Spoilers With Speculation

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

We have seen exposure to Dean cause redemption a lot... Cas Benny, Crowley.... These are all characters that became better after close relationships with Dean. 

Not sure Sam has the track record yet...  Rowena is a far more complicated case as she is on record as stating that her experiences with Chuck and Amara started her thinking. I cannot think of another example.  

Not a fan of Adam.  The actor made little impression on me and the character did not have Winchester integrity.  I hope he is in heaven so they don't waste ink on him.

I would argue that Crowley is also a complicated case. I would argue that Sam had as much influence on Crowley going towards redemption as Dean did - maybe more, because Sam was the one who gave Crowley his blood and started Crowley getting addicted to "feelings." Crowley also seemed to care what Sam thought, even though Sam - understandably - hated him. Dean, on the other hand, had some negative affects on Crowley, too, especially when Crowley was getting Dean to get the mark of Cain and then when he was hanging out with Demon Dean. Dean was a bad influence on Crowley then, in my opinion.

As for other Sam examples, Sam doesn't often have many long term relationships shown where redemption is a factor, but there are a couple of examples of short-term redemption influence he's had. Maybe Lenore - at least to help give her some faith in people. Jesse, the antichrist for sure. Also Samuel Colt.

So there may be some hope for Rowena influence yet... and perhaps even Gabriel maybe.

Edited April 25, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[devlin]

I don’t care who JA is going to be playing. I could seriously watch this guy read the phone book and be completely enthralled. I am just looking forward to some powerhouse acting full of nuances by who I consider to be one of the best actors on tv

[mertensia]

Bah! Wrong thread!

Edited April 25, 2018 by mertensia

[DeeDee79]

8 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

We have seen exposure to Dean cause redemption a lot... Cas Benny, Crowley.... These are all characters that became better after close relationships with Dean. 

This is a good point. One of my favorite Dean/Crowley moments was when they had a drink and talked about family. That was a far cry from their interactions prior to that season. He may have been a demon but he always had a great rapport with Dean.

[SueB]

3 hours ago, devlin said:

I don’t care who JA is going to be playing. I could seriously watch this guy read the phone book and be completely enthralled. I am just looking forward to some powerhouse acting full of nuances by who I consider to be one of the best actors on tv

Legit.

[ILoveReading]

 

Sneak Peek.

Does Sam even want to rescue Mary and Jack? 

Edited April 25, 2018 by ILoveReading

[SueB]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

 

Sneak Peek.

Does Sam even want to rescue Mary and Jack? 

 

I'm not sure how you get that.  Unlike the characters, WE know the season is approaching the end and there's much ground to cover but he doesn't. It's not like he's settling into a MOTW episode.  He's just planning on searching the area for a few days.  Sam once said to Kevin, it's a marathon, not a sprint.  Dean has already gone into sprint mode and they may have a few more miles to go.  The boys don't actually know.  

Having said that... there's a reason for this scene beside free vibrating bed and Gabriel showing up.  I think Dean is desparately afraid of being "too late".  He mentioned that to Ketch in "Bring 'Em Back Alive."  That he was too late to get to Charlie in our universe.  And in the AU, they saved her just in the nick of time.  So, I get his concern.  But if he's been in this mode for two weeks, he NEEDS that massage. 

 

I'm not sure what this is laying the groundwork for, but we're setting up for something with Dean in a sprint and Sam ready for the marathon.  

To review the billing... if I was Dean I'd be thinking:
- what he says about the sick, dying, dead already situation
- that shit NEVER goes his way, which means he can't make a single mistake -- because he made a mistake thinking Mary was dead and now all this time has passed -- he's never going to get out of that hole so at least he can try to go 'error-free' the rest of the time
- he's just going to be able to bully Gabriel into doing what he wants - he could be back in the AU in less than 12 hours if he just finds Gabriel

What I think I'd be thinking if I was Sam:
- Mary is with Jack and he's powerful.  Ketch is going to find Mary and try to protect her.  Charlie will help too. They are in much better shape now than the start of the year.
- they are going to have to bargain with Gabriel because he doesn't give a shit for their or the world's needs, this is going to take some doing
- they are days, and more likely weeks away from getting back to the AU, presuming they can come up with something that causes Gabriel to play ball

Neither are wrong, they are coming from their experience.  Well, actually, Dean's hairshirt* he's wearing is not helpful right now.  I get why he's wearing it, but he can't sound too desparate w/ Gabriel (even if he is) because Gabriel is a dick and will exploit that. 

 

*Hairshirt

Edited April 25, 2018 by SueB

[ILoveReading]

14 minutes ago, SueB said:

I'm not sure how you get that.

Im going by Jared's body language.  Its not coming across as a guy gearing up for a marathon.  Its coming across like he doesn't want to be there.

I don't see Dean wearing a hair shirt, I see him trying to make the most of what they have.  He's right, as far as they know Gabriel is their only hope of getting back to the AU.   If they want to get back they have to convince him, and I understand Dean's sooner rather than later, because every day they wait Mary could be hurt or worse.

Which is strange becasue its a complete 180 from his "eh we can wait it will take time.'  Then there is Sam's 180 to 'its hopeless' the minute he found out they were alive. 

So even after Dean realized he made a mistake he was in marathon mode not, Sprint. 

I honestly have no idea what Dabb is doing with the characters this season.  (I question whether he does either).

Nothing about Sam and Dean is consistent.

Edited April 25, 2018 by ILoveReading

[trxr4kids]

12 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Nothing about Sam and Dean is consistent.

If I had any confidence in the show at all, I would think we're seeing alternate universes with only these state of mind shifts as an indication of the differences, sigh, I don't think that's what's going on.

[SueB]

31 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

If I had any confidence in the show at all, I would think we're seeing alternate universes with only these state of mind shifts as an indication of the differences, sigh, I don't think that's what's going on.

I think Dean has picked up some of Sam's compartmentalization skills and shoved down his horror at Mary's plight for a bit; especially because Sam was so down.  Now that they are getting close, and Sam seems to be okay-ish, Dean is letting his anxiety run free.  It's been a very personal year for them IMO.  But they've been operating, not in sync but in symbiosis. A push-me, pull-you survival technique where they are in agreement about what has to be done and are keeping each other going.  But they don't talk about it.  Because that would be not something they do.  They just instinctively pick up the slack for each other when one is off the rails, the other brings them back.  And it's not like they take turns: "it's been two weeks, my turn to lose my shit".  They are each responding to the daily dishout of info.  

ETA: This is not the same thing as codependency IMO. It's more like a life-time working partnership that meshes well.

Edited April 25, 2018 by SueB

[trxr4kids]

34 minutes ago, SueB said:

But they've been operating, not in sync but in symbiosis. A push-me, pull-you survival technique where they are in agreement about what has to be done and are keeping each other going.  But they don't talk about it.  Because that would be not something they do.  They just instinctively pick up the slack for each other when one is off the rails, the other brings them back.

I wish I could see this but it all seems nonsensical to me. Maybe it's all of the side characters I have zero interest in or what appears to be a throw it all the wall and see what sticks storyline approach but I'm left wondering WTF more than not. Maybe it'll all make sense to me in the final two episodes when they inevitably pack in everything including the kitchen sink ; )

Edited April 25, 2018 by trxr4kids
added to me since it clearly makes sense to a lot of people

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, trxr4kids said:

If I had any confidence in the show at all, I would think we're seeing alternate universes with only these state of mind shifts as an indication of the differences, sigh, I don't think that's what's going on.

I've had similar thoughts  and this are only fun if we are already in on the gag and right now we are not.

[Castiels Cat]

14 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I would argue that Crowley is also a complicated case. I would argue that Sam had as much influence on Crowley going towards redemption as Dean did - maybe more, because Sam was the one who gave Crowley his blood and started Crowley getting addicted to "feelings." Crowley also seemed to care what Sam thought, even though Sam - understandably - hated him. Dean, on the other hand, had some negative affects on Crowley, too, especially when Crowley was getting Dean to get the mark of Cain and then when he was hanging out with Demon Dean. Dean was a bad influence on Crowley then, in my opinion.

As for other Sam examples, Sam doesn't often have many long term relationships shown where redemption is a factor, but there are a couple of examples of short-term redemption influence he's had. Maybe Lenore - at least to help give her some faith in people. Jesse, the antichrist for sure. Also Samuel Colt.

So there may be some hope for Rowena influence yet... and perhaps even Gabriel maybe.

Crowley was for all practical purposes in love with Dean. He connived to turn him into a demon so that they could be besties forever and was the laughing stock of Hell because he dropped everything to be at Dean's beck and call.

We are not watching the same show.

Perhaps the writing will develop some relationships for Sam now rhat Dean is entrenched in the mytharc.  Before this seasonThe character has been seriously lacking in relationships and one episode characters are not relationships.  It doesn't help that Jensen has the knack of developing easy effortless chemistry with everyone he is paired with I guess.

[trxr4kids]

10 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Crowley was for all practical purposes in love with Dean. He connived to turn him into a demon so that they could be besties forever and was the laughing stock of Hell because he dropped everything to be at Dean's beck and call.

I think Crowley was "in love" with the idea of turning Alistair's apprentice into a tool to be used to take out several threats in one, namely Dean, Sam and Cas. Sam had weakened him during the trials, Cas had double crossed him and none of them would have pissed on him if he was burning. 

[AwesomO4000]

1 minute ago, Castiels Cat said:

Crowley was for all practical purposes in love with Dean. He connived to turn him into a demon so that they could be besties forever and was the laughing stock of Hell because he dropped everything to be at Dean's beck and call.

Taken to the Crowley thread.

[BoxManLocke]

http://tvline.com/gallery/may-sweeps-spoilers-2018-finale-episodes-photos/#!21/undefined/

 

Not much to take away from the TV Line May Sweeps Preview.

 

So Mary wants to stay in the AU because she can be a fighter and nothing else. How does that even make sense after the reconciliation in episode 12.22 ?

If Dean is possessed by something in the beggining of season 14 maybe that gives the opportunity for Mary to make it back and be with Sam/Castiel to try to save Dean. But all they've done with Mary so far is making her look like a douche between ridiculously long streches of absence. Why would they do that to her after going to so much trouble to bring her back ? What has her practiclally nonexistent development done for the show and other characters ? And do they even want to keep her at this point ?

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

Perhaps the writing will develop some relationships for Sam now rhat Dean is entrenched in the mytharc.  Before this seasonThe character has been seriously lacking in relationships and one episode characters are not relationships. 

If that were the case, they could have done so during season 9 and 10 when Dean had the mytharc... Unless you count Gadreel. Who knows? Maybe Gadreel's association with Sam helped him towards redemption. (That was mostly ruined for me by the unearned Gadreel propping in the end.)

There was also Amelia, but in my opinion the writing didn't really try to develop her as an interesting character. It was more about the "oh, no, her husband isn't dead. Whatever will Sam do?"

I liked Sam and Jodi before the recent seasons have seemed to downplay that relationship also.

And although it's not popular, I like Sam and Castiel's interaction. I find their relationship interesting because it didn't start out with a profound bound, but instead has evolved through time and many bumps in the road.

[Castiels Cat]

8 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

If that were the case, they could have done so during season 9 and 10 when Dean had the mytharc... Unless you count Gadreel. Who knows? Maybe Gadreel's association with Sam helped him towards redemption. (That was mostly ruined for me by the unearned Gadreel propping in the end.)

There was also Amelia, but in my opinion the writing didn't really try to develop her as an interesting character. It was more about the "oh, no, her husband isn't dead. Whatever will Sam do?"

I liked Sam and Jodi before the recent seasons have seemed to downplay that relationship also.

And although it's not popular, I like Sam and Castiel's interaction. I find their relationship interesting because it didn't start out with a profound bound, but instead has evolved through time and many bumps in the road.

In my opinion seasons 8-11 were about redeeming Sam which is exactly what happened. In season 11 Sam realized the error of his ways, changed his behavior, apologized to Sully and Dean, committed himsrlf to hunting, began taking responsibility for his actions and his mistakes... it was everything rhat should have happened post season 5 and did not.  So seadon 12 was resetting the board and now in seadon 13 we see the results of the reset. Dean has the mytharc big time and Sam is the human brother. 

Seasons 9 and 10 were not about Dean having the mytharc theybwete about Sam's reaction  to losing Dean. It was a repeat of seasons 3 and 4.

The is is why Dean as a demon was not explored. The point was to have Sam go dark not Dean. And Sam went dark... way darker than Dean. Sam manipulated Cas and Charlie,  getting her killed , nearly getting Cas killed. Sam sanctioned human sacrifice with Oscar and let's not get into what he did at the beginning of the season by brokering a demon deal.  He was far worse than demon Dean ever was.  And even tbough Dean repeatedly said stop.  He woyld not stop.  There was proof using the BoTD was bad. He would not stop. Badabing Baraboo. Yet another Apocalypse... this one all on Sam and called the Darkness.

So yeah.  Seasons 8-11 were all about exploring Sam's character and flaws and  redeeming Sam.

Now we are seeing Dean's.

30 minutes ago, BoxManLocke said:

http://tvline.com/gallery/may-sweeps-spoilers-2018-finale-episodes-photos/#!21/undefined/

 

Not much to take away from the TV Line May Sweeps Preview.

 

So Mary wants to stay in the AU because she can be a fighter and nothing else. How does that even make sense after the reconciliation in episode 12.22 ?

If Dean is possessed by something in the beggining of season 14 maybe that gives the opportunity for Mary to make it back and be with Sam/Castiel to try to save Dean. But all they've done with Mary so far is making her look like a douche between ridiculously long streches of absence. Why would they do that to her after going to so much trouble to bring her back ? What has her practiclally nonexistent development done for the show and other characters ? And do they even want to keep her at this point ?

She is Dean's Rosebud.

1 hour ago, trxr4kids said:

I think Crowley was "in love" with the idea of turning Alistair's apprentice into a tool to be used to take out several threats in one, namely Dean, Sam and Cas. Sam had weakened him during the trials, Cas had double crossed him and none of them would have pissed on him if he was burning. 

Which ecplains all of the bar pop ins, and risking his life to save Cas, and not killing Sam after he tried to kill him and sacrificing himself..

????!!!!

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, BoxManLocke said:

If Dean is possessed by something in the beggining of season 14 maybe that gives the opportunity for Mary to make it back and be with Sam/Castiel to try to save Dean. But all they've done with Mary so far is making her look like a douche between ridiculously long streches of absence. Why would they do that to her after going to so much trouble to bring her back ? What has her practiclally nonexistent development done for the show and other characters ? And do they even want to keep her at this point ?

IMO, they not only didn't evolve Mary, they devolved her. They took everything good we knew about her and made a mockery of it. And they took her greatest wish, to get out of the hunting life, and turned it on its head until now hunting is her salvation? She's willing to potentially never see her sons again because hunting is pure? What utter, ret-connning, bullshit. I hope she does stay there and I hope Dean slams the door shut behind her.

Edited April 26, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[DeeDee79]

48 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Which ecplains all of the bar pop ins, and risking his life to save Cas, and not killing Sam after he tried to kill him and sacrificing himself..

Quite true. Also, in The Hunter Games Crowley showed up as soon as Dean called because: "I thought you’d wanna go for a beer, catch a film." True he was softened by the human blood but in the later seasons he was more amicable than hostile.

[SueB]

Quote

SUPERNATURAL

Despite his reluctance, Gabriel eventually joins the fight to save Mary and Jack, executive producer Robert Singer says. But when Dean and Sam reunite with their mom, they find that “she, in an odd way, has found a home [in apocalypse world] where she can be a pure fighter. It causes a little bit of tension between her and the boys.” Speaking of family reunions, Lucifer will at last come face-to-face with his son. “He’s very tricky [in] the way he finally has this meeting with Jack, who is a little confused about it,” Singer describes. “It causes a certain amount of consternation for both of them.” 

Plus, for the first time, star Jensen Ackles will play a character who is not Dean Winchester. The mystery persona is someone viewers have seen before, “many years ago,” Singer hints, while EP Andrew Dabb predicts that fans will be both “happy and terrified” after the reveal. As for the more soldier-like Cas, “things are going to get bad enough at the end of the season that Sam and Dean are going to want that warrior mentality on their side,” his portrayer Misha Collins shares.

SEASON FINALE AIRS MAY 17

from TVLine

- Mary: As I said a few days ago, makes sense to me from a character perspective but I wish we had a better solution in our universe.  But while just her safe & alive is moderately okay resolution for Dean (IMO he needed to forgive her and did... although of course I would have liked more), I think Sam is not remotely resolved.  So, I need to see something that does that.
- Luci/Jack: "a certain amount of consternation for both of them".  Well, that sounds like a single episode engagement with no resolution at all.  Makes it a higher probability that both Luci & Jack are there for S14 IMO.
- Singer's definition of "many" is likely to be longer than others IMO -- I think this character had to appear no later than S4/S5.  Still keeps Michael in the running (and Death) but I'm not certain it'll be either.  

Others: 

AUAzazel 

Gabriel 

AULilith 

AUAlastair

Raphael

Edited April 26, 2018 by SueB

[trxr4kids]

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

Which ecplains all of the bar pop ins, and risking his life to save Cas, and not killing Sam after he tried to kill him and sacrificing himself..

????!!!!

Um, because it was Crowley and he had a long term plan, he had plans within plans, until that was obliterated anyway < massive sigh and eye roll>

[belbar]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

IMO, they not only didn't evolve Mary, they devolved her. They took everything good we knew about her and made a mockery of it. And they took her greatest wish, to get out of the hunting life, on its head until now hunting is her salvation? She's willing to potentially never see her sons again because hunting is pure? What utter, ret-connning, bullshit. I hope she does stay there and I hope Dean slams the door shut behind her.

Exactly this. Everybody is so focused in making clear that she's so much more than a mom and is super duper at everything and blah blah blah but the truth is that prior to her miraculous resurrection the only thing that we knew about her (other than the way she died) is that she'd never wanted any part of the hunting life. The night her parents died she was running away with her boyfriend trying to scape from it. She wanted that family apple pie life that now is a sin to her. All this story has been a huge retcon (and one badly done in my opinion) from the start at every level, and none of it makes any sense at all. They destroyed one of the main and basic characters of the story, as you've mentioned before,  they have soured the enjoyment of rewatching so many great episodes, and all that for what. They've done nothing with it. 

Yes, I agree with you and really hope that she choses to stay behind and Dean slams the door shut behind her but for good. 

[7kstar]

1 hour ago, belbar said:

Exactly this. Everybody is so focused in making clear that she's so much more than a mom and is super duper at everything and blah blah blah but the truth is that prior to her miraculous resurrection the only thing that we knew about her (other than the way she died) is that she'd never wanted any part of the hunting life. The night her parents died she was running away with her boyfriend trying to scape from it. She wanted that family apple pie life that now is a sin to her. All this story has been a huge retcon (and one badly done in my opinion) from the start at every level, and none of it makes any sense at all. They destroyed one of the main and basic characters of the story, as you've mentioned before,  they have soured the enjoyment of rewatching so many great episodes, and all that for what. They've done nothing with it. 

I think many are not thrilled with what they did with Mary and wished she hadn't been brought back.  It could have been interesting and so full of possibilities that have been wasted.  So I want a resolution, something that will make bringing her back something worthwhile.  I don't have much in the hope department due to the writing has been all over the place, but they need to do something smart.  I'm fine with give them what they wish but not as they expect, but the surprise needs to have a nice payoff.  Make it worth my time.

 

I can't say I'm excited about Dean playing someone other than himself.  Can Jensen do it, of course.  But we've been down this road too many times with Demon Dean being a whole 3 eps.   So the track record just isn't there.  So I'm not holding my breath that they will do it right.  I can be surprised and will gladly eat my words but I won't set myself up again.

They have set up heaven needing more angels and how much devastation it will cause if they don't do something, so this will mean what?  I'm bored with Lucifer so I hope they get rid of him.  Crowley was a more interesting character.  Lucifer just needs to go away.  Let him get stuck with bad Michael.

 

I think my biggest issue is that they have created some good beats, something with promise but lack the talent to make it work.  Why I don't know.  Is it because no one is able to see the big picture?  It just makes it frustrating and I want the writers to win us over.  I want to feel compelled to watch every Thursday...

[catrox14]

12 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

 

Sneak Peek.

Does Sam even want to rescue Mary and Jack? 

Okay. Something is wrong with Sam. He's been totally weird. I don't get it.

[companionenvy]

IMO, what's wrong with Sam is that the same time the writers decided Dean was a slob who didn't know what the Butterfly Effect was, they decided that Sam's MO is being broody and uptight. 

[AwesomO4000]

18 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

IMO, what's wrong with Sam is that the same time the writers decided Dean was a slob who didn't know what the Butterfly Effect was, they decided that Sam's MO is being broody and uptight.

And also that the brothers can't just agree on anything ever, or be in the same mood / headspace ever. *sigh*

[catrox14]

7 hours ago, companionenvy said:

they decided that Sam's MO is being broody and uptight. 

 

IMO, Sam's always been that way going back to s1. That's not a knock on Sam either.. It's part of his personality IMO aka Sam's bitchface which has been present since s1 and is one of the consistent things about Sam's characterization. What is new however is his apparent reticence to save Mary. And I'll take the rest of my reply to the bitter spoilers thread.

[ILoveReading]

[catrox14]

26 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

That's from Sir Francis  Bacon's essay  "On Revenge".

Taking the rest of my reply to bitter spoilers.

[Jonesy]

IMO the charge that the brothers have been written out of character and inconsistent is way overstated--they have alternated on being positive or negative due to circumstances...they don't always have to be in the same narrow band all the time.  And the brothers have been on the same page a lot even if sometimes they are not.   Also Dean isn't just written as a slob or whatever--he's been shown with many heroic characteristics too...it's not just one dimensional.

 

With regards to TVLine--it's cool that Dabb is keeping Cas as a warrior and that the brothers are with it in the tough state their world is. 

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, Jakes said:

IMO the charge that the brothers have been written out of character and inconsistent is way overstated--they have alternated on being positive or negative due to circumstances...they don't always have to be in the same narrow band all the time.  And the brothers have been on the same page a lot even if sometimes they are not.   Also Dean isn't just written as a slob or whatever--he's been shown with many heroic characteristics too...it's not just one dimensional.

LOL no one said they had to be in the same narrow band. That said, people do have traits.

I'm not talking about them not being on the same page. They are practically amoebic in there morphing and it's not being explained. That's my beef. No one has to agree with it.

Who said Dean is only being written as a slob? No one has said that. That's misstating it. The issue is that the show is NOT explaining why Dean has become more gross and slovenly when he wasn't that way before. So until they give me a reason to understand his change, then IMO it is OOC writing.

[Jonesy]

17 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

LOL no one said they had to be in the same narrow band. That said, people do have traits.

I'm not talking about them not being on the same page. They are practically amoebic in there morphing and it's not being explained. That's my beef. No one has to agree with it.

Who said Dean is only being written as a slob? No one has said that. That's misstating it. The issue is that the show is NOT explaining why Dean has become more gross and slovenly when he wasn't that way before. So until they give me a reason to understand his change, then IMO it is OOC writing.

Someone said Dean was written as a slob while ignoring all the positive traits Dabb era has him have--so I was adding balance.  And Dean always had elements of slobbery and/or casualness--so adding comic riffs on that is fun and Jensen loves comic riffing on Dean's character.  Don't think the brothers are morphing either, don't see it.  Dean is still Dean and Sam is still Sam.  IMO there is not much OOC writing--overstated imo.  Is the writing perfect for the brothers?  No--but not wildly out of whack.

Edited April 26, 2018 by Jakes

[companionenvy]

I wasn't saying Dean didn't have positive traits. Of course he does. I'm saying that, IMO, the show has increasingly relied on caricatured versions of the brothers for comic relief, even when it makes no sense for their character, i.e Sam grumbling about stealing or Dean's point of reference for the butterfly effect being Ashton Kutcher. 

[Jonesy]

24 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I wasn't saying Dean didn't have positive traits. Of course he does. I'm saying that, IMO, the show has increasingly relied on caricatured versions of the brothers for comic relief, even when it makes no sense for their character, i.e Sam grumbling about stealing or Dean's point of reference for the butterfly effect being Ashton Kutcher. 

I get you--I'm saying my take is the comic bits I've almost always enjoyed and overall are only a small part of their total presentation of the boys.  So we just differ on that.

[SueB]

Article prior to tonight's ep:

The Mary Sue interviews "Gabriel & Jack"

Much discussion in the bitterness thread but since "bitter" is not my cup of tea, I've brought it here to discuss as well.

 

Quote

 While Dean (Jensen Ackles) has always shared a more profound bond with Castiel (Misha Collins), it’s Sam (Jared Padalecki) who’s had the most connection with the erstwhile trickster, and there’s good reason for that, according to Speight: “I think Gabriel has always had a soft spot, or softer spot, for Sam … Gabriel deals with these alpha older brothers, especially Lucifer, that have just been the bane of his existence. And I think that sort of Alpha, Dean-ness that Jensen brings to the character can really spark a negative response in Gabriel, whereas Sam’s approach is typically on the less heavy-handed side … Though Gabriel against his own instincts, likes them both, there’s something less abrasive about Sam that he relates better to.”

I see this.  He 'wasted' a fair amount of time trying to get Sam to let go of his brother and in the end, gave his brother back to Sam just because Sam begged.  Total dick move on Gabriel's part but I think Sam coul see that in Gabriel's twisted mind, Gabriel thought he was helping.  

I also see Gabriel put Dean in the roll of dick older brother and thus generally not like him.  Just like he thought Michael, Lucifer and Raphael were dicks.  

So, Gabriel "identifying" with Sam makes sense to me.  But I suspect that he can't help himself but like Dean's snark and love of the ladies.  He probably relates to Dean's hedonistic tendancies (under the right conditions).  Sam is not that guy, but Dean is.  So, while I see him identifying with Sam from a "brother's" perspective, I think he admires Dean's 'style' just as Dean admired the Tricksters.

I do expect Dean to rail at him for ditching a few weeks ago.  Dean would naturally put responsibility on Gabriel and Gabriel is having none of that.  So, I expect conflict and Sam to act as mediator.  

Quote

And according to Calvert, there is one female character from the apocalypse world that Jack bonds with specifically. “She’s a hugely influential character. And she comes to represent the people of the apocalypse world to Jack.” 

Presuming it's not Mary, it could be Charlie or it could be random character we haven't seen yet. I would LOVE it if it was Jo.  That would be a helluva surprise. But if it is, they've kept that under wraps. 

As for tonight, with the .gif I showed of Jack protecting Mary, I wonder if Kevin and the guys Mary & Jack come with are killed in the scene where there's the big glowing white light.  I hope not.  I'd like to see Aderall-deprived Kevin get a chance to work for the good guys.  And maybe they can find him some meds.     

[Castiels Cat]

48 minutes ago, SueB said:

Article prior to tonight's ep:

The Mary Sue interviews "Gabriel & Jack"

Much discussion in the bitterness thread but since "bitter" is not my cup of tea, I've brought it here to discuss as well.

 

I see this.  He 'wasted' a fair amount of time trying to get Sam to let go of his brother and in the end, gave his brother back to Sam just because Sam begged.  Total dick move on Gabriel's part but I think Sam coul see that in Gabriel's twisted mind, Gabriel thought he was helping.  

I also see Gabriel put Dean in the roll of dick older brother and thus generally not like him.  Just like he thought Michael, Lucifer and Raphael were dicks.  

So, Gabriel "identifying" with Sam makes sense to me.  But I suspect that he can't help himself but like Dean's snark and love of the ladies.  He probably relates to Dean's hedonistic tendancies (under the right conditions).  Sam is not that guy, but Dean is.  So, while I see him identifying with Sam from a "brother's" perspective, I think he admires Dean's 'style' just as Dean admired the Tricksters.

I do expect Dean to rail at him for ditching a few weeks ago.  Dean would naturally put responsibility on Gabriel and Gabriel is having none of that.  So, I expect conflict and Sam to act as mediator.  

Presuming it's not Mary, it could be Charlie or it could be random character we haven't seen yet. I would LOVE it if it was Jo.  That would be a helluva surprise. But if it is, they've kept that under wraps. 

As for tonight, with the .gif I showed of Jack protecting Mary, I wonder if Kevin and the guys Mary & Jack come with are killed in the scene where there's the big glowing white light.  I hope not.  I'd like to see Aderall-deprived Kevin get a chance to work for the good guys.  And maybe they can find him some meds.     

Jo would be a nice touch.  More angst for Dean if he loses her again.

4 hours ago, companionenvy said:

I wasn't saying Dean didn't have positive traits. Of course he does. I'm saying that, IMO, the show has increasingly relied on caricatured versions of the brothers for comic relief, even when it makes no sense for their character, i.e Sam grumbling about stealing or Dean's point of reference for the butterfly effect being Ashton Kutcher. 

It was a badly written line because these writers are sloppy.  Dean used to be genius with the pop culture bon mots.  It was meant to be one of his witty pop culture references that Dean could just cleverly slide into the conversation like he was out talking Quentin Tarantino.

They do not write them like they used to.

[Castiels Cat]

On 4/25/2018 at 9:04 PM, trxr4kids said:

Um, because it was Crowley and he had a long term plan, he had plans within plans, until that was obliterated anyway < massive sigh and eye roll>

No.  Not at all.  He wanted nothing more than to be in the impala with Dean. 

He was desperate for human connection. 

He tried to be a son, a father, a friend, have a bromance.

Crowley's slow crawl towards humanity and Dean was one of the Best things that happened in the last few seasons.

Too bad you missed it.

I bet you think Benny had nefarious plans too and was conning Dean the entire time too.

Edited April 27, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

21 hours ago, SueB said:

from TVLine

- Mary: As I said a few days ago, makes sense to me from a character perspective but I wish we had a better solution in our universe.  But while just her safe & alive is moderately okay resolution for Dean (IMO he needed to forgive her and did... although of course I would have liked more), I think Sam is not remotely resolved.  So, I need to see something that does that.
- Luci/Jack: "a certain amount of consternation for both of them".  Well, that sounds like a single episode engagement with no resolution at all.  Makes it a higher probability that both Luci & Jack are there for S14 IMO.
- Singer's definition of "many" is likely to be longer than others IMO -- I think this character had to appear no later than S4/S5.  Still keeps Michael in the running (and Death) but I'm not certain it'll be either.  

Others: 

AUAzazel 

Gabriel 

AULilith 

AUAlastair

Raphael

"Many years ago"  almost certainly a reference to Michael because we mostly saw him in a flashback in the seventies!!! And then in Stull so briefly.

I am convinced AU Michael is a MacGuffin and the real magic will be getting these characters together.  Luci + Jack. Mary + boys.  Lost Characters + Winchesters. Dean!Michael +Lucifer.

Rowena + Lucifer. Billie + Dean.  Gabriel...  

[Castiels Cat]

21 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

Quite true. Also, in The Hunter Games Crowley showed up as soon as Dean called because: "I thought you’d wanna go for a beer, catch a film." True he was softened by the human blood but in the later seasons he was more amicable than hostile.

Exactly.  Crowley and Dean had quite the thing.  They talked about things in a a way that neither character did with anyone else.  When the writers eased up on the profound bond and killed off Benny Dean hung with Crowley.  Dean likes a good bromance.

I really want a spin-off featuring Dean and his bros ... Castiel, Benny, Crowley and Ketch.  

My favorite episodes always feature Dean with one of his bromance buddies off drinking, torturing, hunting or surviving.  

I would really enjoy this.  Sam could run a roadhouse and every 4 episodes or so they could stop by for some bitchface and a lecture.

It would rock.

Edited April 26, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[devlin]

In regards to speights interview i take from that the idea that gabe is intimidated by dean. It’s probably the opposite of what he was intending but oh well

[trxr4kids]

57 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

No.  Not at all.  He wanted nothing more than to be in the impala with Dean. 

He was desperate for human connection. 

He tried to be a son, a father, a friend, have a romance.

Crowley's slow crawl towards humanity and Dean was one of the Best things that happened in the last few seasons.

Too bad you missed it.

Alrighty then, thanks for pointing out my laughably flawed interpretation of Crowley and Dean, clearly I'm just delusional.

58 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

I bet you think Benny had nefarious plans too and was conning Dean the entire time too.

Well I previously thought he was a brother in arms but now I might have to reconsider, lol.

[MysteryGuest]

I don't have a problem with Mary staying in the AU, but if they don't get to that point in a way that makes sense, and instead go the drama route just to shit on the boys a bit more, I'm going to be annoyed.  Having her stay there could be a great solution for her character.  But there's no reason they couldn't write that storyline without making her cold and distant from her sons.  As hunters themselves, they would understand her desire to stay and help those people.  There's no need to make her a bitch and an uber hunter to get to the same ending.  Why is this so difficult for these writers? 

[ILoveReading]

Season finale description.  I fixed the typo though.

SUPERNATURAL
“Let the Good Times Roll” — (8:00-9:00 p.m. ET) (Content Rating TBD) (HDTV)

IT ALL COMES DOWN TO THIS – Our heroes, Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) Winchester, continue to be tested in the battle between good and evil, but one impulsive decision could alter the lives of one the brothers forever. (for three episodes) Robert Singer directed the episode written by Andrew Dabb (#1323). Original airdate 5/17/2018.

 

https://www.spoilertv.com/2018/04/supernatural-episode-1323-let-good.html

They really need to stop saying forever.

[catrox14]

I do think Crowley was kind of obsessed with Dean. Crowley never understood that Dean didn't like him. I think Dean put up with him more after they caroused a while.

 As to Dean having other friends in the future...I don't see that with Ketch who IMO has his own agenda for helping.  I think it's likely that the show is going to have Gabriel around for Sam and Cas for Dean.

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

Season finale description.  I fixed the typo though.

SUPERNATURAL
“Let the Good Times Roll” — (8:00-9:00 p.m. ET) (Content Rating TBD) (HDTV)

IT ALL COMES DOWN TO THIS – Our heroes, Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) Winchester, continue to be tested in the battle between good and evil, but one impulsive decision could alter the lives of one the brothers forever. (for three episodes) Robert Singer directed the episode written by Andrew Dabb (#1323). Original airdate 5/17/2018.

 

https://www.spoilertv.com/2018/04/supernatural-episode-1323-let-good.html

They really need to stop saying forever.

They really do. There is no way the show will kill off Dean only to bring back Jensen full time playing someone else nor would Jensen accept that as a long term thing. No way. He won't finish the show playing a different character other than Dean Winchester. NO WAY

[ILoveReading]

22 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I don't have a problem with Mary staying in the AU, but if they don't get to that point in a way that makes sense, and instead go the drama route just to shit on the boys a bit more, I'm going to be annoyed.  Having her stay there could be a great solution for her character.  But there's no reason they couldn't write that storyline without making her cold and distant from her sons.  As hunters themselves, they would understand her desire to stay and help those people.  There's no need to make her a bitch and an uber hunter to get to the same ending.  Why is this so difficult for these writers? 

I don't disagree with what your saying.  I think this solution would work better if the show actually spent time developing a relationship between her and her sons last season.  But where they left things it felt like they were all gearing up to start over.  Since Mary spent much of her time pushing her sons away how do the writers avoid it looking like this.

[BoxManLocke]

 

Looks good honestly, finally things are advancing.

 

Also Berens scripts very rarely disappoint me, so I'm going to be optimistic for once.

Edited April 27, 2018 by BoxManLocke

[SueB]

Looks like they leave Rowena behind to watch the rift and Lucifer breaks into the MoL and goes through.  Will he kill Rowena or just scare the shit out of her?

[BoxManLocke]

20 minutes ago, SueB said:

Looks like they leave Rowena behind to watch the rift and Lucifer breaks into the MoL and goes through.  Will he kill Rowena or just scare the shit out of her?

Not sure what having Lucifer kill Rowena for the third time would accomplish, but that encounter is going to have a major effect on either Sam, Dean or Cass, according to the official description.

I suppose Sam is the most likely candidate given what they're doing with him and Lucifer, but I wonder how that's going to play out.

[Castiels Cat]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I do think Crowley was kind of obsessed with Dean. Crowley never understood that Dean didn't like him. I think Dean put up with him more after they caroused a while.

 As to Dean having other friends in the future...I don't see that with Ketch who IMO has his own agenda for helping.  I think it's likely that the show is going to have Gabriel around for Sam and Cas for Dean.

They really do. There is no way the show will kill off Dean only to bring back Jensen full time playing someone else nor would Jensen accept that as a long term thing. No way. He won't finish the show playing a different character other than Dean Winchester. NO WAY

Crowley received a shout out from Dean after he died and Dean ackonwkedged his sacrifice to Rowena. I do believehe has earned his stripes.

Yeah Ketch and ,Dean were just too much fun to watch in every iteration. 

Who said anything about Dean dying...

I think Dean coukd be slowly dying and Part of the,Michael deask is to cure/resurrect him + save the world + save Mom/ Sam/ erc. in exchange for being his vessel...

Obviously angels,require living vessels 

I know I wrote resurrect/cure 

Edited April 27, 2018 by Castiels Cat