Spoilers With Speculation

[Geordiegirl1967]

6 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

It could be fun if Mary were to succeed (temporarily) and we were treated to a What Is and What Should Never Be Part II.

It could be Mary with young Sam and Dean - giving the Js time off. It could show her that no matter what she does they still end up as hunters. I actually think that would make a great ep.

[bearcatfan]

15 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

A question occurs...do Sam and Dean even know Gavin is alive? Who was it let him stay in the future? I thought it was Crowley when he was supposed to put him back on the ship to correct the natural order. I thought he lied to S&D about it. Am I misremembering?

IIRC, Sam and Dean told Crowley that Gavin would have to go back and Crowley asked for a moment to say goodbye. Sam and Dean realized something was up (too much time, too quiet?) and saw that Crowley and Gavin were gone. I don't think they ever spoke of it again but I'm sure they realize that Crowley didn't take him back.

[catrox14]

20 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Sneak peek is out. Is this the right place for it?

http://www.tvinsider.com/126984/supernatural-preview-rowena-meets-grandson-gavin/

A question occurs...do Sam and Dean even know Gavin is alive? Who was it let him stay in the future? I thought it was Crowley when he was supposed to put him back on the ship to correct the natural order. I thought he lied to S&D about it. Am I misremembering?

I think they suspected he didn't because he shut the door on them and disappeared with Gavin.

[Geordiegirl1967]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think they suspected he didn't because he shut the door on them and disappeared with Gavin.

Does raise the question of how they found him though. Maybe Rowena can track her own blood?

[Wayward Son]

3 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Does raise the question of how they found him though. Maybe Rowena can track her own blood?

I think that was the implication of the clip. It's not like Rowena is anything but a dodgy ally to them :). 

The one thing I'm wary of in this clip is her attitude to Gavin. I hope she is just playing nice to get him to help them. I know they hinted at her changing in Remembering Dean, but it is far too soon to have her go from the mother who despises her own son to the doting "you look just like my father" grandmother.

[rue721]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I speculated in the episode thread that maybe Dean was in cahoots with Mary

I just can't imagine either Sam or Dean being OK with a "Dead Alive Mary, Double Agent" plan, esp if the goal of the plan was their own benefit. They're  trying to let her do her own thing, but I would think they'd still be more protective than THAT?

[catrox14]

17 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Mary might think that would work but we know it can't because it would change everything that has ever happened on the show. I think she would undo it all if she could though.

Bringing Mary back to life always had the potential to change everything in the show. I mean to me I don't see why they resurrected her  if she isn't going to have some huge impact on the boys lives and the show. Her coming back to life just to hunt and and destroy Deans childhood memories, and avoid being in their company as emotional as that was, is pretty meh to me.

[rue721]

9 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I think that was the implication of the clip. It's not like Rowena is anything but a dodgy ally to them :). 

The one thing I'm wary of in this clip is her attitude to Gavin. I hope she is just playing nice to get him to help them. I know they hinted at her changing in Remembering Dean, but it is far too soon to have her go from the mother who despises her own son to the doting "you look just like my father" grandmother.

I think the thing of being a terrible parent but being a wonderful grandparent is pretty common in real life. So it actually wouldn't bother me. And to be honest, I'd kind of like the dramz ;) I'm always up for family drama on tv. YMMV of course! :)

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, rue721 said:

I just can't imagine either Sam or Dean being OK with a "Dead Alive Mary, Double Agent" plan, esp if the goal of the plan was their own benefit. They're  trying to let her do her own thing, but I would think they'd still be more protective than THAT?

I don't understand. I I didn't say it was for their own benefits. I said it was their own motivations which might be for what they think is the greater good. Like a chance to right some wrongs.

[Myrelle]

She needs to let go of the little boys she left in Heaven because as real as they might have been to her what's truly real is who they are now and all she really knows about them is that they're hunters and that that's something she never wanted for them. She needs to get out of her own headspace and really see them for who they are now and get to know them as the adults that they are now; but she's not bothering to do that. She's just rushing head-long into trying to make things be more as she wanted/wants them to be, without consulting them about it at all. Again, very John-like, in so many ways, IMO. I'm now waiting for her to say, "You're my children, it's my job to look out for you."-or whatever he said to them in that S1 episode.

Edited February 22, 2017 by Myrelle

[rue721]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't understand. I I didn't say it was for their own benefits. I said it was their own motivations which might be for what they think is the greater good. Like a chance to right some wrongs.

I thought you had said that Dean would be in cahoots with Mary bc he'd want to go in on a plan to get rid of all monsters in order to make the world safe enough that Sam could quit hunting? That's what I meant by their own benefit. 

But regardless, I don't think they'd be OK with a plan that involves Mary going into such a dangerous situation essentially alone.

[goldy]

[PAForrest]

58 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think they suspected he didn't because he shut the door on them and disappeared with Gavin.

They knew Crowley took off with Gavin and that he never got sent back to his own TL, so they've always known he was still alive somewhere.

Cute enough scene.

I also like the clip with Dean being suspicious of Mary, because he should be. Mommy Dearest is cagey.

[catrox14]

22 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I thought you had said that Dean would be in cahoots with Mary bc he'd want to go in on a plan to get rid of all monsters in order to make the world safe enough that Sam could quit hunting? That's what I meant by their own benefit. 

But regardless, I don't think they'd be OK with a plan that involves Mary going into such a dangerous situation essentially alone.

 I guess I don't see that as to their own benefit. If all monsters are dead and gone there is no  need for Sam to hunt. It's win win.

[catrox14]

Interesting  clip. I no longer spec that Dean  is in cahoots with Mary. I stand by my spec  he did ping she was hiding something in 12.12.

[Boopsahoy]

When I watched the episode, I thought that in the scene where Mary is about to confess to being the thief (and Dean says something like never mind lets go home) that was Dean covering for her. I thought he realized she must be the thief and didn't want to put her on the spot. But now I was talking to some folks on FB and they are thinking that maybe Dean is in cahoots with her? Are they playing the long con together? Did he know the colt was there and wanted it?  Im starting to think that may be the case-only because would TOTB really ruin the character of Mary that fully???

[Myrelle]

9 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

I also like the clip with Dean being suspicious of Mary, because he should be. Mommy Dearest is cagey.

I loved that second clip. And loved Dean in both of them. "We lied." No sugar coating of the truth in the first one; and he knows something's up with mom in the second one. Instincts, baby. Instincts.

[Myrelle]

23 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Interesting  clip. I no longer spec that Dean  is in cahoots with Mary. I stand by my spec  he did ping she was hiding something in 12.12.

He radiated distrust and disappointment at the same time in the clip-beautifully Ackted. And plain Beautiful in general. YUM!

 

22 minutes ago, Boopsahoy said:

When I watched the episode, I thought that in the scene where Mary is about to confess to being the thief (and Dean says something like never mind lets go home) that was Dean covering for her. I thought he realized she must be the thief and didn't want to put her on the spot.

ProtectorDean, most likely. She's still family.

Edited February 22, 2017 by Myrelle

[rue721]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

 I guess I don't see that as to their own benefit. If all monsters are dead and gone there is no  need for Sam to hunt. It's win win.

Yeah, true. My point is that I don't think they would be OK with Mary going into these dangerous situations with no backup. It's just so crazy and stupid. Honestly, in their shoes, Mary deciding to be some kind of mole or double agent or whatever and run around doing misguided heroics would be enough to make me throw up my hands and be like, I can't handle this. The anxiety alone would be too much. This woman has a serious death wish, and who wants to watch their parent kill themselves?!

I don't want her to die AGAIN -- and damn how traumatizing would it be for Sam and Dean to try and deal with her SECOND death? Her first one already defined their lives for decades, maybe forever.

And what would be the practical point of a "mission" like that anyway? It's not like there's a ton of intel that they need on the BMOL, and it's not that Mary is someone that the BMOL would especially trust and respect and therefore give any real access to.

But anyway, it's kind of moot bc it's clear from this new clip that Dean is just suspicious of her rather than in cahoots with her. Thank goodness.

Sam and his innocent face and constant use of "mom" continue to break my heart!

[Aeryn13]

I don`t think they gave even the slightest hints that Dean was in on anything with Mary. He was sarcastically suspicious when she got that phone call and lied about it in that diner. And I think even Mary realized in that moment that she wasn`t a convincing liar and that Dean was suspicious. Her second lie about never being able to have too many friends in this job sounded hella defensive.

This new clip is another instance where Dean relays information about/from Mary to Sam. Maybe that`s why Sam hasn`t caught on? They don`t talk that much so he doesn`t get hit with all the shadyness in person?

Hopefully, that`s not gonna be some big new source of angst between them. For one, we know Dean`s instincts are correct but what`s worse, the audience is far ahead of the characters in their knowledge of Mary`s lies so even suspicions won`t cut it for long. It will be a continuous game of "oh, find it out already". 

[Wynne88]

Quote

This new clip is another instance where Dean relays information about/from Mary to Sam. Maybe that`s why Sam hasn`t caught on? 

I hope so.  Otherwise he gets points for sheer obliviousness.

[SueB]

2 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

I hope so.  Otherwise he gets points for sheer obliviousness.

I think Sam gave Mary more space than Dean at the start. And perhaps Mary realized that if she doesn't keep a certain amount of contact w/ Dean, he'll come find her.  

I'm glad Dean twigged on to "something isn't right".  This has to come out and the sooner it does, the better.

I'm looking forward to Rowena/Crowley/Gavin interaction.  And I REALLY want to see an actual thankyou from Sam and Dean for Cas.  That's not going to happen, I just want to see it.  

[companionenvy]

My sense of Sam and Dean's respective attitudes toward Mary is that Sam, because he didn't have prior memories of Mary, is willing to take what he can get from his mother. More than that, he (subconsciously, I think) doesn't want to risk asking for more because if he doesn't ask, he can't be disappointed. Part of this is a willingness to go maybe a little too far in excusing her - "mom needs space" is a rationalization that helps Sam as much as it justifies Mary. So, when Sam is actually with Mary, he has the easier and warmer relationship, but that's contingent on not looking for more than she is willing or able to give when she isn't around.

Dean can't go there because he does have memories of his mother, however rose-tinted, so when Mary isn't ready to be as much of a mom to him as he wants her to be -- or even as much as she should be -- the difference between what Mary should be, and in his memory, was and what she now is is too stark for comforting justifications. And even if he reluctantly accepts the "give her space" party line, he is still going to be seeking out opportunities for connection, because he can't delude himself into being satisfied with the status quo.

That isn't to say I don't think there is an element of justice in Sam's perspective -- I think Mary is still a sympathetic character, and find her difficulty adjusting to her return to life understandable. But just because I get it doesn't mean I excuse it. She does have a responsibility to be more present for her sons than she has been, even if that doesn't mean living full-time at the bunker and accompanying them on every hunt.  

[auntvi]

1 hour ago, Wynne88 said:

I hope so.  Otherwise he gets points for sheer obliviousness.

I was sure Sam was suspicious when he said, "Mom, what have you gotten us into?" Oh god, more angst coming.

[ILoveReading]

47 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

 

Dean can't go there because he does have memories of his mother, however rose-tinted, so when Mary isn't ready to be as much of a mom to him as he wants her to be -- or even as much as she should be -- the difference between what Mary should be, and in his memory, was and what she now is is too stark for comforting justifications. And even if he reluctantly accepts the "give her space" party line, he is still going to be seeking out opportunities for connection, because he can't delude himself into being satisfied with the status quo.

 

I think this is a part of it, but I also believe we're seeing Dean's abandonment issues coming into play.  Mary demonstrated she wasn't the Mary of his memories pretty early on.  (I think that was why he was drinking and looking at old pics).  Dean did try to be very accommodating during The Foundry.  I think he was making an effort to reconcile this Mary than the one in his dreams but that stopped when she left.  That little step back,, his refusal to look at her,  I think during that time he was hastily building those walls.  So when he sees her, he's prepared for her to leave again.  So even though he probably wants to reach out, he can't quite let himself out of fear of being rejected again.

I think this is why he's better with the electronic communication and with the games.  He can maintain contact, make sure she's alright (Its Dean after all), but still keep her at arms length to due the impersonal nature.  

[Lemuria]

9 hours ago, goldy said:

"Andover, Massachusetts?"  Isn't that where Meg Masters was from?  Is that the only town in MA that the writers know, or are we supposed to be suspicious about this?  (Knowing these writers I lean more towards the former than than the latter.)

[rue721]

12 hours ago, ahrtee said:

My first theory was that Mary starting working with the BMoL in order to keep her boys safe (that is, "a world without supernatural dangers.")  I could see her wanting to get them out of hunting.  She had her meeting with Mr. Ketch right after they barely managed to escape death-by-Billie, when one of them *would* have died because of those "supernatural dangers".  But then there would be no reason for her *not* to use the Colt on Ramiel in order to save them, which brings me to my next theory:  she's being blackmailed by the BMoL.  Probably because they told her about Sam's demon blood and maybe Dean's stint as a demon, and threatened to kill them immediately as "supernatural creatures" themselves, unless she works with them.  She certainly didn't seem happy to be working with them.  

She knows that if she tells Sam and Dean about the blackmail that they'll do something dangerous/stupid, and so she had to trust that they could find a way out of the present danger by themselves (which they did, albeit with outside help) in order to keep the Colt secret.  But I also think that someone (probably Cas, but maybe Dean, because he seemed a little suspicious towards the end of the ep) was spying on the meeting, and everything is going to come out soon, with a lot of angst incoming.

I can't really get behind the theory that Mary is being a secret protective mama bear.

She led Sam and Dean (and Wally) right into a trap. She had to know it was dangerous or else she would have just grabbed the Colt herself. She wanted them there *because* it was dangerous.

That she would lead them into that fight with false or misleading or incomplete info, and just count on them to be able to cover her and take care of whatever supernatural threat got thrown her/their way even in those circumstances, makes me think that she actually OVER-estimates their abilities. I think that when she was reassuring Wally that it would be alright, she really thought it would be -- IMO, again overestimating how much safety Sam and Dean could provide.

And then afterward, she reamed Mr K out for how the mission went pear-shaped and nearly got them killed -- even though SHE lured those men into the situation under false pretenses and with false information, so SHE was the one who had upped the danger of the mission significantly. She also continued to cooperate with Mr. K after that. So I think she's STILL not taking the danger she's putting them in seriously enough.

To me, that just doesn't seem like the attitude or the actions of someone in protective mode.

I also find that she is not very observant about Sam or Dean (or just in general), which is fine as a personality trait, but also makes me think that she's not really in protective mode. You'd think that she'd have her antenna up if she were really feeling like she was the one looking out for them.

Honestly, I think that Mary might be a little too used to being the one being taken care of, rather than the other way around. Which sounds weird because she's such a loner. But I think that the structure, and guidance, and promises of safety that the BMOL offers is what appealed to her about them. I think that the world seems very chaotic to her right now, and here is this organization offering simplicity and order -- and she's vulnerable to promises like that right now.

I also can't get behind the blackmail idea because again, I find Mary OVER-confident when it comes to Sam and Dean as hunters, and that is too cavalier with their (and her) safety rather than the other way around -- so I don't think that a threat to their safety would be enough to make her cooperate if she didn't want to.

Mary just generally seems like someone who would respond better to a carrot than to a stick, so blackmail doesn't seem like a good play on the BMOL's part. Like maybe, if the BMOL offered her a temptation, like maybe "we'll send you back to heaven" or something like that, it might make her jump. But I don't really see her responding that well to direct threats. I think that Mary is overwhelmed right now, but in general, she doesn't seem like the type to be easily intimidated or terrorized.

Also, I just don't see why (as a practical matter) if the BMOL were trying to strong-arm her and she needed help dealing with them, she wouldn't just spill to Sam and Dean, or barring that, at least to Cas, and get some help with it. Or she could at least move back into the bunker if she's THAT worried about someone coming after them.

Edited February 23, 2017 by rue721

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

"Andover, Massachusetts?"  Isn't that where Meg Masters was from?  Is that the only town in MA that the writers know, or are we supposed to be suspicious about this?  (Knowing these writers I lean more towards the former than than the latter.)

I don't think that means anything although maybe given the YED redux. They've had 3 or 4 episodes in MA

[ahrtee]

4 minutes ago, rue721 said:

She led Sam and Dean (and Wally) right into a trap. She had to know it was dangerous or else she would have just grabbed the Colt herself. She wanted them there *because* it was dangerous.

That she would lead them into that fight with false or misleading or incomplete info, and just count on them to be able to cover her and take care of whatever supernatural threat got thrown her/their way even in those circumstances, makes me think that she actually OVER-estimates their abilities. I think that when she was reassuring Wally that it would be alright, she really thought it would be -- IMO, again overestimating how much safety Sam and Dean could provide.

And then afterward, she reamed Mr K out for how the mission went pear-shaped and nearly got them killed -- even though SHE lured those men into the situation under false pretenses and with false information, so SHE was the one who had upped the danger of the mission significantly. She also continued to cooperate with Mr. K after that. So I think she's STILL not taking the danger she's putting them in seriously enough.

Well, we don't know how much info she actually had.  I'm pretty sure Ketch didn't say, "oh, btw, there's a prince of hell and a whole bunch of other demons you'll have to deal with."  She was honestly surprised about the yellow eyes-surprised enough that it made her freeze.  I think she didn't know what/how dangerous he really was until then.  But even so, she made sure they had come prepared for much more than a regular demon (with devil's trap bullets, devil's trap under the rug *and* the knife, plus the angel blade and *five* hunters for one demon) so they were overly prepared, IMO.  I think she was taking all the care she could with the info she was given to protect them.  

Her mission was to get the Colt.  She needed help getting in to the house and past the demon, so calling for backup for a hunt would work.  Without going into the reasons why she wanted the Colt, I think she believed she was doing everything she could to protect them--which put the best demon hunters in front with extra weapons, keeping the inexperienced Wally out of the line of fire and (hopefully) safe in the background, and having two extra hunters as backup.  It's only because there were extra unexpected demons that things went pear-shaped, and Mary seemed just as surprised as everyone that they were there.  That's why she reamed out Mr. Ketch--because *he* had withheld the info from her, and put everyone in danger.  She may have "lured" them into the hunt but AFAIK the only thing she withheld was the fact that she was after the Colt, which was accomplished *before* the demon got there.  So I don't see her being particularly uncaring or not protective.  

25 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I don't get the sense that she's being blackmailed, either. YMMV. Mary just seems like someone who would respond better to a carrot than to a stick, so blackmail doesn't seem like a good play on the BMOL's part. Like maybe, if the BMOL offered her a temptation, like maybe "we'll send you back to heaven" or something like that, it might make her jump. But I don't really see her responding that well to direct threats. I think that Mary is overwhelmed right now, but in general, she doesn't seem like the type to be easily intimidated or terrorized.

We just have a difference of opinion on her character here, I think.  I don't see her being tempted by a carrot, and if she wanted to go back to heaven, all she has to do is pick up a gun (or be a little slower around one of the monsters she's been hunting).  I agree that she's not easily intimidated, but I think a threat to Sam and Dean might work.  After all, they're pretty much the only connection she has to the current time, even if she's not quite sure how to deal with them yet.    

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

We just have a difference of opinion on her character here, I think.  I don't see her being tempted by a carrot, and if she wanted to go back to heaven, all she has to do is pick up a gun (or be a little slower around one of the monsters she's been hunting).  I agree that she's not easily intimidated, but I think a threat to Sam and Dean might work.  After all, they're pretty much the only connection she has to the current time, even if she's not quite sure how to deal with them yet.  

This just reminded me.  Billie promised Mary to take her back to Heaven, but what if the next Reaper doesn't do that? Or she does something to revokes her path back to Heaven?

[rue721]

6 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

But even so, she made sure they had come prepared for much more than a regular demon (with devil's trap bullets, devil's trap under the rug *and* the knife, plus the angel blade and *five* hunters for one demon) so they were overly prepared, IMO.  I think she was taking all the care she could with the info she was given to protect them.  

Honestly, I think that's the absolute least she could do.

Personally, I would be extremely pissed about getting played like she played TFW. It's not just the danger that she put them in by lying about the circumstances of the"mission." Basically, what bothers me is that I think she was using her own sons and friends (to create a diversion) and that she was tricking them into doing something that she knew the wouldn't want to do (help the BMOL). She also exploited their love/trust for her to blind them to what she was doing. That's untrustworthy with a capital U. I like Mary, but I don't like THAT.

13 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I don't see her being tempted by a carrot, and if she wanted to go back to heaven, all she has to do is pick up a gun (or be a little slower around one of the monsters she's been hunting).  I agree that she's not easily intimidated, but I think a threat to Sam and Dean might work.  After all, they're pretty much the only connection she has to the current time, even if she's not quite sure how to deal with them yet.

A gun would kill her, it wouldn't necessarily send her to heaven.

I don't think she's worried about Sam or Dean. She doesn't seem to be in protective mode at all. That's fine, they don't especially need protecting.

But regardless of how "right" or "wrong" she is to treat them as independent, I can't see any evidence that she is feeling or acting protective toward them. I think that the only reason it's even coming up as something she MIGHT be feeling or acting on is because of preconceptions about how a "mom" would act or feel. Or maybe I'm forgetting something. YMMV.

In the case of that Mama Bear theory coming from preconceptions about moms, Mary said herself she's just an individual person, though, not a walking talking mom stereotype. So I think relying on mom stereotypes to explain her feelings or actions is kind of antithetical to where the show has been going with her character.

[ahrtee]

5 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Personally, I would be extremely pissed about getting played like she played TFW. It's not just the danger that she put them in by lying about the circumstances of the"mission." Basically, what bothers me is that I think she was using her own sons and friends (to create a diversion) and that she was tricking them into doing something that she knew the wouldn't want to do (help the BMOL). She also exploited their love/trust for her to blind them to what she was doing. That's untrustworthy with a capital U. I like Mary, but I don't like THAT.

That's exactly why I think the BMoL is holding something over her.  Because no matter how much or how little we know about her, to me, it doesn't seem like something she would do--at least, not for a reward.  A threat, though, might work.  But what can they threaten her with?  She apparently doesn't care about dying herself--so IMO the only threat she *would* take seriously is to the people she cares about.  And right now, that pretty much means Sam, Dean and Cas.  

7 minutes ago, rue721 said:

A gun would kill her, it wouldn't necessarily send her to heaven.

I'm not sure if suicide is still considered a sin that would send her to hell.  But dying in a hunt (even if it was suicide-by-hunting) doesn't seem to preclude you from getting to heaven.  And since she was there before, there's no reason to think she wouldn't go back.  Besides, she knows the King of Hell (and his mother) and they have a soft spot for Winchesters.

12 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I can't see any evidence that she is feeling or acting protective toward them. I think that the only reason it's even coming up as something she MIGHT be feeling or acting on is because of preconceptions about how a "mom" would act or feel. Or maybe I'm forgetting something. YMMV.

Well, she was willing to kill  herself to make sure neither one of them died.  That seems pretty protective, especially if (as you pointed out) it wouldn't necessarily send her to heaven.  

[SueB]

7 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Well, she was willing to kill  herself to make sure neither one of them died.  That seems pretty protective, especially if (as you pointed out) it wouldn't necessarily send her to heaven.  

Precisely.  Zero hesitation. This says to me her protective instincts are firmly in place. Whether or not she does stereotypical mom behavior does not negate her protective instincts. "Mom" comes in all flavors.  And some Mom's don't ever develop those instincts.  Mary was not one of them.  But having protective instincts does not equate to staying home and making pie.  And I think she's smart enough to realize her boys are pretty BadAss hunters.  

To me, her biggest crime )as the boys will see it) was bringing in Wally -- to fool the boys.  And it got him killed.  Second is fooling the boys in the first place.  And it's only second because the boys have had a casual relationship with full transparency for YEARS before they finally realized that's the way to go.  

But I suspect the clip we saw is the ONLY part of "something is wrong with Mary" in this episode.  UNLESS -- and this is a real possibility -- Crowley (who they are going to see) -- says, something to the equivalent of 'so you just couldn't resist getting your hands on the Colt".  Seriously, Crowley knows the Colt is missing. Crowley knows those demon signs wouldn't have existed.  His demons would have been under strict orders to not attract attention.  So, if the events of last week come up -- I think Crowley could easily bust Mary unintentionally.  Or intentionally if he realizes she lied.  What would be interesting?  If he realizes she lied and he doesn't tell the boys.  I could see that set up.  He's got his knickers in a twist for being unappreciated.  He might want to see what Mary's game is IF he realizes she's lying before blurting out something about the Colt.  

But, more likely ... no reference to last weeks ep will be made to Crowley by the boys. 

[ILoveReading]

I don't think there is anything up with Mary, or its part of some long con.   I find the writers just don't put that kind of effort in anymore.  Pretty much what you see is what you get.  I think Mary just bought into the spiel about ending the monster threat.  She doesn't want to hunt, so if they end the threat she doesn't have too.  I think it really is as straight forward as that. 

The problem with Mary offering to sacrifice  herself is that it was followed up with Mary willing to risk her sons death rather than give up her mission.  She was even willing to let Cas die despite knowing how much it would hurt her sons.  She didn't care.  Its why her saying she almost lost one of her sons rang hollow  It makes me think the sacrifice was about a noble way to get back to heaven.   I doubt anything but Heaven would crossed Mary's mind.

Its too bad next week is going to be so Dean light (understandable with those little bundles of joy) but it sounds like it could be a great opportunity for just Sam, Mary and Dean on a hunt to actually show us Mary trying to form a personal connection.  With the Alpha Vamp back a great opportunity to mention something from Dean's past. 

I wonder how they're going to write Dean out.  Maybe he goes off to help Cas with something off screen.

[rue721]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

"Mom" comes in all flavors.  And some Mom's don't ever develop those instincts.  Mary was not one of them.  But having protective instincts does not equate to staying home and making pie.  And I think she's smart enough to realize her boys are pretty BadAss hunters.  

I'm not saying that Mary needs to be Suzy Homemaker. (In fact, I think it was a pretty big sacrifice on her part that she even tried to be Suzy Homemaker and give up hunting for a few years -- she might have said she didn't want to hunt anymore when she was a girl, but obviously nobody leaves this life).

I'm saying that she told Sam and Dean flat out that they shouldn't come in with preconceptions about who she is just because she's their mom. Fine, so I'm not going to assume that she's a protective Mama Bear just because she's their mama. (Which, fair enough. They're adults and aren't especially in need of protecting or even mothering). And without that assumption in place to color things, I don't think we've seen a whole lot of protectiveness from her at all.

I just *cannot* buy that she tricked and baited Sam, Dean, Cas, and Wally into joining her mission to get the Colt -- *knowing* that they would not want to be a part of it, *knowing* that they wanted no part of the BMOL (and for very valid reasons! the BMOL TORTURED Sam. And are just bad news all around) -- truly for "their own good."

I think that that's got to be for *Mary's* own good, regardless if she's trying to justify it in her own mind as for her sons or for the greater good or for whatever else somehow. You don't need to dupe people into acting in their own self-interest. You need to dupe them into acting *against* their own interests (and for yours, or for their enemies').

OTOH maybe you guys are right and she's trying to be super protective and I'm just not seeing it. I guess wanting to torture the vet to get info on Sam's whereabouts counts as protective (although that was before she'd even met adult!Sam). I guess wanting to shoot herself in the head right then and there in front of Billie counts (although she's a hunter, AND a Winchester, so of course she would be like "I'll die for this." They all always seem very willing to die for things!).

[Myrelle]

22 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Its too bad next week is going to be so Dean light (understandable with those little bundles of joy) but it sounds like it could be a great opportunity for just Sam, Mary and Dean on a hunt to actually show us Mary trying to form a personal connection.  With the Alpha Vamp back a great opportunity to mention something from Dean's past. 

I'm feeling the bitterness rising up already. They knew that this one might be Jensen-lite and they decide to go forward with both of these things anyway? Yeah, I wasn't feeling it in the least for Dabb's showrunning last season(it's my belief that he took over de facto right after the Premiere), but I've prepared myself.

That's all from me, though, as I wouldn't want to spoil anything for anyone in the bitterness thread(and I've never been very adept at spoiler tagging, what with being a spoiler fiend all of my life in almost every way. I'd  rather know what I'm getting for Christmas and my birthday and I even look ahead when I read books. ;-) )

[Diane]

[Aeryn13]

He likes the Family Ties theme song then?

Who`s gonna sing "It`s like I started breathing on the night we kissed", Crowley? Rowena? Gavin? O la la. 

Edited February 23, 2017 by Aeryn13

[rue721]

Wait wait @SueB, @ahrtee, @ anyone else who is discussing Mary here -- would it be OK if we bring the conversation over to Mary's thread? I feel like we have discussions going on about Mary in three different threads right now (this one, the episode thread, and the UO thread), and it's getting kind of confusing (lol).

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 hours ago, rue721 said:

OTOH maybe you guys are right and she's trying to be super protective and I'm just not seeing it. I guess wanting to torture the vet to get info on Sam's whereabouts counts as protective (although that was before she'd even met adult!Sam).

 

Well then - taken to the Mary thread per request.  ;)

[catrox14]

I  have a question.

When is Johns journal? Is Mary still in  possession of it  or did she give it back to the boys? It makes me nervous to think that might fall into the hands of BMoL.

[DittyDotDot]

As far as I know, Mary still has it. But, you never know, she could've returned it off screen. It's been known to happen.

[ahrtee]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I  have a question.

When is Johns journal? Is Mary still in  possession of it  or did she give it back to the boys? It makes me nervous to think that might fall into the hands of BMoL.

She was reading it in the bunker in First Blood.  I don't think we've seen it since then.  

[Wayward Son]

According to the wikia it was last seen in the bunker in First Blood. Mary was reading through it while the boys were missing. Whether it was left there or she took it with her again who knows. 

Edit: or what @ahrtee said lol. 

Edited February 23, 2017 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, ahrtee said:

She was reading it in the bunker in First Blood.  I don't think we've seen it since then.  

Thanks. I sure hope she has that on lock down. I can see th BMoL wanting to know where all of Johns storage lockers are all the hunters  he's ever worked with that might be alive.

[ahrtee]

This forum is like Jeopardy.  You've got to be fast on the keyboard to get an answer in first!

[goldy]

[ahrtee]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Thanks. I sure hope she has that on lock down. I can see th BMoL wanting to know where all of Johns storage lockers are all the hunters  he's ever worked with that might be alive.

I know John had contact info on a lot of hunters (though those are now way out of date, considering a hunter's expiration dates) but I don't think he had his storage locker info in there.  Sam and Dean were surprised to find he even *had* a storage locker until that one called to say it had been broken into.  (I think that's where they picked up the card Dean showed Bobby in 5.1).  Did we ever see them find any other storage places?   

As a side note, since I watch Storage Wars:  can you imagine someone buying one of John's "abandoned storage units" and trying to figure out what the heck all that stuff is?

[ILoveReading]

6 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

 

As a side note, since I watch Storage Wars:  can you imagine someone buying one of John's "abandoned storage units" and trying to figure out what the heck all that stuff is?

This needs to be an episode

[catrox14]

23 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

considering a hunter's expiration dates) but I don't think he had his storage locker info in there.  Sam and Dean were surprised to find he even *had* a storage locker until that one called to say it had been broken into.  (I think that's where they picked up the card Dean showed Bobby in 5.1).  Did we ever see them find any other

John had codes in his journal because Dean used them in First Born to find the info on Tara.