Spoilers With Speculation

[ILoveReading]

I saw this

[ahrtee]

11 hours ago, Jakes said:

They say Jack is not evil--more of a blank slate, will be a battle over him

--Dabb says one season 13 theme is Sam and Dean as parents to the Dangerous Jack

--The boys thinking of powering Jack down but hesitate because he's the key to bring back Mary from AU

I'm  not too thrilled with this whole SL, because I honestly can’t see any good way to get the boys to actually “co-parent” Jack, mostly because I can’t imagine any circumstances where Dean wouldn’t just want to kill  him immediately.   Therefore, all I can see is Sam (once again) giving Dean the talk about Not Every Monster is Evil, and Give Him A Chance, and reminding him that Jack is probably the best way to get Mary back, and we've seen that way too many times.  (My opinion on that will probably have to go into Bitch/Jerk, just to be safe.) 

Honestly, other than that, the only way I can see Dean being willing to even try to raise Jack is if he resurrects Cas and Dean is grateful enough to give him a chance, kind of like he distrusted/disliked Ruby but did work with her (grudgingly, and at Sam’s request) for a long time.

In either event, I can’t see Dean being happy about raising the devil's spawn (literally) and so I'm afraid it'll be more of Sam taking charge and Dean helping grudgingly, and probably retconning Dean’s whole history of being good with kids and Sam, not so much.   

Edited July 15, 2017 by ahrtee

[Wayward Son]

https://mobile.twitter.com/SNkevinandjill/status/886072428316590080

 

From that pic it looks like they're doing a hunters funeral! RIP Cas :( 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Big interview with Mark Pellegrino talking about how he's going to on show lot more

--Dabb won't say if Cas is back or not...same with Crowley and Rowena.  Says won't say and hints if they come back it won't be right away

--They say Jack is not evil--more of a blank slate, will be a battle over him

--Dabb says one season 13 theme is Sam and Dean as parents to the Dangerous Jack

--Pellegrino says Lucifer thinks Jack has the potential of infinite power like Chuck and Amara and is highly motivated to get him on his side

--The boys thinking of powering Jack down but hesitate because he's the key to bring back Mary from AU

--Dabb says will explore AU a lot and old characters might be seen again

--Dabb specifies AU Michael who he says could more evil than this world Michael

 

Meh on lots of Lucifer. I was over that guy years ago. The only tiny moment of investment I could muster last year was one scene where Rick Springfield played him. Beyond that, groan.

And the "brothers" will be parents to him, Dabb? Yeah, sure. I remember that bullshit when it read "the brothers will act as generals". Sam will be the "parent", at least say so outright.

They are screwing over Michael some more? Seriously no interest in it. And since it has nothing to do with Dean, less than no interest.

And way to build up Spawn by making him supposedly god-like. Will it end with Sam falling crucifixation style in a plot hole to defeat Spawnifer once he goes super-bad for a supposed epic ending? 

Nothing interesting whatsoever.

Edited July 15, 2017 by Aeryn13

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

t.

 

And way to build up Spawn by making him supposedly god-like. Will it end with Sam falling crucifixation style in a plot hole to defeat Spawnifer once he goes super-bad for a supposed epic ending? 

 

 

I'm guessing Sam will talk Michael into helping them, and then agree to be possessed and then he and Jack will team out to take out Lucifer.

Dean will park the car. 

[shang yiet]

Quote

Therefore, all I can see is Sam (once again) giving Dean the talk about Not Every Monster is Evil, and Give Him A Chance, and reminding him that Jack is probably the best way to get Mary back

Oh don't worry, I'm sure the devil spawn will repay Sam by turning out to be totally evil because Sam is never allowed to be right.

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

 

 

From that pic it looks like they're doing a hunters funeral! RIP Cas :( 

Yeah, I'm thinking whoever was stabbed by the Devil will not be resurrected by the Spawn after all. But, I also think it might be a misdirect and Cass is actually stuck in the Alternate. So, they'll morn Cass in this universe until they find a way back to the other side and learn that it wasn't actually Cass. 

Or, maybe it's a hunter's funeral for Kelly?

As you can see, I haven't fully left De Nile yet. ;)

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

Or, maybe it's a hunter's funeral for Kelly?

This is one of the things i wonder.  It might be how Sam gets Jack to trust them if he helps Jack put his mother to rest.

[MysteryGuest]

Maybe they're prepared to give Cas a hunter's funeral, but he comes back to life somehow before they go through with it.  I just don't see how AU Cas (if there is such a thing) could so quickly assume our Cas' likeness and jump back through the portal.  Of course, this is SPN, and the writers will do whatever they want, but that would be a bit farfetched for me.  

[Pondlass1]

I think consistency will go out the window when it comes to the AU.    The apocalyptic desert landscape with  Bobby  might not be there when they return through the portal.  It could be a BC forest with Cas as a ripped and feathered lumberjack (shame to waste the fruits of his workouts).

Although it HAS to be AU Cas that's stabbed.  Misha has a huge following judging by all the tweets complaining about him not being included on the TV Guide cover, so they're not going to bite the hand of rabid fans.  

Sam and Dean keep Jack on the straight and narrow?  Of all the plots.... that's the one they picked?  If the actor portraying Jack is talented, it could be entertaining. But I don't want more "What's that?"  "It's a computer" .  Duh!!!

Edited July 15, 2017 by Pondlass1

[Pondlass1]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Dean will park the car. 

Watching Dean park Baby could be the best fun of all.

[PAForrest]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Nothing interesting whatsoever.

Those spoilers are so unbelievably bad that if this was another show I'd swear they were trolling us.

Pellegrino must be Dabb's bestie or something. It would explain so much.

Maybe I should be grateful Dabb has no use for Dean so none of this involves him.

[Pondlass1]

13 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

Pellegrino must be Dabb's bestie or something.

Or a second cousin twice removed??  Nothing against MP - he's a good actor.  But there's nothing left to tell in terms of Lucifer.  His story has been told (over and over).

[Wynne88]

I've seen so many shows and read so many books where previously interesting characters were basically flat lined by becoming parents.  That's not what attracted us to them in the first place, and certainly not what I want to see. I don't know that I've ever said that I had doubts about a season before it even started to air, but these spoilers are not encouraging.

[MysteryGuest]

I agree.  The promise of even more Lucifer than last season pretty much confirms I'm not going to enjoy a great deal of season 13.  Add in the boring spawn, and that's a fairly large storyline that I won't be interested in.  

[catrox14]

5 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

https://mobile.twitter.com/SNkevinandjill/status/886072428316590080

 

From that pic it looks like they're doing a hunters funeral! RIP Cas :( 

Shit, shit, shit.  That literally made me tear up.  Seriously. I was like, NO NO NO. I guess I'm still in some kind of denial.

Bright side..or swerve hope.  It's for Kelly. They will give her a hunter's funeral to honor her or something. 

I'm choosing to go back to denial thank you very much

2 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

I think consistency will go out the window when it comes to the AU.    The apocalyptic desert landscape with  Bobby  might not be there when they return through the portal.  It could be a BC forest with Cas as a ripped and feathered lumberjack (shame to waste the fruits of his workouts).

This literally made me lol. Maybe he'll  be wearing the Winchester uniform of plaid (and oh my the Destiel fics this would spawn LOL)

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

Watching Dean park Baby could be the best fun of all.

LOLOL I have never seen that before. I want to know if that was Jensen actually driving or not.

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

--Dabb specifies AU Michael who he says could more evil than this world Michael

If there is an AU Michael then there should be an AU-Lucifer, and an AU-Castiel. So I won't be a bit surprised to see Mark P play two versions of Lucifer in the AU.

Michael is the Warrior that protects Heaven from Hell so him leading the angel army makes sense in the AU and I do find that interesting. However, what I find less than appealing is the notion that Michael is EVIL. It's a pretty big retcon IMO.

Michael was a dick angel but not evil IMO. AFAIK, it wasn't Michael's plan AFAIK to let Lucifer out of the cage. That was the demons. It was Zachariah and Uriel who wanted Heaven on Earth AFAIK. Michael was commanded by God to cast Lucifer into Hell and once Lucifer got out, he needed Dean to be his vessel so he could kill Lucifer. That was his goal. AFAIK, I don't think Michael had any beef with humanity per se he was indifferent I think. But maybe I'm forgetting something. Michael only came down to Earth when it was time for him to take on his vessel which IMO was always Dean but Dean reneged so he took Adam. His intent was not trying to destroy humanity or turn humanity into demons which is what Lucifer was doing. Lucifer HATED humanity and was jealous of them. Michael wasn't. IMO  Michael was selfish and underestimated humans but his mission to kill Lucifer made him indifferent to anything else because it is what God wanted him to do. But does that make him EVIL, Like Lucifer EVIL? I don't think so.

It always really bugged me that in Stuck in the Middle it was implied that the  Lance of Michael was made to make Lucifer suffer. That flies directly in the  face of Michael from s5. 

I suppose if  angels in the AU have baby ear necklaces then I guess that is the sign that AU-Michael is evil. Also, those baby ear necklaces might be demon baby ears for all we know.  Not human baby ears. Unless the angels have a plan to kill babies before they become demons.

Maybe AU-Dean!Michael can have a chat with Dean and Dean can convince him to stop destroying humanity as he is progressing his war against demons.

My stupid hope that Dean and Michael will actually have a convergent SL will probably be my downfall

[catrox14]

I just don't see the show thinking it's at all a good idea to have the boys co-parent an actual sort of manephilimchild (yes I made up a word) in  Spawnifer. Like how is that something they think viewers on the whole will just be so eager to see for more than like two or three episodes max.

Thus far the only people that know of his existence AFAIK are Dean, Cas, Sam, Mary, Lucifer, Kelly, Crowley, Rowena(?), Ramiel, Dagon, Dagon's minion and the doctor. And maybe Asmodeus. Of those,  all but Dean, Sam and Asmodeus are dead or in  the AU. I'm wondering if they will tell Jody about him. I think they will not.  And I was thinking about Spawnifer's age. He'll be around 19 I guess. Good looking.

Do you think it is at all possible for the show to send him off to Wayward Whatever?  Like he runs off and meets up with Claire out there somewhere and she takes a liking to him not knowing who he is.  Then it becomes all the young pretty people on Wayward Whatever.

Because if Cas is really most sincerely dead then it's just the boys alone in the bunker and they still have to work cases so how can that happen if they are busy trying to parent a manephilimchild and getting Mary out of the AU? 

I dunno. Just musing

[DittyDotDot]

20 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Michael was a dick angel but not evil IMO. AFAIK, it wasn't Michael's plan AFAIK to let Lucifer out of the cage. That was the demons. It was Zachariah and Uriel who wanted Heaven on Earth AFAIK. Michael was commanded by God to cast Lucifer into Hell and once Lucifer got out, he needed Dean to be his vessel so he could kill Lucifer. That was his goal. AFAIK, I don't think Michael had any beef with humanity per se he was indifferent I think. But maybe I'm forgetting something. Michael only came down to Earth when it was time for him to take on his vessel which IMO was always Dean but Dean reneged so he took Adam. His intent was not trying to destroy humanity or turn humanity into demons which is what Lucifer was doing. Lucifer HATED humanity and was jealous of them. Michael wasn't. IMO  Michael was selfish and underestimated humans but his mission to kill Lucifer made him indifferent to anything else because it is what God wanted him to do. But does that make him EVIL, Like Lucifer EVIL? I don't think so.

Except the angels wanted Lucifer out of the cage too so they could have the big showdown they believed was God's plan. Both sides were manipulating events in order to make sure Sam and Dean played their parts. Michael commanded the angels, Zachariah was just following Michael's orders. Lucifer may have been turning humans into demons, but Micheal had no use for humanity either and was not at all concerned with them being wiped out. 

IMO, neither Heaven or Hell were concerned about humanity, they were only concerned with winning and being proven right. Personally, I always thought the whole point of S4 and S5 was to say that Heaven was really no different than Hell--and, IMO, Micheal was really no different than Lucifer--it's just that Heaven had better PR due to the angels smiling at the camera and kissing the babies when needed. Hell, just didn't put up the pretense Heaven did.

3 hours ago, Wynne88 said:

I've seen so many shows and read so many books where previously interesting characters were basically flat lined by becoming parents.  That's not what attracted us to them in the first place, and certainly not what I want to see. I don't know that I've ever said that I had doubts about a season before it even started to air, but these spoilers are not encouraging.

I don't know, it could be like a Data sort of thing and not a true parenting? I'm not encouraged by this, but not yet discouraged either. I'm waiting to see what they do with it before I judge it.

[ILoveReading]

What are they going to do with Jack when they go out on hunts?  They can't leave him in the bunker all alone.

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

What are they going to do with Jack when they go out on hunts?  They can't leave him in the bunker all alone.

Oh, he'll probably run away from time to time leaving Sam and Dean to work a case or two while looking for him.

[ahrtee]

42 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Except the angels wanted Lucifer out of the cage too so they could have the big showdown they believed was God's plan. Both sides were manipulating events in order to make sure Sam and Dean played their parts. Michael commanded the angels, Zachariah was just following Michael's orders. Lucifer may have been turning humans into demons, but Micheal had no use for humanity either and was not at all concerned with them being wiped out. 

IMO, neither Heaven or Hell were concerned about humanity, they were only concerned with winning and being proven right. Personally, I always thought the whole point of S4 and S5 was to say that Heaven was really no different than Hell--and, IMO, Micheal was really no different than Lucifer--it's just that Heaven had better PR due to the angels smiling at the camera and kissing the babies when needed. Hell, just didn't put up the pretense Heaven did.

I never got the impression that Michael was running things (especially giving Zachariah orders).  What I saw was that it was the "lower angels" (ie, Uriel and Zach) who were working behind the scenes with a group of similar-minded angels who were tired of waiting on earth and watching humans they disliked and so were pushing to make it happen sooner.  Gabriel mentioned that it was *always* supposed to be Sam and Dean, from the beginning of time, and I thought Michael was just sitting back and waiting for everything to fall into place (remember, he didn't try to coerce or even convince Dean in The Song Remains the Same, just sent him back so he could *choose* to "fulfill his destiny.")  I think he was confident (or arrogant) enough to assume it would happen and he didn't need to manipulate anything.  Not evil, just above all that human nonsense.  The other angels weren't that confident, especially when Sam and Dean balked, so they tried to force them into accepting their destiny.  

But IA that neither heaven nor hell was concerned about humanity.  Chuck was the only one who was invested in humans (at least at first) before he got disillusioned and walked away.  I think the archangels more or less thought of humans as their father's pet project, perceived as a threat (Lucifer), totally unimportant (Michael) or interesting in a "slumming it" kind of way (Gabriel).  So maybe the AU Michael will be more hands-on and actively disliking humans.  (And maybe AU Lucifer might actually like them!)  Anyway, a thought.

[catrox14]

Michael's sin was indifference more than malevolence towards humanity like Lucifer turning humans into demons to punish God's favorite children or being jealous. AFAIR, Zachariah and Uriel were the angels that wanted the battle because they knew that Lucifer and Michael's battle would be so massive  it would scorch the planet and they could take over Earth. 

I don't think it was on Michael's orders and it really doesn't make sense for Michael to seek to destroy humanity when God's orders were for angels to love humanity and Michael always followed God's orders. He cast Lucifer into Hell at God's command. He kept angels off Earth until the first seal broke and then they were sent to pull Dean out of Hell to stop Lucifer from getting out of the Cage which failed because of Zachariah and Uriel doing their own thing. 

IMO Michael opted to not change history because he was fulfilling God's command to kill Lucifer and apparently thought he had to use a human vessel to do it.  It's just another reason s5 doesn't make much sense with Michael.

Dabb saying Michael is more evil in the AU than on this earth leaves a lot of room for messing with Michael in general because he was so damn underdeveloped in s5 that I guess they can really do whatever they want. But saying he's evil just doesn't really wash for me. YMMV

Edited July 15, 2017 by catrox14

[rue721]

On 7/14/2017 at 3:11 PM, Jakes said:

Well I read the TV Guide Comic Con article on SPN at the book store--must of come out today...i'll give the highlights from memory:

 

--Big interview with Mark Pellegrino talking about how he's going to on show lot more

--Dabb won't say if Cas is back or not...same with Crowley and Rowena.  Says won't say and hints if they come back it won't be right away

--They say Jack is not evil--more of a blank slate, will be a battle over him

--Dabb says one season 13 theme is Sam and Dean as parents to the Dangerous Jack

--Pellegrino says Lucifer thinks Jack has the potential of infinite power like Chuck and Amara and is highly motivated to get him on his side

--The boys thinking of powering Jack down but hesitate because he's the key to bring back Mary from AU

--Dabb says will explore AU a lot and old characters might be seen again

--Dabb specifies AU Michael who he says could more evil than this world Michael

Moooooooooore Lucifer?

Why?! What did we do wrong, Dabb? Please stop!

Also, personally, I have no interest in seeing Sam and Dean parent Jack. Parent an actual child? Possibly, I guess. I was one of the few who liked Ben and Dean's relationship, and I liked the disagreement between Sam and Dean about how Adam was raised, and I even liked when the brothers tried to take care of the shifter baby for like ten minutes back in S6. But parent a totally ignorant, supernatural adult? Whoever wanted to see that got to see it for YEARS with Cas. Move on, writers. Please.

The only thing I think is interesting about Jack is his super-aging. But god knows that was probably just a logistical necessity so the show wasn't stuck with a child actor or whatever, and it's just going to be handwaved. Although I'd be down for a Jack (as in, the Robin Williams movie) kind of story where he's a small child stuck in the body of an ever-aging adult, just because that would be such an absurd path for the show to go down.

I hope that AU Lucifer kills Our Lucifer within like seconds of the premier. And then maybe AU Lucifer can kill himself somehow, too. KTHXBIEEEEEE!

On 7/14/2017 at 3:38 PM, Jakes said:

You're welcome--don't even know if Michael crosses over or not(he may!)...Pellegrino says over in the AU universe there are very few humans and the only thing in the way of Lucifer over there is the ANGELS.

Oh my god, the ONE WORSE THING they could do. I could not give less of a shit about the angels if I tried.

It's like they tried to think of everything I dislike or find boring about this show and then decided to focus on JUST THAT STUFF. I mean, if that was their goal, then they got a bull's eye, I'll give them that.

[DittyDotDot]

8 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I never got the impression that Michael was running things (especially giving Zachariah orders).  What I saw was that it was the "lower angels" (ie, Uriel and Zach) who were working behind the scenes with a group of similar-minded angels who were tired of waiting on earth and watching humans they disliked and so were pushing to make it happen sooner.

My impression was Micheal was giving the orders but didn't want to get his hands dirty so sent his cronies--Zachariah--to do the dirty work. I thought that was Michael who came down and gave Zachariah a second chance at the start of Point of No Return, which gave me the impression he was very hands on in the whole deal. Uriel was no more in the know than Cass, he was working his own angle, but he was also unaware that Heaven wanted the same thing he did--Lucifer out of the cage--but for different reasons. Heaven (or IMO Michael) wanted Lucifer out so they could have the big showdown and get it all over with,; Uriel wanted him out because he believed as Lucifer did and thought it was unfair that God had locked him up for that belief. 

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Michael's sin was indifference more than malevolence towards humanity like Lucifer turning humans into demons to punish God's favorite children or being jealous.

Oh, see, I think Michael had the same malevolence towards humanity as Lucifer did, he just didn't act on it like Lucifer did. I guess this comes back to what exactly defines evil? To me, both Michael and Lucifer would be considered evil in the Supernatural universe because they were acting against humanity's interests.

[ahrtee]

8 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

My impression was Micheal was giving the orders but didn't want to get his hands dirty so sent his cronies--Zachariah--to do the dirty work. I thought that was Michael who came down and gave Zachariah a second chance at the start of Point of No Return, which gave me the impression he was very hands on in the whole deal. Uriel was no more in the know than Cass, he was working his own angle, but he was also unaware that Heaven wanted the same thing he did--Lucifer out of the cage--but for different reasons. Heaven (or IMO Michael) wanted Lucifer out so they could have the big showdown and get it all over with,; Uriel wanted him out because he believed as Lucifer did and thought it was unfair that God had locked him up for that belief. 

Oh, see, I think Michael had the same malevolence towards humanity as Lucifer did, he just didn't act on it like Lucifer did. I guess this comes back to what exactly defines evil? To me, both Michael and Lucifer would be considered evil in the Supernatural universe because they were acting against humanity's interests.

We never heard directly who was giving Zachariah his orders, but in PONR, he did say: 

ZACHARIAH: I mean, I thought I was downsized for sure. And for us, a firing...pretty damn literal. But I should have trusted the boss man. It's all playing out like he said...You, me, your hemorrhaging brothers. 

That, to me, sounds like Michael assuming it would work out like he planned *without* coercion, and it was Zach who took it on himself to push so hard.  I think Michael stayed out of it except maybe to encourage Zach to "close the deal" but he didn't really care about timing--after all, he had all the time in the universe, and he did say (several times) that he didn't *want* to kill his brother but was only following Dad's orders, so he wouldn't be in any particular rush to get that chore done.  

I tend to agree with @catrox14 about Michael's motivations, though she sees indifference and I see arrogance, but it all works out the same--he's not deliberately malevolent, just thinks of humans as beneath him (as Death said to Dean in Two Minutes to Midnight: 

DEATH: You have an inflated sense of your importance. To a thing like me, a thing like you, well...Think how you'd feel if a bacterium sat at your table and started to get snarky. This is one little planet in one tiny solar system in a galaxy that's barely out of its diapers. I'm old, Dean. Very old. So I invite you to contemplate how insignificant I find you.  

Granted, Death is Chuck-level of power, but I think the archangels have the same sense of self-importance (and the unimportance of humanity except as blocking their way to eternal bliss.)  

But this is all personal interpretation, so we can agree to disagree. 

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

Oh, see, I think Michael had the same malevolence towards humanity as Lucifer did, he just didn't act on it like Lucifer did. I guess this comes back to what exactly defines evil? To me, both Michael and Lucifer would be considered evil in the Supernatural universe because they were acting against humanity's interests.

Ah I get you. Yeah I guess I see those as being totally different.

To me, malevolence is seeking to harm something or someone out of spite with malicious intent. IMO that is why Lucifer was malevolent when he actively with malice aforethought, sought to destroy humanity by creating demons which IMO is evil.

IMO, Michael wasn't actively seeking to harm humanity.  I think he understood obedience and being a "good son" which is what drove him more than anything else. Michael was arrogant and thought angels were superior to humans but probably didn't "love" them as much as he tolerated their existence and he didn't particularly worry that his war with Lucifer was going to kill some humans. 

It seems to me that Dabb is probably only paying lip service to Michael in any universe as it is. So whatever he comes up with now, is probably going to last one episode at best. 

[DittyDotDot]

58 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

ZACHARIAH: I mean, I thought I was downsized for sure. And for us, a firing...pretty damn literal. But I should have trusted the boss man. It's all playing out like he said...You, me, your hemorrhaging brothers. 

That, to me, sounds like Michael assuming it would work out like he planned *without* coercion, and it was Zach who took it on himself to push so hard.

Oh, I don't know, earlier in the episode Zachariah was whining about being downsized because he didn't get the "yes" he was tasked with getting. I think Zachariah was just a corporate mook following the orders of his superiors. And, when he didn't get the desired result they were going to cut him loose. 

I agree that Michael was arrogant and believed it would work out in his favor, but I think his arrogance is exactly what led him to start meddling in the first place. IMO, Micheal figured it didn't matter how they got there since he was the righteous one and would win no matter what. I think he just gave the outward appearance of sitting back and letting things happen so the lower angels would believe it was God's will and follow along. 

Even though not-so-marvy-Marv was mostly a lying liar who lies, I tend to agree with his assessment of things in The Greatest Escapist: "I worked in the secretarial pool before God chose me to take down the Word. Anyway, he... seemed very worried about his work, what would happen to it when he left, so he had me write down instructions. Then, he was gone. After that, the archangels took over. And they cried, and they wailed. They wanted their father back. I mean, we all did. But then... then they started to scheme. The archangels decided if they couldn't have Dad, they'd take over the universe themselves."

Anyway, I took the whole alternate universe to be what would've happened if Michael and Lucifer weren't removed from the board by Sam and Dean back in S5. So, I'm not sure why Michael needs to be "eviler," since I thought he was pretty bad already. In fact, in some ways I think he was worse than Lucifer. At least Lucifer owned his beliefs while Michael kinda cowered behind "I'm only doing what God wanted." 

Edited July 15, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

Some kind soul put these up on Tumblr. PICs of the TV Guide SPN article

Unless this person left out some of the stuff on SPN, and I doubt they did, the only character that received his own extended article is fucking Lucifer. Yeah, I'm pretty sure this means they are going all in with Lucifer. I think he'll have at least 13 episodes. I'll eat my hat if he doesn't.

 

 

UGH that picture of Lucifer stabbing Cas, is more disturbing than the actual scene that was aired. Man, this is awful.

Source: 

http://mittensmorgul.tumblr.com/post/163028314930

Edited July 15, 2017 by catrox14

[catrox14]

So I was thinking. What if Cas comes back as Michael? He did get pierced by the Lance of Michael but was also healed when his grace was restored when the Lance was broken by Crowley. I've wondered if Cas was ever actually filled with any of Michael's grace.

Cas being healed by Michael's grace would be interesting since Michael is also considered the Healing Angel by some religions.

Maybe Misha's apparent beefing up is for him to play Michael? 

I'm kind of torn on that but maybe it would be okay as long as Dean is still central to the arc given his relationship with Cas. Hmm....

Edited July 15, 2017 by catrox14

[ahrtee]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Cas being healed by Michael's grace would be interesting since Michael is also considered the Healing Angel by some religions.

I thought Raphael was the "healing angel."  (Not that that would stop TPTB if they decide to change things.)  

Hmmm...was Raph ever actually killed?  I know his vessel was destroyed (a few times) but I don't think we ever saw a wing burn, so maybe he's still around? 

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, ahrtee said:

Hmmm...was Raph ever actually killed?  I know his vessel was destroyed (a few times) but I don't think we ever saw a wing burn, so maybe he's still around? 

Didn't Castiel eviscerate him when he was playing God?

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I thought Raphael was the "healing angel."  (Not that that would stop TPTB if they decide to change things.)  

Hmmm...was Raph ever actually killed?  I know his vessel was destroyed (a few times) but I don't think we ever saw a wing burn, so maybe he's still around? 

Maybe they both are. I know that St Michael is often prayed to for healing in some religions.

But just for my own edification I just decided to do a cursory glance at Wikipedia and Michael seems to have a lot of functions in lore depending on the particular religion or era. He's a Warrior Angel, a healing angel and also in some faiths did some balancing of scales for those going to the afterlife. Like he determined who was going to Heaven or Hell. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_(archangel)

Huh that's kind interesting especially when I think about Dean as a parallel to Michael. Dean is a Warrior, he has been shown to take time helping others who are injured, and he was Death for a day.

[ahrtee]

16 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Didn't Castiel eviscerate him when he was playing God?

 

Chuck could still "rebuild" them, though in We Happy Few he said he didn't have the time:

CHUCK: Well, Michael’s in no condition to fight, and it’s outside of my power to bring Gabriel and Raphael back.
SAM: But you restored Castiel.
CHUCK: Archangels are different. They’re the stuff of primordial creation. Rebuilding them, that’s – It’s time we don’t have. 

But once the crisis was over, you'd think he would want to bring back his children.  (I think I'm just hoping that maybe Gabriel will turn up again in s.13!)  

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Chuck could still "rebuild" them, though in We Happy Few he said he didn't have the time:

CHUCK: Well, Michael’s in no condition to fight, and it’s outside of my power to bring Gabriel and Raphael back.
SAM: But you restored Castiel.
CHUCK: Archangels are different. They’re the stuff of primordial creation. Rebuilding them, that’s – It’s time we don’t have. 

But once the crisis was over, you'd think he would want to bring back his children.  (I think I'm just hoping that maybe Gabriel will turn up again in s.13!)  

Oh man I forgot he included Michael! That was such stupid writing. Like HE'S GOD. He had no problem healing Lucifer right up after Amara nearly destroyed him, but NOPE , can't take the time to go you know zap Michael out of Hell and fix him and put him into the fight. NOPE. 

Also, he fixed LUCIFER, the archangel possessing Castiel. Michael didn't have to be rebuilt at a molecular level, FFS. He just needed to be healed.

" What a load of crap it all is " - Demon!Dean

Edited July 15, 2017 by catrox14

[catrox14]

Holy crap. MISHA !!!! LOLOLOL

[catrox14]

Just for clarity. Fangasm also verifies Misha's remarks about Dean flirting with Cas LOLOLOL

[Wayward Son]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Just for clarity. Fangasm also verifies Misha's remarks about Dean flirting with Cas LOLOLOL

Oh geese! Misha is in full blown trolling mode this weekend then hahahaha

[catrox14]

[Wayward Son]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

My guess is that he will be playing Castiel's corpse in that scene! And he's joking about the fact his "nethers" would be easy to kick while he's at their feet.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

My guess is that he will be playing Castiel's corpse in that scene! And he's joking about the fact his "nethers" would be easy to kick while he's at their feet.

Probably. :(

[catrox14]

[catrox14]

That explains his physique. So when is he going to run an Ironman??

[DeeDee79]

5 hours ago, ahrtee said:

(I think I'm just hoping that maybe Gabriel will turn up again in s.13!)  

Even though I never fully warmed up to Gabriel I'd like to see an angel that's not fixated on killing Castiel as they all seem to be.  I would prefer Balthazar since I absolutely loved him but I'd take Gabriel if we could get him :)

Edited July 16, 2017 by DeeDee79

[Wayward Son]

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

That explains his physique. So when is he going to run an Ironman??

I'm sad he isn't beefing up for something show related :( 

[Wayward Son]

Ive been thinking on it and I really don't see a place for Castiel in Supernatural Season 13. His two primary storylines last season were a) find and have revenge on Lucifer and b) act as a guardian and protector to Jack. 

 

The first is now now pretty redundant with the news that Mark P is sticking around and in a greater capacity. There is only so long this can remain his primary motive before Cas just looks like an utter moron. And now he has spoiled that the brothers are getting to steal the second storyline from the angel! You know because it's not like they have everything else on this stupid god damned show. Heaven forbid Castiel be allowed a storyline that is his and stays his. 

 

#angryangryangryCasboy

[Bessie]

I don't believe the show people think in those terms. No one is "stealing" any storyline. They get passed around and paralleled and repeated, sure, but not stolen.

By that logic, castiel stole the lucifer storyline from sam. I don't think storylines are owned by any one character. 

[catrox14]

22 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Ive been thinking on it and I really don't see a place for Castiel in Supernatural Season 13. His two primary storylines last season were a) find and have revenge on Lucifer and b) act as a guardian and protector to Jack. 

 

The first is now now pretty redundant with the news that Mark P is sticking around and in a greater capacity. There is only so long this can remain his primary motive before Cas just looks like an utter moron. And now he has spoiled that the brothers are getting to steal the second storyline from the angel! You know because it's not like they have everything else on this stupid god damned show. Heaven forbid Castiel be allowed a storyline that is his and stays his. 

 

#angryangryangryCasboy

Sorry, man. I feel you.

I don't really understand why they did this with Spawnifer. Sam and Dean do not need to be dealing with a child, like at all. And since we've already seen Dean be a surrogate father, it's redundant ground for Dean so...it seems to me, it's for Sam. 

But honestly Cas being his parent seems the only logical place for that story to have gone.   If Cas is somehow miraculously resurrected, then it's 3 men and a literal manchild which okay fine...but to not have Cas involved at all is stupid. Dabb, this isn't give them what they want in a way they don't expect. This is giving us nothing we asked for nor wanted, in a completely predictable, stupid way. IMO

The only way this MIGHT work for Cas' advantage and character development is to have Spawnifer be secretly evil, and Cas is in the AU and he gets to save Mary, find a way out of the AU with Mary, then saves the boys from secretly evil!Spawnifer, and kills Lucifer. 

But I don't know if Dabb will be that smart on this point.

[DittyDotDot]

45 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Ive been thinking on it and I really don't see a place for Castiel in Supernatural Season 13. His two primary storylines last season were a) find and have revenge on Lucifer and b) act as a guardian and protector to Jack. 

 

The first is now now pretty redundant with the news that Mark P is sticking around and in a greater capacity. There is only so long this can remain his primary motive before Cas just looks like an utter moron. And now he has spoiled that the brothers are getting to steal the second storyline from the angel! You know because it's not like they have everything else on this stupid god damned show. Heaven forbid Castiel be allowed a storyline that is his and stays his. 

TBH, I don't expect Sam and Dean to truly parent Jack. I suspect they'll try because they need him to get Mary back from the Alternate, but I'd guess something will happen--probably surrounding lies and obfuscation coming to light--and he'll end up running off pretty early in the season. The boys will probably spend the first half of the season looking for him while hunting randoms on the side. They'll probably find him in the mid-season finale after he opens up the rift to let Lucifer back in our world. I mean, at some point, he'll have to spend time with his pappa, right? That way he can decide if he wants to be good or bad... .

But, glass half full-ish, since they're being so hush-hush about Cass right now, we don't really know if there is a place for him or not. Maybe he'll have a better storyline than trying to parent the Spawn only to have him look the fool--AGAIN--when he inevitably runs off to find himself.  

Edited July 16, 2017 by DittyDotDot