Spoilers With Speculation

[Castiels Cat]

AU Michael is the Macguffin anyhow. He really doesn't matter.  All he is there for is motivation or to get characters to move to their end game positions.   

IMO The entire point has been  to reset everything up for Dean!Michael vs Lucifer I suspect unless wildcard Jack changes things.  Luci on low juice has,added some pesky feelings into the mix.  Not enough to make him step up for heaven but enough that he has  been an ersatz boyfriend to Amael and has not offed her despite her sass.  It is,a,bew look for him.

The question is what will the upcoming confrontation with a very emotional Jack bring.   Emotions make both more powerful.   

My gut says if they give us Dean!Michael,  he will want to kill Lucifer and Rowena and Dean woukd probably make it part ofcthe deal. Perhaps this will be after a sweet redemptive moment for Luci.  
Didn't team Angel do that to Lindsay.  Allow him be part of the team for redemption then kill him because they didn't really trust him?

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, Casseiopeia said:

Zack was Michaels fixer.  He didn't care how Zacharia did it as long as he got Dean to say yes.  Torture Adam, kill him he didn't care what his hatchet man did. Michael was the one who orchestrated the Apocalypse or the planetary enema.  Michael was senior management. He let Lilith break the seals, sent Castiel to Bible Camp in order for Ruby to complete her task.  The whole point of the 5 season arc was to let Lucifer out in order for Michael to kill him.  Michael didn't care how many people died in the process.  Dean was right to say no.  Adam was stupid to say yes.  

Speculation.  

Michael and Dean were meant to be mirrors as were Sam and Lucifer.

Michael believed he was following dad's plan.

The angels were a hierarchy all about following the plan.

All we know is that Zechariah was charged with getting Dean to say yes.  Since we do not see him pull out a bullet sheet of detailed instructions we have to assume that he made decisuons,as to how to get Dean how to say yes much as,we watched Cas make decisions as to how to teach Dean how to lead. Cas also did not receive a detailed bullet list of how to proceed.

We saw in great detail how Zachariah was.

We have very little information on Michael. All we know is the one episode with Matt Cohen and how he personally treated Dean despite the fact that Dean defied his role in heaven's plan.  In my opinion Michael behaved like a gentleman. 

Considering he might have killed every single person Dean cared about l, killed people in front of Dean for sport, had angels do any number of horrible things for funsies... 

I know people love to hate on him but I see no rationale for it and the evidence is circumstantial.

Zachariah deserves all the hate.  Raphael is despicable.  Lucifer is awful.  Peiole love Gabriel and he killed Dean gazillion times tortured and killed innocents for fun, is lazy and selfish...

Michael... a bit stiff.  Workaholic Maybe.  Too much into duty.  )_(

[Casseiopeia]

1 minute ago, Castiels Cat said:

In my opinion Michael behaved like a gentleman.

Really?  He seemed to be selling snake oil to me.  Besides wasn't the big showdown between Michael and Lucifer supposed to mirror Cain and Abel?   Before Carver/Robbie rewrote biblical/Supernatural history Cain was the bad guy.   Michael's only goal in S5 was to kill his brother no matter how much it cost Dean or humanity.   How was Dean supposed to live with the fact that he killed Sam?

[AwesomO4000]

21 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

We have very little information on Michael. All we know is the one episode with Matt Cohen and how he personally treated Dean despite the fact that Dean defied his role in heaven's plan.  In my opinion Michael behaved like a gentleman. 

Taken to the "All Episodes Talk" thread.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Dean never said yes to Michael, technically or otherwise. He told Zachariah he would say yes, and then Zach called Michael down. I'm not sure what the last part of your statement means.

I thought Dean did technically say yes after Zach started killing Sam.  Zach asked him "So, is that a yes" . Dean was crying and said, "Yes....dammit. Yes"  Then Zach called down Michael and in between Dean said.."on a few conditions" and then Dean killed Zach. Sam and Dean left and Adam was trapped which is why I think he was possessed because he had already said yes.

I don't know if that means it's an open yes now, or if Dean would have to say yes again.

[SueB]

11 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Bold part:

This is the key.  Billie is a Death.   OG Juilan Richings played THE Death, the Horseman. AFAIK, she was not promoted to a Horseman. So that means IMO she is a reaper that wears Death's ring and does that job. I don't think she became a different kind of entity like the Four Horseman.

 

The ring, the Scythe and the reading room sealed it for me.  "Death" appears to be an office, not a person.  NGL, I'm somewhat tortured by the thought we don't get the awesome Julian/Jensen scenes.  They were so good.  And I do LIKE Lisa as Billie.  In this last episode, her scene with Ruth was breath-taking.  But the chill that goes down my spine when Julian shows is not the same for Billie.  Maybe he'll be spit out of The Empty someday to snark at Dean about his life choices again.  For now, I think Billie is in the office of Death and "former reaper" seems to be part of the job application.  Of course Dean DID do some reaping, he just didn't have the escort duty.  

 

So where are we and what do we have coming up:
- Now part of the TFW Support Brigade: Ketch & Rowena, both seeking redemption
- Next up Gabriel.  We know he starts supporting TFW because in the next episode (13.20) he tries to get help w/ taking out the ones who captured him for Asmodeus but in 13.21 he's helping them bring Jack & Mary home.
- Also in this episode, however, is: 

Quote

Meanwhile, Rowena’s (guest star Ruth Connell) encounter with Lucifer (Mark Pellegrino) may alter the outcome of the journey for one of our heroes. 

- Well, who are "our heroes".  Is it limited to Sam & Dean? Sam, Dean & Castiel? Sam, Dean, Castiel, Jack & Mary?  Sam, Dean, Castiel and the entire Support Brigade? Since I think Ketch, Rowena & Gabriel are far from 'our heroes', I'm going to go with TFW 1.0.  Personally I'm convinced that Dabb isn't interested in anyone other than Mark P. playing Lucifer anymore.  Subsequently, what would Rowena do with Lucifer which would alter the outcome?  Some options include 1) taking him off the board (put him back in the cage or kill him), 2) somehow power him up due to a backfire, 3) Send him back to the AU (since we know in the next episode he is with Jack). 4) Take Rowena off the board and it impacts the rescue mission, 5) send Rowena WITH Luci over to the AU, ... I could go on and on.  But then I thought.. but it affects out boys.  SO, how about if Rowena tries to send Luci to the cage and it cracks open the cage further?  Thus letting our Michael out.

Since we have spoilers putting Ruth & Mark P in the last two episodes, I'm thinking it's either sends one or both to the AU or lets Michael out.  Somehow the knock on effect of that encouter cuts off an avenue or opens one up.  

Also... when did "13.22 Apocalypse Now" turn into "13.22 Exodus"?  And THAT's an ominous title (or hopeful if you think it's Angels attacking or Angels getting taken up to Heaven to be batteries). 

 

Just for the record... I don't think Michael!Dean is needed.  Like, at all.  But I can see the set-up.  "Big shoes to fill"... I'm still stuck with that phrasing.  Along with "Dean steps up".  Is saying "yes" to being a vessel stepping up?  Dean being the bomb in S11 was Dean stepping up IMO.  Not only was he going to die, he had to get close enough to Amara to set it off.  But other than giving up his body for a vessel (and maybe going insane or never getting it back), does that require leadership or skill on Dean's part?  Does he think he's going to be able to wrestle control like Sam did?  That was a one-in-a-million shot that was trigger (IMO) by a weakness on Lucifer's combined with a motivated Sam.  Or will Dean TRY to take control and it fails... so Michael takes off with his body?  That would kinda suck.  I just don't know.  Something isn't adding up for me. 

Edited April 23, 2018 by SueB

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, SueB said:

The ring, the Scythe and the reading room sealed it for me.  "Death" appears to be an office, not a person.  NGL, I'm somewhat tortured by the thought we don't get the awesome Julian/Jensen scenes

How do you account for the fact that Death was a Horseman? A Horseman isn't an office, it's a God like entity. He wasn't an Angel even if he was called the Angel of Death, which I recollect was some attempt to rationalize how angels could be reapers. And  War, Famine and Pestilence weren't angels. Also, Billie wasn't Death or even "a Death" in s11 which was after Death died.

Why were humans still able to die if there was no Death? I can't fathom why Death would have a library of deaths when he was Death? I'm not being snarky. 

IMO someone else set up that Library of deaths but not OG Death. It's cold and harsh like Heaven. Did some angel do it?  

For me, to say that Death is an office and not an entity completely diminishes the character unnecessarily and I have a hard time believing that is what the show intended with Billie getting a promotion.

I mean what if Cas had never killed Billie? What if one of the random reapers Rowena killed got a promotion?

So that's why to me, since Death is not an office but an entity, he can still come back and be an entity inside Dean.

[ahrtee]

21 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

How do you account for the fact that Death was a Horseman? A Horseman isn't an office, it's a God like entity. He wasn't an Angel even if he was called the Angel of Death, which I recollect was some attempt to rationalize how angels could be reapers. And  War, Famine and Pestilence weren't angels. Also, Billie wasn't Death or even "a Death" in s11 which was after Death died.

Why were humans still able to die if there was no Death? I can't fathom why Death would have a library of deaths when he was Death? I'm not being snarky. 

IMO someone else set up that Library of deaths but not OG Death. It's cold and harsh like Heaven. Did some angel do it?  

For me, to say that Death is an office and not an entity completely diminishes the character unnecessarily and I have a hard time believing that is what the show intended with Billie getting a promotion.

I mean what if Cas had never killed Billie? What if one of the random reapers Rowena killed got a promotion?

So that's why to me, since Death is not an office but an entity, he can still come back and be an entity inside Dean.

The whole SPN concept of Death has always been a little wonky.

"The Death" (ie, the Horseman) was locked away for millennia until Luci raised him in s. 5.  So who was in charge for all that time?  Ditto War, Famine and Pestilence.  *None* of the Horsemen are currently functional (alive or not), and all the things they're supposedly in charge of seem to be ticking along merrily without their oversight.  (There weren't any repercussions for the boys killing or disabling them, either...)

So apparently the Horsemen themselves aren't necessary to the smooth running of the world. 

Reapers apparently just get orders of who to pick up and when.  Dean asked who made the list and Tessa never told him.  It was implied (I thought) that it was Death, but in that case, see the point above.  Who made the list while Death was locked away?  

Next, where do the Fates fit in with all that?  Remember My Heart Will Go On, where the Fates were apparently (still) making life and death decisions (and being pissed at the possibility of being put out of a job?)  

So...maybe the Fates make the list, whoever happens to be Death at the moment kills 'em and Reapers pick them up; in which case Death *is* the office and the Horseman is the CEO who delegates all the work to his underlings. He may be the highest paid entity, but is not necessary to keep the office running.  

[SueB]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

How do you account for the fact that Death was a Horseman? A Horseman isn't an office, it's a God like entity. He wasn't an Angel even if he was called the Angel of Death, which I recollect was some attempt to rationalize how angels could be reapers. And  War, Famine and Pestilence weren't angels. Also, Billie wasn't Death or even "a Death" in s11 which was after Death died.

Why were humans still able to die if there was no Death? I can't fathom why Death would have a library of deaths when he was Death? I'm not being snarky. 

IMO someone else set up that Library of deaths but not OG Death. It's cold and harsh like Heaven. Did some angel do it?  

For me, to say that Death is an office and not an entity completely diminishes the character unnecessarily and I have a hard time believing that is what the show intended with Billie getting a promotion.

I mean what if Cas had never killed Billie? What if one of the random reapers Rowena killed got a promotion?

So that's why to me, since Death is not an office but an entity, he can still come back and be an entity inside Dean.

Well she has the ring and the Horseman all have rings.  So now she's a Horseman too.   I don't like it as an office versus a person either.  Death the experience (versus the entity) seems a constant.  It happens whether or not Death the entity is around.  Death the entity seems to be necessary for events that are beyond the natural order (like raising the dead, taking out Chicago, etc...).  In my little mental construct, to assume the role of Death the entity, you get powered up and new gear.  Which means there is some supernatural phenmomenon going on.  Perhaps some fail-safe left by God to ensure Death the entity was able to operate when needed.  If things were ho-hum for centuries then Death the entity being off the grid was manageable.  Seems once the 1st Apocalypse happened, Death the entity needed to be paying attention.  And didn't go away.  

I keep coming back to this "reset" concept Jessica talked about.  Death seems to be the 'cosmic clean-up' being.  If OG Death caused the Black Plague (the last planetary-wide downsizing of people), then Death wasn't trapped anywhere, he just was free-range during that time.  And all Lucifer's little ceremony did was to bind Death to Lucifer's will.  

I DO think Death is playing a role in 13.23.  I just don't think it's to be to change meatsuits.  I think Death is going to tell Dean it's time to 'step up' and do XXXX.  "XXXX" being whatever the fool notion needs to be done so Death can do a partial reset without downsizing the planet.  Somehow the AU being open in "Exodus" seems like an ominous enough event to trigger Death making a move.  And Dean OWES Death.  He killed OG Death.  OG Death pulled his bacon (and the planet's) out of the fire at least 3 (?) times [gave the ring, reset the eclipse, put up Sam's wall].  And Dean owes Billie for getting them out of that secret prison.  Dean (or Sam) didn't have to pay for that little mostly-dead manuever as Cas stepped in.  But Dean wouldn't do something big just because they owe Billie.  He'll do it because it's the right thing to do.  I think Death (Billie) is going to be guiding Dean in his decision making, not handing him the scythe & ring.  Obviously YMMV. 

[gonzosgirrl]

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I thought Dean did technically say yes after Zach started killing Sam.  Zach asked him "So, is that a yes" . Dean was crying and said, "Yes....dammit. Yes"  Then Zach called down Michael and in between Dean said.."on a few conditions" and then Dean killed Zach. Sam and Dean left and Adam was trapped which is why I think he was possessed because he had already said yes.

I don't know if that means it's an open yes now, or if Dean would have to say yes again.

I think if it was a yes, Michael would've taken him, period. He told Zach he would say yes, but he never said it to Michael. I don't think that's something that could or should happen by proxy. 

ETA: It's like telling a pollster you're going to vote for their candidate. Until you mark that ballot it's meaningless. I don't think Michael would've given him takesie-backsies or negotiations if him telling Zachariah was binding. 

Edited April 23, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Myrelle]

5 hours ago, SueB said:

But Dean wouldn't do something big just because they owe Billie.  He'll do it because it's the right thing to do.  I think Death (Billie) is going to be guiding Dean in his decision making, not handing him the scythe & ring.  Obviously YMMV. 

He would if that "something owed" is still "the life of a Winchester" as I believe the original deal in the prison included. So whether she guides him into doing something or hands him the scythe and ring, I'm now thinking that the "stepping up" Jensen was talking about could include what he owes her and this actually being part and parcel of doing the right thing, in this instance.

Billie went out of her way to acknowledge Dean's presence when he came bursting in. Her "Hey Dean." was hardly necessary, for one; and her "See you again soon." was stated in a very familiar-type of way-almost as if they were old friends, but the look on Dean's face was the most telling thing there. It appeared to me as if he might even have known, specifically, what she was talking about there. And thinking back over some of the more recent episodes, to Cas assuring him in the last episode that they'd find Gabriel, he answered "We'd better"(and immediately after those two words, we got the zoom in on AnguishedDean). And in this one, when Sam said he would take care of Rowena if she went rogue, Dean again answered, "You'd better"-and then we were actually shown that Sam would kill her if push came to shove-which is what Dean would need to know if he was contemplating doing something game-changing, himself-and something that could leave his place on the board empty.

Maybe Billie AND Dean already know what it might have to come down to from that talk they had in Advanced Thanatology. And maybe that was the point of Jessica implying that Dean hadn't told Sam everything about that interaction. Certainly, he would not tell Sam if in order for Dean to be brought back then, she required payment of the original debt, OR a promise of it at her determined time and place. Yes, it would have taken place off-screen, but Sam's little talk with Chuck/God concerning taking on the mark, also took place off-screen, that's not unprecedented under Dabb.

So the question then becomes who would Billie need Dean to "become" in order to, yes, reset everything in both worlds if the AU spills over into our world.

IA that the being would need to possess great power, so in that vein of thinking, in my mind there are three possibilities now-the most powerful Archangel in Heaven, Death, or God, himself.

[ILoveReading]

8 hours ago, SueB said:

SO, how about if Rowena tries to send Luci to the cage and it cracks open the cage further?  Thus letting our Michael out.

Since Sam and Rowena talked about Lucifer's face, I figured there would eventually be an episode where they team up and try to take him out so this is very possible. 

Another theory is that since Heaven built the cage, if might be them powering the wards on it.  So if Heaven shuts down it might release our Michael back into the world.

Edited April 23, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Myrelle]

So one more thought, then I'm off to re-watch...

I'm trying to think how the cliffhanger might go. Much will depend on whether the big battle between the angels takes place here or in the AU. Do we know if AUMichael crosses over to our world this season for sure?

If so, and if they bring Jack and maybe even Mary and her lost children and the rebels to this side, with AUMichael and his vanguard following/chasing after them, then we have the cliffhanger of Dean taking on Michael(or some powerful being) in order to defeat them next season.

AND it would ensure Dean having to stay in that role until that threat to our world is diffused.

But would they carry the battle into S14 or end it in the finale. I can't see them ending it in the finale w/o Dean's new incarnation powered up enough to help with that, in some way...

[catrox14]

5 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

ETA: It's like telling a pollster you're going to vote for their candidate. Until you mark that ballot it's meaningless. I don't think Michael would've given him takesie-backsies or negotiations if him telling Zachariah was binding. 

To me Dean either never intended to say yes and it was a ruse, which was actually my head canon for, well, ever. And Dean knew that saying yes would get Zach as close to him as possible so he could him and he knew it would break that deal. 

Or it was Dean's intention to say yes and he changed his mind at the last minute and once he killed Zach that broke their agreement and thus reneging was the last known choice Dean made so it didn't stand. Adam, on the other hand, I don't think ever reneged verbally so he was taken .

Now I also had the notion for a long time that the Beautiful Room was the only place Michael could do a possession. Why did everything have to happen in that room? Why did the negotiations take place there? I've often thought that if Dean and Adam had both been in that room, Michael would have still taken Dean and not Adam.  But you know, I think that's a crap episode and none of makes sense unless I think of it as Dean having been playing Zach all along so he could kill him.  But that's my headcanon.

And for me the question still remains if one thinks Dean said yes, does the yes still stand should Michael be a thing for Dean?

[catrox14]

11 hours ago, ahrtee said:

The Death" (ie, the Horseman) was locked away for millennia until Luci raised him in s. 5.  So who was in charge for all that time?  Ditto War, Famine and Pestilence.  *None* of the Horsemen are currently functional (alive or not), and all the things they're supposedly in charge of seem to be ticking along merrily without their oversight.  (There weren't any repercussions for the boys killing or disabling them, either...)

Death wasn't dead though. So it seems to me still had the power over life and death unless you're suggesting someone else did during that time, and I don't recollect that being the case. Reapers do not have power over life and death. They are merely agents to take the designated souls to their resting places. If the souls don't want to go the reapers can't make them go, hence ghosts. Reapers don't kill people.

IIRC, the whole point of Lucifer binding Death was so he could try to make him kill whoever he wanted. That's why Death was so pissed and why he opted to give Dean his ring. He wanted Lucifer back in the cage and to be unbound. 

10 hours ago, SueB said:

Well she has the ring and the Horseman all have rings.  So now she's a Horseman too.   I don't like it as an office versus a person either. 

But the rings don't make them Horseman though. And if I'm supernitpicky, that ring looks nothing like Death's original ring.

Whilst I appreciate your attempts to make OG Death not possible now, I just disagree that it's because they change

10 hours ago, SueB said:

.  If things were ho-hum for centuries then Death the entity being off the grid was manageable.  Seems once the 1st Apocalypse happened, Death the entity needed to be paying attention.  And didn't go away.  

I don't understand this notion that Death was off the grid. He was locked away. It was never said AFAIR that he had no power during that time. I mean maybe I've forgotten something big here.

[gonzosgirrl]

56 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And for me the question still remains if one thinks Dean said yes, does the yes still stand should Michael be a thing for Dean?

Don't you think if the yes was valid (then) and remained (or remains) valid, Michael would've taken him at Stull? I would take it as total retcon if they tried that - regardless of Dean's intentions when he told Zachariah he'd say yes. If it was valid, Michael could've taken him at any time between 518 and 522, including at the showdown itself. Dean's immediate goal was to get him to stop torturing Sam and Adam, and IMO, his immediate move to then start adding caveats, and winking at Sam, were all meant to convey that he didn't intend to go through with it.

Edited April 23, 2018 by gonzosgirrl
clarity

[ahrtee]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Death wasn't dead though. So it seems to me still had the power over life and death unless you're suggesting someone else did during that time, and I don't recollect that being the case. Reapers do not have power over life and death. They are merely agents to take the designated souls to their resting places. If the souls don't want to go the reapers can't make them go, hence ghosts. Reapers don't kill people.

IIRC, the whole point of Lucifer binding Death was so he could try to make him kill whoever he wanted. That's why Death was so pissed and why he opted to give Dean his ring. He wanted Lucifer back in the cage and to be unbound. 

I specifically said that reapers just work from a list and don't have the power over who's on that list.  The rest of my post gave a *possible* explanation of how things might work.  IA Death has the power to overrule anyone else about life and death.  It still doesn't mean he's the only one who makes the decisions.  And since the writers etc. make things up as they go along to suit what they want to show, I don't think we'll ever get a definitive answer (at least, one that won't change the next time they need it to be something else.)  :)

What I find interesting is why Death being a Horseman should make him more important than anyone else, because nobody gave a flying fig when the other horsemen were de-powered (or killed--we never did find out what happened to Famine when Sam exploded him from the inside out, did we?)  Nobody expected any great repercussions for the boys (or even the world.)  (BTW, who's got their rings now? Did Dean bury them all in various places around Bobby's yard?)

So Death might be equal to Chuck just because of the Life/Death, yin/yang thing, but I don't think (in SPN-world, at least), being a Horseman gives him any extra power.  JMO.

[gonzosgirrl]

56 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Now I also had the notion for a long time that the Beautiful Room was the only place Michael could do a possession. Why did everything have to happen in that room?

Hmmm, do you think that's why we are getting a cathedral-like setting (per the lighting guy's pics) with stained-glass archangels and candles, etc., in the finale. A 2018 version of the Beautiful Room?

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Now I also had the notion for a long time that the Beautiful Room was the only place Michael could do a possession. Why did everything have to happen in that room? Why did the negotiations take place there? I've often thought that if Dean and Adam had both been in that room, Michael would have still taken Dean and not Adam.  But you know, I think that's a crap episode and none of makes sense unless I think of it as Dean having been playing Zach all along so he could kill him.  But that's my headcanon.

And for me the question still remains if one thinks Dean said yes, does the yes still stand should Michael be a thing for Dean?

MIchael possessed John in that cabin in the middle of nowhere.  I think the "beautiful room" was built by Zach specifically to keep Dean and/or Adam in and control where they went and who they spoke to (thus Dean's cell only worked when they wanted it to.)  It was a holding cell to make sure the vessel would be where they wanted when they wanted, and he added all the little extras (like hamburgers and the offer of MaryAnn) to keep them happy while waiting.  The decor seemed to be Zach's preference.  

I'm not sure about Dean's "yes."  On one hand, way back when they did say that a vessel has a direct line to "his" angel and so could speak to him directly, so Michael should have heard Dean's answer.  OTOH, Dean's "yes" was said to Zach, and later (in Swap Meat, eg) the demon said they had to call Lucifer in so the kid in Sam's meatsuit could say yes to him directly.  I think they can make a case that Dean has to tell Michael directly (either face-to-face or mind-to-mind conversation) and whatever he said to anyone else doesn't count (assuming the writers even remember season 5!)

[ILoveReading]

Interview with Matt Cohen.  90% is General Hospital related.  ( I don't watch so there may be spoilers there for GH)

https://www.tvinsider.com/683719/general-hospital-matt-cohen-griffin-ava-supernatural/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Here is the bit related to SPN

Quote

I'd be remiss if I didn't ask about Supernatural. If timing worked out, would you do the show again? 

You can write this in bold-faced, capital letters with exclamation marks on the top to bottom and both sides: Before the end of Supernatural, John Winchester, my version of John Winchester, or my version of Michael, will be back on that show. I have not gotten a call from the writers, directors, producers, anybody from them, but I assure you by the end of time, by the end of the run of Supernatural, Matt Cohen will be back on there.

Supernatural (which was just renewed for season 14) is going to run forever, so I think there's a good chance...

I owe it to the fans! It's been so fun to play with those fans and that sci-fi world. I'm definitely going back there. The writers may not know it yet, but Matt Cohen does and enough nagging gets anything done in Hollywood.

This kind of stood out to me that he says will be back and names Michael specifically.  Usually he just says, sure I'll be back at some point.

We know he missed NashCon for professional reasons, it could have been General Hospital though.

Edited April 23, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Myrelle]

2 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

And for me the question still remains if one thinks Dean said yes, does the yes still stand should Michael be a thing for Dean?

I think Dean had to then-and still has to-say it to him face-to-face, so the "yes" should be a necessity this season if we're getting Dean!Michael. JMO.

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Interview with Matt Cohen.

Do you know when this interview happened? Or a link possibly?

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, Myrelle said:

I think Dean had to then-and still has to-say it to him face-to-face, so the "yes" should be a necessity this season if we're getting Dean!Michael. JMO.

That was Catrox14 you quoted.  IA that Dean would have to say yes directly to Michael, both then and now.  

[ILoveReading]

6 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I think Dean had to then-and still has to-say it to him face-to-face, so the "yes" should be a necessity this season if we're getting Dean!Michael. JMO.

Do you know when this interview happened? Or a link possibly?

https://www.tvinsider.com/683719/general-hospital-matt-cohen-griffin-ava-supernatural/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Im not sure when the interview took place.

Edited April 23, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Myrelle]

1 minute ago, ahrtee said:

That was Catrox14 you quoted.  IA that Dean would have to say yes directly to Michael, both then and now.  

Oops! So sorry about that...

[companionenvy]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

And for me the question still remains if one thinks Dean said yes, does the yes still stand should Michael be a thing for Dean?

That's a really good question, and given the show's looseness with canon, it is possible. But I don't think that's the case for two reasons: one, I agree with others that Dean saying he is going to say yes doesn't count, and he never actually said the words to Michael, and also, if consent once given could never be revoked, the whole Gadreel possession storyline doesn't make sense, since Sam kicking him out in a fit of anger wouldn't have been a possibility. Even if we assume Gadreel was lying about that, too, and that Dean the Michael Sword, however improbably, didn't know enough about possession by then to realize it,  if the "yes" were an open invitation, there's no way Lucifer wouldn't have at some point used that as leverage against Cas and/or Sam, as both of them have now agreed to possession by him.

[Myrelle]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

https://www.tvinsider.com/683719/general-hospital-matt-cohen-griffin-ava-supernatural/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

The article was just posted 2 hours ago, so the interview was probably pretty recent and he  says

 

10 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I have not gotten a call from the writers, directors, producers, anybody from them,

No reason for him to say that other than it being the truth, BUT... I am now REALLY! wondering about JDM making an appearance this season after his most recent proclamation that he would definitely and w/o a doubt be back on the show before it ended.

[SueB]

Matt’s interview:

1 - Matt is no dummy.  He wouldn’t spoil anything. He wants to keep working in the business.  And who you know is everything. If he pissed off the producers, he’d be risking his livelihood.  

2 - “1” means he hasn’t been contacted.  Or if he’s been contacted then he’s lying on their behalf - because they TOLD him to.  Makes me think ‘foiler’.  

3 - I believe Matt is right about nagging.  He’ll find a way eventually to be back on the show.  He’s see Rob & Rich manage it.  He’s got multiple ways in.  

Bottom line: This makes me doubt Michael more than confirm. Which could be their purpose.  

Just because I’m paranoid doesn’t mean people aren’t out to get me.  

[Castiels Cat]

3 hours ago, Myrelle said:

The article was just posted 2 hours ago, so the interview was probably pretty recent and he  says

 

No reason for him to say that other than it being the truth, BUT... I am now REALLY! wondering about JDM making an appearance this season after his most recent proclamation that he would definitely and w/o a doubt be back on the show before it ended.

Wouldn't his agent get the call?

[Castiels Cat]

4 hours ago, ahrtee said:

MIchael possessed John in that cabin in the middle of nowhere.  I think the "beautiful room" was built by Zach specifically to keep Dean and/or Adam in and control where they went and who they spoke to (thus Dean's cell only worked when they wanted it to.)  It was a holding cell to make sure the vessel would be where they wanted when they wanted, and he added all the little extras (like hamburgers and the offer of MaryAnn) to keep them happy while waiting.  The decor seemed to be Zach's preference.  

I'm not sure about Dean's "yes."  On one hand, way back when they did say that a vessel has a direct line to "his" angel and so could speak to him directly, so Michael should have heard Dean's answer.  OTOH, Dean's "yes" was said to Zach, and later (in Swap Meat, eg) the demon said they had to call Lucifer in so the kid in Sam's meatsuit could say yes to him directly.  I think they can make a case that Dean has to tell Michael directly (either face-to-face or mind-to-mind conversation) and whatever he said to anyone else doesn't count (assuming the writers even remember season 5!)

Well we know that the cage is damaged from the Darkness being released which allowed Lucifer to contact Sam with visions.  Michael could also contact Dean I suppose.  Or Dean and Rowena could take a trip.

I have become obsessed with this idea of Dean slowly dying from that poisoned bullet wound he received in the  AU Apocalypse as well as his growing relationship with Billie.  It is obvious she has realized that she needs Dean.  Dean is necessary to the wellbeing of the world.  

So... I half expect Billie to come for Dean as he is closing in on death except she flat out tells him that she is taking him to Michael because the universe needs him and only a fully powered archangel can save him.  The way the writing is going I  expect them to out Dean as the BDH of this story  Having Chuck be God and having God tell Dean that he changed the story in season 5 by going to Stull pretty much makes Dean the pivotal person that stopped the Apocalypse because without Dean Sam would not have jumped in the pit.  Having God answer only Dean's prayer in season 11, having God tell Dean that he was the firewall, having God let Deanbdecide how to end the story with Amara and leaving Dean in charge of the universe...  Dean is the big damn hero.  

And in Advanced Thanotology we saw rhat Billie totally gets it.  So I tbink we might get Billie telling Dean that he is the hero of this story and that he doesn't get to die because then the universe will die with him.   This is about as big as it gets.  

This I think is the set-up now.  Dean Winchester is dying and so is heaven and the world as we know it is going to Help in a hand cart.

Thanks dear Any Cat for this insight about that poisoned bullet. 
Wow.
The universe needs Dean and heaven needs an archangel with all of his grace and a sense of duty.... Michael.
They pretty much spelled that one out this last episode.  

And no... just no... loser self absorbed porn loving Gabriel will not cut it. He is a feint.  The proverbial red herring.  Just like AU Michael is the Macguffin. And Lucifer is a loser baby...

Michael and Dean both have have roles and without them the universe starts to unravel.

Look at what happened when Dean was in Purgatory.
Sam stops hunting. Crowkey goes crazy.

Dean stops hunting in 6. Crowley and Cas go crazy. Sam’s soulless.

Michael disappears and Angels start killing each other. The constant in the angelic storyline is that they have no fcking clue what they are doing.once Michael is no longer in the picture 

stiff. Otherworldly … above it all. That is Michael.  And that is my takeaway from those photos. 

If the are using  JDM instead of MC as Michael they are doing a disservice to MC.

Edited April 23, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[DeeDee79]

4 hours ago, ahrtee said:

(assuming the writers even remember season 5!)

Considering that Gabriel supposedly faked his death after we saw the burnt wings ( with a few feathers flying around ) I'm thinking no on this.

[Castiels Cat]

2 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Considering that Gabriel supposedly faked his death after we saw the burnt wings ( with a few feathers flying around ) I'm thinking no on this.

Paint!

[catrox14]

5 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Hmmm, do you think that's why we are getting a cathedral-like setting (per the lighting guy's pics) with stained-glass archangels and candles, etc., in the finale. A 2018 version of the Beautiful Room?

That could be. And that might also explain  why Michel couldn't take Dean at Stull.

[Castiels Cat]

9 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Since Sam and Rowena talked about Lucifer's face, I figured there would eventually be an episode where they team up and try to take him out so this is very possible. 

Another theory is that since Heaven built the cage, if might be them powering the wards on it.  So if Heaven shuts down it might release our Michael back into the world.

Ohh... good theory!

[DeeDee79]

5 hours ago, ahrtee said:

What I find interesting is why Death being a Horseman should make him more important than anyone else, because nobody gave a flying fig when the other horsemen were de-powered (or killed--we never did find out what happened to Famine when Sam exploded him from the inside out, did we?)  Nobody expected any great repercussions for the boys (or even the world.) 

These are very good questions. Brady ( I think ) said that War and Famine were pretty useless after their rings were taken but Pestilence didn't seem too damaged after Cas cut his off. When Death gave Dean his ring he seemed fine. Hmm...maybe that does mean that he's more powerful than the other horsemen. Maybe the extra power is what makes him more important than the other 3?

Quote

(BTW, who's got their rings now? Did Dean bury them all in various places around Bobby's yard?)

Dean gave Death his ring back at some point but this makes me curious. If they were joined to create the cage would they have stayed in the ground where the opening to the cage was formed? If so, how did Dean get Death's ring back? My head hurts.

[Castiels Cat]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That could be. And that might also explain  why Michel couldn't take Dean at Stull.

Err. He possessed John in a field. I think the isdue was consent. Dean had made his choice so Michael moved on to Adam.  Or rather Kripke didn't want Dean to steal Sam's light... he finally realized he had written his hero as the proverbial antichrist and the brother as the Messiah so he returned the brother to the sidekick role, created a faux Antichrist... and voila!  Problem solved!

This and the kitchen sink approach to writing is why I do not think Kripke was very good.

He had excellent writers on staff and Kim manners.

[Castiels Cat]

10 hours ago, Myrelle said:

He would if that "something owed" is still "the life of a Winchester" as I believe the original deal in the prison included. So whether she guides him into doing something or hands him the scythe and ring, I'm now thinking that the "stepping up" Jensen was talking about could include what he owes her and this actually being part and parcel of doing the right thing, in this instance.

Billie went out of her way to acknowledge Dean's presence when he came bursting in. Her "Hey Dean." was hardly necessary, for one; and her "See you again soon." was stated in a very familiar-type of way-almost as if they were old friends, but the look on Dean's face was the most telling thing there. It appeared to me as if he might even have known, specifically, what she was talking about there. And thinking back over some of the more recent episodes, to Cas assuring him in the last episode that they'd find Gabriel, he answered "We'd better"(and immediately after those two words, we got the zoom in on AnguishedDean). And in this one, when Sam said he would take care of Rowena if she went rogue, Dean again answered, "You'd better"-and then we were actually shown that Sam would kill her if push came to shove-which is what Dean would need to know if he was contemplating doing something game-changing, himself-and something that could leave his place on the board empty.

Maybe Billie AND Dean already know what it might have to come down to from that talk they had in Advanced Thanatology. And maybe that was the point of Jessica implying that Dean hadn't told Sam everything about that interaction. Certainly, he would not tell Sam if in order for Dean to be brought back then, she required payment of the original debt, OR a promise of it at her determined time and place. Yes, it would have taken place off-screen, but Sam's little talk with Chuck/God concerning taking on the mark, also took place off-screen, that's not unprecedented under Dabb.

So the question then becomes who would Billie need Dean to "become" in order to, yes, reset everything in both worlds if the AU spills over into our world.

IA that the being would need to possess great power, so in that vein of thinking, in my mind there are three possibilities now-the most powerful Archangel in Heaven, Death, or God, himself.

Interesting. They are inordinately fond of flashbacks these days. That would be cheating in my opinion though.  

I tbink my friend hit it on the nail when she said that Dean is dying of rhat bullet wound slowly.  My guess is that Billie will not let it happen beca use the universe needs Dean and Billie knows it now.

So she may take him to someone rhat can heal him which leads to his transformation.  You know my vote is Dean!Michael.

Nice spec.

[Castiels Cat]

16 hours ago, SueB said:

Well she has the ring and the Horseman all have rings.  So now she's a Horseman too.   I don't like it as an office versus a person either.  Death the experience (versus the entity) seems a constant.  It happens whether or not Death the entity is around.  Death the entity seems to be necessary for events that are beyond the natural order (like raising the dead, taking out Chicago, etc...).  In my little mental construct, to assume the role of Death the entity, you get powered up and new gear.  Which means there is some supernatural phenmomenon going on.  Perhaps some fail-safe left by God to ensure Death the entity was able to operate when needed.  If things were ho-hum for centuries then Death the entity being off the grid was manageable.  Seems once the 1st Apocalypse happened, Death the entity needed to be paying attention.  And didn't go away.  

I keep coming back to this "reset" concept Jessica talked about.  Death seems to be the 'cosmic clean-up' being.  If OG Death caused the Black Plague (the last planetary-wide downsizing of people), then Death wasn't trapped anywhere, he just was free-range during that time.  And all Lucifer's little ceremony did was to bind Death to Lucifer's will.  

I DO think Death is playing a role in 13.23.  I just don't think it's to be to change meatsuits.  I think Death is going to tell Dean it's time to 'step up' and do XXXX.  "XXXX" being whatever the fool notion needs to be done so Death can do a partial reset without downsizing the planet.  Somehow the AU being open in "Exodus" seems like an ominous enough event to trigger Death making a move.  And Dean OWES Death.  He killed OG Death.  OG Death pulled his bacon (and the planet's) out of the fire at least 3 (?) times [gave the ring, reset the eclipse, put up Sam's wall].  And Dean owes Billie for getting them out of that secret prison.  Dean (or Sam) didn't have to pay for that little mostly-dead manuever as Cas stepped in.  But Dean wouldn't do something big just because they owe Billie.  He'll do it because it's the right thing to do.  I think Death (Billie) is going to be guiding Dean in his decision making, not handing him the scythe & ring.  Obviously YMMV. 

I posted something elsewhere...

Short version... in our universe... everything went off the rails when the Apocalypse did not happen because Chuck let Dean change the story by going to Stull which lead to Michael going to the Cage.

Everything had been off since.  Every year r here has been another near Apocalypse as if the universe is trying to get back to where it should be.  Every year Dean and Sam have to clean things up again.

Chuck answers Dean again. Chuck let's Dean decide the ending of the story again.  Dean saves world again.  But this time Dean knows rhat Chuck is God and God is a schlub and God has lect him in charge basically and he and his team are all the world has and it sucks.

Advanced Thanotology.  So important in so many ways.  Not only a crash course in Dean's fatal flaw and,basic m.o.  but also Billie tells us that Dean is important.  Dean is the BDH.  The Universe needs him.  Billie don't reap him.  She knows that he cannot die.

My guess is the reset will involve saving him by bringing him to Michael who can heal him or resurrect him.  Dean and Michael can negotiate some quid pro quo arrangement as equals.  Dean is an equal at rhis point.

Billie may tell them both that the Apocalypse has to happen on some scale here because everything is out of balance.

At least now Dean can mediate it so that the world can go on rather than be paradise.  Lucifer has to go back to the Cage or die.  Michael needs to fix heaven.  Bottom line... everything has been out of whack since the Apocalypse did not happen.  That was on Dean as leader of TFW as the one who said NO to Michael and as rhe one who rewrote Chuck's story, and he needs to fix it.

So Apocalypse Now then reboot.

[Castiels Cat]

On 4/21/2018 at 12:08 PM, ILoveReading said:

I remember this.  Plus, in the sides they referred to Dean by a different name.  So reading them, we'd see someone named Guy speaking the words and everyone was like "I bet Guy is Dean."

I think Michael would be a bold choice to both those spoiled and unspoiled because it would require Dean to say yes to possession.   That would be something completely unexpected for his character given how big a champion he is of Free Will

I think they have set It up as a quid quo pro.  Dean is not your average human. He will make a deal.  Meaning they will timeshare is my guess and he may have a say in policy.

As I have said before, I think they have done a brilliant job of setting it up.  Even moreso than I originally thought...

I am loving the end of the season and Jensen's performance.

[Castiels Cat]

On 4/21/2018 at 1:44 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

I guess at least part of the mystery of who/what Jensen is hinges on how much stock you put in the actors/PTB interpretation of time. A long time, years, forever. In my experience most of the people involved in making the show(s) don't recall the same minute (or not so minute) details of events/timelines/specific dialogues, that the dedicated fans do. Sidebar: I went to a con for a different fandom with a panel that some fans had literally waited years for, an opportunity to have the two leads/OTP of the series together. More than one fan (including me) asked questions related to truly iconic moments in the series, and we may as well have been asking them to explain the theory of relativity. They just didn't recall things with the same intensity that we did. It was disappointing, to say the least. But I digress....  All that is to say I don't put all my stock in any of their references to the timeline. That said...

I very much think it could be Death. A good portion of fans have been waiting for repercussions for his death. Death, as a character had a pretty unique relationship with Dean and in my mind, he was both shocked and maybe a little hurt (LOL) that Dean actually turned on him. I think the possibility that he wasn't killed, so much as scattered to the cosmic wind, isn't so far-fetched. He wasn't just any old entity, he was a Horseman. It could be retconned that while Billie is Death, head of the reapers, she is not Death, the Horseman. So it took a couple years for him to reintegrate, and now he needs a vessel. Using the guy who proved to be his nemesis is the kind of poetic justice I think he would enjoy. Death said he could/would reap God, so surely an archangel wouldn't be problem for him (as long as he doesn't hand him his scythe, lol). It would take some thoughtful writing to get to Dean agreeing to become him/his vessel in order to defeat AU!Michael, but I can imagine it. Maybe Death tricks him, promises it will only be for as long as it takes to end Michael, and then reneges, taking off with Dean's body as the credits roll on 13x23.

ETA: who/whatever it is, I fully believe it's something Dean consents to as opposed to something that happens to him, or another being that happens to look like Jensen while real!Dean is still with us, solely based on Jensen's words that Dean 'steps up'.

Okay.  You finally made me see how this might be possible... 

Hmmm.  Still think the set-up has too many anvils and plot points leading to Dean!Michael.

[Castiels Cat]

On 4/22/2018 at 10:32 PM, Casseiopeia said:

Zack was Michaels fixer.  He didn't care how Zacharia did it as long as he got Dean to say yes.  Torture Adam, kill him he didn't care what his hatchet man did. Michael was the one who orchestrated the Apocalypse or the planetary enema.  Michael was senior management. He let Lilith break the seals, sent Castiel to Bible Camp in order for Ruby to complete her task.  The whole point of the 5 season arc was to let Lucifer out in order for Michael to kill him.  Michael didn't care how many people died in the process.  Dean was right to say no.  Adam was stupid to say yes.  

 

I guess you have never worked in an organization big enough in which upper management had no idea what horrors some middle managers did to their employees. I have seen this.   I guarantee the big bosses who were nice people and good bosses did not know they had "Zachariahs" working for them because those managers played nice to their bosses and were insufferable maniacs to their employees.

YSW. Que sera sera.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, AyeMada said:

General Hospital News: Matt Cohen Reveals Supernatural Return

https://www.soapoperaspy.com/2018/general-hospital-news-matt-cohen-reveals-supernatural-return/

Mmmmm.... doesn't sound like a no to me.  Sounds very fan waving spoiler.

My understanding of the business is that no one on the show would  call Matt directly.  The fasting person would call Matt's agent...

Or whatever... there are people rhat have jobs that do this stuff and they are not the director, writers, or set people.

So he's talking a lot without saying anything.

He did say he would definitey be back as John/Michael which is more than he has ever said before.  

[Casseiopeia]

3 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

I guess you have never worked in an organization big enough in which upper management had no idea what horrors some middle managers did to their employees. I have seen this.   I guarantee the big bosses who were nice people and good bosses did not know they had "Zachariahs" working for them because those managers played nice to their bosses and were insufferable maniacs to their employees.

YSW. Que sera sera.

I suppose but it was made clear that Zacharia had not gone rogue.  He had been fired and rehired when his "boss" came up with the Adam angle.  Even Gabriel knew what the end game was.

[Wynne88]

Michael has supposedly gone crazy in the cage, from my vague memories of what Lucifer said.  Is he sane enough to possess someone and still function?  Or is there an off-the-rails Archangel hanging around in the cage with power but no sense?

[bearcatfan]

Speculation, if part of the reason Michael went crazy in the cage was because he was locked in there with Lucifer, does that mean that the nearly 3 years he’s been in the cage by himself* has allowed him to heal somewhat? I can’t blame Michael there. I think I’d go a bit crazy if I was trapped with Lucifer too!

*I’m excluding Adam because I don’t believe he would be enough to drive anyone crazy. 

[Castiels Cat]

10 hours ago, bearcatfan said:

Speculation, if part of the reason Michael went crazy in the cage was because he was locked in there with Lucifer, does that mean that the nearly 3 years he’s been in the cage by himself* has allowed him to heal somewhat? I can’t blame Michael there. I think I’d go a bit crazy if I was trapped with Lucifer too!

*I’m excluding Adam because I don’t believe he would be enough to drive anyone crazy. 

Adam is in heaven.  Just his body was there. Tha this my head canon.

Not that I cares about him at all.  He did not cares about Sam or Dean at all

10 hours ago, Wynne88 said:

Michael has supposedly gone crazy in the cage, from my vague memories of what Lucifer said.  Is he sane enough to possess someone and still function?  Or is there an off-the-rails Archangel hanging around in the cage with power but no sense?

If we learned anything at all this season eason about Lucifer it is that he lies. 

22 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

I suppose but it was made clear that Zacharia had not gone rogue.  He had been fired and rehired when his "boss" came up with the Adam angle.  Even Gabriel knew what the end game was.

Dean say yes was the orders.

many ways to get this done.

Edited April 25, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[catrox14]

9 hours ago, bearcatfan said:

Speculation, if part of the reason Michael went crazy in the cage was because he was locked in there with Lucifer, does that mean that the nearly 3 years he’s been in the cage by himself* has allowed him to heal somewhat? I can’t blame Michael there. I think I’d go a bit crazy if I was trapped with Lucifer too!

Here's the thing that bugs me. There is no evidence that Michael actually went crazy other than LUCIFER's word.  Sure, Chuck said Michael was in no shape for the fight right then which maybe Chuck was lying or maybe he was trying to protect him for the future. Maybe Michael was physically weak for some reason and didn't really go crazy.

Lucifer had every reason to make sure Michael stayed in the Cage so why not concoct a story about Michael? Just like he's claiming that Chuck spun tales about Lucifer.

Michael has not been shown on screen since s5. IMO, there was never any good reason to believe Lucifer, who lies all the time. And Chuck is deceitful too in many ways. I've never believed the story that Michael went nuts.

[SueB]

56 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Here's the thing that bugs me. There is no evidence that Michael actually went crazy other than LUCIFER's word.  Sure, Chuck said Michael was in no shape for the fight right then which maybe Chuck was lying or maybe he was trying to protect him for the future. Maybe Michael was physically weak for some reason and didn't really go crazy.

Lucifer had every reason to make sure Michael stayed in the Cage so why not concoct a story about Michael? Just like he's claiming that Chuck spun tales about Lucifer.

Michael has not been shown on screen since s5. IMO, there was never any good reason to believe Lucifer, who lies all the time. And Chuck is deceitful too in many ways. I've never believed the story that Michael went nuts.

Whether or not he went nuts, I think 3 years in solitary without Lucifer interacting with him would provide the basis for any number of directions to go.  I'd personally like it if Adam still had to be there (versus being in Heaven), they would have let him take care of Adam and thus reset his mind to his proper responsibilities.  That would be in keeping with the Winchester tradition of exposure to a Winchester causes redemption.  

Has anyone stalked Jake Able to see what he's up to???

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Here's the thing that bugs me. There is no evidence that Michael actually went crazy other than LUCIFER's word.  Sure, Chuck said Michael was in no shape for the fight right then which maybe Chuck was lying or maybe he was trying to protect him for the future. Maybe Michael was physically weak for some reason and didn't really go crazy.

Lucifer had every reason to make sure Michael stayed in the Cage so why not concoct a story about Michael? Just like he's claiming that Chuck spun tales about Lucifer.

Michael has not been shown on screen since s5. IMO, there was never any good reason to believe Lucifer, who lies all the time. And Chuck is deceitful too in many ways. I've never believed the story that Michael went nuts.

Both Lucifer and Chuck are unreliable narrators.  Both have lied at times.  

I agree.

We know very little about Michael's current state or Michael's personality.  We know a bit about his former goals from what he told Dean.  He seemed to be following Dad's plan.  

[Castiels Cat]

11 minutes ago, SueB said:

Whether or not he went nuts, I think 3 years in solitary without Lucifer interacting with him would provide the basis for any number of directions to go.  I'd personally like it if Adam still had to be there (versus being in Heaven), they would have let him take care of Adam and thus reset his mind to his proper responsibilities.  That would be in keeping with the Winchester tradition of exposure to a Winchester causes redemption.  

Has anyone stalked Jake Able to see what he's up to???

We have seen exposure to Dean cause redemption a lot... Cas Benny, Crowley.... These are all characters that became better after close relationships with Dean. 

Not sure Sam has the track record yet...  Rowena is a far more complicated case as she is on record as stating that her experiences with Chuck and Amara started her thinking. I cannot think of another example.  

Not a fan of Adam.  The actor made little impression on me and the character did not have Winchester integrity.  I hope he is in heaven so they don't waste ink on him.

[gonzosgirrl]

It would be easy enough to ret-con a healthy, but pissed off at being left in the cage Michael. Sure Lucifer said he was crazy, and Chuck said it would take too much to remake him for the Amara fight. But Lucifer is a douchebag and Chuck also said (or didn't disagree) Gabriel was dead and gone and we know how that worked out. Canon is literally meaningless anymore.