Spoilers With Speculation

[catrox14]

I don't understand why Mary would even make some kind of comparison to the 4 year old Dean that was left without his mother because of HER choices.  And if she even commented on him being SCARY, well I'll just really be done with her.

She grew up a hunter. She herself is a hunter now and she was willing to kill Lady TheWorst and her HenchBitch, she was happy to have Cas torture the Vet to get Sam's location. She is willing to use ray guns that torture monsters to death and she kind of liked it. If Mary in any way implies that Dean is scary, well fuck her hypocrisy. That's only going to serve to make Dean feel worse about his life.

[SueB]

My point was that in the "nature versus nurture" theme, Mary KNEW Dean's nature and now she sees that a lack of "normal life nurture" has changed the "I WUV HUGS" boy to "World's Deadliest Hunters Top 10" list.  I FULLY expect, based on the spoiler, for Dean to give her pointed feedback with both barrels.  

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, SueB said:

My point was that in the "nature versus nurture" theme, Mary KNEW Dean's nature and now she sees that a lack of "normal life nurture" has changed the "I WUV HUGS" boy to "World's Deadliest Hunters Top 10" list.  I FULLY expect, based on the spoiler, for Dean to give her pointed feedback with both barrels.  

I understand.

I'm saying that I don't want Mary to say a WORD about his current state of his existence compared to when she knew him as a 4 year old.  Especially since she hasn't bothered to spend time around him beyond seeing him hunt and eat pie like an overly excited 4 year old. She hasn't been around to see his nurturing, worried side. His goofy silly dorky side.

I only want Mary to say she's sorry, that she knows he's a wonderful man who has done the best he could with his life given how her deal fucked up his life and John's and Sam's. I don't want to even hear her say anything about what might have been.  Because how will that be good for Dean?

[SueB]

To clarify: I said I wouldn't be surprised if Mary says something. Not that I'm rooting for it.  OTOH, I must admit, if her saying something like that is what gets Dean to unload -- I'm for that. I don't think she's going to apologize without a trigger.  

[catrox14]

Just now, SueB said:

To clarify: I said I wouldn't be surprised if Mary says something. Not that I'm rooting for it.  OTOH, I must admit, if her saying something like that is what gets Dean to unload -- I'm for that. I don't think she's going to apologize without a trigger.  

I didn't think you were rooting for it.  I mean other than all the emotional drama with it. LOL and the potential for all the Ackting!

My worry is that if she says something that triggers whatever he says, she may not apologize even then. I'm leery that whatever Dean dishes out to her will end up back in his face. I'm also mildly concerned it will end up about Sam instead of Dean.

[auntvi]

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm also mildly concerned it will end up about Sam instead of Dean.

If it's about Mary's deal with Azazel, it is about Sam. But that doesn't mean that Dean wasn't affected by her death or that they can't talk about it. I hope both sons are able to really talk to Mary, but I'm afraid that would be too much for one episode to do it right. So one will probably have a more meaningful scene with her than the other.

[SueB]

Well, my bet is on Dean because of the kid pic spoiler. 

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, auntvi said:

If it's about Mary's deal with Azazel, it is about Sam. But that doesn't mean that Dean wasn't affected by her death or that they can't talk about it. I hope both sons are able to really talk to Mary, but I'm afraid that would be too much for one episode to do it right. So one will probably have a more meaningful scene with her than the other.

Obviously, the deal is about Sam. What I mean is that I want this to be about how the deal messed up Dean's life in such a profoundly different way than Sam's life. I want it to focus on just how bad it was for Dean. I want it be about how Dean didn't talk for a long time. I don't want Dean and Mary's confrontation to be about how bad it was for Sam and only Sam.

11 minutes ago, SueB said:

Well, my bet is on Dean because of the kid pic spoiler. 

 

I know it's going to involve Dean. I want it to be about how Dean was affected by the trauma.  I'm not saying Sam won't be a part of the conversation, I'm saying I hope this is between Mary and Dean about Dean.

Edited May 1, 2017 by catrox14

[auntvi]

catrox14 - I understand. I don't want to get into who's more deserving of Mary's attention. I'll let you know how I feel after we see the episode. ;)

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, auntvi said:

catrox14 - I understand. I don't want to get into who's more deserving of Mary's attention. I'll let you know how I feel after we see the episode. ;)

I literally never said anything about who's more deserving of Mary's attention.  That's not what I was implying in the least there. There should be a conversation between Mary and Sam about Sam's life and it should be about his life.

Edited May 1, 2017 by catrox14

[Bessie]

I'm telling y'all right now that if there is a conversation about Mary's deal with Azazel, it had better involve both boys or I'm going to be pissed.

That was the pivotal moment in both their lives and they each deserve to be a part of any conversation surrounding it. 

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, Bessie said:

I'm telling y'all right now that if there is a conversation about Mary's deal with Azazel, it had better involve both boys or I'm going to be pissed.

That was the pivotal moment in both their lives and they each deserve to be a part of any conversation surrounding it. 

I think they should each have their own separate conversations with Mary since they were each affected in different ways. I'd like to hear them talk about it with her without the other one around to get their own full perspectives of their own individual lives.

Edited May 1, 2017 by catrox14

[mertensia]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I understand.

I'm saying that I don't want Mary to say a WORD about his current state of his existence compared to when she knew him as a 4 year old.  Especially since she hasn't bothered to spend time around him beyond seeing him hunt and eat pie like an overly excited 4 year old. She hasn't been around to see his nurturing, worried side. His goofy silly dorky side.

I only want Mary to say she's sorry, that she knows he's a wonderful man who has done the best he could with his life given how her deal fucked up his life and John's and Sam's. I don't want to even hear her say anything about what might have been.  Because how will that be good for Dean?

She did  see Dean's nurturing, caring side. In episode one of this season.

[ILoveReading]

We know this week Dean is going to reach out to Mary and tell her he needs her help.  I'm guessing he's stopped calling Cas. 

[mertensia]

Well, after all, Cas is an uncle? great-uncle? to baby nephilim. Family time! No cellphones allowed!

[MysteryGuest]

I guess I'm in the minority, because I really don't need to see some big confrontation or apology scene about Mary's deal with Azazel.  I don't think either Sam or Dean harbor any resentment toward her for making that deal.  They've made deals themselves, knowing far more about the repercussions of their decisions than she did when she made her deal. And like Cas told them, their destiny was pre-determined.  

If their plan is to kill her off by the end of this season, then I'm sure we'll get some big, emotional scene.  But I'd rather it be something that would heal their current relationship.  I'm not sure what that would be, and I honestly wish they'd keep her around to let them have the relationship they'd like with her, but I doubt we'll get that.  

[DittyDotDot]

I think any confrontation with Mary is more likely to be about their current relationship. Mary has rejected their life's work by trying to give them a life without hunting. I think it likely we'll get Mary acknowledging that she was wrong about her assessment of their lives and she should've tried to get to know them rather than running away from her own guilt and fears. 

Or, that's my hope anyway.

BTW, I had a strange dream last night and in it, Mary was possessed by the last Prince of Hell. I don't think that's where the show's going, but kinda weirded me out.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

BTW, I had a strange dream last night and in it, Mary was possessed by the last Prince of Hell. I don't think that's where the show's going, but kinda weirded me out.

Having visions now @DittyDotDot?  Didn't Chuck have visions before he wrote his stories?  ;)

[DittyDotDot]

30 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Having visions now @DittyDotDot?  Didn't Chuck have visions before he wrote his stories?  ;)

Huh...I have been prone to headaches lately...maybe it's not just allergies? ;)

Edited May 1, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[SueB]

44 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I guess I'm in the minority, because I really don't need to see some big confrontation or apology scene about Mary's deal with Azazel.  I don't think either Sam or Dean harbor any resentment toward her for making that deal.  They've made deals themselves, knowing far more about the repercussions of their decisions than she did when she made her deal. And like Cas told them, their destiny was pre-determined.  

If their plan is to kill her off by the end of this season, then I'm sure we'll get some big, emotional scene.  But I'd rather it be something that would heal their current relationship.  I'm not sure what that would be, and I honestly wish they'd keep her around to let them have the relationship they'd like with her, but I doubt we'll get that.  

Oh, I definitely WANT a discussion between Mary and the boys about the 'now' versus the past. The bit about Azazel's deal comes from the script snippet we saw.  And now we see a pic of young Dean on IMDB.  And with the 'evil or not' baby question, the nature vs nurture seemed like a series-level theme that would be ripe for re-discussion.  That's the only reason I'm talking about it.  

But I think it is Mary, not the boys, who is holding onto the past.  When I wrote about my hopes for a conversation, I'm hoping that Mary recognizes that the boys are great in spite of those challenges and to just accept who they are now. 

Edited May 1, 2017 by SueB

[catrox14]

6 hours ago, mertensia said:

She did  see Dean's nurturing, caring side. In episode one of this season.

That was one day, maybe a week. 

For Mary to potentially assess Dean as "scary" and say it to his face implies that whatever nurturing side she saw in the first episode was apparently not enough for her to see that he's still partly that sweet 4 year old that tried to take care of her and tries to take care of other people.  Mary would be making a largely superficial judgment either way on Dean since it's not been shown that she ever asked Dean about his life, his loves, his hopes, his dreams, his fears, his worries as the man he is now.

 

Now, if Sue B is correct in her spec, that such a comment  from Mary in the "nature vs nurture" theme, would trigger Dean to tell her where to get off, maybe he'll say, "You know nothing about me or my life. You haven't bothered to see all of me." I would find that satisfying.

1 hour ago, SueB said:

But I think it is Mary, not the boys, who is holding onto the past.  When I wrote about my hopes for a conversation, I'm hoping that Mary recognizes that the boys are great in spite of those challenges and to just accept who they are now. 

Sadly, I'm not particularly convinced that Mary will be able to make that connection. At least not for another season, if this carries on into next season. 

Edited May 1, 2017 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

Quote

For Mary to potentially assess Dean as "scary" and say it to his face

Seeing as she has been pretty cold so far and even has no trouble banging Mr.Psychopathy, I`m not even sure Dean would register as anything remotely scary on her radar. I mean, the bar seems to be pretty high for her. I`d sooner believe she would use the opposite as an insult, that he is too soft. Which kinda was what she did in the Raid by "you are not a child". She more or less implied he was a whiny baby there. It also fits with the general theme of the show in that Dean is usually insulted as "weak". Scary implies the opposite, in a way, it is even a compliment. 

[Diane]

[Myrelle]

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think any confrontation with Mary is more likely to be about their current relationship. Mary has rejected their life's work by trying to give them a life without hunting. I think it likely we'll get Mary acknowledging that she was wrong about her assessment of their lives and she should've tried to get to know them rather than running away from her own guilt and fears. 

Or, that's my hope anyway.

 

3 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I guess I'm in the minority, because I really don't need to see some big confrontation or apology scene about Mary's deal with Azazel.  I don't think either Sam or Dean harbor any resentment toward her for making that deal.  They've made deals themselves, knowing far more about the repercussions of their decisions than she did when she made her deal. And like Cas told them, their destiny was pre-determined.

IA with the top post and I'm hoping that when Dean mentions the deal it's just part and parcel of how she's mistaken in thinking that she, and she alone, can protect them from anything or anyone in a look-how-well-that-turned-out way for them; and she was again trying to protect them and shield them from everything and anything to do with hunting. That was the feeling I got from what those sides said and that would be fine IF Dean also hits her with how not only Sam's life was affected by her trying to protect them in this way.

And they ARE no longer children, as she herself said, and so she should not be treating them as if they still are children by deciding things for them w/o their input or knowledge and especially by not telling them things AKA keeping secrets from them and leaving them out of the loop ESPECIALLY if they hunt together because THAT makes things more dangerous for them and any protection she thinks she might be giving them is there only in her own mind.

I need to see DEAN'S childhood discussed and Dean's POV on it when Dean and Mary talk, not just Sam's. That is what I've been hoping to see from the moment Amara decided to give Dean what he "needed"-because IMO, THAT is what he really needs and has needed for a very long time; since the beginning of this series, tbh.

And ITA that they should each have their own conversation with her about their own childhoods because yes, her deal and her death that resulted from it, affected each of them very differently, but very profoundly, in both cases; and both are worthy of their own scenes in which to discuss this and their own childhoods with their mother.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Myrelle

[goldy]

[catrox14]

[rue721]

9 hours ago, SueB said:

But I think it is Mary, not the boys, who is holding onto the past.  When I wrote about my hopes for a conversation, I'm hoping that Mary recognizes that the boys are great in spite of those challenges and to just accept who they are now. 

Honestly, I am fine with Mary being disappointed in her sons and their life choices. Isn't that pretty normal, really? They didn't do things how she wanted, make the choices she wanted, and she can't really do anything about that (although god help her, she's trying).

To add insult to injury, all her hopes and dreams for her own life got dashed, and now she can't even live vicariously through her sons goddammit. ;)

I don't care if she accepts them or not. I DO hope they all learn to get along OK, regardless of how disappointed she is with them and they are with her lol

6 hours ago, Myrelle said:

I need to see DEAN'S childhood discussed and Dean's POV on it when Dean and Mary talk, not just Sam's. That is what I've been hoping to see from the moment Amara decided to give Dean what he "needed"-because IMO, THAT is what he really needs and has needed for a very long time; since the beginning of this series, tbh.

UO but I think that a conversation like that would be too contrived.

I think there's going to be some kind of confrontation based on the sides we saw, but personally, I'm hoping it's pretty understated.

[companionenvy]

2 hours ago, rue721 said:

Honestly, I am fine with Mary being disappointed in her sons and their life choices. Isn't that pretty normal, really? They didn't do things how she wanted, make the choices she wanted, and she can't really do anything about that (although god help her, she's trying

I'm OK with her being disappointed in the way their lives turned out, but not in blaming them for their choices. For most of the run of the show, they really haven't had a choice at all, and its debatable whether or not they'd really be able to start up any kind of normal life now (I think they could leave hunting, in theory, but it would involve going very off the grid, and even then there's a reasonable chance they'd get sucked back into hunting through no fault of their own). Even if leaving hunting were a real choice, it would mean willfully turning their backs on a supernatural world that they are more equipped than anyone to handle. Mary has no room to judge them.

Of course, I'm not sure she is judging them -- she wants to eliminate monsters so that they won't  have to hunt anymore. 

[rue721]

10 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Of course, I'm not sure she is judging them -- she wants to eliminate monsters so that they won't  have to hunt anymore. 

My perception is that she's definitely not happy with how their lives have turned out. She seems a lot more angry, frustrated, and sad than she does proud IMO. (Of herself AND them).

She sounded so bitter, for example, when she practically spat at Sam that "since when is life about getting what we want."

10 hours ago, companionenvy said:

For most of the run of the show, they really haven't had a choice at all, and its debatable whether or not they'd really be able to start up any kind of normal life now

Oh yeah, I don't think they've had any "real" choice. Sam tried to make the choice to turn his back on hunting, and YED promptly murdered his girlfriend to drag him back in. It would presumably have just escalated from there. And Dean might theoretically have had more of a choice, since YED didn't take such an interest in him, but *John* had an interest in him and in Dean being in the game, and that was going to keep Dean there long enough to make it practically impossible for him to get out.

That said, I think that for Mary, the disappointment is mainly stemming from a loss of control. I think she feels a total lack of control over her own life and choices, since all the choices she made in choosing her life's path -- to step away from hunting, to be with John, to raise a family in a "normal" white picket fence way, etc -- have been ripped away from her or outright undone. The only one that has "stuck," unfortunately, is her choice to make the deal. And to be fair to her, I understand why and how she made it. Her life was in ruins and she was literally holding a dead body in her arms when she made that deal.

Anyway, whatever choices her sons might have made or might still make are not the ones that Mary would, because they aren't Mary. Mary can't control them or their lives any more than she can control her own life (actually, quite a bit less), and I think that's what is getting under her skin -- that she's so powerless. So I think that Mary would essentially be disappointed/frustrated towards them and their life choices pretty much no matter what those lives or choices would have been -- even if those choices had been to go to law school, to marry Jessica, whatever -- because her problem with them is not necessarily what their lives are like or the specific choices they made, but might be just that she's powerless either way.

Again, though, I'm getting that more from the vibe that Mary is giving off than I am from any specific dialogue from her or anything. So of course, I expect that YMMV.

Edited May 2, 2017 by rue721

[Diane]

Not sure if this info was already posted:

 

Ep 21: There's Something About Mary : MARY VS. TONI BEVELL – Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) are alarmed when they learn hunters are being killed by suspicious “accidents” all over the country. They decide it is best to find Mary (guest star Samantha Smith) and make sure she’s safe. Meanwhile, Toni (guest star Elizabeth Blackmore) is back in the states and she and Mary face off. Writer: Brad Buckner and Eugenie Ross-Leming Director: P.J. Pesce

EP 22: Who We Are: FAMILY - Caught in a dangerous situation, Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) only have each other to rely on. Meanwhile, the fight between the American Hunters and the British Hunters comes to a head. Writer: Robert Berens Director: John Showalter

EP 23: All Along the Watchtower: EPIC SEASON FINALE - Lucifer (Mark Pellegrino) battles Sam (Jared Padalecki), Dean (Jensen Ackles) and Castiel (Misha Collins) for control of his unborn child. Writer: Andrew Dabb Director: Robert Singer

[RulerofallIsurvey]

11 minutes ago, Diane said:

Ep 21: There's Something About Mary : MARY VS. TONI BEVELL

Eh...I'd rather see Sam and/or Dean face off against Lady Ohpleaseletmekillher than Mary.  I understand why they probably feel like they have to have Mary do it though.  I mean, great big ol' guys like Sam and Dean against a much smaller woman?  Not much of a fight (at least it shouldn't be.)  So, to avoid any negative misogynistic-type tones or comments, they probably feel they need to have a woman fight a woman.  I hope that Mary doesn't get to kill her (if she dies) and that Sam - as the one she tortured the most - really gets to be the one to deal with her.  

11 minutes ago, Diane said:

EP 22: Who We Are: FAMILY - Caught in a dangerous situation, Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) only have each other to rely on. Meanwhile, the fight between the American Hunters and the British Hunters comes to a head.

I really hope we get to see a lot of other good-guy (and gals - not to be sexist!) American hunters like Wally (RIP Wally) joining together and going after the BMoL - very "The Patriot" style.  

Edited May 2, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey
Don't forget about the ladies.

[gonzosgirrl]

4 hours ago, rue721 said:

My perception is that she's definitely not happy with how their lives have turned out. She seems a lot more angry, frustrated, and sad than she does proud IMO. (Of herself AND them).

She sounded so bitter, for example, when she practically spat at Sam that "since when is life about getting what we want."

Oh yeah, I don't think they've had any "real" choice. Sam tried to make the choice to turn his back on hunting, and YED promptly murdered his girlfriend to drag him back in. It would presumably have just escalated from there. And Dean might theoretically have had more of a choice, since YED didn't take such an interest in him, but *John* had an interest in him and in Dean being in the game, and that was going to keep Dean there long enough to make it practically impossible for him to get out.

That said, I think that for Mary, the disappointment is mainly stemming from a loss of control. I think she feels a total lack of control over her own life and choices, since all the choices she made in choosing her life's path -- to step away from hunting, to be with John, to raise a family in a "normal" white picket fence way, etc -- have been ripped away from her or outright undone. The only one that has "stuck," unfortunately, is her choice to make the deal. And to be fair to her, I understand why and how she made it. Her life was in ruins and she was literally holding a dead body in her arms when she made that deal.

Anyway, whatever choices her sons might have made or might still make are not the ones that Mary would, because they aren't Mary. Mary can't control them or their lives any more than she can control her own life (actually, quite a bit less), and I think that's what is getting under her skin -- that she's so powerless. So I think that Mary would essentially be disappointed/frustrated towards them and their life choices pretty much no matter what those lives or choices would have been -- even if those choices had been to go to law school, to marry Jessica, whatever -- because her problem with them is not necessarily what their lives are like or the specific choices they made, but might be just that she's powerless either way.

Again, though, I'm getting that more from the vibe that Mary is giving off than I am from any specific dialogue from her or anything. So of course, I expect that YMMV.

Re the bolded, that turned out to be not-quite-true in Dabb's LOL!Canon S12 world. We know from Celebrating the Life of Asa Fox that Mary chose to go hunting on her own, even after Dean was born. Which also make her lack of any warning to John or protections on their home even more sketchy, but that's another post.

I don't think there is any way of killing her off now without ripping out Dean's heart (again), and for that I loathe Dabb & Co most of all, but I also don't have enough faith in these writers to redeem her in any kind of satisfying way. And for me, she does need redemption - not for her deal, which she did without knowing the true consequences of it (much like Dean & the Mark) - but for her lack of interest in knowing anything about her grown sons that doesn't come from John's journal. The writers' choice to have her  shun them in favor of working on her own (and then with the BMoL) because the ends justify the means, was a poor one. They didn't write a strong, independent hunter who happened to be a woman, they wrote a female John Winchester.

All that said, I have no issue with them having her kick and/or end Toni's ass - as long as Dean and Sam aren't damsels in distress while she does it. My only hope, albeit faint at this point, is that it's Dean who gets to end Ketch, if for no other reason than him stealing Dean's photo.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

They didn't write a strong, independent hunter who happened to be a woman, they wrote a female John Winchester.

I think John came across better at this point. As much as I disliked him at times, at least I didn`t question if blood flowed through his veins instead of ice water.  

Quote

My only hope, albeit faint at this point, is that it's Dean who gets to end Ketch, if for no other reason than him stealing Dean's photo.

They made Ketch very much a Mary-character so I suppose she will be the one to kill him. Is he supposed to be in episodes beyond this next one? If not, I can ultimately see her winning that fight.

Not sure why she is gonna "face off" against Lady Deadeyes. Or even why Lady Deadeyes is back. The character seems ill-fitting at this point. The BMOL have no shortage on psychopaths as it is.      

[gonzosgirrl]

11 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think John came across better at this point. As much as I disliked him at times, at least I didn`t question if blood flowed through his veins instead of ice water.  

 

Amen to that.  In the end, John sacrificed himself (and the Colt) to save Dean. Mary wasn't even willing to give up the gun when both of her sons' lives were at stake.

Edited May 2, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[RulerofallIsurvey]

13 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Not sure why she is gonna "face off" against Lady Deadeyes. Or even why Lady Deadeyes is back.

Seeing as how in the promo for this week's ep, at the very end it looks like Mary is tied to a chair and Sketch is pulling out a hypodermic needle?  (Long angel torture nail?) I wonder if Lady Somebodydropherinavatofboilingoil is their resident sociopathic interrogation specialist - and comes back to do her number on Mary, and that's when she and Mary 'face off'.  Though I will say - if Mary gets away from her when Sam couldn't....I will be shaking my head hard at that.  

Which leads to:

4 hours ago, Diane said:

They decide it is best to find Mary (guest star Samantha Smith) and make sure she’s safe.

Yep.  I hope the guys have to save Mary from the BMoL.  

Edited May 2, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey
thought of something else. It happens...

[Diane]

2 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

 Lady Somebodydropherinavatofboilingoil

That may be one of my favorites.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Though I will say - if Mary gets away from her when Sam couldn't....I will be shaking my head hard at that.  

They do this kind of stuff all the time. At least this wouldn`t be another knock at Dean`s expense. Sam on the other hand build up so much badass cred this year, he can take it. 

[ILoveReading]

11 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

 

They made Ketch very much a Mary-character so I suppose she will be the one to kill him. Is he supposed to be in episodes beyond this next one? If not, I can ultimately see her winning that fight.

Not sure why she is gonna "face off" against Lady Deadeyes. Or even why Lady Deadeyes is back. The character seems ill-fitting at this point. The BMOL have no shortage on psychopaths as it is.      

I think Ketch's last episode is 22. 

Based on the pics and promo and spoilers for upcoming press releases, I think it the next few eps will play out by the numbers.

Dean calls Mary.  Mary because we're running out of episodes and its time to start her redemption    decides to be a mom for once.  She goes to Ketch to tell him she needs some personal time and ends up overhearing something she shouldn't, and tries to leave.  The code won't let her.  She and Ketch fight.  Ketch gets the upper hand and takes Mary hostage.

Dean is left thinking his mom is ignoring his calls. 

Episode 21    LadyHorrible, who isn't actually on the outs with the organization shows up to treat Mary like the rogue hunter that she is.   They have their face off, Sam and Dean spin their wheels looking for her.

Episode 22- I think the bunker is infiltrated by the Brits (which the dangerous situation where they only have each other) and Mary manages to break free and  kill Toni and try to get to the bunker. Dean, who faces off with Ketch will probably be losing the fight.  At the last minute, when Dean is about to die, Mary who managed not to get lost shows up at just the right time to kill Ketch and save Dean.

[catrox14]

36 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Not sure why she is gonna "face off" against Lady Deadeyes. Or even why Lady Deadeyes is back. The character seems ill-fitting at this point. The BMOL have no shortage on psychopaths as it is.      

My guess is that Mary is going to find out somehow that Lady IHateHerSoMuch and Ketch have a kid.  You know what would be an awesome swerve IMO, is Mary tries to use that kid as leverage against her, Ketch, and the BMOL.

I'm sure it won't happen but I would actually kind of admire Mary for pushing things that far

Edited May 2, 2017 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Dean calls Mary.  Mary because we're running out of episodes and its time to start her redemption    decides to be a mom for once.  She goes to Ketch to tell him she needs some personal time and ends up overhearing something she shouldn't, and tries to leave.  The code won't let her.  She and Ketch fight.  Ketch gets the upper hand and takes Mary hostage.

Dean is left thinking his mom is ignoring his calls. 

Episode 21    LadyHorrible, who isn't actually on the outs with the organization shows up to treat Mary like the rogue hunter that she is.   They have their face off, Sam and Dean spin their wheels looking for her.

Episode 22- I think the bunker is infiltrated by the Brits (which the dangerous situation where they only have each other) and Mary manages to break free and  kill Toni and try to get to the bunker. Dean, who faces off with Ketch will probably be losing the fight.  At the last minute, when Dean is about to die, Mary who managed not to get lost shows up at just the right time to kill Ketch and save Dean.

Sounds very plausible. Of course that wouldn`t redeem Mary to me in the least because, well, she is already called Mary, add one more name and you`re there. And they already did that in the very first episode.

That clip thing where Dean was shooting a gun in the bunker, was that from 22? I can`t remember which ep they were shooting at the time. 

Edited May 2, 2017 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

That clip thing where Dean was shooting a gun in the bunker, was that from 22? I can`t remember which ep they were shooting at the time. 

I think it was 12.20 or 12.21 since the pic was posted Apr 3 assuming it was from that morning of filming. 

[SueB]

27 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Re the bolded, that turned out to be not-quite-true in Dabb's LOL!Canon S12 world. We know from Celebrating the Life of Asa Fox that Mary chose to go hunting on her own, even after Dean was born. Which also make her lack of any warning to John or protections on their home even more sketchy, but that's another post.

I don't think there is any way of killing her off now without ripping out Dean's heart (again), and for that I loathe Dabb & Co most of all, but I also don't have enough faith in these writers to redeem her in any kind of satisfying way. And for me, she does need redemption - not for her deal, which she did without knowing the true consequences of it (much like Dean & the Mark) - but for her lack of interest in knowing anything about her grown sons that doesn't come from John's journal. The writers' choice to have her  shun them in favor of working on her own (and then with the BMoL) because the ends justify the means, was a poor one. They didn't write a strong, independent hunter who happened to be a woman, they wrote a female John Winchester.

All that said, I have no issue with them having her kick and/or end Toni's ass - as long as Dean and Sam aren't damsels in distress while she does it. My only hope, albeit faint at this point, is that it's Dean who gets to end Ketch, if for no other reason than him stealing Dean's photo.

Taking my response to the bolded in the Mary Winchester thread.

[goldy]

[Wayward Son]

Based on that clip I think we are going to end up with a major Cas vs brothers scene that will involve one of them shooting at him with the colt! 

The fact that Immediately after Dean says "Last night when I looked at him I did not recognise the guy looking back at me" Sam reveals the Colt and they start discussing fixing it suggests they're already considering the idea they may have to use it against him.

[Geordiegirl1967]

What is up with Sam in thIs clip? It looks like he is building up to or holding back from saying something Dean isn't going to like.

I'm surprised to see the Colt in such good condition. It looked like it was toast last week. 

Clearly foreshadowing a showdown between Dean and Sam and Cas. 

[catrox14]

God frakkin' dammit.

I hate that whole stupid fake out with the Colt.  Did the Colt save itself? 

Okay, explain to me why Dean, the mechanically inclined, engineering minded, weapons focused, also highly intelligent guy is asking if Sam can fix the Colt? Really, show? Seriously? Wow. Just wow. Yup, I'm off to the bitterness thread.

I refuse to entertain the idea that the boys will kill Cas with it.  That said, wouldn't it be something to find out that  that Cas has always been one of the 5 things the Colt can't kill. I'm holding on to that hope

3 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

What is up with Sam in thIs clip? It looks like he is building up to or holding back from saying something Dean isn't going to like.

I suspect Sam is going to tell Dean that they'll have to consider killing Cas.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Okay, explain to me why Dean, the mechanically inclined, engineering minded, weapons focused, also highly intelligent guy is asking if Sam can fix the Colt?

Because Dean is still mind-whammied and doesn`t remember any of his previous skills. 

[ILoveReading]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Okay, explain to me why Dean, the mechanically inclined, engineering minded, weapons focused, also highly intelligent guy is asking if Sam can fix the Colt? Really, show? Seriously? Wow. Just wow. Yup, I'm off to the bitterness thread.

It looks like he doubled that Valium dose.

[SueB]

Or Sam, who is more the "lore" guy, has to look at it.  Dean can mechanically fix the weapon, but it's the lore that is the dominant issue. 

I'm glad they didn't throw it away.

I'm worried about Dean thinking Cas is not Cas. 

[Diane]

Just now, SueB said:

Or Sam, who is more the "lore" guy, has to look at it.  Dean can mechanically fix the weapon, but it's the lore that is the dominant issue. 

I'm glad they didn't throw it away.

I'm worried about Dean thinking Cas is not Cas. 

That makes to much sense (bolded part).  I agree Sam may need to do some research and then they can work on fixing it.  And no I am not saying that Dean is not capable, because he is, but this being a show about both people I don't expect Dean to do it all. I am worried about the Dean and Cas thing too. I am hoping that they are not going with Cas not being himself.  Hopefully we will learn more tomorrow night.