Spoilers With Speculation

[SueB]

11 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

 

"That's a classic!" - Dean

So if the reaper  monitoring them is tied to the events of Advanced Thanatology, is this the episode where Dean gets killed by a red-headed witch?

I wonder. Since she said that she's been waiting for "this", it's possible that "this" is when Rowena kills Dean and Jessica either stops it or resurrects him?  Maybe she's there to warn him so he doesn't get killed?  Perhaps that's why Sam is alone with Rowena? 

Clearly Death (Billie) shows up to engage personally (based on pictures).  

On the clip:
- First I thought Sam was covering his privates but on second watch, I think he lowered his gun and was looking embarrassed.  Anyone else have an opinion on that?
- Dean & a VHS tape of hentai porn under the bed.  TMI!  The 3 day old cheeseburger for emergencies?  Is he hoarding food in his room every few days in case they get locked in?  Or is this just a 'midnight snack' emergency?  
- Was Sam more grossed out by the burger or the tentacle porn?

What I find impressive?  Dean remembers her name.  She said it when they first met, he gave his name and then blew her off.  A LOT happened that day.  And he remembered her name.  

So, theoretical sequence forming...
- Rowena calls Sam and says she's in trouble and needs his help and the phone cuts off.
- Sam & Dean ride to rescue as she's no longer answering.
- Jessica first tries to tell them Rowena is okay (bad cell phone signal) but the brothers don't buy it. She tells them it's a trap and she intends to kill them and Death doesn't want that to happen. 
- The brothers don't trust Jessica but decide to be cautious and see why Rowena would want them dead.... Because if someone is trying to kill you and sets a trap, it's better to spring the trap and get in front of the problem then run away from it.  If you run away from it, then they are still after you.  Best to try and get control of the battlefield. 
- Springing the trap doesn't work. Dean is killed straight away (because Rowena is no dummy and if you are going to try and hurt Sam, you HAVE to take out Dean first). She evil monologues about sorry for the betrayal but she has to kill scary-face Lucifer and starts going after his tatoo.
- Billie shows up and reigns in Rowena.
- Jessica and Dean show up (pic of Dean with blood on head) and the brothers come to some agreement with Rowena to help them with the grace-getting rather than getting killed by pissed off Sam & Dean, while helping her put Luci back in the cage (or dead... Rowena's actual plan).  

So, Dean IS killed by a red-haired witch.  That was the "right" death.  And Billie can't get (via Jessica) Dean to avoid it so she has to intervene.  That pisses her off even more. Because making a choice that avoids getting killed is less disturbing to the natural order than flat-out resurrecting Dean? Again. We also get Rowena's involvement in the finale looped in.

Which brings me to... 

On 4/17/2018 at 9:53 PM, BoxManLocke said:

I fail to see how a twist involving Dean (or Sam) can have any sort of impact outside of basic shock value because there hasn't been any buildup towards anything.

Of course people aren't going to be excited. The emotional stakes just aren't there. Dean talked to Billie 14 episodes ago (!) and we've seen Michael a couple of times. Those are the two leads. The "work" Dabb and co have done so far. That'd be laughable if it wasn't so sad.

I guess the lack of foundation for a twist that is a logical conclusion for Dean's or Sam's arcs gives the writers complete freedom to do anything and drives speculation for the people who still give a shit. That's nice for them.

I really wish they'd give me a reason to care, though. I'm not asking for a groundbreaking season of TV. Just a cohesive story with interesting characters, that's revolving around Sam and Dean and how they're evolving as characters. I want my Supernatural back.

 

5 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Those are the rules in this universe. no telling if it would be the same for AW Michael.

is it really anymore outlandish speculation than any other spec nor the actual LOLcanon writing these days? I argue it is not.ymmv

This "they have no plan" is a very common statement. And LOL!Canon is a board 'go-to'.  I find these two statements kinda kissing cousins to the general idea of 'they are making it up as they go along'.  Please note: I'm not picking on you @catrox14 or @BoxManLocke !! I swear.  You both just had handy references to a common theme .... and on this page.  But prepping for this episode, I'd say they've more than primed the pump for both this episode the "twist" at the end from a canon and plot perspective. See TL;DR for summary. 

By now, IMO, we have 1) the build-up for THIS episode (which is a key to the finale), 2) a season's worth of buildup for the finale, and 3) canon established for the finale.

- EP 1-4 was the buildup for Dean being ready to die. (Season arc plot and setup for EP5)
- EP 5, he said he didn't "Believe" anymore.  Specifically he didn't believe that hits they take are worth it because they help make the world a better place.  We also get the red-headed witch death, Jessica intro, and 'you're important. you have work to do' declaration. (Season arc plot and set-up for THIS episode)
- EP 7, we learn about the spell to get across the rift. And a witch episode with a specific reminder about Rowena. (Canon set-up which leverages existing canon about tablets, prophets, the power of Archangels, etc..., Set up for THIS episode.).
- EP 9, we have desperate Dean threatening Kaia (Season arc plot... which really has been heavy into Dean's character arc) 
- Ep 12, we have Rowena's return (Set up for THIS episode).
- EP 13, specific spell info & Gabriel return (canon establishment)
- EP 15, Dean tells us he has "Faith".  I think that's a call back to EP5 when he said he didn't 'Believe' anymore. (nice continuity moment). The shift is onto Sam's depression since they didn't rescue Mary, Jack is now lost, and Kaia is dead.  (Season arc plot -- this is the feint (IMO) that Dean is recovering from is desperation -- but he hasn't really)
- EP18, First attempt at rescue & desperate Dean is back (Season arc plot)
- EP 19, this one ... IMO will likely set up 'Winchester's X' (ala Ocean's 11) for the 'caper' to get the grace & some additional clues from what Death (Billie) needs done by the boys -- something world saving (Payoff for THIS episode set up, Season long arc, some good Sam & Dean character bits, canon set-up) 
EP 20: Get Gabriel on Team
EP 21: Get Lucifer on Team (or take his grace)
EP 22: Pull off the caper.... which has results in a problem
EP 23:  Season finale where the problem is resolved by a desperate Dean 'stepping up' and letting someone end AU Michael

Which will have resulted in:

 Series-level Twist: Dean makes a desperate move and agrees to let someone/thing use him as a vessel (thus Jensen playing a different character).  We've taken that as a given since Paleyfest.  But those are not spoiled have not -- hence our putting things under spoiler tags in last week's episode thread as we let this knowledge bleed in there.  So to the un-spoiled it'll be a HUGE twist for Dean to agree and get possessed.  

Season-level Twist: They don't resolve the new circumstance (AU/Jack's existence) in one season, like they typically do.  This has always been a two-season plan.  Dabb has been gambling all along (or at least since November).  Which is why it feels so messy.  We are just half-way thru the two act play. Summer is intermission.   

To me, this is classic Dabb.  Play a long game.  Individual episode's have little bits contributing to the season-long plan. And Singer probably encourage him to go for two years (or initiated it the idea - because Singer has no f*cks to give and has always known they had the CW over the barrel on S14 -- which is why there was a little more sweating the longer the CW held out before announcing the season).

Not discussed:
EP 6: set-up EP 9 (the plot complication of Jack goes missing too)
EP 8: Foreshadowing caper theme, Dean's upswing continues with a save of a Charlie substitute, Sam's depression kicks in
EP 17: Foreshadowing Dean as a vessel
EP 10: Wayward pilot
EP 11: Stretched out Wayward pilot plus Sam depression deepens dramatically (which I think will factor into the finale)
EP 16: Scoobynatural - got Ocean's pomegranate for the spell but otherwise pure hi-concept episode

Bottom Line for the TL;DR: I see the setup for the finale (plot, character, canon) as clear as day.  If there's a problem with the way Dabb helms the ship, it's that he plays the long game and individual episodes have more set-up than resolution. 

Edited April 19, 2018 by SueB

[AwesomO4000]

5 hours ago, SueB said:

She evil monologues about sorry for the betrayal but she has to kill scary-face Lucifer and starts going after his tatoo.

Why would she need to do that in terms of Lucifer though? That's only a demon possession tattoo. Would she be planning to have Sam possessed by a demon? And how would that help with killing Lucifer? I'm confused.

I also hope Sam's tattoo doesn't get messed up again.

4 hours ago, SueB said:

If there's a problem with the way Dabb helms the ship, it's that he plays the long game and individual episodes have more set-up than resolution. 

Took my response to the bitter spoilers thread just in case.

[Bobcatkitten]

Given all the talk of Michael I rewatched the end of Season 5. Swan Song still makes me tear up. I also thought these words would be prophetic in weeks to come:

 

Endings are hard. 
Any chapped-ass monkey with a keyboard can poop out a beginning, but endings are impossible. You try to tie up every loose end, but you never can. The fans are always gonna bitch. There's always gonna be holes. And since it's the ending, it's all supposed to add up to something. I'm telling you, they're a raging pain in the ass. 

[Aeryn13]

I found that speech incredibly whiny in its meta-ness. "Wah wah, I might get criticized for my writing." It was pretty clear that 5.22 would not be popular with at least one specific group. Doesn`t mean the writer gets to pre-emptively whine about it. Fans still have it worse, they have - in the case of those who hated it - live with a pivotal episode that sucked for them. I didn`t want to have my most favourite episode of the show, Lazarus Rising, on some level ruined for me either but tough luck, it happened.

Back then, I had expectations, though that I don`t have anymore. So if Dean is indeed gonna be Michael and a lot of the writing for it is subpar, it can still be okay. I mean, the lack of gross eating and dumb jokes alone makes it worth it for me. And I genuinely mean that, it`s a good trade-off in my book. 

Maybe the next episode will provide a clue as to the time travel outfit.   

[ILoveReading]

 

Inside the episode.

[catrox14]

38 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

found that speech incredibly whiny in its meta-ness. "Wah wah, I might get criticized for my writing." It was pretty clear that 5.22 would not be popular with at least one specific group. Doesn`t mean the writer gets to pre-emptively whine about it. Fans still have it worse, they have - in the case of those who hated it - live with a pivotal episode that sucked for them. I didn`t want to have my most favourite episode of the show, Lazarus Rising, on some level ruined for me either but tough luck, it happened.

This is how I always felt about that writing. I never found it funny or clever. But more of "well if you don't like it, it's because you just don't get it". 

 

24 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

 

Inside the episode.

Funeralia generally means  things associated with death or the rites of passage around death.  Foreshadowing for Death!Dean??

[Aeryn13]

So, they want Rowena`s help in tracking Gabriel? Okay. She sounds nice enough to them on the phone, even though she says no. So why do things take a turn for the worse later? I don`t even think their request would be anything she would particularly be disinclined to help them with if need be.

And why does Dean say the world is in danger? Does he refer to the planned invasion from AU!Michael? Because if so, they really should have referenced this in the last episode. Dean and Ketch should have overheard or seen something that makes them think the threat has gotten more imminent. 

Not making a point of that just brings it all back to Mary and Jack. And sorry, that has nothing to do with the world being in danger. It`s the Winchester`s personal little pet project. Which Rowena is under no obligation to help them with. 

One thing I will say, calling them "my three little musketeers" is really cute. With the kiss to top it off. 

Edited April 19, 2018 by Aeryn13

[Jonesy]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

I found that speech incredibly whiny in its meta-ness. "Wah wah, I might get criticized for my writing." It was pretty clear that 5.22 would not be popular with at least one specific group. Doesn`t mean the writer gets to pre-emptively whine about it. Fans still have it worse, they have - in the case of those who hated it - live with a pivotal episode that sucked for them. I didn`t want to have my most favourite episode of the show, Lazarus Rising, on some level ruined for me either but tough luck, it happened.

Back then, I had expectations, though that I don`t have anymore. So if Dean is indeed gonna be Michael and a lot of the writing for it is subpar, it can still be okay. I mean, the lack of gross eating and dumb jokes alone makes it worth it for me. And I genuinely mean that, it`s a good trade-off in my book. 

Maybe the next episode will provide a clue as to the time travel outfit.   

I absolutely loved Kripke's writing for Chuck in that Scene.

13 hours ago, SueB said:

I wonder. Since she said that she's been waiting for "this", it's possible that "this" is when Rowena kills Dean and Jessica either stops it or resurrects him?  Maybe she's there to warn him so he doesn't get killed?  Perhaps that's why Sam is alone with Rowena? 

Clearly Death (Billie) shows up to engage personally (based on pictures).  

On the clip:
- First I thought Sam was covering his privates but on second watch, I think he lowered his gun and was looking embarrassed.  Anyone else have an opinion on that?
- Dean & a VHS tape of hentai porn under the bed.  TMI!  The 3 day old cheeseburger for emergencies?  Is he hoarding food in his room every few days in case they get locked in?  Or is this just a 'midnight snack' emergency?  
- Was Sam more grossed out by the burger or the tentacle porn?

What I find impressive?  Dean remembers her name.  She said it when they first met, he gave his name and then blew her off.  A LOT happened that day.  And he remembered her name.  

So, theoretical sequence forming...
- Rowena calls Sam and says she's in trouble and needs his help and the phone cuts off.
- Sam & Dean ride to rescue as she's no longer answering.
- Jessica first tries to tell them Rowena is okay (bad cell phone signal) but the brothers don't buy it. She tells them it's a trap and she intends to kill them and Death doesn't want that to happen. 
- The brothers don't trust Jessica but decide to be cautious and see why Rowena would want them dead.... Because if someone is trying to kill you and sets a trap, it's better to spring the trap and get in front of the problem then run away from it.  If you run away from it, then they are still after you.  Best to try and get control of the battlefield. 
- Springing the trap doesn't work. Dean is killed straight away (because Rowena is no dummy and if you are going to try and hurt Sam, you HAVE to take out Dean first). She evil monologues about sorry for the betrayal but she has to kill scary-face Lucifer and starts going after his tatoo.
- Billie shows up and reigns in Rowena.
- Jessica and Dean show up (pic of Dean with blood on head) and the brothers come to some agreement with Rowena to help them with the grace-getting rather than getting killed by pissed off Sam & Dean, while helping her put Luci back in the cage (or dead... Rowena's actual plan).  

So, Dean IS killed by a red-haired witch.  That was the "right" death.  And Billie can't get (via Jessica) Dean to avoid it so she has to intervene.  That pisses her off even more. Because making a choice that avoids getting killed is less disturbing to the natural order than flat-out resurrecting Dean? Again. We also get Rowena's involvement in the finale looped in.

Which brings me to... 

 

This "they have no plan" is a very common statement. And LOL!Canon is a board 'go-to'.  I find these two statements kinda kissing cousins to the general idea of 'they are making it up as they go along'.  Please note: I'm not picking on you @catrox14 or @BoxManLocke !! I swear.  You both just had handy references to a common theme .... and on this page.  But prepping for this episode, I'd say they've more than primed the pump for both this episode the "twist" at the end from a canon and plot perspective. See TL;DR for summary. 

By now, IMO, we have 1) the build-up for THIS episode (which is a key to the finale), 2) a season's worth of buildup for the finale, and 3) canon established for the finale.

- EP 1-4 was the buildup for Dean being ready to die. (Season arc plot and setup for EP5)
- EP 5, he said he didn't "Believe" anymore.  Specifically he didn't believe that hits they take are worth it because they help make the world a better place.  We also get the red-headed witch death, Jessica intro, and 'you're important. you have work to do' declaration. (Season arc plot and set-up for THIS episode)
- EP 7, we learn about the spell to get across the rift. And a witch episode with a specific reminder about Rowena. (Canon set-up which leverages existing canon about tablets, prophets, the power of Archangels, etc..., Set up for THIS episode.).
- EP 9, we have desperate Dean threatening Kaia (Season arc plot... which really has been heavy into Dean's character arc) 
- Ep 12, we have Rowena's return (Set up for THIS episode).
- EP 13, specific spell info & Gabriel return (canon establishment)
- EP 15, Dean tells us he has "Faith".  I think that's a call back to EP5 when he said he didn't 'Believe' anymore. (nice continuity moment). The shift is onto Sam's depression since they didn't rescue Mary, Jack is now lost, and Kaia is dead.  (Season arc plot -- this is the feint (IMO) that Dean is recovering from is desperation -- but he hasn't really)
- EP18, First attempt at rescue & desperate Dean is back (Season arc plot)
- EP 19, this one ... IMO will likely set up 'Winchester's X' (ala Ocean's 11) for the 'caper' to get the grace & some additional clues from what Death (Billie) needs done by the boys -- something world saving (Payoff for THIS episode set up, Season long arc, some good Sam & Dean character bits, canon set-up) 
EP 20: Get Gabriel on Team
EP 21: Get Lucifer on Team (or take his grace)
EP 22: Pull off the caper.... which has results in a problem
EP 23:  Season finale where the problem is resolved by a desperate Dean 'stepping up' and letting someone end AU Michael

Which will have resulted in:

 Series-level Twist: Dean makes a desperate move and agrees to let someone/thing use him as a vessel (thus Jensen playing a different character).  We've taken that as a given since Paleyfest.  But those are not spoiled have not -- hence our putting things under spoiler tags in last week's episode thread as we let this knowledge bleed in there.  So to the un-spoiled it'll be a HUGE twist for Dean to agree and get possessed.  

Season-level Twist: They don't resolve the new circumstance (AU/Jack's existence) in one season, like they typically do.  This has always been a two-season plan.  Dabb has been gambling all along (or at least since November).  Which is why it feels so messy.  We are just half-way thru the two act play. Summer is intermission.   

To me, this is classic Dabb.  Play a long game.  Individual episode's have little bits contributing to the season-long plan. And Singer probably encourage him to go for two years (or initiated it the idea - because Singer has no f*cks to give and has always known they had the CW over the barrel on S14 -- which is why there was a little more sweating the longer the CW held out before announcing the season).

Not discussed:
EP 6: set-up EP 9 (the plot complication of Jack goes missing too)
EP 8: Foreshadowing caper theme, Dean's upswing continues with a save of a Charlie substitute, Sam's depression kicks in
EP 17: Foreshadowing Dean as a vessel
EP 10: Wayward pilot
EP 11: Stretched out Wayward pilot plus Sam depression deepens dramatically (which I think will factor into the finale)
EP 16: Scoobynatural - got Ocean's pomegranate for the spell but otherwise pure hi-concept episode

Bottom Line for the TL;DR: I see the setup for the finale (plot, character, canon) as clear as day.  If there's a problem with the way Dabb helms the ship, it's that he plays the long game and individual episodes have more set-up than resolution. 

 

Without getting into a tit for tat argument about this--will say I largely agree with Sue and how she detailed this that things have been setup and ready for payoff.  Not perfect writing but it gets it done.

Edited April 19, 2018 by Jakes

[ILoveReading]

5 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

And why does Dean say the world is in danger? Does he refer to the planned invasion from AU!Michael? Because if so, they really should have referenced this in the last episode. Dean and Ketch should have overheard or seen something that makes them think the threat has gotten more imminent. 

Its like Yockey is working from cliff notes about the season, "Michael is a threat" rather than actually knowing what happened in the last episode. 

According to Ruth we're supposed to see how she's coping with Crowley's death.  I've seen speculation that she is trying to bring back Crowley.  If they did that it would mean Rowena is fighting harder for Crowely (who I've never felt she liked all that much) than Mary did for her own sons.

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Maybe the next episode will provide a clue as to the time travel outfit.   

I'm thinking we'll get some clues, but not sure that they will explain the 20's outfit(which I'm in love with, btw) yet.

"Death" is definitely on the menu tonight, though, and I do recall a spoiler that mentioned that whatever Rowena does(though not sure if it will happen in this episode; still...time is running out on this season...) will somehow affect one of the brothers going forward(?). I can't remember the exact wording...

[catrox14]

I respect those that think Dabb is written  some grand plan. I will just say that  Singer said they never have a plan and   when they do something big like angels  falling or Demon Dean it's for  the  drama and the shock value and then have to write their way out of it. 

I'm curious how that is  reconciled  when, the EP who has been there the longest saying something that is in direct opposition to the notion of long term plans. 

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. They have some plans and they have some other things that are just done for the sake of drama. And some plans they abandon midstream for whatever reasons and often based on some amount of feedback.

I personally  don't believe that Michel Dean was set unlike others,Ani know all the rationales  everyone has for MicaeDea they lprovided previously. I just don't buy into it.

I don't believe Death Dean was either. I do think Lucifer coming back was the only thing Dabb planned and did. I think they planned a long time for Wayward Sisters. Because it's someone's pet project I. e.Berens which is fine but IMO it messed up the pacing of s13. u

I do think the writers can and will try to tie up things or loose ends AFTER THE FACT  like 12.22 with Dean, but I don't believe they had it set up for the beginning of s12 and Jensen comments  imply that as well.

And unless DABB  is gonna pull some flash backs a la BBC Sherlock, Iwe'll this ain't Sherlock and that for works for a detectivenot this show. IMO and YMMV. ,

ETA. SORRY FOR the wonky typing. I am posting mobile and it hates me.

[ILoveReading]

5 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

"Death" is definitely on the menu tonight, though, and I do recall a spoiler that mentioned that whatever Rowena does(though not sure if it will happen in this episode; still...time is running out on this season...) will somehow affect one of the brothers going forward(?). I can't remember the exact wording...

I believe that is episode 21, where Sam is supposed to get beat up.  I think at the end of episode 20, they're going to get grace from Gabriel, and it will be Sam's turn to go into the AU.  I'm guessing Lucifer will somehow hitch a ride and things go badly.  Dean ends up going in for a rescue mission. 

[Aeryn13]

Doesn`t one of the upcoming synopsis also say something about Jack screwing up somehow due to hubris? I kinda hope it is he who inadvertently paves the way for the AU!Michael invasion. Simply because every other character would get dragged for it but being the nougat baby Jack has enough plot armour to wither some stupid screw-ups. 

[gonzosgirrl]

Dabbs weekly Tweet.

 

8 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I believe that is episode 21, where Sam is supposed to get beat up.  I think at the end of episode 20, they're going to get grace from Gabriel, and it will be Sam's turn to go into the AU.  I'm guessing Lucifer will somehow hitch a ride and things go badly.  Dean ends up going in for a rescue mission. 

Yeah, I would bet whatever Rowena's doing to/with Sam that involves tattoo being exposed is the 'going forward' part.

[Myrelle]

18 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I believe that is episode 21, where Sam is supposed to get beat up.  I think at the end of episode 20, they're going to get grace from Gabriel, and it will be Sam's turn to go into the AU.  I'm guessing Lucifer will somehow hitch a ride and things go badly.  Dean ends up going in for a rescue mission. 

Oh, so maybe it's nothing to do with the finale then, other than possibly being more motivation for the Dean/? character to come into being.

Hmmmmmmmm...

[gonzosgirrl]

Yockey's Tweet

 

And Ruthie's. I don't think I've ever seen her so excited/emotional over an episode. It's either very, very good for Rowena, or very, very bad. I can't imagine they'd kill her off again, but who knows?

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Dabbs weekly Tweet.

 

Yeah, I would bet whatever Rowena's doing to/with Sam that involves tattoo being exposed is the 'going forward' part.

Those are the lyrics from Don't Fear the Reaper. Are they trying to go all the way back to "Faith" when Dean was first supposed to die. HMMMMMM

I don't like this snarky reaper. She seemed cool in AT but not here. Why is she being such an ass to them? Is she mad that she was assigned to them?

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Yockey's Tweet

 

And Ruthie's. I don't think I've ever seen her so excited/emotional over an episode. It's either very, very good for Rowena, or very, very bad. I can't imagine they'd kill her off again, but who knows?

I fully believe they would kill her again. And maybe she's proud of her performance in that she's at least maybe gonna get a good death scene vs the crap from s12.  I hope Rowena gets to at least punch Lucifer for what he did to her.

[Aeryn13]

The synopsis for episode 21:

Quote

OFFICIAL SYNOPSIS:  THE LONG JOURNEY HOME – Sam (Jared Padalecki), Dean (Jensen Ackles), Castiel (Misha Collins) and Gabriel (guest star Richard Speight, Jr.) must work together if they have any hope of bringing Mary (guest star Samantha Smith) and Jack (Alexander Calvert) home. Meanwhile, Rowena’s (guest star Ruth Connell) encounter with Lucifer (Mark Pellegrino) may alter the outcome of the journey for one of our heroes. Phil Sgriccia directed the episode written by Robert Berens (#1321). Original airdate 5/3/2018.

lists her as a guest star again. Apparently she will have an encounter with Lucifer there and this will alter the journey of one guy. So maybe not what happens tonigh.

I`m guessing she has a plan but Billie stops her so in ep 21 she tries something else. 

Sort of like Dean went to the AU, didn`t work out and they will try again in ep 20/21.  

[ahrtee]

Ruth ♛✔@RuthieConnell

I’m gonna say one thing about filming tonight’s #Funeralia - #ItMeantEverything @SleepyPanda76 @NLopezCorrado @andrewdabb @cw_spn @jarpad @JensenAckles @_LisaBerry #sograteful can’t wait for y’all to see it! #SPNFamily @robertberens

12:55 PM - Apr 19, 2018

 

What I love about Ruthie's tweet? Is that she's using "y'all".  Do you think the Texas boys corrupted her? :)

[Myrelle]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

The synopsis for episode 21:

lists her as a guest star again. Apparently she will have an encounter with Lucifer there and this will alter the journey of one guy. So maybe not what happens tonigh.

I`m guessing she has a plan but Billie stops her so in ep 21 she tries something else. 

Sort of like Dean went to the AU, didn`t work out and they will try again in ep 20/21.  

Yes, that was the spoiler.

Still not sure of the necessity of Billie AND Jessica(she seemed very incidental, and little more than that, in Advanced Thanatology) in this one, but I guess we'll find out in a few hours. 

[Castiels Cat]

17 hours ago, SueB said:

I wonder. Since she said that she's been waiting for "this", it's possible that "this" is when Rowena kills Dean and Jessica either stops it or resurrects him?  Maybe she's there to warn him so he doesn't get killed?  Perhaps that's why Sam is alone with Rowena? 

Clearly Death (Billie) shows up to engage personally (based on pictures).  

On the clip:
- First I thought Sam was covering his privates but on second watch, I think he lowered his gun and was looking embarrassed.  Anyone else have an opinion on that?
- Dean & a VHS tape of hentai porn under the bed.  TMI!  The 3 day old cheeseburger for emergencies?  Is he hoarding food in his room every few days in case they get locked in?  Or is this just a 'midnight snack' emergency?  
- Was Sam more grossed out by the burger or the tentacle porn?

What I find impressive?  Dean remembers her name.  She said it when they first met, he gave his name and then blew her off.  A LOT happened that day.  And he remembered her name.  

So, theoretical sequence forming...
- Rowena calls Sam and says she's in trouble and needs his help and the phone cuts off.
- Sam & Dean ride to rescue as she's no longer answering.
- Jessica first tries to tell them Rowena is okay (bad cell phone signal) but the brothers don't buy it. She tells them it's a trap and she intends to kill them and Death doesn't want that to happen. 
- The brothers don't trust Jessica but decide to be cautious and see why Rowena would want them dead.... Because if someone is trying to kill you and sets a trap, it's better to spring the trap and get in front of the problem then run away from it.  If you run away from it, then they are still after you.  Best to try and get control of the battlefield. 
- Springing the trap doesn't work. Dean is killed straight away (because Rowena is no dummy and if you are going to try and hurt Sam, you HAVE to take out Dean first). She evil monologues about sorry for the betrayal but she has to kill scary-face Lucifer and starts going after his tatoo.
- Billie shows up and reigns in Rowena.
- Jessica and Dean show up (pic of Dean with blood on head) and the brothers come to some agreement with Rowena to help them with the grace-getting rather than getting killed by pissed off Sam & Dean, while helping her put Luci back in the cage (or dead... Rowena's actual plan).  

So, Dean IS killed by a red-haired witch.  That was the "right" death.  And Billie can't get (via Jessica) Dean to avoid it so she has to intervene.  That pisses her off even more. Because making a choice that avoids getting killed is less disturbing to the natural order than flat-out resurrecting Dean? Again. We also get Rowena's involvement in the finale looped in.

Which brings me to... 

 

This "they have no plan" is a very common statement. And LOL!Canon is a board 'go-to'.  I find these two statements kinda kissing cousins to the general idea of 'they are making it up as they go along'.  Please note: I'm not picking on you @catrox14 or @BoxManLocke !! I swear.  You both just had handy references to a common theme .... and on this page.  But prepping for this episode, I'd say they've more than primed the pump for both this episode the "twist" at the end from a canon and plot perspective. See TL;DR for summary. 

By now, IMO, we have 1) the build-up for THIS episode (which is a key to the finale), 2) a season's worth of buildup for the finale, and 3) canon established for the finale.

- EP 1-4 was the buildup for Dean being ready to die. (Season arc plot and setup for EP5)
- EP 5, he said he didn't "Believe" anymore.  Specifically he didn't believe that hits they take are worth it because they help make the world a better place.  We also get the red-headed witch death, Jessica intro, and 'you're important. you have work to do' declaration. (Season arc plot and set-up for THIS episode)
- EP 7, we learn about the spell to get across the rift. And a witch episode with a specific reminder about Rowena. (Canon set-up which leverages existing canon about tablets, prophets, the power of Archangels, etc..., Set up for THIS episode.).
- EP 9, we have desperate Dean threatening Kaia (Season arc plot... which really has been heavy into Dean's character arc) 
- Ep 12, we have Rowena's return (Set up for THIS episode).
- EP 13, specific spell info & Gabriel return (canon establishment)
- EP 15, Dean tells us he has "Faith".  I think that's a call back to EP5 when he said he didn't 'Believe' anymore. (nice continuity moment). The shift is onto Sam's depression since they didn't rescue Mary, Jack is now lost, and Kaia is dead.  (Season arc plot -- this is the feint (IMO) that Dean is recovering from is desperation -- but he hasn't really)
- EP18, First attempt at rescue & desperate Dean is back (Season arc plot)
- EP 19, this one ... IMO will likely set up 'Winchester's X' (ala Ocean's 11) for the 'caper' to get the grace & some additional clues from what Death (Billie) needs done by the boys -- something world saving (Payoff for THIS episode set up, Season long arc, some good Sam & Dean character bits, canon set-up) 
EP 20: Get Gabriel on Team
EP 21: Get Lucifer on Team (or take his grace)
EP 22: Pull off the caper.... which has results in a problem
EP 23:  Season finale where the problem is resolved by a desperate Dean 'stepping up' and letting someone end AU Michael

Which will have resulted in:

 Series-level Twist: Dean makes a desperate move and agrees to let someone/thing use him as a vessel (thus Jensen playing a different character).  We've taken that as a given since Paleyfest.  But those are not spoiled have not -- hence our putting things under spoiler tags in last week's episode thread as we let this knowledge bleed in there.  So to the un-spoiled it'll be a HUGE twist for Dean to agree and get possessed.  

Season-level Twist: They don't resolve the new circumstance (AU/Jack's existence) in one season, like they typically do.  This has always been a two-season plan.  Dabb has been gambling all along (or at least since November).  Which is why it feels so messy.  We are just half-way thru the two act play. Summer is intermission.   

To me, this is classic Dabb.  Play a long game.  Individual episode's have little bits contributing to the season-long plan. And Singer probably encourage him to go for two years (or initiated it the idea - because Singer has no f*cks to give and has always known they had the CW over the barrel on S14 -- which is why there was a little more sweating the longer the CW held out before announcing the season).

Not discussed:
EP 6: set-up EP 9 (the plot complication of Jack goes missing too)
EP 8: Foreshadowing caper theme, Dean's upswing continues with a save of a Charlie substitute, Sam's depression kicks in
EP 17: Foreshadowing Dean as a vessel
EP 10: Wayward pilot
EP 11: Stretched out Wayward pilot plus Sam depression deepens dramatically (which I think will factor into the finale)
EP 16: Scoobynatural - got Ocean's pomegranate for the spell but otherwise pure hi-concept episode

Bottom Line for the TL;DR: I see the setup for the finale (plot, character, canon) as clear as day.  If there's a problem with the way Dabb helms the ship, it's that he plays the long game and individual episodes have more set-up than resolution. 

This is is a nice discussion.  I agree that they have set things up beautifully over 2 seasons leading me to cry Apocalypse and Dean!Michael way before Fetus Jack opened that sliver of rift.

I would argue that Dean's impetus for saying yes to Michael, is his tragic flaw, his self sacrifice for family which we have seen again and again either.  It rears itself when he fears he has lost them either in a let witch effort to save them or because he believes he has lost them forever and he is so broken and list he believes that the only goid that can come from his life will be a self sacrifice move for one last win.

And my God have the set this up beautifully.  I could see this was going to play out as soon as I saw Jensen's face as he gazed upon Mary for the first time and his angst every time he feared he might lose her; and as they immediately began mining the strains of the she's Apocalyptic tropes, subtly at first, substituting Mary in for Sam.

Yes I watched it all play out like Cassandra at Troy.

And you are absolutely right.  They have been hitting gold with Dean's arc this season repeatedly.  I was amazed so few people got how important an episode Advanced Thanatology was.  For me it was 100% we were heading to Dean!Michael.  It was the Dean!Michael dry run Dean at the end of his rope sacrificing himself to save lives run m.o.

Then Amael spells out in text a quid pro quo arrangement in which a desperate human saved loved one via deal with angel.

Reminder of Dean being righteous man. Dean being chosen as a vessel. Dean sacrificing himself repeating throughout the season. 

And yeah. Maybe they will get another archangel's grace.  And maybe Mary will reduce to come back. Which leads us  back to Dean losing his loved one and wanting to sacrifice himself to take out a big bad which is how he ended up with the Mark of Cain.  Dean's tragic flaw is,a,two edged sword.

I absolutely agree with you.  I do the math a bit differently which is why I enjoy your posts. That is to say I do the more classic version... but yeah...

They have set this up brilliantly.

I do believe in lol canon.

Asmodeus being able to inject archangel grace is lol canon.

Dean saying yes to Michael this time around is not. Dean being absolutely devastated by his mother's loss is not. The writing for Mary is not.

The writing leading up to this new Apocalypse and leading up to Dean saying yes to Michael is not.  This has been brilliant.  

I do not think the current team are the best writers but they have been outstanding at this.

[ILoveReading]

The title of the episode is “Exodus” and you can find some new spoilers below!

HITCHING A RIDE – Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) devise a plan that will save innocent lives. Meanwhile, Jack (Alexander Calvert) continues to wrestle with the consequences of his decisions. Thomas J. Wright directed the episode written by Eugenie Ross-Leming & Brad Buckner (#1322).  Original airdate 5/10/2018.

http://www.ksitetv.com/supernatural/supernatural-spoilers-exodus/175884/

[SueB]

...So a massive church (cathedral?) is in the last episode    Thanks Jose!

[ILoveReading]

http://www.thetvaddict.com/2018/04/20/supernatural-photos-s13e20-unfinished-business/

Promo pics for episode 20.

The guy in picture 2 with the thigh holster is giving me a Deanish vibe and the guy with Kevin in picture 6 is giving me a Sam vibe.  The jacket the guy is wearing in picture 6 seems to be wearing a very similar to the one in this pic that Jared tweeted. 

[catrox14]

21 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

I was amazed so few people got how important an episode Advanced Thanatology was.

I think you are selling folks way short on this. Assuming you mean here, I think if you read that thread you'll see by and large the opinion it was highly meaningful for Dean. Where company parts is how folks interpret that significance, not that they didn't get it was significant in a major way.

20 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

The guy in picture 2 with the thigh holster is giving me a Deanish vibe

I AM HIGHLY OFFENDED by that picture. UGH. Seriously. That bugs the crap out of me. 

And this just reinforces my opinion they are absolutely lifting from THE END verse. GRRRRRR

[gonzosgirrl]

I am not even embarrassed to say IDK what the article says or the other pictures are when we get Dean in a soft-looking, brown shirt and black tee. I'll just stare at this a while.

 

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I AM HIGHLY OFFENDED by that picture. UGH. Seriously. That bugs the crap out of me. 

And this just reinforces my opinion they are absolutely lifting from THE END verse. GRRRRRR

Eh, I think if they are going for a militia/military look, it's going to have fatigues and holsters, etc - no real way around that.

[Aeryn13]

So, Jack and the gang storms Michael`s headquarters? And then they argue over killing Kevin for being a collaborator? 

Dean is looking mighty fine. He has been for a few episodes. I mean, he always does but they stopped with those weird "tiny Dean and giant Sam" fish lens camera angles and all that stuff that bothered me in the first half of the Season from a filming perpectives.  

[Pondlass1]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Dean in a soft-looking, brown shirt and black tee. I'll just stare at this a while.

I think Dean is beginning to look like the younger brother. LOL.  Anyone notice the gray hairs in last night's episode?  Oh  Dean .... buy a thigh holster next time you're shopping for plaid at Hunters R Us.  Better than a gun shoved down the back of your pants.

**Oops this is probably the wrong thread and I'll be told off.

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I think you are selling folks way short on this. Assuming you mean here, I think if you read that thread you'll see by and large the opinion it was highly meaningful for Dean. Where company parts is how folks interpret that significance, not that they didn't get it was significant in a major way.

I AM HIGHLY OFFENDED by that picture. UGH. Seriously. That bugs the crap out of me. 

And this just reinforces my opinion they are absolutely lifting from THE END verse. GRRRRRR

I meant as far as Dean's mytharc. For me it pretty much was the dress,reversal for him doing his self sacrifice move to save mom and/or get a win which leads,to Dean!Michael.

[Diane]

[Casseiopeia]

This is pretty spoilery....at least it seems like it from the comments.

[gonzosgirrl]

18 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

This is pretty spoilery....at least it seems like it from the comments.

I'm so torn. I don't know if I want to know. ETA: I watched. It's just a compilation of the tweets already posted over the last couple days set to weird music. LOL.

23 minutes ago, Diane said:

So is he trying to tell us something?

Edited April 20, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[ahrtee]

I know this has been discussed and theorized to death, but I lost track somewhere.

Do we know if we're going to get Dean as a different personality (ie, Michael or Death, just using Dean's body) or is Jensen playing another character who's not Dean (but just happens to look like him)?  I know there's overlap, but it does make a difference.  Jensen could play great-grandpa Winchester, for instance, one of the MoL brought forward in time (hence the 1920s outfit in 2018 America?)  I know that doesn't fit with "someone we haven't seen for years" (and it's already been done by Henry), but it's just an example.  

Just curious.  

[SueB]

50 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'm so torn. I don't know if I want to know. ETA: I watched. It's just a compilation of the tweets already posted over the last couple days set to weird music. LOL.

So is he trying to tell us something?

 

That he's a little shit who loves to tease fans?
That he's stoked about the S14 plotline? 
That he's still got the photography bug and thought this was a good way to end the season (his hashtag was #thatsawrap) and try out the Focus feature on Instagram?

IDK.  Since we've already seen the spoilers here, I don't think there is new news in that photo -- other than another confirmation.

Seeing the nice outfit, I am reminded of Robbie Thompson saying how getting Jensen in a different 'costume' was always a bonus for an epsiode.  And Jared (I think it was Jared, it might have been Jensen, talking about how he loves nice suits).  I can also imagine that a distinctive outfit is a helpful tool for creating a different character.

Glad to see he seems to be having a good time.  Looks like schools out for summer for all the Supernatural team.  I know Misha & Sam Smith wrapped the other day.  Jared sent a note 13 hrs ago.  

Edited April 20, 2018 by SueB

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'm so torn. I don't know if I want to know. ETA: I watched. It's just a compilation of the tweets already posted over the last couple days set to weird music. LOL.

So is he trying to tell us something?

Of course he is. Hes a spoiling little shit. Lol

[Casseiopeia]

I apologize if this has already been posted.  I haven't had internet for almost 2 weeks.  From Kevin Parks...they sure seem to be making a big deal out of this guy...

[Myrelle]

5 hours ago, Diane said:

I love this pic. It's so Mysterious.

My tumblr dashoard is flooded with this one, and YES! those promo pics of Dean in that soft, brown shirt. ;-D

Edited April 21, 2018 by Myrelle

[SueB]

Spitballin' some speculation:
- Jessica talked about Death and a reset. What if that is what Michael!Dean is engaged in.  Going back in time to prevent himself from screwing up with the Apocalypse in the first place.  Back to the 1920's & great grandpa Winchester (or Campbell).  But I have no idea why Dean would think that was a good idea.  Maybe Dean thinks saying yes to Michael to stop AU Michael is a good idea and then Michael takes his vessel on a road trip to fix the past so that he (Michael) never makes these mistakes.  Maybe Michael blames himself for everything (maybe he SHOULD).  Maybe Death is counting on Dean doing a reset.  Both Death & Michael are (IMO) going to be wrong -- Sam, Cas & maybe real Dean himself will not give up this screwed up timeline quietly.  Because they can't trust Michael back in power.  

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, Myrelle said:

I love this pic. It's so Mysterious.

My tumblr dashoard is flooded with this one, and YES! those promo pics of Dean in that soft, brown shirt. ;-D

I'm reading a lot of spec on Twitter that Dean is going to be a younger Crowley.  I just can't figure why that would be a thing that J2 have long wanted to see.

But that is a fucking great picture.  I still get a Death vibe out of it.

[Aeryn13]

I think the 20s garb is throwing speculations out of whack right now. For the primary spoilers "a character who hasn`t been seen on the show for years" and "a storyline that has been a loooong time coming", the only true candidates are Michael and Death. I can see no other character who would fit the criteria. Maybe episodes 21 and/or 22 will shed some light on some form of "time displacement".  

The show has never established any theme or character relevant to the 20s. There is nothing that makes me immediately go "of course, that means it`s this". 

Edited April 21, 2018 by Aeryn13

[DeeDee79]

12 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I know this has been discussed and theorized to death, but I lost track somewhere.

Do we know if we're going to get Dean as a different personality (ie, Michael or Death, just using Dean's body) or is Jensen playing another character who's not Dean (but just happens to look like him)?  I know there's overlap, but it does make a difference.  Jensen could play great-grandpa Winchester, for instance, one of the MoL brought forward in time (hence the 1920s outfit in 2018 America?)  I know that doesn't fit with "someone we haven't seen for years" (and it's already been done by Henry), but it's just an example.  

Just curious.  

This is a good question. From the previous specs it seemed like it would more than likely be Michael!Dean that we were getting. The 20's garb implies that it could be something ( or someone ) entirely different. I'm pretty lost now myself :(

[catrox14]

Thinking more, no longer find an issue with the clothing for Dean being Death. The style is not that dissimilar to Deaths style when he was introduced. I can see him wearing clothing that he enjoys just because he can.Death showed up in 2009 2010 in a 50s Cadillac which makes him kind of anachronistic as it is.

I don't know why Dean would be Henry Winchester. Unless Dean thought he could go back in time and change John's life or something, I don't see what Henry would know or offer.

Cain still is on my dark horse list. Cas!Dean or Lucifer!Dean has risen since Jared said he was interested to see him ply this character. An out of time Lucifer would make  a lot of sense IMO as say he's wanted to see his take on whoever this character will be?

Crack spec is Anael!Dean because Buck Lemming would find it hilarious to have Jensen play his wife's character and Jared might be joking about him waiting a long time for this.

And she might want to be a 1920s man LOL.

The only references to the 1920s that I can think of  is with the woman from  the tentacle monster episode.

[Aeryn13]

Singer said it was a character who has not been on the show in years. That knocks out Cas, Lucifer and anyone else who is or was recently on. 

And Jared has said multiple times that he waited years to read some of the stuff he has been reading for this storyline. Now, that could be a general thing of Dean not being Dean for a change but the way he said it, it sounded like something specific that was hinted in the show but never fulfilled. 

Michael is closest. Death is a possibility. Cain could be dark horse but after Dean had the MOC and became a demon, he was pretty much in Cain`s position so I doubt it fits the "finally" spoilers.

Another dark horse for me would be Benny. But there is really no rhyme or reason to it.

Going by the current set-up of storylines, we have AU!Michael who might need to be fought by Prime!Michael. We have the disarray in heaven which needs an archangel. Now obviously, Michael wouldn`t need to have a vessel in heaven (even though all the angels run around in vessels up there for...reasons, that reason being "otherwise we can`t tell stories in heaven visually for the audience to see).

Since they introduced Billie as new Death and IMO are not in any hurry to get rid of her again, I`m dubious about former Death. 

The Season has a lot of bruhaha about archangels. Bringing Michael back doesn`t come so far out of left field now. And who knows maybe he is a big Gatsby-fan or something.       

[SueB]

And the Kim Manners "give them what they expect in a way they never expected" chestnut comes to mind.  I think the unspoiled audience would expect Dean to do something ridiculously brave and possibly rash to save his family.  But a way they'd never expect it would be "yes" to Michael for the unspoiled, and some weird twist on either what version of Michael we're getting or what happens next for the unspoiled.

It doesn't have to be Michael but the church photo looks like a deliberate hint or a foiler (faux spoiler).  I don't think they've gone to foilers yet.  

[Casseiopeia]

I'm getting an exploration of the ancestry of the Winchesters/Campbells vibe from that picture.  Has Dean been thrown back in time to right some wrong in order to set the timeline straight?  Like one of the Campbells or Winchesters opened a pandora's box that let in the supernatural.  It would be a fitting end to the series if the Winchesters did something to eradicate all monsters, demons and angels from earth.

Samuel Campbell?

[ILoveReading]

Only Jensen's character seems to be wearing the period clothing so I'm thinking time travel isn't involved.  Whoever he is probably just likes to wear that style or that was the style the last time he was on Earth.

Jensen also said that Dean steps up, and that it was going to be big, and in the NashCon gold panel when he said they were going to explore something that was a long time coming, he repeated long time coming and really emphasized the word long.  I don't see it being Henry, Benny, Crowley or Cain based on those remarks.

Death could fit but his death was only a couple of years but as I mentioned with how Jensen really put the emphasis on "long" it feels like he meant something longer than a couple of years that he's been waiting.   If it is Death it could be Death from the AU world.  Maybe he comes to our world to stop Michael and/or Jack.

Michael seems to be the person that fits.    Apparently that tweet from Kevin Parks of the Angel in the stained glass, the words on the band around his middle is the Biblical translation for Michael (I have no idea if true,  I saw someone tweet it.).

 

It does seem like there is some kind of battle in the church. 

Edited April 21, 2018 by ILoveReading
edited for clarity

[catrox14]

http://www.tvguide.com/news/finale-preview-2018-spoilers/

Quote

 

As Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) continue the search for Mary (Samantha Smith) and Jack (Alexander Calvert), the latter will finally come face-to-face with his evil father, Lucifer (Mark Pellegrino). The intense meeting will bring up a mixture of emotions, especially when Jack notices some startling similarities between father and son. "In Lucifer, he may see parts of himself that he does not necessarily like," executive producer Andrew Dabb tells TV Guide.

Plus, after 13 seasons, Jensen Ackles will finally step into the shoes of someone other than Dean Winchester, and according to executive producer Robert Singer, fans should prepare themselves, because this one is going to be a season ender. "It's a bold choice for us, but I think it's really going to pay off," adds Dabb.

Okay, is Michael a "bold choice" per se? Death maybe. But if Twitter spec of Dean being Fergus/Crowley would be "bold" choice. I don't know why he would agree to it and if it is Crowley then how does that even work?

Crowley doesn't have a soul according to What's Up, Tiger Mommy and he died in the AU. So is he really in the Empty?

 

Ohhhhhhhh shit. Light bulb. Tangent.

Prediction:

The answer to saving Heaven is the Empty. I'm calling it now. Jack will attempt to resurrect all the angels so they can go back to Heaven and he accidentally resurrects all the demons at th same time.

 

That opens up a crapton of possibilities as to who Dean becomes. And I'm adding Alastair back to the list. That would be one hell of a shift and kind of akin to s9 and Dean becoming a demon. And Alastair possessing Dean would be one hell of a vengeance on Dean for Dean torturing him and Sam killing him. Not sure how Dean would be possessed unless something happens to his anti possession tattoo which was foreshadowed with Rowena messing with Sams. hmmmmmm

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Okay, is Michael a "bold choice" per se? 

For everyone spoiled? No. Which is why I think the possibility gets discarded too easily right now. When the showrunners (any of them, actually) give interviews, it`s always a lot hyperbolic. Like it`s gonna be oh-so-mindblowing twists that change the nature of the show. And maybe for unspoiled viewers and casual watchers, that is true. For all the folks here, if it was Michael, we would see it and go "well, that was the number 1 speculation". 

But that is not what or who Dabb thinks of when he makes statements like these. So they have to be taken with a grain of salt. 

I remember back in the earlier Seasons we were still getting script sides for new characters. And the one for Lazarus Rising for Cas had dialogue like Dean going "so you are AN demon?" Yes, to "keep the secret" the pages for which the actors auditioned had Cas as a demon, Misha even refered to it once or twice.  They just didn`t bother to change the grammar accordingly.

And everyone reading those sides, immediately caught on to that and went "oooh, it`s gonna be an angel". For a lot of people the cat was out of the bag before the episode aired. But for general audiences? It was probably a big and bold surprise to bring in angels.    

[SueB]

I believe this is from the tumblr of http://gaywitchtwins.tumblr.com/ (I had to chase thru multiple Tumblr posts to find what I think is the original poster ...  warning, op is listed as "anti-destiel" for those of the destiel fandom. ETA and also a bitter Sam stan.. so be warned).

First... He has WINGS!  Then... well, of course he has wings... he can teleport.

I LOVE that he is protective of Mary.  I just love this.  I know many are not Mary fans, but Jack lost a mother and Mary has thus far failed to find her footing as a mother to Sam and Dean.  I'm okay with the Jack/Mary relationship being maternal.  

Edited April 21, 2018 by SueB

[catrox14]

That could also bring  back Raphael. The problem is how do they get past the Empty Keeper? He supposedly sent back Cas because he annoyed him. Maybe the  Empty Keeper is over run by resurrected demon as and angels. Or swerve. Rowena Fi ds out about the Empty, she kills the Empty Keeper trying to find Crowley and she wakes up all the demons. As Jack wakes up the Angels?

Maybe some of the souls start falling out of Heaven before Jack figures out how to resurrect the angels.  So we get a bunch of dead characters back in ghost form, including  John.

So we get Apocalypse 2.5.

Another swerve, if we get Apocalypse 2.5 then maybe we end up with Michael Dean and Lucifer Sam but they don't fight and instead have to work together to kill AW Michael before he brings his army of angels.