weren't self-inflicted, she could have either asked someone to hit her, or someone else found out she'd been to the police, went to her home and questioned her.  After admitting that Kitty had a baton and scared her with it, the true assailant (probably the guy who really committed the crime) could have simply punished Violet by beating her with a baton. 

 

I can see Violet going home to find someone waiting for her who scares her even more than Kitty did.  She spills the beans pretty quickly and then has to wait while the scary guy calls someone and tells them to "bring me a baton NOW".  She might have been allowed to live after being beaten because she was told to report Kitty in an attempt to discredit any of Kitty's testimony and possibly frame Kitty for what's-his-names murder by fire.

 

If that is the case, then Violet should be prepared to be murdered herself since she's already shown that she'll talk when frightened enough.  She should have walked into the police station, told all the truth, and begged for protection.

 

I remember a show I saw years ago where a man wanted to claim to have been beaten by someone wearing brass knuckles.  He filled a tube sock with rocks and hung the sock from a ceiling fan and turned the fan on at top speed.  Then he stood in the way of the fan and let the sock hit him on all sides, causing bruises.  It didn't work because he was murdered, and when the police checked his home they found a damaged fan, a stretched out tube sock, a bowl of decorative rocks, and several lengths of rope to help mimic someone hitting another person all over the area between the shoulders and hips.

[basil]

She wasn't arrested because the cops still wanted her at large and under surveillance in the hopes of her brother calling her for help.

 

 

Is that even possible? She steals extremely expensive medication and confesses to it. Has the hospital no say in this?

 

Criminal charges are always the State of X versus Individual. If there's compelling enough evidence the case can go forward without a willing victim filing a complaint and treated as a hostile witness in court.

 

 

Fwiw, I was once mugged and refused to press charges (looong story I won't post here). The crime was witnessed by an officer, the culprit arrested and served time.

 

I think Kitty did it. The back is a hard place to self inflict those sorts of bruises. An ME type of exam could determine the physics required to make the marks and where the attacker had to be in relation to the victim.

 

 

I don't think she did (she's too smart to use violence as a weapon to garner information - the threat of, yes. The use of - especially against a woman? Not buying that). I still don't get why Gregson is so pissed at Kitty over whatever she said to abusive cop, especially when he doesn't know what she said. Maybe she found out he wet his bed in camp - seriously, what's it to Gregson?

[sinkwriter]

 

I still don't get why Gregson is so pissed at Kitty over whatever she said to abusive cop, especially when he doesn't know what she said. Maybe she found out he wet his bed in camp - seriously, what's it to Gregson?

 

Especially because he looked the other way when it benefitted him. Whatever Kitty did or said, she got the corrupt cop to leave the precinct, thus leaving his daughter alone and no longer subject to the guy's violence or feeling like she had to suffer through and keep a code of silence in order to move up in the ranks as a police officer. I'm sure Gregson was a little surprised and disturbed that Kitty might have threatened the guy, but he didn't mind it that much because it protected his daughter. So he can't necessarily turn that against her; that would be hypocritical and he would be just as culpable, having hit the guy himself. When he asked Kitty what she said to the cop, she even said, "Does it matter?" and of course it didn't matter to him deep down, if it meant his daughter was safe from a dangerous partner. I can appreciate him worrying that this is becoming a pattern for Kitty, something he should keep an eye on, but he shouldn't act high and mighty about it when he once benefitted from her "approach."

I also really liked that Sherlock asked to be the one to tell her. I appreciated his sensitivity about it. That's unusual for him, given his bluntness.

[possibilities]

Whether Kitty did or didn't beat the sister, the protective detail was based on the serial killer being at large. Now that the department-- and Sherlock himself-- believe they've caught the guy, the protective detail would no longer be considered necessary.

 

I think Kitty going to Joan's place is saying not only does Kitty realize there is no longer protection following her around, but she no longer trusts Sherlock. She has been annoyed by him and not left the brownstone before. But now she is afraid on top of being annoyed.

 

I think she was hoping the killer would not follow her to Joan's place, and that when Joan arrived home, Joan would believe her and help her get the investigation continued. Discovering the identity of the killer by Joan speaking with him on the phone was not part of the plan, but can you imagine the avalanche of terror that would descend on you if your one safe haven was suddenly broadcasting the voice of the very person you were fleeing? That Kitty was apparently sleeping when the voice woke her makes it even more devastating. I thought the actress's shaking was terrifically authentic. Kudos to casting.

[basil]

I think Kitty going to Joan's place is saying not only does Kitty realize there is no longer protection following her around, but she no longer trusts Sherlock. She has been annoyed by him and not left the brownstone before. But now she is afraid on top of being annoyed.

 

 

Are you saying that Kitty is afraid of Sherlock? I just can't see that, unless she's gone psychotic. [eta: if you mean she's afraid there's no longer a detail on her, I don't get that, either. She didn't seem to want it in the first place]

 

I just think she'd had enough of his pontificating on something he couldn't understand in the same way she could. I found it a very sad scene. He was willing to revisit every fact of the case with her, do everything possible to help her, but wanted to prepare her to know that maybe it was just finally over.

 

Unfortunately, he isn't skilled at these things and it was just too soon for that possible truth. Also seemed out of character for Sherlock to come very close to dismissing Kitty's hunch. We've seen Sherlock be very sensitive with abused women. He comforted the imprisoned Russian prostitute in one episode and has the foresight to see that the suspect was out of sight before they freed the women in the recording studio in another. It just doesn't ring true to me he'd dismiss Kitty so easily.

 

I think Kitty just went to Joan's for peace and quiet.

Edited January 26, 2015 by basil

[johntfs]

For a show about a modern version of legendary fictional detective, Sherlock Holmes, Elementary can be surprisingly realistic.  The bruise pattens on Violet's back were narrow, cylindrical and a likely match to Kitty's baton.  Kitty knew Violet had more information.  Kitty also knew that Violet knew the hideous things her brother did to his "girls."  It's likely that Violet had to help treat one or two of the women if they'd been punished to the point they couldn't "work" as well.  So, Kitty beat Violet into cooperation.  Once her brother was murdered, Violet got angry and told what Kitty had done to her.  Figure at that Gregson did a bit of horse-trading with her - if Violet didn't press charges against Kitty then Gregson would convince the DA not to pursue aiding and abetting charges against Violet.  Still, Gregson can't have a consultant who beats information out of witnesses, no matter much those witnesses deserve it, so he's suspending her as a consultant.

[basil]

The bruise pattens on Violet's back were narrow, cylindrical and a likely match to Kitty's baton.  Kitty knew Violet had more information.  Kitty also knew that Violet knew the hideous things her brother did to his "girls."  It's likely that Violet had to help treat one or two of the women if they'd been punished to the point they couldn't "work" as well.  So, Kitty beat Violet into cooperation.  Once her brother was murdered, Violet got angry and told what Kitty had done to her.

 

 

Way too convenient for me, as is the idea that Violet injured herself to frame Kitty. Also convenient that the main suspect is murdered, tying up the loose ends. He was a trafficker of women, not a serial killer.

 

Figure at that Gregson did a bit of horse-trading with her - if Violet didn't press charges against Kitty then Gregson would convince the DA not to pursue aiding and abetting charges against Violet.

 

 

You're forgetting her confession of grand larceny in stealing the drugs - Gregson can't just make things like that go away.

[Sharpie66]

Just watched the ep. ITA that Lovibond is doing great as Kitty, much more than I thought in the season opener.

I completely missed that the boss was Stuart Townsend. The only thing I know him for is being the original Aragorn in LotR before they replaced him with Viggo.

[Izeinwinter]

Oh, the grand larceny charges can totally go away. No deal needed for that. Prosecutors have a lot of latitude in what to prosecute, and if the prosecutor figures a jury will believe she was beaten into confessing, said prosecutor is not going to bother pressing charges, because the case would collapse on that one point alone.  The hospital can fire her for cause, and try a civil suit to recover damages. Or the prosecutor could count on the jury taking one look at what she was doing and being all "throw the library at her" in which case she is going to go down for centuries of hard time. Dozen of counts of aiding and abetting kidnapping, rape and torture. Kitty is free and clear regardless because I don't see how they can make that assault charge stick. Not with that witness. 

[johntfs]

Way too convenient for me, as is the idea that Violet injured herself to frame Kitty. Also convenient that the main suspect is murdered, tying up the loose ends. He was a trafficker of women, not a serial killer.

 

 

You're forgetting her confession of grand larceny in stealing the drugs - Gregson can't just make things like that go away.

 

What exactly is too convenient?  It's a pretty straight line from Violet's brother is apparently Kitty's rapist to Kitty beating Violet into cooperating with catching him.  As for the guy being murdered, it's obvious that the serial killer did it to shut him up.  The killer probably bought women from Violet's brother several times, used them up and murdered him.  Or maybe he just raped and murdered them in the brothel, paying the brother for the use of the space.  Either way, the brother knew too much and had to go.  When Watson came to him with an idea that would find the guy, he went along with it to get ahead of the police and murder the brother to shut him up since he knew that if the guy was caught, the first thing he'd do was say "Hey, if you go easy on me, I'll hand you this serial rape-murderer I know."

 

And as was mentioned by Izeinwinter, prosecutors have descretion.  With Violet's brother dead a lot of the pressure to prosecute her disappears.  After all, her brother was actually the one who stole the drugs.  She could've claimed that he threatened her into helping him.  Place the beating makes things murky.  Best to let things slide.

 

Just watched the ep. ITA that Lovibond is doing great as Kitty, much more than I thought in the season opener.

I completely missed that the boss was Stuart Townsend. The only thing I know him for is being the original Aragorn in LotR before they replaced him with Viggo.

 

I knew of Townsend as Lestat in Queen of the Damned and from that short-lived Kolchak: The Night Stalker from a few years ago.

[Clanstarling]

I'd imagine a good doctor could determine the age of the bruises to determine if they were inflicted on the night of Kitty's visit or the next day.

 This is probably WAY overthinking it - but on my TV, anyway, some of the bruises looked yellowed, already healing up. Perhaps she didn't injure herself after Kitty appeared - perhaps she was beaten before. Say, by her brother, who is a known abuser, and an aside she made during one of the interviews made me think she'd experienced his violence before.

 

I thought the actress who played Kitty did an amazing job when she heard the voice.

Edited January 27, 2015 by clanstarling

[johntfs]

 

And Gregson's and Sherlock's wholesale acceptance of Kitty beating on another woman, really bothers me. 

 

Would Kitty beating another human being have somehow been more acceptable if that human had been male?  This woman was on some level okay with her brother getting away with turning other women into rape slaves.  I'm okay with Kitty giving her a beatdown as well considering that.

[basil]

What exactly is too convenient?

 

 

You've answered your own question. That the man burned to to death in the boat was automatically presumed to be Kitty's rapist, case closed, was far too convenient a solution. Who did the serial murderer think would get the rap for his murder? Kitty? Seems like the guy wants to torment Kitty, not put her in jail. Besides, she was followed by officers during that whole time. Perfect alibi. Deliberately murdering the guy (the boat hatch was nailed shut) creates more questions than it answers.

 

With Violet's brother dead a lot of the pressure to prosecute her disappears.  After all, her brother was actually the one who stole the drugs.  She could've claimed that he threatened her into helping him.  Place the beating makes things murky.  Best to let things slide. ​[bolding mine]

 

 

For whom?

 

And Gregson's and Sherlock's wholesale acceptance of Kitty beating on another woman, really bothers me.

 

 

That, and the assumption that the murdered trafficker was Kitty's assailant. Sherlock is too smart to not see that as a possible misdirection. He doesn't even wonder who killed the guy?

 

Would Kitty beating another human being have somehow been more acceptable if that human had been male?  This woman was on some level okay with her brother getting away with turning other women into rape slaves. [bolding mine]

 

 

I think a point may being missed. First of all, we don't know if Kitty beat anyone, and if we did, who is saying it's "more acceptable" if she beat a "male"?. Second, Kitty, I would think that as a woman who has been brutally treated by a man is far less likely to hurt another woman who had not attacked her (imo). Third, do we know that Violet knew of or at least was okay with her brother's turning women into rape slaves?

Edited January 27, 2015 by basil

[Athena]

Third, do we know that Violet knew of or at least was okay with her brother's turning women into rape slaves

 

I rewatched the scene: "Simon is the only family I have left. I know it's not an excuse. It's just- I didn't know he hurt those girls. But I wasn't surprised either. He's always been different."

 

So she turned a blind eye to his criminal behaviour and he knew he had some sort of brothel going on. At best, she knew he was some sort of pimp. It really skeeved me out. I know he's her only family, but even she knew there was something off about him.

 

I don't really have an issue with Kitty beating that woman if only because Kitty is on a revenge seeking path. I still like the character, but she clearly has PTSD and issues from that time (who wouldn't).

[basil]

I rewatched the scene: "Simon is the only family I have left. I know it's not an excuse. It's just- I didn't know he hurt those girls. But I wasn't surprised either. He's always been different."

So she turned a blind eye to his criminal behaviour and he [sic] knew he had some sort of brothel going on. At best, she knew he was some sort of pimp. It really skeeved me out. I know he's her only family, but even she knew there was something off about him.

 

 

From those quotes alone, there is no indication whatsoever that Violet knew that Simon did anything illegal at all (sans the stealing the drugs). Quite the opposite, in fact. She "wasn't surprised". That's a far cry from knowing he was a pimp in a brothel.

[frenchtoast]

Given how some of the episodes have ended, not exactly clear with an ending (I'm thinking of the Eternity Injection and the one with the Bella) I would say that ambiguity is not new to this show. I appreciate that the show depicts the messiness of life, that not everything is black and white and that people feel and react differently to situations. And considering that there is another episode to this story, I'd like to see how it plays out.

 

I'm just glad that Kitty Winter as a character has been expanded so much. She made such an impression in the original story, I'm glad she was given this room to develop. And I also like what she brings out it Joan. Joan may not be effusive, but she does care for people and it's been fascinating to see Kitty react to that. 

[Athena]

Let's keep our single sticks from beating this horse about whether Kitty did or didn't do it. We can all agree to disagree until the show clarifies (or doesn't). Move on, please. Thanks!

[racked]

You've answered your own question. That the man burned to to death in the boat was automatically presumed to be Kitty's rapist, case closed, was far too convenient a solution. Who did the serial murderer think would get the rap for his murder? Kitty? Seems like the guy wants to torment Kitty, not put her in jail. Besides, she was followed by officers during that whole time. Perfect alibi. Deliberately murdering the guy (the boat hatch was nailed shut) creates more questions than it answers.

But they covered this didn't they? They thought the mafia he was working for found him and killed him which did seem reasonable.

[theatremouse]

It does seem reasonable, but it's also very tidy to assume it rather than following up and seeing if there's any actual evidence suggesting/confirming it. If you've done a thorough investigation (which takes months usually) and that's inconclusive it might be reasonable to say, probably, we think that was it. But the show sort of presented it as, yup, that's it, we decided, the end, must be, one day of investigating, case closed, game over.

It's a reasonable theory to run after, not a reasonable conclusion to draw and let stand. I mean, I get because, TV, usually a case gets closed in a day, but that also usually involves some sort of smoking gun.

[MaryHedwig]

We have not been given enough clues but I would love to know the back story of how Sherlock got involved with Kitty.  Kitty was attacked five years ago, so did Sherlock work on her case when it was fresh which means back when he was working for Scotland Yard pre-Irene?  Did Sherlock working on Kitty's cold case during his most recent break for New York, you know the break that Watson is still pissed about?  The time line here is not working for me.

Edited January 28, 2015 by MaryHedwig

[johntfs]

Actually, it's probably very likely that the mafia did do the actual killing but that they only found the guy when Joan's boss gave them the information.

 

Within the show's universe there really wasn't anything to suggest the brothel owner was "innocent" except for Kitty's uncertainty and dissatisfaction with the result.  What Sherlock said to her was right (even if it was wrong).  It really was possible that the owner was her rapist and that she's not going to get the cathartic confrontation and closure that she needs.  It's only after Kitty hears the voice of Joan's boss that we get our "smoking gun."

 

I will note that it's possible that Joan's boss is innocent.  Perhaps Kitty's rapist work(s) for him and used some recording equipment to make it seem like the boss's voice just in case something went wrong.  We didn't really get a good look, but I wonder if there's any injury to the guy's hand.

[galax-arena]

I will note that it's possible that Joan's boss is innocent.  

In real life, of course this could be true, especially considering how a victim's memory can be imperfect due to the trauma involved. (And no, MRAs, having a faulty memory does not mean that the victim was making the whole thing up!) But this is the world of television, so I'm guessing that the likelihood of Del being innocent is slim to none. Especially considering

his literary counterpart in the ACD story of the same name was definitely a villain. Wasn't sure whether to spoiler-code this, since the stories have been out for ages

. 

[Trey]

I appreciate that you spoiler tagged that information, galax-arena.  I've read all the stories, but so long ago that I've forgotten details.

[basil]

I'd imagine a good doctor could determine the age of the bruises to determine if they were inflicted on the night of Kitty's visit or the next day.  If for whatever reason Violet is trying to frame Kitty for an assault, she'd have had to self-inflict the wounds within hours of Kitty's visit.

 

 

Interesting if mildly gruesome topic. Reminded me of canon when Watson's buddy describes Sherlock as he beat corpses to see how long after death bruises can be produced.

 

I'm not a doctor nor do I play one on TV, but I do a lot of physical labor in my line of work. I often get little bruises just in the daily course of work, and sometimes I've been in fairly serious accidents - and most points in between. Bottom line I know bruises in all their stages pretty well.

 

The bruises on Violet's back were either very lightly inflicted or old. Given something Kitty said in the following episode, as hard as it is for me to believe, it must have been Kitty, but she really held back. A baton wielded with any kind of real force will most definitely leave a very dark blue or purple mark, which will eventually yellow. Batons break bones and leave wicked bruises.

 

A day-old bruise that's yellow = very little force used (or someone who really doesn't bruise easily.

 

Here endeth the lesson.

Edited February 2, 2015 by basil

[DeLurker]

A day-old bruise that's yellow = very little force used (or someone who really doesn't bruise easily.

If they had been visually more disturbing they risk losing any sympathy the viewer might hold for Kitty. We wanted to believe she didn't do it last ep, so having it confirmed and having it be more severe looking would make it hard I think.

[paramitch]

I love this arc even though it's had me cringing. I've been giving Watson's boss the side-eye ever since the clever yet suggestive name of his insurance company -- Leda, who is an extremely well-known victim of rape by Zeus (albeit, in the form of a swan, which I always thought was weird, even for Greek mythology).

 

I just had this problem with a mainly lighthearted show I watch. I get no pleasure in watching that stuff. There are certain shows and movies where you'd expect to see this stuff, but not on Elementary.

 

I would actually argue this. The irony is that in the beginning, "Elementary" was almost garishly violent, and almost always opened with the violent murder or assault on a victim (typically, a woman), and after the title sequence we'd then have Holmes perusing the scene of the crime and the body of the now-dead victim.

 

But then toward the halfway point of season one, there was a definite shift, and the show stopped with the jarring and violent opening sequences (many of which really bothered me), and seemed to settle into itself and into the quieter and more cerebral procedural it is now. However, I definitely think the show doesn't shy away from violence, but I think the difference now from the show's beginnings is marked and to be commended -- the show seems more intent upon showing the victims in a more dignified way, and the bodies seem more like people and not like the blank automatons victims seem to be on so many cop shows. For instance, the startling and incredibly sad unveiling of the dead nurse in the dumpster a few episodes back -- a really haunting and unexpected moment.

 

On a more serious note, I went from being annoyed by Kitty cluttering up my show at the beginning of the season to finding her fascinating now. I thought the scene between her and Sherlock where he was comparing his addiction to her ordeal was great. He was trying to be kind and share his feelings in a long speech, so not natural for him, and she firmly tells him, her mentor, in a few sentences how wrong he is to think he can understand her pain. I felt her terror at the end when she heard his voice. I've never seen the actress who plays Kitty before this show, but she so much better than I originally gave her credit for.

 

I absolutely love Kitty and love the dynamic she brings to both the show and to Watson and Holmes. Ophelia Lovibond is really superb, and she has brought a toughness and vulnerability to Kitty, and has made me care about her deeply.

 

She's been showing more and more of her skills as the season progresses and it's brilliant to see. I knew the reveal was coming, but her performance was still fantastic. Her shaking and body language was so intense that I teared up alongside her. She seemed so genuinely scared, shocked, afraid, and angry. Throughout this episode, she was incredibly tense and I could feel it. I think she definitely has great screen presence.

That scene was incredible, and all the better to me in that I totally didn't see it coming -- the misdirection of Kitty appearing in Watson's apartment completely caught me off guard, and Kitty's attempts to remain calm in spite of her visible shaking made it all the sadder and more compelling.

 

Changing the subject, I really liked the scene early on with Kitty and Bell.  Bell so compassionate and yet respectfully distant.  I don't think that Kitty can really settle down in New York but, if she could, Bell certainly has the depth to be great boyfriend material for her.

I liked Bell's scenes with Kitty a lot, and thought there was a nice, quiet respect there. I just wished we'd had even one scene between Gregson and Kitty, as they had a really lovely and unexpected rapport in their previous interactions together about the Captain's daughter's situation.

 

Totally see this (the actor that played Watson's boyfriend is also on Homeland.)  This means that Watson misread her boyfriend as well as her new boss, she really can't read men well can she?  Maybe she would better off being post-love like Sherlock.

I think Raza Jaffrey, Watson's boyfriend, is ridiculously handsome and talented. But I wish there was more to his character and relationship with Watson on "Elementary." The actor's capable of more, but the character's a total waste. There's no "there," there. 

 

For a show about a modern version of legendary fictional detective, Sherlock Holmes, Elementary can be surprisingly realistic.  The bruise pattens on Violet's back were narrow, cylindrical and a likely match to Kitty's baton.  Kitty knew Violet had more information.  Kitty also knew that Violet knew the hideous things her brother did to his "girls."  It's likely that Violet had to help treat one or two of the women if they'd been punished to the point they couldn't "work" as well.  So, Kitty beat Violet into cooperation.  Once her brother was murdered, Violet got angry and told what Kitty had done to her.  Figure at that Gregson did a bit of horse-trading with her - if Violet didn't press charges against Kitty then Gregson would convince the DA not to pursue aiding and abetting charges against Violet.  Still, Gregson can't have a consultant who beats information out of witnesses, no matter much those witnesses deserve it, so he's suspending her as a consultant.

 

While I don't condone Kitty or anyone ever using violence, I can at least understand it in Kitty's case. The sister was very strange in the original interrogation and it seemed plain to me that she was fairly blatantly protecting and enabling her brother's activities, which I find incredibly gross. I think Kitty was wrong to use violence and coercion to get the sister to talk, but I also understood that Kitty was in fight-or-flight mode and that she was terrified for her life. Since it's all occurring in a world of fiction for me, if I can forgive Holmes for stabbing a man, I can forgive Kitty for giving a few whacks to an incredibly creepy woman who was willing to protect a rapist, kidnapper, murderer and sexual predator on a killing spree.

[basil]

I've been giving Watson's boss the side-eye ever since the clever yet suggestive name of his insurance company -- Leda, who is an extremely well-known victim of rape by Zeus (albeit, in the form of a swan, which I always thought was weird, even for Greek mythology).

 

 

That is a brilliant catch. Del was arrogant son of a bitch, wasn't he? Btw, you want to go for weird, look at Loki. He became a mare and gave birth to an eight legged horse. Religions/myths are just odd.

 

The irony is that in the beginning, "Elementary" was almost garishly violent, and almost always opened with the violent murder

I have to admit, the image of the clear rolling marble being suddenly stopped by a pool of blood, followed by Sherlock's words "Sometimes I hate being right" in the first minutes of the first episode was amazing. 

 

if I can forgive Holmes for stabbing a man...

The creepiest thing about that was that Sherlock's explanation to Watson for stabbing Moran. He knew Moran hadn't killed Irene by that time - granted, he'd killed many, but the reason Sherlock gave was that "he presumed to know me". Our boy can be a sick pup.

Edited February 5, 2015 by basil

[johntfs]

I recall Holmes' statement regarding his plan to frame the serial killer in the ninth episode of Season 2, which I'll paraphrase: "As skilled as I am at solving crimes, I assure that I am just as adept at committing them."

[basil]

I recall Holmes' statement regarding his plan to frame the serial killer in the ninth episode of Season 2, which I'll paraphrase: "As skilled as I am at solving crimes, I assure that I am just as adept at committing them."

 

You are correct. He had just punched the guy in the face and ruined any further chance of pursuing him. Joan talked him off the ledge and Holmes had an epiphany regarding the recording studio, leading the police to find victims there in a secret room. It was, oddly, also one of the times we saw Holmes' empathetic side, suggesting to the police that the perp be taken away so the victim would not have her assailant be the first thing she saw when she was released.

 

He has also said the same thing (about committing crimes), using almost the same words, quite recently, unless I'm mistaken.

Edited February 5, 2015 by basil

[MaryHedwig]

It was, oddly, also one of the times we saw Holmes' empathetic side, suggesting to the police that the perp be taken away so the victim would not have her assailant be the first thing she saw when she was released.

Actually, for me one of Sherlock's most endearing qualities is his empathy toward victims, my favorite was his compassion for the Russian prostitute locked in the basement.  That quality must have helped Sherlock bond quickly with Kitty.

 

I have been wondering lately about Sherlock's season 3 sex life.  Did he curtail it because he knew that Kitty would find it upsetting.  I can't quite see her handing over-nighters coffee in paper cups with Watson's attached expression.

[basil]

Actually, for me one of Sherlock's most endearing qualities is his empathy toward victims, my favorite was his compassion for the Russian prostitute locked in the basement.  That quality must have helped Sherlock bond quickly with Kitty.

That's another of my favorite scenes. Remember, Sherlock has been the victim of violence himself from a very young age.

 

I have been wondering lately about Sherlock's season 3 sex life.  Did he curtail it because he knew that Kitty would find it upsetting.  I can't quite see her handing over-nighters coffee in paper cups with Watson's attached expression.

Has he curtailed it, though? He no longer has to check in with a sobriety companion every few hours. He can stay out all night if he wants. His encounters with Joan's friend (both as "Tony" and himself) weren't at the brownstone. Maybe his season three sex life is just off screen.