S02.E12: Paradise Lost

[sinkwriter]

 

I just didn't like the special effects of the wings and the flying.

 

The special effects were terrible! Especially his first appearance. It was obvious he was on some sort of track and harness and they slid him back and forth on it. It was not a smooth "flight." It was like they weren't even trying to make it look real. 

[cassandle]

I'm a little late to the discussion because Monday night I decided watching Battlestar Galactica (1978) on Netflix was a better use of my time than watching Sleepy Hollow.  I just couldn't bring myself to care.  And now that I've watched it...meh.

 

I liked kickass Abbie because, how could you not?  I liked Orion purely for the fact that he wholeheartedly wanted to kill Katrina.  Dick angel or not, that's the kind of thinking I can get behind.  But the CFD...no.  I've gotten to the point where I'm hate-watching 90% of the show and grudgingly enjoying the other 10%.

 

The color of Orion's wings didn't bother me. I just didn't like the special effects of the wings and the flying. Seeing it made me appreciate how Supernatural handled Castiel and the other angels. They worked within tv budget constraints by using the suggestion of wings in shadows and ashes and it looked a lot better and was more interesting than what we got here.

 

I agree.  The first thing I did when I saw his wings was laugh out loud and say, "Supernatural did it better."  Orion's tiny wings looked silly--like a Halloween costume--whereas Castiel's massive shadow wings looked intimidating even on a dude in a tie and trench coat.  That being said, I liked the angel idea and the actor and agree with the others who think his true intentions were revealed too quickly.  I would have liked him to hang around appreciating Abbie and trying to kill Katrina for a while longer before he went bad.

 

 

[saber5055]

 

It would be nice if at least one show out there in the universe strayed from convention and stereotype (and potentially racist presentation) and allowed for the good guy to be wearing the black wings. Let's try to step outside the box a little, showrunners!

Thanks for the laugh!

[possibilities]

I don't want to see Abbie (or anyone) hooking up with a supernatural creature. I like her as a human, and I want to see her being loved the way she deserves, by humans.

 

Upthread, someone was saying that Icabod's first thing when he came to at the beginning of the episode was to shout for Katrina, but I actually liked that his first thing was to look for Abbie. He looked for, found, and made sure Abbie was okay before he looked for Katrina at all.

 

They could have portrayed Orion's clothing and his wings in any color they wanted, all white, pale blue, rainbow technicolor, silver, gold, pink and red for love, etc. I don't think it's an accident they chose black, and it does bother me.

 

Whenever they show Abbie's family dynamic, it's interesting and moving and full of empowerment and healing. Episodes that focus on her and Jenny, or them and their mom, or even Abbie with her mentors, like Corbin and Irving, have always been deep and worthwhile. It makes the Crane whinefest all the more galling, because I like character-based stories, but they systematically inject all the most annoying and stagnant possibilities when they do it with the Cranes.

[placate]

Orion: Warrior Angel.  I guess the title doesn't apply now since his chakram got shattered :(

[catrox14]

Well I finally watched this episode and it was better for more Ichabbie interaction , but jeebus Ichabod is simultaneously getting dumber about Katrina yet seems to mistrust her even more. How the hell does that work?

I am too spoiled by the way angels were/are repped on Supernatural to find Orion remotely interesting. Thanks writers for thinking your audience is too dumb to remember Orions mission after he told us the first time mere minutes before repeating it. Sigh.... Also. That actor was. Not very good IMO.

I swear to Gods, Ichabod finding Abbie first and then saying her name instead of leftenant gave me life. IMO he had more passion in that moment than the hug with Katrina

I did not appreciate Hawley mansplaining the rock to Jenny and her accidentally giving him the solution because he got angry because he just told her he likes her still.

I guess I'll tune in next week to see what happens to zombie Irving

P. S. Fuck off Katrina. You are not cool, you are not special. You are an impediment to everything Ichabbie needs to do. Headless deserves better than Katrina. There I've said it.

[savinggrace]

I did not appreciate Hawley mansplaining the rock to Jenny and her accidentally giving him the solution because he got angry because he just told her he likes her still.

 

 

I didn't think Hawley was mansplaining. One thing the show has done well with his character is establish both his enthusiasm for his artifacts and his knowledge of folkore. From his first episode he's been pretty good at knowing the background and tales surrounding the artifacts he discovers. In the Pied Piper episode he was the one who knew about the Lancaster curse. Plus we've seen him in the library doing research. I know people think he's a duplicate of Jenny but I never got the sense Jenny was an expert. She only mentioned that Corbin sent her to retrieve artifacts so I took it that Corbin was the actual expert. I'm guessing Jenny got a lot of her artifacts from Hawley in between rounds in the sheets.

 

Random but Orion's outfit reminded me of the warrior gear worn on the History Channel's Vikings. He and Ragnar could share a wardrobe.

Edited January 8, 2015 by savinggrace

[jhlipton]

I liked the ep, if only for the "What if the Apocolypse is over?" conversation.  It was worth all the Struffle!Witch scenes to see Ich and Abbie talking like long-time friends again.  
 
I'm going to assume that all the scenes where Hawley was hot for Abbie didn't happen, and he's always just been hot for Jenny.  Gets rid of the sisters-ich problem.
 
Much, much better than I was expecting -- I've never been so happy to have TPTB mislead me (of course it is early in the half-season...)

ETA:

Yeah, he could have said no - but we don't know fully what he said YES to. Evil tricks people all of the time. And Abe's been on an angry rampage ever since. I would be. Problem is we just don't know, unfortunately.

Much like Frank signing the contract with Henry. He was tricked, just like Henry might have been tricked.

Edited January 8, 2015 by jhlipton

[Snookums]

I just didn't like the special effects of the wings and the flying.

 

 

Such obvious wire work. I felt bad for the actor, that had to be uncomfortable.

[RiddleyWalker]

Haven't posted in awhile here and just got a chance to watch "Paradise Lost."  

 

Quick thoughts here…..

 

Overall, I was pleasantly surprised. I really liked the character, Orion, and thought he had a lot of charisma. Whenever he was on-screen I was fixated. I think there are a lot of possibilities with his character and this was definitely a step in the right direction regardless of angels on other shows, wires etc. I'm ambivalent about his "zealousness" being revealed so soon. A long drawn out process of revealing this could make the leads appear stupid but I would like to see a powerful ally work with the Team at some point. (Hawley doesn't quality as a powerful ally, I'm afraid.)  I really loved that he wants to kill "the witch." I'm hoping that Abbie uses that key-ring thingy to call him back at a critical time and off Katrina! Anyway, I don't think we've seen the last of Orion one way or another and perhaps his zealotry can be channeled in a constructive way.

 

The Abraham/Katrina bit was, again, just... annoying. I'm just tired and fed up with her---though her wig looked like it was on its best behavior--perhaps it's just out of rehab? I can't wait until mopey Abraham is off the show as well and badass Headless is back, no matter who controls him.

 

I didn't mind the Jenny/Hawley bit (and am willing to forget Hawley's previous infatuation with Abbie) even if it was a C plot and in response to fan outrage.

 

I love Zombie Irving! Oh man! Lots can be done with that... Will his flesh start falling off? What will his wife say? Is he really a zombie and can it be reversed? (I suspect Henry will come into play is this bit.)

 

ETA: Just saw that Andre Crouch passed away. I haven't listened to to him for years but his music meant much to me. "Soon and very soon we are going to see the King."

 

Amen, brother, you're seeing Him now!

 

What a great talent…he will be missed (at least by me)

Edited January 9, 2015 by RiddleyWalker

[TV Juriste]

I made a comment earlier that Crane's being all 18th century thinking, but he's really not that far off from relateively recent modern day thinking. Wasn't it in the 40s and 50s and even 60s, where woman were encouraged to go to University, to earn their MRS.

 

And even now, god forbid a woman have a kid and the father becomes the stay-at-home daddy, while the wife goes back to work. Some men today have major issues with it, since they should be the breadwinners. It's where the paygaps originated from. A man has to provide for his family (wife, kids) therefore needs more pay. A woman has a husband to suppliment, so doesn't deserve more pay. Hell, just look at the political drama in the US - we are still not so far removed from Crane's way of thinking. The only difference is that there is a choice. Some woman choose that life, other woman today respond like Abbie would, because they want to pursue other opportunities and have the option to do so. However, shows like the Real HouseWives series and those Duggar's speak otherwise. Sadly, I have to use the words SOME woman, because many still feel that marriage and snagging a man should be the first and foremost goal in a woman's life, and anything else is a waste of time (hello mom).

 

As for Abraham, it's funny how sometimes one has a thought in their mind of how they see things going, but forgets to articulate it. For Abraham, I guess I see it as he doesn't return to being a full human. His soul, his essense is separated from the Horseman's physical shell, his soul them moves on, and another soul occupies the body shell, headless and all. That's for some reason how I see it, so by redeeming Abraham, you are releasing his soul from the body itself.

 

Of course we saw that they physically transformed Abraham's body into Headless (though Abraham is smaller than Headless) so maybe it's pulling the spirit or soul of Death/Evil from the body. However, now I have to go to the Spoilers thread, because of the term they keep using - Avatar of Death.

Abraham said he would go along with Katrina's plan if she could return him to his human form. I'd have no problem with a "may your soul rest in peace and stop murdering people" type of thing. Well, as long as we get to keep the avatar. I absolutely think it's nuts to have a storyline about Karina returning him to human form, but those are the words they used. (Which means not all that much because as we've all noticed they change the ground rules a lot).

[phoenics]

Question:

If they get rid of the whole Revelations Apocalypse thing and the four Horsemen and all of that - then do we also lose the whole George Washington thing and all of that history connected to Ichabod? Or are we now doomed to only get personal connections that relate only to Ichabod/Katrina and that don't have a whole twistory thing attached to them anymore?

That's just ... tragic.

And - are we only going to get to see the Kindred again to take its head? That's just so wrong.

I don't understand why they dropped all of that - I keep hoping that they are pulling our leg - but I just don't see it. The show runner (Goffman) admitted that the writers felt stifled by the whole Revelations/Apocalypse thing... they might as well have said, "We feel stifled by this Sleepy Hollow concept - can we just write about green eggs and ham?"

Ugh.

[DeLurker]

Dr. Seuss wrote with insane amounts of creativity in a form that requires brevity and cadence. Green Eggs and Ham is way way above what they could even dream of achieving.

Although fortune cookie writing might be within their grasp.

[RiddleyWalker]

Yeah, I think the show is re-imaginging itself and nothing is sacred at this point. I think everything is in flux until the end of the season and I hope by then they'll develop some "rules" as TV Juriste put it. We need to have some "Rules" to know if someone's dead dead or just "mostly dead".  Who do we need to grieve for?  (I didn't for Irving as I knew he wasn't "dead, dead.")

 

Anyway, I am not expecting any great changes until the end of the season though I'll continue to watch...

Edited January 9, 2015 by RiddleyWalker

[savinggrace]

The crazy eyes made it hard to tell but was Orion amused or annoyed by Abbie's 21 Questons about God and our existence?

[saber5055]

I'd say annoyed, savinggrace. I know it annoyed me.

Abraham said he would go along with Katrina's plan if she could return him to his human form. I'd have no problem with a "may your soul rest in peace and stop murdering people" type of thing. Well, as long as we get to keep the avatar. I absolutely think it's nuts to have a storyline about Karina returning him to human form, but those are the words they used. (Which means not all that much because as we've all noticed they change the ground rules a lot).

This would irritate the heck out of me since Katrina was completely worthless saving Irving.

[FormerMod-a1]

I don't know how the headless/reheading thing would work either.  I know this is a show with magic and supernatural stuff so they could make something up, I'm sure.  I just don't know how satisfying it would be.  Although, I do like the idea of Katrina not doing it right, just like everything else she tries from saving Ichabod to protection spells to sneaking around on Henry and Abraham and them knowing exactly what she's doing (not a good sneak, that one).  He could be separated without his head and die for real and in a fit of anger haunt Katrina until she dies.  Or maybe Katrina could become Death.  Or maybe it makes Abraham the new Moloch somehow.  

 

In other news, I am glad they brought up the whole "Witnesses aren't supposed to fight the Apocalypse" thing, even if only fleetingly.

[Yolapukka]

 

Although, I do like the idea of Katrina not doing it right, just like everything else she tries from saving Ichabod to protection spells to sneaking around on Henry and Abraham and them knowing exactly what she's doing

 

 I like the idea of trying to save Abraham and it backfiring on the not-so-powerful witch. It may be an accident rather than an intention of writing, but she has a strong history of being a screw-up. I also don't think separating Abraham from the Avatar of death would necessarily have to stop the horseman, just put an end to this particular version of it. It would be a neat trick if it was immediately drawn to another person, this one with more wrathful motivations than being betrayed by his bestie and dumped by his girl. Just as long as it's not another person the wig-stand would feel compelled to save.

[Sepia]

I'd say annoyed, savinggrace. I know it annoyed me.

Really? I thought it was quite enjoyable, especially the dinosaur question at the end, lol.

 

 

In other news, I am glad they brought up the whole "Witnesses aren't supposed to fight the Apocalypse" thing, even if only fleetingly.

One of the inconsistencies in the storyline that I don't understand, because in S1 it was stated that the witnesses were supposed to be fighting the forces of evil.

[cassandle]

 I like the idea of trying to save Abraham and it backfiring on the not-so-powerful witch.

 

I'd laugh it if her bringing him back to his human form meant he'd immediately die from the musket wound he should have died from in the first place.  

[topanga]

 

The Sneaky Passive Aggressive Award goes to: Abbie Mills, for being so sick of the Crane drama, that she didn’t even offer to put Katrina up in her own house, instead letting Ichabod himself be stuck sleeping in the Archives. She didn’t even offer to let Crane stay with her and Jenny, though if this was even hinted on, certain people would lose their minds.

 

Hmm. I might've enjoyed this scenario.

 

This was driving me insane!  I loved Abbie calling out that Abraham/Headless murdered her father-figure right in front of her.  In my head-canon, she also said this:  "Katrina, I know you know who Corbin was because you are surrounded by pictures of him on a regular basis.  However, since you seem to value your own redemption via Abraham more than you do the lives of Corbin and the others who were murdered by the Horseman (including your friend, Rev. Knapp), kindly change into your hospital clothes and get the hell up out of Corbin's house.  Also, please leave all the crap you bought at Hot Topic with my credit card; I wouldn't be caught dead wearing it, but I'm sure there's a tween Goth who would love it.  Now, scram!"

Hilarious, netlyon2.

[phoenics]

The crazy eyes made it hard to tell but was Orion amused or annoyed by Abbie's 21 Questons about God and our existence?

The sexy smirk he gave her read "amused" to me... and I agree - the yellow contacts made that really hard to see - I found myself wishing they hadn't done that with Orion.

Although toward the end when she asked about dinosaurs, I thought he looked slightly exasperated.

[Limelight]

So that scene where Katrina was shady-side-eye-watching Abbie and Crane discuss Orion was ONLY about her telegraphing that Orion might be bad?Her expression just looked so much more shady... because didn't that happen AFTER she'd already let the Horseman go? Abbie and Ichabod were discussing how to find Headless and making a plan to find him...And Katrina looked just like she looks in the opening credits. Like SHE was hiding something.

I really was hoping that Orion knew her in purgatory. Didn't he mention that they were there at the same time?

She looked like she knew he could blow the lid on her whole "good witch" act. I was hoping that was why Katrina was looking so nervous and almost hiding her face.

Also when Orion did talk to her, she seemed anxious, backing away from him like she was frightened. It's like the director was trying to add something to the story that just wasn't there but should have been if the writers had any imagination or sense at all.

[theatremouse]

I'd laugh it if her bringing him back to his human form meant he'd immediately die from the musket wound he should have died from in the first place.  

I'm actually very much hoping this is exactly what happens.

[johntfs]

Forgot to mention this earlier. Laughed at the fact that in the Mason cell, there were four large industrial lights mounted above Abraham, but the perimeter of the room was filled with glowing candles. Beautiful for filming and ambiance, but the blatant fire hazard made me chuckle.

 

The big lights were for UV light to weaken Abraham.  The candles were for the mystical rituals to keep him contained.

[Nanrad]

StruggleWitch-lol

 

TBH, I don't think Katrina was right because her reasons for wanting to save Abraham was selfish. For her, it was about redemption and wanting to forgive herself for Abraham becoming Headless. If he died, she'd still feel responsible. It had nothing to do with right or wrong or even trying to save the world. Katrina didn't change her mind because Katrina was right, but rather, Orion's zealous nature. If Orion had just been open to not burning the world and being the one to cast judgment and just gave one good reason to kill Headless, Abbie would've stood by him. She turned against Orion because he didn't mind killing innocent lives.

 

I live for Nicole's facial expression--she is NOT here for Katrina at all. 

 

I don't know what's going on with the writers, but Moloch was killed too early. Orion should've been a more complex character who appeared in a few episodes before Headless vs. Orion fight. 

 

Katrina's is said to be a powerful witch, but she is by far the weakest link for the Witnesses due to her compassionate nature. She wants to redeem Henry and Abraham who have done she evil, fucked up shit all because of blood and a guilty conscience. There is a case to be made for Abraham, but the way she goes about defending him is counterproductive to Abbie and Crane's mission. With Henry, it doesn't matter if he's their child, his mind was already made up and he chose to do terrible shit to them and others and she wants to continuously bring up how he's their child? Katrina naively wants to believe that love cures everything because she can't comprehend the nature of evil and that, sometimes, people do fucked up shit or make fucked up decisions because they want to. 

 

The Sneaky Passive Aggressive Award goes to: Abbie Mills, for being so sick of the Crane drama, that she didn’t even offer to put Katrina up in her own house, instead letting Ichabod himself be stuck sleeping in the Archives. She didn’t even offer to let Crane stay with her and Jenny, though if this was even hinted on, certain people would lose their minds. Good girl. Speaking of the witch…

 

The Warden Award goes to: Moloch, who apparently was very active 200 years ago, imprisoning Katrina, Orion and probably many others in Purgatory. What happened 200+ years ago for all of this to happen.

 

 

1. I never thought about it like that, but Abbie probably thought it over and decided against it because she had to deal with enough of their drama as it is.

2. I don't know why, but this just makes me laugh: Moloch very active and just imprisoning powerful people--keeping a watchful eye. Apparently, he lost some pep in his stomach.

 

ETA: Max Brown is very sex. :-D Those contacts and his brooding/shifty nature did it for me.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Nanrad

[HalcyonDays]

The big lights were for UV light to weaken Abraham.  The candles were for the mystical rituals to keep him contained.

 

Good explanation. I like it and makes sense. But does that mean that if the candles get accidently blown out (say from a gust of wind), Katrina can't do any magic anymore? (that's nothing new and not surprising). Or that the magical spells already cast become ineffective? (which would suck)

[netlyon2]

Good explanation. I like it and makes sense. But does that mean that if the candles get accidently blown out (say from a gust of wind), Katrina can't do any magic anymore? (that's nothing new and not surprising). Or that the magical spells already cast become ineffective? (which would suck)

Wait, Katrina can do magic?  ;-P

 

Seriously, though, I think there are multiple layers of hex-protection on the cell, so if the candles went out it wouldn't affect the whole setup.  The UV lights are also added security.  That's why Moloch had to have the Hessians blow the power grid before inside-man Andy broke the protective hexes in "Necromancer."  All in all, good design by TJ and good implementation by Team Witness (well, the one who wasn't busy having a measuring contest with the Horseman, anyway).

 

Aw, now I miss Andy and the Hessians all over again.  Good times, *sniff*

[savinggrace]

Orion's character could have been a great opportunity to open up the world of Sleepy Hollow and involve the town's inhabitants. Imagine news reports of an angel winging it around town. He could easily have his own cult in a day, tops by rounding up true "believers." Orion and his followers could have presented an interesting obstacle to Ichabbie.To date their foes have always been very obvious supernatural villains. Imagine them having to contend with fanatical Orionites sabotaging their mission and creating havoc in the town.

Aw, now I miss Andy and the Hessians all over again.  Good times, *sniff*

 

 

Wasn't Headless originally an evil Hessian soldier before they retconned him into Katrina's jilted lover?

[Yolapukka]

 

Orion's character could have been a great opportunity to open up the world of Sleepy Hollow and involve the town's inhabitants. Imagine news reports of an angel winging it around town. He could easily have his own cult in a day, tops by rounding up true "believers." Orion and his followers could have presented an interesting obstacle to Ichabbie.To date their foes have always been very obvious supernatural villains. Imagine them having to contend with fanatical Orionites sabotaging their mission and creating havoc in the town.

 

They could still do a version of this. I would like to see it.

[johntfs]

Abraham's chamber was in am underground chamber.  It's not all that windy underground.

 

Meanwhile, I've always found that Crane Family Drama is hilarious.

 

[DearEvette]

Seriously, though, I think there are multiple layers of hex-protection on the cell, so if the candles went out it wouldn't affect the whole setup.  The UV lights are also added security.  That's why Moloch had to have the Hessians blow the power grid before inside-man Andy broke the protective hexes in "Necromancer."  All in all, good design by TJ and good implementation by Team Witness (well, the one who wasn't busy having a measuring contest with the Horseman, anyway).

 

Aw, now I miss Andy and the Hessians all over again.  Good times, *sniff*

 

Ok, see I knew I wasn't imagining things.  Very early in the episode, Abbie says something skeptical about Katrina (shade!) and then Ichabod says something like 'Katrina's magic is what is holding Abraham prisoner.'  But I am all....whaaa?  No!  The cell was designed already by Thomas Jefferson and the Masons (cool name for a hipster indie rock band, btw) to hold the Horseman.  He was being held just fine last year without Katrina's "magic."  (her "magic" always requires quote-fingers as far as I am concerned).

 

And yes, who knew I'd be missing the Hessians?  Remember that awesomely scary one who intoned "Grace Abigail Mills' at Abbie all malevolently before biting down on a cyanide pill or something.  Good Times, indeed.  *sniff* 

Edited January 12, 2015 by DearEvette

[HalcyonDays]

Ok, see I knew I wasn't imagining things.  Very early in the episode, Abbie says something skeptical about Katrina (shade!) and then Ichabod says something like 'Katrina's magic is what is holding Abraham prisoner.'  But I am all....whaaa?  No!  The cell was designed already by Thomas Jefferson and the Masons (cool name for a hipster indie rock band, btw) to hold the Horseman.  He was being held just fine last year without Katrina's "magic."  (her "magic" always requires quote-fingers as far as I am concerned).

 

And yes, who knew I'd be missing the Hessians?  Remember that awesomely scary one who intoned "Grace Abigail Mills' at Abbie all malevolently before biting down on a cyanide pill or something.  Good Times, indeed.  *sniff* 

 

That's why everyone thinks Ichabod is under some spell by Katrina. Because the stuff he says in season 2 makes him seem absolutely delusional. Remember, this is the guy that got Abbie to give up her Quantico dreams.

 

Again, why the show needs a bible or basic rules. Because once again, in order to prop up Katrina, the writers claim its Katrina's magic that holds Abe, but it's really not. It was the Masons. Which if you remember, Ichabod was bragging about how Jefferson designed the all powerful cell. Now, apparently it's all Katrina. Yeah right.

 

Here is another annoying thing with the writers insistance on telling, not actually showing. They want us to believe that she's a powerful witch, right? So have Katrina flick her hand or mumble something, and show the chains holding Abe all dramatically breaking off or releasing themselves from his body. How cool would that be? Then we can see she has some power. Instead, she can only really play with powders.

 

Actually, I will be positive about Katrina for once - I did actually really like the scene of her chanting the spell and securing the cell. Loved her pronunciation of the latin or whatever words. It sounded really cool.

 

I did wonder though, WHY the words were something like "keep eyes from seeing" or "hide this from prying eyes" or something. I intrepreted it as she wanted anyone OUTSIDE the Mason cell to not know what was inside (hence allowing her to have privacy with Abraham). I didn't think it was preventing Abe from getting out of the cell.

[catrox14]

Oh wow. Talk about propping a character at another character's expense. Good gods.

 

 

Actually, I will be positive about Katrina for once - I did actually really like the scene of her chanting the spell and securing the cell. Loved her pronunciation of the latin or whatever words. It sounded really cool.

 

It was alright. But then I'm totally spoiled on The Winchesters specifically Sam Winchester /Jared Padalecki doing the best Latinating: TV Category, I've ever heard.

Edited January 12, 2015 by catrox14

[cynic]

Ok, see I knew I wasn't imagining things. Very early in the episode, Abbie says something skeptical about Katrina (shade!) and then Ichabod says something like 'Katrina's magic is what is holding Abraham prisoner.' But I am all....whaaa? No! The cell was designed already by Thomas Jefferson and the Masons (cool name for a hipster indie rock band, btw) to hold the Horseman. He was being held just fine last year without Katrina's "magic." (her "magic" always requires quote-fingers as far as I am concerned)...

*

Ha! You guys are so on top of these things. Good catch!

[BrokenRemote]

This episode was definitely better.  

 

I did get annoyed that Jenny--formerly a globe-searching expert on supernatural artifacts--was all like 'Did you bring the Egg of Haggis, or whatever it's called?  Teeheehee', with Hawley correcting her on the name with his superior man-knowledge.  Yes he didn't know how the egg worked, but neither did she.  I don't get why he's being pushed forward as the expert, with the writers even going so far as to make Jenny specifically look less knowledgeable than him, when we already had an expert on the subject.  She's all dolled up in a mini skirt chasing a man, with her love life being the main focus of her appearance.  I miss the Jenny who was the go-to for artifacts and information about these things.

Edited January 13, 2015 by BrokenRemote

[BrokenRemote]

Abbie was insulted when Crane said she should get married. Abbie's not the type to need the affirmation of a man to be a complete person, which is one reason I love the character. She's a bad ass PERSON. Not every woman needs a man to make her life fulfilled.

Exactly! I don't understand why Abbie has to get a man. She's been such a refreshing character, so different from so many other shows. She's strong, she's smart, she's independent. It would be so nice to have a female main character that didn't have to have a man to be complete.

[kimberella]

I don't understand why Abbie has to get a man. She's been such a refreshing character, so different from so many other shows. She's strong, she's smart, she's independent.

That's not refreshing for black female characters at all. Why does Katrina have to have not one, but several men after her? Why can't she be the strong independent woman that needs no man? That would be refreshing! Why can't she just be friends with the men in the show? No, the role of loveless lady goes to the black woman, as always, because this is not a truly diverse show. It's not about breaking cliches and because they, Goffman and his team, are not here for Abbie and they never will.

 

It looks like other shows are waking up and treating their black/POC leads as real human beings, who deserve to have all sides of their lives explored though. Sleepy Hollow is not one of them. Their "diversity" is just window dressing.

[DeLurker]

 

It looks like other shows are waking up and treating their black/POC leads as real human beings, who deserve to have all sides of their lives explored though. Sleepy Hollow is not one of them. Their "diversity" is just window dressing.

I don't think we have a specific thread here to address diversity issues, so I'll just respond here.  SH was one of them in S1 and making things all the more frustrating, it did not seem the result of a conscious effort to be "diverse".  It felt like great casting and an interesting (albeit ludicrous) storyline, that they made work with a blend of drama, history twisting, suspense, dose of humor and a touch of absurd.  The shift in the show's focus has made "diversity" a punch list which they make lame ass efforts (and it shows) to fulfill.

[BrokenRemote]

I agree 100% that they had an effortless-seeming diversity in season 1 that they'd lost in season 2. It's so sad because it was so awesome. I guess I should expound on my comment by saying I would be happy if no main character of any color or gender had to have a romance. I can watch a soap for that. It's not what I watch this show for.

If there were no Katrina (please let it happen), therefore no white women getting all the men, then would it be ok for Abbie not to have a man? I get what's being said and yes, we don't have enough Women of Color on TV that get to be vulnerable and lovable and chased by men. I happen to see Abbie as vulnerable and lovable, and if she mentioned a date she had now and again I'd be ok, but I get ruffled when a single woman has to have a man to validate her to the audience.

But we each watch for different reasons and just once I'd like to watch an adventure/supernatural/fantasy type show where the main characters didn't have to hook up with someone.

Edited January 16, 2015 by BrokenRemote

[Quadmom2005]

I'm not sure what pissed me off about this ep the most. Well, ya I am; Katrina's pointless ass. But that mess with the Hawley retcon is up there too considering this man had ZERO interest in her when last we saw them AND was all about her sister the first half of the season. I get it- tptb realize they fucked season 2 up beyond recognition, but this mess ain't the way to fix it.

[BrokenRemote]

They could have made it work with a little subtlety, but why do that when they can smush it in over the course of 5 minutes?

Imagine, they add a scene this week where Hawley sees Jenny flirting and has a quiet a-ha moment ( to himself) where we see he's surprised to find he's jealous. Then a week or two later he says or does something small that surprises her, and so on. We know the actor can pull it off--as much as I dislike the character, the actor gets props for the way he telegraphed interest in Abbie without a word. They could even do it in (well-written) added on scenes, in a way that felt real (thought he might be attracted to Abbie, realized it was more about enjoying the adventures she took him along on and that he wasn't over Jenny after all...). Good writers and good actors could pull it off. Sadly we only have the latter at the moment.

[savinggrace]

They could have made it work with a little subtlety, but why do that when they can smush it in over the course of 5 minutes?

Imagine, they add a scene this week where Hawley sees Jenny flirting and has a quiet a-ha moment ( to himself) where we see he's surprised to find he's jealous. Then a week or two later he says or does something small that surprises her, and so on. We know the actor can pull it off--as much as I dislike the character, the actor gets props for the way he telegraphed interest in Abbie without a word. They could even do it in (well-written) added on scenes, in a way that felt real (thought he might be attracted to Abbie, realized it was more about enjoying the adventures she took him along on and that he wasn't over Jenny after all...). Good writers and good actors could pull it off. Sadly we only have the latter at the moment.

 

The way they handled Hawley's character is such a hack job and is just plain lazy. They don't want to take the time to "show" so they throw in a couple of lines to "tell". It's just like how they have Abbie and Crane utter ridiculous lines about how "powerful" and "helpful" Katrina is to their cause so the writers don't have to actually show Katrina being either of those things.

[Indi]

I'm not sure what pissed me off about this ep the most. Well, ya I am; Katrina's pointless ass. But that mess with the Hawley retcon is up there too considering this man had ZERO interest in her when last we saw them AND was all about her sister the first half of the season. I get it- tptb realize they fucked season 2 up beyond recognition, but this mess ain't the way to fix it.

 

If they wanted to fix the mess they did with Hawley, they could have dropped the romantic angle entirely, because there is no way this sudden "Jenny is the One!" realization could ever come as not gross or creepy. Just let him be of help, even flirty if he must, but drop any serious intent to hook up with either sister. Even the actor didn't put the same emotion with Jenny, as he did with Abbie, in spite of his "realization". The words were there, but the way he looked at Jenny didn't come close to how he gazed at Abbie, so the impression I got was that he was jumping back to Jenny, when it became clear to him Abbie was far from interested.

[savinggrace]

I really hope since Jenny totally shut him down, that they go away from this story line for a while. Because that was just weird and made Hawley schizo and creepy.

 

I think it made Jenny look equally weird because she was the one throwing herself at him and coming across jealous in earlier episodes.Once again, no fault of the actress, but really bad writing.

[Yolapukka]

To me, it would have gone a long way to making the Jenny/ Hawley scenes less unnatural if they'd had him acknowledge that he'd been drawn to Abbie and then discount it  as being inconsequential. It probably would have brought about some eye-roll worthy lines about eeeeeeeemoooooshuns, but they needed to acknowledge what they had been writing for him previously. It might still be odd but at least not ridiculously abrupt that he's suddenly all about Jenny.

[FormerMod-a1]

Well, it's been like 6 weeks since the last episode.  heh.  I have no problem forgetting a stray look or two form Hawley to Abbie.  Little things like that are dropped all the time in tv shows, hoping no one will remember.  I can pretend it never happened.

[jhlipton]

Well, it's been like 6 weeks since the last episode.  heh.  I have no problem forgetting a stray look or two form Hawley to Abbie.  Little things like that are dropped all the time in tv shows, hoping no one will remember.  I can pretend it never happened.

 

That's my attitude as well.  We're never going to get subtlety from these writers (even though Benarie and Greenwood can sell it), so best to just forget the Abbie-lust.

[savinggrace]

Well, it's been like 6 weeks since the last episode.  heh.  I have no problem forgetting a stray look or two form Hawley to Abbie.  Little things like that are dropped all the time in tv shows, hoping no one will remember.  I can pretend it never happened.

 

The problem is that Hawley's intentions were broadcast beyond stray looks. They had a monster-of-the week episode for which the entire purpose seemed to be bringing Hawley's affection for Abbie to light. They had Ichabod acting jealous or paternal (depending on your view) about a potential Hawley/Abbie union.  On top of that Ichabod gave Abbie his "blessing" to date Hawley. They can't just pretend major character moments like that didn't happen. As someone else said they could have had Hawley acknowledge he had a crush and that he was over it so viewers who aren't privy to the writer's storyboard changes aren't watching the show going "WTF" and thinking they may have missed an episode or two.

[FormerMod-a1]

I didn't see those moments the same way, so yeah, I can ignore it.  I'm not saying others have to, just that to me it's not a big deal.  Whole characters have disappeared w/o a word on other shows (Family Matters) and I think that's a much bigger deal.  And many viewers got over it.  And so what if Hawley was momentarily attracted to Abbie - she's smart, confident, good looking, etc.  He wasn't in a relationship. It's not sin to notice someone is attractive, even if it's the sister of someone you once dated.   NOTHING actually happened between them (Hawley and Abbie), at all.   And also a big so what to Ichabod giving his blessing to Abbie.  What does that have to do with Hawley's feelings at all?  Or even Abbie's?  Just because someone tells me I should or could date someone doesn't mean I even want to.   Again, to me these were throw away lines or scenes and not major plot points.  They were filler.  Easy to overlook and move on.  Again, I'm not saying others have to or should feel the same way, I'm just saying why I feel this way.