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Spoilers With Speculation


SueB
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Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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(edited)
5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I hope you're right. I'll be so down for Dean having some other cool stuff to do. I will eat all the hats if that happens though. But that would be AMAZING AND YAY DEAN!

And FWIW, ...The title of the episode is A Most Holy Man. Completely different words that mean something completely different. That "The" and "A" change the context and meaning completely.

Thanks for pointing out the proper title :) . I still stand by my belief that Dean as the righteous man could be loosely considered “a holy man” and while there are multiple candidates out there  he’s the holy man they’ll go for next episode. 

Edited by Wayward Son
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14 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Thanks for pointing out the proper title :) . I still stand by my belief that Dean as the righteous man could be loosely considered “a holy man” and while there are multiple candidates out there  he’s the holy man they’ll go for next episode. 

That's fair but I just wanted make it clear that I don't think the show is intending to say that whoever is A Most Holy Man, is the Most Holiest Man, which what I think you are trying to imply.  If I'm wrong, let me know.

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I wish I could believe it referred to Dean but I'm not going to get my hopes up only to have them screwed with again.  I suspect it's whoever that guy is that they were talking to and whom we then see lying on the floor.  Or a casual passerby.  Anybody except Dean.

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I made some erroneous spec because i missed part of the episode and went nuts over heresay.  I sorta watched what I missed on my phone with connection acting up bigly … 

Then...

I course corrected...


Big cheers to Dean and Sam for stopping the Apocalypse. It makes what appears to be happening now more tragic.
Yikes Dean has absolutely no issue about summoning what he believed to be humans to kill and cut out their hearts for a spell. Yep Dean is dark. That is very Plum Sisters of him.
Gog and Magog were Neolithic Rosencrantz and Guldenstein types. That entire scene was a hoot. Jensen and Misha are both bringing their A gane this season.
Also I was off on the nephilim spec… no syrorise since i had not seen it. Weird that at they were giants that survived the flood. Also weird that they were made of sand. Weirder still that their swords cut/ broke an angel blade. Thos still could be Jack killing blades by the way. .
Dean killing both seems significant. He is stronger than Cas for one. Some lore equates their killer wirh the Messiah. Their death is considered a harbinger of the Apocalypse. It all hints at DEAN having a special role and is reminiscent of his previous titles (Michael’s sword, righteous man). So yeah. Still on the crazy Dean!Michael train.
Weird faces aside Cas does seem in Machiavellian soldier mode. Even if POOG did not rewire him a bit it bodes poorly because militaristic angel mode leads to Apocalyptic dystopias. He definitely was pissed about Dean. So now that I have seen this I am understanding Cas’ mindset more although I will not discount POOG rewiring him a bit
He still seems to see Jack as some messiah too per his vision courtesy of fetus jack and seems to see his resurrection as a sign that his greater purpose is serving Jack. Again militaristic angels trying to create a utopia for a leader is exactky bow one ends up with an Apocalypse.
The weird facial expressions and mildly sadistic behavior towards Lucifer…. POOG rewired him.
I know that they were in a church however that was a lot of blatant messiah iconography around Jack. Perhaps more than Dean was associated with in season 4. It could just mean he saves alt-world from Michael I guess. Or they are making a connection between Jack and Christ to signify Jack will die.
The lingering shot of Michael within the opening Jack created in the metal grace suggests that Jack opens a the rift and Michael gets through.
Bobby loves Mary. I kind of like gentleman Bobby.
The Bobby and Mary conversation. Definitely two universes that differ because of Mary saying yes or no. I favor the quantum multiverse because Billie had a discussion with Dean on this subject which I cannot ignore. I do love the Buffy vengeance demon idea and that could work.
There were three major things to take away from the conversation. Mary’s guilt is her driving emotion which makes sense because everything she did last season was obviously guilt driven. She is also protective of her sons and very proud of them throughout the episode.
Bobby not only points out that the difference between their two worlds resulted from Mary’s choice he states that Dean and Sam make theur world safe. So this It’s a wonderful Apocalypse and has been written to remind them and us of the positive difference the Winchesters make. I vaguely recall fans grumbling that the brothers were no longer written as heroes and wonder if the writers misunderstood thatl this wasbfan code for ” I hate tbis storyline”, took the complaints seriously and decided to show that thebWinchesters were heroes albeit dirty ones
The third takeaway is that Bobby is all the AU Apocalypse has. It is a hint that they need Jack so his plan to kill Michael is a good thing to do.
Jack acts like a cult member who has drunk all of the koolaid. The shadow animals were adorable. So he was weakened in the beginning by warding. He could kill Michael….
Donatello and Jack are mirrors. Donatello used Mr. Rogers as a morality guide… What woukd,Mr. Rogers do? He would be wearing a cardigan Donatello. It is his prime directive. Jack uses Dean and Sam… what would Dean and Sam do. Donatello went bad. From using his power… I really liked the extrapolation they made regarding the soul being a protective filter so Donatello was corrupted by the demon tablet. This suggests Jack using his power on a large scale will turn him to the dark side. They hinted at this when Jack was opening a rift to free the shadeen (sp).. Jack gaves us creepy psycho face rather than his usual bland moonie face. See what i mean about too many mytharcs.
I think he will open the rift for Mary at about the same time TFW opens their own rift. A very Supernatural gift of the magi moment. Michael probably comes here because this writing team likes multiple mytharc something fierce. Jack dies trying to stop him or goes mad/bad crazy…. They have so many balls in rthecasir this season that I cannot tell.
And yes the recipe to open the rift screams Dean making a deal with Michael. Which can’t be good given what we have seen about Michael. The fact that our michael is crazy is the wildcard.      Usually by this point I have a good idea about probable outcomes in big strokes without the details. I have been able to out the details together yet because they have too many players and too many storylines.  Too many notes!  At this point I want Asmodeus reenact Silence of the Lambs to get them off of the board.  I want POOG to sleep through the rest of the show.  And please keep those shadeen away.  You just know that the key to their release is on that demon tablet and Donatello read it.  Just say no Dabb!
All I really know is that it is getting very interesting. And we are definitely getting Dean!Michael... I am sticking to that.

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More thinking, possibly more clarity...

There is a  lot going on .  Some more tboughts in which I  have tried to keep character motivations in mind.  It helps me to identify the major and minor plots. This is still in progress.  My head hurts so this is as far as I have gotten.

I think the Fauxpocalyse. Might be a red hsrring of sorts to distract from the fact that they are moving everything in place for a real one with Winchesters.  Asmodeus is so lame that Letch appears to be constajt my trying not to laugh and Michael is stupid. 

I confess that there are so many storylines and characters in it now that it is confusing to see the forest for the trees. Too many balls in the air.

I do think they have set Dean up yo say yes to save Mary.  The guy is ready to cut out people's hearts for a spell... He will have no problem saying yes to michael to save  mommy.  They have shifted Sam into Dean's former caretaker and the moral high ground role, however  I also think there are hints for Sam saying yes too.  For me his car convo with Rowena raised this possibility and given Lucifer's current state Sam is his best bet to heal.  Not only is Sam his OTP but in season 9 with Gadreel we saw that vessel strength matters in this regard.

It is nice to see Cas with purpose however he seems to be dedicate to Jack as a warrior and militaristic angels are inherently dark characters on his show. It makes me nervous.

They have set up at lot of conflicting possibilities for Jack and Lucifer.  Jack wants to do good; ie. What would Sam and Dean do; and at the moment he identifies as human .  I think using his powers changes that balance and open a up the potential for him to break bad.  We saw the psych face he had when using his powers to free the shadeen.  And They have mirrored Donatello and Jack.  Donatello tried to do What Mr. Rogers would do and when he used his powers he was corrupted.

So Jack could go bad.  I think he will open a rift to free Mary; he opened jail up to free her which hints thematically to this.  He wants to kill Michael.  The framing of the last shots of Michael within Jack's opening suggests that he lives  long enough to get here.  I think AU Michael is there to motivate other characters which will start a chain event.  Actually this has already started.  Lucifer and Cas' actions are motivated by the upcoming War with Michael.  Jack has established life goals to kill him. The Winchesters  doubled down on rescue plans when they heard that AU Michael tortured her. Dean wasn't on board with opening the rift until he heard that. So AUMichael is the great motivator.  I don't see him lasting long once these balls are in motion.

Lucifer is inherently bad and yet he feels some fatherly inclination towards Jack and is hovering near humanity which has to intensify his fatherly love.  It sure looked like he was set for redemotion... but... that image on him on the crown with his army was unsettling.   And militaristic angels at war following his orders... this is another very scary scenario.

It is also the opposite of the first Winchester Apocalypse. Now we have Lucifer in heaven planning for War and Michael in the cage.  Instead of Sam releasing Lucifer unintentionally I tbink Dean will release Michael intentionally.  Once our Michael is our we are set up for an Apocalypse.  Michael us crazy, .Michael is not in charge of heaven however given Lucifer's comment about the single mindedness of his brothers in any universe to achieve their objective, he will be motivated and dangerous and crazy.

I have no idea what Asmodeus wants besides killing Lucifer and finding door opener Jack to free the shadeen.  It looked like that would be a bad thing and yet another mytharc so please not this season.  Despite the fact that he has Gabriel, a weird archangel  blade and some handy parlour tricks he feels inconsequential to me. Doesn"t mean he won't create distractions get someone killed or manage to use Donatello to release the shadeen using the demon tablet. I don't think the Apocalypse is his thing. It is possible Rowena is/will work with him to kill Lucifer. Common goals and she likes to feel superior to men.  There's no doubt she is superior. I hope that he provides her with all of tthe best evening gowns.

Gabriel  tryed to educate the boys, gave critical Intel, and failed to kill Lucifer the last time around.  They may reverse this to some extent or tweak it sideways. After all our Apocalypse  set-up is polar opposite at this point. He is a pretty big hint that we are getting our Apocalypse.  So is Dean killing Gog/Magog.

Killing them is an Apocalyptic harbinger in biblical lore much as Sam Killing lilith as previously.  Some lore equates their killer with the messiah.  Some texts conflate Michael  with Jesus.  Wiki does not go into tremendous detail however it is more evidence that Dean will play Sam's role in Apocalypse 2 0.   1st he kills Apocalyptic figures fulfilling a prophesy.  Next I think he will open the gate to release Michael and say yes.  Boom... Apocalypse

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Well, "Holy" means "consecrated to God".  Dean DID commit to do God's will in S4.  But that's a VERY thin thread.

Last time they needed a "righteous bone", they used Sister Mary Constantines.  

Seems to me they'd go after a monk or someone else who has years of quiet prayerful goodness just to be safe.  Only if someone tells them it HAS to be Dean, otherwise, that's not where they are going to look.  

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(edited)

Not gonna lie, this teaser made me smile more than any they've done this season. LOL!

"I can feel it." - Dean

"He can feel it." - Sam, mocking Dean.

Heheh.

"Chicanery? Chicane this!" - Dean

Edited by gonzosgirrl
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So with one day to go what’s everyone final bets, who is the holy Man referenced in the episode title? 

 

My bet is still on Dean especially after the reveal it’s the blood of a holy man required and Dean’s blood was already the key ingredient of a spell this season. 

 

What about the rest of you?

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Some random dude

46 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

So with one day to go what’s everyone final bets, who is the holy Man referenced in the episode title? 

 

My bet is still on Dean especially after the reveal it’s the blood of a holy man required and Dean’s blood was already the key ingredient of a spell this season. 

 

What about the rest of you?

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(edited)

Some random dude gets my vote, too. And IMO, angels are just about the unholiest beings in the SPNverse, so I don't see it being any of those. Dean was already 'important' once this season, as the guy who'd been to Hell and back. No way that happens twice.

Edited by gonzosgirrl
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My bet's on random dude, as well.  I'm just not sure how Dean would qualify as "most holy".  I mean I love Dean, but I don't think he qualifies as a holy man.  Unless they come up with some alternate meaning, then who knows.

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6 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Not gonna lie, this teaser made me smile more than any they've done this season. LOL!

"I can feel it." - Dean

"He can feel it." - Sam, mocking Dean.

Heheh.

"Chicanery? Chicane this!" - Dean

Why do I suspect that Dean's "feeling" doesn't work out too well?  LOL

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23 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

Why do I suspect that Dean's "feeling" doesn't work out too well?  LOL

It's funny because the thing I like least about Sam is when he gets his condescending/superior attitude on towards Dean, but when it's on purpose like this, it's freaking hilarious.

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9 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Dabb and Singer wrote this.  No way its Dean.  I'd put money on Sam.

If it's one of the brothers, I'm guessing Sam, too; and for the same reason.

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(edited)

 

Sneak Peek.

This makes it sound like the blood is random. These sneak peeks usually come just after the teaser and I can't see them naming the episode A Most Holy Man for just some random dude whose blood seems important less then five minutes into the episode.

But suddenly Sam has a problem with stealing?  A guy who lives on credit card fraud, hustles, and had no problem sacrificing a human for no other reason then he didn't want to be alone suddenly is looking down on Dean about stealing.

It sounds like they're trying to put Sam on some sort of moral high ground. 

Seriously, Sam needs to get off that high horse he seems to have placed himself on.

Edited by ILoveReading
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Quote

But suddenly Sam has a problem with stealing?  A guy who lives on credit card fraud, hustles, and had no problem sacrificing a human for no other reason then he didn't want to be alone suddenly is looking down on Dean about stealing.

It sounds like they're trying to put Sam on some sort of moral high ground. 

Which is why I think the episode will make a switch and suddenly have Sam as a "most holy man" because he suddenly is all dainty and moral. That would be right up Dabb and Singer`s alley. Also ridiculous for all the reasons you listed but still, what I would expect from them.

Right now I`d give it a 50/50 chance that it stays random dude or it will be Sam. 

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9 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

"Look, this isn't a perfect world we're trying to save and if I'm not perfect trying to save then so be it."

I do like this line a lot.  It's so Dean. 

It's actually a great line and also IMO, a bit of ominous foreshadowing.  The context is absurd though. Like if they wanted to write something to show that Dean is self aware, which he generally is IMO,  why set it up  against Sam professing his newfound and heretofore unseen moral outrage at thievery....is weird.  t also opens up a path for Dean to do something even more morally questionable that he and Sam can further be at odds over. 

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18 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

So with one day to go what’s everyone final bets, who is the holy Man referenced in the episode title? 

My bet is still on Dean especially after the reveal it’s the blood of a holy man required and Dean’s blood was already the key ingredient of a spell this season. 

What about the rest of you?

I'm banking on it being neither Winchester, nor random. I don't know who it will be, but I'm not so sure it will be random.

Oh, and BTW, I don't think they're stealing the blood. I think they're stealing something that will get them to the blood; like an artifact of some sort. But Sam's attitude is nothing short of perplexing. I mean, they aren't thieves generally, but Sam is acting like he did back in S1 about the credit card scamming...which, I was under the impression he'd grown up and accepted the way of their world years ago? 

Anyhoo, can't beat a little chicanery! ;)

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(edited)
35 minutes ago, Diane said:

I am so psyched to see Dean, Sam and Cas with the real Scooby Gang!  Dean with Daphne--perfect...lol.

By the way--100% percent the Holy Man is a random dude...just someone the boys find to create the formula Cas got for them.

Edited by Jakes
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I really do wonder about the Scooby episode turning dark nd that it's kind of Dean centric. It's like Deans greatest hits since s12 with Regarding Dean and now he's in his favorite cartoon growing up feels like a  bucket list thing for Dean. part of his long good bye, his true death this season, whichI and others have been spec ing for some time.

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Just now, catrox14 said:

I really do wonder about the Scooby episode turning dark nd that it's kind of Dean centric. It's like Deans greatest hits since s12 with Regarding Dean and now he's in his favorite cartoon growing up feels like a  bucket list thing for Dean. part of his long good bye, his true death this season, whichI and others have been spec ing for some time.

Are you expecting an announcement that this is to be the final season of the show then?

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17 minutes ago, Jakes said:

I am so psyched to see Dean, Sam and Cas with the real Scooby Gang!  Dean with Daphne--perfect...lol.

By the way--100% percent the Holy Man is a random dude...just someone the boys find to create the formula Cas got for them.

What is Dean wearing???

tumblr_p5a4zszGOl1rux44mo2_1280.jpg

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3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I really do wonder about the Scooby episode turning dark nd that it's kind of Dean centric. It's like Deans greatest hits since s12 with Regarding Dean and now he's in his favorite cartoon growing up feels like a  bucket list thing for Dean. part of his long good bye, his true death this season, whichI and others have been spec ing for some time.

Pretty sure if this was the final season they would have already announced it.  Jensen and Jared have said they are in it together, they are not going to continue if both are not in the show.  So I can't imagine why the conclusion would be made that Dean is going to die and stay dead. 

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8 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Are you expecting an announcement that this is to be the final season of the show then?

Yup. Or if there is a s14, Dean won't be a true alive Dean. JMHO. 

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4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Yup. Or if there is a s14, Dean won't be a true alive Dean. JMHO. 

They would not end the show after 13 season without going out with a bang and promoting it all season as the last. 

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7 minutes ago, Diane said:

Pretty sure if this was the final season they would have already announced it.  Jensen and Jared have said they are in it together, they are not going to continue if both are not in the show.  So I can't imagine why the conclusion would be made that Dean is going to die and stay dead. 

 

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Yup. Or if there is a s14, Dean won't be a true alive Dean. JMHO. 

I’d have to agree with Diane! I think if this were the final season they’d have announced it by now. The CW are usually good at giving their older shows an official final season rather than cancelling mid season. I also couldn’t see them  continuing without Jensen. Pedowitz (the CW president for anyone who doesn’t know) has said on several occasions the show will continue for as long as both Jared and Jensen want it to provided the ratings don’t fall (which hasn’t happened). 

 

What makes you think this is the final season ?

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5 minutes ago, Diane said:

retty sure if this was the final season they would have already announced it.  Jensen and Jared have said they are in it together, they are not going to continue if both are not in the show.  So I can't imagine why the conclusion would be made that Dean is going to die and stay dead. 

I think Paleyfest will be an announcement. You can't imagine it, that's fine. I can and I've stated the reasons in other posts in this forum so I won't repeat them here.

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1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I think Paleyfest will be an announcement. You can't imagine it, that's fine. I can and I've stated the reasons in other posts in this forum so I won't repeat them here.

So you think they would announce at Paley even though they gave notice to Vampire Diaries and the Originals and other shows, which quality wise they were not as good and ratings wise the same?  Not to mention Supernatural is a network darling.  Doesn't make any sense. But ok.....

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2 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

 

I’d have to agree with Diane! I think if this were the final season they’d have announced it by now. The CW are usually good at giving their older shows an official final season rather than cancelling mid season. I also couldn’t see them  continuing without Jensen. Pedowitz (the CW president for anyone who doesn’t know) has said on several occasions the show will continue for as long as both Jared and Jensen want it to provided the ratings don’t fall (which hasn’t happened). 

 

What makes you think this is the final season ?

I won't repeat my SL Dean rationale.

Recently Jared has really been pushing the fans at cons to push the showrunners about a s14...more so than in the past.  I look at comic con. It was a big deal with Kansas. They've been on covers of the EW.

I posted something in the ratings thread (I think) from another commenter at PTV (who seems to be an industry person, who spoke about how the CW is not really all that great how they deal with older shows. 

Again, this is just my opinion.

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1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I won't repeat my SL Dean rationale.

Recently Jared has really been pushing the fans at cons to push the showrunners about a s14...more so than in the past.  I look at comic con. It was a big deal with Kansas. They've been on covers of the EW.

I posted something in the ratings thread (I think) from another commenter at PTV (who seems to be an industry person, who spoke about how the CW is not really all that great how they deal with older shows. 

Again, this is just my opinion.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts :)

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There is ZERO chance this season is the last for SPN--absolutely no chance.  At the earliest it will go to 300 episodes but I expect it will almost certainly go longer than that too...at least a full season 14 and more than a 50% chance for season 15 too.  And a maybe for 16 at the most imo. 

About Dean dying--maybe but it would be the final episode but Sam and Cas could maybe die in final episode too.  Or maybe NOT for all three.  BUT NO chance before the final episode.

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Taking the rest of my replies to the Ratings thread.

 

The posts in the ratings thread from the Arrow forum member are why I am much less certain that SPN will get the best treatment and a proper send off.  THEY SHOULD but that doesn't mean they will.  I stand by that the end of the show will be announced at Paleyfest.  Maybe this season, maybe s14. 

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1 minute ago, scribe95 said:

I think AT WORST we get an abbreviated season 14. But they would know from the beginning it would be the end, giving appropriate time to write a worthy final season. 

Absolutely correct and they will give SPN a final season planned finale whether in season 14, 15 or 16.  No doubts.

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1 hour ago, Casseiopeia said:

What is Dean wearing???

tumblr_p5a4zszGOl1rux44mo2_1280.jpg

I'm guessing this is the end of the episode. That's Fred's scarf not Daphne's cause hers is green. Maybe Fred turns out to have a crush on Dean and he gives him his scarf for ....reasons. That would be hilarious and would make my day.

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Originally I was expecting Paylefest to have some sort of announcement, now that it's airing the Scoobynatural episode and they are clearly doing a "push" for it, starting with EW article, I think the "Paylefest" invite was more about the unique genre-bending approach Supernatural has and less about S14 or beyond.

To the Mystery Bus!
- Dean has "strong feelings about Fred and Daphne".  And he's holding her hand.  I wonder if Dean feel Fred doesn't take care of Daphne like he wants him too.  I mean, if he really was team Fred/Daphne, would he holding her hand and sharing her hiding space?  Yet he's wearing Fred's scarf (in what appears to be an "end of episode" scene).  So, I think he and Fred come to an "understanding" after this episode.  Maybe along the lines of "take better care of her or I'm coming back" threat.  Or opposite, Fred spews his love-filled Daphne feels at Dean and Dean gives him advice.  Either way, the monster will get the gank. Dean will temporarily get the girl.  But I just think there won't be Dean's definition of a "Happy Ending" (and if you don't recognize this, I'm borrowing from "Monster Movie").  
- SO glad Cas is in the episode.  I wonder if he will have his angel powers. 
- I see a Sam/Velma bond forming over lore-geek.  That makes me happy.  Two peas in a pod on the details. 
I have so MANY MANY things on my wish list.  Like one of them giving Scooby a Scooby snack.  I need some Scooby interaction.

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15 minutes ago, SueB said:

Or opposite, Fred spews his love-filled Daphne feels at Dean and Dean gives him advice.  Either way, the monster will get the gank. Dean will temporarily get the girl.  But I just think there won't be Dean's definition of a "Happy Ending" (and if you don't recognize this, I'm borrowing from "Monster Movie").  

The biggest mystery is why does Dean have Fred's scarf. 

I'm not being snarky or baiting.  Maybe Fred loses his scarf and Dean picks it up and wears it cause Fred saves them all? Maybe Fred figures out he likes boys and girls cause he has Dean feels too. Maybe Fred and Daphne are into sharing and Dean's all...cool...

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Dean has to join Shaggy and Scooby in munching on Scooby snacks!  Interesting with the pic with all them running,  Castiel in animation seems at least as big as Sam.

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Message added by ohjoy

Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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