Relationships: Speed Dating

[Oscirus]

I keep reading about felicity being a unique character but the fact is that she's pretty much exactly like Penelope from criminal minds. It's just not as funny when the nerdy tech is flirting with someone who actually isn't out of her league. Hence why she was bumped up to romantic lead.

 

I disagree that they're trying to make another felicity. Caitlin's problem is that she's not written consistently. One minute she's the dark serious member desperately trying to get Barry and Cisco on board and the next minute she's playing along with their shenanigans. There has to be a happy medium

[wayne67]

 

I disagree that they're trying to make another felicity. Caitlin's problem is that she's not written consistently. One minute she's the dark serious member desperately trying to get Barry and Cisco on board and the next minute she's playing along with their shenanigans. There has to be a happy medium

 

ITA Caitlin went from grieving Ronnie to searching him out desperately to being kind of blase about him returning from his presumed death. She's another character I don't get but at the very least her role in the Flash Gang dilutes her overall importance so I don't spend much time having to think about it, unlike Iris.

[driedfruit]

I wonder if some of the issues people are having with Barry as a character would have been negated if they just used Wally West instead. Because their Barry here is acting an awful lot like what I remember of Wally.

 

I don't think this Barry is that much like Wally, aside from the immaturity. He's too awkward dorky, not really fun-lovingly goofy (personality wise, Cisco's more like Wally than anyone). I would've loved to have Wally, but I'm happy with Barry and really excited for his potential. 

 

I would love to see a Linda Park/Iris West friendship... especially given canon. Who knows if they will go there with Wally West, but I'd still like to see Linda and Iris be friends... I don't hold much hope for that happening though. I'm learning from all of you that the CW isn't really about that... sighs.

 

 

That's not true. CW shows are made for a majority female audience so they have a lot of female interaction, friendship/family/antagonistic and they regularly show girls getting dressed/shopping/partying together. I'm assuming Flash is trying to attract a bigger male audience so that's why they've had a total of three scenes of women interacting without a male character present and why they never show us any scenes of Iris living her life, and no scenes of the girls' living situations unless it's a romantic scene (or ship tease). 

Edited February 17, 2015 by driedfruit

[FurryFury]

Arrow had way more female characters and female interaction - 4 female regulars in season 1 and basically 5 (Sara had a lot of screentime) in season 2. Some of this interaction sucked, though (Laurel/Sara was a clusterfuck), but at least they tried. On The Flash, they don't even try with girls, they are both nowhere near as central and developed, so far. I hope they'll add someone in s2. Preferably NOT a love interest for Barry.

Edited February 17, 2015 by FurryFury

[Oscirus]

Have they even passed the bechdel test on any of their shows? It kind of blows my mind that I have to ask that.

[FurryFury]

Yeah, Arrow had Laurel and her friend (Joanna, I think?), Moira and Thea, Moira and Felicity, Sara and Felicity, Sara and Laurel, there was enough of that. I think they passed in even in the pilot, actually. And while they've totally fucked up with Laurel, other characters were mostly mediocre-to-well-written. At least until s3, I've heard bad things about that.

Edited February 17, 2015 by FurryFury

[driedfruit]

Have they even passed the bechdel test on any of their shows? It kind of blows my mind that I have to ask that.

 

Most CW shows easily pass it, and probably every episode of Arrow in seasons 1-2. 

 

But I don't think a single episode of Flash has passed the test as the handful of conversations we've got between female characters has always been about a guy. 

But there are new filming picture of Iris and Caitlin on some mission together involving a little girl, so hopefully the show is improving a little in that department.

Edited February 17, 2015 by driedfruit

[Shanna]

Yeah, Arrow had Laurel and her friend (Joanna, I think?), Moira and Thea, Moira and Felicity, Sara and Felicity, Sara and Laurel, there was enough of that. I think they passed in even in the pilot, actually. And while they've totally fucked up with Laurel, other characters were mostly mediocre-to-well-written. At least until s3, I've heard bad things about that.

Arrow had a ton of excellent female characters. It's unfortunate that so many were killed off but still. Flash is still kind of lacking but part of it is we have two dads and no moms (Moira). And we have no awesome flashback shado and Katsu types either. And then everybody at everyone's job is male and we have no siblings. Honestly I feel like arrow started with a much richer world than the flash which is part of why I am still more invested in it.

[FurryFury]

Arrow was also less focused on its hero and more of the world around him. I mean, Starling City felt like a character, especially in the first season. With Flash, it's like Barry and co exist in a vacuum. Part of it is that he isn't a well-known billionaire, yes, but Central City is just so... bland. Actually, a lot of stuff on the show feels rather tame and bland. 

 

I'm also more invested in Arrow, despite not watching it - I mean, I still mourn the awesome characters that were senselessly killed, but for a short time in season 2, that show so was so GOOD. I hope the Flash could recapture that awesomeness, but for a longer time.

Edited February 17, 2015 by FurryFury

[Sakura12]

The CW loves the drama of a triangle so they pit the girls against each other over the guy. Arrow had a bunch of strong women but they barely showed them building a relationship. Everything had to be fanwanked to make them friends. 

 

I'm hoping we can see Iris and Linda be friends or Caitlin and Iris, without it being about Barry. But this is show written by males that want to attract a male audience, so the girls will always be fawning all over the main hero. 

Edited February 17, 2015 by Sakura12

[Trini]

Iris and Linda are both pretty awful.

 

Iris tries to sabotage Barry's happiness while getting off on the idea that he's hung up on her.

 

Linda's pushy and self-important; not only that, she stands there and dares Barry to eat a pepper which she acknowledges a minute later "could have killed" him.

 

Aren't there any nice girls in Central City?

 

Of course, everyone is free to like or not like whichever character, but I don't think these statements are true.

 

Iris made a mistake, but she wasn't trying to sabotage Barry. And he was hung up on Iris and admitted as much to her.

 

As for Linda, you say 'pushy', I say 'go-getter'. I like that she knows what she wants and goes for it. And the pepper thing was all Barry's stupid idea.

Edited February 20, 2015 by Trini

[driedfruit]

For me the weakest aspect of the show is the dynamic within Star Labs, and the added focus they got 1.10-14 only exacerbated how little I'm invested in those relationships.

 

Arrow has its problems, but Oliver's initial recruiting of Diggs and Felicity and later, Roy, were meaningful. They set up these difficult relationships that had to thaw over time, but ones with the potential to grow in interesting ways.

 

Meanwhile, Star Labs are like a pre-packaged boy band. Barry got landed with them and outside of a few minor bumps, they get along just fine. I have a really soft spot for Cisco, but I can't say I'm invested in his relationship with Caitlin or Barry. They have nice chemistry, but more than that? Eh. Same goes for Caitlin. The writing for her is inconsistent, so I'm not even sure about her relationship to Barry on an episode basis.

 

Wells is the only stand out, but no one bats an eye at his shady business (like roofing Stein's drink, how the heck did that not come up?) so he gets watered down to comedy. And his admittance of wrongs are quickly forgiven and never mentioned again, instead of the interesting alternative of creating a dynamic of mistrust and undercurrents of tension within the group where the members actually start questioning even the seemingly innocent things he does. 

 

The outstanding procedurals have intriguing and constantly evolving relationships at the heart of them. And I just don't see any of that here. 

Edited February 19, 2015 by driedfruit

[peachmangosteen]

I love the Star Labs crew. Cisco/Caitlin is my fave relationship in the show.

 

But it is interesting that you mention they've gotten increased focus since the pre mid-season finale as I think this half of the season has been much worse than the first half. Maybe the increased focus on the Star Labs crew has something to do with how bad the writing has gotten for most of the characters.

Edited February 20, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[driedfruit]

Maybe the increased focus on the Star Labs crew has something to do with how bad the writing has gotten for most of the characters.

 

 

Barry is the only one being written worse IMO. Cisco is actually getting a little more developed in this half, and starting to seem more like a character than just comic relief. And Caitlin always got wishy washy writing.  

 

The problem I see is that the relationships within Star Labs aren't changing in meaningful ways to warrant the added focus. And things that happen that should be progressing and changing their dynamics haven't yet. 

Edited February 20, 2015 by driedfruit

[Enero]

  

 

The problem I see is that the relationships within Star Labs aren't changing in meaningful ways to warrant the added focus. And things that happen that should be progressing and changing their dynamics haven't yet. 

 

Good point. There have been some missed opportunities to develop something interesting and complex with the STAR Labs crew. I thought sure Caitlyn would be more upset about Wells turning on the PC after being warned about it's danger. After all, she lost the love of her life to the blast, but nothing came of it. She was angry for 5 seconds, then it was back to business as usual. Though it came out of nowhere, Barry called Wells out about releasing Tony knowing that he would be killed by Blackout, but then quickly backed off after Wells claimed he felt guilt over the PC disaster and was able to recite the names of all the individuals who he knew were killed by the blast. I'd also think that someone on the crew would start to become suspicious of so many of Wells' former acquaintances either hating him or gunning for him but no one blinks an eye over this. It would certainly make Joe's (and perhaps even Iris') investigations more interesting if Barry was starting to have some reservations about Wells due to some of the questionable things he's seen about the man, instead he continues to insist that Wells is completely trustworthy.

 

Also, how interesting would it have been if there had been some disagreements about which meta humans go into the PC prison and which are worthy of rehabilitation. I think we can all agree that there have at least been a couple of them that weren't evil, but just a little misguided and could actually be of good use with some positive reinforcements. But again, nothing. Everyone ushers the metahumans they capture to the PC prison with no qualms about it, sometimes even with a smile on their faces.

 

Like you, though we see Team Flash working together, I don't feel a deep connection between them like Team Arrow.  Trust was there from pretty much jump and they almost never have disagreements. Pre-packaged boy band was a great analogy for Team Flash.

Edited February 20, 2015 by Enero

[bettername2come]

The problem I see is that the relationships within Star Labs aren't changing in meaningful ways to warrant the added focus. And things that happen that should be progressing and changing their dynamics haven't yet.

 

I've been thinking for awhile now that the Wells reveal will add some depth to the Star Labs crew. I'm wondering if that's why they've had more focus now, so that the aftermath of the team discovering Wells is shady will mean more. Cisco and Caitlin were awfully forgiving after they discovered Wells knew the particle accelerator would blow, but I've got to figure even they have their limits. I'm hoping to see them break away from Wells and see them taking things more seriously and taking ownership of the work they're doing. It's like, this superhero thing was their idea, but Wells keeps stepping in and treating them like children (although, granted, they do act like it sometimes).

 

I've liked what we've seen of the increased interactions at Star Labs, although honestly I think I would watch an episode where all the characters just sat around eating Big Belly Burger, hugging and fist bumping. I'm a sucker for all character combinations on this show. I think 10 and 12 were weak episodes, but the other post-break episodes I've enjoyed. One thing I've decided about the team dynamic is that Ronnie/Caitlin/Cisco had their own special bond, and I've gotten the feeling that Caitlin and Cisco were kind of letting Barry fill that gap while he was gone.

[wayne67]

Good point. There have been some missed opportunities to develop something interesting and complex with the STAR Labs crew. I thought sure Caitlyn would be more upset about Wells turning on the PC after being warned about it's danger. After all, she lost the love of her life to the blast, but nothing came of it. She was angry for 5 seconds, then it was back to business as usual. Though it came out of nowhere, Barry called Wells out about releasing Tony knowing that he would be killed by Blackout, but then quickly backed off after Wells claimed he felt guilt over the PC disaster and was able to recite the names of all the individuals who he knew were killed by the blast. I'd also think that someone on the crew would start to become suspicious of so many of Wells' former acquaintances either hating him or gunning for him but no one blinks an eye over this. It would certainly make Joe's (and perhaps even Iris') investigations more interesting if Barry was starting to have some reservations about Wells due to some of the questionable things he's seen about the man, instead he continues to insist that Wells is completely trustworthy.

 

Also, how interesting would it have been if there had been some disagreements about which meta humans go into the PC prison and which are worthy of rehabilitation. I think we can all agree that there have at least been a couple of them that weren't evil, but just a little misguided and could actually be of good use with some positive reinforcements. But again, nothing. Everyone ushers the metahumans they capture to the PC prison with no qualms about it, sometimes even with a smile on their faces.

 

Like you, though we see Team Flash working together, I don't feel a deep connection between them like Team Arrow.  Trust was there from pretty much jump and they almost never have disagreements. Pre-packaged boy band was a great analogy for Team Flash.

 

 

Thank you for eloquently explaining my issues as of late with the Star Labs Gang. Everything they do has little impact on their relationships or interactions with each other. It's like watching an action adventure sitcom with technobabble BS to explain the nonsense. It's hard to invest in these characters when their interactions seem so inconsistent and incoherent and is often ignored by the next episode as if it never happened or their actions have little meaning to their day to day lives.

 

For instance I'm told Barry loves Iris, I don't know when this supposedly happened or why he's been holding onto it forever but he gets around to confessing it and it seems to have little impact on any of their relationships. There should be some awkwardness and disruption within the family unit when Iris tells her father but it doesn't have any long lasting impact on anything possibly because Iris doesn't trust Joe to keep it to himself or for other reasons but it all stays below the surface. I guess they could be going for some sort of subtlety but judging by the Metahuman prison and the lack of awareness of any of the supposedly moral characters about it's ongoing nature I feel a complete disconnect. I want to like this show but all the relationships feel fairly shallow and superficial.

[driedfruit]

For instance I'm told Barry loves Iris, I don't know when this supposedly happened or why he's been holding onto it forever but he gets around to confessing it and it seems to have little impact on any of their relationships. There should be some awkwardness and disruption within the family unit when Iris tells her father but it doesn't have any long lasting impact on anything possibly because Iris doesn't trust Joe to keep it to himself or for other reasons but it all stays below the surface. I guess they could be going for some sort of subtlety but judging by the Metahuman prison and the lack of awareness of any of the supposedly moral characters about it's ongoing nature I feel a complete disconnect. I want to like this show but all the relationships feel fairly shallow and superficial.

 

 

Iris/Barry/Joe are a whole different issue since they've had a total of 2 minutes of group interaction and just 1-2 brief scenes each with Barry over the past 4 episodes. Whether their family dynamic has changed or not is impossible to say, as that story is just not being told. Whereas Star Labs have had 4 episodes dedicated to their dynamics, and yet little to no progress in any one direction. 

Edited February 20, 2015 by driedfruit

[wayne67]

Iris/Barry/Joe are a whole different issue since they've had a total of 2 minutes of group interaction and just 1-2 brief scenes each with Barry over the past 4 episodes. Whether their family dynamic has changed or not is impossible to say, as that story is just not being told. Whereas Star Labs have had 4 episodes dedicated to their dynamics, and yet little to no progress in any one direction. 

 

It feels like everything is happening in some sort of weird nonsensical vacuum of repetition and Wells is the Flash Mob's Cult leader that they have blind unwavering faith and devotion in ...

Edited February 20, 2015 by wayne67

[Cirien]

Good point. There have been some missed opportunities to develop something interesting and complex with the STAR Labs crew. I thought sure Caitlyn would be more upset about Wells turning on the PC after being warned about it's danger. After all, she lost the love of her life to the blast, but nothing came of it. She was angry for 5 seconds, then it was back to business as usual. Though it came out of nowhere, Barry called Wells out about releasing Tony knowing that he would be killed by Blackout, but then quickly backed off after Wells claimed he felt guilt over the PC disaster and was able to recite the names of all the individuals who he knew were killed by the blast. I'd also think that someone on the crew would start to become suspicious of so many of Wells' former acquaintances either hating him or gunning for him but no one blinks an eye over this. It would certainly make Joe's (and perhaps even Iris') investigations more interesting if Barry was starting to have some reservations about Wells due to some of the questionable things he's seen about the man, instead he continues to insist that Wells is completely trustworthy.

 

Re: Harrison's fellow scientists seeming to hate him, I really don't think that would raise any eyebrows. They're his rivals .Given the field he's in and how incredibly competitive it seems, not to mention the fact that he seemingly appeared out of nowhere (which should and did raise an eyebrow from Joe) I think all of the interactions,  with which seem antagonistic can be put down just that. Rivalry.  

 

Caitlyn is a difficult one. But again just because there was a *possibility* (and we don't know how big that possibility that it was) I think the scientist part  (this is my head canon for why Danielle is wooden but she's really not good in the role) of her was like  "Well he wuld be where he is if he didn't take risks sometimes. Sure this was a HUGE but what if it didn't explode?"

[FurryFury]

I'm pretty sure that everyone trusts Wells so much simply for his (seeming) betrayal to be a bigger shock for them. But the writing really needed to explain this trust and devotion better, show, not tell. Maybe explore their individual relationships with Wells better, let us learn why exactly they believe in him so much. Still, overall, I don't mind this aspect of the show that much. I guess it has to do with my love for Wells.

[Oscirus]

You guys said better then I could ever hope to but I'll try to add in something new. The biggest problem in regards to the lab is theres no conflict.  Other then Wells' shadiness, the biggest conflict  during the second half of the season has been whether or not Cisco would  be forgiven for locking Ronnie in.  And that was basically a non-issue since nobody was even mad at him for that..

 

Even in the first half their were barely any issues. Other then the creation of the cold gun which caused conflict for like half an episode. 

 

It's not like they haven't had their opportunities. Barry tells Caitlin he's not her dead fiancée and nothing comes of that, Cisco releases a dangerous criminal back into the world and everybody just shrugs, you guys have outlined Wells' numerous shady activities that were basically ignored.

 

Hell even the lab dissenter ( Caitlin)  gets ignored and called a stick in the mud. Compare that to Arrow where there have been actual debates on the philosophical differences that team arrow had. 

 

[driedfruit]

The lack of conflict and direction really does make it seem like we're watching pointless variations of the same scenes over and over. As much as I enjoy the visuals and the comic book cheese, the show's been getting boring lately because I know nothing that happens will effect Star Labs in a meaningful way in the near future. I don't even get gleeful over Wells being shady, since I know it's inconsequential. And we've seen it all five-hundred times already. 

 

I know the show is supposed to be lighthearted and fun, but staleness isn't really enjoyable. The better cartoons set up way more interesting dynamics amongst their core characters than what we're getting right now with Star Labs.

Edited February 20, 2015 by driedfruit

[peachmangosteen]

I've liked what we've seen of the increased interactions at Star Labs, although honestly I think I would watch an episode where all the characters just sat around eating Big Belly Burger, hugging and fist bumping. I'm a sucker for all character combinations on this show.

 

Same! And this is probably why, even though I definitely think the writing has problems and the characters aren't really getting developed, I still love this show a lot. I love these people. All of them. I have fun watching them interact.

[SevenStars]

I feel like the writers are making all the characters bland and stupidly trusting so that they can show how smart Dr.Wells is. It's like no matter what Dr.Wells does that is questionable and reason for these characters to look further into him, they still don't. Most of them blindly follow him and those who question him sometimes are quickly appeased by a few simple words or actions from him. I think the writers are doing this in order to make Dr. Wells an interesting character, but instead it is making him and everyone around him boring to me because he is not being challenge at all. So there is no tension, no real development of the characters, nothing to really root for any of the characters. 

 

The writers are probably doing this so the blow-out when they discover who Dr.Wells can be all big, but it is just making me not want to continue watching the show because there is nothing for me to invest in. 

[Carrie Ann]

I don't really have a problem with there not being a lot of conflict with the STAR Labs group in Season 1, because they're still becoming a team, and the show hasn't done enough work building their bonds to really earn the emotion to be wrung out of conflict. Like, it was hard for me to feel much when it came to the Cisco/Ronnie thing, because it's been all tell when it comes to C/C/R. I haven't been shown enough of it, in-show.

 

I just wish I was more interested in any of the individual relationships within the Flash Mob, the way I was with every side of the Oliver/Diggle/Felicity team in S1 and 2. (Sorry to compare to Arrow, but it relates to that great Boy Band observation above.) I think the writers are trying--they show these scenes of the team doing social stuff, and learning about each other, and having little moments of conflict that are pretty quickly resolved. I'm fine with all of that, I just can't bring myself to care much about those relationships for whatever reason.

[Shanna]

I haven't seen enough of Ronnie's connection to anyone to care about him. All this firestorm stuff is falling flat for me. Cisco/Caitlin is the friendship I am most invested in at this point.

[phoenics]

The lack of conflict and direction really does make it seem like we're watching pointless variations of the same scenes over and over.

I agree. I think this is because the show created the Star Labs crew to be a copy of the oh so successful Arrow crew and it's not as necessary with The Flash. I get it that the show wanted that narrative - but it actually seems to just be a plot vehicle rather than something to actually make the characters drive the plot... unless Wells is the only character who drives plot that matters.

The rest of them just react to him according to the plot the writers want to push.

[cynic]

I think you guys are right that the show has changed somehow in the second half of the season. I'm not enjoying it as much, nor am I nearly as invested. Part of it is just personal preference. I didn't read the comics and I don't normally watch superhero things, so the excitement over various villains showing up, Firestorm, and Grood is totally lost on me. I think that the show leans too much on that excitement instead of concentrating on good writing. The show's become pretty repetitive and the character development isn't great. Also, the increased focus on team Flash is boring to me, because I don't enjoy either Caitlin or Cisco. I love Wells though and he's pretty much the only thing that saves those scenes for me. I also loved the early season scenes with Barry and Iris and especially with the Flash and Iris. The change in those relationships and the decrease in focus on them has made me realize how flat I find a lot of the rest of the show. At least there's still Joe and his relationship with Barry to enjoy. Plus, Grant Gustin's charm goes a long way. However, if the powers that be keep going for cheap writing like the jealousy plot and drunk girls in their bras, I don't think even Grant's charm will save things for me.

[driedfruit]

The writers are probably doing this so the blow-out when they discover who Dr.Wells can be all big, but it is just making me not want to continue watching the show because there is nothing for me to invest in. 

 

I'm losing my incentive to watch too, and I'm a sucker for the cheese and comic crack.

 

Even aside from getting bored, I'm starting to see the Star Labs gang in an unfavourable light which isn't helping me get invested. On top of looking stupid and ridiculous, seeing them so complacent about the metahuman prison and Wells' weekly shady business makes me not want to root for them. Where's the morality? Where's common sense? I'm not sure they're even much of superhero crew right now. More like a shady corporate clean up that does favours for the police and civilians here and there. But not interesting shady (other than Wells), more like easily appeased robo-people.

[CabotCove]

Arrow had way more female characters and female interaction - 4 female regulars in season 1 and basically 5 (Sara had a lot of screentime) in season 2. Some of this interaction sucked, though (Laurel/Sara was a clusterfuck), but at least they tried. On The Flash, they don't even try with girls, they are both nowhere near as central and developed, so far. I hope they'll add someone in s2. Preferably NOT a love interest for Barry.

 

 Don't quite agree, Flash has shown Iris and Caitlin getting along well (at least twice) and with no drama, so early in the show's run. Caitlin and Iris are the only two regular female characters, but in supporting roles  they have now added Tina Mcgee, Linda Park, Clarissa Stein. I would also count Barry's mother, she will likely feature in flashbacks a lot. I could be forgetting someone else. The rooster is growing, and many of these female characters are in respectable roles. True Arrow likely had more female characters in season 1  but they were all intertwined in some Soap opera BS (maybe except Felicity). Moira was involved in shady things that put her kids in harms way, Laurel was the girl cheated on, Thea was the wild teen on drugs. Quantity is not always better, 

 

Arrow has its problems, but Oliver's initial recruiting of Diggs and Felicity and later, Roy, were meaningful. They set up these difficult relationships that had to thaw over time, but ones with the potential to grow in interesting ways.

 

I don't get why it needs to be the same, they are different shows. There are complains that Flash is trying to imitate Arrow but where it isn't, people complain its doing its own thing too?. For me what I like about Team Flash is that it doesn't seem like there is a leader and his sidekicks but that they genuinely feel like friends (Caitlin/Barry/Cisco especially). They have quite a lot in common and seem to have fun, in and out of work.  Its refreshing to see a TEAM that is not always fighting and in disagreements most of the time.

 

Not that I'm knocking Team Arrow, it works for what it is and I like how differently it started too. I just feel they could use some more bonding, they seem to be getting better at that with each season.

Edited February 21, 2015 by Conell

[In2You]

I dont think Team Flash works at all and its one of the things that is bringing down the show.  Barry really doesn't need a team. They constantly dumb his character down to make the team work.

[driedfruit]

Cisco/Caitlin/Barry are too monotone to keep my interest. I guess they're friends, but more out of convenience than genuine interest (from what I've seen).

 

Instead of Star Labs the show would be better off focusing at CCPD. Both Cisco and Wells have way more chemistry with Joe than anyone, and put in the likes of Singh and Eddie, suddenly we've got interesting work relationships.  

[CabotCove]

Well different strokes, I guess.

 I really love Team Flash which unofficially extends to non member characters like Joe,Iris, Ronnie,Stein etc.

I do however think that the dynamic will change in the future, with maybe new characters coming in and others leaving the team. And possibly way in the future Flash will go solo..so I'm just going to enjoy the current Flash team while its still here.

Edited February 21, 2015 by Conell

[Lokiberry]

Well different strokes, I guess.

 I really love Team Flash which unofficially extends to non member characters like Joe,Iris, Ronnie,Stein etc.

I do however think that the dynamic will change in the future, with maybe new characters coming in and others leaving the team. And possibly way in the future Flash will go solo..so I'm just going to enjoy the current Flash team while its still here.

I also love Team Flash, and think TPTB mess with it at their peril. This show works; it's ratings are good, and it's received generally favorable reviews. There's no reason to make changes, other than those that have to happen when Wells is revealed. After that, I fully expect some new configuration of TF for the second season.

[Xander]

I don't think you can consider someone like Tina McGee an addition when so far, it was just a cameo in one episode. Clarissa was there as Stein's wife. He was the character. Linda is here as a love interest. That's her sole purpose. The owner of Barry's home was added as a sex pot. I'm sure they could have used her better. These female characters aren't adding anything of substance. Iris is a main character but her major purpose so far has to be a source of angst for Barry.

[In2You]

Tina McGee was nothing but a pointless wink at people who were fans of the 90s show. Her role could've been any random scientist.

[CabotCove]

Tina McGee was nothing but a pointless wink at people who were fans of the 90s show. Her role could've been any random scientist.

 

We don't know that she is not coming back. Especially now with the kind of person Wells has turned out to be.

 

I also love Team Flash, and think TPTB mess with it at their peril. This show works; it's ratings are good, and it's received generally favorable reviews. There's no reason to make changes, other than those that have to happen when Wells is revealed. After that, I fully expect some new configuration of TF for the second season.There's no reason to make changes, other than those that have to happen when Wells is revealed.

Glad you like the team too. Yeah about Wells, I guess we knew that day was coming, like what the second episode when he killed Simon Staggs. Its going to really shake up the team when his secrets are uncovered. I'm really excited to see it unfold but I feel sorry for these kids (Caitlin/Barry/Cisco)

 

 

The owner of Barry's home was added as a sex pot.

Lol no, Im definately not talking about that one. 

Edited February 21, 2015 by Conell

[Shanna]

Don't quite agree, Flash has shown Iris and Caitlin getting along well (at least twice) and with no drama, so early in the show's run. Caitlin and Iris are the only two regular female characters, but in supporting roles they have now added Tina Mcgee, Linda Park, Clarissa Stein. ,

Iris and Caitlin are the only developed characters from that list, although I love Linda. I am afraid Caitlin is going to be pushed off in this firestorm story and not have her own. Or be turned evil or something.

True Arrow likely had more female characters in season 1 but they were all intertwined in some Soap opera BS (maybe except Felicity). Moira was involved in shady things that put her kids in harms way, Laurel was the girl cheated on, Thea was the wild teen on drugs. Quantity is not always better,

Quantity is not always better but I think it's awfully dismissive to say arrows four or five very developed and diverse characters don't count because reasons. They are not perfect people (Moira and Thea for instance) but that is what makes them interesting - they have flaws like everyone else. Does wells not count as an interesting character because he does bad things? Of course not.

I mean, I don't actually care that much about the beancounting, I happily watched a show where the main characters were two brothers with few females for years, but I absolutely think arrow has done a better job developing their female characters. Even shado had more of a story and I felt more connected too than basically anyone on this show.

[CabotCove]

Quantity is not always better but I think it's awfully dismissive to say arrows four or five very developed and diverse characters don't count because reasons. They are not perfect people (Moira and Thea for instance) but that is what makes them interesting - they have flaws like everyone else. Does wells not count as an interesting character because he does bad things? Of course not.

I'm not dismissing them, I just don't think they were all that in the first season, but I think some of the female characters have gotten better this season (season 3) Laurel, Thea for e.g have certainly come a long way from what they used to be.

I just think that Flash's Caitlin and Iris are in a far better position in season 1, than Arrow female characters were IMO. Its easier to, forget that, The Flash is only 14 episodes young, there is still plenty of time for the 'girls' to develop much more.

I am afraid Caitlin is going to be pushed off in this firestorm story and not have her own. Or be turned evil or something.

Well, Ronnie is gone ( for now) I love them together but I hope now they can focus on Caitlin, outside of being a love interest. Edited February 22, 2015 by Conell

[driedfruit]

Well, Ronnie is gone ( for now) I love them together but I hope now they can focus on Caitlin, outside of being a love interest.

 

I really hope we can get more of Cisco and Caitlin outside of their job setting. They have families I assume. Maybe they even have friends? Perhaps if we get to see their roots their blind loyalty to Wells after everything will start to make some sense. Especially if the show paints them as fundamentally grey. It won't explain Barry, but at least that's 2 out of 3. 

[bettername2come]

I really hope we can get more of Cisco and Caitlin outside of their job setting. They have families I assume. Maybe they even have friends?

 

Cisco has a brother who's supposed to show up in episode 16, I think.

[KatWay]

I think the show isn't doing a great job of writing the relationships. Caitlin/Ronnie should feel tragic and heartfelt, this could be a really interesting story, but they are doing nothing with it for the most part. It seems to me they don't want to commit to this pairing so they can keep Caitlin an option for Barry, but that only results in both of these set ups feeling half-harted and bland.

 

Barry/Iris should be interesting too, but the writing is all off for them, and it's all so shallow and bland. Actually shallow and bland is a criticism I have for the entire show at times. There are no stakes, no build up to anything except maybe the Wells reveal, but by now I feel like I've seen the same scene of Wells acting shady while the camera zooms in on his face a bazillion times and everyone remains trusting and oblivious. And it's not like Wells has a particularly deep connection with anyone so I'd worry how it'll affect them when he turns out to be evil. I mean they tell me he does but I'm not seeing it. Team Flash will probably be just fine like two episodes after they've dealt with the Wells situation. Cisco is still barely a character, Caitlin is at least three different characters, Iris has no POV, and Barry is only great because Grant Gustin is so charming (same reason why Iris is still on the plus side with me, because the actress playing her is charismatic).

[Oscirus]

Moira was involved in shady things that put her kids in harms way, Laurel was the girl cheated on, Thea was the wild teen on drugs. Quantity is not always better,

 

Moira was running a successful family business while also keeping one of the most dangerous men in the city at bay and raising a teenage daughter, Laurel was a successful lawyer who was also a pretty good influence on Tommy, Thea was acting her age.

 

Even if we disregard those, those three,  at this point on arrow, their supporting cast was still pretty impressive.  There was the huntress, a mobster's daughter, who at one point was running her father's business while at the same time taking out dangerous mobsters. Joana de la vega, Laurel's coworker and another fairly successful lawyer. Detective Hall, former party call who made a pretty impressive raise through the police ranks becoming Quentin's partner by the time she left.  Shado, her accomplishments have already been outlined here. Carly, Diggle's main confidante in the early seasons. I'm sure I've missed some, but I'm too lazy to look them up, sorry.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to call out the flash.  Arrow just leaves Flash in the dust when it comes to it's female cast regardless of whether you're talking about quantity or quality.

[Oscirus]

The writers are probably doing this so the blow-out when they discover who Dr.Wells can be all big, but it is just making me not want to continue watching the show because there is nothing for me to invest in.

 

I think when Wells actions went from gray  to outright black, the character stopped being  intriguing to me. I believe it was around the time of Blackout when I first started noticing a major difference. 

I'm also starting to question the importance of most of Flash's  team. I'll give you that  Cisco invents cool stuff. But Wells is basically now just there to be creepy and get caught in the season finale. Caitlin's fine as his personal physician but if she wasn't there, I don't feel like we'd lose anything.

Edited February 22, 2015 by Oscirus

[cynic]

Seriously, was there some kind of writers change or network interference or something part way through the season, because it totally seems like the show changed for the worse in several ways.

[phoenics]

Seriously, was there some kind of writers change or network interference or something part way through the season, because it totally seems like the show changed for the worse in several ways.

Exact same question I had. If the writers didn't change, I do wonder if the tone of the top changed.

[Trini]

I don't think there's been any drastic behind-the-scenes change. It's just that at this point, they can incorporate audience feedback into the scripts.

Edited February 23, 2015 by Trini

[driedfruit]

I don't think there's been any drastic behind-the-scenes change. It's just that at this point now they can incorporate audience feedback into the scripts.

 

That's a big mistake. 

 

Whatever happened to Joss Whedon's “Don’t give people what they want, give them what they need.”

[Lokiberry]

That's a big mistake. 

 

Whatever happened to Joss Whedon's “Don’t give people what they want, give them what they need.”

Buffy season 6, anyone? It's a fine line: they need to listen to feedback enough to correct clear and obvious mistakes, but not so much that the fans are writing their scripts for them. I expect them to take criticism from the post-Christmas episodes into account when they plan for season 2.