Spoilers With Speculation

[ILoveReading]

7 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

And everyone reading those sides, immediately caught on to that and went "oooh, it`s gonna be an angel". For a lot of people the cat was out of the bag before the episode aired. But for general audiences? It was probably a big and bold surprise to bring in angels.    

I remember this.  Plus, in the sides they referred to Dean by a different name.  So reading them, we'd see someone named Guy speaking the words and everyone was like "I bet Guy is Dean."

I think Michael would be a bold choice to both those spoiled and unspoiled because it would require Dean to say yes to possession.   That would be something completely unexpected for his character given how big a champion he is of Free Will

[SueB]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

That could also bring  back Raphael. The problem is how do they get past the Empty Keeper? He supposedly sent back Cas because he annoyed him. Maybe the  Empty Keeper is over run by resurrected demon as and angels. Or swerve. Rowena Fi ds out about the Empty, she kills the Empty Keeper trying to find Crowley and she wakes up all the demons. As Jack wakes up the Angels?

Maybe some of the souls start falling out of Heaven before Jack figures out how to resurrect the angels.  So we get a bunch of dead characters back in ghost form, including  John.

So we get Apocalypse 2.5.

Another swerve, if we get Apocalypse 2.5 then maybe we end up with Michael Dean and Lucifer Sam but they don't fight and instead have to work together to kill AW Michael before he brings his army of angels.

I'd be really keen to see this.  So long as the Angels remembered their death -- why they died and where they made mistakes.  There were a LOT of assholes there.  And I'd want Dean to go back and shank Zach's face again, just because.  

[ILoveReading]

I keep coming back to Jensen's words. 

I think if I apply the principle of Occam's Razor Michael or Death make the most sense.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, SueB said:

I believe this is from the tumblr of http://gaywitchtwins.tumblr.com/ (I had to chase thru multiple Tumblr posts to find what I think is the original poster ...  warning, op is listed as "anti-destiel" for those of the destiel fandom).

First... He has WINGS!  Then... well, of course he has wings... he can teleport.

I LOVE that he is protective of Mary.  I just love this.  I know many are not Mary fans, but Jack lost a mother and Mary has thus far failed to find her footing as a mother to Sam and Dean.  I'm okay with the Jack/Mary relationship being maternal.  

Ugh no. Fine for Jack to protect Mary. I think he would protect Dean, Cas, and Sam the same way just sayin. But if Mary becomes an attentive mother to Jack and not her boys, she is dead to me.

[DeeDee79]

36 minutes ago, SueB said:

I believe this is from the tumblr of http://gaywitchtwins.tumblr.com/ (I had to chase thru multiple Tumblr posts to find what I think is the original poster ...  warning, op is listed as "anti-destiel" for those of the destiel fandom).

Thanks for providing the link but in addition to being "anti-Destiel" the poster also calls himself a "bitter Sam stan" and critical of all things fandom. Yikes.

[SueB]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Ugh no. Fine for Jack to protect Mary. I think he would protect Dean, Cas, and Sam the same way just sayin. But if Mary becomes an attentive mother to Jack and not her boys, she is dead to me.

Not trying to poke the bear, but wasn't she past that point with you already?  I know she is for many (not me, but for many).  

I guess I buy it because Jack still needs guidance and Sam and Dean do not.  Further, Mary is literally younger than the boys and less experienced.  She can offer them love and support but one of the biggest jobs (and yes joys) of parenting is teaching them, helping them to see the world.  I don't even know if she would have to explain that to Sam & Dean.  If Jack does not go darkside, then they will likely see Mary mentoring him.  And Jack clinging to her like a mother figure?  Normal too.  He sees Team Free Will as his family.  And she's apprently "Mom".  And while he loves his natural mother, he's still open to Mary's guidance. Plus she'll naturally take on a protective/teaching roll for the young man who came to rescue her. Add his cinnamon roll earnestness (which he gets from Cas -- I'm sticking with that BTW, that somehow Castiel's earnestness influenced Jack in the womb), and boom.  It's a natural match.       

Under the TMI note: When my children both got married last year (within 6 weeks, it was a busy year), my daughter started to get a little jealous of time spent with my daughter-in-law.  Color me shocked.  I recognized what was influencing that (combo of many things) and took steps to rectify. 
So I GET Sam & Dean still need Mary and would be bit resentful if she mama'd Jack.  That's ALSO reasonable.  But unless Mary moves into the bunker and is partnering full time (unlikely), this is somethng that they will likely see but not stop.  And honestly, having a powerful entity devoted to Mary and around to protect her?  That would ease the brother's heart some.  

Just now, DeeDee79 said:

Thanks for providing the link but in addition to being "anti-Destiel" the poster also calls himself a "bitter Sam stan" and critical of all things fandom. Yikes.

I'll update.  You know I don't "anti" so I confirmed the link and then vamoosed (ah... look... a pun!).  Get it? va-moosed?  I'll show myself out. 

[ILoveReading]

Im leaning more toward Michael.

[gonzosgirrl]

I guess at least part of the mystery of who/what Jensen is hinges on how much stock you put in the actors/PTB interpretation of time. A long time, years, forever. In my experience most of the people involved in making the show(s) don't recall the same minute (or not so minute) details of events/timelines/specific dialogues, that the dedicated fans do. Sidebar: I went to a con for a different fandom with a panel that some fans had literally waited years for, an opportunity to have the two leads/OTP of the series together. More than one fan (including me) asked questions related to truly iconic moments in the series, and we may as well have been asking them to explain the theory of relativity. They just didn't recall things with the same intensity that we did. It was disappointing, to say the least. But I digress....  All that is to say I don't put all my stock in any of their references to the timeline. That said...

I very much think it could be Death. A good portion of fans have been waiting for repercussions for his death. Death, as a character had a pretty unique relationship with Dean and in my mind, he was both shocked and maybe a little hurt (LOL) that Dean actually turned on him. I think the possibility that he wasn't killed, so much as scattered to the cosmic wind, isn't so far-fetched. He wasn't just any old entity, he was a Horseman. It could be retconned that while Billie is Death, head of the reapers, she is not Death, the Horseman. So it took a couple years for him to reintegrate, and now he needs a vessel. Using the guy who proved to be his nemesis is the kind of poetic justice I think he would enjoy. Death said he could/would reap God, so surely an archangel wouldn't be problem for him (as long as he doesn't hand him his scythe, lol). It would take some thoughtful writing to get to Dean agreeing to become him/his vessel in order to defeat AU!Michael, but I can imagine it. Maybe Death tricks him, promises it will only be for as long as it takes to end Michael, and then reneges, taking off with Dean's body as the credits roll on 13x23.

ETA: who/whatever it is, I fully believe it's something Dean consents to as opposed to something that happens to him, or another being that happens to look like Jensen while real!Dean is still with us, solely based on Jensen's words that Dean 'steps up'.

Edited April 21, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[gonzosgirrl]

My niggle with it being Michael right now is the spoiler pics of Jensen. I was way on board with Michael until these came along.Not the garb so much as what he's doing. Nothing we know about Michael to date suggests to me that he'd be interested in being dressed as a dapper human, wandering the city streets. I think if Michael were resurrected and free to do as he pleases, he'd beat feet back to Heaven, or off to some other place in the universe where nobody wants to put him back in the cage. I'm still on the train, but I have one foot on the platform.

Jensen also mentioned having big shoes to fill, and presuming the whole reason for Dean stepping up is to save his family/the world. Based on that, it stands to reason it has to be someone/thing with power. For me, that rules out John (either version, JDM or Matt), Henry, or any other human from the past. Raphael? Well we had a few iterations of the character, but I wouldn't consider them iconic. Azazel? Why - IMO he'd be more inclined to help AUMichael. Lucifer? Again, why? Unless something happens to the Nicksuit. Then he would literally have big shoes to fill - Jared's. But there is 0% chance of that, IMO, given Dabb's boner for Mark P.

All indications are that it's not a new character, So yeah, right now, given the dapper dress, the body language and Jensen's words, I'm leaning towards Death, with the caveat that if it is a time-travel thing, all bets are off. 

[ILoveReading]

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

. Nothing we know about Michael to date suggests to me that he'd be interested in being dressed as a dapper human, wandering the city streets. I think if Michael were resurrected and free to do as he pleases, he'd beat feet back to Heaven, or off to some other place in the universe where nobody wants to put him back in the cage. I'm still on the train, but I have one foot on the platform.

I don't think we really know anything about Michael.  AU or Original flavor.  Plus, if its Cage Michael he's supposed to be crazy so things he does, like dressing like a man from the 1920s might not seem strange to him.  Maybe that's how the last person he interacted with dressed. AW Michael was so underused he's a complete blank slate. 

Plus, with all the references and church stuff, I think Michael is going to be a part of the finale. 

Since the character is not supposed to be Dean, wouldn't him becoming death just be another version of Dean?

Edited April 21, 2018 by ILoveReading

[ahrtee]

I want to clarify some things I brought up before, because it seems some have taken it and run in a whole different direction from what I thought I was saying.

I wasn't saying Dean might become either Henry or Samuel, because both would probably have been born in the 1920s and therefore not wearing that vintage clothing.  I was thinking maybe *their* parents, and more likely a Winchester, as a full-fledged MoL with all the proper training and indoctrination for generations might be useful, rather than the "hunters are apes" Campbell line, who most likely wouldn't look so dapper.  But I wasn't suggesting either Dean going back in time or becoming one of them, just asking more if *maybe* one might be brought to the present (hence them wandering around in 2018.)  And Jensen would get to play one of them as a whole different character, *not* as Dean-being-someone-else.  That doesn't preclude *Dean* from doing something heroic/stupid, because we could then have *two* Jensens--one Dean, one someone else.  But I don't think that would work with the spoilers we've been given.  (I was using it as an example of a way Jensen could be a different character instead of Dean.)  

My personal opinion is that Dean wouldn't become death, partly for the very reason @gonzosgirrl mentioned: 

58 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

A good portion of fans have been waiting for repercussions for his death.

It's the *fans* who have built this up into something big and more important, and nothing we've heard from any of TPTB has suggested that it's even crossed their mind.  But if they did want to have a "cosmic repercussion," I don't think it would just be for Dean himself, but more world-changing, except that they've run out of earth-shattering threats after The Darkness.  I know they change canon to suit whims, but if "men can't become angels" and only special vessels with much prep can hold archangels, why should a mere human be able to contain a Horseman (much less, why should that horseman *want* him to?)  It just doesn't make sense to me.  

Personally, I agree with this:

19 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Jensen also mentioned having big shoes to fill, and presuming the whole reason for Dean stepping up is to save his family/the world. Based on that, it stands to reason it has to be someone/thing with power. For me, that rules out John (either version, JDM or Matt), Henry, or any other human from the past. Raphael? Well we had a few iterations of the character, but I wouldn't consider them iconic. Azazel? Why - IMO he'd be more inclined to help AUMichael. Lucifer? Again, why? Unless something happens to the Nicksuit. Then he would literally have big shoes to fill - Jared's. But there is 0% chance of that, IMO, given Dabb's boner for Mark P.

But that seems to leave only Michael, which (as pointed out) doesn't explain the 1920s outfit.  Therefore, back to it being a red herring--as in maybe a Jensen-not-Dean brought to help with the fight but not Dean's real role.  

This whole thing is making my head ache.  I think I'll stop reading spec and just watch to see what happens.

[SueB]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

ETA: who/whatever it is, I fully believe it's something Dean consents to as opposed to something that happens to him, or another being that happens to look like Jensen while real!Dean is still with us, solely based on Jensen's words that Dean 'steps up'.

That is a possibility I hadn't even been focusing on.  Although dual acting is damn tough (like Jensen in The End and Misha in The Big Empty) on the actor over an extended period of time.  And a doppleganger-type character (I don't mean an ACTUAL doppleganger, we had that in "Skin") is not really Dean "stepping-up".  

So I'm inclined to say that's Dean's meatsuit w/ someone else driving.  But I could be wrong.  

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, SueB said:

That is a possibility I hadn't even been focusing on.  Although dual acting is damn tough (like Jensen in The End and Misha in The Big Empty) on the actor over an extended period of time.  And a doppleganger-type character (I don't mean an ACTUAL doppleganger, we had that in "Skin") is not really Dean "stepping-up".  

So I'm inclined to say that's Dean's meatsuit w/ someone else driving.  But I could be wrong.  

In case that sentence you bolded wasn't clear, I was including that in the 'as opposed to' items. I don't believe it's a doppleganger.

 

25 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Since the character is not supposed to be Dean, wouldn't him becoming death just be another version of Dean?

Isn't that true of any character that takes over his body? When I say he becomes Death, I mean he becomes Death - not Dean doing Death's job. Death, as incarnated by Julian Richings, with his superior attitude and penchant for pizza et al.

28 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Maybe that's how the last person he interacted with dressed. AW Michael was so underused he's a complete blank slate. 

The last people he interacted with were Sam, Dean and Adam, lol. And prior to that (that we know of), it was 70s John & Mary.

[Aeryn13]

I don`t think it`s gonna be a dual role for an extended period, not with the current yearly mandate of "more time off". Nina Dobrev was close to collapse when she did that during Season 2 of TVD because of the shooting schedule. 

That tweet picture of the glass window with Michael is either a pretty obvious clue or some epic foilery trolling because they must know that "Michael" is the number one speculation. 

Maybe they do indeed get a "Michael" from the past and he just happened to be around on Earth during the 20s. It`s almost silly now that when angels were first introduced Cas said they hadn`t been walking the Earth for thousands of years. The Lily Sunders episode alone told us that was hogwash.

Heck, it could be the favourite time period of someone from costuming and after the tentacle porn episode with the girl in the flapper outfit, they begged to go 20s again and the writers went "why not? we`ll just be writing something in".

I`m not counting out Death, he is definitely a high number two on my spec list.   

Edited April 21, 2018 by Aeryn13

[SueB]

56 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

In case that sentence you bolded wasn't clear, I was including that in the 'as opposed to' items. I don't believe it's a doppleganger.

 

Isn't that true of any character that takes over his body? When I say he becomes Death, I mean he becomes Death - not Dean doing Death's job. Death, as incarnated by Julian Richings, with his superior attitude and penchant for pizza et al.

The last people he interacted with were Sam, Dean and Adam, lol. And prior to that (that we know of), it was 70s John & Mary.

Oh no... it was just me.  You sparked a thought and I thought it thru.  That's it.  

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

I don`t think it`s gonna be a dual role for an extended period, not with the current yearly mandate of "more time off". Nina Dobrev was close to collapse when she did that during Season 2 of TVD because of the shooting schedule. 

That tweet picture of the glass window with Michael is either a pretty obvious clue or some epic foilery trolling because they must know that "Michael" is the number one speculation. 

Maybe they do indeed get a "Michael" from the past and he just happened to be around on Earth during the 20s. It`s almost silly now that when angels were first introduced Cas said they hadn`t been walking the Earth for thousands of years. The Lily Sunders episode alone told us that was hogwash.

Heck, it could be the favourite time period of someone from costuming and after the tentacle porn episode with the girl in the flapper outfit, they begged to go 20s again and the writers went "why not? we`ll just be writing something in".

I`m not counting out Death, he is definitely a high number two on my spec list.   

 

I'm also now leaning more towards it being Death-unless the twenties garb is the foilery(Jensen did make sure that the fandom on-lookers that day noticed him in that garb-in fact, he more than made sure of it, just going by that one tweet). 

The main reason that I  now think it's Death is because of his comment about having big shoes to fill.

Taking the rest of my comment to the bitter spoilers thread, just to be safe.

Edited April 21, 2018 by Myrelle

[MysteryGuest]

I doubt we'll get Jensen playing a double role.  He said himself he didn't want to do that again after The End...it was pretty exhausting.  As much fun as that might be for Dean fans, I can't see him taking that on for multiple episodes. 

If he's supposed to be playing someone Iconic from the show, then my money would be on Death.  I don't feel that Michael was ever really an iconic character on this show.  And if they were going to bring him back, then why clutter the field and take the edge off his return by also bringing back Gabriel?  Unless the plan is to bring back all the Archangels so they can band together to save Heaven in their father's absence, I don't see what the end game is.  

Once AU Michael is dispatched, what happens to our Michael?  Does he kill Lucifer this time?  This is the season of redemption, so isn't Lucifer due for his?  If the love of his son isn't enough to make him finally appreciate his own father's vision of humanity, then what's the point?  They certainly haven't used the concept of being Satan's son to add any drama to Jack...at least not yet.  

If I could have my wish, I think I'd vote for some completely new character for Jensen to take on.  I can't imagine who that would be, but they're pretty good at creating relatives of God's out of thin air.  Maybe he has a baby brother that no one ever talks about.  A black sheep uncle who'll show up to kick his Archangel nephews' asses and get them to fulfill their own destiny.  I have no clue, but I'm just not all that keen on his being Death reincarnated or Michael.  They've been done before and it's time to move past the same old characters, IMO.  

Edited April 21, 2018 by MysteryGuest

[catrox14]

5 hours ago, SueB said:

Not trying to poke the bear, but wasn't she past that point with you already?  I know she is for many (not me, but for many).  

I guess I buy it because Jack still needs guidance and Sam and Dean do not.  Further, Mary is literally younger than the boys and less experienced.  She can offer them love and support but one of the biggest jobs (and yes joys) of parenting is teaching them, helping them to see the world.  I don't even know if she would have to explain that to Sam & Dean.  If Jack does not go darkside, then they will likely see Mary mentoring him.  And Jack clinging to her like a mother figure?  Normal too.  He sees Team Free Will as his family.  And she's apprently "Mom".  And while he loves his natural mother, he's still open to Mary's guidance. Plus she'll naturally take on a protective/teaching roll for the young man who came to rescue her. Add his cinnamon roll earnestness (which he gets from Cas -- I'm sticking with that BTW, that somehow Castiel's earnestness influenced Jack in the womb), and boom.  It's a natural match.       

Under the TMI note: When my children both got married last year (within 6 weeks, it was a busy year), my daughter started to get a little jealous of time spent with my daughter-in-law.  Color me shocked.  I recognized what was influencing that (combo of many things) and took steps to rectify. 
So I GET Sam & Dean still need Mary and would be bit resentful if she mama'd Jack.  That's ALSO reasonable.  But unless Mary moves into the bunker and is partnering full time (unlikely), this is somethng that they will likely see but not stop.  And honestly, having a powerful entity devoted to Mary and around to protect her?  That would ease the brother's heart some.  

I'll update.  You know I don't "anti" so I confirmed the link and then vamoosed (ah... look... a pun!).  Get it? va-moosed?  I'll show myself out. 

No Mary wasn't dead to me because she seemed like she was willing to try and rebuild the ties at the end of 12.22

But if she becomes a mom to an adult nephilim who isalready the most powerful entity in the universe and doesn't try to bond with her actual sons again.then yes. That's it. I will view her worse than John and you know how I feel about John.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

 I can't imagine who that would be, but they're pretty good at creating relatives of God's out of thin air. 

Ever since Amara spoke about how she and her brother pretty much just came into being and there were no Mommy and Daddy, just nothing before, I`ve been waiting for "Nothing" or "Chaos" to be introduced into the show in human form. Just another primordial being of the super-greatest power, you know. Starting this Season, I wondered briefly if they are gonna go there with the Empty-Keeper at some point, he seemed super-old. 

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

character is not supposed to be Dean, wouldn't him becoming death just

No, because it would be a possession just like Michael.

[catrox14]

Dean is the only entity know to have killed Death with his own scythe, thus Dean should be the only one who would have cosmic consequences. And I personally think the writing left space for it back in s10 and in AT.

[MysteryGuest]

Dean becoming possessed by Death, or becoming Death as a result of killing him back in season 10 just seems like a reach to me.  I know we all thought for sure there'd be repurcussions when it happened, but when 3 years went by and not a peep was mentioned by anyone, it is still going to feel like they pulled this storyline out of their asses, as far as I'm concerned.  Which isn't to say that they won't do exactly that, because they do it all the time.  But I'd have much preferred if it had happened sooner, or they'd at least kept the threat of those cosmic consequences hanging over his head all of this time.  They didn't.  The cosmic consequences were from removing the Mark and releasing the Darkness.  None of that had anything to do with Death's death.  And they doubled down by killing Billie and still no consequences for any of them.  Billie got a promotion, and she made some random joke about keeping her scythe as far from Dean as possible, but it hardly seemed threatening when she said it.  I just don't see a logical reason for Death to come back at this point, other than it's just one more character they're going to bring back from the dead, but with a prettier face.  

While I've never yearned for Dean/Michael, at least that would make sense based on the story arc this season.  Bringing him back to fight his evil twin from the AU would be reasonable.  But after being locked in the Cage all of this time, what exactly would be his motivation to help mankind or his siblings?

Edited April 22, 2018 by MysteryGuest

[DeeDee79]

I'm not too in favor of Dean becoming Death. I loved how he was portrayed by Julian Richings and if they were to really bring back the character I would like to see him take on the role again. I don't doubt that Jensen could knock it out of the park if he assumed the role but I don't know if I would enjoy it as much. Then again I could be blown away by Jensen's take on Death if it goes that route.

[SueB]

2 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

 This is the season of redemption, so isn't Lucifer due for his?  

Not Lucifer, Michael.  Seriouslly, I think Lucifer's pity-party Table for 1 makes it pretty clear he's not going to shift spots.  But our Michael may be redeemable.  Yes, he was a gigantic dick.  But he still ruled over a Heaven that at least preferred the "we're the good guys" bumpersticker.  Maybe after being in the cage for a couple of years/centuries, he'll have an epiphany.  

Or not.

So, lots of hints about Michael.
Then we have Jessica talking about Death pulling a resest when things get too wonky -- Heaven closing is kinda wonky but not necessarily against the 'natural order'.  So Death is not an unreasonable guess.

Or it's something we haven't thought about yet. It's fun to keep guessing.  

[MysteryGuest]

22 minutes ago, SueB said:

Not Lucifer, Michael.  Seriouslly, I think Lucifer's pity-party Table for 1 makes it pretty clear he's not going to shift spots.

I don't necessarily disagree with this, but Lucifer has yet to actually meet his son.  I think that's the one thing that could change him, not that I'm championing for Lucifer to be redeemed.  But it does seem to be the trend this season.

[Castiels Cat]

A friend of mine on another board (Alycat) made a brilliant observation.  She wondered if Dean might be slowly dying from that bullet wound he received in AU Apocalypse despite Ketch's tender ministrations which precipitates Dean becoming someone else.  Her theory is he becomes possessed by whoever is the entity Cas awoke in the Empty who is Death and he will awaken the angels for heaven... stull makes no sense to me.

I think the idea that Dean is dying slowly is, brilliant in reference to Jensen's performance and Billie's parting line.

I still think the set-up is there in spades for Dean!Michael and Naomi's spiel or Dean's potential imminent death does not change that. 

Dean's first priority will be Mary. Everything else will be gravy.  And they have already established that he will be making a quid pro quo deal.  Rowena will want Lucifer dead  and addressing AU Michael will probably be part of it as well.

I do not know what that thing in the Empty was but it did not act like death. The only oil based things we ever saw were leviathan.  

Now that would be a twist.  Cas is really Dick come back for revenge.  Naw.  Leviathan don't get angel powers if they eat an angel do they?  And then we get Dick Dean for real....

That oily goo God really bugged me.  I do not think Cas got out of there that easily...

[gonzosgirrl]

5 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

A friend of mine on another board (Alycat) made a brilliant observation.  She wondered if Dean might be slowly dying from that bullet wound he received in AU Apocalypse despite Ketch's tender ministrations which precipitates Dean becoming someone else.  Her theory is he becomes possessed by whoever is the entity Cas awoke in the Empty who is Death and he will awaken the angels for heaven... stull makes no sense to me.

I think the idea that Dean is dying slowly is, brilliant in reference to Jensen's performance and Billie's parting line.

That's a pretty good theory. Not necessarily that he's dying from the poisoned bullet, but that he somehow dies and gets sent to The Empty. It took on Castiel's appearance, so there is precedent for it taking Dean's. Only instead of letting Dean come back, he decides to go walkabout himself. He/It seemed cocky and arrogant enough for the posture in the spoiler pics. Then the beginning of S14 would be Sam & Company trying to figure out how to get him back, and we could still see real Dean occasionally as he tries to find a way out of The Empty, (if he felt like doing the dual-role thing), or see him 'asleep' if he doesn't. Or, Billie herself brings him back if they don't want too many episodes of not-Dean.

It doesn't fit with the 'big shoes to fill' thing though, and it's not something anyone has been waiting for. Too bad though, it had potential as a good story and character.

Edited April 22, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[MysteryGuest]

When Jensen was Demon Dean, I wanted that arc to last a bit longer to see where they could go with it.  But if Jensen is going to be playing a character completely separate from Dean, I'm not sure I want that to last too long.  I like Dean.  I would miss his character if he were gone too long.  I'm a fan of Jensen's acting, and I'm interested in seeing what he could do with a "new" character, but I'm not prepared to spend half a season next year without our Dean.  

This show isn't normally very good at keeping things secret, so I'm guessing we're going to be hearing more about just who this new character is fairly soon.  

[Jonesy]

I know some people still think Dean will be Death but I agree with Jessica at Tree topper who doesn't see that as plausible--we have a Death now and reapers replace Death.

[catrox14]

48 minutes ago, Jakes said:

I know some people still think Dean will be Death but I agree with Jessica at Tree topper who doesn't see that as plausible--we have a Death now and reapers replace Death.

Bold part:

This is the key.  Billie is a Death.   OG Juilan Richings played THE Death, the Horseman. AFAIK, she was not promoted to a Horseman. So that means IMO she is a reaper that wears Death's ring and does that job. I don't think she became a different kind of entity like the Four Horseman.

Unless he possessed Billie in some way, Billie is still Billie the Reaper. IMO, she is serving as "Death" but is not the character, Death.

So to me, if OG Death is out there somewhere, he can still come back possess Dean, just like Michael, so Jensen would be playing Julian Richings version of Death. Not Dean Winchester's version of Death.

Now I personally would love to have seen Dean be A Death. But since it's being said that Jensen is playing a different character, and IF it is THE Death, then he'll be reprising Julian Richings version which is both exciting and kind of a bummer. That said, it would certainly fit with him saying those are big shoes to fill and that he hopes he can to it justice because he has always praised Julian's performance. 

Edited April 22, 2018 by catrox14

[catrox14]

I have moved up Cain into my top 3 dark horse candidates. IMO, Tim O would also be someone who Jensen would speak of that highly and respectfully. 

I don't know what the purpose would be other than Mark of Cain and First Blade combo being what is needed to kill AW Michael. If you ask me me, how would that work? He still had the Mark of Cain when Dean killed him with the First Blade, so unless Rowena's spell reached into wherever Cain ended up, IMO, a Marked up Cain can possess Dean. 

[Jonesy]

28 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Bold part:

This is the key.  Billie is a Death.   OG Juilan Richings played THE Death, the Horseman. AFAIK, she was not promoted to a Horseman. So that means IMO she is a reaper that wears Death's ring and does that job. I don't think she became a different kind of entity like the Four Horseman.

Unless he possessed Billie in some way, Billie is still Billie the Reaper. IMO, she is serving as "Death" but is not the character, Death.

So to me, if OG Death is out there somewhere, he can still come back possess Dean, just like Michael, so Jensen would be playing Julian Richings version of Death. Not Dean Winchester's version of Death.

Now I personally would love to have seen Dean be A Death. But since it's being said that Jensen is playing a different character, and IF it is THE Death, then he'll be reprising Julian Richings version which is both exciting and kind of a bummer. That said, it would certainly fit with him saying those are big shoes to fill and that he hopes he can to it justice because he has always praised Julian's performance. 

 

You know I don't think that is how the show is doing this--IF Death dies the next reaper gone becomes THE Death.  And Death died or Billie would not be back from the dead.

Edited April 22, 2018 by Jakes

[catrox14]

20 minutes ago, Jakes said:

You know I don't think that is how the show is doing this--IF Death dies the next reaper gone becomes THE Death.  And Death died or Billie would not be back from the dead.

Agree to disagree. :)

[Castiels Cat]

7 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

That's a pretty good theory. Not necessarily that he's dying from the poisoned bullet, but that he somehow dies and gets sent to The Empty. It took on Castiel's appearance, so there is precedent for it taking Dean's. Only instead of letting Dean come back, he decides to go walkabout himself. He/It seemed cocky and arrogant enough for the posture in the spoiler pics. Then the beginning of S14 would be Sam & Company trying to figure out how to get him back, and we could still see real Dean occasionally as he tries to find a way out of The Empty, (if he felt like doing the dual-role thing), or see him 'asleep' if he doesn't. Or, Billie herself brings him back if they don't want too many episodes of not-Dean.

It doesn't fit with the 'big shoes to fill' thing though, and it's not something anyone has been waiting for. Too bad though, it had potential as a good story and character.

 

Are. In my opinion r here has been 2 seadons,se uo for Dean!Michael. Not lettimf tbat go.

But I tbink she is correct in that he is still slowky dying.  Great observation on her part.

And yes also reminded me that Cas can still go sideways because that oing goop gut was off and Cas initially was off 

.

Edited April 22, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

7 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

When Jensen was Demon Dean, I wanted that arc to last a bit longer to see where they could go with it.  But if Jensen is going to be playing a character completely separate from Dean, I'm not sure I want that to last too long.  I like Dean.  I would miss his character if he were gone too long.  I'm a fan of Jensen's acting, and I'm interested in seeing what he could do with a "new" character, but I'm not prepared to spend half a season next year without our Dean.  

This show isn't normally very good at keeping things secret, so I'm guessing we're going to be hearing more about just who this new character is fairly soon.  

I was not a,fan of Dean!,Michael in season 5 because it would have gone against everything Dean was then.

I don't think it does now. Especially since Dean has changed so much and he has already a major player in the supernatural world.  Look how he negotiated with Death in Advanved Thanalology.

Dean will negotiate. There is a reason I keep typing Dean!Michael  and not Michael(Dean). I do not tbink it will be the typical possession. Dean is human in name only if he is even still rhat after having drunk Phoenix ash, been a,vamp for a day, survived Purgatory for a year, been to hell forc40 years, been to fairy land, carried the MoC for over a year, was a demon... every supernatural being he meets treats him like an equal...  Tbis will not be an ordinary angelic possession.

It will be a business,arrangement and a melding.

Or they coukd surprise the fck out of us.  In wgic case my vote is on Crowkey.  He always wabted to be in Dean's pants.  There is no fcking way he would kill himself.   There is absolutely no way he would blow it on a,spell that was not guaranteed to eviscerate Lucifer out of existence.  They just blew an episode name dropping him to death.  Crowley lives and needs a meat suit.

But seriously... They have done everything but write on a chalk board 1000 times that they are setting up Dean!Michael.

Admittedly that suit is weird.

We have never seen Michael's sartorial flare though. Just Michael dressed as john.

19 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I don't necessarily disagree with this, but Lucifer has yet to actually meet his son.  I think that's the one thing that could change him, not that I'm championing for Lucifer to be redeemed.  But it does seem to be the trend this season.

Yeah. The low grace gives him the feels. Amael gets to him too.  Else he would have killed her.  He loves her.

[Bobcatkitten]

I'm not sure how I feel about the Death speculation. I loved Death1 but I have thought Billie has made another amazing Death. I would hate to lose her. 

[Castiels Cat]

22 hours ago, catrox14 said:

No, because it would be a possession just like Michael.

Possession varies according to tbe angel.  Gadreel allowed Sam to be in charge much of the time for instance.

There is every indication that Dean would be negotiating terms which might mean we would get Dean part of the time or Dean adjacent hybrid part of the time.  

No reasonTo expect it to be Jensen as Michael.

Dean is a savvy operator and is nobody's fool and is an old hand at negotiating.  He already negotiated with Death this season.

On 4/21/2018 at 12:42 AM, SueB said:

Spitballin' some speculation:
- Jessica talked about Death and a reset. What if that is what Michael!Dean is engaged in.  Going back in time to prevent himself from screwing up with the Apocalypse in the first place.  Back to the 1920's & great grandpa Winchester (or Campbell).  But I have no idea why Dean would think that was a good idea.  Maybe Dean thinks saying yes to Michael to stop AU Michael is a good idea and then Michael takes his vessel on a road trip to fix the past so that he (Michael) never makes these mistakes.  Maybe Michael blames himself for everything (maybe he SHOULD).  Maybe Death is counting on Dean doing a reset.  Both Death & Michael are (IMO) going to be wrong -- Sam, Cas & maybe real Dean himself will not give up this screwed up timeline quietly.  Because they can't trust Michael back in power.  

Very interesting.

[Castiels Cat]

On 4/20/2018 at 6:29 PM, Casseiopeia said:

This is pretty spoilery....at least it seems like it from the comments.

I finally watched the fan video of Dean in fancy dress.  I agree that it is not Dean.  Definitely holds the body more stiffly.  I don't get a past vibe either though. Just a very expensive well tailored men's outfit.  Angels wear suits.

Kind of man out of time.  But who knows what the cool kids wear these days.  Not Dean.

Is Sam following him?

Not much else to say..  

Seriously... where is the Death speculation coming From? He is not in black.  No skull tipped cane.  Not a death trope in sight.  

Dean is going off the rails but he is the ultimate strategist and pragmatic.  He will make his self sacrifice count. 

Priority 1 is save Mary..  For this he needs an easy supply of archangel grace and possibly a hail Mary resurrection  because he is dying from bullet wound poison.

Priority 2 is saving world.from AU Michael/Lucifer/heaven's collapse

Dean is smart enough to realize that Gabriel is not a sure thing even if he helps them in the short term.

He is,already desperate enough to try anything especially if it means,risking himself, especially if he is already a dead man. 

Dean knows that  Michael is sitting in the cage probably jonsing for a way to hurt Lucifer and Rowena is emotional over fergus afraid of Lucifer too. It is just too easy now that Asmodeus,is,gone,and he has nothing to lose.

And boy Billie showing Dean his shelf of deaths and  talking about choices... and her see you soon... boy... when Dabb does it well it sings.

[MysteryGuest]

I absolutely do not want Dean to become Crowley.  That would be a huge insult to Mark.  They had a damn good Crowley and they invited him to leave, so turning around and bringing him back a year later, only to be played by someone else, would completely suck.  I'm not even sure Jensen would agree to do that.

I really don't want it to be Death, either, pretty much for the same reason.  If they want to bring back original Death, then bring him back with the original actor.  He was fantastic!  I don't doubt that Jensen would put his own spin on the character, but why reinvent the wheel?  Just how many Deaths does one show need?  I like Billie so why confuse things?  As for whether she's just plain old Death, or Horsemen level Death, who the hell knows.  She said she was Death, and I didn't get the impression from her that it was a job title she shared with anyone else.

So other than getting my wish and having it be a completely new character, I guess my default "favorite" option is Michael.  Bringing him back makes the most sense, and the characterization of Michael has been vanilla enough that Jensen can give his own interpretation without immediately being compared to who played him originally.  

Edited April 22, 2018 by MysteryGuest

[gonzosgirrl]

I guess it would be a pretty big compliment to Matt Cohen if Jensen thinks the hot-minute we saw him as Michael left big shoes to fill. And while Jake did fine in his role as Adam, his screen time as Michael can be measured in seconds, so there's that.

Maybe he was being cute and is talking about filling the shoes of an Archangel, not the actors who portrayed him?

I don't think there is any chance whatsoever that Jensen would agree to portray Crowley.

Edited April 22, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[MysteryGuest]

34 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I guess it would be a pretty big compliment to Matt Cohen if Jensen thinks the hot-minute we saw him as Michael left big shoes to fill. And while Jake did fine in his role as Adam, his screen time as Michael can be measured in seconds, so there's that.

Maybe he was being cute and is talking about filling the shoes of an Archangel, not the actors who portrayed him?

I don't think there is any chance whatsoever that Jensen would agree to portray Crowley.

That's the only thing that doesn't make Michael work for me.  It doesn't fit Jensen's description of the role.  And the actual character of Michael on the show was pretty much non-existent, so just what does he hope he can live up to?  Matt played him for a few short minutes, but his portrayal of Michael wasn't much different from his portrayal of John.  And that's not meant as a shot against Matt.  They simply never fleshed out the character of Michael like they did with Lucifer.  Honestly, if it weren't for posters here lamenting the fact that Dean/Michael never happened, I'm not sure Dean's becoming Michael would have ever crossed my mind.  He was that much of a non-character, IMO.  

For a hot second when they used Michael's lance to kill the Prince of Hell, I thought that was a bit of foreshadowing that they might revisit the Michael story, but when nothing ever came of that, and no mention was ever made of the spear again, I figured it was a dead deal.  The only reason I think it's a possibility now (other than the fact that they've brought everyone else back already) is that they need archangel grace, and we're all assuming his is still 100% intact.  But it does appear from previews that Gabriel comes back to help TFW, so if that's the case, then do they really need Michael's angel grace?  

[Casseiopeia]

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

I finally watched the fan video of Dean in fancy dress.  I agree that it is not Dean.  Definitely holds the body more stiffly.  I don't get a past vibe either though. Just a very expensive well tailored men's outfit.  Angels wear suits.

Kind of man out of time.  But who knows what the cool kids wear these days.  Not Dean.

Is Sam following him?

Not much else to say..  

Seriously... where is the Death speculation coming From? He is not in black.  No skull tipped cane.  Not a death trope in sight.  

Dean is going off the rails but he is the ultimate strategist and pragmatic.  He will make his self sacrifice count. 

Priority 1 is save Mary..  For this he needs an easy supply of archangel grace and possibly a hail Mary resurrection  because he is dying from bullet wound poison.

Priority 2 is saving world.from AU Michael/Lucifer/heaven's collapse

Dean is smart enough to realize that Gabriel is not a sure thing even if he helps them in the short term.

He is,already desperate enough to try anything especially if it means,risking himself, especially if he is already a dead man. 

Dean knows that  Michael is sitting in the cage probably jonsing for a way to hurt Lucifer and Rowena is emotional over fergus afraid of Lucifer too. It is just too easy now that Asmodeus,is,gone,and he has nothing to lose.

And boy Billie showing Dean his shelf of deaths and  talking about choices... and her see you soon... boy... when Dabb does it well it sings.

Angel possession has been done already.  That wouldn't be shocking or something they have never explored before.  I just don't think that is going to be the case here.  All signs point to Michael but unless he is totally retconned all Michael wanted to do was make humans into Stepford wives (those he didn't kill in his little pissing match with Lucifer).   There was a reason why Dean said no.  Michael was portrayed as a dick.  Why would he care what happens to humanity?  He never did before.

[ILoveReading]

13 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

That's the only thing that doesn't make Michael work for me.  It doesn't fit Jensen's description of the role.

Unless he wasn't really talking about his role specifically.  Jensen is very complementary of Jared as Lucifer, maybe he meant he's have big shoes to fill by doing an equally good job as Michael.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

Possession varies according to tbe angel.  Gadreel allowed Sam to be in charge much of the time for instance.

My point was more that Dean

Would be Death's vessel like any possession.

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I guess it would be a pretty big compliment to Matt Cohen if Jensen thinks the hot-minute we saw him as Michael left big shoes to fill. And while Jake did fine in his role as Adam, his screen time as Michael can be measured in seconds, so there's that.

Maybe he was being cute and is talking about filling the shoes of an Archangel, not the actors who portrayed him?

I don't think there is any chance whatsoever that Jensen would agree to portray Crowley.

100% agree with this

[Castiels Cat]

2 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

Angel possession has been done already.  That wouldn't be shocking or something they have never explored before.  I just don't think that is going to be the case here.  All signs point to Michael but unless he is totally retconned all Michael wanted to do was make humans into Stepford wives (those he didn't kill in his little pissing match with Lucifer).   There was a reason why Dean said no.  Michael was portrayed as a dick.  Why would he care what happens to humanity?  He never did before.

Never got rhat image of Michael. When push cake to shove he did not force Dean even though Dean said yes technicalky nor did he oubish him.

He left John intact post possession.

He thought he was following his,dad's plans.

A but of a,zealot perhaps. 

He seemed otherworldly but not cruel or callous.

We have seen very little of him really.

We saw Zachariah wv o was a dick .

We have heard Lucifer's ,take.. Lucifer lies. 

We have seen AU Michael. He is,an alternative 

We have little idea really of what out Michael is like except for the fact that he a dually allowed Dean to choose and did not snide him when he was unnecessary or lobotomoze him and use his lobotomoze body or torture Sam until he said yes.

It is the most likely scenario on a board when the have set up the Apocalypse again with many of the same characters and tropes.

Yeah I guess they could pull something out of their assets but as far as anvils and set ups, etc. Dabbler and have is have set this up so very well...

They would have to be Eric Kripke to FCK it up.

[Castiels Cat]

2 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

That's the only thing that doesn't make Michael work for me.  It doesn't fit Jensen's description of the role.  And the actual character of Michael on the show was pretty much non-existent, so just what does he hope he can live up to?  Matt played him for a few short minutes, but his portrayal of Michael wasn't much different from his portrayal of John.  And that's not meant as a shot against Matt.  They simply never fleshed out the character of Michael like they did with Lucifer.  Honestly, if it weren't for posters here lamenting the fact that Dean/Michael never happened, I'm not sure Dean's becoming Michael would have ever crossed my mind.  He was that much of a non-character, IMO.  

For a hot second when they used Michael's lance to kill the Prince of Hell, I thought that was a bit of foreshadowing that they might revisit the Michael story, but when nothing ever came of that, and no mention was ever made of the spear again, I figured it was a dead deal.  The only reason I think it's a possibility now (other than the fact that they've brought everyone else back already) is that they need archangel grace, and we're all assuming his is still 100% intact.  But it does appear from previews that Gabriel comes back to help TFW, so if that's the case, then do they really need Michael's angel grace?  

It was a big deal to Jensen because he and Matt prepped together so rhat their portrayals would be cohesive and I would guess that Matt's one appearance eas pretty important to Matt and his career at the time which Jensen understood and it was important to Jensen.  Remember how Jensen's one appearance on Dark Angel was breakout. Jensen is an actor's actor.  Matt was standout as Michael.  The angel casting was stellar in those days.

My recollection was thst It was a disappointment when the storyline was shelved to Jensen and probably to the crew.  Production had really been selling Dean as the Messiah in the set design and the writing was its best when Dean was a part of the grand mytharc.  That is when the show was at its peak of wide critical acclaim.

From an intellectual perspective as soon as I saw the signs that they were resetting things for the Apocalypse I suspected it was to set up Dean!Michael. The main reason to bring back a definitive storyline is fix the mistake you made and fgor me they have done rhat by tying it to dean's tragic fkaw and his cimolex emotional psyvmcholgy surtounding Mary's,loss. 

It made no sense fgor him to say yes in season 5. It does now as far as I am concerned. 

The Ramiel episode was the episode that made me realize my spec was absolutely spot on.  Before then I was pretty sure they were setting up the Apocalypse based on the series reboot feel, Mary appropriating iold Sam tropes, character resets...

It is only a matter of weeks at this point.   However it falls I am curious as to how long it lasts.  Given the fact that Supernatural remains a network stalwart I am not convinced the show can end anytime soon.  They almost have to mix it up to keep it going.   Dean has been solo a lot tbis season.  Maybe they will use the new plot to start separating the brothers more to keep the show going?

The writing is getting better.  Last season was hard to watch. I may start taking again

[gonzosgirrl]

14 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Never got rhat image of Michael. When push cake to shove he did not force Dean even though Dean said yes technicalky nor did he oubish him

Dean never said yes to Michael, technically or otherwise. He told Zachariah he would say yes, and then Zach called Michael down. I'm not sure what the last part of your statement means.

[Castiels Cat]

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I guess it would be a pretty big compliment to Matt Cohen if Jensen thinks the hot-minute we saw him as Michael left big shoes to fill. And while Jake did fine in his role as Adam, his screen time as Michael can be measured in seconds, so there's that.

Maybe he was being cute and is talking about filling the shoes of an Archangel, not the actors who portrayed him?

I don't think there is any chance whatsoever that Jensen would agree to portray Crowley.

 

Does Matt have big feet?

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Dean never said yes to Michael, technically or otherwise. He told Zachariah he would say yes, and then Zach called Michael down. I'm not sure what the last part of your statement means.

Okay.  But still Michael could have gotten nasty and he let him go.  He could have retaliated and he let him go. He let him get away with killing Zechariah too.

I was kidding about the Crowley spec. I am still so pissed about the way they killed him off.... He better be alive in AU...

Edited April 23, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[AwesomO4000]

14 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

He seemed otherworldly but not cruel or callous.

We have seen very little of him really.

We saw Zachariah wv o was a dick .

We have heard Lucifer's ,take.. Lucifer lies. 

We have seen AU Michael. He is,an alternative 

We have little idea really of what out Michael is like except for the fact that he a dually allowed Dean to choose and did not snide him when he was unnecessary or lobotomoze him and use his lobotomoze body or torture Sam until he said yes.

I disagree here. I found Michael to be quite callous. He thoughtlessly killed two people just to talk to Zachariah. Michael was the one who thought to resurrect Adam and dangle his mother in front of him as bait and then have Zachariah torture him. Just because Michael had Zachariah do his dirty work for him doesn't absolve him for me. It's all coming from Michael - including the capture and torture of Anna and Castiel in season 4.

5 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Okay.  But still Michael could have gotten nasty and he let him go.  He could have retaliated and he let him go. He let him get away with killing Zechariah too.

Well, he condoned the torture of Adam and then decided Adam was easier to manipulate, so took him. I think in Dean's mind that was almost worse. Also, the question is when did he take over Adam? If it was right away, why did he wait so long to go after Lucifer. That wasn't what Zach was selling to begin with. And if he didn't take Adam right away, exactly what "persuasion" did he use to get Adam to say "yes."

Yeah, I don't trust anything Michael has to say. The angels wanted Lucifer in Sam for some reason - no matter what they said about wanting to get him in a weaker vessel. Otherwise as soon as Michael took over Adam, he should've been on Lucifer in Nick in a millisecond after that. But that's not what happened as far as I could tell.

I stand by my assessment that Michael is, if not a "big bag of dicks" like Lucifer, at least a huge dick. In my opinion, he set up his own demise due to his arrogance, shortsightedness, and callousness.

[Casseiopeia]

37 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Never got rhat image of Michael. When push cake to shove he did not force Dean even though Dean said yes technicalky nor did he oubish him.

He left John intact post possession.

He thought he was following his,dad's plans.

A but of a,zealot perhaps. 

He seemed otherworldly but not cruel or callous.

We have seen very little of him really.

We saw Zachariah wv o was a dick .

We have heard Lucifer's ,take.. Lucifer lies. 

We have seen AU Michael. He is,an alternative 

We have little idea really of what out Michael is like except for the fact that he a dually allowed Dean to choose and did not snide him when he was unnecessary or lobotomoze him and use his lobotomoze body or torture Sam until he said yes.

It is the most likely scenario on a board when the have set up the Apocalypse again with many of the same characters and tropes.

Yeah I guess they could pull something out of their assets but as far as anvils and set ups, etc. Dabbler and have is have set this up so very well...

They would have to be Eric Kripke to FCK it up.

Zack was Michaels fixer.  He didn't care how Zacharia did it as long as he got Dean to say yes.  Torture Adam, kill him he didn't care what his hatchet man did. Michael was the one who orchestrated the Apocalypse or the planetary enema.  Michael was senior management. He let Lilith break the seals, sent Castiel to Bible Camp in order for Ruby to complete her task.  The whole point of the 5 season arc was to let Lucifer out in order for Michael to kill him.  Michael didn't care how many people died in the process.  Dean was right to say no.  Adam was stupid to say yes.  

Edited April 23, 2018 by Casseiopeia