Spoiler Discussion: The apple was poisoned?!

[Souris]

We suspect that...but I don't think they do.  I think they're both a little unsure of the other's feelings for them, and I think Emma is unsure of her feelings for Hook (or at least unwilling to admit their depth).  So I think they do still need to have a full blown TLK, where they have to acknowledge that it happened. 

 

I also think that most of the viewing audience didn't rewind that seend and watch endless gifs of it trying to decipher if there was a TLK ring there.  So I think the casual viewer does not thing they've had any sort of TLK.

 

Given the way this show works, I think they still need a definitive TLK. Snowing had a failed TLK and a CPR kiss as well as the classic TLK, and given all the CS/Snowing parallels, CS should then have a TLK at some point. It's just a question of when A&E decide they want to do it.

 

If Emma has to go find Killian to save him, then I think that would be different enough from the Zelena curse, or at least a bit of a different spin. If that's the case, then I could see Will going with her, since he has experience helping a strong woman search for her True Love. :) I agree that they could have the act of True Love being something different than a kiss in this instance and that Emma saying "I love you" would be a lot harder and more meaningful for her than just kissing Hook. Or her telling him that she believed he wouldn't leave her -- that would be a very meaningful leap of faith/trust/love for her.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Souris

[KingOfHearts]

Captain Swan needs that sort of push to really sell them as a True Love couple. I wouldn't mind if Rumpbelle or Outlaw Queen doesn't work out (I'd be happy, actually), but I'd feel cheated if Captain Swan didn't. They have some of the best chemistry on the show in my opinion as a romance. They haven't fallen victim to poor pacing or twisted morality like other couples on the show have, except for Snowing, but who really cares about them any more? They're in baby land. Captain Swan should really replace them as the strong couple pulling the show, in my opinion. I would be so mad if they broke that pairing or if Hook died, because that would bring Emma's walls up yet again.

A TLK or I love you would be perfect for this season. Even if it's a little angsty, I hope it drives them together in the end, not apart.

Ooh let's all read too much into this new promo bannerhttps://twitter.com/...587579313520641

There is fan art that is waaaay better than that. That looks more like a promo for Frozen itself than Once Upon a Time with Frozen. There's not even a hint of Once in the whole thing, except for #OnceIsFrozen. (Which means Once IS Frozen - it's not going to be its own TV show in S4! It's just Frozen now! Harr harr.) But seriously, it's a jump-the-shark banner. It just screams that they're running out of ideas and they're hoping Frozen will carry the weight for them.

Edited August 25, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Crimson Belle]

Ooh let's all read too much into this new promo banner

https://twitter.com/onceabc/status/503587579313520641

Translation:

 

"Fly you fools!"

[FabulousTater]

Translation:

 

"Fly you fools!"

I now have a great need to rewatch the entire LoTR trilogy, extended versions. (Noooo, I'm not procrastinating from doing real work...not at all). Thank you, Crimson Belle.

[Souris]

Interview with Scott Michael Foster.

[NotBothered]

Interview with Scott Michael Foster.

I have never seen so many exclamation points in one place before.

[sharky]

Translation:

 

"Fly you fools!"

Um....that was last season and those fools were called flying monkeys. Geez, how quickly the fickle forget. ;-)

[KAOS Agent]

I just do not understand this need people have for Emma to have to "prove" her love for Hook or how it's her turn to fight for him or whatever. It's been like three days since she said alright let's give this a try. They're going out on their first date. Let them breathe for a minute before you crush a very new and fragile relationship with expectations that Emma needs to be all in and declare her True Love for this guy. Please no frozen hearts or Hook pulling away so that Emma gets needy and feels abandoned. How about just letting them fumble through some early relationship issues (preferably more amusing ones than angsty) while dealing with whatever weirdness is going on in town? If this show becomes about a bunch of romantic angst, I won't deal well with it. They've already got Rumbelle angst with the dagger/potential blackmail and the Regina soulmate issues, let's not add in endless Captain Swan problems that will cause much wailing and gnashing of teeth and a bunch of Hook fans sending hate to JMo for being mean to poor Hook. 

[KingOfHearts]

The very a reason for confirmation is like you said, KAOSAgent. Without it, the writers are going to have a field day with angst. One romantic couple needs to get stable for now, or Marian, the dagger and Captain Swan problems will all be fighting for screen time. I don't believe the writers can just do a plain and simple early relationship without blowing everything up.

[Curio]

I just do not understand this need people have for Emma to have to "prove" her love for Hook or how it's her turn to fight for him or whatever. It's been like three days since she said alright let's give this a try. They're going out on their first date. Let them breathe for a minute before you crush a very new and fragile relationship with expectations that Emma needs to be all in and declare her True Love for this guy.

I don't think people are necessarily calling for Emma to profess her love any time soon, I think it's more like a general feeling that it should probably happen sometime later this season and not in Season 5+ or something. (Or maybe that's just what I'm thinking.) Personally, I'm actually okay with Emma truly opening up way later in 4B. Considering how fast the other major couples' relationships have progressed on this show, I'm hoping they keep things super slow with Hook and Emma. I like that it appears their first date doesn't go well and want them to keep stumbling along for a while until they figure out how to deal with each other on a more romantic level. If 4A ends with Emma just saying hey, I actually really like you a lot and want to make this relationship work long term, I'd be happy.

[YaddaYadda]

It's like the actors said, it's complicated.  They both have issues.  He has 300 years of baggage, that alone should be scary for someone like Emma.  I'm sure the big declaration will come eventually.  I like that they're not going at warp speed like I don't know, OQ (they're supersonic speed). 

[regularlyleaded]

I like that they're not going at warp speed like I don't know, OQ (they're supersonic speed).

I think the term you're looking for is "Ludicrous Speed!" :)

[FurryFury]

They haven't fallen victim to poor pacing or twisted morality like other couples on the show have, except for Snowing

 

Snowing had the Mary Margaret/David/Kathryn mess in season 1. God, I hated David Nolan. Thank god he was basically erased after s1 and replaced with EF Charming!

 

Anyway, I agree that it's too early for angsty, drawn-out relationship problems for CS. I do think some outside influence will split them up temporarily sooner or later, but I'd prefer later. Right now, let them deal with realistic and down-to-earth stuff. 

[YaddaYadda]

Anyway, I agree that it's too early for angsty, drawn-out relationship problems for CS. I do think some outside influence will split them up temporarily sooner or later, but I'd prefer later. Right now, let them deal with realistic and down-to-earth stuff.

 

 

I find absolutely nothing special about the whole TLK.  It has been so overdone on the show that it's become some sort of a running gag for me at least.  At this point, since I believe the show has dealt with the whole Regina/Snow hatred in their fairybacks and explained it up one side and down the other, can we re-focus that on explaining other characters now, like I don't know, Emma, David, Hook. 

 

Whatever is going on with Hook if it's something serious, I hope that people around Emma aren't the ones nudging her and being like well there's clearly something wrong with him.  I think it could be a good way to deal with her issues through him and whatever is going on.  Sort of goes back to the "I can't take a chance that I'm wrong about you" type of thing.

[Serena]

Snowing had the Mary Margaret/David/Kathryn mess in season 1. God, I hated David Nolan. Thank god he was basically erased after s1 and replaced with EF Charming!

To be fair, that was supposed to be twisted. David Nolan was supposed to be the anti-Charming, and he and MM did not end up together. The wife was portrayed completely sympathetically, while no amount of TL justified MM/David's behaviour. Contrast to S4, where Marian is probably gonna be an harpy that gets between OQ's tragic love, and you can see how far this show has fallen.

[RadioGirl27]

I just do not understand this need people have for Emma to have to "prove" her love for Hook or how it's her turn to fight for him or whatever. It's been like three days since she said alright let's give this a try.

I think it's because until now the relationship has been really unbalanced, with him being doing the romantic gestures. So people just need a visual/verbal confirmation of her feelings. And, really, the show has opened the door to it with the failed TLK and with the conversation between Charming and Hook in the finale. So if there isn't a gesture on her part it would be another failed expectation.

I really don't care anymore. I just wanted for them to have a bit of happiness, a "honeymoon" period, before everything went to hell. But, looking at the spoilers, it seems the drama and the angst are going to start immediately.

I fear they are going to become one of those tv pairings that go through so much that makes you wonder why they want to be together, or, worse, one of those pairing that, when they finally get together, nobody cares about them anymore.

Edited August 26, 2014 by RadioGirl27

[FurryFury]

To be fair, that was supposed to be twisted. David Nolan was supposed to be the anti-Charming, and he and MM did not end up together. The wife was portrayed completely sympathetically, while no amount of TL justified MM/David's behaviour.

 

Really? I got the feeling we were supposed to see this as "true love overcoming a curse" and to root for the affair. Anyway, it left a bad taste in my mouth, and I definitely didn't see any of the characters involved as likable (well, Kathryn was OK, I guess...) even if Regina was the only real villain.

 

I find absolutely nothing special about the whole TLK.  It has been so overdone on the show that it's become some sort of a running gag for me at least.

 

Yeah, I'm not sure how I feel about that. Last season, I kinda expected a kiss in the end, but it was very understated (too understated, even), but now... it would be too predictable, too cheesy. They have already hooked up, the romance has had enough spotlight for the viewers to know it's the endgame pairing (unless Colin decides to quit the show, which I don't see as likely)... I don't really care if the kiss happens or not. 

 

Contrast to S4, where Marian is probably gonna be an harpy that gets between OQ's tragic love, and you can see how far this show has fallen.

 

I'm probably delusional, considering the writers' Regina boner, but I still don't think Marian will be painted negatively. She'll, of course, die or be erased from reality or something, so Regina will get her happy ending with boring Robin, but I don't think she'll be a villain.

[Rumsy4]

I agree with Serena on the David/Mary Margaret/Kathryn thing. It was meant to contrast the failure of their cursed selves to do the right and courageous thing, unlike in the EF. That's why it was a moment of triumph when Mary Margaret ended the affair, and refused to get back to David Nolan. And when Kathryn made the decision to leave. I so agree that the Marian thing seems like a horrid parody of this triangle.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Rumsy4

[stealinghome]

I agree with Serena on the David/Mary Margaret/Kathryn thing. It was meant to contrast the failure of their cursed selves to do the right and courageous thing, unlike in the EF. That's why it was a moment of triumph when Mary Margaret ended the affair, and refused to get back to David Nolan. And when Kathryn made the decision to leave. I so agree that the Marian thing seems like a horrid parody of this triangle.

I agree that the David Nolan/Mary Margaret affair intentionally made both characters look bad--imo the show did a good job of making you both sympathetic for the Snow and Charming locked inside them that were trying to get out, but also making you despise both David Nolan and Mary Margaret (David Nolan way more) for being assholes. So I think the idea of that storyline was good--my problem with it is that it was by far the worst-written subplot of S1. Having David repeat over and over, like a zombie, "We'll find a way to be together...we'll find a way to be together" for like 6 episodes while no one mentioned divorce was stultifying. (Maybe it would hang together better now if I were to binge watch the episodes, but I remember it being just torturous at the time.) I mean, they literally gave him the same dialogue for six episodes straight, show me any TV show where that doesn't get old. The only reason it was less obnoxious than Emma's "New York City was JUST SO GREAT" refrain was that it didn't last as long.

 

However, ITA that everything we've gotten thus far hints at Marian being the Bad Guy in her triangle (whereas the show, imo, went out of its way to show that Kathryn was blameless and David and Mary Margaret at fault), and I concur that it's another example of how far the show has fallen. I've always thought that part of what made S1 so good was that it played with your expectations...having Kathryn not be in cahoots with Regina, but an innocent victim, was a great twist (I was so, so sure she was an evil Regina ally who also remembered the Enchanted Forest). That Marian is so obviously going to be painted as a jerk to justify the three-second "Epic Romance" getting back together is just, ugh. So gross, and so predictable.

Edited August 26, 2014 by stealinghome

[retrograde]

However, ITA that everything we've gotten thus far hints at Marian being the Bad Guy in her triangle (whereas the show, imo, went out of its way to show that Kathryn was blameless and David and Mary Margaret at fault), and I concur that it's another example of how far the show has fallen.

Wait, what have we gotten thus far that hints at this? One line about Regina being a monster? Or did I miss a spoiler?

[dassala]

 Having David repeat over and over, like a zombie, "We'll find a way to be together...we'll find a way to be together" for like 6 episodes while no one mentioned divorce was stultifying. (Maybe it would hang together better now if I were to binge watch the episodes, but I remember it being just torturous at the time.)

 

I originally binge-watched OUAT Seasons 1 and 2 and it was still awful.

 

The thing with Robin and Regina though...we know they're soulmates, according to Tinkerbell's magic. So that's why it's an epic romance after only three days.

 

I'm already over this Frozen thing. I'm much more interested in character development (hah!) and I want to know when the damn Black Fairy is going to show up. They mention her over and over and still no fairy. Maybe 4B if I'm a good girl? :)

[stealinghome]

No, to be fair we haven't had any direct spoilers about how the whole Regina/Robin/Marian triangle is going to resolve--the most we've seen/heard is Marian calling Regina a monster, the cast at Comic-Con saying Robin is very torn between them and none of them (the cast) want to be him right now, and a cranky-looking Marian hanging out with Roland and Robin. 

 

It's just that, given the writers' Regina permaboner and how premature ejaculation-y they were to give Regina her Confirmed Destined Soulmate Epic Love (barf) and that Marian thus far seems to be pretty cranky in all her filming appearances (not that I blame the poor woman at all), I just don't see any way this storyline ends well for Marian. Even if they portray her relatively sympathetically, it seems clear that her only purpose is as Roadblack For The Most Epic Love Of All Time (double barf).

 

Though believe me, I will happily eat crow if I'm wrong on this--I really want to be wrong!

[ShadowFacts]

I want you to be wrong, too.  I've been spitting up a little just thinking about it ever since the pixie dust true soulmate in the tavern scene.  Though if you're right and they do dispense with Marian, the epic love of Robin and Regina is going to be more than a little tainted.  Tainted love.  I'm hearing that song in my head.

[KingOfHearts]

Replying in Marian thread.

[Souris]

Welcome back to Maleficent.

[sharky]

Woohoo! Is it too much for me to hope she stays? With the way they are redeeming Regina, it would be nice to have a Big Baddie like that again. Also, it could play nicely if they want to spend more time in the present Enchanted Forest in season 5. I'm just really liking the whole idea of seeing her back.

[Rumsy4]

My first cynical thought was that they were bringing her back because of the recent successful Maleficent movie. 

 

This could be good or bad. Since Regina was the one who imprisoned her, she could have a vendetta against Regina, and that will end up being a replay of Woegina/Zelena. On the other hand, Emma was the one who killed her, and Hook defeated an undead Maleficent. So, she could end up going after all of them, plus Aurora and Phillip, who are now conveniently in Storybrooke, and are going to have a baby!! 

 

Well... this at least makes it clear that "Juliet" is not going to carry over into 4B. haha

Edited August 27, 2014 by Rumsy4

[YaddaYadda]

I think there has been too much that could potentially be related to Maleficent on the show.  Is she the Black Fairy?  Is she the one who makes that dark fairy dust Snow had? 

 

So me, rather excited about this.  Please don't screw it up writers!

 

ETA - Maleficent has every reason to go after everyone.  Regina kept her in the bowels of Storybrooke as a dragon, Rumple hid his tingy via Charming in her, Emma slayed the dragon and Hook had to also "kill" her Pokémon form.  She has legit reasons to hate.  I believe she wanted no part of the curse either.

Edited August 27, 2014 by YaddaYadda

[Mari]

I believe she wanted no part of the curse either.

You're right, she didn't.  Maleficent told Regina it was too dark, even for her. 

 

This is a villain who legitimately ties in with almost every main character on the show.  So, any guesses on how they're going to make it all about Regina this time?

[KingOfHearts]

YES. So much yes! Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes! I'm so happy. Finally a relevant villain who's been there from the start who is actually part of the main plot. We may finally get some of the Sleeping Beauty story with Phillip and Aurora filled out! Maleficent is so intelligent and much more clever than Regina/Zelena, so I'm happy about that. 

 

Forget Frozen, I'm waiting for 4B! 

Edited August 27, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[dassala]

Wasn't Maleficent a fairy in the new adaptation? Boom.

Edit: Meant to quote YaddaYadda on that...

Edited August 27, 2014 by dassala

[Mari]

Wasn't Maleficent a fairy in the new adaptation? Boom.

 

She was a fairy in the Disney cartoon, too.  She was just a fairy that suffered from the Mills' syndrome of extreme retaliation.

[Writing Wrongs]

My first cynical thought was that they were bringing her back because of the recent successful Maleficent movie.

 

 

Oh you know that's exactly why they are doing it.

[KAOS Agent]

To be fair, Kristin Bauer van Straten was a regular on True Blood and most likely hasn't been available for a long arc on Once until now. That doesn't mean that they aren't taking advantage of the Maleficent movie, but there are legitimate other reasons why she hasn't appeared before now.

[retrograde]

Surprised they leaked this -- both this early and at all. I wonder if they're dog whistling to both people who are skeptical about the Frozen arc and those who only planned to tune in for Frozen?

Anyway, yay, this is good news and makes me so glad True Blood is finally over, even if we did have to suffer through the worst finale ever to get there.

[snarkastic]

ETA - Maleficent has every reason to go after everyone.  Regina kept her in the bowels of Storybrooke as a dragon, Rumple hid his tingy via Charming in her, Emma slayed the dragon and Hook had to also "kill" her Pokémon form.  She has legit reasons to hate.  I believe she wanted no part of the curse either.

 

Even Robin and his Merry Men (including Will with his own agenda to obtain the Looking Glass) robbed her castle. So we have tangible ties to everyone except Snow and Belle. Maybe she's Belle's mother, lol.

[sharky]

Surprised they leaked this -- both this early and at all. I wonder if they're dog whistling to both people who are skeptical about the Frozen arc and those who only planned to tune in for Frozen?

I'm assuming the release is due to the True Blood finale just airing. Perhaps they expected this to get out as productions started to inquire about her.

I also wonder if she'll make her debut before the end of 4A. Maybe they set up her story in the final episodes -- unlike Zelena. Or could it be too much to hope that somehow the Snow Queen is involved with her. Black and white, fire and ice, and yet 100% pure evil. There's your tagline, ABC.

[Dejajeva]

Even Robin and his Merry Men (including Will with his own agenda to obtain the Looking Glass) robbed her castle. So we have tangible ties to everyone except Snow and Belle. Maybe she's Belle's mother, lol.

A&E "OH THAT'S A GOOD IDEA".

 

*runs off scribbling on the back of a napkin to make Maleficent Belle's mother*

 

This is what I picture them doing when they stalk these forums.

[Curio]

Surprised they leaked this -- both this early and at all.

It gives me hope that they'll introduce Maleficent later in 4A (perhaps as the Snow Queen's friend?) and --gasp!-- actually have some legitimate continuity between the two half seasons.

[KingOfHearts]

We could also see some interactions with Blue and Tink too if she's the disgraced, exiled Dark Fairy. It just writes itself!

[stealinghome]

I'm unsurprised about the Maleficent news, given that True Blood just ended, and I'm torn. On the one hand, I like KBvS a lot as an actress and think Maleficent has huge potential as a villain. On the other, we still have the same writers...part of me wants to call her and be like "stay away, stay FAR AWAY from this hot mess of a show!"

 

I am already way more intrigued by 4B than 4A, I will say.

 

My first cynical thought was that they were bringing her back because of the recent successful Maleficent movie.

Oh, I think that's definitely no small part of it.

[dassala]

Anyone know the timelines and fairy lore well enough to prove she's NOT Belle's Mom?

[sharky]

We could also see some interactions with Blue and Tink too if she's the disgraced, exiled Dark Fairy. It just writes itself!

The good/bad of that is that Rose McIver is a lead on iZombie now, which films in Vancouver. So maybe a guest spot here or there, but probably nothing more. Not that we already had more of that to begin with.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Anyone know the timelines and fairy lore well enough to prove she's NOT Belle's Mom?

 

Fairies are probably immortal or have really long lifespans. Blue has been around at least 300 years, because she was there when Bae went through the portal. The only real question is whether fairies can have children with humans or not. This all assumes Maleficent is a fairy on Once, which is more than likely.

Edited August 27, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[InsertWordHere]

Oh my goodness, this is exactly what I wanted. They don't even necessarily have to resurrect her since her Regina's explanation of her wraith form was kind of vague. Also, since Hook and Emma changed the past, it's possible something happened differently for Maleficent and this led to her not getting stuck under the library. This is also my main theory as to how they're going to explain Will's presence, unless they choose to just hand-wave it away by saying he was taken by the second curse.

[Jean]

Same Stealinghome. I love KBvS and she's awesome so I don't want her stuck playing some crappy ass character and writing which 100% guarantee it will be. If they make her a weak victim I will freak. But her and Robert together should be epic to watch.

I'm also not a big fan of the Philip and Aurora we have, too bland. Maybe they should cast Aurora's mom, the OG Aurora, and let her play the big role opposite Maleficent instead.

ETA: If Maleficent is the Black Fairy then I think I know how they'll explain her resurrection and re-introduction. Emma used her wand to open the portal in 3x22 and that probably triggered it. Remember how they said they shot an alternate scene? That was probably it until they got Frozen. Did they ever explain what the Black Wand does? It seems like it returns stuff back to the original or undo whatever happened? Rumple used it to switch back Pan and Henry and to get the curse back. Emma used it to reopen the portal and maybe that also undid her burning by Hook.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Jean

[retrograde]

Fairies are probably immortal or have really long lifespans. Blue has been around at least 300 years, because she was there when Bae went through the portal. The only real question is whether fairies can have children with humans or not. This all assumes Maleficent is a fairy on Once, which is more than likely.

Given how fine 95% of the fairies seemed to be with staying nuns even when they got their memories back, I don't know how many of them are that interested in sex.

[Souris]

ETA: If Maleficent is the Black Fairy then I think I know how they'll explain her resurrection and re-introduction. Emma used her wand to open the portal in 3x22 and that probably triggered it. Remember how they said they shot an alternate scene? That was probably it until they got Frozen. Did they ever explain what the Black Wand does? It seems like it returns stuff back to the original or undo whatever happened? Rumple used it to switch back Pan and Henry and to get the curse back. Emma used it to reopen the portal and maybe that also undid her burning by Hook.

 

Ah, nice recall about the alternate end scene! That makes a lot of sense.

 

However Rumple got possession of the wand, it stands to reason Maleficent will be pissed at him, too.

 

If Hook's restored hand is cursed and can't be cut off, maybe Emma can use the wand to either remove the curse or the hand itself.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Souris

[Joenigma]

 

I am already way more intrigued by 4B than 4A, I will say

Me too.

 

 

If Maleficent is the Black Fairy then I think I know how they'll explain her resurrection and re-introduction. Emma used her wand to open the portal in 3x22 and that probably triggered it. Remember how they said they shot an alternate scene? That was probably it until they got Frozen

 

With how early they announced of Maleficent's return, I too think that maybe she was meant to be the 4A villain until Frozen got approved.

 

 

I also wonder if she'll make her debut before the end of 4A. Maybe they set up her story in the final episodes -- unlike Zelena. Or could it be too much to hope that somehow the Snow Queen is involved with her. Black and white, fire and ice, and yet 100% pure evil.

 

If I were to connect the Frozen plot from 4A with Maleficent with 4B, it would be for the Snow Queen to have a quest to restore her. For all you know... Maybe they'll make them Sisters!

[FurryFury]

If Maleficent's a fairy (which I hope she will be, because the fairy mythology needs to be explored), I expect gifs with Pam's famous speech about Sookie's fairy vagina!

 

Anyway, I don't have any strong feelings about Maleficent herself (I'm probably the only person here who hasn't seen either the original Disney Sleeping Beauty or the Jolie movie), but at least she's been a part of the show from the beginning. But please, no vendetta against Regina. We'll get a fairyback of their meeting anyway, that would be enough. 

 

Anyone know the timelines and fairy lore well enough to prove she's NOT Belle's Mom?

 

Well, for starters, Belle doesn't seem to have any magical powers (thank God). And I think Adam and Eddy got enough flack for Pan and Zelena reveals to stop with the sudden relatives reveals, at least for a while.

Edited August 27, 2014 by FurryFury