Spoilers With Speculation

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Bessie said:

I don't believe the show people think in those terms. No one is "stealing" any storyline. They get passed around and paralleled and repeated, sure, but not stolen.

By that logic, castiel stole the lucifer storyline from sam. I don't think storylines are owned by any one character. 

Whether the show thinks of it that way or not, that is essentially the end result, at least for this viewer. Maybe stolen isn't exactly correct, but handing the SL and arcs over to another character without the resolution involving the original character. happens all the time and it's never a good choice IMO, especially when it's been built up over a long process to be heading in a logical direction and then NOPE, JUST KIDDING and not in a good way. 

I don't see Cas being excised from the Spawnifer SL as being logical and it's certainly not good for Cas' characterization because he was made to look a fool by crossing over into the AU to kill Lucifer, which was NEVER a part of the plan.

If Sam is going to end up raising Lucifer's Spawn then he's tied back to Lucifer again, but not as Lucifer's vessel. 

I had a random thought this morning. Could Cas and Kelly have exchanged vessels and it was really Kelly!Cas  that crossed over into the AU to kill Lucifer and was actually who Lucifer killed. 

It would make sense for her to want to kill her rapist who impregnated her with the devil's spawn and who she doesn't want to be involved in her spawn's upbringing. Maybe Cas is in there on the bed in Kelly's meatsuit?  But that would mean Courtney Ford is the new Castiel and well....I'm not down with that for more than like 2 episodes. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

 And since we've already seen Dean be a surrogate father, it's redundant ground for Dean so...it seems to me, it's for Sam. 

I think Jack is gonna be a version of Amara 2.0 for Sam, just done bigger and flashier. Dean will be co-parent in the same way he was co-general in the Finale. Dabb is fucking ridiculous at this point speaking in plural.

[Wayward Son]

46 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And since we've already seen Dean be a surrogate father, it's redundant ground for Dean so...it seems to me, it's for Sam. 

 

 

Honestly, whether it's both brothers taking over the storyline or just Sam makes little difference to me. Either way it has the same result i.e Castiel's primary arc has been taken from him and given to another character leaving him without any part in the upcoming plots. 

 

32 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

TBH, I don't expect Sam and Dean to truly parent Jack. I suspect they'll try because they need him to get Mary back from the Alternate, but I'd guess something will happen--probably surrounding lies and obfuscation coming to light--and he'll end up running off pretty early in the season. The boys will probably spend the first half of the season looking for him while hunting randoms on the side. They'll probably find him in the mid-season finale after he opens up the rift to let Lucifer back in our world. I mean, at some point, he'll have to spend time with his pappa, right? That way he can decide if he wants to be good or bad... .

But, glass half full-ish, since they're being so hush-hush about Cass right now, we don't really know if there is a place for him or not. Maybe he'll have a better storyline than trying to parent the Spawn only to have him look the fool--AGAIN--when he inevitably runs off to find himself.  

I'm more glass half empty! Based on the history of the show itself and Dabb in particular I'm now expecting Jack to be a force of good! On this show, the Winchesters are never allowed to be wrong (unless it's a Winchester vs Winchester conflict in which Dean is always right) and Castiel is certainly never right. Therefore, the parental role is gonna shift to the brothers! The narrative will rewrite history and ignore the fact it was Cas who fought for Jack to be born powers intact and focus on how wonderful, caring and understanding Sam and Dean are to have allowed him to keep his powers and ultimately meet his potential. I'm fairly certain if they intended to make Jack evil they'd have kept the storyline focused on Cas as another example of what a screw up the writers consider him. 

Edited July 16, 2017 by Wayward Son

[gonzosgirrl]

27 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I had a random thought this morning. Could Cas and Kelly have exchanged vessels and it was really Kelly!Cas  that crossed over into the AU to kill Lucifer and was actually who Lucifer killed. 

It would make sense for her to want to kill her rapist who impregnated her with the devil's spawn and who she doesn't want to be involved in her spawn's upbringing. Maybe Cas is in there on the bed in Kelly's meatsuit?  But that would mean Courtney Ford is the new Castiel and well....I'm not down with that for more than like 2 episodes. 

There was angel grace/light and burnt wings on the ground. Honestly, I'll be disappointed if that is ret-conned into anything else but an angel dead on the ground. But with LOL!Canon Dabb in charge, nothing will surprise me.

 

ETA: I'll bet the farm that Sproutifer recognizes Uncle Sam as his father's perfect vessel, thus bonding with him while reviling/rejecting Dean. My only spec at this point is how many times per episode Sam sighs/wrinkles his brow at Dean's intolerance before schooling him on how to relate to a kid who is 'different'.

Edited July 16, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[rue721]

10 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I suspect they'll try because they need him to get Mary back from the Alternate, but I'd guess something will happen--probably surrounding lies and obfuscation coming to light--and he'll end up running off pretty early in the season. The boys will probably spend the first half of the season looking for him while hunting randoms on the side. They'll probably find him in the mid-season finale after he opens up the rift to let Lucifer back in our world. I mean, at some point, he'll have to spend time with his pappa, right? That way he can decide if he wants to be good or bad...

I agree, more or less, but I think the timeline might be a bit faster than that, and I think there might be more interaction between the AU and Our World, too, in order to give Mark Pellegrino and Samantha Smith something to do.

It's also possible that the Winchesters will spend like 15 mins "parenting" Jack, only to have Lucifer abscond with him pretty early (as opposed to Jack simply running off).

Honestly, I would expect Jack to *want* to be with his father, given that his mother is dead. The Winchesters will probably tell Jack to stay away from Lucifer, and Jack won't listen or Lucifer will kidnap him or something, and then we won't see the two of them (or at least won't see Jack) for a while.

And to be fair, although I despise and am bored by Lucifer, he is the one character on the show who I would be at least somewhat interested to see as a parent. He's such a child himself, that I can't really imagine it. Or, I can imagine it, but it would be interesting to see how Jack would turn out under him. He might end up being especially reasonable and down to earth ;) That would be kind of hilarious. I don't think the show has the patience to go that route, but *shrug.*

I agree that I don't see where Castiel would fit into all this. He's technically Lucifer's brother and Jack's uncle, but the show has done so much to downplay that (and to downplay that Castiel is also Chuck's son) that I doubt that that's relevant. The show hasn't known what to do for Cas for years and years, though, so that's kind of a "same shit, different day" kind of thing.

[DittyDotDot]

17 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I agree, more or less, but I think the timeline might be a bit faster than that, and I think there might be more interaction between the AU and Our World, too, in order to give Mark Pellegrino and Samantha Smith something to do.

It very well could be they open the rift pretty soon, I just figured they'd do both universes in parallel to give both Samantha Smith and Pelligrino something to do, but also keep them separate for the first half of the season. I also suspect any blasts-from-the-past will happen at this time since they'll be absent the history and connections , then it's almost pointless for them to interact with Sam and Dean and a good way for the show to keep the Alternate interesting for the long-term fans.

Although, I'd really like and episode where someone from the other side shows up--like Ellen or Pamela or even a one-off character like Ronald with the laser eyes--and they at first think they're a ghost or something like that. It could be something slipped through the rift when no one was paying attention, it was open for a very long time and all.

17 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Honestly, I would expect Jack to *want* to be with his father, given that his mother is dead. The Winchesters will probably tell Jack to stay away from Lucifer, and Jack won't listen or Lucifer will kidnap him or something, and then we won't see the two of them (or at least won't see Jack) for a while.

My theory? They'll probably tell him half truths because they're too worried what he'd do with whole truths. Jack will find out and decide they are not to be trusted and run off to find himself. I don't know, in some ways I think it might play out a lot like the Antichrist did, but the "parenting" will be drug out over three to four episodes, instead of just one, and there will be follow up on trying to find the Spawn instead of just hoping he'll be good. Plus, the lies will be bigger and probably be a source of conflict between Sam and Dean.

Edited July 16, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

24 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

There was angel grace/light and burnt wings on the ground. Honestly, I'll be disappointed if that is ret-conned into anything else but an angel dead on the ground. But with LOL!Canon Dabb in charge, nothing will surprise me.

 

I'm looking for any way for Cas to not be really most sincerely dead. Like of all the deaths that happen on this show that should stick but don't, why does Cas' have to stick? And it's worse because having Crowley and Cas both die in the same episode with no time for the audience to properly grieve or even process their deaths is shitty IMO. I don't want Cas dead at all. I don't want an alternate Cas for more than a couple of episodes. I want OUR!Cas back, not some reprogrammed Cas.

[gonzosgirrl]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

I'm looking for any way for Cas to not be really most sincerely dead. Like of all the deaths that happen on this show that should stick but don't, why does Cas' have to stick? And it's worse because having Crowley and Cas both die in the same episode with no time for the audience to properly grieve or even process their deaths is shitty IMO. I don't want Cas dead at all. I don't want an alternate Cas for more than a couple of episodes. I want OUR!Cas back, not some reprogrammed Cas.

I'm not against Cas being not sincerely dead, but for me, it has to make sense within the canon of the show. They've thrown so much out the window, one of the few consistencies left is that sparking/lightning=demon death, and white light/burned wings=angel death. I rolled my eyes for days over Rowena's resurrection-via-spell from having her neck snapped, but at least there was no precedence to contradict it. So unless Chuck makes it so, or they really do give Sproutifer equal-to-God powers (which I will eye-roll til I die), I want whoever it was that Lucifer angel-bladed, really most sincerely dead.

 

ETA: I agree 100% that having Crowley and Cas both die in the same episode was a huge disservice to both characters, and especially to Mark S as an actor, since we know he's not coming back and Misha is. Andrew Dabb can fuck off forever for that.

Edited July 16, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[rue721]

Maybe they'll play it similar to Purgatory, in that they'll have Mary punch her own way out of the AU, show up in our world, and then we see the AU mostly through her flashbacks.

Hopefully, we'll get some blasts from the past, and hopefully the show will even use the opportunity to re-introduce long-gone characters (Ellen?!) back into the world of the show. I admit that I am corny as hell, but my pitch to the writers would be to have Mary have raised some other kids in the AU -- either her own bio kids or someone else's (Jo?!). I would be interested to see Sam and Dean interact with people who were raised as hunters by their (AU) mother, even if these other hypothetical characters are not 100% counterparts to Sam and Dean.

Anyway, I think it's likely that Spawnifer opens up the rift to get to Lucifer, and things go awry from there. I don't think the show will hold that until the midseason, though. I think Mary is likely to be back by the end of the premier, and Spawnifer will have reopened the rift himself by the end of the third episode. They like their three-episode arcs, so I think we'll see some kind of pretty good climax by that point, anyway.

The show seems to like to divide the seasons in half nowadays, so I think the front half will be more or less the whole arc for Lucifer and Spawnifer and then the back half will be some other Big Bad that we'll find out about in the early part of S13. Maybe the dumbass AU angels or something (please no).

35 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

They'll probably tell him half truths because they're too worried what he'd do with whole truths. Jack will find out and decide they are not to be trusted and run off to find himself.

I agree, in that I think they need to tell Jack basically half-truths. They can't be like, "your dad tried to destroy the world, and when we stopped him, he imprisoned and raped Sam relentlessly." If nothing else, that will make Jack worry that he's destined to be evil, too. And he's already got the guilt over his birth causing his own mother's death to deal with. They've got to try and make him believe he's got the capacity for good, if they want him to be good (and I think convincing him of that might in itself be a pretty hard sell).

They might flat out lie about who his father is, which would be interesting. They could just tell him that his father is Castiel, their BFF and a good person. But I doubt that they will, because even though the Winchesters obfuscate a lot, they rarely just flat out lie about facts like that to people within their inner circle. Even if they do, he'll inevitably find out the truth. I'm sure you're right that there's going to be a rift between Jack and the Winchesters pretty quickly.

But in any case, I think Jack is more liable to search out his father than to run off to be alone. He's essentially alone anyway, so there would be no point to being alone some more. And he's a kid -- he'll search out some guidance, some kind of parent-figure.

In the early part of the season, this is what I imagine for Jack's state of mind :P -->

 

[DittyDotDot]

35 minutes ago, rue721 said:

But in any case, I think Jack is more liable to search out his father than to run off to be alone. 

That's what I meant. I think he'll go off to find himself via finding his father.

35 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Anyway, I think it's likely that Spawnifer opens up the rift to get to Lucifer, and things go awry from there. I don't think the show will hold that until the midseason, though. I think Mary is likely to be back by the end of the premier, and Spawnifer will have reopened the rift himself by the end of the third episode. They like their three-episode arcs, so I think we'll see some kind of pretty good climax by that point, anyway.

If either Sam or Dean were in the Alternate, I'd agree with you whole-hardheartedly--the show really is resistant to having Sam and Dean separated for any length of time--but since it's Mary over there, I think they might go for it for a few episodes at least. It's not like Mary is going to be around even if she's not in the Alternate and this gives them a good excuse why she's not. Also, I'm guessing how they're going to explore the Alternate, as Dabb said they would, is through Mary being over there. 

So, today, I'm leaning more towards them doing what I thought they should've done when Dean was in Purgatory at the start of S8--that is; show us both stories in parallel for a few episodes until they converge at some point. I certainly hope they don't do flashbacks. They don't really have a good track record on that sort of thing, IMO.

Anyway, they may not last until the mid-season finale, but I won't be surprised if they don't drag it out far longer than necessary. Seems like that's kinda Dabb's thing. 

35 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I agree, in that I think they need to tell Jack basically half-truths. They can't be like, "your dad tried to destroy the world, and when we stopped him, he imprisoned and raped Sam relentlessly." If nothing else, that will make Jack worry that he's destined to be evil, too. And he's already got the guilt over his birth causing his own mother's death to deal with. They've got to try and make him believe he's got the capacity for good, if they want him to be good (and I think convincing him of that might in itself be a pretty hard sell).

Oh, I'm not advocating they tell him half-truths. Personally, I think it's just a set up for things to go wrong. I think they shouldn't lie to him, but instead try to help him understand that it's he gets to define who he is, not his parentage. Lying to him will only come back to bite them in the ass later, but, this being Supernatural, I expect that's what they'll do. And, I expect Sam and Dean to not agree on how much truth needs to be told so there is a source of brotherly conflict--but not too much. They'll probably, mostly, be on the same page.

35 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Hopefully, we'll get some blasts from the past, and hopefully the show will even use the opportunity to re-introduce long-gone characters (Ellen?!) back into the world of the show.

This is my only real interest in the Alternate. I don't really care about the war over there or that Mary is locked over there with Lucifer--I especially could care less about Lucifer--I just want to see some good twists on some old characters. I mean, they could really have some fun over there, IMO. Cass could be in a female host; Rufus could still have his daughter around; Jo's father could be alive; hey, maybe one of the Ruby's could make an appearance or maybe Meg 1.0...there really are so many cool roads they could go down and still leave our beloved characters in-tact. 

Edited July 16, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

I think there is a good chance Spawnifer already knows he's Lucifer's child. I'm thinking about how angels  can recognize each other even in different meatsuits and since he's part archangel with more inherrent powers that seraphims like Cas, I think he innately knows who his birth father is (although I still maintain he's got to have some of President Jeff's DNA in him cause you know sperm). 

ANYHOOOOO

I think it's part of angelic powers and their grace.  So I think he knows that Cas helped him and that Lucifer is his father.  IMO, he determined that he would be born which is why he didn't let Kelly die when she tried to kill herself. I think he wanted Castiel to remain alive to make sure Kelly and he were protected that's why he used the power of himself and Cas to kill Dagon.  I thought he looked scared but also aware of HIMSELF in that first meeting with Sam. 

SWERVE: Spawnifer doesn't know that he's Lucifer's child but Kelly left a video telling him that he is the son of President Jeff and leaves to find the President and tell him he's his kid. LOL  Honestly, I would be okay with the plot going that way because then it brings up the stuff about LOTUS, the boys being in prison and why all those people are dead and gone. It would be interesting if the boys were faced with letting him think he's President Jeff's kid or tell him Lucifer is his father.  Of course the down side is that takes Cas even further out of the picture but it would get Spawnifer out of the bunker with a compelling reason.  But fat chance that actually happens.

[MysteryGuest]

I love Cas, but if having him come back altered somehow keeps him on the show, and gives Misha something interesting to do for once, I wouldn't have a problem with that.  I think ultimately, he would still bond with the Winchesters.  

I'm assuming we'll get Bobby back for at least a couple episodes.  Though it's entirely possible Lucifer kills him immediately for trying to help Mary.  I don't see her getting out of the AU without Jack opening up the portal again.  Of course, that could also happen right away.  

I really don't have any interest in Sam and Dean getting drawn into the angel/demon war going on in the AU, but it won't surprise me if Dabb goes there.  I hope we at least get some good old-fashioned monster hunts in the mix.

[companionenvy]

I'd be excited to see alt!Cas (whether played by Misha or someone else). What I do not want is alt Cas (or alt!most other characters) at the expense of actual Cas. 

It might be fun to see an alternate Balthazar or Rufus without resurrecting our versions, because they were enjoyable characters who weren't around for all that long and don't have a deep emotional history with either the Winchesters or the fans. It would also be interesting (although it will never happen, for casting reasons) to see an alternate John Winchester, who had a pretty narratively satisfying end in our world, but whose appearance in the alt-world would create a dramatically resonant situation for Sam and Dean.  

 

Seeing alt-Bobby, though, was a total miss for me. I liked Bobby a lot, but mostly because of his relationship with the boys, which simply doesn't exist here. I also feel like we got to spend a lot of time with his character during his years on the show, which means the idea of hearing "balls" or "idjits" again doesn't in itself thrill me with glee. Plus, we actually left our Bobby in a jam in heaven a few seasons ago, so his arc still needs addressing. Seeing an alt-Charlie or even alt-Jo would just be kind of sad to me; it doesn't make our versions any less dead, so other than ratcheting up the angst, I don't see that it would serve much of a purpose. Might as well just introduce a new character with some similar characteristics.

 

So, while I think it could be more than just a gimmick to see an alt!Cas who was still a full-on Warrior of God interact with Dean, I won't be happy if that is the only flavor of Cas we get. I might be able to deal with it if our Cas had gotten a reasonably good death. As it is, it would just be adding insult to injury.

 

Not sure if these spoilers make me more or less hopeful that our Cas is returning. Misha's comments make me less hopeful, since you're right that he sounds like he's probably referring to a scene where he is just a dead body. But Dabb's reiterating that no one of Cas, Crowley and Rowena is necessarily dead makes me think that one of them, at least, is probably alive, and if it is going to be only one, I'd put my money on Cas. 

[Pondlass1]

Wow - lots of interesting speculation.  Has anyone here ever got it right? 

We all seem to have a lot more imagination than Andrew and his writing team.

[ILoveReading]

I always thought an interesting AU would be a world where the population knows monsters exist and hunting is a legitimate profession, with a pay check, medical plan, pension, etc. 

[catrox14]

22 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I always thought an interesting AU would be a world where the population knows monsters exist and hunting is a legitimate profession, with a pay check, medical plan, pension, etc. 

Ohhhh Dean Smith could be running his own hunter company and he would make sure they all had health insurance! LOL  I would be down for a Dean Smith hunter story LOL. I always liked the Sam in that episode a lot, too.

5 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

Wow - lots of interesting speculation.  Has anyone here ever got it right? 

We all seem to have a lot more imagination than Andrew and his writing team.

I've gotten a few things right. I was very proud of myself for calling the Stynes being the Frankenstein family when they were first introduced, like right out of the gate. LOL

[gonzosgirrl]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I've gotten a few things right. I was very proud of myself for calling the Stynes being the Frankenstein family when they were first introduced, like right out of the gate. LOL

That's awesome! I didn't twig to it at all until it was revealed. I don't recall anyone on IMDb calling it, either (though someone may well have). Good on you!

I remember in my binge watch wondering if Sam had a mental break after Dean disappeared in 7x22 and Amelia was really a figment of his imagination, lol.  I remember reading a post somewhere not too long ago that said the same thing and was gobsmacked that I wasn't the only one who thought so. Their reasoning was quite extensive and made so much sense, I'm still not 100% convinced she wasn't.

Edited July 17, 2017 by gonzosgirrl
has/had, not the same word

[Wayward Son]

32 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

That's awesome! I didn't twig to it at all until it was revealed. I don't recall anyone on IMDb calling it, either (though someone may well have). Good on you!

I remember in my binge watch wondering if Sam had a mental break after Dean disappeared in 7x22 and Amelia was really a figment of his imagination, lol.  I remember reading a post somewhere not too long ago that said the same thing and was gobsmacked that I wasn't the only one who thought so. Their reasoning was quite extensive and made so much sense, I'm still not 100% convinced she wasn't.

Didn't Dean send a fake text from her phone or something? It'd have been hard for him to do that with a hallucinations phone ;)

[Wayward Son]

I'm not sure if this twitter user has anything to do with the show, but I saw this on thelittletreehoppers tumblr. Apparently the first episode is titled Lost and Found 

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/cutierobandrich/status/887021555015921666

 

If true is this a reference to them finding Mary and Lucifer by association? She's the only one I can think of who would fit the description "lost"

Edited July 17, 2017 by Wayward Son

[gonzosgirrl]

31 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:a

Didn't Dean send a fake text from her phone or something? It'd have been hard for him to do that with a hallucinations phone ;)

No, he just sent a fake text identifying it as from Amelia, he didn't have her phone. Sam told Dean her name, but she didn't have to be 'real' for that.

[MysteryGuest]

27 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

If true is this a reference to them finding Mary and Lucifer by association? She's the only one I can think of who would fit the description "lost"

I think it could pertain to either Mary or Cas...or both.  They're lost in different ways, but I think it still qualifies.  Maybe they have a hunter's funeral for Cas, and then "find" him again, brought back by Jack.  I will be surprised if they find a way back into the AU so quickly to rescue Mary, but it's possible.  I guess it will depend on just what the major story arcs are going to be this year.  

[DittyDotDot]

11 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

Wow - lots of interesting speculation.  Has anyone here ever got it right? 

We all seem to have a lot more imagination than Andrew and his writing team.

We've all been right and wrong quite a bit.

• I remember jokingly speculating that Chuck and Amara would hug it out in the end based off the theory there would be no real solution to the Amara problem.
• I also remember calling that Demon Dean would be done and over very early in the season.
• I was pretty far off on what they did with Mary in the end, but seem to recall saying she'd probably run off pretty early in the season.
• Last season, I remember thinking @catrox14 had lost it when she speculated that Crowley might have saved Nick in S5 and had his body stowed away all those years just so the show could bring Pellegrino back. I was like, no way, that doesn't make any sense...it's just too far, but then I almost fell out of my chair when that was exactly what happened.

So, yeah, I think most of us has called something right over the years. A friend of mine likes to reread through this thread every year just to see how much we got right and wrong. It's funny when she reminds me of some of the really far-out there theories and the amount of crazy talk that went on around them.

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I remember in my binge watch wondering if Sam had a mental break after Dean disappeared in 7x22 and Amelia was really a figment of his imagination, lol.  I remember reading a post somewhere not too long ago that said the same thing and was gobsmacked that I wasn't the only one who thought so. Their reasoning was quite extensive and made so much sense, I'm still not 100% convinced she wasn't.

That's funny because I remember a good chunk of us over at TWoP were wondering the same thing up until we met her father. I was still hoping there would be more too it all, but I think it was at that point I decided she was actually real. Which was very disappointing in some ways, and not in others.

[ILoveReading]

I actually wondered for a time if Benny might be imaginary because of the first scene where they met up with Cas.  If you (general you) watch closely, when Benny say hi, Cas doesn't answer.  He just looks at Dean and asks how he found him.

Then this exchange

Quote

DEAN
Yeah, if you want to be on the nose about it, sure.

CASTIEL
No. I'm perfectly sane. But, then, 94% of psychotics think they're perfectly sane, so I guess we'd have to ask ourselves, "what is sane?"

DEAN
That's a good question.

BENNY
Why'd you bail on Dean?

DEAN
Dude –

BENNY
The way I hear it, you two hit monster land, and hot wings here took off. I figure he owes you some backstory.

DEAN
Look, we were surrounded, okay? Some freak jumped Cas. Obviously, he kicked its ass, right?

 

Cas saying that most psychotics think their sane , and Cas never directly speaks to Benny.   

I predicted the Darkness.  (Not the name) but that removing the mark would unleash something. 

I also predicted Dean killing death, how the Mary storyline would go.

Edited July 18, 2017 by ILoveReading

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

I'm not sure if this twitter user has anything to do with the show, but I saw this on thelittletreehoppers tumblr. Apparently the first episode is titled Lost and Found 

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/cutierobandrich/status/887021555015921666

 

If true is this a reference to them finding Mary and Lucifer by association? She's the only one I can think of who would fit the description "lost"

Maybe it's a reference to them playing a sort of Hide-and-Seek with the Spawn?

I really don't know. There's lots of possibilities with a title like that.

[catrox14]

20 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Last season, I remember thinking @catrox14 had lost it when she speculated that Crowley might have saved Nick in S5 and had his body stowed away all those years just so the show could bring Pellegrino back. I was like, no way, that doesn't make any sense...it's just too far, but then I almost fell out of my chair when that was exactly what happened.

Holy crap. I forgot I made that speculation. LOL. But yup, now that you mention it. LOL I did!

Was that back when I couldn't figure out the logic of why Sam wouldn't have seen himself in the Lucifer they brought out of the CAge to Limbo?

Edited July 18, 2017 by catrox14

[SueB]

12 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

Wow - lots of interesting speculation.  Has anyone here ever got it right? 

We all seem to have a lot more imagination than Andrew and his writing team.

I'm VERY proud of the fact that I 'called it' for Dean's karaoke song to be "I'm too Sexy" for "10.1 Black".  I feel I may have peaked with that speculation ... but I got it in one shot!

Edited July 18, 2017 by SueB

[catrox14]

31 minutes ago, SueB said:

I'm VERY proud of the fact that I 'called it' for Dean's karaoke song to be "I'm too Sexy" for "10.1 Black".  I feel I may have peaked with that speculation ... but I got it in one shot!

HA! Well done!

[ZennyKenny]

Last season:
- Mary "do I hunt or stay in the kitchen because those are literally my only two options" Winchester
- British Men (but we totally have women too!) of Letters
- Next on Days Of Our Lives: Lucifer's romance
- You guys like idiot Cas right? RIGHT?

This season:
- Cas raising Jack- lol psyche!!
- Winchester parenting
- Jack is literally The Darkness 2.0
- Lucifer wants his baby back (ribs)
- Alternate Universe shenanigans

Bonus:
- Monsters?! Wtf are those? Oh alright fine, here have yet another vampire episode.
- Monsters?! Wtf are those? Oh alright fine, here have yet another werewolf episode.

 

...yeah it's hard to figure out which season I care about less.

[Pondlass1]

10 hours ago, ZennyKenny said:

.yeah it's hard to figure out which season I care about less.

I laughed at your post @ZennyKenny... then I cried.  Coz it's so true.  Seasons 11 and 12 have been the worst for me....  they set up stories and just let them fizzle.

Season 13 opening scenes can be scripted by any one of us here.

Sam's at the laptop, Dean walks in with morning coffee, "Any news on mum, Lucifer, Cas, Crowley, wayward whatevers... oh, and did you change Baby Jack's diaper... ??'

Sam taps about on laptop "Nope.  But  something's weird.  There's this movie ....'Baby Driver' "

Dean grins: 'Is it about me?"

Sam taps on laptop and furrows his brow, 'No, you're not even mentioned, Dean"

"Get the grenade launcher!!"

[ZennyKenny]

2 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

I laughed at your post @ZennyKenny... then I cried.  Coz it's so true.  Seasons 11 and 12 have been the worst for me....  they set up stories and just let them fizzle.

That's so true! I mean, am I supposed to believe that Lucifer killing Cas was that huge "consequence" for killing Billie & breaking the deal she had with the Winchesters? Cos... nah. Also, are all the other reapers cool with the Winchesters killing Death? It was just Billie who held a grudge? Also also, I'm kinda pissed that we never got to see the Empty. I mean the threat itself was "empty" because you can't permakill a main character, but I figured Dean would end up thrown in there and then they'd magically make up a way for him to escape, like they did with Purgatory.

[Wayward Son]

21 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

That's so true! I mean, am I supposed to believe that Lucifer killing Cas was that huge "consequence" for killing Billie & breaking the deal she had with the Winchesters? Cos... nah. Also, are all the other reapers cool with the Winchesters killing Death? It was just Billie who held a grudge? Also also, I'm kinda pissed that we never got to see the Empty. I mean the threat itself was "empty" because you can't permakill a main character, but I figured Dean would end up thrown in there and then they'd magically make up a way for him to escape, like they did with Purgatory.

I actually feel the opposite! I want them to resurrect Cas, since If I recall correctly he wasn't threatened with the empty, and that's the end of the death and resurrections on this show. I'd love for death to become a legitimate threat to the brothers again because they're living with the knowledge that next time it is actually for keeps. 

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

Sam's at the laptop, Dean walks in with morning coffee, "Any news on mum, Lucifer, Cas, Crowley, wayward whatevers... oh, and did you change Baby Jack's diaper... ??'

I'm trying to fathom what they will do with Spawnifer if he has no control over his human bodily functions in the overgrown meatsuit he came out as. LOL Like do they just buy Depends or something? LOL

Like why was there a wet footprint of Spawnifer when he seemed to come out as a Wavelength of Celestial Intent. And seriously how is Kelly in one piece at all after giving birth to a full grown person? Did Spawnifer put her all back together? Did Spawnifer hit the oxygenated air and just grow exponentially in the 10 minutes he was alive? What was Mary doing between the time she was knocked out. Like why did she just leave Kelly and the manchild?  There is zero sense to that entire thing.

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I actually feel the opposite! I want them to resurrect Cas, since If I recall correctly he wasn't threatened with the empty, and that's the end of the death and resurrections on this show. I'd love for death to become a legitimate threat to the brothers again because they're living with the knowledge that next time it is actually for keeps. 

Cas was never threatened with the Empty because it's probably meaningless for angels anyway. 

I don't see where "cosmic consequences" were ever in play for Cas for killing Billie other than one more angel on angel murder since Reapers are Angels.  Cas didn't make the blood deal, the boys did. The only thing killing Billie did was stop her from reaping one or all of the Winchesters. She couldn't kill them because Rules" , which is another reason that never made any sense.  The boys had to die for the deal to matter so how was that gonna happen. Were they only zombies between their deaths in the prison and up to Midnight when supposedly they would turn into pumpkins or what?

[trxr4kids]

34 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Did Spawnifer hit the oxygenated air and just grow exponentially in the 10 minutes he was alive?

If I remember my Attack of the Fifty Foot Women and Honey I Blew Up the Baby trivia correctly, high voltage power lines were most likely involved.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, trxr4kids said:

If I remember my Attack of the Fifty Foot Women and Honey I Blew Up the Baby trivia correctly, high voltage power lines were most likely involved.

LOL

I just really do wonder what kind of feedback Dabb et al were getting that they though this is a SL fans wanted to see. Like I realize this fandom can be divided about the characters, who they want back, who they want dead etc etc,  but I can't fathom even 50% of an already divided audience clamoring for the boys to suddenly be My Two Dads, and I highly doubt that faction  wanted them to be dealing with a manchild. I would imagine it was more like "Oh it would be so great to see the boys and/or TFW have to help raise a cute little baby or toddler or even a tween, but not the Devil's overgrown Spawn. If it was something that came only out of the writers room, holy crap what a stupid idea that someone needed to kill with fire. 

If they wanted to explore Sam being a parent why do it with the Devil's Spawn?  We already know Sam was against killing it from the get go. Why not have him continue to become closer with Claire or maybe even have him find out he had kid with Amelia that he never know about. Like maybe she got pregnant during their last get together in s8 and something happens to Amelia and Don, then Sam gets a call from someone who says this kid in CPS is his. Let him figure that out.  

 

Cas still is the only character with this Spawnifer SL makes a lick of sense. It would be another aspect of humanity for Cas to come to a greater understanding beyond babysitting an infant for one night and dealing with Jimmy's daughter. There is a level of irony and it's mirrored with the Lily Sunder situation. And never mind that Cas spent all that time protecting Spawnifer, but NAH...WTF.

I don't get it. 

Edited July 18, 2017 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

I don`believe it will be parenting so much as speechifying and moralizing with a healthy dose of pontificating. Dean will have reservations against this and that so to create "conflict" and have the yearly theme on how he does feelings wrong but he will be easily overruled anyway. Season 12 had him folding all over the place, too.

Spawnifer will be Amara 2.0, somewhat curious about the world and occasionally in a child-like mood but with bouts of temper and displays of his powers. Now granted, I don`t expect the bond that Sam will have with him to be literally the same as Dean had with Amara because I can`t see the sexual component being thrown in here but narratively it will probably be alike. 

Maybe once Mary gets back, she will join Sam in a quasi-parenting angle with Spawnifer with Lucifer playing tug-of-war as the biological parent. 

I agree that if they don`t resurrect our Cas pretty much right away, he will lose the storyline to Sam because Spawnifer will imprint on Sam or something.

From everything we have so far I`d say Lucifer is gonna be the main focus of the Season. Spawn might be a prominent recurring role but it looks more like he is there to serve Lucy`s storyline. Even the AU with mainly angels can easily connect to Lucifer. The next main player ought to be Sam. Mary is a wild card, depends on whatever they make happen with Lucifer in the AU. Cas is an even bigger wildcard because we don`t know which version enters the fray at which point. But at least the set-up is there to bring him in a Lucifer-storyline easily. With Dean, they really have to struggle to come up with something right now. Remains to be seen if they try.   

Edited July 18, 2017 by Aeryn13

[AwesomO4000]

Some old stuff... I've been off the grid-ish from here for a bit. Sorry...

 

On 7/15/2017 at 3:33 PM, ahrtee said:

I never got the impression that Michael was running things (especially giving Zachariah orders).

I'm fairly certain that that was Michael giving Zach orders in PoNR. My impression was also that it was Michael's idea to resurrect Adam as bait or as an alternate host.

On 7/15/2017 at 3:41 PM, catrox14 said:

... I don't think it was on Michael's orders and it really doesn't make sense for Michael to seek to destroy humanity when God's orders were for angels to love humanity and Michael always followed God's orders. He cast Lucifer into Hell at God's command. He kept angels off Earth until the first seal broke and then they were sent to pull Dean out of Hell to stop Lucifer from getting out of the Cage which failed because of Zachariah and Uriel doing their own thing. 

IMO Michael opted to not change history because he was fulfilling God's command to kill Lucifer and apparently thought he had to use a human vessel to do it.  It's just another reason s5 doesn't make much sense with Michael.

Dabb saying Michael is more evil in the AU than on this earth leaves a lot of room for messing with Michael in general because he was so damn underdeveloped in s5 that I guess they can really do whatever they want. But saying he's evil just doesn't really wash for me. YMMV

The interesting thing though is that the prophecy the angels talked about pretty much obliterated humanity as we / they knew it, so to fulfill the prophecy - which was basically Revelation - there wasn't any way to have humanity as it was known. Michael was basically choosing to bring about the end times right then. I agree with @DittyDotDot. Michael was in his own way always "evil."

On 7/15/2017 at 3:55 PM, DittyDotDot said:

Oh, see, I think Michael had the same malevolence towards humanity as Lucifer did, he just didn't act on it like Lucifer did. I guess this comes back to what exactly defines evil? To me, both Michael and Lucifer would be considered evil in the Supernatural universe because they were acting against humanity's interests.

Mostly agreed. Although I don't think Michael had exactly the same malevolence towards humans as Lucifer did, but that was because I don't think he cared as much about them as Lucifer did. What Michael lacked in malevolence though, he more than made up for in indifference to me. The end result was fairly similar. Humans dying and either "yay" or "meh" in response. Either still results in dead people.

I agree with you that in his own way, Michael was even more evil than Lucifer. At least Lucifer felt *something* towards humanity even if it was hatred and jealousy. I guess it's a philosophical question of which is worse: trying to destroy the world or just shrugging and watching it happen even though you could've done something to prevent it. Both sound pretty evil to me

On 7/15/2017 at 1:56 PM, catrox14 said:

Michael was a dick angel but not evil IMO. AFAIK, it wasn't Michael's plan AFAIK to let Lucifer out of the cage. That was the demons. It was Zachariah and Uriel who wanted Heaven on Earth AFAIK. Michael was commanded by God to cast Lucifer into Hell and once Lucifer got out, he needed Dean to be his vessel so he could kill Lucifer. That was his goal. AFAIK, I don't think Michael had any beef with humanity per se he was indifferent I think. But maybe I'm forgetting something. Michael only came down to Earth when it was time for him to take on his vessel which IMO was always Dean but Dean reneged so he took Adam. His intent was not trying to destroy humanity or turn humanity into demons which is what Lucifer was doing. Lucifer HATED humanity and was jealous of them. Michael wasn't. IMO  Michael was selfish and underestimated humans but his mission to kill Lucifer made him indifferent to anything else because it is what God wanted him to do. But does that make him EVIL, Like Lucifer EVIL? I don't think so.

It always really bugged me that in Stuck in the Middle it was implied that the  Lance of Michael was made to make Lucifer suffer. That flies directly in the  face of Michael from s5.

But Michael could have stopped that at any time if he had wanted to. Kill Ruby - easy for Michael to do - and Lucifer likely would have stayed in the cage. Not wipe Mary's and John's minds in "The Song Remains the Same" and maybe Sam wouldn't have been born and Lucifer wouldn't have been let out. My question in that was who's idea was it to let Anna out of jail to try to kill Sam or Mary... and why didn't Michael let her? My answer: he knew Mary was pregnant with Dean and he wanted his vessel born and to "win" more than he wanted to prevent Lucifer from escaping in the first place.

And the most damning of all for me: Michael wanted to keep Sam from putting Lucifer back into the cage. That would have stopped everything, but Michael wanted to kill Lucifer and start whatever was next, so he tried to prevent Sam from falling into the cage just so he could kill Lucifer and be "right," potentially killing half of humanity to do so. Maybe that's just indifference, but it's indifference at a pretty reprehensible level to me.

The whole idea behind the Alternate Universe is that Sam and Dean weren't born... so someone still let Lucifer out - or wants to let Lucifer out - Michael let the carnage happen, without Sam and Dean to prevent him from doing what he wanted, and something went terribly, terribly wrong.

On 7/15/2017 at 4:13 PM, ahrtee said:

That, to me, sounds like Michael assuming it would work out like he planned *without* coercion, and it was Zach who took it on himself to push so hard.  I think Michael stayed out of it except maybe to encourage Zach to "close the deal" but he didn't really care about timing--after all, he had all the time in the universe, and he did say (several times) that he didn't *want* to kill his brother but was only following Dad's orders, so he wouldn't be in any particular rush to get that chore done. 

I think it was Michael's plan to resurrect Adam and use him as bait. If that's the case, I would call that coercion and trying to hurry things along. Also Michael had the opportunity maybe to get Dean back on board which might have taken more time but would have been strategically more prudent. He didn't. He preferred to pout and say "this doesn't concern you any more" and speed ahead with the more malleable Adam.

 

On the subject of successfully predicting things in recent seasons, I predicted that:

Sam would totally screw up while "saving" Dean from the mark of Cain

Dean killing Death would have no bad consequences

Sam's "visions" at the beginning of season 11 were actually Lucifer (I think that before the season started and there were rumors about Sam having visions that I at least predicted that they would be "evil" rather than good)

I'm probably missing one or two... but I must say, all of those predictions pale in comparison to @catrox14 predicting that Nick's body was saved by Crowley and that he somehow kept it around. I can't begin to compete with that. ; )

[MysteryGuest]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

If they wanted to explore Sam being a parent why do it with the Devil's Spawn?  We already know Sam was against killing it from the get go. Why not have him continue to become closer with Claire or maybe even have him find out he had kid with Amelia that he never know about. Like maybe she got pregnant during their last get together in s8 and something happens to Amelia and Don, then Sam gets a call from someone who says this kid in CPS is his. Let him figure that out.

I'm not sure why there's a need for Sam to explore parenthood, unless it's another attempt to make things even between the brothers.  Since Dean got to act as parent to Ben, now Sam needs to parent someone?  It's just stupid.  If anyone is going to mentor Jack, it should be Cas, with assistance from both Sam and Dean.  If he truly has the potential for good, then it's on all of them to keep him as far away from Lucifer as possible.  

Last year at this time I was looking forward to the new season.  I was interested in the BMOL storyline and Mary's return.  Sadly, both turned out to be not quite what I expected.  This year I can't seem to muster up any interest in the various storylines that have been hinted at.  I don't care at all about Lucifer and next to nothing about his spawn.  The AU could possibly be interesting, but I'm afraid it's just going to turn into more Heaven vs Hell bullshit, and I'm pretty much done with that.  I was hoping for something that would involve reinstating the AMOL, and hunting some interesting monsters, but we're not hearing much of anything about that.  

I have no idea who comes up with the general plot lines for the new seasons.  If it's a collaborative effort between the writers and Dabb and Co., or whether Dabb just tells them how he wants the story to go, but I wish they'd ask for more input.

[ahrtee]

4 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I think it was Michael's plan to resurrect Adam and use him as bait. If that's the case, I would call that coercion and trying to hurry things along. Also Michael had the opportunity maybe to get Dean back on board which might have taken more time but would have been strategically more prudent. He didn't. He preferred to pout and say "this doesn't concern you any more" and speed ahead with the more malleable Adam.

As I said before, this is just a question of interpretation.  I never saw anything that showed (to me) Michael giving the orders in PONR.  No one ever said (I don't think?) that Michael wanted to stop the Apocalypse (or keep Lucifer in the cage.)  I'm assuming he also knew where the cage was, and if he wanted, he could have sprung Lucifer at any time.  I think he was just following his dad's orders to the letter:  wait till Lucifer shows up and then fight him.  No interference necessary to make it happen.  He knew that the Winchesters were the chosen ones and was convinced that they'd say yes eventually (which is what he told Dean back in The Song Remains the Same, instead of trying to convince or coerce him into saying yes.)   I imagine even if it took 50 years and we had 80-somethings Sam and Dean doddering along, Luci and Mike would still be able to bring them back to fighting strength, at least while they were wearing them.  (That's one fight scene I might enjoy watching! :) )

The only kind of interference I see from Michael is that maybe he knew that all the pieces were on the board and was just getting tired of waiting, so told Zachariah to speed things up.  After Zach failed continuously for almost a year (and was Michael giving all those other orders, too?) he was about to "fire" him (literally) but decided to give him one last chance.   (He wasn't threatening to replace him with anyone else, IIRC, just turn him into charcoal for being incompetent.)  

It's possible that Michael thought of Adam, remembering that he'd possessed John successfully, so maybe he did give the idea to Zach, but (again) there's no definitive proof one way or another, so all interpretations are valid (and unprovable).  But to me, using Adam as bait was more like Zach.  He was "petty," remember?  And more likely to know the details of the Winchesters' lives and what would work on them;  and, as he also said, beating Dean (instead of just getting a vessel) had become personal.   

My impression was that Michael didn't bother with the small stuff, which (to him) included humans and their motivations.  He just didn't seem like a hands-on kind of boss, more the big-picture guy.  

Plus,  when Zach finally did get Dean to say "yes," he had to actually *call* Michael.  I'd think if Michael was so involved and had set everything up, he'd be watching and would just swoop in as soon as he got that yes, or at least be faster about showing up.  As it is, the delay gave Dean time to change his mind and give his counteroffer (via angel blade).  Then, when Michael did show up, Dean was right outside the door, and he'd already said yes (just as Adam had) so if he really wanted Dean instead, he probably could have taken him instead of Adam.  That's where I see arrogance and lack of interest, not pouting and especially not the mastermind who'd planned everything for his own ends.   

TBH, nothing they've shown or said about Michael has indicated he's anything other than the perfect soldier and a good son--obeying orders absolutely and unquestioningly, with nothing of intelligence or strategic ability or even independent thought.  But again, YMMV.  And I assume they'll change that in the new season to make him a more formidable enemy.  *sigh*

[ZennyKenny]

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I don't see where "cosmic consequences" were ever in play for Cas for killing Billie other than one more angel on angel murder since Reapers are Angels.  Cas didn't make the blood deal, the boys did. The only thing killing Billie did was stop her from reaping one or all of the Winchesters.

I mean, I agree, but...

Then why did Dean look so upset at Cas for killing Billie? I thought the implication was that the "consequences would be transferred to Cas for breaking the oath or whatever. If not, then why the worry? And why did Cas respond to the worry by giving that big "this world needs every last Winchester" speech? I thought the implication THERE was that he knew he was sacrificing himself via the consequence, for the greater good?

God this show can be so confusing sometimes.

[ILoveReading]

5 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

I mean, I agree, but...

Then why did Dean look so upset at Cas for killing Billie? I thought the implication was that the "consequences would be transferred to Cas for breaking the oath or whatever. If not, then why the worry? And why did Cas respond to the worry by giving that big "this world needs every last Winchester" speech? I thought the implication THERE was that he knew he was sacrificing himself via the consequence, for the greater good?

God this show can be so confusing sometimes.

I tend to think no other writer, besides Yockey, who wrote the follow up ep to First Blood, read Dabb's script and didn't know anything about cosmic consequences.   It seemed like another dropped plot point. 

If the audience was meant to see Cas's death as those cosmic consequences, I figure Dabb would have made sure to put it in the script.  Cas's screen time and focus seemed to fade noticeably after ep 15, when MP was promoted to regular.

I think it was something Dabb lost interest in after he switched to his pet Lucifer storyline.

Edited July 18, 2017 by ILoveReading

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

The interesting thing though is that the prophecy the angels talked about pretty much obliterated humanity as we / they knew it, so to fulfill the prophecy - which was basically Revelation - there wasn't any way to have humanity as it was known. Michael was basically choosing to bring about the end times right then. I agree with @DittyDotDot. Michael was in his own way always "evil."

But is that evil?  I think it's more like Death, with his "you are insignificant." No matter how many humans Death kills, he's not evil, any more than a hurricane or volcano is evil.  It's not deliberate or personal.  It's only (some) humans who have come to expect that angels are good and there to protect them.   

 I think it's been pretty well shown that, up until Cas starting mingling with the mud-monkeys, none of the angels were particularly interested in humanity (other than Ishim, I guess...)  The impression I had was that Chuck had set up this petri-dish with various forms of bacteria and told his children to keep watch on them to see what happens.  Then, after eons, when they evolved, he ordered the angels to treat them like equals (or better), which is when Lucifer rebelled; but none of the other angels seemed particularly thrilled at the idea, even if they didn't come out and argue.  Michael was just following his dad's orders to fight his brother.  Chuck should have known what that battle would bring, so in that case the End of Days is on Chuck.  To the archangels, at least, humans were just dad's experiment, and if dad said wipe 'em all out, so be it.  

Now, in the coming season, it sounds like they're planning on making Michael Evil (with a capital "E").  Or maybe they're just going to give him an actual personality.  

Do you think they're going to give him the rebellious son/Lucifer role in AUland?  And if so, does that mean that the AU Lucifer will be good? (And will *our* Lucifer be fighting AU!Luci?)  Double the Pelligrino...that might make Dabb happy...

8 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I tend to think no other writer, besides Yockey, who wrote the follow up ep to First Blood, read Dabb's script and didn't know anything about cosmic consequences.   It seemed like another dropped plot point. 

If the audience was meant to see Cas's death as those cosmic consequences, I figure Dabb would have made sure to put it in the script.  Cas's screen time and focus seemed to fade noticeably after ep 15, when MP was promoted to regular.

I think it was something Dabb lost interest in after he switched to his pet Lucifer storyline.

IA no one was thinking of previous episodes, just going for the shock moments.  But Cas's death was meant to be a shocking fadeout/end of season shot.  There's plenty of time in the new season to make it about cosmic consequences if they want to go that route.  (I can't guarantee Dabb or any writers will remember it or care about it, considering how many other "dropped plot points" they've had over the years.)  

[DittyDotDot]

24 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

I mean, I agree, but...

Then why did Dean look so upset at Cas for killing Billie? I thought the implication was that the "consequences would be transferred to Cas for breaking the oath or whatever. If not, then why the worry? And why did Cas respond to the worry by giving that big "this world needs every last Winchester" speech? I thought the implication THERE was that he knew he was sacrificing himself via the consequence, for the greater good?

God this show can be so confusing sometimes.

Yeah, if Lucifer killing Cass totally independent and unrelated to Cass killing or the boys making a deal with Billie, then I fail to see how that's a cosmic consequence for the action of killing Billie or breaking the deal. I mean, Lucifer killed Cass because he's an asshole and for no other reason. There was no cosmic consequences about it, IMO.

Now, if they had been smart, the cosmic consequence for breaking that deal should've been that Lucifer was able to create the Spawn. That's a cosmic consequence. Killing one little angel is not, IMO.

7 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

But is that evil?  I think it's more like Death, with his "you are insignificant." No matter how many humans Death kills, he's not evil, any more than a hurricane or volcano is evil.  It's not deliberate or personal.  It's only (some) humans who have come to expect that angels are good and there to protect them.

For me, it's evil in the Supernatural universe simply because how they usually define evil is anything working against humanity's interest. The apocalypse Michael was jonesing for--whether he was just letting it happen or not, he did want it to happen and at no time expressed a desire to stop it when he easily could have--was not in humanity's interest, so yeah, I classify him as evil.

Outside of the Supernatural universe, I'd say he's a coward and a asshole, but not necessarily evil.

Edited July 19, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[SueB]

Jessica is our "Ibelieveinthelittletreetopper" Tumblr source (someone was asking who she is).  Here's an article she wrote for the Mary Sue.  She's confirmed she'll be IN the roundtable room for press at SDCC for Supernatural.  There is NOTHING spoilerish or about the show here.  I just wanted you all to know the 'bona fides' of our usual spoiler source:

https://www.themarysue.com/gishwhes-love-letter/

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, ZennyKenny said:

I mean, I agree, but...

Then why did Dean look so upset at Cas for killing Billie? I thought the implication was that the "consequences would be transferred to Cas for breaking the oath or whatever. If not, then why the worry? And why did Cas respond to the worry by giving that big "this world needs every last Winchester" speech? I thought the implication THERE was that he knew he was sacrificing himself via the consequence, for the greater good?

God this show can be so confusing sometimes.

No, it doesn't make any sense.  It was bad writing, bad plotting, bad everything just to get rid of Billie and set up something for Cas that went PFFFT anyway.

Or rather I should say it was presented as being for Cas but it was really a Lucifer thing in the end...and now apparently most likely a Sam SL. 

Edited July 19, 2017 by catrox14

[gonzosgirrl]

20 minutes ago, Diane said:

Brought this over from the social media thread.

The whole week, wow. I hope they have fun, but the selfish part of me wonders what kind of ep they are filming where they can shoot without either of them for a full week.

Would they be finished with 12x01 already? Maybe they filmed all their scenes first and will film around them for 12x02 until they are back, but it still makes me nervous for Dean/Sam content out of the gate. I have less than zero interest in Winchester-lite episodes.

[Diane]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

Brought this over from the social media thread.

The whole week, wow. I hope they have fun, but the selfish part of me wonders what kind of ep they are filming where they can shoot without either of them for a full week.

Would they be finished with 12x01 already? Maybe they filmed all their scenes first and will film around them for 12x02 until they are back, but it still makes me nervous for Dean/Sam content out of the gate. I have less than zero interest in Winchester-lite episodes.

Maybe they did, they have done that before.  I was just as surprised. Maybe they built the time in for once.

[catrox14]

I wonder if there is going to be a heavy AU episode being filmed right now for Lucifer/Mary. OR maybe this will be the spin off episode so they don't need to be on set at all. 

[Diane]

Just now, catrox14 said:

I wonder if there is going to be a heavy AU episode being filmed right now for Lucifer/Mary. OR maybe this will be the spin off episode so they don't need to be on set at all. 

I hope that's not the case, they are filming the 1st ep of the season, they are not filming out of episode order, according to Jason Fischer

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, Diane said:

I hope that's not the case, they are filming the 1st ep of the season, they are not filming out of episode order, according to Jason Fischer

My thoughts:

-- Maybe this will be Cas' true good bye episode and it's a clip show down memory lane. 

-- If ep 2 has something to do with the AU, I can see it being some AU flashbacks with AUBobby/AUMary/AU Cas/AU Michael/Lucifer. Since Dean and Sam supposedly never existed in the AU they wouldn't be in the episode at all, except maybe to explain that they are taking a break because Dean is having trouble with Cas' death and Mary disappearing and they are taking a vacation...which....

And to that end:

SWERVE:  Sam decides to take Dean to the beach and they drive to San Diego. They end up hearing about a case involving monsters at Comic Con. The episode takes place at Comic Con for reasons.

SWERVE 2: Dean and Sam are sent into the French Mistake AU again and now they have to be J2 at Comic Con. More meta with fans etc etc.

Edited July 19, 2017 by catrox14