Spoilers With Speculation

[companionenvy]

41 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

There really shouldn't be something that overrides the evil of Lucifer, because it's Lucifer, the most evil to evil.

Right, but Lucifer is just a fallen angel. There may have been something bad in him that the Mark brought out, but he wasn't born (or, you know, Chucked into being) evil incarnate, so neither should his son, even without the Kelly part.

Honestly, I don't think Lucifer is even necessarily the most evil being we've encountered on the show. He just happens to be (Amara excepted) the evil being with the greatest destructive power. So even if we did go with the evil by nature hypothesis, I don't think Spawn is more likely to be predisposed toward evil than the (hypothetical) children of any of the other horrible people/entities on the show.

Of course, if he is evil, he has more power to do harm, and in real-world terms, there might be a utilitarian case to be made for it simply being too dangerous to allow him to live. But I'm pretty confident the show isn't going there, and in any case, it wouldn't be because he was a bad seed, but because he simply had so much power that it was too much of a risk to keep him alive. 

Edited September 25, 2017 by companionenvy

[DittyDotDot]

17 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

Of course, if he is evil, he has more power to do harm, and in real-world terms, there might be a utilitarian case to be made for it simply being too dangerous to allow him to live. But I'm pretty confident the show isn't going there, and in any case, it wouldn't be because he was a bad seed, but because he simply had so much power that it was too much of a risk to keep him alive. 

And, I actually think this is going to be the exploration, not whether Jack was born evil or not.

I'm guessing initially Dean just wants to kill him because he's in a bad place and thinks Jack is the cause of Cass and Mary's death. But, judging by comments that Dean thinks they shouldn't try to rescue Mary, I'm guessing, once he has time to process the loss--and something else probably will go wrong too--Dean's argument isn't that Jack is evil so we must kill him, but that not trying to depower him or kill him before he implodes is reckless and irresponsible of them.

So, I think in the show's true form, both Sam and Dean will be both right and wrong.

[catrox14]

46 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

Right, but Lucifer is just a fallen angel. There may have been something bad in him that the Mark brought out, but he wasn't born (or, you know, Chucked into being) evil incarnate, so neither should his son, even without the Kelly part.

I don't know about that.  It's never by been said that Lucifer WASN'T born evil. Angels in the SPN verse are not necessarily "good" though. They lie. They kill, so are they really "born" good? I'm not convinced TBH. 

Edited September 25, 2017 by catrox14

[companionenvy]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

They lie. They kill, so are they really "born" good?

C'mon, Catrox. You know the answer to that. They're dicks with wings :)

Seriously, I don't think angels are born good OR evil - they're born to obey. However, we've seen tons of angels who, for better or worse, have deviated from this prime directive, at which point they, assume moral agency for their actions, IMO. Judging again by what we've seen, I think angels, like humans, may be predisposed toward certain behaviors - Cas had a "crack in his chassis" that made him inclined to rebel in favor of humanity, and Lucifer had qualities that allowed him to be totally corrupted by the Mark. But I can't gel Lucifer's position as Chuck's favorite son and the prize of heaven with Lucifer being born downright evil. 

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

But I can't gel Lucifer's position as Chuck's favorite son and the prize of heaven with Lucifer being born downright evil. 

 I think Chuck was lying about that anyway. I didn't believe anything Chuck said to Lucifer during that speech. IMO he told Lucifer what he thought Lucifer wanted to hear to get Lucifer to cool his jets and come over to the fight. We all know that Cas is Chuck's favorite. :) IMO.  I hope he stays Chuck's favorite with another resurrection!

Edited September 25, 2017 by catrox14

[catrox14]

Some kind soul did this. Watch them quick before they get taken down

 

Edited September 25, 2017 by catrox14

[ILoveReading]

They really did turn Jack into a Cas clone.

I can already tell Colonel Sanders is going to be annoying. 

[catrox14]

It looks like Dean couldn't bring himself to burn Cas' body. Maybe he carried him inside for Spawn to heal? I did not like seeing Cas' body under the sheet. I gasped out lout at that.

I don't know if that's an angel coming for him or what.

Just now, ILoveReading said:

They really did turn Jack into a Cas clone.

I can already tell Colonel Sanders is going to be annoying. 

Yup, they really did. That pissed me off TBH. I wonder if Spawn is saying he has to find his father that he really means Cas? I would like that but I doubt it.

Why TF are Mary and Lucifer just standing together like allies or some shit?  Why isn't Lucifer trying to kill her? BLECH.

Also, fuck Brad Buckner and his glib. 'Rowena is dead, burned to a crisp as a matter of fact:"

[catrox14]

Berens: 'The AU is a very pure place for Mary"  Really show? Just gonna give Purgatory 2.0 to Mary.  

Quote

 

Wait, WHAT? Berens on Wayward Sisters:

"Basically the story is what happens when Sam and Dean Winchester aren't on this plane of existence to save the world" when they are talking about Wayward Sisters? I don't understand. Is this going to be in the AU?? I am gonna be PISSED if this spinoff does not factor in Sam and Dean. I am so confused.

 

18 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I can already tell Colonel Sanders is going to be annoying. 

Bless you for this. Henceforth he is Colonel Sanders. LOL

Edited September 26, 2017 by catrox14

[companionenvy]

I can't help myself. For all the complaining I do, I am super excited about this season! And even if Jack is a little too early-Cas for my liking, I'm kind of interested to see where they go with him, since he'll necessarily be in a very different position re: the boys than original recipe Cas was. I'm also really interested to see how they bring Cas back.

The one thing that really bugged? The whole "Mary isn't intimidated by Lucifer" thing. If Mary isn't scared of Lucifer, she's a blithering idiot, and the idea that she can give as good as she gets with a fully-powered archangel is absurd beyond belief.

[trxr4kids]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Berens: 'The AU is a very pure place for Mary"  Really show? Just gonna give Purgatory 2.0 to Mary.  

I had to stop and take a break after that bs. 

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

The one thing that really bugged? The whole "Mary isn't intimidated by Lucifer" thing. If Mary isn't scared of Lucifer, she's a blithering idiot, and the idea that she can give as good as she gets with a fully-powered archangel is absurd beyond belief.

I'm just going to assume that her full name is Mary Sue Campbell Winchester. Give me a freaking break, show.

[DittyDotDot]

5 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

The one thing that really bugged? The whole "Mary isn't intimidated by Lucifer" thing. If Mary isn't scared of Lucifer, she's a blithering idiot, and the idea that she can give as good as she gets with a fully-powered archangel is absurd beyond belief.

Well, as we've seen, Mary ain't all that bright--I'd go as far as saying she's dumb as a box of hair--so it kinda makes a certain amount of absurd sense to me. ;)

[trxr4kids]

Hey maybe Holtz/Donatello will kidnap Jack and take him to the other dimension to raise, problem solved.

[catrox14]

Just now, trxr4kids said:

Hey maybe Holtz/Donatello will kidnap Jack and take him to the other dimension to raise, problem solved.

I am loving the snark in this thread. This would be my hope! LOL

[sarvenaz]

I found better quality if anyone's interested....

[bettername2come]

55 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

Hey maybe Holtz/Donatello will kidnap Jack and take him to the other dimension to raise, problem solved.

Thank you! I was wondering what I recognized him from.

Another link for sneak peak.

[SueB]

Just saw it on iTunes... thanks for the tip-off.

I'm so EXCITED!  Again, that word.

Initial thoughts from one viewing:
- 'Last season gave them a lot of allies and then they stripped them all away. ' That's pretty classic hero's journey story telling. I'm good with the theme
- So Dean is back on the bottle.  Well, I don't blame him.  And I don't blame him for thinking the kid is going to be evil.  Since "nurture vs nature" plus the impact the boys have on other people are two big themes on the show, I have high hopes for they'll bring him around.  I liked Dean asking him if he was old enough to drink.  And then just accepting 3 days as reasonable.  
- Sam is going to be reasonable.  I kinda feel like that's not very fair to Sam.  I think he's going to have to shove down any grief he has just to keep Dean and Jack moving forward.  
- Jack acts like Castiel.  It'll endear me to him.  I think it will help Dean to see him be such a blank slate.  Although I find it fascinating that his instinct is like a cornered deadly animal.  Pretty ferocious.
- Glad to see Mary gets away from Luci right off the bat.  I'll be curious to see how.
- Can't wait for Donatello.  I'm really excited he comes back.  I liked him.
- Loved the acknowledgement that 'Wayward' comes from the fans
 

Lots of goodies in there.  Have to rewatch.

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

Jack acts like Castiel.  It'll endear me to him. 

Yeah, I was thinking it was a tribute to Cass's influence on him as a fetus and found it endearing too. It's always cute when the wee ones try to emulate their heroes. ;)

Edited September 26, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[auntvi]

Small nitpick, but I wish Asmodeus didn't have that fake Southern accent.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, auntvi said:

Small nitpick, but I wish Asmodeus didn't have that fake Southern accent.

Same! That's why I love the "Colonel Sanders" nickname. I can only presume that Asmodeus has been hanging out at KFC

[SueB]

8 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I just want Dean to kill him so we can get rid of the character.  Not interested in watching the Winchesters play dad. 

I'd give 5 to 1 odds that Jack is there until mid-season.  We know for sure he's there thru 6.  And Beren's flat out said, regarding Waywards Sisters; "the story is basically what happens when Sam and Dean aren't on this plane of existence to save the world."  Which means they likely jump into the AU at the end of the mid-season cliffhanger and Jody and the girls save the world themselves (with this new Hellmouth thing).  And by the end of the mid-season premier the brothers come back.  

Does Jack come with them? IDK.  But he's likely the one to open the way to the other dimension.  

As for "Winchesters play dad", I'm up for that.  Dean's done it twice already. Once with Sam and for a full year with Ben.  And even in that little snippet HE's the one who stops and thinks about Jack drinking a beer.  Which, IMO, is a potential sign that Dean is going to show actual concern for the kid.  That thrills me.  And maybe he lets Sam do the heavy dad-lifting. That's even better.  Sam has NEVER had to be a real parent before.  It might give him a new perspective on not only John and Mary, but more importantly on Dean.  It's a pretty common life experience that your children don't appreciate you until they have children for themselves.  I wouldn't mind Sam get that perspective.  NOT because Sam owes Dean anything but because Sam is not likely to father his own child some day.  He doesn't do drunken hookups and he's not getting involved with anyone anytime soon.  Maybe this gives Sam perspective on parenthood.  Maybe this causes him to think he WANTS to be a parent someday.  Dean's always shown that leaning (towards parenthood) in his heart even if his mind has firmly shut the door on it.  But Sam?  He's talked about a woman but never about a child.  I don't know if they will go there with this topic but I'd love to see it if they did.

Little bits I picked up on in psuedo episode order-ish:
- Shot of an absolutely devastated Dean looking down at Cas, another at him looking up at the sky
- Dean comes into the room with Sam and Jack and shoots at Jack (Sam deflects his arm, I don't think it actually hits the kid)
- Jack blows them into the wall with his power
- Jack leaves lake house naked, in the daylight, and it agitates the tear in reality
- The boys go chasing after Jack, leaving the house in a rush in the daylight
- Jack wants to find his "Father".  He has that drive.  And since he's still looking AFTER he either passes poor dead Castiel or AFTER he puts poor dead Castiel on the table in the dining room, I think he means "Lucifer" as his father. Note: I think Jack may be the one to put Cas on the table, or it might be the boys.... but Jack doing it is a nice parallel with Kelly).  
- Jack has an adventure where he finds Castiel-toned sweater and regular clothes, meets some dude who thinks he's high and somehow he and Sam wind up in the cell together
- Sam convinces Jack not to kill him and Dean TRIES to get Sam out of jail (the preview with him talking to the sheriff) but ends up talking to him through the bars
- Meanwhile back at the lake; an angel in a very nice looking striped suit walks past Cas' dead body.  We know its an angel because we later see that angel and another break open the doors to the cell that Sam and Jack are in
- Somehow Dean runs into a separate angel (who looks like the Jodie Miller stunt double BTW) and they get into a fight
- Back in the cell, the angels show up, take off the door and try to kill Jack. Sam angel-be-gones them but Jack gets stabbed with an angel blade and pulls it out -- thus proving he's not easily killed (note: this may be because of the archangel bit because the S8 nephilim died by angel blade). 
- Sam and Dean have a bromoment at the Impala post fight and they decide to keep the puppy (er... Jack).  
- Sam, Dean and Jack burn Cas' body back at the Lake House... we know this is towards the end because it's all three of them

MEANWHILE, over in AU space, Luci smacks Mary around and then Michael shows up.  Michael breaks Luci's arm and either he and Luci leave or Mary escapes but that is why Mary is not-dead and roaming around Purgatory Apocalypse-ville.... where she runs into a hunter (is it just a hunter or a hunter/love interest?  too much?  sorry... that last bit about love interest is not remotely hinted at but it could be a Benny parallel? Cause some angst about going back? Just sayin'...).  It's also important to note that Mary is obviously wearing the wedding ring as a necklace again.  It features prominently in many of her shots. I take that as a sign she's over her 'running away from the boys' issue just in time to be stuck in Apocalypse-ville.

Then there's Asmodeus (I didn't like the way Brad Buckner pronounced his name) with his CHARACTER ENTRANCE (in all caps cause he gets a big scene).  And apparently he (per the other preview) kills off a few bad actors to show he means business.   It's probable that this is squeezed into the first episode but it fits more naturally in the second (I suspect).

Donatello shows up on his own (versus the boys go looking for him) because Dean says "why are you here?" and Donatello gives an acid-trip answer.  But there's a slight look of his eyes upwards so I'm going to hold out hope that he got a message he was needed (as in this is Chuck's answer to his prayers).  Now it's Donny and the boys together.... so I have to wonder where in the sequence this fits. Every indication is that it's AFTER they've gotten home and changed because the Cas burial scene is in S12 finale clothes.  This suggests that the first episode ends with Cas' burial or there-abouts and suggests the entire first episode they are in 12.23 clothes.  Then we see Sam and Dean are in different clothing when they and Donatello meet Asmodeus on a beach and he Vader-chokes them.  But Jack is not there in that shot.  So is Jack left ALONE in the bunker?  Is that wise?  IDK.  Does Jack come to their rescue?  Because a Prince of Hell is kinda a big deal.   I'm going to bet somehow they either lose Jack again or there's some plotnium reason that Jack isn't there.  Perhaps Jack wanders off looking for his Father again and then comes back in the nick of time to save the boys from Asmodeus (thus pulling a Ruby and saving the boys to feed the fans who think Jack is bad while making a case that Jack is good).  And at somepoint Dean drinks himself a 12 pack while rock music melts his brains, cause he's not in a very good place right now.

In the EP3 bits we frankly see non-Sam/Jack scenes. It's all Missouri Mosley, some wraith (it's got the stick thing) and Patience.  Patience has the death-foreshadowy thing because there's a brief glipse of a dead-Jodie (.54 second mark).  And another scene of Patience doing the nightmare wake-up thing.  Jody beats the wraith, thus proving she's a capable lead actress for her own show (works for me, I'm Team Wayward Sisters).  

And that's about it.  I'm sure there's more but that's what I remember.  They gave a lot away in that preview.  But I like where it's going.

Of course this is just me rearranging all the snippets we saw and putting them in logical sequence.  Nothing to say it actually plays out this way.

And NO! No TL;DR for you.  Read it or not.  I'm not summarizing this time because it's all in the details. 

Edited September 26, 2017 by SueB

[RulerofallIsurvey]

13 hours ago, companionenvy said:

The one thing that really bugged? The whole "Mary isn't intimidated by Lucifer" thing. If Mary isn't scared of Lucifer, she's a blithering idiot, and the idea that she can give as good as she gets with a fully-powered archangel is absurd beyond belief.

Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU for this!  I was just going to post the same thing.  As in - WTF?  Sam (who's been possessed by Lucifer and spent time in the cage with him) is intimidated by Lucifer, but not Mary?  Oh jiminy crickets...

As for Asmodeus, well, Lucifer never wanted to be in charge of Hell.  And Luci thinks demons (and Knights of Hell, I presume) are even lower than humans.  Or does he not know that Lucifer killed Dagon?  If he think he's going to fare better, talk about being dumber than a box of hair.

[Pondlass1]

I'm even more convinced Dabb, Singer and the Nep Duo have never actually watched the show.  

[Wayward Son]

32 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU for this!  I was just going to post the same thing.  As in - WTF?  Sam (who's been possessed by Lucifer and spent time in the cage with him) is intimidated by Lucifer, but not Mary?  Oh jiminy crickets...

As for Asmodeus, well, Lucifer never wanted to be in charge of Hell.  And Luci thinks demons (and Knights of Hell, I presume) are even lower than humans.  Or does he not know that Lucifer killed Dagon?  If he think he's going to fare better, talk about being dumber than a box of hair.

It was actually Cas who killed Dagon with a powerup courtesy of the unborn Jack.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

It was actually Cas who killed Dagon with a powerup courtesy of the unborn Jack.

Ack!  My bad!  You, sir, are correct!  I was thinking when Lucifer strangled (?) Dagon when checking on his child.  

[Jonesy]

My take on the I-tunes preview--looks promising to me and certainly doesn't make me think tptb don't know the show.  Now with Wayward Girls being on another plane--I thought it may be that the show and the girls will be thrown into another realm where the Hellmouth is...so their show would be away from where the boys are.  BUT I guess that maybe it's just the boys in the AU for a while.  So not sure.  Liked that they mentioned that Cas  returning helps Dean get his bearings again.  Also like Jack taking after Cas some and then dressing like him later--giving Cas another color by being sort of a father to him.  I like how the presence the actor that Asomodeus has...the accent doesn't bother me.   I enjoyed Donatello so glad he's back...would be cool if he has some Chuck message.

[catrox14]

I think Asmodeus is ridiculous. He's just annoying thus far. LOL

[Casseiopeia]

13 hours ago, SueB said:

I'd give 5 to 1 odds that Jack is there until mid-season.  We know for sure he's there thru 6.  And Beren's flat out said, regarding Waywards Sisters; "the story is basically what happens when Sam and Dean aren't on this plane of existence to save the world."  Which means they likely jump into the AU at the end of the mid-season cliffhanger and Jody and the girls save the world themselves (with this new Hellmouth thing).  And by the end of the mid-season premier the brothers come back.  

Does Jack come with them? IDK.  But he's likely the one to open the way to the other dimension.  

As for "Winchesters play dad", I'm up for that.  Dean's done it twice already. Once with Sam and for a full year with Ben.  And even in that little snippet HE's the one who stops and thinks about Jack drinking a beer.  Which, IMO, is a potential sign that Dean is going to show actual concern for the kid.  That thrills me.  And maybe he lets Sam do the heavy dad-lifting. That's even better.  Sam has NEVER had to be a real parent before.  It might give him a new perspective on not only John and Mary, but more importantly on Dean.  It's a pretty common life experience that your children don't appreciate you until they have children for themselves.  I wouldn't mind Sam get that perspective.  NOT because Sam owes Dean anything but because Sam is not likely to father his own child some day.  He doesn't do drunken hookups and he's not getting involved with anyone anytime soon.  Maybe this gives Sam perspective on parenthood.  Maybe this causes him to think he WANTS to be a parent someday.  Dean's always shown that leaning (towards parenthood) in his heart even if his mind has firmly shut the door on it.  But Sam?  He's talked about a woman but never about a child.  I don't know if they will go there with this topic but I'd love to see it if they did.

Little bits I picked up on in psuedo episode order-ish:
- Shot of an absolutely devastated Dean looking down at Cas, another at him looking up at the sky
- Dean comes into the room with Sam and Jack and shoots at Jack (Sam deflects his arm, I don't think it actually hits the kid)
- Jack blows them into the wall with his power
- Jack leaves lake house naked, in the daylight, and it agitates the tear in reality
- The boys go chasing after Jack, leaving the house in a rush in the daylight
- Jack wants to find his "Father".  He has that drive.  And since he's still looking AFTER he either passes poor dead Castiel or AFTER he puts poor dead Castiel on the table in the dining room, I think he means "Lucifer" as his father. Note: I think Jack may be the one to put Cas on the table, or it might be the boys.... but Jack doing it is a nice parallel with Kelly).  
- Jack has an adventure where he finds Castiel-toned sweater and regular clothes, meets some dude who thinks he's high and somehow he and Sam wind up in the cell together
- Sam convinces Jack not to kill him and Dean TRIES to get Sam out of jail (the preview with him talking to the sheriff) but ends up talking to him through the bars
- Meanwhile back at the lake; an angel in a very nice looking striped suit walks past Cas' dead body.  We know its an angel because we later see that angel and another break open the doors to the cell that Sam and Jack are in
- Somehow Dean runs into a separate angel (who looks like the Jodie Miller stunt double BTW) and they get into a fight
- Back in the cell, the angels show up, take off the door and try to kill Jack. Sam angel-be-gones them but Jack gets stabbed with an angel blade and pulls it out -- thus proving he's not easily killed (note: this may be because of the archangel bit because the S8 nephilim died by angel blade). 
- Sam and Dean have a bromoment at the Impala post fight and they decide to keep the puppy (er... Jack).  
- Sam, Dean and Jack burn Cas' body back at the Lake House... we know this is towards the end because it's all three of them

MEANWHILE, over in AU space, Luci smacks Mary around and then Michael shows up.  Michael breaks Luci's arm and either he and Luci leave or Mary escapes but that is why Mary is not-dead and roaming around Purgatory Apocalypse-ville.... where she runs into a hunter (is it just a hunter or a hunter/love interest?  too much?  sorry... that last bit about love interest is not remotely hinted at but it could be a Benny parallel? Cause some angst about going back? Just sayin'...).  It's also important to note that Mary is obviously wearing the wedding ring as a necklace again.  It features prominently in many of her shots. I take that as a sign she's over her 'running away from the boys' issue just in time to be stuck in Apocalypse-ville.

Then there's Asmodeus (I didn't like the way Brad Buckner pronounced his name) with his CHARACTER ENTRANCE (in all caps cause he gets a big scene).  And apparently he (per the other preview) kills off a few bad actors to show he means business.   It's probable that this is squeezed into the first episode but it fits more naturally in the second (I suspect).

Donatello shows up on his own (versus the boys go looking for him) because Dean says "why are you here?" and Donatello gives an acid-trip answer.  But there's a slight look of his eyes upwards so I'm going to hold out hope that he got a message he was needed (as in this is Chuck's answer to his prayers).  Now it's Donny and the boys together.... so I have to wonder where in the sequence this fits. Every indication is that it's AFTER they've gotten home and changed because the Cas burial scene is in S12 finale clothes.  This suggests that the first episode ends with Cas' burial or there-abouts and suggests the entire first episode they are in 12.23 clothes.  Then we see Sam and Dean are in different clothing when they and Donatello meet Asmodeus on a beach and he Vader-chokes them.  But Jack is not there in that shot.  So is Jack left ALONE in the bunker?  Is that wise?  IDK.  Does Jack come to their rescue?  Because a Prince of Hell is kinda a big deal.   I'm going to bet somehow they either lose Jack again or there's some plotnium reason that Jack isn't there.  Perhaps Jack wanders off looking for his Father again and then comes back in the nick of time to save the boys from Asmodeus (thus pulling a Ruby and saving the boys to feed the fans who think Jack is bad while making a case that Jack is good).  And at somepoint Dean drinks himself a 12 pack while rock music melts his brains, cause he's not in a very good place right now.

In the EP3 bits we frankly see non-Sam/Jack scenes. It's all Missouri Mosley, some wraith (it's got the stick thing) and Patience.  Patience has the death-foreshadowy thing because there's a brief glipse of a dead-Jodie (.54 second mark).  And another scene of Patience doing the nightmare wake-up thing.  Jody beats the wraith, thus proving she's a capable lead actress for her own show (works for me, I'm Team Wayward Sisters).  

And that's about it.  I'm sure there's more but that's what I remember.  They gave a lot away in that preview.  But I like where it's going.

Of course this is just me rearranging all the snippets we saw and putting them in logical sequence.  Nothing to say it actually plays out this way.

And NO! No TL;DR for you.  Read it or not.  I'm not summarizing this time because it's all in the details. 

Alexander Calvert is a series regular.  He will star in 11-13 episodes.  A lot is riding on him being able to carry the show for half the season.  Hopefully he is up to it.

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Alexander Calvert is a series regular.  He will star in 11-13 episodes.  A lot is riding on him being able to carry the show for half the season.  Hopefully he is up to it.

I thought the guy was good in Arrow but he was a guest actor playing an established comics character.  I have to say I am not thrilled with his acting thus far with Spawn. I j. He needs to become his own character and not  Poor Man's Castiel.

[Diane]

13 hours ago, SueB said:

I'd give 5 to 1 odds that Jack is there until mid-season.  We know for sure he's there thru 6.  And Beren's flat out said, regarding Waywards Sisters; "the story is basically what happens when Sam and Dean aren't on this plane of existence to save the world."  Which means they likely jump into the AU at the end of the mid-season cliffhanger and Jody and the girls save the world themselves (with this new Hellmouth thing).  And by the end of the mid-season premier the brothers come back.  

Does Jack come with them? IDK.  But he's likely the one to open the way to the other dimension.  

As for "Winchesters play dad", I'm up for that.  Dean's done it twice already. Once with Sam and for a full year with Ben.  And even in that little snippet HE's the one who stops and thinks about Jack drinking a beer.  Which, IMO, is a potential sign that Dean is going to show actual concern for the kid.  That thrills me.  And maybe he lets Sam do the heavy dad-lifting. That's even better.  Sam has NEVER had to be a real parent before.  It might give him a new perspective on not only John and Mary, but more importantly on Dean.  It's a pretty common life experience that your children don't appreciate you until they have children for themselves.  I wouldn't mind Sam get that perspective.  NOT because Sam owes Dean anything but because Sam is not likely to father his own child some day.  He doesn't do drunken hookups and he's not getting involved with anyone anytime soon.  Maybe this gives Sam perspective on parenthood.  Maybe this causes him to think he WANTS to be a parent someday.  Dean's always shown that leaning (towards parenthood) in his heart even if his mind has firmly shut the door on it.  But Sam?  He's talked about a woman but never about a child.  I don't know if they will go there with this topic but I'd love to see it if they did.

Little bits I picked up on in psuedo episode order-ish:
- Shot of an absolutely devastated Dean looking down at Cas, another at him looking up at the sky
- Dean comes into the room with Sam and Jack and shoots at Jack (Sam deflects his arm, I don't think it actually hits the kid)
- Jack blows them into the wall with his power
- Jack leaves lake house naked, in the daylight, and it agitates the tear in reality
- The boys go chasing after Jack, leaving the house in a rush in the daylight
- Jack wants to find his "Father".  He has that drive.  And since he's still looking AFTER he either passes poor dead Castiel or AFTER he puts poor dead Castiel on the table in the dining room, I think he means "Lucifer" as his father. Note: I think Jack may be the one to put Cas on the table, or it might be the boys.... but Jack doing it is a nice parallel with Kelly).  
- Jack has an adventure where he finds Castiel-toned sweater and regular clothes, meets some dude who thinks he's high and somehow he and Sam wind up in the cell together
- Sam convinces Jack not to kill him and Dean TRIES to get Sam out of jail (the preview with him talking to the sheriff) but ends up talking to him through the bars
- Meanwhile back at the lake; an angel in a very nice looking striped suit walks past Cas' dead body.  We know its an angel because we later see that angel and another break open the doors to the cell that Sam and Jack are in
- Somehow Dean runs into a separate angel (who looks like the Jodie Miller stunt double BTW) and they get into a fight
- Back in the cell, the angels show up, take off the door and try to kill Jack. Sam angel-be-gones them but Jack gets stabbed with an angel blade and pulls it out -- thus proving he's not easily killed (note: this may be because of the archangel bit because the S8 nephilim died by angel blade). 
- Sam and Dean have a bromoment at the Impala post fight and they decide to keep the puppy (er... Jack).  
- Sam, Dean and Jack burn Cas' body back at the Lake House... we know this is towards the end because it's all three of them

MEANWHILE, over in AU space, Luci smacks Mary around and then Michael shows up.  Michael breaks Luci's arm and either he and Luci leave or Mary escapes but that is why Mary is not-dead and roaming around Purgatory Apocalypse-ville.... where she runs into a hunter (is it just a hunter or a hunter/love interest?  too much?  sorry... that last bit about love interest is not remotely hinted at but it could be a Benny parallel? Cause some angst about going back? Just sayin'...).  It's also important to note that Mary is obviously wearing the wedding ring as a necklace again.  It features prominently in many of her shots. I take that as a sign she's over her 'running away from the boys' issue just in time to be stuck in Apocalypse-ville.

Then there's Asmodeus (I didn't like the way Brad Buckner pronounced his name) with his CHARACTER ENTRANCE (in all caps cause he gets a big scene).  And apparently he (per the other preview) kills off a few bad actors to show he means business.   It's probable that this is squeezed into the first episode but it fits more naturally in the second (I suspect).

Donatello shows up on his own (versus the boys go looking for him) because Dean says "why are you here?" and Donatello gives an acid-trip answer.  But there's a slight look of his eyes upwards so I'm going to hold out hope that he got a message he was needed (as in this is Chuck's answer to his prayers).  Now it's Donny and the boys together.... so I have to wonder where in the sequence this fits. Every indication is that it's AFTER they've gotten home and changed because the Cas burial scene is in S12 finale clothes.  This suggests that the first episode ends with Cas' burial or there-abouts and suggests the entire first episode they are in 12.23 clothes.  Then we see Sam and Dean are in different clothing when they and Donatello meet Asmodeus on a beach and he Vader-chokes them.  But Jack is not there in that shot.  So is Jack left ALONE in the bunker?  Is that wise?  IDK.  Does Jack come to their rescue?  Because a Prince of Hell is kinda a big deal.   I'm going to bet somehow they either lose Jack again or there's some plotnium reason that Jack isn't there.  Perhaps Jack wanders off looking for his Father again and then comes back in the nick of time to save the boys from Asmodeus (thus pulling a Ruby and saving the boys to feed the fans who think Jack is bad while making a case that Jack is good).  And at somepoint Dean drinks himself a 12 pack while rock music melts his brains, cause he's not in a very good place right now.

In the EP3 bits we frankly see non-Sam/Jack scenes. It's all Missouri Mosley, some wraith (it's got the stick thing) and Patience.  Patience has the death-foreshadowy thing because there's a brief glipse of a dead-Jodie (.54 second mark).  And another scene of Patience doing the nightmare wake-up thing.  Jody beats the wraith, thus proving she's a capable lead actress for her own show (works for me, I'm Team Wayward Sisters).  

And that's about it.  I'm sure there's more but that's what I remember.  They gave a lot away in that preview.  But I like where it's going.

Of course this is just me rearranging all the snippets we saw and putting them in logical sequence.  Nothing to say it actually plays out this way.

And NO! No TL;DR for you.  Read it or not.  I'm not summarizing this time because it's all in the details. 

So excited for the start of the season.  I am glad that fans don't write for this show, I would hate it.  These spoilers sound interesting.  Looks like it is going to be another good season. 

[Casseiopeia]

Just now, catrox14 said:

I thought the guy was good in Arrow but he was a guest actor playing an established comics character.  I have to say I am not thrilled with his acting thus far with Spawn. I j. He needs to become his own character and not  Poor Man's Castiel.

Well to be honest I was channel surfing the other day and landed on a teen slasher movie.  The kind that stars actors you never heard of before and will never again.  Alex was the 3rd lead.  Granted he was playing the dick character in a really bad movie but he was pretty awful.   

So far I am getting a Rainman vibe from Jack.

[Jonesy]

33 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think Asmodeus is ridiculous. He's just annoying thus far. LOL

Well we disagree--I like what I see of Asmodeus so far and by the way like Jack doing the Cas thing too.   Will have to see how it plays out fully but so far so good imo.  PS I did think Calvert was good in Arrow.

Edited September 26, 2017 by Jakes

[RulerofallIsurvey]

6 minutes ago, Diane said:

I am glad that fans don't write for this show, I would hate it. 

Lol!  It would probably be all over the place worse than it already is at times!

[Pondlass1]

18 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think Asmodeus is ridiculous. He's just annoying thus far.

I'll be hankering after a bucket o' KFC every time he comes on screen me thinks.

Looking forward to Donatello.  That actor was so great in Angel.  Not looking forward to mouthy Missouri. Super duper bestest hunter in the whole world Mary is going to get up my nose.  I can tell already.     Why do they have fist fights with devils and demons anyway?  Seems so pointless. 

And we've all been calling him Baby Luci, but he's more like Baby Castiel, isn't he?  Looks like Cas, naive & unworldly like Cas and even wears beige like Cas.  I forget whether angels are actually junkless, but it would've been so much more fun if Cas had been the baby daddy instead of Luci.   S&D would've been proud uncles.  Jack would have little baby wings and help out the brothers when Cas couldn't.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Given this, as @DittyDotDot posted in the Bitch thread,

John mentions that Dean went silent right after the fire and nothing John did seemed to get him to open up. But, when he took the boys to meet Missouri both of them loved her on sight. Sam--who had been crying a lot in the aftermath of the fire--sat happily on Missouri's lap, while Dean talked non-stop. My takeaway was there was something about Missouri that both boys found safe and soothing. Perhaps it was her psychic-ness, I really don't know. He doesn't mention if Dean stops talking again, but knowing what we do from Dead in the Water, we know he does start talking again, so my guess is this was what broke the damn.

Here's the entry about Missouri and the boys:

  Quote

December 17, 1983

I met someone… someone who I think might be a friend, to me and the boys. For the last couple of days I’ve been visiting… well, psychics, I guess would be the term. I wandered past a place, and I don’t know, I just walked in. Two months ago I would have laughed out loud if anyone told me I’d be doing this, but at this point I’m not sure where else to turn. Anyway, I went inside… it was a total scam. I watched this guy read some palms… he’d just parrot back what people were telling him, or give them broad stuff – “someone you love is worried” and they ate it up. Like I said, it was bull, but for some reason, later that afternoon I went to another… then today, I went to Missouri. And the second I walked in, I can’t explain it… it was like we’d been friends for years. She knew every detail, not just of my life, but also of me… my thoughts… fears. She was the first person who didn’t look at me like I was crazy when I told her my story… she just listened, and nodded, and then she told me she believed me.

An hour later I was back… with the boys. For some reason I wanted her to see them, to meet them… maybe to tell me they were okay. They both loved her immediately… Sammy sat in her lap the whole time, smiling, and Dean talked nonstop… he never does that anymore. I don’t know, if it were just me, maybe I wouldn’t trust her, but seeing the boys warm up to her like that… There’s something there. I think she can help me.

I wonder why it's been 12 years since Sam and Dean have seen Missouri?  And if that will be explained at all.   

[DittyDotDot]

55 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I wonder why it's been 12 years since Sam and Dean have seen Missouri?  And if that will be explained at all.   

I did read that Dabb said it would be explained why Missouri has been absent, but he didn't elaborate.

Or are you asking why they dropped her back in S1? As I recall, the actress was suddenly unavailable so they had to punt. That's how Bobby came into being, though, so it worked out in the end, I think. We'll see if it works out bringing her back after so long. After Lucifer, I'm firmly on the "LEAVE THAT SHIT ALONE" train, but I do think there are some interesting possibilities that could come from Missouri, so I'm willing to wait and see what they do with it.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

10 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I did read that Dabb said it would be explained why Missouri has been absent, but he didn't elaborate.

Or are you asking why they dropped her back in S1? As I recall, the actress was suddenly unavailable so they had to punt. That's how Bobby came into being, though, so it worked out in the end, I think. We'll see if it works out bringing her back after so long. After Lucifer, I'm firmly on the "LEAVE THAT SHIT ALONE" train, but I do think there are some interesting possibilities that could come from Missouri, so I'm willing to wait and see what they do with it.

No, I meant in show reason why Sam and Dean haven't been in touch with Missouri for 12 years.  I mean - in show - that's got to be an odd explanation, I think.  I'd heard something about the actress not being available, but that was way after I'd finished S1 in my binge watch and didn't think anything about the character being a one-off or know that she was supposed to be otherwise.  Even with her randomly being back in S13, I don't expect her to be in more than the one episode.  

[DittyDotDot]

50 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

No, I meant in show reason why Sam and Dean haven't been in touch with Missouri for 12 years.  I mean - in show - that's got to be an odd explanation, I think.  I'd heard something about the actress not being available, but that was way after I'd finished S1 in my binge watch and didn't think anything about the character being a one-off or know that she was supposed to be otherwise.  Even with her randomly being back in S13, I don't expect her to be in more than the one episode.  

Well, Dabb promises there will be an in-show explanation. We'll see if it holds water.

I believe Missouri is already confirmed in at least two episodes. She's in EP3 for sure and then I believe she returns for either one or both of the episodes that are supposed to be setting up the spin-off. Her granddaughter, Prudence, is being introduced for the spin-off. I'm not sure her fate after the mid-season finale--I'm kinda thinking they might kill her to set Prudence on her journey--but assuming they don't kill her, she could pop up again later in the season too.

[catrox14]

My headcanon is that Missouri was the fraud I suspected she was and she split town because reasons. Turns out her granddaughter has true psychic skills so she calls in the biys.

I did read an interesting theory elsewhere thay maybe Patience is the grand child of Rufus since her last name is Turner and that maybe Rufus and Missouri hooked up then had a falling out so she didn't want Dean and Sam to know about her fling with Rufus so she kept a distance. Not sure I buy that one.

My preference is that Dean put her on blast for being a total asshole to him lol.

[ILoveReading]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

My headcanon is that Missouri was the fraud I suspected she was and she split town because reasons. Turns out her granddaughter has true psychic skills so she calls in the biys.

This I can buy because she was a terrible psychic.  Dean's instincts are better than her abilities. 

I saw somewhere (I think it was tumblr) that one of the background pictures the police car was marked Omaha.  So its possible this is tied to the incident that took place between Rufus and Bobby. 

[gonzosgirrl]

On 9/25/2017 at 8:02 PM, catrox14 said:

I'm just going to assume that her full name is Mary Sue Campbell Winchester. Give me a freaking break, show.

 

On 9/25/2017 at 7:41 PM, ILoveReading said:

I can already tell Colonel Sanders is going to be annoying. 

Totally stealing both of these. Thanks for giving me something to smile about in this hot mess!

17 hours ago, catrox14 said:

My headcanon is that Missouri was the fraud I suspected she was and she split town because reasons. Turns out her granddaughter has true psychic skills so she calls in the biys.

I did read an interesting theory elsewhere thay maybe Patience is the grand child of Rufus since her last name is Turner and that maybe Rufus and Missouri hooked up then had a falling out so she didn't want Dean and Sam to know about her fling with Rufus so she kept a distance. Not sure I buy that one.

My preference is that Dean put her on blast for being a total asshole to him lol.

I'm betting there will either be a) a ret-con relationship between Rufus and Missouri, given the Turner name, or b) as usual, it's LOL!Canon and none of these writers even remember Rufus' last name and it's a coincidence. My money's on "b".

[SueB]

I thought Rufus' wife was killed due to a mistake Bobby made.  And I thought that it's Patience's father that dies?

[DittyDotDot]

57 minutes ago, SueB said:

I thought Rufus' wife was killed due to a mistake Bobby made.  And I thought that it's Patience's father that dies?

Apparently it was Rufus' daughter who Rufus lost in Omaha, according to Supernatural: Bobby Singer's Guide to Hunting, although, that's never been clarified on screen.

I'd prefer if they didn't tie this one back to Rufus. I don't need some contrived connection for this to be meaningful. 

Edited September 27, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Jonesy]

More I think about it, the more I like the I-tune preview with the Jack story and how it makes Cas  like a dad who Jack is obviously emulating in manner and even dress.  Gives our Cas another color to play with and throws a powerful being that the boys try to steer the right way.  I think the storyline has much promise. 

Edited September 27, 2017 by Jakes

[Casseiopeia]

I'm posting this here because there is a mild spoiler....

 

[catrox14]

37 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Apparently it was Rufus' daughter who Rufus lost in Omaha, according to Supernatural: Bobby Singer's Guide to Hunting, although, that's never been clarified on screen.

I'd prefer if they didn't try this one back to Rufus. I don't need some contrived connection for this to be meaningful. 

Just to add to that this blurb from SuperWiki (which take with a grain of salt because IMO it's become somewhat unreliable

Quote

In the book Supernatural: Bobby Singer's Guide to Hunting Bobby explains that in Omaha, he and Rufus needed a get-away driver and even though Rufus forbade Bobby from doing it, Bobby called in Rufus's daughter and she wound up getting killed.

If that's reliable which it may not be, if his daughter was old enough to be a get away driver then she may have been old enough to get pregnant and have a child who had Patience, because I can't imagine Bobby suggesting a pre-adolescent be a get away driver, but who knows.

Maybe Missouri and Rufus were actually siblings and they had a falling out, and Missouri was really Patience great aunt vs grandmother. I dunno, I hope it's not tied to Rufus but you never know.

[SueB]

6 hours ago, Jakes said:

More I think about it, the more I like the I-tune preview with the Jack story and how it makes Cas  like a dad who Jack is obviously emulating in manner and even dress.  Gives our Cas another color to play with and throws a powerful being that the boys try to steer the right way.  I think the storyline has much promise. 

Yes. This.  I would LOVE for Cas to get a 'child'.  Jack is too powerful, however.  So that he's going to run into the same problems we've had in the past in terms of some plotonium would have to be used to limit his abilities. 

[SueB]

Looking at just the guest list, I think the folks at Warner Brothers must have opened the purse string from the pilot and possibly the flagship.  There are a LOT of guest actors.  It also may explain why they let Crowley go.  Because they needed a new direction and at Mark Sheppard's status, he probably had a relatively significant salary. He was a regular and had longevity.  It's the longevity that often causes issues.  Trading Jack for Crowley is likely a cost savings.  And IF they limit Pellegrino it might work out.  BUT, they've added a Michael and Asmodeus.  And I certainly hope we get to keep Donatello every once in a while.  Of course I'd LOVE Rowena to come back.  And finally, we've got Mary. I'm a little pissed that Calvert got regular status for S13 and Sam Smith did not for S12.  Was that poor negotiation on her people's part?  Calvert had more status?  IDK.  It just seems to me to be a disconnect.  

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, SueB said:

Looking at just the guest list, I think the folks at Warner Brothers must have opened the purse string from the pilot and possibly the flagship.  There are a LOT of guest actors.  It also may explain why they let Crowley go.  Because they needed a new direction and at Mark Sheppard's status, he probably had a relatively significant salary. He was a regular and had longevity.  It's the longevity that often causes issues.  Trading Jack for Crowley is likely a cost savings.  And IF they limit Pellegrino it might work out.  BUT, they've added a Michael and Asmodeus.  And I certainly hope we get to keep Donatello every once in a while.  Of course I'd LOVE Rowena to come back.  And finally, we've got Mary. I'm a little pissed that Calvert got regular status for S13 and Sam Smith did not for S12.  Was that poor negotiation on her people's part?  Calvert had more status?  IDK.  It just seems to me to be a disconnect.  

Where are you seeing the guest list?