Relationships: Speed Dating

[zannej]

I don't know if they ever even told the rest of the cops about Reverse Flash. I think they just said that both Eddie and Harrison Wells were killed by that giant vortex in the sky that was sucking up cars, skyscrapers, and everything close by.

 

It would be a bit like someone being known to have been in a house that got washed away by a tsunami-- they would be presumed dead if the house was never recovered.

[Ruby25]

I wonder if they're going to have Scott tell Iris she's in love with Barry in the next episode. I'd prefer it if they finally had her realize it completely and totally on her own, but I have a feeling like they're going to have one more person tell her before she accepts it.

[bettername2come]

If Scott has to be involved, I would rather him tell her she's in love with the Flash. He knows nothing about her relationship with Barry and has no right to say anything about it. He has, presumably, read most a lot of her writing about the Flash and argued with her about his motivations. 

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

Finally the writers let Iris acknowledge her feelings for Barry. 

 

Now, just gotta wait for them (CW) to somehow screw it up.  Sorry for the negativity, but I feel like its warranted to say that experience dictates feeling conditioned to expect the worst when it comes to romantic relationships on this network - at least among a few of its ventures.

[phoenics]

I feel like things are lining up too neatly for WA to happen full on right now. I of course hope that it does but I'm paranoid that something really shaft-y is gonna happen to piss fans off.

I have Sleepy Hollow PTSD and it's made me terribly pessimistic about everything.

But I did love seeing Iris finally open up about her feelings (it only took 2 seasons) and I liked Caitlin and Iris having a conversation even though it didn't pass the Bechdel test... maybe Iris can return the favor with Caitlin some time. But I think what would really help would be Iris and Caitlin being friends - or bringing Linda back for a trio of GFs. Caitlin apparently has Felicity as her friend, so let Iris have Linda if they aren't going to let Iris/Caitlin be friends.

The scenes with Barry and Iris were really awkward hot. Barry trying so hard not to be petty and Iris trying so hard to look interested in her date, lol.

Question though - did Iris move out of the house? Because Barry seemed to intimate that it was just him and Joe at the house.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

These writers pretty much have to go with WA next season.  If they don't, it tells me everything I need to know about certain portions of the show... and romantic relationships are a fairly large and noticeable part of this and 95% of all CW shows.

I can, with difficulty, turn the other cheek because of resulting circumstances from the end of last season that gave a somewhat plausible reason to let the ship-stalling go for most of this season, but there's no such things in the way for next year.  Don't work on ruining a good show, writers.  Prove to me you can (try to) keep the quality above average.

Edited May 4, 2016 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[Trini]

They shouldn't, (because these first two seasons has been mostly stalling) BUT they could still find a reason to stall in Season 3. I'm remembering two other genre shows that had the main couple finally ready to pull the trigger at the end of season 2/beginning of season 3, and then they stalled for half the season. One show actually had a good in-universe reason, the other did not -- and it was highly annoying because it was obvious, unnecessary stalling.

I'd love it if they just decided to go for it and have Barry and Iris together; I'm just saying don't be surprised if it doesn't happen right away.  :-/

In non-romantic relationships:
There's not enough dudes hugging on TV, so Cisco and Dante really got me in the last episode.
Henry really should have been around more this season. (especially since they love father-son moments on this show.)

Edited May 4, 2016 by Trini

[ruby24]

I think they'll probably figure out some reason to stall it until the beginning of next season, if only because they won't want to skip over the first 5 months or so of their relationship and have all that take place in offscreenville. There's no way they'd want that to happen, imo. Which I'm okay with, because I want to see that stuff too, as long as next season is them together and no more stalling once they come back.

[ruby24]

If they want to give Barry and Iris a genuine relationship issue (for like one episode or something), something I can easily see would be Iris feeling too much pressure to live up to Barry's total, lifelong idealization of her as the perfect woman. That makes a lot of sense.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

Well, normally it would look like its WA full-steam ahead now, but...............  *side-eyes the writers, and their network*.

[ruby24]

Well, I'm glad they're moving on Barry/Iris finally, even though it really took way too long to get here. Unnecessarily long.

But now that they've established this pure, eternal love and destiny and everything between them, there's one note that I've seen others mentioning (here and other sites) that I actually would agree with. Maybe they can deal with this early next season, but I do think they need to let them show some passion.

I've questioned before whether Grant Gustin is even capable of bringing any kind of heat or sexual chemistry (because that's the one thing I haven't seen from him with ANY of the women they've paired him with- Felicity, Linda, Patty, Kara, not a single one). Maybe some people just can't convey that, but now that he and Iris are a thing, I do think they ought to be able show that part of the relationship too. They didn't even let them kiss in this last episode, when it seemed natural that they should have. A kiss on the cheek? Really? THIS Iris hasn't even kissed him at all yet!

I hope they do some episode, probably next season, where they confront this head on, because I think it's also important to show that they do have some passion for each other as well.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

You all know what's coming, don't you?  With Henry dying, and in that fashion??

It means a huge freeway-clogging stall on the WA front [next week and a very large portion of next season], and just when it looks like they might be making some head-way finally, the 'big bad's grand plan will start to take shape, meaning Barry will have to focus on that more than this own personal life.  Then, to make matters worse, just when it looks like they might start a relationship at the very end of the season, tragedy/strife/craziness ensues and resets the stopwatch all over again.

'Worked' in s1 and again in s2. 

Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

TheCW has made this method of 'storytelling' their own science by this point.

Edited May 24, 2016 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[Trini]

Yeah, I'm expecting a stall*; but I hope they at least make it a really good, tolerable reason for it. Also be prepared for them to break up at least once.

*(It would be wonderful if they decided to skip that -- because these writers clearly lack the skill set to write romantic relationships -- even if we miss some of the baby steps of Barry and Iris' new relationship.)

Edited May 24, 2016 by Trini

[bettername2come]

I would be fine with a cliffhanger delay - something awful happens in finale, we have to wait till fall to see Westallen. But in season premiere, they need to be together by the end of the ep. And don't pull an Olicity and tease us with one date/kiss before overprotective "I have to dump you to keep you safe" thing kicks in.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

So, for the S2 finale............. we get the much-awaited "I love you"s, only for Barry to spit in Iris' face by deciding to throw all that patient work to the curb of getting her to see him in a romantic way by racing back to reset everything from the point his mom was supposed to die.

 

I expected a stall, guys, but holy shit;  this is like the Mother of all stalls.  He's going to come back to the point he left and Iris might not even barely know him anymore [IE they grew up apart, hung out in separate groups, went to different colleges, etc].  Or, even worse - so much worse - Barry and Caitlin are in a relationship because of their very slightly somewhat similar sciency backgrounds.  So that would mean a good portion of that pairing moving apart to work back to the WA.  I know many will think I'm overreacting by imagining the 'Snowbarry' situation, but I'll leave the continual reminder of the network the show resides on.  And now I have acid reflux.  Thanks, Show (& Network).

Edited May 25, 2016 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[pookat]

I've decided that the only way to maintain WestAllen in my mind is to believe that Barry and Iris of the new timeline will most closely resemble their Earth-2 doppelgangers, Dr. Bartholomew Allen and Det. Iris West.

It makes sense to me that Barry was the slightly cosseted, nebbish only child of a stable, loving two parent home who pursued an advanced degree as well as the woman he loved (and who probably protected him from a bunch of schoolyard bullies) while Iris had to grow up a bit tougher as a jazz singer's daughter rather than an overprotected cop's daughter. They never had the curse of the brother-sister dynamic having to grow up in the same house.

The one thing that worries me, given Grant and Melissa Benoist's spectacular chemistry, is that with the CW/D multiverse combined and multiple crossovers already planned, they might dump Iris in favor of Kara as Barry's girlfriend. I don't want the writers to screw over Iris (or Candice) like they did with Abbie on Sleepy Hollow. Much as I enjoy Supergirl as portrayed, this would be a really shady way to go.

Did anyone else notice some major sparks between Harry and Caitlin? I would not have predicted that, especially with such an age difference, but Harry's big grin and their bonding scene surprisingly warmed my heart. Who knew?

[ParadoxLost]

9 minutes ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

I expected a stall, guys, but holy shit;  this is like the Mother of all stalls.  He's going to come back to the point he left and Iris might not even barely know him anymore [IE they grew up apart, hung out in separate groups, went to different colleges, etc].  Or, even worse - so much worse - Barry and Caitlin are in a relationship because of their very slightly somewhat similar sciency backgrounds.  So that would mean a good portion of that pairing moving apart to work back to the WA.  I know many will think I'm overreacting by imagining the 'Snowbarry' situation, but I'll leave the continual reminder of the network the show resides on.  And now I have acid reflux.  Thanks, Show (& Network).

I haven't seen anything that gets me that invested in Barry and Iris yet.  But I can see them having Iris and Barry in a relationship at the premiere of next season and its somewhat unsatisfying like Earth 2 because they skipped over the getting together part and they are now different people with the timeline change.  Then once the audience gets on board, Barry will have to fix everything by giving up Iris and resetting the timeline.  They can stall this on both sides.

Ray of sunshine, aren't I?

[phoenics]

18 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

I haven't seen anything that gets me that invested in Barry and Iris yet.  But I can see them having Iris and Barry in a relationship at the premiere of next season and its somewhat unsatisfying like Earth 2 because they skipped over the getting together part and they are now different people with the timeline change.  Then once the audience gets on board, Barry will have to fix everything by giving up Iris and resetting the timeline.  They can stall this on both sides.

Ray of sunshine, aren't I?

<insert flailing confused gif here>

I still don't know how I feel about that finale!  I mean - I just ... the only thing I can do right now is focus on the fact that they could do ANYTHING at this point - I mean - they've erased WA AGAIN... but I don't think the S3 will start with Westallen.  I think Barry is going to have to see how changing the timeline destroyed EVERYTHING... and he will have to eventually set things back.  Time is going to mess with him until he fixes it.

I just dunno.  My head hurts.

[CabotCove]

Quote

The one thing that worries me, given Grant and Melissa Benoist's spectacular chemistry, is that with the CW/D multiverse combined and multiple crossovers already planned, they might dump Iris in favor of Kara as Barry's girlfriend. 

Two big superheroes, two leads of different shows, nah It wont happen. What spectacular chemistry, I for one think they will be like two siblings dating.

Edited May 25, 2016 by WildcardC

[Xenith22]

Wow I am shocked.  No, not about the massive stall the writers threw up.  What I can't believe is that they actually FINALLY had Iris take the initiative to talk to Barry alone without Joe first giving her a look/nod making it look like he was pushing her to do it like he  did every other freaking time this season...

[ruby24]

I'm frustrated, but I'm hoping this actually isn't a massive stall. We know Barry's gonna end up fixing the timeline, and maybe the events of the alternate universe will make him realize he needs to go back and be with Iris by the time this paradox thing wraps up. I'm predicting it won't last longer than maybe the first two episodes of the new season before he comes back.

With both of them admitting they love each other, stalling for another entire season seems ridiculous. And the reason is because Barry's too miserable to be with her? Yeah, because everyone wants to see a show about the Flash being miserable. They basically did that this season, but there's been a lot of criticism over the change in tone, and I'm hoping the writers realize they NEED to figure out a way to bring that first season joy back to the show somehow. The last thing they should do is make Barry a depressed, Oliver Queen of Arrow Season 3.

So my advice is this: use the paradox story to make him realize he has to go back to his timeline and be happy again, and use the Iris romance as the thing that brings his happiness back. And do it early.

Edited May 25, 2016 by ruby24

[zannej]

Cue epic eyeroll from me when Barry gave Iris the "It's not you, it's me" ship-stalling speech. *sigh*

I actually think the new timeline might last more than a few episodes. They might do almost the entire season in it before Barry realizes things are better off the way they were before he dicked with time.

[phoenics]

I do think they could use the whole Flashpoint thing as the trigger to slightly modify the universe when Barry fixes things... Supergirl could be part of our universe now and it could even be true that Barry and Iris didn't grow up together.  I've never been bothered by that and think that objection is overblown, but it would be funny to watch the reaction to that "reasoning for why WA shouldn't happen" being obliterated by the writers, lol.

I might pay to see that, lol.

I just hope that whatever happens, they stick to the "Iris and Barry find each other and fall for each other in every timeline or earth" comments that Kevin Smith made... and I hope that if they DO merge all of the earths after Barry "fixes" the Flashpoint Paradox and it changes things so that Barry/Iris aren't together, that the merged universe eventually rights itself and they end up together anyway.

[ruby24]

All I know is that I'm feeling cheated by this now, and if they're not together by the mid-season finale at the LATEST, I'm going to be considering dropping the show. Barry's "excuse" felt like a writer's construct of what can we do to NOT put them together for even longer. Which makes me suspicious for the first time that the show really doesn't want to put them together at all.

I'm worried, angry and feeling dismayed and cheated by that.

[quarks]

Iris: Barry, I love you.

Barry: I love you too. Now, let me reset the timeline so that this entire scene never happened. Incidentally, by doing so, I'll also be changing the last several years of your life, without even talking to you about it or making sure you're ok with it.

Iris, you deserve much better than this.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

13 hours ago, quarks said:

Iris: Barry, I love you.

Barry: I love you too. Now, let me reset the timeline so that this entire scene never happened. Incidentally, by doing so, I'll also be changing the last several years of your life, without even talking to you about it or making sure you're ok with it.

Iris, you deserve much better than this.

Not only Iris, but Joe, Cisco, Caitlin, the Arrow team and basically the rest of humanity.

Thanks for the consult and letting us offer some advice, Bear!

[Trini]

On 5/24/2016 at 11:12 PM, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

So, for the S2 finale............. we get the much-awaited "I love you"s, only for Barry to spit in Iris' face by deciding to throw all that patient work to the curb of getting her to see him in a romantic way by racing back to reset everything from the point his mom was supposed to die.

I expected a stall, guys, but holy shit;  this is like the Mother of all stalls. 

 

On 5/25/2016 at 3:27 AM, zannej said:

Cue epic eyeroll from me when Barry gave Iris the "It's not you, it's me" ship-stalling speech. *sigh*

::Barry starts talking about how he's too broken and hollow to date Iris::

Me: "Nooooo... Nope. Uh uh. STOP IT. Shut your stupid mouth Barry! Take the win here! I can't believe they're giving us The Stall before the kiss...arrggggh."
And then of course The Mother of All Stalls. So then I was just confused/angry -- if they were going to reset everything a minute 30 seconds later anyway, why the other stall? So even if they reverse Barry's decision (2-6 episodes later??) they still have something to stall with? Gah!!

[ruby24]

54 minutes ago, Trini said:

 

::Barry starts talking about how he's too broken and hollow to date Iris::

Me: "Nooooo... Nope. Uh uh. STOP IT. Shut your stupid mouth Barry! Take the win here! I can't believe they're giving us The Stall before the kiss...arrggggh."
And then of course The Mother of All Stalls. So then I was just confused/angry -- if they were going to reset everything a minute 30 seconds later anyway, why the other stall? So even if they reverse Barry's decision (2-6 episodes later??) they still have something to stall with? Gah!!

Yeah, that's what I'm a little worried about too. But...if Barry's excuse is that he's "broken" (ugh- shades of Oliver Queen there, blech), then I figure whatever goes on in the reset will be so awful that it fixes him by making him super thrilled to get back to the other timeline, ala George Bailey in It's a Wonderful Life.

That could happen, right? Especially because no one wants to see Barry being a miserable mess even AFTER he returns from the alternate universe. I have to assume the writers have at least absorbed that much from the critical reaction to this season. The only excuse for him and Iris not being together would be that he's still miserable? I really don't think people want to watch that for too long, I think they want the show to get light and fun again. Best way to do it is to let his eternally wanted romance with Iris bring happiness and joy to him.

Plus, I'm not sure that I would buy that he's the one choosing NOT to be with Iris after wanting her his whole life. Does he not love her as much as he did in Season 1 now?

Of course...I guess yet another option would be that even after Barry restores the timeline, there are some other minor changes, and there's now some entirely different reason for keeping them apart. I have no idea what that would be though. I can't imagine they'd erase Iris's feelings AGAIN, after all this. Honestly, I can't think of what would realistically keep them apart at that point. Maybe Iris is attacked by some metahuman and becomes temporarily terminally ill all of a sudden and they have to find a cure? Lol. Maybe something really immediate like that could delay it til the mid-season finale at the latest.

I just don't want to see Barry's ongoing depression being the reason. Therefore, the conclusion has to be that they come together when he returns.

Edited May 27, 2016 by ruby24

[zannej]

When Barry said he was too broken to date Iris, I literally facepalmed and sighed heavily. I wanted to borrow Harry's stolen Mercury Labs gun and just zap whoever in the writing room decided to do that.

The ship-stalling is NOT entertaining.

I want to see the timeline get mostly restored and have Barry run back to Iris and just lay a big passionate kiss on her and NOT have some stupid stalling excuse.

I also want to see Jay Garrick meet up with Tina McGee.

Oh, and I want to see Earth1 Harrison Wells getting to be with Tess some more. According to Eobard, in the original timeline, Tess helped him make the particle accelerator. I just hope she wasn't someone who was killed when it exploded.

[Actionmage]

Quote

Oh, and I want to see Earth1 Harrison Wells getting to be with Tess some more. According to Eobard, in the original timeline, Tess helped him make the particle accelerator. I just hope she wasn't someone who was killed when it exploded.

She was killed in the accident Eobard caused in order to take over Harrison Wells' life. E-1 Harrison asked Thawne to help Tess, "my wife", because she was trapped in the wrecked car. Thawne ensured that Tess wasn't around to have any hand in the making of the accelerator.

If you mean in the timeline Thawne did not mess with, she probably didn't die because she and Harrison would more than likely not allow the particle accelerator to become operational if it had a chance of malfunctioning. Thawne needed the accelerator to explode, Original Recipe Wells did not.

Edited May 29, 2016 by Actionmage

[zannej]

On 5/24/2016 at 10:25 PM, pookat said:

Did anyone else notice some major sparks between Harry and Caitlin? I would not have predicted that, especially with such an age difference, but Harry's big grin and their bonding scene surprisingly warmed my heart. Who knew?

Even Danielle Panabaker had no clue. Some fans that met her at a convention in the UK mentioned it to her and she was absolutely shocked. She said Caitlin views Harry as a paternal figure and that there is absolutely no romantic interest there. She had absolutely no idea that there was a "SnowWells" ship. I know that Danielle and Tom seem to have a very good platonic relationship, so maybe that is what people misread as romance/lust?

On 5/29/2016 at 6:10 PM, Actionmage said:

She was killed in the accident Eobard caused in order to take over Harrison Wells' life. E-1 Harrison asked Thawne to help Tess, "my wife", because she was trapped in the wrecked car. Thawne ensured that Tess wasn't around to have any hand in the making of the accelerator.

If you mean in the timeline Thawne did not mess with, she probably didn't die because she and Harrison would more than likely not allow the particle accelerator to become operational if it had a chance of malfunctioning. Thawne needed the accelerator to explode, Original Recipe Wells did not.

I meant the timeline that Thawne did NOT mess with. I don't know if Thawne intentionally killed Tess in the revised timeline. I think he was just trying to get to Harrison to take over his body. Although, he might not have been able to fake-it well enough to convince Tess so he might have deliberately killed her if she had survived the accident OR he could have passed it off as TBI (Traumatic Brian Injury).

[Trini]

On 5/26/2016 at 11:49 PM, ruby24 said:

Yeah, that's what I'm a little worried about too. But...if Barry's excuse is that he's "broken" (ugh- shades of Oliver Queen there, blech), then I figure whatever goes on in the reset will be so awful that it fixes him by making him super thrilled to get back to the other timeline, ala George Bailey in It's a Wonderful Life.

That could happen, right? Especially because no one wants to see Barry being a miserable mess even AFTER he returns from the alternate universe. I have to assume the writers have at least absorbed that much from the critical reaction to this season. The only excuse for him and Iris not being together would be that he's still miserable? I really don't think people want to watch that for too long, I think they want the show to get light and fun again. Best way to do it is to let his eternally wanted romance with Iris bring happiness and joy to him.

Plus, I'm not sure that I would buy that he's the one choosing NOT to be with Iris after wanting her his whole life. Does he not love her as much as he did in Season 1 now?

Of course...I guess yet another option would be that even after Barry restores the timeline, there are some other minor changes, and there's now some entirely different reason for keeping them apart. I have no idea what that would be though. I can't imagine they'd erase Iris's feelings AGAIN, after all this. Honestly, I can't think of what would realistically keep them apart at that point. Maybe Iris is attacked by some metahuman and becomes temporarily terminally ill all of a sudden and they have to find a cure? Lol. Maybe something really immediate like that could delay it til the mid-season finale at the latest.

I just don't want to see Barry's ongoing depression being the reason. Therefore, the conclusion has to be that they come together when he returns.

 

On 5/28/2016 at 0:52 AM, zannej said:

I want to see the timeline get mostly restored and have Barry run back to Iris and just lay a big passionate kiss on her and NOT have some stupid stalling excuse.

I hope this is what happens, too. I think it might depend on how long this reset lasts at the beginning of Season 3. If they reverse everything within 1 or 2 episodes, I can see them finding another reason to stall.

But they really shouldn't, since it would make sense for Barry and Iris to take this new phase of their relationship slowly.

[Trini]

15 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

But she's also on too many occasions said Dad's back at the house or Dad's in trouble or Dad's looking for you. So I get why that initially made some people uncomfortable.  I think that's less of a problem now since Iris and Barry's bonding time with Joe is kept very separate (to the point where it is embarrassing how much more Joe seems to love Barry, lol) 

In the very first episode I clung to the line about Barry and Iris being best friends before he moved in with them and that he had a crush on her even back then.  So I completely believe that Barry has never thought of Iris as a sister. 

I'm less sure if Iris thought of Barry as a brother.  I'm inclined to think that she didn't put a label on it.  He was just Barry.  And it probably wasn't until she tired to get him to open up about girls that she tried to put a label on it and "kinda brother and sister" was a way to explain it. 

I don't really care about that anymore except to mock the writers for letting it go there.  They should have stuck with calling them best friends and nothing else no matter how they grew up.  Which leads me to what I consider a bigger problem. 

We barely ever see them be best friends.  They spend lots of time now with the case of the week and we've seen them hanging at home together with Joe or at family dinners.  In season one, Barry dropped by and got coffee a lot.  But have they ever hung out just together as buds?  The closest is in the Pilot when they were waiting in line.  The next closest is when they've double dated (kind of) with Felicity.  Oh and that one time that Eddie and Iris kind of crashed Barry's date with... (blanking on her name)  Otherwise, these two best friends don't act like best friends.  Huge fail.  Cause I LOVE that kind of romance.  

I don't ship against Iris and Barry but I'm forever wishing for them to better written.  In the AU's they totally work but in the real time line?  Well lets hope they really are going to write Iris better. 

I also have a different reaction to the meant to be aspect of their romance.  Until they show why THIS couple works, I don't care about any other version working, at least as incentive to get me to root for Earth 1 Barry.  I was loving Flashpoint Iris and Barry UNTIL she skipped actually getting to know him and was just in love with him because DESTINY!   

I don't think there is any reason to worry that they'd abandon WestAllen as endgame.  Candice the actress and Iris the character are pretty well liked as far as I can tell by not just the viewers but lots of reviewers as well. (I only make that point to say that she's not a polarizing character - there's no outside reason they'd write her out)  It seems to me the problems expressed aren't with Iris so much as what we aren't getting with Iris. 

I'm just always so frustrated that they keep insisting on telling me Barry and Iris should be together for all these reasons and I'm still waiting to see them be this best friend pairing rather than Iris constantly propping Barry and Barry kind of constantly screwing with her life.  I exaggerate some but I'm really hoping this season she and Barry will have to work on their relationship so I get to see why it's worth this label of epic love.   

I love shipping and I really want to swoon over them, but Barry is so selfish and the show ignores Iris so much it's hard not to remember how great she and Eddie were together. 

Maybe I'm just too annoyed at Barry to want him to get his heart's desire. 

Not at all. We like long winded respectful opinions.  I hope you always feel free to share. 

(Qouted from the Arrow forum)
Just wanted to address the 'best friends' part; The show has shown them acting as friends, but it was mostly in Season 1. Season 2 really dropped the ball on that aspect, though. They hung out, helped each other with things, bought each other personalized gifts, had talks... but then Season 2.

[BkWurm1]

Very true.  So many lost chances.  I liked Patty but wouldn't it have made more sense to build up their existing character's relationship?  Iris clearly wasn't going to jump into a romantic relationship with Barry right after Eddie died but that's when Barry should have shown how much he loved her by putting his feelings aside and just being there as her friend.  Instead, he just stays away from her for half the year.  Show loves to send mixed messages. 

[CabotCove]

From 3x02: Paradox http://forums.previously.tv/topic/48940-s03e02-paradox/?page=2

Quote

I think planned is the key word.  I get the sense that the CW shows throw the comic book love interest into the show because they feel they must but then have no idea what to do with them.

Romance is a subplot /aspect of a show like any other why shouldn't it be planned beforehand too. Fandoms don't get to dictate familial and friendship relationships between characters based on so called chemistry, why should romance be any different?. Just speaking in general, there is an entitlement nowadays that a show has to chose romance that internet people want, it really didnt use to be like this and I think it has gotten out of hand. 

For every person who dislikes Barry/Iris relationship, there is another who doesnt care for Barry/Joe, Barry/Wells, Barry/Caitlin etc. But no one ever really says they should not have planned Barry/Joe to begin with or  that they should end it, no its only romance that is stigmatized that way. There would be no show if the show was to get rid of  what everyone doesnt want.

No its not just the CW that starts with pre-planned couples (its actually more common on the big networks), but its mostly the CW fandom that feels the need to dictate what and who the shows should have for romance. The network has allowed this influence. If the writers job to  plan a good story and that include being sure that the actors they have has chemistry and that the story will work.  If they fail, then they are not really good writers and showrunners.

JMO.

Edited October 13, 2016 by DCLeague

[kirinan]

I do agree with you, DCLeague. My post in the other thread was a badly-worded way of saying that many times, I think the showrunners let the fans dictate the romances, and by "organically," I meant let the story needs determine where the romance falls, not a bunch of rabid shippers. I have my favorites--with both the romantic and the platonic relationships--but if they don't get together, oh, well, too bad, so sad for me, it's not my show, so I just need to suck it up and watch what happens. I can continue to watch for those little glimpses that thrill me, but I would never presume to tell a writer, whether of a book or a show or a movie, who to get together. I feel strongly that showrunners give fans too much power these days (my opinion only, of course).  

That said, to bring it back to the topic (Flash), I sincerely do not see anything that convinces me that the producers cast Barry and Iris for their chemistry with each other (if they had this relationship planned from the outset, which I'm guessing they did). Even putting aside the writing, which hasn't helped them, every time they kiss it reminds me of the scene in Back to the Future, where Lorraine kisses Marty in the car before the prom, and says it's like kissing her brother.  

[Aeryn13]

I think Barry and Iris work far better than Season 1 Arrow Oliver and Laurel. That was some super-pushy anti-writing right there. And I`ll give them props from dropping it since it so clearly wasn`t working, plans and comic canon notwithstanding. 

That said, the romance writing for Flash is also not the best. They started out somewhat with a sibling/best friends vibe althewhile trying to pump the romance in but for say half a Season or so have gone into overdrive with the "true love" writing. I don`t think it was the smoothest transition. I like both actors and I have no problems with their scenes together but the plugging is just too much for me at the moment. It`s like a constant string of "do you feel it now?"  "how about now?"  "and now?"  

And while I don`t mind terribly much the adopted siblings angle, it`s still somewhat weird that for all intents and purposes, they have the same dad. Not biologically of course but Joe clearly has Dad scenes with both of them. Sometimes at the same time. Overall, I don`t consider the romance on this show a dealbreaker but I`m not terribly invested in it either.       

[phoenics]

12 hours ago, kirinan said:

That said, to bring it back to the topic (Flash), I sincerely do not see anything that convinces me that the producers cast Barry and Iris for their chemistry with each other (if they had this relationship planned from the outset, which I'm guessing they did). Even putting aside the writing, which hasn't helped them, every time they kiss it reminds me of the scene in Back to the Future, where Lorraine kisses Marty in the car before the prom, and says it's like kissing her brother.  

I think a lot of that is direction - not chemistry - because I see the chemistry with Barry/Iris (they've even ratcheted it up this season), but I am getting tired of the chaste kisses.  But again - that isn't chemistry - that's DIRECTION.  So until the writers actually pen a passionate kiss and direct that in the episode, apparently we won't get it.

Also - where you don't see chemistry, a ton of other fans do, including the showrunners, who specifically cited the off the charts chemistry between CP and GG when they cast CP.

[phoenics]

20 hours ago, DCLeague said:

From 3x02: Paradox http://forums.previously.tv/topic/48940-s03e02-paradox/?page=2

Romance is a subplot /aspect of a show like any other why shouldn't it be planned beforehand too. Fandoms don't get to dictate familial and friendship relationships between characters based on so called chemistry, why should romance be any different?. Just speaking in general, there is an entitlement nowadays that a show has to chose romance that internet people want, it really didnt use to be like this and I think it has gotten out of hand. 

For every person who dislikes Barry/Iris relationship, there is another who doesnt care for Barry/Joe, Barry/Wells, Barry/Caitlin etc. But no one ever really says they should not have planned Barry/Joe to begin with or  that they should end it, no its only romance that is stigmatized that way. There would be no show if the show was to get rid of  what everyone doesnt want.

No its not just the CW that starts with pre-planned couples (its actually more common on the big networks), but its mostly the CW fandom that feels the need to dictate what and who the shows should have for romance. The network has allowed this influence. If the writers job to  plan a good story and that include being sure that the actors they have has chemistry and that the story will work.  If they fail, then they are not really good writers and showrunners.

JMO.

The entitlement of CW fandom gets on my last nerves.  Especially when they set out from day one to disrupt anything that is canon.  It's never given a fair shake and it's just annoying.  It's almost like fans start out wanting to crack ship just because.  It's like folks just want to be contrary.

When did crack shipping become so ... mainstream, lol?

[CabotCove]

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 Especially when they set out from day one to disrupt anything that is canon.  It's never given a fair shake and it's just annoying. 

Yeah its been the cool thing for a while to "rebel" against canon....

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When did crack shipping become so ... mainstream, lol?

Due to increased internet networking I suppose, then the emergence of social media...I would think

[catrice2]

I don't think we can adequately gauge how well Barry and Iris will work. I remember chemistry in a scene on the roof, when they were on the double date with Linda and Eddie and a couple of other times. It just seems as if the writers don't want to build that chemistry or write for it.

If they are not going to do that, they may as well bring in viable love interests for both.  Patty and Eddie were not interesting enough to make you pull for that pairing over what he could potentially have with Iris. If they would write Barry and Iris as a young romantic couple instead of teenagers in high school they may have something there.  

Let's start with a real kiss and some sexual interest.  It does not have to be overt (this is a family show) but allow Barry to look at Iris as a man and not a boy and vice versa. The problem with any romance on this show is that they write them more like they are Teen Titans than young professionals. 

[Aeryn13]

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It's never given a fair shake and it's just annoying. 

I don`t think people should feel obligated to like something, canon or otherwise. If it`s not working for them, it`s not working. Personally, I can tell after two or three eps tops if a couple or a character or really a storyline is working for me or not. And I usually find no reason in the show to change my mind later.

The writers and showrunners still ultimately decide on the direction the show goes in. Noone ever held a gun to their heads and forced them to cave to twitter or social media. If they, on the other hand, get network exec notes on characters (more Felicity on Arrow), yes, they have to listen but that`s got nothing to do with fandom. They also bask in the social media adoration whenever they have it, then turn around and whine when criticism comes in. 

[driedfruit]

9 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I don`t think people should feel obligated to like something, canon or otherwise. If it`s not working for them, it`s not working.

Shipping isn't about whether a relationship is working as part of the story or not though, people could ship two characters who've never met and would never make sense as a couple (could even be incompatible species...). The point is, expecting the narrative of a show to meet fans' shipping desires (often innately based on a set of appealing tropes) is recipe for a disaster. Good romances aren't necessarily shippable by the masses, and shippable romances aren't necessarily a good romance (and could ruin a perfectly fine story).  

Anyway, Westallen are well acted and have a large fanbase, with no substantial competition. That's as much as any show can ask for. The writing hasn't been consistently great, but that's a larger problem for the show as a whole and as far as fixing goes, Westallen fall rather low on the priority of things that need it right now. (How about giving Iris and Wally more narrative purpose? Or is that too much to ask for?)

[Aeryn13]

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The point is, expecting the narrative of a show to meet fans' shipping desires (often innately based on a set of appealing tropes) is recipe for a disaster. Good romances aren't necessarily shippable by the masses, and shippable romances aren't necessarily a good romance (and could ruin a perfectly fine story). 

But my point was that people not shipping the canon romance isn`t them being "mean" to the canon romance. Whether anything from canon, romance or not, gets a fair shot is up to the writers. The audience isn`t required to give it a fair shot. If they ship something and the show doesn`t meet their expectations, they can stop watching or try to watch for something else or whatnot. Even demanding on social media 24/7 that the show makes their ship canon and ignores another doesn`t do any harm. So what? The actual writers can still ignore them.  

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Good romances aren't necessarily shippable by the masses

I disagree. In my experience a good romance usually gets people onboard. And I don`t even get the feeling that Westallen has a terrible response. Compared to other shows anyhow. It`s just that Flash is not a show solely focused on romance so that part is just a part. If people want to watch for comic book bonanza and rather ignore romanc-y parts, this show kinda allows you to do it.

Edited October 14, 2016 by Aeryn13

[phoenics]

19 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I don`t think people should feel obligated to like something, canon or otherwise. If it`s not working for them, it`s not working. Personally, I can tell after two or three eps tops if a couple or a character or really a storyline is working for me or not. And I usually find no reason in the show to change my mind later.

The writers and showrunners still ultimately decide on the direction the show goes in. Noone ever held a gun to their heads and forced them to cave to twitter or social media. If they, on the other hand, get network exec notes on characters (more Felicity on Arrow), yes, they have to listen but that`s got nothing to do with fandom. They also bask in the social media adoration whenever they have it, then turn around and whine when criticism comes in. 

You've twisted my words.  I said canon is never given a fair shake - as evidenced on The Flash, when a crack ship for that show popped up BEFORE the show even aired right after CP was cast.  That's what I mean.  Ship what you like - but don't reject canon just for the sake of being a "rebel".  That's annoying.  And that's a lot of what seems to happen nowadays.

On 10/13/2016 at 11:29 PM, catrice2 said:

I don't think we can adequately gauge how well Barry and Iris will work. I remember chemistry in a scene on the roof, when they were on the double date with Linda and Eddie and a couple of other times. It just seems as if the writers don't want to build that chemistry or write for it.

If they are not going to do that, they may as well bring in viable love interests for both.  Patty and Eddie were not interesting enough to make you pull for that pairing over what he could potentially have with Iris. If they would write Barry and Iris as a young romantic couple instead of teenagers in high school they may have something there.  

Let's start with a real kiss and some sexual interest.  It does not have to be overt (this is a family show) but allow Barry to look at Iris as a man and not a boy and vice versa. The problem with any romance on this show is that they write them more like they are Teen Titans than young professionals. 

I would like to see more passion with Barry/Iris and it's clear that CP/GG can bring that, they just have to write it and direct it.  I think they are trying to sell it as more of a true love thing, which means it's just "pure" rather than passionate - hopefully only for the moment.  I'm hoping they eventually just let GG/CP let go and play it in a more adult way.

But even still, I love their sweetness and for me, their chemistry still sizzles - it's clearly being held back though.

[phoenics]

9 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

But my point was that people not shipping the canon romance isn`t them being "mean" to the canon romance. Whether anything from canon, romance or not, gets a fair shot is up to the writers. The audience isn`t required to give it a fair shot. If they ship something and the show doesn`t meet their expectations, they can stop watching or try to watch for something else or whatnot.

Yeah - not what I was talking about.  I'm talking about the almost knee jerk non-canon crack ships that form before shows even air.  I'm not talking about fans rejecting something like Lauriver after it had been given a shot - I'm talking about fans rejecting Westallen before the first episode of The Flash even aired.  In fact, the rejection came when CP was cast (a crack ship was born that day).

[phoenics]

10 hours ago, driedfruit said:

Shipping isn't about whether a relationship is working as part of the story or not though, people could ship two characters who've never met and would never make sense as a couple (could even be incompatible species...). The point is, expecting the narrative of a show to meet fans' shipping desires (often innately based on a set of appealing tropes) is recipe for a disaster. Good romances aren't necessarily shippable by the masses, and shippable romances aren't necessarily a good romance (and could ruin a perfectly fine story).  

Anyway, Westallen are well acted and have a large fanbase, with no substantial competition. That's as much as any show can ask for. The writing hasn't been consistently great, but that's a larger problem for the show as a whole and as far as fixing goes, Westallen fall rather low on the priority of things that need it right now. (How about giving Iris and Wally more narrative purpose? Or is that too much to ask for?)

Tvguide recently had an article that praised The Flash writers for the slow burn of Westallen and saying it was very successful, vs poor James/Kara on Supergirl.  Considering how the press seemed to be crack shipping almost from the pilot of The Flash until later in S2, it's nice to finally see the media stop erasing Iris (though some still do) and Westallen.  I'm pretty sure the large and vocal Westallen fanbase helped the media stop the automatic "let's ship Barry with anyone but Iris" transparent kick they were on initially.

[CabotCove]

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I don`t think people should feel obligated to like something, canon or otherwise. If it`s not working for them, it`s not working. 

No they are not obligated, except the part where most dont even  even try to give a chance yet feel and demand that the show change their direction to pander to their wants?.

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The point is, expecting the narrative of a show to meet fans' shipping desires (often innately based on a set of appealing tropes) is recipe for a disaster. Good romances aren't necessarily shippable by the masses, and shippable romances aren't necessarily a good romance (and could ruin a perfectly fine story).  

? 

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Even demanding on social media 24/7 that the show makes their ship canon and ignores another doesn`t do any harm. So what? The actual writers can still ignore them.  

 

Except that it does harm, yes writers are accountable but they are human too and can be influenced. Both sides are accountable for the mess that ensues Imo.

Edited October 15, 2016 by DCLeague

[ruby24]

I don't know if Barry and Iris are ever going to sizzle, exactly, but I like them together. I like them a lot when Barry is extra nerdy, like last week when they were meeting for the first time, and their Earth-2 selves. I think he's more appealing when they let him embrace that geeky, un-coolness rather than trying to be smooth or whatever.

[Aeryn13]

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 I said canon is never given a fair shake - as evidenced on The Flash, when a crack ship for that show popped up BEFORE the show even aired right after CP was cast.  That's what I mean.  Ship what you like - but don't reject canon just for the sake of being a "rebel".  That's annoying.  And that's a lot of what seems to happen nowadays.

I wasn`t in the fandom then so I don`t really know about any pre-series kerfluffle. Is it annoying that people obviously went into raced-based-bitching territory if I understand you correctly? Yes, it is. Painfully so, people can suck. But the bitching in general is IMO not a problem that is endemic to the CW shows and fandom or even shipping overall.    

Movies and TV shows, especially comic book stuff - nearly all of them have that one casting choice, that one set of promo material or whatnot that seems like everyone hates it. And then the actual film or show comes out and people are either going "wow, I love this despite myself" or "wow, I hated it even more than I thought I would". This attitude and the platform for it has been given a rise along with the rise of social media and it`s not likely to go away anytime soon.

I still fully hold the individual writers, showrunners and filmmakers accountable. They WANT the social media for adoration and promotion when it suits them. On the flip side, I expect them to do the job they get paid for and not cave to it either. It`s not like noone deals with outside pressure in other jobs.