Spoilers With Speculation

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, Jakes said:

TVLine just dropped a juicy bit:

 

 

Mary likes the pure fight of the AU world and likes being there--when the boys get there and she's somewhat hesitant to leave, it causes tension.  I say leave her there Sam and Dean!  That's the perfect solution...she's been on the show long enough imo.

Wow, screw you, Mary.

Your sons risked their asses to save you time and again. She can stay there. UGH.

ETA: And the show will probably try to spin it as Mary is a badass and her boys are trying to make decisions for her and not thinking of her freedom and choices and how dare they! UGH UGH UGH

[catrox14]

ETAA: Honest to gods, I wouldn't be surprised if Mary stays there and gets pregnant because she's only what 39 or 40 in the show. She'll end up having Bobby's baby in the AU or some other stupid thing and then that will be the child that saves AW.  I swear to gods. LOL

[Aeryn13]

Quote

ETA: And the show will probably try to spin it as Mary is a badass and her boys are trying to make decisions for her and not thinking of her freedom and choices and how dare they! UGH UGH UGH

Undoubtedly. Maybe it will get it through their heads finally that they are dealing with an ungrateful ice-bitch and to finally make like Elsa and let it go.

I hope it`s not happening in episode 18 when it`s just Dean but later when it`s both of them. And in that, they are a united front.  

[gonzosgirrl]

I'm impressed. I didn't think they could make me dislike Mary more. I underestimated them.

[Bobcatkitten]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'm impressed. I didn't think they could make me dislike Mary more. I underestimated them.

Man, I was hoping they would rehabilitate her a little if possible. Not make it worse. 

Also, if Dean says yes to Michael to save Mary and she does that she is dead to me. And should be to the Winchesters as well. 

Edited April 9, 2018 by scribe95

[SueB]

I need Mary and Sam to have a relationship and closure.  Without that, I'm not happy with this plan.  Maybe if they figure out an interdimensional phone plan....

[MysteryGuest]

I think it's just a matter of finding something to do with the Mary character.  Other than just killing her off, that is.  At least this way she's doing something noble by trying to save all of those innocent children we saw last time she was onscreen.  I don't have a problem with it, specifically, because what are they really going to do with her character in our world?  Obviously, if this is the way they decide to go, then I'm hoping the writers are able to make the decision seem positive and reasonable, and not just another fuck you to her sons.  Assuming that Michael is dispatched by the end of the season, then having her remain in the AU with Bobby, or possibly even with Ketch, does make some sense to me.  Our world needs Sam and Dean, so it's not like they can stay there to fix things.  And if my choice is having Jack stay behind or having Mary stay, I think I'd choose to have Jack back with TFW.

[Castiels Cat]

On 4/7/2018 at 10:01 PM, catrox14 said:

I still don't see how that would work either. He's still a demon with some archangel grace. I don't see why or how that would make him an archangel powerful to wield the archangel blade.

The whole point of him having Gabriel was to kill Lucifer using the blade which requires an archangel.  Weakening Gabriel defeats his purpose.  I can only assume he believes the grace will enable him to use the blade to kill Lucifer. 

Despite his tedious tendancy to monologue he is not  a dumbass.

Perez on the orher hand is because this nakes bo sense chronically.  Any demon should disintegrate, die, destruct when confronted with angelic  grace.  We have seen this when it is expressed as light through the vessel.  An archangel's grace has exponentially more mojo.

Shrugs... handwaves... little doses immunizes him so he can tolerate it. Yeah. Sure. Whatever. It is canon now.

On 4/8/2018 at 8:07 AM, Aeryn13 said:

So, the next episode is gonna have three "storylines". 

I`m not sure what is gonna A plot and B plot between "Dean and Ketch in AU world" and "Sam, Cas and Gabriel in bunker, likely under attack from Col. Sanders". Maybe they will equal time. I do reckon "Lucifer, Sister Jo and angel shenanigans" is gonna be the C plot. Though that still requires a little bit of screentime then.

If the guys in the bunker face their own attack, it does make it a bit less likely that they will handle that AND mount a big rescue mission afterwards. Maybe they are doing something to help Dean get back at the end but likely not cross over themselves. This will apparently come later in ep 22 anyway.

Now Dean and Ketch obviously won`t reach their incentive but their trip has to have a narrative purpose beyond "Ketch likely sacrifices himself" or he stays over there in a world that could use fighters. Gather some intel or accomplish something that makes this more than "padding" of an episode. It`s gonna be expensive location shooting and set dressing, with some effects and stunt work. Towards the end of the Season, there is probably not enough money to burn it on just "for shits and giggles". 

I figured meeting AU!Mike but if the actor is not in the episode, then obviously not. Just seeing how bad the world is? Dean already has seen it. Right now I`m a bit stumped. They already know in rough terms that AU!Mike wants to x-over and begin an invasion. Lucy told Cas who told the brothers as far as I can remember. Maybe they find out he is really close in making that happen.    

 I am wondering if tortured Gabriel is,AU Gabriel and a plant or soy for AU Michael.  Just an idea. 

[Castiels Cat]

On 4/8/2018 at 3:15 PM, Aeryn13 said:

If they had made the trip closer to the Finale - and when they make the trip in either 21 or 22 again - I expect them to land in that exact same space everyone lands who immediately runs into everyone else important. I call it the land of plot convenience. 

So IMO that alone can`t be the reason for the side trip right now. Like I said, I could be convinced it`s just like the "Gog and Magog" scene, funny but ultimately completely pointless in the episode, just to pad the runtime. But that was likely not half as expensive to film as the AU world stuff is gonna be. I could also be convinced they want to give Ketch some redemption but again, that could just the same be accomplished in our world and not by blowing up their money for expensive location shooting. 

To shell out the money and time for that right now when obviously everyone is going over there again a couple of episodes later would be completely redundant if it doesn`t have a narrative purpose.  The best guess I can come up with right now would be finding some specific intel on what the angels are planning and how their invasion is imminent. Maybe the Michael-actor is in it after all, who knows. This just has to have a point. 

Just imagine if Dean is over there, searches for Mary, doesn`t find her, comes back and then three to four episodes later Dean and Sam go over there and obviously find Mary. For the sole reason that it`s now four episodes later. Even this show, I expect better from.     

Gog and Magog were not pointless perhaps. According  to Wiki killing them are Apocalyptic harbingers much like killing Lilith was in season 5 and their killer is considered to be the "messiah", chosen one, simetimes conflated with Michael, the guy who take a out Lucifer. 

Pretty anvilicious.

On 4/8/2018 at 8:31 PM, MysteryGuest said:

Do fans really want another Dean/Michael vs. Sam/Lucifer showdown?  What would be the point of that?  We're so far down the road from that storyline, I just don't get the appeal.  And what's the endgame?  Lucifer and Michael back in the cage, and what about Sam and Dean?  Rescued from hell by Castiel again?  Wash, rinse, repeat.  

I'm happy the show is continuing for another season at least, but I so want an end to the angel/demon saga.  If there was nothing interesting to write for a great actor like Mark Sheppard, then believe me, there's nothing interesting for Colonel Sanders, either.  

If Sam says yes to Lucifer it will be to fight by his brother's side against AU Michael.  The set-up is different.  

[Castiels Cat]

22 hours ago, catrox14 said:

It doesn't have to be a direct repurposing. Dabb has repurposed the entire show at this point and made cosmetic changes or just flipped things a bit. That's what I consider repurposing. Agree to disagree. 

It is not a mindless repurposing.   It is a rather clever reboot that has allowed this fan to follow the clues about the storylines with considerable success since season 8.  And it is a reboot rhat works well within the show's canon.  Episodes such as The Song Remains the Same and The End as well as the,fact that they never get a break from yet another sorta kinda apocalypse that they sorta kinda started since they stopped one in season 5 ... or did they...

What did Samifer say.... something to the effect that no matter what yiu do we will akways end up here....

It may be on a cosmic scale something that keeps resetting.

The reworking of themes and storylines is one of the few things Dabb does kinda sorta okay in my opinion.  I think he did a great jib of signaling the upcoming Apocalypse in 12 as well as the likelihood of Dean!Michael in 12/13.

[BoxManLocke]

It's astounding what little they've done with Mary since bringing her back except being a source of conflict a couple of times.

 

You'd think for a character that has such potential and importance to the mythology they'd try just a little, but that's really this season in a nushell ; all the characters are important except the ones that should be. I mean after season 12 a Ketch redemption arc was all the fans were asking for really, so that takes priority over character development for Sam, Dean, or God forbid, Castiel (remember when people though the creature from The Empty would show up again ? Fun times).

Edited April 10, 2018 by BoxManLocke

[Myrelle]

6 hours ago, Jakes said:

TVLine just dropped a juicy bit:

 

 

Mary likes the pure fight of the AU world(and fighting for a cause) and likes being there--when the boys get there and she's somewhat hesitant to leave, it causes tension.  I say leave her there Sam and Dean!  That's the perfect solution...she's been on the show long enough imo.

 

6 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I had a feeling this episode was going to end with Dean finding Mary and her not wanting to leave.  I wonder if Jack stays or goes with Dean because the synopsis for episode 20 says that Jack finds his confidence growing. 

Ugh. I had the same feeling.

Oh, and look at that she likes the "pure" fight of the AU world-I wonder where they got that being part and parcel of her reasoning for wanting to stay. <insert eye roll here>

And yes, IA that if Dean questions her decision one iota in any way or for any reason whatsoever, he will get another lecture on learning to let go and/or respecting her decisions and feelings-which is why I hope that he won't say a word(Jensen wouldn't need to do that anyway) and just leaves her there. It would be nice if Jack then decides that he'd rather be back in our world-the one that her sons were born into and inhabit and belong to and in, that is.

5 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'm impressed. I didn't think they could make me dislike Mary more. I underestimated them.

IKR?

[Bergamot]

11 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I think it's just a matter of finding something to do with the Mary character.  Other than just killing her off, that is.  At least this way she's doing something noble by trying to save all of those innocent children we saw last time she was onscreen.

No, they really need to kill her off.  They should have done it at the end of last season, in the interest of limiting the damage to the character. Mary staying in the AU world because she likes being there is not noble, not unless there is something only she and no one else can do by staying there. Which is not the case if she just wants to kill evil things -- there are other fighters in that world that can do that. And to me it very clearly means that all those things she said last season -- that nothing comes before her family, that she was working with the British MOL for Dean and Sam's sake ("I'm doing this for you!" she told them), that she would never choose hunting over her boys -- were flat-out lies.

Not to mention the fact that her insistence that Dean and Sam were trying to force her to choose between being their mother and a hunter was always a straw man argument -- I think they would love to have her hunting with them. And yes, I know, it wouldn't work for the show for a lot of reasons, but that is the writers' problem -- they should have figured out what they were going to do with her before they brought her back. The path they've chosen, in my opinion, leads to the inescapable conclusion that not only does Mary not love her sons, she doesn't even like them enough to want to spend time in the same universe with them. It's sad when psychopathic Ketch is more eager to work alongside Dean and Sam than their own mother is.

14 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'm impressed. I didn't think they could make me dislike Mary more. I underestimated them.

So true!

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

No, they really need to kill her off.  They should have done it at the end of last season, in the interest of limiting the damage to the character. Mary staying in the AU world because she likes being there is not noble, not unless there is something only she and no one else can do by staying there. Which is not the case if she just wants to kill evil things -- there are other fighters in that world that can do that. And to me it very clearly means that all those things she said last season -- that nothing comes before her family, that she was working with the British MOL for Dean and Sam's sake ("I'm doing this for you!" she told them), that she would never choose hunting over her boys -- were flat-out lies.

Not to mention the fact that her insistence that Dean and Sam were trying to force her to choose between being their mother and a hunter was always a straw man argument -- I think they would love to have her hunting with them. And yes, I know, it wouldn't work for the show for a lot of reasons, but that is the writers' problem -- they should have figured out what they were going to do with her before they brought her back. The path they've chosen, in my opinion, leads to the inescapable conclusion that not only does Mary not love her sons, she doesn't even like them enough to want to spend time in the same universe with them. It's sad when psychopathic Ketch is more eager to work alongside Dean and Sam than their own mother is.

 

Preach! I'm sure they'll write the boys as pissed, then accepting, then calling Mommy the bravest, fiercest, most bestest woman evah! and shedding some man tears over her But if she does that, she's deader than dead to me, for all the reasons you stated here.

[Myrelle]

20 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

No, they really need to kill her off.  They should have done it at the end of last season, in the interest of limiting the damage to the character. Mary staying in the AU world because she likes being there is not noble, not unless there is something only she and no one else can do by staying there. Which is not the case if she just wants to kill evil things -- there are other fighters in that world that can do that. And to me it very clearly means that all those things she said last season -- that nothing comes before her family, that she was working with the British MOL for Dean and Sam's sake ("I'm doing this for you!" she told them), that she would never choose hunting over her boys -- were flat-out lies.

Not to mention the fact that her insistence that Dean and Sam were trying to force her to choose between being their mother and a hunter was always a straw man argument -- I think they would love to have her hunting with them. And yes, I know, it wouldn't work for the show for a lot of reasons, but that is the writers' problem -- they should have figured out what they were going to do with her before they brought her back. The path they've chosen, in my opinion, leads to the inescapable conclusion that not only does Mary not love her sons, she doesn't even like them enough to want to spend time in the same universe with them. It's sad when psychopathic Ketch is more eager to work alongside Dean and Sam than their own mother is.

 

ITA with all of this, but especially the bolded part. They can have AUMichael do it. It would be right up his alley.

16 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Preach! I'm sure they'll write the boys as pissed, then accepting, then calling Mommy the bravest, fiercest, most bestest woman evah! and shedding some man tears over her But if she does that, she's deader than dead to me, for all the reasons you stated here.

I'm expecting her to save both Dean and Ketch in this next episode before she tells them that she has to stay and then the besotted Ketch will offer to stay with her.

That's right up Dabb's alley with his Mary Susan Winchester.

What a hatchet job he did to the character. Such a shame.

Yes, it's my opinion, too. Kill her off and let the fandom at least try to forget that the ResurrectedMary storyline ever even happened.

[DittyDotDot]

If Mary feels she doesn't fit in the original universe and has found a place she feels she fits in the Alternate, I say she's better off staying in the Alternate rather than coming back and causing more pain for Sam and Dean. They're never going to have the relationship Sam and Dean--and fandom--want with her. She just can't connect with them. Too many years passed and she missed too much of their lives, not to mention her own guilt about it all. I can't really blame Mary, she didn't ask to be brought back and now she doesn't know what to do with herself and everything she does do seems to cause more pain and heartache. I think Mary staying on the other side is the best thing she can do for Sam and Dean--and herself. 

Edited April 10, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[companionenvy]

6 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

If Mary feels she doesn't fit in the original universe and has found a place she feels she fits in the Alternate, I say she's better off staying in the Alternate rather than coming back and causing more pain for Sam and Dean. They're never going to have the relationship Sam and Dean--and fandom--want with her. She just can't connect with them. Too many years passed and she missed too much of their lives, not to mention her own guilt about it all. I can't really blame Mary, she didn't ask to be brought back and now she doesn't know what to do with herself and everything she does do seems to cause more pain and heartache. I think Mary staying on the other side is the best thing she can do for Sam and Dean--and herself. 

It might be the best thing she can do for the show, but I don't buy that it would be the best thing for Sam and Dean - or that it is the act of a loving mother, unless there's a more specific and pressing reason she needs to stay in the alt!verse. 

I actually had a lot of sympathy for Mary last year. She had been pulled out of heaven, and was understandably having a really hard time relating to adult sons she remembered as very young children. Her joining the BMOL was a misguided way of helping them and also, I think, a psychological way of allowing her to stay apart from them while still telling herself she was still being a good mother. She was wrong, but it was a very human reaction, IMO, and not one that had to permanently ruin her as a character.

But if she stays in the AU, that means she is OK living on and quite likely never seeing her sons again. Barring severe extenuating circumstances, that's not something I can accept, or at least, not if they frame it as a matter of Mary's desires rather than as one of Mary's sense of obligation to the people in alt-verse. 

[Pondlass1]

And if she can even have a roll in the hay with Ketch if he stays along with her (wonder if they have black satin sheets in the AU?)

Plus she's a super duper scared of nothing hunter.  And she can comfort and protect the frightened little children like she did with her own baby Dean... oh, wait --

[DittyDotDot]

19 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

It might be the best thing she can do for the show, but I don't buy that it would be the best thing for Sam and Dean - or that it is the act of a loving mother, unless there's a more specific and pressing reason she needs to stay in the alt!verse. 

Isn't the act of a loving mother to not cause pain for her children? If she can't connect to them, but stays with them anyway, won't her disconnect be felt by Sam and Dean everyday? Loving mothers come in different shapes and forms and there are many different ways to show love, IMO.  Just like mothers who know they can't take care of their children and giving them up would give them a better life, I think Mary stepping away from Sam and Dean is actually an act of love for them. I don't believe she can ever connect, it's just not in her, IMO--some women just can't. And quite frankly, they're grown men who have lived most their life without her; they don't actually need her and know how to live without her. This way they don't have to witness her death again and they can think of her fondly, fighting the good fight like they do rather than struggling to have a relationship with her that she can't manage to reciprocate. 

Edited April 10, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[gonzosgirrl]

23 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Isn't the act of a loving mother to not cause pain for her children? If she can't connect to them, but stays with them anyway, won't her disconnect be felt by Sam and Dean everyday? Loving mothers come in different shapes and forms and there are many different ways to show love, IMO.  Just like mothers who know they can't take care of their children and giving them up would give them a better life, I think Mary stepping away from Sam and Dean is actually an act of love for them. I don't believe she can ever connect, it's just not in her, IMO--some women just can't. And quite frankly, they're grown men who have lived most their life without her; they don't actually need her and know how to live without her. This way they don't have to witness her death again and they can think of her fondly, fighting the good fight like they do rather than struggling to have a relationship with her that she can't manage to reciprocate. 

 

I don't think I could possibly disagree with this more. Firstly, because that's not the Mary we were shown for 11 seasons, before her resurrection. And even if Dean's memories of her were rose-tinted, it's not the Mary we were shown in the time travel eps. She was never portrayed as someone who didn't have it in her to connect, especially not to her own children. And regardless of their ages, they are her children. The writers seem to want it both ways, redeeming that with her regrets and declarations of love, and maybe, MAYBE she moved towards that after 12.22/12.23, but staying behind in the AU by choice would erase all that (for me). She's seen how much they still love her, and how much they want her in their lives - and she's told them both how much she loves them. So choosing to abandon them yet again would be heartless, selfish and unforgivable. Not any kind of act of love I'd wish on anyone.

But i bet Dabb will do it, and bet even more that he'll have Dean somehow apologize to her for it.

ETA: And I'm not saying she needs to stay and bake cookies or tuck them in, or any of the ridiculous extremes implied by 'I'm not just a mom'. She doesn't even need to hunt with them. But choosing to never see them again? Unless they are planning to have the rift turn into a revolving door to which only they hold the key, that's just wrong.

Edited April 10, 2018 by gonzosgirrl
Clarity

[Bergamot]

47 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't believe she can ever connect, it's just not in her, IMO--some women just can't.

Actually, I have come to the point where I agree with this. I would go further and say that it is not just that Mary cannot connect -- it's that there is something wrong with her, something that is missing, something that is akin to what is missing in Ketch and drew them together. The problem is that the show's writers will never be honest about the kind of character they have written in Mary. My bet is that if Mary decides to stay in the AU world, it will be presented as a heroic decision, and it won't be discussed that it lets her off the hook for her inability to connect to her sons. And also, if Dean and Sam protest, they will be presented as wrong for asking her to only be their mother instead of also a hunter (and again, straw man argument, because they never asked this of her.) And in the end I don't think it is fair to Dean and Sam for them to be left feeling that they bear, or even share, the burden of responsibility for something that I think was a failure on Mary's side.

Edited April 10, 2018 by Bergamot

[SueB]

Plot wise, Mary staying in the AU makes a ton of sense.  Personally, I think they were going to leave Jack in the AU and now may keep Jack and let go of Mary.  Fandom wise, that's a trade many would make.

But for our characters I have a major issue with Sam not getting anything resembling closure.   And Dean JUST got 3 seconds of closure before his Mom went away again.  Both boys need some actual time with Mary.  What pisses me off about "just a Mom" argument is that it implies one cannot do both. Rowena's "I will not apologize for being a career woman!" was HILARIOUS but also along the same vein.  For Sam & Dean, I can see how any long term significant others turns into a liability.  But what is Cas? What is Jack? What was Bobby? What is Jody?  These people matter.  And so does Mary.  So.... I'm going to need some deft handling here but there's insufficient time in the season to do so.  Maybe Bobo will pull something off in 13.21.  

So... I need a teether... some way that it's not "goodbye forever" and someway that we feel Mary is in a stable position from a safety perspective.  If we have that, then I'll grudgingly accept it. Then there is at least the hope they can get proper closure.  

[Bobcatkitten]

No one is saying Mary needs to move into the bunker and make them breakfast every morning. But there's got to be a middle ground between staying in an alternate universe and devoting her entire life to her kids. Why can't she be a hunter they see occasionally in their world? They could have holiday visits or work on cases every once in a while. Go on a vacation together. For God's sake, there is something besides the extremes at every end that make her look like a heartless person. Especially one that doesn't match at all the person we have been shown in flashbacks. 

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, scribe95 said:

No one is saying Mary needs to move into the bunker and make them breakfast every morning. But there's got to be a middle ground between staying in an alternate universe and devoting her entire life to her kids. Why can't she be a hunter they see occasionally in their world? They could have holiday visits or work on cases every once in a while. Go on a vacation together. For God's sake, there is something besides the extremes at every end that make her look like a heartless person. Especially one that doesn't match at all the person we have been shown in flashbacks. 

100%

I am a childless-by-choice woman, so I get that there are those who cannot make a connection, and those who simply choose not to. IMO, Mary Winchester S1-S11 was not presented as either of those types. So no, I don't accept that it's 'normal' for her to make these kinds of choices now. Either they admit they completely redrew the character and she's Mary Winchester in name only, or that she came back wrong, missing a piece of Mary 1.0. Soul, heart, conscience, I don't care. But if they just leave her like this, choosing to abandon them again, then they have ruined her for me.

[Jonesy]

44 minutes ago, SueB said:

Plot wise, Mary staying in the AU makes a ton of sense.  Personally, I think they were going to leave Jack in the AU and now may keep Jack and let go of Mary.  Fandom wise, that's a trade many would make.

But for our characters I have a major issue with Sam not getting anything resembling closure.   And Dean JUST got 3 seconds of closure before his Mom went away again.  Both boys need some actual time with Mary.  What pisses me off about "just a Mom" argument is that it implies one cannot do both. Rowena's "I will not apologize for being a career woman!" was HILARIOUS but also along the same vein.  For Sam & Dean, I can see how any long term significant others turns into a liability.  But what is Cas? What is Jack? What was Bobby? What is Jody?  These people matter.  And so does Mary.  So.... I'm going to need some deft handling here but there's insufficient time in the season to do so.  Maybe Bobo will pull something off in 13.21.  

So... I need a teether... some way that it's not "goodbye forever" and someway that we feel Mary is in a stable position from a safety perspective.  If we have that, then I'll grudgingly accept it. Then there is at least the hope they can get proper closure.  

It's possible Sam and Dean get some closure when they presumably meet Mary over in the AU--A talk will be had and maybe after some initial tension, some connection on all sides occurs.  It makes sense for Mary to move on--maybe they find a way to make occasional visits occur.  That said I guess we are not 100% sure Mary stays there.

Edited April 10, 2018 by Jakes

[Bobcatkitten]

Finally got to listen t the Gold Panel from Montreal and they said they had the first day of shooting for E23 but that after that they will have to go back and finish up E22 due to some scheduling issues. This seems to go along with what we put together on Michael/Keyes. 

[catrox14]

They aren't seeking Mommy. I would imagine they do miss on some level being mothered which they are not expecting from her. That's all in her head.

Thus far, since her resurrection they experienced her betrayals, her lies, her rejection of them as the men they are now. It would be another abandonment still without her truly knowing or at least the audience being shown that she knows them for who they are and for their entire lives beyond hunters. It's not been shown that she ever attempted to know anything about their relationships, their partners, their likes and dislikes beyond Dean and Mary enjoying the same music. Or beef jerky.

Maybe she judges them and is thus judging herself for her failures but IMO to leave them again tells me she doesn't care about connecting with them and doesn't care about being in their lives and that it's only about how she feels. And I get that she is an a terrible predicament. But if she doesn't want to be alive, then she should summon Billie and ask to go back to Heaven, rather than live a different life in the other world. But she isn't seeking that.

Instead, she'll stay over there and do what? Bond with other children? Bond with Jack? To me if she is  unwilling to spend time healing with the boys and just runs away from them again then I can't see it as a loving act. If her continued presence causes them all pain and they tell her it's causing them pain, maybe? But that is not what I see happening thus far. They were happily reunited and eager to be a family again. This is contrived drama IMO.

[Aeryn13]

Right now I`m hoping the spoiler sheet guessed Sam Smith guest-starring in episode 18 wrongly because of the summary. I mean, Jack and Mary are mentioned but that doesn`t mean they are actually in the episode. 

So that Dean and Sam only meet her when they both cross over in ep 22 (maybe late 21, who knows). At least then there is a chance both will be allowed to react with hurt and anger. And while undoubtedly this will be played again as a childish, selfish need for her to be "Mommy" and not "respect her autonomy", it will hit both evenly. Mary will not be called on her crap, will once again act entitled and self-righteous and get apologies for it, I`m pretty sure.  No wonder I was pretty happy when AU!Michael was torturing the snot out of her.

The character has become horrible to me since being resurrected. It`s like they dug her up right out of pet semetary. 

And however Dean "steps up" - Michael seems the best bet at this point - it should in no way, shape or form be about her. They have the perfect set-up with the impending invasion to have it be about something heroic and "saving people". So please God, let it be that. The motivation is make or break stuff here for me. 

[companionenvy]

I do think that Mary ending up willingly staying in the AU is a potentially good and not-traumatizing ending for her if framed correctly. What gives me pause is the notion that she's staying or considering staying because (like Dean in purgatory), she revels in the "purity" of the constant fight. Because that's not choosing something better or nobler, its pure escapism, and of a fairly self-destructive kind.

I agree with SueB that, in the first place, we need some closure, and a couple of episodes in which Mary, Dean and Sam interact meaningfully and positively. But even beyond that, the decision to stay has to be based in something more profound than feeling more comfortable in a state of war than in doing the hard work of making a life for herself that includes her sons in some way. If Mary has become a leader in AU-world and feels that she can't abandon her troops, that's one thing. If it turns out (not going to happen, but it would have been an option) that time passes differently in the AU, she's been there for a number of years, and is married to and maybe even raising (presumably non-biological) kids with alt-Bobby, that's also potentially OK. But if it is just a matter of choosing to stay because she likes it, well, that's pure selfishness. It isn't that Sam and Dean need a mommy; it is that generally, people who give a damn about their loved ones, even if they have a taste for adventure, manage to pursue their goals while stopping somewhere short of "OK, great, have a nice life! It's time for me to do me!" I was ticked off when adult Henry Mills essentially did this in the Once Upon a Time kind-of-reboot, and I'd be ticked off if SPN did it, too.

[Bergamot]

43 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I do think that Mary ending up willingly staying in the AU is a potentially good and not-traumatizing ending for her if framed correctly. What gives me pause is the notion that she's staying or considering staying because (like Dean in purgatory), she revels in the "purity" of the constant fight. Because that's not choosing something better or nobler, its pure escapism, and of a fairly self-destructive kind.

Unfortunately I think that this is the reason why she wants to stay in the AU. From the tvline.com spoiler:

Quote

Just because Dean and Sam are trying to get Mary home doesn’t mean she’ll want to go back. “She actually enjoys the fight” in apocalypse world, executive producer Robert Singer says. “That’s something that when she was in our world, when she went off with the British Men of Letters, kind of upset the guys. She, in an odd way, has found a home there where she can be a pure fighter. "

It doesn't sound as if she is thinking about how it would be better for the whole family, and cause less pain, if she stayed there. It sounds as if she just likes it.

Another thing that struck me about this quote from Singer -- and this is part of what I was referring to when I said that the writers will not be honest about the character of Mary -- is the way he airily dismisses the way that Dean and Sam were horrified to learn that Mary  was working with the British MOL, by saying that they were just "kind of upset" with the fact that she "enjoys the fight". Yes, Mr. Singer, the reason that Dean and Sam were upset was just because they did not like her enjoying being a fighter against supernatural evil. It had nothing to do with the fact that she was allying herself with a group that had tortured and tried to kill them, or that she had lied and manipulated them into working on a case that killed one hunter and almost killed Castiel, or that she was willing to risk their lives to complete a mission for the MOL.

Personally I would not mind so much if she said good-bye to her sons by admitting that she could not give them what they needed, but that it was her fault for not being able to give it, not theirs for needing it. But to me the implication in Singer's statement is that Dean and Sam were making unreasonable demands on Mary, and I don't think that is what we saw on the show.

Edited April 10, 2018 by Bergamot

[catrox14]

I really think Mary is filled with profound shame and she isn't going to get through the shame if she continues to avoid the people she hurt who are WILLING to be with her and have essentially forgiven her. The thing for me that makes this not really better is that Mary was already off being a "soldier" with the BMOL whilst lying about it. She used that to avoid her boys IMO. And she'll be using the AU to avoid them again.

[gonzosgirrl]

On 6/29/2017 at 7:55 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

It took me a minute to figure out what you meant. IMDb is editable by anyone, so I wonder if this isn't someone's idea of a joke, but omg.

 

Quoting this post from back in June 2017, an IMDB screenshot from just before filming began for S13. So was whoever edited it an insider, prescient or did their wish (possibly) come true?

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Quoting this post from back in June 2017, an IMDB screenshot from just before filming began for S13. So was whoever edited it an insider, prescient or did their wish (possibly) come true?

All of the above? LOL

I've been saying all along that I don't see them giving us Michael!Dean without Samifer.

[gonzosgirrl]

15 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Unfortunately I think that this is the reason why she wants to stay in the AU. From the tvline.com spoiler:

It doesn't sound as if she is thinking about how it would be better for the whole family, and cause less pain, if she stayed there. It sounds as if she just likes it.

Another thing that struck me about this quote from Singer -- and this is part of what I was referring to when I said that the writers will not be honest about the character of Mary -- is the way he airily dismisses the way that Dean and Sam were horrified to learn that Mary  was working with the British MOL, by saying that they were just "kind of upset" with the fact that she "enjoys the fight". Yes, Mr. Singer, the reason that Dean and Sam were upset was just because they did not like her enjoying being a fighter against supernatural evil. It had nothing to do with the fact that she was allying herself with a group that had tortured and tried to kill them, or that she had lied and manipulated them into working on a case that killed one hunter and almost killed Castiel, or that she was willing to risk their lives to complete a mission for the MOL.

Personally I would not mind so much if she said good-bye to her sons by admitting that she could not give them what they needed, but that it was her fault for not being able to give it, not theirs for needing it. But to me the implication in Singer's statement is that Dean and Sam were making unreasonable demands on Mary, and I don't think that is what we saw on the show.

Another 100% agreement here.

When I read/hear statements like that from Singer, I am honestly baffled by the idea that he really sees it like this. Does he see no nuance in his characters at all? Has he paid no attention to them over the years beyond the thumbnails? I sincerely don't understand how a guy who has been with the show since day one can see it this way. It's bizarre.

[ILoveReading]

6 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

She just can't connect with them.

In theory I would agree, but there are several problems as to why I don't agree it applies in this situation, and first and foremost she didn't even try.  We had one scene where Mary reached out to Sam about why he went back to hunting.  Dean tells her he's been to hell and Mary didn't react at all.  Dean tells her Sam was possessed by Lucifer and went to hell and was tortured and her reaction, 'but will he forgive me.

What little bit we did get was all shallow and superficial like Mary likes Beef Jerky.  She put lots of effort into connecting with Asa, the boy she saved.  She even risked a border crossing as a legally dead person, but her sons, she couldn't even pick up a phone to let them know she wasnt' dead.  

What little bit of a connection Mary and Dean had, all the effort came from Dean. 

As @gonzosgirrl so eloquently put it, it doesn't match the Mary we've been introduced for the first 11 years.  Even in the first two episodes, things were shaky but they seemed to be working.  

I will acknowledge that this was a big failure on the writers part, but even if the writing isn't there, its possible to soften it as we've seen Jensen do numerous times.   I get the feeling that Sam Smith wants nothing to do with the mom part of Mary. 

If Mary can't connect the writers need to own it  They need to have Mary say she doesn't see Sam and Dean as her sons, but the show will never go there.  I also feel like the writers are trying to send a message that the failure to make the relationship work is not on Mary but on Sam and in particular Dean.   Sam seems to think a connection exsists between Mary and Dean as we saw in The Big Empty and the fact that they made Dean apologize for everything he deservedly told Mary at the start of the The Raid.  He ended up apologizing for wanting her to make sandwiches even though it was never about. 

I feel like that if Sam and/or Dean get upset or angry about Mary staying behind, Dean will be made to learn a lesson about letting go or being too clingy, but this is approaching bitterness so I'll leave it there.

Edited April 10, 2018 by ILoveReading

[DittyDotDot]

7 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't think I could possibly disagree with this more. Firstly, because that's not the Mary we were shown for 11 seasons, before her resurrection. And even if Dean's memories of her were rose-tinted, it's not the Mary we were shown in the time travel eps. She was never portrayed as someone who didn't have it in her to connect, especially not to her own children. And regardless of their ages, they are her children.

Oh, I think Mary of the past could've connected with her children. But, unfortunately she died and spent 30 years in Heaven with memorex versions of her children. To Mary, these two grown men are good men, but they're not her sons and I don't think any amount of time with them will change that for her. Mary of now simply isn't the person she once was. Which, being resurrected 30 years after your death can do that to a person.

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Which, being resurrected 30 years after your death can do that to a person.

My issue with this is that the show is not telling us that this is Mary's problem. They have made it all out to be that Sam, and more-so Dean, are being unreasonable by wanting to be attached with her again.

To me, if they had played a through line that was teased in s12 with the Asa Fox episode, maybe I would buy it. As it stands now, they have essentially decided that Mary is not wrong, was never wrong and isn't sharing with her sons that she's still stuck in that headspace.

[ILoveReading]

36 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

To Mary, these two grown men are good men, but they're not her sons and I don't think any amount of time with them will change that for her

How would she know if she never tried?

[companionenvy]

There's also no need their relationship has to be any kind of conventional mother/son bond, which is impossible at this point anyway. It isn't like the options are move into the bunker or live in AU world. She could hang out with Jodi in Sioux Falls. She could retire to Boca. I don't believe that having some understandable trouble knowing how to relate to adult sons you didn't get to raise (and are not much younger than you are) means you can't manage to work up to a relationship where you touch base on the phone once a week and get together for Christmas and birthdays.

And yeah, if she doesn't want or isn't willing to do that, I do think it makes her a bad mother, and a not-great person. 

[BoxManLocke]

If you want to have Mary make such an important decision, you have to work to it beforehand at least a little bit. Make sure the viewers know her decision makes sense because of what she's been through. Just give a good reason. Give the character a chance to not come off as a heartless piece of garbage, especially when her sons have been working their asses off to get her out of there for months.

 

Anything people might say about Mary's state of mind right now doesn't amount to anything except guesswork. I absolutely hate when fans basically have to fanfiction their way into a character's nonexistent POV because the writers can't be bothered to do their fucking jobs.

 

The last piece of Mary POV was in episode 12x22 and it was a pretty optimistic one. Almost a full season later and a whole lot of nothing for Mary, the only thing they're willing to introduce is another feud between her and Dean.

Yeah, it's convenient for the plot that Mary stays in the AU to help Jack. Fine. But giving a shit about your characters is just as important as moving the plot along. One can't go without the other, otherwise I'm not going to care about the plot. Why would I when all characters are underdeveloped pieces of crap ?

[MysteryGuest]

At this point in the game, I don't think I'm ever going to get what I needed or wanted to see between Mary and her sons.  I think that ship has sailed by the very fact that they've turned her into someone completely different from the Mary we knew about for 11 seasons.  They threw us a bone at the end of last season by having her reconcile with her sons, and then immediately turned around and tossed her into the AU.  My assumption is that bringing Mary back was never intended to be the least bit warm and fuzzy.  It was just to add more angst to their lives.

I think having her stay in the AU is preferable to having her die again, at least from Sam and Dean's perspectives.  They certainly understand the idea of feeling responsible for the world, so if Mary says she feels she's needed in the AU because our world has Sam and Dean, I can see them going along with that.  Plus, it's an easy out for TPTB.  They can bring her back at any time, but if they don't want her around, she's nicely out of the way over there.  I could easily live with that.

[DittyDotDot]

55 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

As it stands now, they have essentially decided that Mary is not wrong, was never wrong and isn't sharing with her sons that she's still stuck in that headspace.

Personally, I don't think Mary is wrong; nor are Sam and Dean. They all have valid points of view and I don't think show has ever suggested that they don't. It's a crappy situation that none of them asked for. They're all just trying to do the best they can with it, IMO.

[Castiels Cat]

18 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Personally, I don't think Mary is wrong; nor are Sam and Dean. They all have valid points of view and I don't think show has ever suggested that they don't. It's a crappy situation that none of them asked for. They're all just trying to do the best they can with it, IMO.

Yes.  And the apples did not fall far from their momma tree really. Both boys are so much like their momma and all three had crazy hunter upbringing courtesy of gung-ho military fathers.  From what we saw in 6, Mary probably my had it worse than Dean and Sam although she did have her mother.

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Yes.  And the apples did not fall far from their momma tree really. Both boys are so much like their momma and all three had crazy hunter upbringing courtesy of gung-ho military fathers.  From what we saw in 6, Mary probably my had it worse than Dean and Sam although she did have her mother.

 Mary lived in the same house, had two living parents who loved her and gave her a relatively normal life aside from hunting. I have no idea how she had it worse than Dean and Sam. It's like not even close.

[Castiels Cat]

4 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

In theory I would agree, but there are several problems as to why I don't agree it applies in this situation, and first and foremost she didn't even try.  We had one scene where Mary reached out to Sam about why he went back to hunting.  Dean tells her he's been to hell and Mary didn't react at all.  Dean tells her Sam was possessed by Lucifer and went to hell and was tortured and her reaction, 'but will he forgive me.

What little bit we did get was all shallow and superficial like Mary likes Beef Jerky.  She put lots of effort into connecting with Asa, the boy she saved.  She even risked a border crossing as a legally dead person, but her sons, she couldn't even pick up a phone to let them know she wasnt' dead.  

What little bit of a connection Mary and Dean had, all the effort came from Dean. 

As @gonzosgirrl so eloquently put it, it doesn't match the Mary we've been introduced for the first 11 years.  Even in the first two episodes, things were shaky but they seemed to be working.  

I will acknowledge that this was a big failure on the writers part, but even if the writing isn't there, its possible to soften it as we've seen Jensen do numerous times.   I get the feeling that Sam Smith wants nothing to do with the mom part of Mary. 

If Mary can't connect the writers need to own it  They need to have Mary say she doesn't see Sam and Dean as her sons, but the show will never go there.  I also feel like the writers are trying to send a message that the failure to make the relationship work is not on Mary but on Sam and in particular Dean.   Sam seems to think a connection exsists between Mary and Dean as we saw in The Big Empty and the fact that they made Dean apologize for everything he deservedly told Mary at the start of the The Raid.  He ended up apologizing for wanting her to make sandwiches even though it was never about. 

I feel like that if Sam and/or Dean get upset or angry about Mary staying behind, Dean will be made to learn a lesson about letting go or being too clingy, but this is approaching bitterness so I'll leave it there.

IMO the writers had Mary behave like a Winchester.  She ran from her problems just like we have seen Sam do.  She dove into hunting just like we have seen Dean do.  She tried to make up for her mistakes by with a grand,gesture jyst like we have seen Sam do. And she tried to go out bloody and,make,the world safer and better so her boys would not have to hunt just like Dean would do. 

We have seen Dean and Sam do this repeatedly. It seems reasonable that Mary behaves in a similar way.  Eventually the talking will happen.  How many years did it take the brothers to get to the place they are now and they are not dealing with the perfect storm of culture shock  resurrection shock and,being confronted with two grown men instead of babies.  I cannot even imagine.

Personally I think they have done really well with Mary.  I am pleased she is,a,fully realized character and neither a Mary Sue or Mommy.  I think it is brilliant rhat they are using her as,a,stepping off point for exploring Dean's,tragic flaw since her loss is undoubtedly the crux of its development.

Different strokes I guess.

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 Mary lived in the same house, had two living parents who loved her and gave her a relatively normal life aside from hunting. I have no idea how she had it worse than Dean and Sam. It's like not even close.

Did you not see what an absolute horror stgory Samuel was in season 6.  Either he had a complete personality change or he was always a horror story.  A decent person does not have his grandsons tortured and killed.

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Did you not see what an absolute horror stgory Samuel was in season 6.  Either he had a complete personality change or he was always a horror story.  A decent person does not have his grandsons tortured and killed.

That was a resurrected Samuel.

Back in 1973, he was kind of a dick but he didn't drag his daughter all over every where, didn't make her raise another child. She went to school, had friends, had a boyfriend and the worst I saw 1973 Samuel do was bit annoyingly sexist. So yeah, I think he did change upon being resurrected.

Edited April 11, 2018 by catrox14

[ILoveReading]

17 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Personally I think they have done really well with Mary.  I am pleased she is,a,fully realized character and neither a Mary Sue or Mommy.  I think it is brilliant rhat they are using her as,a,stepping off point for exploring Dean's,tragic flaw since her loss is undoubtedly the crux of its development.

Different strokes I guess.

We will have to agree to disagree on this.  I think Mary is a bland one note character, with no layers or nuance.  I see none from the writers nor Sam Smith's performance.

I'm not sure how this is helping with Dean's tragic flaw.  He never expected Mary to be super mom.  He tried to support her decisions.  Mary is really doing nothing for Dean but causing him more pain.

 

17 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Did you not see what an absolute horror stgory Samuel was in season 6.  Either he had a complete personality change or he was always a horror story.  A decent person does not have his grandsons tortured and killed.

Samuel did what he did to get his daughter back.  He never treated Mary that like.  IMO, Samuel could have cared less about his grandson.  I guess the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Edited April 11, 2018 by ILoveReading

[DeeDee79]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

So yeah, I think he did change upon being resurrected.

Also, I think that his obsession with Crowley's promise of bringing Mary back to life had much to do with how over the top he was. 

[catrox14]

Just now, DeeDee79 said:

Also, I think that his obsession with Crowley's promise of bringing Mary back to life had much to do with how over the top he was. 

Yeah, I think that had everything to do with it. He was blinded and didn't care about Dean and Sam. I mean he never knew them. They weren't anything to him.

[Castiels Cat]

On 4/9/2018 at 12:41 AM, SueB said:

I'll take that bet, with the proviso that "my brother" doesn't count (Dean being the subject of the sentence) and "I" doesn't count if he's saying something like "I think..." and proceeds to talk about something that is not about Sam.  

 

Synopsis

posted on tumblr by  sjb6759

 

So... somehow demigods got the better of an Archangel.  MMMMkay. Maybe?  I still think he was hiding in the past or REALLY liked Seinfeld's pirate shirt.  

Oy, and Jack turns Icarus for an episode. Damn. 

Jack turning Icarus was a given merhinks. 

As to the rest... just gag me with a spoon. Ya. I totally get thar they are playing with  the first Apocalypse tropes and arcs and character types. But man does this stink of gratuitous fan service...
In a season in which we already have too many friggin plotlines and characters…. this is just the worst fan service. And to have a powerful archangel ridiculed in this way to begin with....

It makes no sense that he can be overpowered by denigods and sold to Asmodeus.  It makes no sense for him to act like Renfield (Dracula's pet). Pathetic waste of time.

I would much rather he gave shown up in a,mailed cache of porn sent to Dean.  It would have been a more fitting tribute to the character.