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SueB

By SueB
in Supernatural

ohjoy
Message added by ohjoy

Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

(edited)
- COMPLETE GUESSING: Potentially Dean knocks out Sam, cuts his hand and feeds him his blood. This is his 'not mercy' bit.

 

Hmm. This would be interesting, but potentially a bad idea on Dean's part, since he knows what Sam can do with demon blood in him, though it might explain...

I do think that confrontation probably happens at the very end, as in the last scene and Sam will somehow get the upper hand.  It's the only way I can see how they end up in the bunker together.

how this could happen if that's the way it does happen. A blood-fueled Sam couldn't "exorcise" Dean, but I suspect the consequences of Sam trying to use his powers on him wouldn't be very comfortable for Dean and might end up in an incapacitated Dean. However, I don't suspect they'll go this route even though a detoxing Sam might explain why he'd be off his game resulting in Dean escaping, and would be at least an explanation besides "we need Sam to be an incompetent moron so that Dean can escape, so therefor Sam is an incompetent moron" (the writers annoy the crap out of me with that shit). But sadly I don't think they'd be that creative because 1) We can't have both brothers be weird / evil / special / etc at the same time. It doesn't seem to be in their wheelhouse. 2) They don't really seem to care if Sam looks like a moron. As long as the plot goes where they want, they'll sacrifice Sam's characterization if need be as illustrated by Cole's easy capture of Sam 3) for the writers, Sam's demon blood connection is so season 5, which for this show almost means it doesn't exist anymore.

 

 So I think I more agree with @DittyDotDot that Sam will summon Dean and trap him. However, I don't think the writers will go with something as interesting as the trap can't hold Dean because he's different. They'll likely just go with Sam does something shortsighted, incompetent, and/or lets his emotions get in the way and so therefor Dean escapes due to something stupid Sam does - to give Dean something else to taunt Sam with: how much of a moron Sam is. I'm sure some fans will love it. I'll just be annoyed that Sam once again does something because the plot says he does, characterization optional. The episode from season 8 with their grandfather where Sam quietly plays damsel in distress most of the episode comes to mind (they could have at least gagged Sam to explain why he wasn't protesting, but no, I'm supposed to buy that Sam, who's been through hell - literally - is gonna sit still and quiet and wait for Dean to come save him by trading something potentially dangerous to the world for him. Yeah, and I'll buy that ocean front property in Arizona while I'm at it, because it's a bargain.) In the last couple of seasons this sometimes seems to be the go to, and based on some of the things they have Sam do at times, I don't know how he managed to survive to adulthood, never mind be a hunter.

Edited by AwesomO4000
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PeterKahlke
PeterKahlke

NEXT ON SUPERNATURAL Sam and Dean search for the yellow-eyed thing that killed their mom.

devlin
devlin

I don’t care who JA is going to be playing. I could seriously watch this guy read the phone book and be completely enthralled. I am just looking forward to some powerhouse acting full of nuances by wh

gonzosgirrl
gonzosgirrl

So, so over it. You're a big boy - if you don't agree, put up or shut your judgey piehole.

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catrox14

catrox14

If it makes you feel any better Dean did the stupidest thing either one has ever done and that was taking on the MoC without asking anything about it. And look where that got him.

It would be super creepy if Dean did try to poison Sam with his own demon blood. that has some super gross implications but it would prove or disprove if the trials really actually purified Sam or not.

catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

New Sneak peek . okay this really freaked me out. Dean knows he's a demon. AND GODSDAMMIT I do not like when his eyes go black. so the question is it before or after the events of the first episode..? And Crowley is definitely screwing around with him. Also I have never actively thought about " Little Dean" before but I bet it's not little at all..

http://youtu.be/k51ZiSDBkOY

Edited by catrox14
SueB

SueB

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First, the BEST part of that scene is the fruity drink.  That got a literal LOL from me. 

 

Second, I think Crowley was straight up with Dean ... keeping the Mark sated is essential to keeping Dean mentally in control.  This is terrible, but I kinda found it funny that Dean flashed his black eyes at Crowley.  Like he was yanking his chain or something.  Obviously WHEN and how Dean goes black-eyed depends on the effect, but it wasn't scary to me.  It felt like at this moment Dean knows how to turn it on and off and it's right at the surface right now (because he needs to kill).  So, him flashing Crowley was...IDK...funny to me.  To quote Willow: "Sometimes I'm strange and oddly callous."

 

Last year I speculated that Crowley was playing Sam and Dean and in the end he'd turn Dean into a demon and have him kill Sam. That he was so pissed at what they did to him (got him addicted, made control of his kingdom a real mess).  Listening to the Mark Shepard audio commentary for Blade Runner, it certainly seems like Crowley WAS in fact trying to bond with Sam and Sam rejected him.  So...while I think the net effect was close to the same - Crowley has separated Sam and Dean and Dean is with Crowley-ish, I don't think it was all about revenge.  Clearly killing Abaddon was huge and he ENJOYS torturing Sam. But I really think he likes Dean. 

 

So... I'm going to guess that Crowley is going to continue to nurse-maid Dean. Even if that means turning him back over to Sam.  I think Crowley wants to be buddies with Dean.  I think Dean is going to be a "heartbreaker" for Crowley. 

catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

I don't buy Sheppard. he's a troll of the highest order. He isn't going to ever admit when Crowley does bad things. I still think Crowley did it for revenge. Sam wouldn't be his buddy so he went after Dean.

Oh Crowley likes Dean because he's useful and amusing. But no Crowley has a plan. He always has a plan.

The effect isn't scary. It's just the fact that it's Dean's eyes. It really does upset me. It's just not right

Edited by catrox14
mertensia

mertensia

That fruity drink bit was just priceless.

Crowley seems to be prodding Dean. I think he thought Dean would confess all and really truly didn't see this party til you drop no responsibilities Dean would be Dean's new personality.

If Dean went on a huge enough killing spree probably retreating to Hell would be the only place Dean could find safety from law enforcement.

SueB

SueB

  • Author

 

He always has a plan.

And we've got promo pictures of Crowley on his back.  The new promo also showed that the conversation w/ Crowley was taking place at the Flamingo.  I'm calling it now -- Crowley is the one who tips off Sam (and thus Cole) as to Dean's location.  Maybe he's doing it to cause Dean trouble or maybe he's doing it to prevent Dean from causing too much trouble.  We'll have to wait and see. 

DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

I don't think Crowley gives a crap about Dean causing trouble, he just wants him to cause only the trouble Crowley wants him to cause. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Crowley rats him out to Sam--he's not doing what Crowley needs so either Sam will fix him or Dean will kill Sam and probably become more what Crowley wants. I don't know.

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7kstar

7kstar

(edited)

It's a little early to talk about the new ep, but I really liked Crowley's last line in the promo.  Poor Crowley, you knew it was going to happen, he just needs, wants a friend and well Dean was more than he could control...oopsy.

 

So the question remains when Dean gets free, does he do by accident or is it a plan that Sam has to fix his brother.  I'm also wondering if it leads into the fans ep which is a strange way to somewhat cure Dean....

 

Now the shoe is on the other foot, and Sam isn't liking what he sees but I like what I'm seeing in Sam so far. 

 

What monster was Dean hunting that he let Cole live even though he has seen Dean or is Dean not aware that he's been seen.

Edited by 7kstar
Amerilla

Amerilla

I'll start by saying, as a former librarian, if Cole came into my library and started bleeding all over my books while demanding books on demonology, I wouldn't be pointing him towards the 133.4's - I'd be calling the cops

 

That said, do we think the likelihood that Cole doesn't just start reading up on demons but makes a deal and becomes one is:

 

a) high 

b) very high 

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catrox14

catrox14

I have to say I do not care about any of Dean's past coming back into haunt him stuff. I really don't. I find Cole annoying and I don't even care why he wants to kill Dean. If he's stupid enough to become a demon so he can take on Dean well good luck with that buddy.

What I suspect will happen is that he'll become a demon to fight Dean. Sam will try to detox Dean but it doesn't work. In the middle of Cole and Dean fighting suddenly the detox kicks in, Dean is powerless and Cole nearly kills him. Dean is in limbo Sam has to decide whether to let Dean die or not and then Sam goes on a vengeance hunt for Cole either way. Sam might even try to demon blood himself back up. Then Dean recovers and has to start worrying about Sammy.... Again. I sure hope I'm wrong.

Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

Second, I think he does something. Not sure demon but he does something to possibly power up to take on Dean.

 

 

Dammit, one more thing for Dean to angst about.  If Cole does something to fight Demon Dean, eventually human Dean will take responsibility for it and angst more than he has ever angst-ed before.

 

Son of a bitch.

AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

(edited)

Dammit, one more thing for Dean to angst about.  If Cole does something to fight Demon Dean, eventually human Dean will take responsibility for it and angst more than he has ever angst-ed before.

 

Son of a bitch.

If Dean does, Sam should smack him in the head for it, because Cole's choices are his choices and have almost nothing to do with Dean. Cole obviously had time to do other things in his life - as crappy in my opinion those choices also were (as I've expressed in the "Reichenback" episode thread) - including apparently finding love and having a kid. If those things aren't enough for him to give up on his stupid vengeance thing, that's his fault, and as I said John Winchester levels of irresponsible as well. There comes a point when "give it a rest" applies, and that should've been a long time ago for Cole.

 

Besides, if he's supposedly done any research on Dean Winchester, how did he not come across the "Supernatural" books online? Now that they are all out there likely including the "Winchester" part, he should've at least been curious and found all the monster and supernatural references. Or exempting that - I'm supposed to believe that Cole has never found any of the Dean Winchester: serial killer who has been dead how many times now stuff online and not thought hmmm how is this guy alive again? And why would Cole even consider going after someone like that because 1) The leviathan Dean Winchester should've scared the shit out of any normal human being and 2) He was supposedly DEAD - so end of story, no vengeance needed?

 

Not that I'm not enjoying the Dean and Sam aspects of this and the episode was great, but this is one huge plot hole that would only make sense if Cole knew about hunters - which he did not, and I think that was a mistake, because footage of crazed serial killer Dean - and Sam for that matter - Winchester should be on the internet in Supernatural-verse. Only people in the know - like hunters - would not make the connection that that was them, since no way would there be two separate groups of people with the names Sam and Dean Winchester who looked exactly the same and not be THE Sam and Dean Winchester: serial killers. As someone who enjoyed season 7 and "Slash Fiction" immensely, I am not going to forget that little tidbit of Sam and Dean history. It seems unbelievable to me that Cole wouldn't have found any of that stuff online and wondered about it or at least asked Sam about it when he had him tied up and was questioning him.

Edited by AwesomO4000
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SueB

SueB

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(edited)

Oh My. That clip.  Well they went THERE. Didn't they.  And Sam trying to convince himself this is "not Dean"?  Wowser.  And boy oh boy did Sam high-tail it out of that room. Dean wasn't lying when he said "no mercy". This is some f*cked up mental shit he's laying on Sam.

 

Yes indeed. Tuesday is going to be a WILD RIDE. I'll be stockpiling wine, chocolate, and toilet paper (because Chuck said to always stock toilet paper...so, good advise).

Edited by SueB
catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

ummm is it Tuesday yet?  I've been dying for this episode since comic con.

Holy crap.  Man. I just. It's...HALP

give_it_to_me_stephen_colbert.gif

 

 

Oh man. Jensen. Once more killing me.  They way he says 'Your existence took the life out of MY LIFE" Oh lord. Mary was everything to him. Oh man. That's just . I can't.

 

Also, okay so well I sure hope they address the hypocrisy of Sam saying that "We don't get to quit on this family"  ....except you know when you did TWICE Sammy. 

Edited by catrox14
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Mcolleague

Mcolleague

This is everything I ever wanted. Wtf, is it Christmas?! Demon Dean is a bitter Dean girl! :D The way he is saying these things is harsh, and human Dean would NEVER have said it even if there was some buried resentment, but these things SOOOO needed to be addressed. The consequences to Dean being protector/caretaker has ALWAYS been swept aside, romanticized even. It's implied in the show and in a lot of fandom that Dean hunting/taking care of Sam is a totally free choice, that it's somehow innate, like it's not an injustice and he should be happy about it? Yet the best thing about being a mechanic is that after you fix it they leave and you are not responsible for them anymore. "Your very existence sucks the life out of my life". Holy shit. He even uses the word "brainwashing" about what John made him do! Now I can die happy. :DD

 

If the writers finally address this properly, I will hang up my bitter Dean girl hat. If they completely recant on this and blame it on the demon talking and invalidate the legitimacy of what he said, the writers can expect to find hex bags under their pillows. 

  • Love 4
7kstar

7kstar

I have to say I do not care about any of Dean's past coming back into haunt him stuff.

What I suspect will happen is that he'll become a demon to fight Dean. Sam will try to detox Dean but it doesn't work. In the middle of Cole and Dean fighting suddenly the detox kicks in, Dean is powerless and Cole nearly kills him. Dean is in limbo Sam has to decide whether to let Dean die or not and then Sam goes on a vengeance hunt for Cole either way. Sam might even try to demon blood himself back up. Then Dean recovers and has to start worrying about Sammy.... Again. I sure hope I'm wrong.

If that is the plan, Carver will need to hide, because I don't think any fan is wishing for that crap, I hope they have a better plan for Cole and right now, I'm not buying he is younger than Dean when he looks the same age.  Perhaps a curse on... will fix it if Carver does something this stupid.  :)

 

This is everything I ever wanted. Wtf, is it Christmas?! Demon Dean is a bitter Dean girl! :D The way he is saying these things is harsh, and human Dean would NEVER have said it even if there was some buried resentment, but these things SOOOO needed to be addressed. The consequences to Dean being protector/caretaker has ALWAYS been swept aside, romanticized even. It's implied in the show and in a lot of fandom that Dean hunting/taking care of Sam is a totally free choice, that it's somehow innate, like it's not an injustice and he should be happy about it? Yet the best thing about being a mechanic is that after you fix it they leave and you are not responsible for them anymore. "Your very existence sucks the life out of my life". Holy shit. He even uses the word "brainwashing" about what John made him do! Now I can die happy. :DD

 

If the writers finally address this properly, I will hang up my bitter Dean girl hat. If they completely recant on this and blame it on the demon talking and invalidate the legitimacy of what he said, the writers can expect to find hex bags under their pillows. 

Sam, this is karma biting you in the ass.  It's not fun to be on the receiving end  but I'll give props to Carver if Dean doesn't ask for forgiveness when he is cured.  Funny thing is Sam, the line about Mary...ouch and you know he's thought that one before but it's one to to think the thought and totally another for the thought to be said to you, now isn't it.

 

I just hope they keep it going in the direction where I like both boys...It's been too long.  Really been missing this Sam, the one that family does mean something.  I hope he sticks around for the entire season.  Please Carver, don't let me down...please.

7kstar

7kstar

Personally I'm so worn out of Dean worrying about his Brother, Sam.  So I hope that Dean for ONCE keeps his story without passing it along to his brother.  If not, we need to figure out a way to send Carver a message...but hopefully he has been listening in a good way.  Only time will tell.

 

I'm looking forward to next week and I hope it lives up to the hype.

AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

(edited)
Also, okay so well I sure hope they address the hypocrisy of Sam saying that "We don't get to quit on this family"  ....except you know when you did TWICE Sammy. 

 

But the brothers seem to switch positions on this "give up on the family" thing. I mean sure, they've usually made Sam's transgressions bigger to support the "Dean gives all to his family" thing they love to showcase, but Dean's had his own notable quitting on his family moments throughout the series* and none of those were really addressed as hypocrisy after the fact, so I don't suspect they'll address it here either. Both guys like to play hypocrite at times. I suppose that's a human thing to do. Hell, not even angel Castiel is above it (and the show never addresses that either), so I wouldn't expect human Sam to be above it. Besides "try to appeal to Dean's sense of family" is default desperation strategy for Sam.

 

Usually the other brother is there to pick up the pieces of one brother giving up on family. That's just the way the writers like to roll. Well except for last season when both brothers gave up on family - with Sam deciding too late to change his mind.

 

* (The giving up on Sam, Bobby, and Castiel to say yes to Michael being the biggest example, but in some ways "Croatoan" counts as giving up, and maybe even the deal itself somewhat applies. Dean's revenge / depression of season 7 was a little bit maybe also quitting on his family.)

 

I just hope they keep it going in the direction where I like both boys...It's been too long.  Really been missing this Sam, the one that family does mean something.  I hope he sticks around for the entire season.  Please Carver, don't let me down...please.

 

This would be great, but we are talking about Carver here. The guy who took the "I have faith in you, Dean" Sam from late season 5, the "I appreciate what you've done for me, Dean" Sam from the second half of season 6, and the "hunting with you, Dean, is what keeps me sane" Sam and the "you deserve to take care of yourself, Dean" Sam from season 7 and... turned him into whatever that was we saw in season 8 Sam, sort of made things a little better, but then gave us second half of season 9 "Purge" Sam, so I'm not going to hope too much for anything and then maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised instead of horribly disappointed.

Edited by AwesomO4000
Hana Chan

Hana Chan

So Dean has always been bitter and resentful inside and has been blaming Sam for all his problems since he was four. Its not making me like Dean any better..

 

The worst lie always has the kernel of truth at it's heart (which is what makes it so convincing). I don't doubt that Dean does have a lot of resentment about the totally raw deal and he and Sam had in life. That their childhoods were pretty much non-existent and every since went totally to shit. But only someone that was totally irrational would blame Sam for being born when it was Dean's mother (who tends to be treated as a candidate for sainthood while John is constantly painted as being the shit parent) who made the deal that condemned Sam (as well as brought her own death when she tried to interfere). Sam and Dean have spent their entire lives living with the consequences of Mary's actions.

 

I don't know if this is so much DemonDean twisting Dean's justifiable resentments about their lost sin life or whether he is zeroing in on Sam's own (not entirely rational) feelings of guilt over what happened to their family. But I don't think it should be taken as indication that deep down, Dean actually believes that Sam is responsible for his life being what it was.

Pete Martell

Pete Martell

(edited)

Besides, if he's supposedly done any research on Dean Winchester, how did he not come across the "Supernatural" books online? Now that they are all out there likely including the "Winchester" part, he should've at least been curious and found all the monster and supernatural references. Or exempting that - I'm supposed to believe that Cole has never found any of the Dean Winchester: serial killer who has been dead how many times now stuff online and not thought hmmm how is this guy alive again? And why would Cole even consider going after someone like that because 1) The leviathan Dean Winchester should've scared the shit out of any normal human being and 2) He was supposedly DEAD - so end of story, no vengeance needed?

 

Not that I'm not enjoying the Dean and Sam aspects of this and the episode was great, but this is one huge plot hole that would only make sense if Cole knew about hunters - which he did not, and I think that was a mistake, because footage of crazed serial killer Dean - and Sam for that matter - Winchester should be on the internet in Supernatural-verse. Only people in the know - like hunters - would not make the connection that that was them, since no way would there be two separate groups of people with the names Sam and Dean Winchester who looked exactly the same and not be THE Sam and Dean Winchester: serial killers. As someone who enjoyed season 7 and "Slash Fiction" immensely, I am not going to forget that little tidbit of Sam and Dean history. It seems unbelievable to me that Cole wouldn't have found any of that stuff online and wondered about it or at least asked Sam about it when he had him tied up and was questioning him.

 

Considering that Cole's first decision after escaping death was to go to the local library to look for books on demons, maybe he is just very very Luddite. 

The worst lie always has the kernel of truth at it's heart (which is what makes it so convincing). I don't doubt that Dean does have a lot of resentment about the totally raw deal and he and Sam had in life. That their childhoods were pretty much non-existent and every since went totally to shit. But only someone that was totally irrational would blame Sam for being born when it was Dean's mother (who tends to be treated as a candidate for sainthood while John is constantly painted as being the shit parent) who made the deal that condemned Sam (as well as brought her own death when she tried to interfere). Sam and Dean have spent their entire lives living with the consequences of Mary's actions.

 

I don't know if this is so much DemonDean twisting Dean's justifiable resentments about their lost sin life or whether he is zeroing in on Sam's own (not entirely rational) feelings of guilt over what happened to their family. But I don't think it should be taken as indication that deep down, Dean actually believes that Sam is responsible for his life being what it was.

 

Dean has never been allowed to express his regrets and anger over his life, as he either hasn't had anyone to say it to, or any time he's confided his pain, it's been thrown back in his face. So the demon's reactions (part of which are just him screwing with Sam's head, as demons do best) are likely some of what Dean feels and can never say, and then some is an exaggeration. 

 

I wonder if this will be like "Sacrifice," where Dean still blamed Sam for what he did when he was Soulless Sam. If Sam will hold these comments against the "real" Dean.

 

I just hope it doesn't result in an apology tour. I'd rather they just move on. 

 

Between this scene, and Cas' venting in the last episode, it would be nice to think they are having a theme of repression and letting go, but I'm not sure that's intentional.

Edited by Pete Martell
7kstar

7kstar

But the brothers seem to switch positions on this "give up on the family" thing. I mean sure, they've usually made Sam's transgressions bigger to support the "Dean gives all to his family" thing they love to showcase, but Dean's had his own notable quitting on his family moments throughout the series* and none of those were really addressed as hypocrisy after the fact, so I don't suspect they'll address it here either.   Besides "try to appeal to Dean's sense of family" is default desperation strategy for Sam.

 

Usually the other brother is there to pick up the pieces of one brother giving up on family. That's just the way the writers like to roll. Well except for last season when both brothers gave up on family - with Sam deciding too late to change his mind.

 

* (The giving up on Sam, Bobby, and Castiel to say yes to Michael being the biggest example, but in some ways "Croatoan" counts as giving up, and maybe even the deal itself somewhat applies. Dean's revenge / depression of season 7 was a little bit maybe also quitting on his family.)

 

 

This would be great, but we are talking about Carver here... so I'm not going to hope too much for anything and then maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised instead of horribly disappointed.

Sam has always had something else he was interested in besides hunting and family. period.  Now that is not saying that is wrong...but it why his giving up feels harsher IMO.  On one hand I can totally relate with Sam, sometimes you have to walk away to survive the issues your family brings up.  He has always actively pursued his dreams, by going to college and having a relationship with Jessica.  Yes, it was cruelly taken away but he did the one thing that Dean couldn't bring himself to do...leave his family.  How much different would Sam be if Dean had left say like in Bad Boys.  So for me, Sam leaving has been shown as history...Dean's has been shown as giving up the fight to get the family back together again.  So I would like Sam to acknowledge to Dean how he can see the importance on not walking away from family. 

 

I like when Sam says things like we are still family even when I leave but it changing and growing, that Sam I can support, but the Sam of "Purge"...can we just forget that Sam ever ever happened and maybe this is Carver's attempt to fix that massive fail...I blame the writing more than Sam by the way.

The worst lie always has the kernel of truth at it's heart (which is what makes it so convincing). I don't doubt that Dean does have a lot of resentment about the totally raw deal and he and Sam had in life. That their childhoods were pretty much non-existent and every since went totally to shit. But only someone that was totally irrational would blame Sam for being born when it was Dean's mother (who tends to be treated as a candidate for sainthood while John is constantly painted as being the shit parent) who made the deal that condemned Sam (as well as brought her own death when she tried to interfere). Sam and Dean have spent their entire lives living with the consequences of Mary's actions.

 

I don't know if this is so much DemonDean twisting Dean's justifiable resentments about their lost sin life or whether he is zeroing in on Sam's own (not entirely rational) feelings of guilt over what happened to their family. But I don't think it should be taken as indication that deep down, Dean actually believes that Sam is responsible for his life being what it was.

Which is why the lie can hurt so much.  It's hold on a soul is strong and Dean is attempting to get Sam so rattled that he makes a mistake.  Also some emotions are so strong that even if you try to rationalize why it's not the way you should feel or think, if it occurs when you're a child such as four, the power of it just doesn't go away.  For me it is most likely a mixture, on one hand Sam gave Dean a purpose for moving forward and the other hand, he just wants his mommy back and the happy moments that helped to make him feel safe. 

 

We've already seen that it wasn't always happy at home, but children can focus on the good times and turn the bad times inward that somehow they are to blame.  Mom has been put on a pedestal and neither brother has been able to really put the blame on Mary, but I can understand why Dean has a harder time on this than Sam.  So this mix bag of issues, can easily become a weapon to hurt Sam, but I also think Sam is smart enough and dealt with enough demons to understand how badly Demon Dean is twisting it to hurt him.  The real question is once Dean is normal, how will Sam react?

 

Dean has never been allowed to express his regrets and anger over his life, as he either hasn't had anyone to say it to, or any time he's confided his pain, it's been thrown back in his face. So the demon's reactions (part of which are just him screwing with Sam's head, as demons do best) are likely some of what Dean feels and can never say, and then some is an exaggeration. 

 

I wonder if this will be like "Sacrifice," where Dean still blamed Sam for what he did when he was Soulless Sam. If Sam will hold these comments against the "real" Dean.

 

I just hope it doesn't result in an apology tour. I'd rather they just move on. 

 

Between this scene, and Cas' venting in the last episode, it would be nice to think they are having a theme of repression and letting go, but I'm not sure that's intentional.

It would be nice if repression and letting go were intentional but with our writers...well it just hasn't been their track record.

 

I really don't want the apology tour, just a quick acknowledgement and then have them both move on.  I would even take a bad joke, so we've both done the soulless thing, but Dean I'm proud of us too..

catrox14

catrox14

(edited)
nder if this will be like "Sacrifice," where Dean still blamed Sam for what he did when he was Soulless Sam. If Sam will hold these comments against the "real" Dean

 

I dont remember that being the case in Sacrifice.  I remember Dean telling Sam he needed ask for forgiveness as part of the detox and bugged him about starting the apocalpyse. I remember Sam essentially blaming Dean for having two friends he turned to after Sam abandon him to Purgatory.  I don't remember Dean saying anything to Sam about what he did when he was soulless. I remember Dean telling Sam he said some things that set him back on his heels but that he would never put anything or anyone in front of Sam. Dean blamed Sam in Southern Comfort for not looking for him and letting him be turned into a vampire. But  by the time Sacrifice rolled around Dean seemed kind of over that IIRC.

 

You'll notice that Dean doesn't bring up Ruby or the apocalpyse or the stuff that Sam actually did as resentments because we already know what Dean thought about those things. He did blame Sam for stepping out with Ruby and starting the apocalpyse but he also blamed himself.  IMO demon!Dean didn't bring up those things (at least not in the clip we saw) because it's already been hashed out and there is nothing in that argument that will give demon!Dean the advantage in this situation.

 

It's just like any demon, be it Meg or Crowley or Ruby or Alastair or Azazel.  Demons are master manipulators. They latch onto something in their victim that they know will cause the most pain and suffering for the victim, be it an insecurity, a fleeting doubt about themselves, a trigger inside themselves that a demon gloms onto to fuck with the victims head.  Like Alastair did with Dean.

 

IMO in this case, it's classic demon manipulation. demon!Dean is going after Sam's own doubts about his role in the family, his doubts about his own purity and whether he was evil from the beginning, that he is a freak and because he's a freak everything that happened in the family is because of Sam's existence.  Sam has had those doubts in his own mind.  So demon!Dean goes after Sam's existence. 

 

Then he goes after the fact that Sam has wondered if he has been a burden on Dean. I remember that from s2 and s3.  He takes that fear of Sam's that Sam was ruining Dean's life and spins into confirming that Yes in fact, Sam YOU did ruin my life."  But I don't think it's anything that regular!Dean actually believed.

 

Then using John.  Sam came round to being more like John than Dean was. And Sam has issues with John that were different than Dean's issues with John. "He said 'He brainwashed us into chasing after a futile thing' or something like that. Since John and Sam both put vengeance as first priority over survival that is picking at Sam being like John.

 

All of those things go right to what makes Sam feel the most insecure and Dean hoped it would provoke a response, maybe something just enough to throw Sam off his game and bait Sam into doing something that gives Dean the upper hand.

 

Again, demons find some truths in the lies and the exaggerations so they can really hurt the other person.

 

But no, I don't think regular!Dean actually believes that Sam ruined his life.  I think there is some nugget of truth in that any sibling resents another sibling when they have to bail out the other one again and again, but not in the way that the demony side of Dean is going after Sam. 

 

ETA: I think regular!Dean resents John for what John did to them. I think regular!Dean resents the situation that their life became but I don't for a minute think that regular!Dean BLAMES Sam for being alive.

 

I also think their might be some of Dean's own self-loathing in that diatribe too. Ever since Faith and In My Time of Dying that Dean was not part of the natural order of things anymore. Dean wanted to die in the warehouse. He didn't want to become what the Mark was making him. So I wonder if the real resentment of both Dean and demon!Dean is Sam not letting Dean die in the warehouse.

Edited by catrox14
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Hana Chan

Hana Chan

The sad thing is that DemonDean isn't telling Sam anything that Sam himself hasn't already thought time and time again. In The Song Remains the Same, Sam was very open about thinking that the world would have been better had he (and possibly Dean) not been born. And we had that game show scene in Changing Channels where Sam (unknowingly) answered that he agreed that Mary might still be alive it he hadn't been born.

 

It just goes to show how utterly both Sam and Dean have been fucked by fate and having to shoulder the consequences of the actions of others. It's not Sam's fault that he got sold out by his mother before he was even born, or Dean's that John set them on the life path that he did. But hell, the two of them have had to shoulder the consequences.

catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

 

The sad thing is that DemonDean isn't telling Sam anything that Sam himself hasn't already thought time and time again. In The Song Remains the Same, Sam was very open about thinking that the world would have been better had he (and possibly Dean) not been born. And we had that game show scene in Changing Channels where Sam (unknowingly) answered that he agreed that Mary might still be alive it he hadn't been born.

 

 

That's the point. A demon will go after what hurts the most. In this case, demon!Dean went for what Sam felt most insecure about. It's horrible and cruel and what demons do. The demon doesn't have to believe what they are saying. They just need the victim to believe it and to destabilize the victim.

 

What I want to know is how much of this kind of tactic is what Dean learned during his Hell time. Yes I am super bitter that Dean's Hell time was just so ignored and glossed over. I would really be happy if they had Dean say something like well I did learn from the cruelest.

Edited by catrox14
SueB

SueB

  • Author
(edited)

ITA, Demon!Dean's first priority is it f*ck with Sam's head.  And he's doing a good job of it! A+ Demon!Dean.  You are good at this. 

 

I also think the blood transfusions are having an effect.  Demon!Dean is amping up the rhetoric.  If the blood was making no difference he'd just be toying with Sam.  He's not toying IMO.  He accomplished what he wanted -- he got Sam to leave the room. 

 

So.. what mischief will Demon!Dean get into with Sam out of the room?  With Sam out of the room, will the human blood weaken the effect of the demon trap he's sitting in?  Look at Dean's bindings.  They are rope, not demon cuffs.  On any given day, Human!Dean could get out of those ropes in a second.  If he's feeling less of the trap and more human, he could possibly break out while Sam is gone.  So... mission accomplished...he drove Sam out of the room. 

 

ETA: kimrey, EXCELLENT find.  I 'm 100% larinah's speculation is SPOT ON. It's the spoiler thread so... I'll spoil... but good evidence at kimrey's link that Sam showed Lester how to call Dar the demon to make the crossroads deal regarding murdering his wife.  Now add to it feedback from an interview that Dar the demon is also in Soul Survivor.

Yep -- Sammy led that man to hell.  He set Lester up.  See that line there Sam?  It's two steps behind you... you crossed it.  Now Lester was a world-class LOSER and DOUCHEBAG extraordinaire.  But he hadn't murdered anyone.  He wasn't gong to hell until Sam showed him how to get there.  And I think THIS is the thing Crowley said to Dean ('there's one more thing you should know').  It now makes more sense why Dean went to get in Lester's car int he first place.  He was checking in on who Sam condemned.  Personally, I don't think Lester's soul was saved by Dean killing him.  Sam led him to the cliff and Lester jumped. He fully intended for his wife to die bloody.  He died with that in his heart.  So, I think Crowley gets him anyway.  But I suspect there's a difference between those who Crowley tempts to Hell and those that get there on their own.  Still, regardless of what ended up happening to Lester's soul -- Sam crossed a line there and Dean is going to bust his chops for it.

 

Is it Tuesday?  I need it to be Tuesday. 

Edited by SueB
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Pete Martell

Pete Martell

I dont remember that being the case in Sacrifice.  

 

I mostly meant the scene before Sam went into the church. There was a lot of wank as some Sam fans felt that Dean, and the show, were blaming him for what he did when he was soulless. I don't think that was the intention, but it's just that Dean still had a hard time letting his actions at that time go, even though he knew Sam wasn't responsible. I tend to wonder if that may happen here as well, with the tables now turned. 

catrox14

catrox14

I really do not remember Dean saying anything about what he did when he was soulless. I'd have to read the transcript but I thought he talked about the apocalypse and some girl in school. If Dean didn't say it then I can't wank it that is what Dean meant. Because Dean said when Rufus died all was forgiven and he only went back on that in Southern Comfort when he was under the spell of the coin, which I wish Dean had said it without the spell.

catrox14

catrox14

Holy.....crap. I just read that spec. That totally was Lester.  That changes a lot of things.

 

My spec is that Lester was put on Sam's trail by Crowley. He tells Lester that he'll make the deal to kill Mandy if Lester makes Sam be the one that actually summons a crossroads demon who ends up being Dar.  Crowley essentially is sending Sam on a goose chase and keeping him off Dean's trail and getting Sam to behave badly and questionably. And then he's setting up  Mandy to be Dean's target. But Dean does his own thing. It blows up the deal Crowley made.

 

OR  what if Crowley answered Sam's summoning after Dean opened his eyes. When Crowley goes to Sam, Dean flies the coop. At that point maybe Sam did make a deal with Crowley that he had to deliver Lester via a crossroads demon who is Dar.  But then Dean kills Lester blowing up the deal thus Crowley calls Sam to get Dean and he gives Crowley the Blade in exchange for Crowley not telling Dean they had made a deal.

 

Oh the possibilities.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Or Crowley sends Lester to Sam and Lester tells Sam he knows where Dean is as part of the deal for Mandy's life. And that further sends Dean off the actual tra I don't think Sam would have made that deal on his own. 

Aeryn13

Aeryn13

If Sam did broker a deal, it would make the "a Winchester, one of us" reference from the Premiere episode make more sense. At first, I thought it was just a clumsy phrasing because they wanted their "gotcha" moment where you thought the demon was talking to Dean but then the camera pans to Sam. If she is a Crossroads Demon (and we`re back to picking pretty girls in cocktail dresses, oh nostalgia), what Sam just did was akin to her work.

 

As for the blood curing, I hope it doesn`t work. Granted, any other actual cure could be even lamer and more offensive to me but I hate every single implication about this stupid blood curing. For one, it reminds me of the trials, otherwise-known as half a Season-long redo of the atrocity known as Suck Song. For another, Sam the Saint saving Dean the Sinner is so simplistically douchey, it would fit right in with the current crop of writers.

 

My dream scenario would still be having Dean be heavily involved in coming back from it himself. I know, pigs would fly before that. I had envisioned Sam would try to make impassioned speeches to Dean about how he, human Dean is/was worthy - and maybe referencing that Purge shit as an outright lie - but instead he just spouts Dean`s usual stuff on family values. An attitude Sam has majorly resented in the past. Heck, that he held even in contempt occassionally. Demon!Dean didn`t get a lobotomy, he remembers that. 

 

I`m not a fan of when Dean made those speeches but for good or ill (and lots of ill), he lived and breathed that crap. Sam has pretty much always espoused the opposite viewpoint. It`d be like Bill Gates trying to sell you Apple products. 

ILoveReading

ILoveReading

I think Crowley left orders that no demon was to answer Sam if he tried to summon one.  Then he over heard Lester in a bar, or something, talking about getting revenge on his cheating wife.  Sam, desperate, tells Lester about deals and instructs him how to summon a demon and make one.  Then he hides and captures Dar after Lester is done making the deal.

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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

Man, Lester should not go into Hell nor Heaven. Would any side seriously want someone so dumb? I can buy someone being convinced that demon deals are an actual thing. But why in all the world would you waste it on someone like a simple hitman job? There are easy human means to attain that. The only deal I remember like that was Bela and she was a child so that`s a wildly different scenario.

 

But, seriously, wish for talent, the reversal of death, fame. Stuff you can`t get from the next street corner. Something that should be worth it for the loss of a soul. Lester is probably the guy who would waste two of the three genie wishes on a cup of coffee and a donut to go with it.  

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DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

There were three tasks involved--killing the hellhound, rescuing a soul from the lamest Hell ever and curing a demon (which is about the stupidest thing ever, IMO). Sam completed the first two and was well on his way to finish the last one. However, one has to speak an Enochian spell after each task for it to be complete. In theory, Sam could cure 100 demons and never finish the last trial if he never says the words. Whether the show remembers this or not is a whole other question.

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SueB

SueB

  • Author
(edited)

ILoveReading - I think you are spot on. I think Crowley kept the demons away from Sam (suggested in "Black") and this was how he tried to make contact.  I suspect we are going to see him really lose control with Dar. What I don't know is if the "deal" is set once she kisses Lester (we're gonna see that people, I just know it) or if she has to report back into hell.

 

No Will To Resist - I agree with DittyDotDot, the Enochian is the key to closing the gates of Hell. But if you are not sure if Dean is safe -- or if you don't want a repeat where hell-bound souls are floating around in the veil like the heaven-bound ones appear to be ..... then maybe you don't seal the deal with Enochian chanting. IDK.  Also, we haven't seen any indicators that Sam suddenly goes glow-arms again.  That maybe a required sacrifice. Sam may have physically changed so much since the first two trials that somehow this might not count.

 

 

Complete different topic: Who expects Hannah to give her grace to Cas as she lays dying after getting wounded?   Me! That's who. 

Edited by SueB
AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

(edited)

I really do not remember Dean saying anything about what he did when he was soulless. I'd have to read the transcript but I thought he talked about the apocalypse and some girl in school. If Dean didn't say it then I can't wank it that is what Dean meant. Because Dean said when Rufus died all was forgiven and he only went back on that in Southern Comfort when he was under the spell of the coin, which I wish Dean had said it without the spell.

 

Dean didn't mention the things Sam did when he was soulless. The confusion on what Dean blamed Sam for came from an even weirder aspect of the statement from Dean which didn't even make much sense... which is probably why you don't remember it.

 

For clarity. Sam asked about what to say when confessing because it had been so long since he had confessed, Dean offered to give suggestions, Sam said okay, so Dean said... (from the "Sacrifice" transcript; emphasis mine to highlight the source of the confusion): "All right. Well, I'm just spit-balling here, but if I were you, uh... Ruby, killing Lilith, letting Lucifer out, losing your soul, not looking for me when I went to Purgatory..." Dean later added "for starters" and then mentioned the girl from 6th grade.

 

So it sort of seemed that Dean somehow blamed Sam not exactly for what he did while soulless, but for actually losing his soul... which makes almost no sense, because unless Dean is blaming Sam for the actual act of taking Lucifer with him - which Sam did do and was his "fault" - as being the reason he came back soulless, Sam being soulless was Castiel's mistake, and Cas's not confessing to his potential mistake is what made it worse. So why would Sam have to ask for forgiveness for losing his soul?

 

So that bit of weirdness is generally where the confusion on exactly what Dean blames Sam for comes from - and might in some way explain a little why Sam is annoyed that Dean seemed to trust Castiel so much when maybe Dean blames Sam for things Castiel did or conveniently seems to forget what Castiel did. Because upon hearing what Dean said there, Sam's "Thank you" was a both a bit sarcastic and wounded, in my opinion.

 

So it will be interesting to see exactly what all demon Dean says and/or implies is Sam's fault this coming episode. If regular Dean's blame logic is a little iffy (and this is not just a Dean thing. Many Supernatural characters have been cursed with it at various times), I'm guessing that Sam next episode is going to get a big dose of all sorts of nasty accusations, and it's going to be difficult for Sam to know which ones - if any - are going to be based on a bit of Dean's real feelings and which are just outright lies to manipulate.

 

Anyway, I hope the above helped to explain where the confusion comes from.

Edited by AwesomO4000
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7kstar

7kstar

Dean didn't mention the things Sam did when he was soulless. The confusion on what Dean blamed Sam for came from an even weirder aspect of the statement from Dean which didn't even make much sense... which is probably why you don't remember it.

 

For clarity. Sam asked about what to say when confessing because it had been so long since he had confessed, Dean offered to give suggestions, Sam said okay, so Dean said... (from the "Sacrifice" transcript; emphasis mine to highlight the source of the confusion): "All right. Well, I'm just spit-balling here, but if I were you, uh... Ruby, killing Lilith, letting Lucifer out, losing your soul, not looking for me when I went to Purgatory..." Dean later added "for starters" and then mentioned the girl from 6th grade.

 

So it sort of seemed that Dean somehow blamed Sam not exactly for what he did while soulless, but for actually losing his soul...

 

So that bit of weirdness is generally where the confusion on exactly what Dean blames Sam for comes from - and might in some way explain a little why Sam is annoyed that Dean seemed to trust Castiel so much when maybe Dean blames Sam for things Castiel did or conveniently seems to forget what Castiel did. Because upon hearing what Dean said there, Sam's "Thank you" was a both a bit sarcastic and wounded, in my opinion.

 

So it will be interesting to see exactly what all demon Dean says and/or implies is Sam's fault this coming episode. If regular Dean's blame logic is a little iffy (and this is not just a Dean thing. Many Supernatural characters have been cursed with it at various times), I'm guessing that Sam next episode is going to get a big dose of all sorts of nasty accusations, and it's going to be difficult for Sam to know which ones - if any - are going to be based on a bit of Dean's real feelings and which are just outright lies to manipulate.

 

Anyway, I hope the above helped to explain where the confusion comes from.

Soulless Sam did some pretty bad things and Dean blames himself for the things he did in hell.  The problem is the writers throw stuff out there but sometimes the way it lands isn't their real intention.  Plus for Dean, Soulless Sam cost Dean Lisa and Ben...maybe not directly but it did have a huge impact on Dean. Add all the times that Dean never really expressed what he thought and you get repressed anger, plus at this point in the game, he felt he should be the one doing the trials and he should be the one dying.  So I can see him getting in a few punches without really thinking about it or even realizing he did it.

 

But remember emotions are a funny thing, they AREN'T logical.  They are mixed up feelings and you feel more than one emotion and the problem when you are trying to sort them out, is figuring out why you feel all these emotions in the first place.  It's why strong actors never play one emotion, you realize that you are really playing several all at once and trying not to show it, it gives a deeper performance and is closer to what really happens.

 

How many times has someone gotten upset with you and you couldn't pinpoint what on earth you had said or done that had caused the miscommunication in the first place.  Since Dean and Sam never clear the air, it leads to more miscommunication and their way of dealing with it is to ignore the elephant in the room so to speak.

 

So I fully expect to see Demon Dean giving all the lines in a twisted way designed to take Sam down until Dean can escape.    If he can get Sam off course, he can get loose and you know that is his real goal to begin with.  Plus now he wants to give payback to Crowley as well.  I'm really excited about next week and scared at the same time.  Usually when I get to excited it is when I feel the most let down about a show, any show...so I'm trying to just go with the flow and be prepared for it to be a let down, but some of the scenes they have spoiled, well it makes me think I will like some of it anyway.  :)  Hopefully my ramblings makes sense.

No Will To Resist - I agree with DittyDotDot, the Enochian is the key to closing the gates of Hell. But if you are not sure if Dean is safe -- or if you don't want a repeat where hell-bound souls are floating around in the veil like the heaven-bound ones appear to be ..... then maybe you don't seal the deal with Enochian chanting. IDK.  Also, we haven't seen any indicators that Sam suddenly goes glow-arms again.  That maybe a required sacrifice. Sam may have physically changed so much since the first two trials that somehow this might not count.

 

Remember that a Priest cured a demon without doing the trails and Sam has been cured so, he is just trying to cure a demon.  Of course (play evil music)  Sam has demon blood in him so will this have an unexpected side effect?

 

I can see Hannah giving her grace to Cas, but what did Crowley have in his hands?   Was it part of Cas original grace, because taking another angel's grace will only lead him back to death eventually, anyway.  So do they want to cure Cas?? that is the million dollar question.

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ohjoy
Message added by ohjoy

Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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