Relationships: Speed Dating

[driedfruit]

It's a fine line: they need to listen to feedback enough to correct clear and obvious mistakes, but not so much that the fans are writing their scripts for them. I expect them to take criticism from the post-Christmas episodes into account when they plan for season 2.

 

I agree with you about mistakes, but that's not what is happening here. There was nothing glaring terrible pre-Christmas that is currently being rectified. In fact, the issues fans had with character development and the ethics of the metahuman prison have been exacerbated. It just seems like they've dumbed the show down to appeal to a small, if loud subset of fans, and that might cost them dearly in ratings comes season two. 

[quarks]

Joss Whedon frequently took fan/audience reaction into account with Buffy and Angel. The issue with Buffy season six wasn't taking fan response into consideration; it was that the show was handled over to another show runner, who had different things that she wanted to do with the show.  Listening to fans (and watching ratings, etc.) is common television practice: it's how shows stay on the air. 

 

Back to Flash, I think, a) it's incredibly difficult to produce 23 episodes of television at a breakneck pace while maintaining the same quality, especially for a low budget, hour long show with stunts and CGI, and b) some of the issues I see were built into the show from the beginning, and more show a lack of really thinking things out right from the beginning than issues with writing post the winter hiatus - for instance, the metahuman prison, and giving Iris a role beyond Barry's love interest. At least the show does seem to be addressing that last bit now.

[FurryFury]

Thank you for saying this about Buffy (really, the idea itself wasn't as bad as the horrible realization - fuck you, Marti Noxon), and I also agree that fan feedback isn't the problem with Flash. I'd say it's just that all the better ideas seem to have gone into the 1st half of the season, and some of the stuff that was just being set up then (like Firestorm or Iris/Barry relationship) didn't have satisfactory development (imo). And yeah, lack of proper worldbuilding and plotting also hurts the show. Arrow managed to work through it thanks to stronger characterizations and layered and varied relationships between characters, mostly, but this is the area Flash is lacking the most. I never really liked Oliver, but even he was a deeper character by this point in Arrow - hell, he was a deeper character in the pilot. And in the supporting cast, the only character that can at least try to stand up to their Arrow counterpart is Wells (to Moira), and even he clearly loses (well, there's also Iris, who's definitely better than Laurel, but that's more CP's doing than the writing).

Edited February 23, 2015 by FurryFury

[Sakura12]

My issue with Flash is they keep doing the same thing over and over again and instead of getting different results, we get the exact same results. There's no real sense of threat or danger or consequences. Buffy and Angel had to face consequences to their actions, Agent Carter faces consequences, Arrow has nothing but consequences to the point I wonder why he bothers to get up in the morning. But they all have to face the fact they don't always make the right decision or right decision can end up hurting a lot of people. 

 

Barry never learns from his mistakes and just wins at the end and calls himself a hero. While this show is definitely more fun than Arrow, it's starting to get boring and repetitive. 

[Lokiberry]

I agree with you about mistakes, but that's not what is happening here. There was nothing glaring terrible pre-Christmas that is currently being rectified. In fact, the issues fans had with character development and the ethics of the metahuman prison have been exacerbated. It just seems like they've dumbed the show down to appeal to a small, if loud subset of fans, and that might cost them dearly in ratings comes season two. 

On this very site, I've read another loud subset of fans calling for Team Flash to be abandoned so Barry and Iris can solve crimes together because comics. Should they listen to this group over the other group? Might that also cause rating problems next season?

 

Right now, the ratings are good, and the critics are generally happy. I see no problem with Barry's characterization, the focus on his relationship with his two dads, Cisco and Caitlyn, or the villains of the week. The prison bugs me, but not that much, because I'm just not taking this show all that seriously. Generally, I'm pretty happy, and I'd rather not see things changed to cater to another group of fans. Fans are always going to complain, fans are always going to have their own agenda; a good showrunner knows this, and won't fall into the cycle of trying to appease everyone because that leads to disaster.

[driedfruit]

Barry never learns from his mistakes and just wins at the end and calls himself a hero. While this show is definitely more fun than Arrow, it's starting to get boring and repetitive. 

 

This is my exact problem with the show.

 

Flash's powers are as dope as they come, but they're barely even getting explored. And I'm getting less and less invested in Barry as a hero and as a protagonist. They're dumbing him down too much to fit into the formula instead of writing for him as a character in his own right.

Edited February 23, 2015 by driedfruit

[CabotCove]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to call out the flash.  Arrow just leaves Flash in the dust when it comes to it's female cast regardless of whether you're talking about quantity or quality.

 

Don't agree, agreeing to disagree there. 

[phoenics]

This is my exact problem with the show.

 

Flash's powers are as dope as they come, but they're barely even getting explored. And I'm getting less and less invested in Barry as a hero and as a protagonist. They're dumbing him down too much to fit into the formula instead of writing for him as a character in his own right.

Yes - this is my issue too. I think Arrow "needed" Team Arrow to make him seem believable as a really, really BAMF hero... The Flash doesn't need that as much - even if I do like Team Flash.

But I completely agree with Team Flash in relation to Barry being the cause of him being dumbed down. That scene where he was angry and doing stuff? Just felt so amazing - like there is a whole other level of Flash crazy that could happen just by combining Barry's natural intelligence with his powers...

Again - that scene where he vibrated the horse tranquilizer out of him - that was just about the most terrifyingly HOT thing I've ever seen, lol.

[phoenics]

On this very site, I've read another loud subset of fans calling for Team Flash to be abandoned so Barry and Iris can solve crimes together because comics. Should they listen to this group over the other group? Might that also cause rating problems next season?

That's not what I'm saying - I'm one of the ones who has expressed disappointment that Team Flash dumbs Barry Allen down. I'm also sad because they've usurped some of Iris' natural characterization from the comics - if you had a favorite character lobotomized in order to give part of her characterization to characters that weren't even in the original story that way - you might be upset too. It's part of why I had issues with Chloe on Smallville - for the beginning years, she was too much of a Lois Lane ripoff for me to take her seriously - and when Lois first showed up acting NOTHING like the Lois Lane I knew and loved, I resented Chloe even more even if she was somewhat likable.

Also - I don't want to get rid of team Flash - at least not yet - but given that Harrison is Reverse Flash - how long do you think Team Flash can go on? It won't be a forever kind of thing - it can't. And if Caitlin becomes KF? What then?

I'm not sure the writers intend for Team Flash to be a forever thing...

But yeah - I am a little sore that part of Iris' story from the comics was usurped by Team Flash and even Joe - especially when a lot of the criticism I hear for Iris seems to come from the pieces that were sucked out of her by the writers and given to Team Flash as a plot device.

But I'm not "screaming" for anything and honestly, this thread is the first I've seen of that viewpoint - in fact, I thought I was pretty much alone in the "not totally into Team Flash" thing...

Are you saying I'm not in a very tiny minority?

[CabotCove]

But yeah - I am a little sore that part of Iris' story from the comics was usurped by Team Flash and even Joe - especially when a lot of the criticism I hear for Iris seems to come from the pieces that were sucked out of her by the writers and given to Team Flash as a plot device.

 

 

Who knows they could still be doing the same thing with Iris regardless of whether Team Flash is there or not. I think its a bit unfair to blame Team flash for Iris' "woes" Unlike the comic Iris, this Iris is a baby reporter and she is not in on Barry's secret of being the Flash. She is dating Eddie which is one of the reasons why her and Barry are growing apart lately. 

[driedfruit]

Right now, the ratings are good, and the critics are generally happy. I see no problem with Barry's characterization, the focus on his relationship with his two dads, Cisco and Caitlyn, or the villains of the week. The prison bugs me, but not that much, because I'm just not taking this show all that seriously. Generally, I'm pretty happy, and I'd rather not see things changed to cater to another group of fans. Fans are always going to complain, fans are always going to have their own agenda; a good showrunner knows this, and won't fall into the cycle of trying to appease everyone because that leads to disaster.

 

You're missing my point. I agree that general fandom "wants" don't need to be satisfied. But that's a whole different thing than genuine problems that fandom picks up on. Barry's superhero arc being mishandled and the narrative getting nonsensical and repetitive aren't things writers can shrug off, as they're problems that diminish the entertainment quality of the show in the long run.

 

And yes, you're right, the show has good ratings right now. But that's after having earned the viewers' good faith with a solid first half. A boring second half could diminish all that and ratings could very well see a big drop in time for season two.  

Edited February 24, 2015 by driedfruit

[cynic]

I'm another poster who has complained about Team Flash. I dislike how the desire to recreate Team Arrow has led the show to writing Barry as dependent on them and has made them flounder to find a place for Iris. I also don't particularly enjoy the writing for Caitlin/Cisco and think DP is a really bad actress. However, I'm not calling for the show to get rid of them. I just want them to be written (and acted) better and to find a better use for them that doesn't require making Barry dumb. I also am just against an increase of focus on them at the expense of Iris and would prefer a more balanced approach.

If I could make one wholesale change you the show, it wouldn't be to get rid of team Flash. It would be to give Iris a different profession, one that would be more useful so she could eventually become an integrated part of the team.

[TwistedandBored]

I think Team Flash's relationship worked during the first half because they were all new and mashing together. I think by now we should have had some serious moral difference between these characters. By episode 14 of Arrow we knew where everyone stood morally on an issue where as in this show they all seem to have the same moral compass. 

 

I also want to know the relationship between Iris and her dad. Did the mom leave before Barry moved in or was she gone before and if so what happen to her? I know Iris can throw a punch but why did Joe have to teach her how to fight? Was she bullied at school too and we just  didn't see it? Please, just a scene between these two every other episode would not have hurt. 

 

We are in the second half of the season and this is where characters should be defined. I hope we get more answers to these questions soon. 

[wayne67]

I think Team Flash's relationship worked during the first half because they were all new and mashing together. I think by now we should have had some serious moral difference between these characters. By episode 14 of Arrow we knew where everyone stood morally on an issue where as in this show they all seem to have the same moral compass.

 

For me I don't mind Team Flash but a lot of the time they feel like unnecessary baggage as there's no real tension within the group even during moments when they should. Barry for instance figures out that Tony was freed from his prison and snides at Wells who strokes Barry's ego and its swept under the rug. Caitlin points out the dangers of Barry attempting whatever random pointless thing he's doing that day and Barry ignores her. Cisco allows super weapons into criminal hands and he gets grief from Wells for all of a minute before they all move on with not a ripple in the relationship afterwards. Wells spends basically every episode lurking in the background adding very little of note until his big dramatic scene at the end of the episode to cast shade on his character's motivations.

 

Rinse and Repeat. *YAWN*

 

I want some depth, I don't care about the comics because I haven't read them. I want interesting characters to watch.

 

These people I don't even like most of the time. Barry feels fine telling everyone he meets that he's got super powers except his BFF for PLOT. Barry is super smart until he needs to deal with a metahuman and then he's a complete dunce for PLOT. Caitlin is grieving for Ronnie and runs into a version of him and proceeds to act like it's another Tuesday because shipping/plot/ poor acting? There's a basement particle collider that hasn't been scrapped for parts by the government after it caused city wide mayhem and death. Oh and it's filled with metahumans who apparently have no rights which doesn't bother the 2 members of the police force at all or anyone else.

 

Unpopular Opinion I'm bored of Wells and his scene of shadiness per episode. It's played a major part in about 12 episodes now and noone other than Joe and Pied Piper thinks Wells is odd at all. I don't understand how you can spend 8 months watching over an unconscious Barry and not ask any questions of your boss? I don't even know if these people are getting paid for working with/on Barry.

 

The world building feels very shallow...

[driedfruit]

I think Team Flash's relationship worked during the first half because they were all new and mashing together. I think by now we should have had some serious moral difference between these characters. By episode 14 of Arrow we knew where everyone stood morally on an issue where as in this show they all seem to have the same moral compass. 

 

Where we left off at 1.09, I thought all those moments like Barry's horror over Tony getting released, Cisco and the gun, and Caitlin/Ronnie were seeds to the changes that were going to come in the second half. While there have been plenty of opportunities for it, we've got nothing.

 

And if only Barry would stop with the heartfelt proclamations of trust in Wells. After all of his lies and shady behaviour, Barry is not even a little suspicious? 

Edited February 24, 2015 by driedfruit

[Shanna]

The world building feels very shallow...

Everything about the show feels shallow to me. I think that was ok in the first few episode but I agree now is the time when we need to see more depth and we just aren't.

I do like team flash, I just don't like the way they clean up any emotional consequences at the end of every episode. Disagreements should be building.

I do like Cisco and Caitlin. They have a sort of sibling vibe to me.

[wayne67]

It feels like the characters are so static.

 

Iris feels like the one having the most growth but mostly offscreen so a lot of it comes across as haphazard. Student waitress with secret boyfriend to semi serious reporter with live in boyfriend.

 

Barry continues to fight like an impetuous 12 year old with no combat experience despite multiple engagements against metahumans and super criminals.

 

Cisco still geeks out over gadgets and code names unconcerned about the shadiness of his boss despite several strange interactions and accusations

 

Caitlin... has negative growth...

[TwistedandBored]

I like Wells. Out of all them at the lab, he is the one that interests me the most. I just think the character suffered a little because his story in hold every other episode. 

 

I think Cisco worships Wells. He sees him as the guy who took a chance on him which blinds him to Wells' evilness. 

[Oscirus]

Buffy season 6, anyone?

 

I'll see your buffy season 6 and raise you Lost final season when they pretty much abandoned storylines that they spent five seasons establing to give the audience what they wanted and wound up  deteriorating their ending. 

 

I'm all for using fan input to help improve the story you're telling,  but not when it starts changing the story you already established. This show is not even a season long. It shouldn't be having continuity errors. 

 

On this very site, I've read another loud subset of fans calling for Team Flash to be abandoned so Barry and Iris can solve crimes together because comics. Should they listen to this group over the other group?

 

Well last episode hinted that they'll eventually start teaming up. And yes, you're right, they shouldn't listen to every single poster who posts a thought online.  But the point I take from that desire is that comics or no  comics, Flash shouldn't be dumbed down/weakened just to make team flash be important.

 

The world building feels very shallow

 

 

Unfortunately, this is a show that's special effects first and everything else second. They'll take the obvious suggestions from the recap sites ( more Joe-Barry bonding, more Dr.Wells being evil etc.)  but for the most part, they'll concentrate on wowing you with the special effects.

 

Caitlin... has negative growth...

 

 

I'd argue that other then Barry, she probably has the most growth.  When we first see her on the show, she's cold, fairly withdrawn humorless and grieving. Now she's in a good place,she has friends, she's a lot happier,  she's a bit flirtatious and she even participates in Cisco's silliness.

[FurryFury]

I wouldn't call this growth. I call this inconsistent characterization, because she swung (and continues to do so) from one extreme to the other. One minute she's described as cold, the next she's basically a Felicity-clone. One minute she's missing her fiancee, the next she's all ready to date and has ship tease with Barry. It just doesn't make sense, and the acting sure doesn't help.

 

I feel like all younger characters are way too shallow to have actual growth and development at this point. Joe's OK, but he's static. With Wells, it's hard to tell unless we know his goals and motives (and I'm already gearing myself for disappointment because I expect too much from this reveal).

[Sakura12]

I'm not even watching Arrow and it's been pissing me off and slowly turning me off this show because I see the same mistakes being made. Iris is being sidelined until they need her to fulfill her comic destiny or something. Which is the same thing they did with Laurel and that turned out horribly. Barry and Team just do the same thing over and over again and get the exact same results. The characters are reacting to the plot of the week instead of growing and learning, the same thing is happening on Arrow. 

 

After watching Agent Carter being a well written character growing comic based show. Arrow and Flash are really showing their failings as shows. I'm not watching to see cool special effects or stunts, I'm watching to see characters interact and grow together so I can care when they defeat the bad guy. 

[TyranAmiros]

Maybe it's a UO, but I really like the Star Labs team dynamic.  Unlike Team Arrow, I really believe these people would be friends in real life. I mean, I love Barry's relationship with Joe and Wells, but neither could really be called a partnership.  Both are father figures, and to the extent there's friendship, it's that of a mentor-mentee.  Cisco and Caitlyn give Barry friends who are in on his secret, share his interests in technology and science, and most importantly are his equals.  I don't need an Oliver Queen 2.0 in command--I don't think Barry himself really would want to lead the team.  It worked for Arrow because of the premise (Oliver's mission, Oliver's money), but here it's Wells in command with Barry, Cisco, and Caitlyn as more or less equal, non-competitive partners, and that really works for the show.  I like how they're friends as much as colleagues--they hang out, they're pretty open and honest with each other, and help each other out without expecting to be rewarded.  No doubt this could be portrayed better--I'd love to see alternatives to the "supervillain of the week" format that required them to work together--but it's part of what makes the show fun to watch for me. 

 

In terms of Barry/Iris, I'd love to see Iris more integrated into Star Labs and part of Team Flash, but I know exactly how this relationship with play out--full of comic book tropes like keeping secrets, damselling, taking away her agency by having Barry "sacrifice" for her when she didn't ask for it and doesn't want it, etc.  'Shippers will be interested in Barry/everyone else because they're real characters and not Quest Objects.  Comic book fans will say "because comics" because it's wish fulfilment (I love the Law and Order: SVU episode where they deconstructed this).  Barry and Iris will inevitably end up together about one season before cancellation. 

[driedfruit]

I don't need an Oliver Queen 2.0 in command--I don't think Barry himself really would want to lead the team. It worked for Arrow because of the premise (Oliver's mission, Oliver's money), but here it's Wells in command with Barry, Cisco, and Caitlyn as more or less equal, non-competitive partners, and that really works for the show.

 

This is Barry's story first and foremost. It's natural for viewers to expect to see him grow and take charge, be his own man. If he doesn't, he's pointless as a lead and as a superhero. 

[CabotCove]

This is Barry's story first and foremost. It's natural for viewers to expect to see him grow and take charge, be his own man. If he doesn't, he's pointless as a lead and as a superhero.

 

Agree, After Wells is unmasked, I cant see why Barry wouldn't take the lead. Someone will have to and Barry is the reason why they are able to do this: save Central city. It doesn't have to go the same way as Team Arrow, Team Flash would be more like equals even with a leader.

 

Maybe it's a UO, but I really like the Star Labs team dynamic.  Unlike Team Arrow, I really believe these people would be friends in real life.

 

Ditto

Edited February 27, 2015 by Conell

[Shanna]

I think the star labs team has an easy breezy friend chemistry. I buy them as friends but Barry seems to make friends easily while Cisco and Caitlin were already there (not counting wells here).

Team arrow is so different because they built their team slowly with conflict and disagreements along the way. There was nothing breezy about them but even if I don't see them as friends who are all having coffee daily, I see them as friends who would die for each other. I think their bonds are much stronger (not counting the hack job they've done on then lately).

So totally different bonds on the show. I think the group on the flash works for the show, but yes they should make Barry a little less dumb. Although I think the Oliver episode showed it was more arrogance on Barry's part then stupidity although he's being stupid not learning from experience. But he's also had no consequences since he heals so fast and nobody has really died except for red shirts and randoms. Lord knows I don't want them killing off joe or anything but I think something is going to have to snap Barry out of his arrogance for him to improve. Maybe evil wells will do it?

Edited February 27, 2015 by Shanna

[phoenics]

I think the time travel stuff + RF stuff might snap Barry out of his arrogant "I don't need to plan or be careful" stance.

[Actionmage]

You'd think Hartley's shearing Barry's internal organs and almost killing him might give Barry a reason to sit back and take a mo. Yet, he's more about anything other than how to not let that happen again.

 

Like he and Cisco talking about how to install some sonic defenses when Hungover Caitlin shuffles in and they could both grin and start singing "Summer Lovin'" at her. See? Not hard and implies proactiveness on Barry's part. It could also have made Barry's frowny face more bearable in the Cisco Reveals His Great Sin scene.

[phoenics]

You'd think Hartley's shearing Barry's internal organs and almost killing him might give Barry a reason to sit back and take a mo. Yet, he's more about anything other than how to not let that happen again.

I wonder if Barry has a thing around "being invincible"? I've noticed that in the early Superman TAS shows, Superman sometimes rushed in because he was pretty much invincible - but they showed him getting really smart. Although the series had a pattern: Supes rushes in, he doesn't beat the bad guys immediately, then he retreats and comes up with a plan and comes back and beats them.

Sometimes I wonder if Barry didn't have Team Flash whether he'd be smarter about things - as it is, he rushes in with his invincible self (he thinks he is) and if something goes awry he calls on Team Flash for help.

I wish he'd plan though and be more careful and just smarter! I still hold onto that moment when he shook that tranquilizer out of his system like that - that was so terrifyingly awesome.

[driedfruit]

Aside from the combat part, I wish Barry gave a hoot about what he does. His non-reaction to Piper's and Shawna's situations (and his all too eager imprisonment of them) hurt his character IMO. I'm not sure I see him as the same guy as in 1.07 anymore.

Edited March 13, 2015 by driedfruit

[phoenics]

I hope they start rectifying some of the issues with Barry in the upcoming episodes... if he does find out about Wells, I see him headed for a fall. Without Wells leading Team Flash, Barry has to do it - will he be able to?

Edited March 13, 2015 by phoenics

[Oscirus]

I buy them as friends but Barry seems to make friends easily while Cisco and Caitlin were already there (not counting wells here).

 

That's another thing that bothers me about the writing. The character tells us that he's so lonely yet what we're shown is a fairly charismatic gentleman who has no problem being in the company of others.

 

Team arrow is so different because they built their team slowly with conflict and disagreements along the way. There was nothing breezy about them but even if I don't see them as friends who are all having coffee daily, I see them as friends who would die for each other. I think their bonds are much stronger

 

Back in the first season when it just started up, team Arrow felt like a necessary part of Arrow. Diggles and Felcity both bought essential skill sets that were irreplaceable to the team. I don't feel the same way with Team Flash. As you pretty much said it feels more like friends showing up and watching their friend do cool things. And Wells is just there to be the mustache twirling villain. I hate to say this but if they lose either Cisco or Caitlin...

[driedfruit]

Back in the first season when it just started up, team Arrow felt like a necessary part of Arrow. Diggles and Felcity both bought essential skill sets that were irreplaceable to the team. I don't feel the same way with Team Flash. As you pretty much said it feels more like friends showing up and watching their friend do cool things. And Wells is just there to be the mustache twirling villain. I hate to say this but if they lose either Cisco or Caitlin...

 

 

That's a good point.

 

Barry has the healing powers of the TVD vampires, so he doesn't really need a physician. And Caitlin's occasional analysis of samples are things Barry the supergenius CSI was qualified to do himself in the earlier episodes. 

 

Cisco builds cool stuff, but that can be outsourced. Why does he need to watch over Barry? 

 

And Wells does the thinking for Barry, which I wish Barry could do for himself.  

 

That's another thing that bothers me about the writing. The character tells us that he's so lonely yet what we're shown is a fairly charismatic gentleman who has no problem being in the company of others.

 

That goes for all the characters. Barry and Caitlin's social behaviour doesn't make any sense. Same as Iris, because everything about her suggests she has plenty of friends, especially female friends from school and from her job. Cisco is the worst off though, since his social life seems to be reduced to gross stereotypes and dismissive writing.

Edited March 16, 2015 by driedfruit

[Actionmage]

Barry has the healing powers of the TVD vampires, so he doesn't really need a physician. And Caitlin's occasional analysis of samples are things Barry the supergenius CSI was qualified to do himself in the earlier episodes.

 

Cisco builds cool stuff, but that can be outsourced. Why does he need to watch over Barry?

 

And Wells does the thinking for Barry, which I wish Barry could do for himself.

 

Caitlin overlaps some of Barry's skill/specialties because they both work with biological items. Caitlin, iirc, was given credit for realizing why Barry was fainting Because Nutrition Skillz.  Cisco and Barry have experiments in common; Cisco takes his harder Sciences and mixes with biology or other Sciences, and comes up with shields, weapons meant for defense ( yeah, it was a misstep he's still paying for) and is enthusiastic about the various projects, like the protective suit.

 

Barry needs minders because he allows himself to be eye-whammied into a Rage Monster. He needs minders because he will allow himself to have his organs almost pureed by sonic attack. Because Barry will take off his cowl for anyone not named Iris. Because Barry allows his older male  role models more of a say on his personal decisions than they rightfully should 9 out of 10 times. C&C Flash Factory may not be entirely selfless in working with Barry, but they aren't in Harrison's league of "My precious!" wrt Barry. That's why Barry needs buffer-type folks. (Joe could be one, but I have issues with Det. West, even though I love Jesse L. Martin.)

[driedfruit]

Cisco could've been an affiliate of CCPD that Barry turned to when he needed to brainstorm and get the fun toys. They could've started a "team" from the grounds up, which would've been a lot more rewarding in the long run. 

 

Otherwise, Barry not being walked through his victories sounds like a win to me.

[Sakura12]

Cisco could've been an affiliate of CCPD that Barry turned to when he needed to brainstorm and get the fun toys. They could've started a "team" from the grounds up, which would've been a lot more rewarding in the long run.

 

If they did that then that would've been copying Team Arrow. I like Team Flash and think they are necessary tv show wise, Barry needs people to interact with and talk about his super hero duties with. Caitlin, Cisco and Wells make sense because they were the cause of his change and have been involved since the very beginning. Team Barry were ones taking care of him while he was in a coma, when he woke up and discovered he was super they became Team Flash.

[driedfruit]

If they did that then that would've been copying Team Arrow. 

 

I was thinking more along the lines of Batman Begins. 

[Sakura12]

I was thinking more along the lines of Batman Begins. 

 

That's what Arrow copied and continues to copy. 

[driedfruit]

That's what Arrow copied and continues to copy. 

 

True, but it works. 

 

I'm excited for what's coming regarding Wells and RF, but I doubt I'll ever be invested in Team Flash like I was in Team Arrow, and that's without ever being an Olicity fan. Maybe when Barry comes into his own things will get better, possibly. I hope. 

[In2You]

Team Flash is just unnecessary to me and takes away from the skills Barry and Iris had in the comics. Those two got dumbed down to make this team work. Cisco's only around to be a fanboy and create "cool" weapons. Cailtin really doesn't serve a purpose.  Wells just stands around twirling his mustache.

[Actionmage]

Team Flash is just unnecessary to me and takes away from the skills Barry and Iris had in the comics. Those two got dumbed down to make this team work. Cisco's only around to be a fanboy and create "cool" weapons. Cailtin really doesn't serve a purpose.  Wells just stands around twirling his mustache.

 

I guess we'll just have to respectfully agree to disagree.

 

 

I just can't believe that the two men who love Iris as much as Joe are going along with his stupid "Don't tell Iris!" campaign. Even if Eddie and Iris are having problems, I don't think Eddie would want Iris killed. The same for Barry. The younger guys need to just shrug the SecretKeeper off and tell Iris about her being in danger. Maybe take her to freaking Starling. At least Oliver might be around to keep her safe if Weather Wizard followed her.

 

I hope Linda checks out completely, regardless of the reset. She was ready to do so before this episode. She was going to again when Barry pulled that stupid ghost pepper stunt in front of her co-workers. So, I don't really see them having a romantic relationship, despite her being a comics character. Maybe a good friend, but not really a romantic partner. Even without Iris in the picture. Linda deserves to be treated as an adult woman, not Buffy's mom from season one.

[driedfruit]

I like Linda a lot, mostly because Malese is gorgeous and can act. But I'm not gonna be able to root for any relationship involving Barry, because no girl (or guy) deserves to come second.
 

I just can't believe that the two men who love Iris as much as Joe are going along with his stupid "Don't tell Iris!" campaign. Even if Eddie and Iris are having problems, I don't think Eddie would want Iris killed. The same for Barry. The younger guys need to just shrug the SecretKeeper off and tell Iris about her being in danger. Maybe take her to freaking Starling. At least Oliver might be around to keep her safe if Weather Wizard followed her.

 

 

It's comical by now. The line about "keeping a smile on her pretty face" made me facepalm so hard.

[phoenics]

Caitlin overlaps some of Barry's skill/specialties because they both work with biological items. Caitlin, iirc, was given credit for realizing why Barry was fainting Because Nutrition Skillz.  Cisco and Barry have experiments in common; Cisco takes his harder Sciences and mixes with biology or other Sciences, and comes up with shields, weapons meant for defense ( yeah, it was a misstep he's still paying for) and is enthusiastic about the various projects, like the protective suit.

 

Barry needs minders because he allows himself to be eye-whammied into a Rage Monster. He needs minders because he will allow himself to have his organs almost pureed by sonic attack. Because Barry will take off his cowl for anyone not named Iris. Because Barry allows his older male  role models more of a say on his personal decisions than they rightfully should 9 out of 10 times. C&C Flash Factory may not be entirely selfless in working with Barry, but they aren't in Harrison's league of "My precious!" wrt Barry. That's why Barry needs buffer-type folks. (Joe could be one, but I have issues with Det. West, even though I love Jesse L. Martin.)

The point folks are making is that Barry Allen as portrayed in the comics - didn't need minders... and that the show dumbed him down to make room for Team Flash.

[hogwash]

What the heck, Iris?! What the heck, Barry?! All I'm getting from E15 is that Barry's flirty Flash shenanigans with Iris in earlier episodes are the norm when these two are in outside romantic relationships. Apparently, neither of them have any concept of personal space and boundaries when it comes to these things. Iris was in full sabotage mode while Barry completely went along with it. I'm starting to think the only reason Iris got so far with Eddie was because Barry was in a coma. I'm kidding, mostly.

Their oblivious but blatant flirting works so much better than pining Barry and clueless Iris. I kinda wish the show had gone with this dynamic even though both characters came off kinda horrible. "Intimate and close best friends who've known each other for so long that they have no idea how they come off to other people" builds so much better than "every character knows and mentions that Barry is in love with Iris". It also works better than their coffee shop dates where they tell each other how close they are and how well they know each other. Barry and Iris separately mentioning to Linda how much they love bowling/the bowling alley told me so much more about their relationship than all those coffee shop dates. More show less tell, please.

Edited March 18, 2015 by hogwash

[driedfruit]

I'm starting to think the only reason Iris got so far with Eddie was because Barry was in a coma. I'm kidding, mostly.

 

 

Ha, it's true. She told Eddie he was her first serious boyfriend ever.

 

I enjoyed it too. Light, fluffy and fun chemistry is the only kind of romantic interaction I respond to. My favorite part was when she was teasing him about his high school girlfriend. Too adorable. And Candice does all kinds of lovely things with her face and body to sell the sexual tension between them.

Edited March 18, 2015 by driedfruit

[peachmangosteen]

Sadly I still couldn't possibly care less about Barry/Iris and I am just super meh on their chemistry. However, I'm with hogwash, they should've been the way they were in this ep from the beginning. I still wouldn't care about them, but they'd make more sense to me.

 

Joe, Barry, and Eddie lying to Iris has gone past mildy annoying into full on rage inducing at this point. FIX IT, writers!

[phoenics]

Yeah - I can't handle Joe making everyone lie to Iris anymore... it's just exhausting and such a plot device. Like - literally EVERYONE knows. I bet Mason finds out before Iris does.

[In2You]

Iris and Barry have been doing the little flirting/touching thing since day 1 though. It was just alot more obvious in this episode. I can pull gifs off Tumblr of instances where they were obliviously flirting.

[phoenics]

Iris and Barry have been doing the little flirting/touching thing since day 1 though. It was just alot more obvious in this episode. I can pull gifs off Tumblr of instances where they were obliviously flirting.

Well, to everyone else it was flirting - but they were both oblivious (or at least Iris was).

They've been touchy-feely since day one.

[hogwash]

Ha, it's true. She told Eddie he was her first serious boyfriend ever.

Really?! Yikes at these two. But I agree as horrible as the circumstances were, there was finally real spark and intimacy between Barry/Iris. I could actually see their history together and, more importantly, Iris was actually INVOLVED!! Before I got the impression Iris wasn't remotely interested in Barry, which is not a completely horrible starting place for a destined couple (cough, Arrow). But with Iris/Barry's family-like background, Iris's actions came across as a surrogate sister rather than a friend who doesn't how deep her feelings go. The show did nothing to combat that. Until now, of course. The decision to keep her actively outside of both the Flash secret and Barry's romantic feelings (while simultaneously making it obvious to everyone else) is still so dumb. Reset button aside, I hope they still get to obliviously flirt. Or even just show their great history together in ways that seem more like friends/romantic prospects than siblings. That Becky Cooper conversation was adorable! Where that Barry/Iris hiding?

Now I'm even more suspicious of her trying to fix up Barry and Felicity. Isn't Starling City really really far away? I'm onto you, Iris.

Edited March 18, 2015 by hogwash

[statsgirl]

The selfi-centeredness of Barry and especially Iris really turned me off WestAllen in yesterday's episode.   I can more easily forgive Barry because he told Iris and then he tried to move on. But Iris getting interested in Barry only after he told her his feelings and still moving in with Eddie, and then trying to tank the relationship with Linda, ugh.

 

Poor Candice Patton. She's working really hard but Iris is turning into a  Mean Girl, much like Laurel Lance. Is this the only way AK knows how to write love interests?