Relationships: Speed Dating

[Actionmage]

The point folks are making is that Barry Allen as portrayed in the comics - didn't need minders... and that the show dumbed him down to make room for Team Flash.

 

In the comics, ITA, Barry didn't need anyone else because in that media, we can read his thoughts.

 

In this very visual media, and one that uses dialogue. It's better to have other characters to be sounding boards, so we don't end up with not-even-Shakespearean monologues about what they are thinking or feeling. Or worse, tiresome/badly written voice-overs. The writers dumbed Barry down when they didn't have to do that. It is not the fault of Team Flash that Barry is made to seem stupider than he needs to be. I am placing my dissatisfaction on that point at the feet of the folks who are responsible. Characters don't decide what they do, the folks writing scripts do.

[KatWay]

Yeah, but honestly if all they needed was a sounding board, at least they could have made it an interesting sounding board. Caitlin and Cisco could very easily be the same person for all they bring to the show. In my fantasy, C. Frost is played by the Cicsco actor, is a gay dude so we can keep the Firestorm angle. Problem solved and I don't have to watch Danielle Panabaker act anymore.

[phoenics]

In the comics, ITA, Barry didn't need anyone else because in that media, we can read his thoughts.

 

In this very visual media, and one that uses dialogue. It's better to have other characters to be sounding boards, so we don't end up with not-even-Shakespearean monologues about what they are thinking or feeling. Or worse, tiresome/badly written voice-overs. The writers dumbed Barry down when they didn't have to do that. It is not the fault of Team Flash that Barry is made to seem stupider than he needs to be. I am placing my dissatisfaction on that point at the feet of the folks who are responsible. Characters don't decide what they do, the folks writing scripts do.

I don't agree. Other comic shows have managed this without the "Team X" added in (just not on the CW). And I wouldn't have an issue with Team Flash if it wasn't taking away from Barry Allen's own talents.

On Smallville, Clark existed for a time on his own without a "team" and I think what we end up missing is the growth that happens when you have to figure stuff out on your own.

But your point about epic monologues is well taken.

[Sakura12]

What turned me off the Iris/Barry relationship was Iris saying "Did you hear from dad?" Eww, no you don't mention Barry being your brother or the fact that you call the same man dad right before you make out. You stay far far away from mentions of that. 

[phoenics]

What turned me off the Iris/Barry relationship was Iris saying "Did you hear from dad?" Eww, no you don't mention Barry being your brother or the fact that you call the same man dad right before you make out. You stay far far away from mentions of that.

LOL - the show was pretty funny tonight (funny in a "I think the writers are messing with us" way), because they acknowledged the "it's complicated" part of that with an almost "we don't give a d@mn" attitude, lol.

[Xander]

LOL. I also wonder why they kept emphasizing their sibling relationship in this episode. But I've never heard Barry call Joe "Dad." 

 

As for the Barry/Iris shenanigans, I wasn't put off since I suspected this is what was happening in their relationship. I just want them to grow up, get it together and stop dragging innocents into their drama. 

 

I just wonder what Iris's endgame is since she can't handle Barry with another woman but is sticking with Eddie. What does she want? 

[Actionmage]

(From the recap)

 

At work, Bridge tells Iris that Simon Stagg hasn't been seen in six months, and the last person observed leaving his office was Wells!

 

So Simon Stagg is missing for six months as of the episode last night (1.15).

 

Iris has been dating Eddie since, say a month after Barry's coma. That would be about eight months. Add six months, and Moar Sekrets! Because West Family Traditions, and stir in Barry's total inability to speak truthfully to Iris about his feelings for her and people are surprised that we are getting the fireworks we are? 

[phoenics]

LOL. I also wonder why they kept emphasizing their sibling relationship in this episode. But I've never heard Barry call Joe "Dad." 

 

As for the Barry/Iris shenanigans, I wasn't put off since I suspected this is what was happening in their relationship. I just want them to grow up, get it together and stop dragging innocents into their drama. 

 

I just wonder what Iris's endgame is since she can't handle Barry with another woman but is sticking with Eddie. What does she want?

I don't know... Apparently we're getting an episode about the time Barry was in a coma - so hopefully we will get more Iris PoV then...

Plus - the way she confessed - I wonder if she wasn't sure if Barry reciprocated her feelings now (maybe he successfully convinced her that he moved on?).

Yeah - it's not clear what Iris wants. I wouldn't be surprised if the show flipped it around with Iris being the one pining after Barry in S2?

I have no clue.

[CabotCove]

Great. They just had another cheating story, this time with WestAllen, these writers never learn. It will probably be reversed with time travel but still... I dont get this, Candice and Grant had such wonderful chemistry, why is the writing doing this.  Its not easy being a main canon and predestined ship but these two were off to a great start, now they are just going to destroy them. I liked how genuine and nice these characters and their relationship felt not saying they cant have flaws, but this doesn't seem like the characters I thought I knew months ago. Totally acting the opposite, I feel really sorry for Eddie and Linda. 

 

And I wouldn't have an issue with Team Flash if it wasn't taking away from Barry Allen's own talents.

 

What talents are the taking? Barry maybe an intelligent guy but he cannot be good at everything. He is a very gifted forensic scientist, but that doesn't mean he cant have help from other expects who specialize in different fields. I dont think he is supposed to be the smartest guy in the room, he seems quite ordinary when put in the same room as Wells/Cisco/Hartley, which I think is exactly the point. In a way that is supposed to "humanize" him  and make him more "relate-able" imo. He already is the (super) hero of the show, the brawn and he is also smart, but why cant someone else take the title for  the biggest mind(s) in the show. Most shows tend to avoid their lead coming off as a "Gary stu" by not making them be too good at everything. 

Edited March 18, 2015 by Conell

[phoenics]

Barry Allen has always been a superior Forensic Scientist - it's not about making him the smartest guy in the room - it's about not having him turning to Team Flash for stuff that Comic Canon Barry would know how to do in his sleep.

Now - the whole Firestorm thing? Yeah I totally get why they needed Team Flash for that - but for some of the other things, "How fast would I have to go to run up the side of a building?" Barry Allen would know that and a host of other things he inexplicably asks Team Flash about.

[In2You]

Its not like they can even measure how fast he's going or that Caitlin and Cisco can actually give him an accurate number so I dont understand why he constantly calls them with that question.

[Oscirus]

What turned me off the Iris/Barry relationship was Iris saying "Did you hear from dad?" Eww, no you don't mention Barry being your brother or the fact that you call the same man dad right before you make out. You stay far far away from mentions of that.

 

 

Yea, as others have said, now the writers are just messing with us. I do like that when Mason ask Barry if Iris was his friend or sister that Barry made sure to say that she was his friend.

 

Iris has been dating Eddie since, say a month after Barry's coma. That would be about eight months. Add six months, and Moar Sekrets! Because West Family Traditions, and stir in Barry's total inability to speak truthfully to Iris about his feelings for her and people are surprised that we are getting the fireworks we are?

 

 

I think she's been dating Eddie since Barry was in the coma actually. She was just being secretive about it back then. Now that I think about it, maybe Iris keeping that secret about dating Eddie is the reason that Joe keeps so many secrets from her. Revenge!

 

Its not like they can even measure how fast he's going or that Caitlin and Cisco can actually give him an accurate number so I dont understand why he constantly calls them with that question.

 

 

I think that's more about letting us, the audience know that he's going so fast that he's breaking previous records. Though it is kind of weird that Caitlin is always the naysayer whenever he calls with that question.

 

[driedfruit]

Great. They just had another cheating story, this time with WestAllen, these writers never learn. It will probably be reversed with time travel but still... I dont get this, Candice and Grant had such wonderful chemistry, why is the writing doing this.  Its not easy being a main canon and predestined ship but these two were off to a great start, now they are just going to destroy them. I liked how genuine and nice these characters and their relationship felt not saying they cant have flaws, but this doesn't seem like the characters I thought I knew months ago. Totally acting the opposite, I feel really sorry for Eddie and Linda.

 

I can't fault Iris for cheating when she didn't think there was gonna be a relationship with Eddie in a few minutes. And Barry was dating Linda for all of five minutes. It was bad behaviour, sure. But not beyond awful IMO.

Edited March 19, 2015 by driedfruit

[Shanna]

I can't fault Iris for cheating when she didn't think there was gonna be a relationship with Eddie in a few minutes. And Barry was dating Linda for all of five minutes. It was bad behaviour, sure. But not beyond awful IMO.

Well cheating is still cheating although I also thought it was weird that she didn't seem to be thinking about her dad at all. I think her 'you should totally dump Linda' conversation was a bigger problem because that had nothing to do with life or death and it very much felt like she wanted to keep Barry and Eddie on the hook and that not fair to either.

[driedfruit]

Well cheating is still cheating although I also thought it was weird that she didn't seem to be thinking about her dad at all.

 

 

I disagree. Context matters.

 

And Iris didn't forget her dad. She just realized that she was about to die and there was nothing she could do about anything anymore except to stay with Barry and die together. 

 

I think her 'you should totally dump Linda' conversation was a bigger problem because that had nothing to do with life or death

 

She was jealous, but it's not like she was forcing Barry to break up with Linda at gun point.

 

Besides, Barry and Linda are really ill fit, so she's really telling the truth. 

[Lokiberry]

Team Flash gives Barry a variety of relationships, and more material for the writers to work with. Team Flash allows Wells betrayal to be explored in different ways. Would it have as much impact if he was just creeping on Barry? The very real menace that he poses to Cisco and Caitlyn ups the stakes because the audience cares about them too.

 

The Flash isn't just about Barry, anymore than Arrow is just about Oliver. Supporting characters are introduced and explored, because (imho), it makes for a fuller, richer show than if it was just the Flash goes out saves the day, comes back and flirts with Iris. Having these other characters allows for a level of world-building that probably wouldn't happen if it was just the Flash, his girlfriend and their dad.

 

The Flash is an ensemble show, with a lead, just like Arrow. Until they throw Barry off a cliff and have him presumed dead for multiple episodes, I don't have a problem with that.

[Sakura12]

Exactly, I'm not watching this show for a ship or just to see what's in the comics on screen. If I wanted to see that I could just pick up the comics. A tv show has to be different and give people a wide variety of characters to care about for 20 - 23 episodes. A comic book only takes about 2 minutes to read, I'm watching a show for 40 minutes I need more content. 

Barry's team gives him that content, Barry interacting and talking with other's gives him that content. 

[bettername2come]

I like Team Flash. I feel like this season has set up some good foundations that are going to be shaken once everyone knows the truth. I'm looking forward to seeing these characters grow once Wells' betrayal is revealed and they have to step up and do the superhero thing on their own. There's been times where I've felt Wells was holding them back in that regard, possibly purposefully.

[Sakura12]

I think that's what makes me like Team Flash right now too. I know unlike Team Arrow that there is going to be a huge shake up with the team. They have two possible super villains and another hero on their team. Anything can happen. 

[In2You]

Exactly, I'm not watching this show for a ship or just to see what's in the comics on screen. If I wanted to see that I could just pick up the comics. A tv show has to be different and give people a wide variety of characters to care about for 20 - 23 episodes. A comic book only takes about 2 minutes to read, I'm watching a show for 40 minutes I need more content. 

Barry's team gives him that content, Barry interacting and talking with other's gives him that content. 

They have 33 years worth of Barry Allen stories to get material from. Lets not pretend he need a team to have an interesting show.

[Sakura12]

Why would I want to watch them show exactly what's in the comics? That was my point, if I wanted to see that I could just pick up a comic. And again, a comic book is a different medium that takes 2 minutes to get through. They need content to fill up 40 minutes 20 - 23 times. They can't copy a comic book they don't have enough information.  

Edited March 19, 2015 by Sakura12

[KatWay]

I'd be fine with them diverging from the comics if they did it in an interesting way, but so far I find Team Flash pretty boring and redundant. I'd be more interested if Barry perhaps only had Wells to rely upon, so they'd be actually close which would make the betrayal more shocking. Honestly I know the shake up is coming but I'm not really seeing any deep emotional connections between Wells and any of them. Some respect and admiration, but no more than you would have for a friendly colleague.

[Oscirus]

Team Flash gives Barry a variety of relationships, and more material for the writers to work with. Team Flash allows Wells betrayal to be explored in different ways. Would it have as much impact if he was just creeping on Barry? The very real menace that he poses to Cisco and Caitlyn ups the stakes because the audience cares about them too.

 

Or they could just be Barry's friends and you can have the same aspects explored. Wells could provide just as much menace towards Barry's friends and that would be more scary because now he's going after people who aren't equipped to deal with such a threat. If they insist upon forcing the team aspect, at least give Caitlin something else to do then being the personal physician/ naysayer of the team.

 

The Flash isn't just about Barry, anymore than Arrow is just about Oliver.

 

 

Actually, it is. It's about the lives and time of the title character. Everybody else is around to affect the title character's life in one way or the other.

 

 

A comic book only takes about 2 minutes to read, I'm watching a show for 40 minutes I need more content.

Barry's team gives him that content, Barry interacting and talking with other's gives him that content.

 

 

Which is why the show delves more into the lives and relationships of the protagonist. If anything the team aspect invites more arrow comparisons which is something that this show should be going away from by now.

[FurryFury]

I'm fine with Team Flash as a concept, but I'm not really feeling them the way I've felt Team Arrow (the original one). I agree that their relationships with Wells aren't as well-written as they should be - when Wells told Cisco he's like a son to him, I was all "WTF, this hasn't been shown at all".

[Shanna]

I'm fine with Team Flash as a concept, but I'm not really feeling them the way I've felt Team Arrow (the original one). I agree that their relationships with Wells aren't as well-written as they should be - when Wells told Cisco he's like a son to him, I was all "WTF, this hasn't been shown at all".

I agree that team flash doesn't seem as well developed to me as team arrow, but I disagree about the wells thing. Maybe 'like a son' was a bit much but I definitely bought the mentor vibe and the general emotions in that scene. I think I was enjoying the team vibe more before Christmas for some reason?

I do agree that barry hasn't really been growing but I don't think that is because he has a team. I think arrow is a great example of how you can grow your main character as part of a team. Of course, this show some of it may be purposeful because wells only wants Barry to develop in certain ways?

[FurryFury]

Maybe 'like a son' was a bit much but I definitely bought the mentor vibe and the general emotions in that scene.

 

The level of the emotions didn't correspond to the relationship that was shown up to this moment. I'd buy West telling something like this to Barry, but not Cisco. As it is, it felt like telling rather than showing, something the show's consistently guilty of.

[Miss Dee]

I figured "you're like a son" wasn't meant as a literal truth so much as a way for Wells to get Cisco to doubt he was going to harm him. If he could get Cisco to still see him as a father figure who cared about him, then Cisco might hesitate to act instead of diving for cover or a ray gun or something.

[FurryFury]

I didn't get an impression Wells was afraid of him. It was more like he relished getting everything off his chest and out in the open. He was never in real danger, considering his abilities.

[bettername2come]

I don't think he was trying to convince Cisco he wouldn't hurt him. Otherwise he wouldn't have been so obvious about how he was going to kill him. He would've jumped on Cisco's helping plan then stabbed him in the back. Cisco knew what was happening. He was alone with a murderous speedster with all his toys out of reach. I think Wells meant it as much as he's capable of meaning it, but I'm kind of getting a sociopath vibe from him. And I think Wells was surprised that Cisco meant something to him.

[Shanna]

The level of the emotions didn't correspond to the relationship that was shown up to this moment. I'd buy West telling something like this to Barry, but not Cisco. As it is, it felt like telling rather than showing, something the show's consistently guilty of.

Wells has known Cisco longer than Barry (in this timeline I guess, don't know about the future). He tried to kill Barry in the past so I wouldn't have bought that relationship between them. Wells is using Barry. He hired Cisco and watched him grow over the years.

I thought the way we saw Cisco process the fact that he was going to die and there was nothing he could do was very moving. It's one of the few dramatic moments that I actually was sold on.

I don't think he was trying to convince Cisco he wouldn't hurt him. Otherwise he wouldn't have been so obvious about how he was going to kill him. He would've jumped on Cisco's helping plan then stabbed him in the back. Cisco knew what was happening. He was alone with a murderous speedster with all his toys out of reach. I think Wells meant it as much as he's capable of meaning it, but I'm kind of getting a sociopath vibe from him. And I think Wells was surprised that Cisco meant something to him.

Yes, that's how I took it as well. Edited March 19, 2015 by Shanna

[Sakura12]

I don't think he was trying to convince Cisco he wouldn't hurt him. Otherwise he wouldn't have been so obvious about how he was going to kill him. He would've jumped on Cisco's helping plan then stabbed him in the back. Cisco knew what was happening. He was alone with a murderous speedster with all his toys out of reach. I think Wells meant it as much as he's capable of meaning it, but I'm kind of getting a sociopath vibe from him. And I think Wells was surprised that Cisco meant something to him.

 

I agree, I don't think Wells realized that he cared for Cisco until he knew he had to kill him. We can also go with the old standby of Cisco reminding Eobard of himself when he was younger. 

[CabotCove]

They have 33 years worth of Barry Allen stories to get material from. Lets not pretend he need a team to have an interesting show.

 

And lets not pretend that this show is 33 years old or that this Barry is the same age and experienced as the one in comics.

 

The level of the emotions didn't correspond to the relationship that was shown up to this moment. I'd buy West telling something like this to Barry, but not Cisco. As it is, it felt like telling rather than showing, something the show's consistently guilty of.

 

I for one buy it more with Cisco, he has known Cisco a lot longer, Wells gave Cisco a head start to his career and has believed in his abilities even when Cisco didn't for himself. He took him under his wing and molded him into a super scientist. I think he really respects Cisco, probably see his younger self in him. With the new revelation that Wells wanted to kill Kid Barry, it looks like he always viewed Barry as an enemy/nuisance and was just using him for his speed. I think its going to really hit Barry the hardest, as much as Wells has betrayed all of them, at least with the other two (Cisco/Caitlin) it might be possible their relationship with him wasn't all a lie. 

Edited March 20, 2015 by Conell

[In2You]

Why would I want to watch them show exactly what's in the comics? That was my point, if I wanted to see that I could just pick up a comic. And again, a comic book is a different medium that takes 2 minutes to get through. They need content to fill up 40 minutes 20 - 23 times. They can't copy a comic book they don't have enough information.  

You do realize this currently storyline is based one from the comics right? Why watch a comic book show is you don't care about the comics?

[Sakura12]

If there is no Team Flash in the comics then they are not following the comics exactly. They are taking parts of the comics and changing other parts so I'm not watching what's happened in the comics, I'm watching a tv show based on the comics. 

Edited March 20, 2015 by Sakura12

[driedfruit]

My main issue with Team Flash was that it was getting boring and repetitive, and last episode completely turned that on its head. Now that we know how dangerous Wells is, and how close everyone is to finding out the truth, the tension is amped up to max. I'm nervous thinking about how Cisco and Co. will fare, even knowing they've got plot armour. Then there are the expendables like Mason who I don't want to see go. 

 

Putting that aside, the one relationship within Team Flash that I've always been most intrigued by--also the one that's gotten the least amount of attention--is Cisco/Barry. I really hope the show shifts some of the focus from Caitlin to Cisco a bit, and develops them beyond indignant "You lied!" and cute one liners.  

[Oscirus]

The level of the emotions didn't correspond to the relationship that was shown up to this moment. I'd buy West telling something like this to Barry, but not Cisco. As it is, it felt like telling rather than showing, something the show's consistently guilty of.

 

I'm pretty sure that they had him say that to use for the trailer.  The one thing that we did see which was of interest was that by trying to protect himself from Barry that Cisco unknowingly built a weapon that could bring about Eobard's downfall.

[Shanna]

You do realize this currently storyline is based one from the comics right? Why watch a comic book show is you don't care about the comics?

A lot of people don't give a damn about reading comics but will watch shows and movies based on them. The medium of moving pictures is completely different and you can do different things with it. Comics adaptations are a but like book adaptations. You take some basics, story characters etc. and you do your own thing.

My biggest concern is if I buy what you're doing. This show gets pretty mixed marks.

Also, good point about Barry creating something that could hurt wells. Wasn't wells really scary angry about that? I do like that there is payoff about that.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Shanna

[Xander]

Cisco will obviously not die in the new timeline so I'm interested in how the truth about Wells will slowly unravel and how the dynamics of the team will change when everyone suspects him but are too scared or unable to reveal it. How will they work with him knowing that he's a metahuman villain? 

[Grace19]

Team flash is okay, it would be better without caitlin, her actress is horrible. Cisco, barry and wells are great. If they add firestorm and iris to bring intel the team would be outstanding.

[driedfruit]

The Flash is an ensemble show, with a lead, just like Arrow. Until they throw Barry off a cliff and have him presumed dead for multiple episodes, I don't have a problem with that.

 

I wouldn't consider Flash an ensemble right now. If you compare how rich Laurel's, Diggs', Thea's, Moira's, etc. lives were even back in the first season of Arrow to how little consideration any of the secondaries over at Flash get, you'll see the difference. 

Edited March 22, 2015 by driedfruit

[peachmangosteen]

But is it supposed to be an ensemble is my question. The writing doesn't really support that it is, but that might just be because it's weak writing. I sure hope it's more of an ensemble show because I'm not down for a show solely about Barry since he's pretty far down on my fave characters list.

[Xander]

I think that right now, Barry is the main character while the others support. It's his story, it's his journey, it's the reason he's the only one who will remember what happened in Episode 15. Sure, we get to learn about the other characters with Firestorm and what not but it's still primarily about Barry. It might become more of an ensemble show in future seasons when Cisco and Caitlin begin their own metahuman journeys and other speedsters get added. 

[Oscirus]

This is a story of the lives and times of Barry Allen. Everybody else is only there to serve Barry's story. So, no it's not an ensemble piece.

 

Team flash is okay, it would be better without caitlin, her actress is horrible.

 

I doubt it. The Flash is enough of a sausage party without removing the only other girl in the cast. If anything I'd argue that the one thing this show needs is an older female character.

[KatWay]

Then they should replace Caitlin with Linda permanently, at least Malese Jow can act. An older female character would be good too.

[driedfruit]

It's too bad there are no plans to bring in Iris' mother. But perhaps they could actually play around with the timeline enough to resurrect Barry's mom, and cost him Henry in the process. 

[peachmangosteen]

Do we have any info on Iris's mother? I can't recall if she's ever been mentioned. I mean, I assume we know about her from the comics, but has the show touched on her at all?

[Xander]

Even Jesse and Candice know nothing about Iris's mother. The only time she's been mentioned so far was when Barry gave Iris the ring. 

Edited March 23, 2015 by Xander

[Shanna]

I always assumed her mother died of cancer or something.

[Oscirus]

I always assumed that the mom died in a violent enough fashion that Joe has a reason to be this ridiculously protective over her.

[bettername2come]

Mom's a cop who died in the line of duty, hence Joe didn't want Iris to be a cop?

(Doubt that's it, but it would make sense.)