Spoiler Discussion: The apple was poisoned?!

[kili]

I still don't understand why no one has ever asked him what cutting the darkness out of Emma means.

 

Hook tried asking once what the plan was and got platitudes from Merlin while the other Neverengeers expressed that they thought it was rude to ask questions.  Merlin defeinitely avoided the question.

 

He's like Dumbledore with the half-information and withholding important details. I still can't believe that Dumbledore never told them how to destroy a horocrux before he died. Why make any part of a nearly impossible task a little easier? The castle was full of horocrux destorying tools they could have snagged before heading out on the quest.

Edited November 23, 2015 by kili

[Rumsy4]

Question, would you guys rather have Emma kill Merlin or Hook?

 

Neither, tbh. 

With either Hook or Emma killing Merlin it feels like the writers wants their cake and to eat it too by making it really Nimue who kills him. I don't like that because now we must think of how Rumples actions are not all him.

 

Agree. And it goes beyond that, IMO. The writers are using Hook as a scapegoat by having him, and not Emma, cast the Dark Curse. The want the drama of the DO crushing hearts and acting like the Dark One. But they don't want Emma to cross the moral event horizon by killing someone in cold blood. They may bring her to the point (as with Merida/Zelena), but they won't have her actually go through with it. Having Hook kill Merlin seems a better option because he is a former villain. If he channels Nimue in order to do that, that becomes the mitigating factor. 

[shipperx]

I think it quite likely that Merlin has a stealth plan. That look he gave Emma and Hook... Merlin knew what was coming and kept quiet. He was also willing to give up his immortality hundreds of years ago. That was what Excalibur was formed to do. I suspect that ultimately it's going to be a Return of The Jedi ending where we see Darth Nimue with Obi Merlin.

And I suspect that rather than a Buffy/Angel ending where Emma kills Angelus Hook, it will be the Buffy/Spike Chosen ending, where he sacrifices his life to free her to live hers and to be a hero with a similar nod to Leia/Han

Edited November 23, 2015 by shipperx

[chrisvee]

"Oh, right. When I told you to use the potion in the green bottle, I should have mentioned the green bottle you are supposed to use is in the vault hidden under the floor in the invisible building you've never heard about. The green bottle right in front of us contains an uncurable poison. I guess I'm dead."

The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true. Danny Kaye apparently could have given Merlin some tips.

Edited November 23, 2015 by chrisvee

[YaddaYadda]

Hook tried asking once what the plan was and got platitudes from Merlin while the other Neverengeers expressed that they thought it was rude to ask questions.  Merlin defeinitely avoided the question.

 

He's like Dumbledore with the half-information and withholding important details. I still can't believe that Dumpledore never told them how to destroy a horocrux before he died. Why make any part of a nearly impossible task a little easier? The castle was full of horocrus destorying tools they could have snagged before heading out on the quest.

 

Merlin isn't like Dumbledore, he is Dumbledore.

 

This storyline has serious shades of Harry Potter in it.

 

In order to destroy that last piece of darkness, you must die, sacrificing himself? Check!

 

I wonder if Merlin will visit Hook in the Underworld too.

[OnceUponAJen]

I guess I'm envisioning an ending like The Empire Strikes Back, where Han is captured and taken back to Jabba. Then Leia and the gang set off to save him. At least there won't be a years-long break in between!

[chrisvee]

In order to destroy that last piece of darkness, you must die, sacrificing himself? Check!.

Excalibur, Liam's ring, and the Flame of Prometheus feel a bit deathly hallows-like.

This sure isn't like an Agatha Christie novel where the clues are all there.

[mjgchick]

I guess I'm envisioning an ending like The Empire Strikes Back, where Han is captured and taken back to Jabba. Then Leia and the gang set off to save him. At least there won't be a years-long break in between!

Yeah this is so giving me an Empire Strikes back tease.

[RadioGirl27]

Hook will forever be the guy who killed Merlin. :(

I'm not going to hold Hook accountable for this (or for any other thing he does as the DO). He didn't choose to become the DO, like Rumple or even Emma did, it was forced on him.

[Hookian]

They've created a new piece called The Sacrifice, how fitting for all the anti Hook fans that say he's not important he gets a musical piece created just for the occasion where he sacrifices his life to save Emma and everyone. 

[ABitOFluff]

I just need to know who  has Excalibur. If it's Emma, why doesn't she stop Hook?

[daxx]

I just need to know who  has Excalibur. If it's Emma, why doesn't she stop Hook?

Maybe Killian sticks it in the stone to stop anyone from controlling him.

[Hookian]

I'm so annoyed about the "Sacrifice."  Emma and Hook have done so much to change their lives and give to cast of characters and their reward is that Hook has to die and Emma has to go through hell to get him back?  Really?  Can't they have a moment's peace?  The worst that Snow and Charming went through was the Apple and not knowing each other in Storybrooke.  Regina and Robin just got a free baby and Belle puts up with whatever Gold is selling.  Why is it so hard for Hook and Emma?  I'm not looking forward to Sunday and Hook suddenly being mean to Emma.

Just look forward to the payoff after the hell arc for Killian and Emma. It's gonna be great and seeing Emma fight through hell to save her TL is gonna be amazing and I'm sure Hook is gonna try to find his own way out of the UW.

[OnceUponAJen]

^ Yes, after being so upset about Emma not doing anything to help him in the Hook's heart arc, I'm looking forward to this! When she finally admitted she wanted a future with him, it meant that she is going to go all in to save him.

[YaddaYadda]

All of this really has me anticipating the season finale. I wonder if they're gonna do another 2 hour like the season 3 finale.

[chrisvee]

I'm not going to hold Hook accountable for this (or for any other thing he does as the DO). He didn't choose to become the DO, like Rumple or even Emma did, it was forced on him.

This storyline makes me so uncomfortable. I feel like Emma violated Killian. But I don't blame her because she was half out of her mind trying to keep herself sane under conditions no other person could withstand.

Merlin is the one I blame.

This is starting to remind me of BTVS S6 when magic was suddenly an addictive drug.

ETA: Why is everyone assuming Killian will sacrifice himself? Emma may sacrifice him.

Edited November 24, 2015 by chrisvee

[Mathius]

Emma "sacrificing him" doesn't really make much sense in this context, as it wouldn't really be a sacrifice if he was just a villain she had to put down (and "sacrifice" is very seldom used that way in this show).  Hook sacrificing himself by taking on all the darkness like Emma had intended Zelena to do would make more sense, and regardless if Emma does the deed of killing him, if it's his intent for her to do so than it's still his sacrifice, not her's.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Mathius

[shipperx]

It would be rather oddly Emma centric for Hooks death to be her sacrifice. Sacrificing someone else as a 'sacrifice' conjours up a rather evil image of the one performing a 'sacrifice' of someone else's life (sort of the way Dark Swan was intending to sacrifice Zelena). So while it might be possible to make this into Emma's sacrifice, their choice of that particular word ups the likelihood (to me) that it will be Killian's. It's easier to use sacrifice for giving your own life as opposed to taking someone else's

[chrisvee]

I think it makes a lot of sense in this context. Emma must sacrifice the dream of her life with Killian by releasing him to death to rid them of the darkness. She must do what she couldn't in Camelot. She must do what Merlin couldn't. Killian's the price. That's the way I think the story will go if A&E stay true to form. They might go the other way and have Killian sacrifice himself. But either way I don't think it can be deduced from that title.

Killian doesn't have a life other than the one that Emma unnaturally extended for him against his wishes. Doesn't seem odder to me than Buffy sacrificing Angel. And Emma-centric makes sense since this is Emma's arc which they boiled down to her fear of commitment (again).

Edited November 24, 2015 by chrisvee

[KingOfHearts]

I'm really not a fan of the Dark Hook storyline. We've already seen Hook as a villain and we've seen what happens when a good person turns into the DO. Even though I'm pro-Captain Swan, I find this development more irksome than romantic. There's going to be a lot of magical shenanigans to glue 5A and 5B together that's going to play out in the next couple of episodes. Papa Hook is this year's gauntlet.

[kili]

I think it makes a lot of sense in this context. Emma must sacrifice the dream of her life with Killian by releasing him to death to rid them of the darkness. She must do what she couldn't in Camelot. She must do what Merlin couldn't. Killian's the price.

But this show has come strongly down on sacrificing other people's lives for the greater good. The person can choose to sacrifice their life, but nobody else gets to make that choice for them.  The only villains who have been killed by the good guys have been Cora and Cruella and both of those events were portrayed as being bad. Rumple killed Pan, Tamara and Greg which he got a pass on, but he is a grey character.

 

Charming jumped in front of an arrow to save Regina. Snowing spared Regina's life many times. Rumple's life was saved on at least two occasions (after being stabbed by Hook and when his heart gave out). Ingrid took her own life. Zelena was kind of killed by Rumple (portrayed as badish since Regina spared her life).

 

Hook being sacrificed to save the town by a good person (even if she is the Dark One at the time), would be a change. Even Hook, a Dark One, objected to sacrificing Zelena. So, how can they show Emma's sacrifice as a good thing?

 

Morality in Storybrooke is also a Calvinball.

Edited November 24, 2015 by kili

[chrisvee]

If she has to kill him to stop some imminent hell on earth army of dark ones scenario that he's working to bring forth, it can be both a justifiable killing and a personal sacrifice.

I hope it's not that but frankly this entire 'reinvent the Dark One mythology' arc has been a bit of a nightmare all around.

[KAOS Agent]

 

Hook is having a duel with Rumple, not a dual.

 

Maybe you guys are being too hard on the ABC intern. Maybe Hook challenges Rumpel to a dual duel. We know Head!Rumpel is there. He can be fighting both of them. No? Well, I tried.

 

I'm pretty sure that the sacrifice is a joint decision between Emma & Hook. And I want Emma's family and friends to shut up about everything ever afterwards because these two people put their lives on the line to save them and lost big time. Underworld retrieval being possible or not, they all gave up on Hook in Camelot and told Emma there is no hope. If I were Emma, when this is all over, I'd take my pirate, find a nice deserted island and stay there. 

[Hookian]

I'm really not a fan of the Dark Hook storyline. We've already seen Hook as a villain and we've seen what happens when a good person turns into the DO. Even though I'm pro-Captain Swan, I find this development more irksome than romantic. There's going to be a lot of magical shenanigans to glue 5A and 5B together that's going to play out in the next couple of episodes. Papa Hook is this year's gauntlet.

Nah because unlike the gauntlet Papa Hook is sticking around for multiple episodes. 

 

I basically suspect the darkness will be destroyed in 5A with Hook's sacrifice, and whether Emma kills him or he kills himself the sacrifice is still his. Then 5B is Operation Light Swan and they all go to the UW to get Emma back her happy ending.

 

You guys know that they don't take the Operation names lightly, this one will be no different.

[MMR]

Second half of the season is always Regina heawy so I'm not surprised that she's conected to Hook's storyline and father. Can't wait for more Evil Queen flashbacks cuz there's no way Regina is going to be evil again in present time.

So Zelena has new scenes with Hook and Emma in second half. Wasn't there a spoiler about some triangle betwen them?

[Mathius]

It would be rather oddly Emma centric for Hooks death to be her sacrifice. Sacrificing someone else as a 'sacrifice' conjours up a rather evil image of the one performing a 'sacrifice' of someone else's life (sort of the way Dark Swan was intending to sacrifice Zelena).

 

Exactly.  If this "Emma kills Hook thus sacrifices him" thing was the case, then it's no better than her initial plan, it just hurts her now.  A real sacrifice in such a scenario would be Emma taking all the darkness and killing herself, not killing another person.  As it is, I think that sacrifice will play out, but Hook is the one who will be doing it.

 

Emma must sacrifice the dream of her life with Killian by releasing him to death to rid them of the darkness.

 

But if Killian is irreversibly dark when she kills him, then she wouldn't have any chance for that dream of her life anyway.  Killing him isn't a sacrifice because she's already lost him.

 

And Emma-centric makes sense since this is Emma's arc which they boiled down to her fear of commitment (again).

 

But it's been confirmed as a Hook-centric, not an Emma-centric.  And this really isn't Emma's arc, it's everyone else's arc in reaction to Emma. This has been covered before in the Writers thread.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Mathius

[KingOfHearts]

 

Nah because unlike the gauntlet Papa Hook is sticking around for multiple episodes.

Are we sure about that? I thought the actor was only confirmed to be in the 100th.

[KAOS Agent]

 

Second half of the season is always Regina heawy so I'm not surprised that she's conected to Hook's storyline and father. Can't wait for more Evil Queen flashbacks cuz there's no way Regina is going to be evil again in present time.

 

Actually, that would be why I would be very surprised if Regina is in any way connected to the Hook storyline. Regina is going to be dealing with her own shit. That's why Cora was around and why the Evil Queen seems to be back. Maybe it's possible that Regina made a deal with Charon (if that's Hook's father) to provide him with souls back in the day? But that doesn't match up with her not understanding what the fury was in "The Price" I would suspect that all those three people clamoring for more Outlaw Queen are going to be longing for the days of them adoringly looking at Baby to Be Inappropriately Named Later with 5B.  Things for Regina are about to get real and it isn't going to be remotely related to Hook other than he's the reason they are in the Underworld.

[Souris]

I'm really not a fan of the Dark Hook storyline. We've already seen Hook as a villain and we've seen what happens when a good person turns into the DO. Even though I'm pro-Captain Swan, I find this development more irksome than romantic. 

 

I'm not a big fan of it, either. I'm just going to keep chanting "Colin's acting! Colin's acting!" until it's over.

 

So Zelena has new scenes with Hook and Emma in second half. Wasn't there a spoiler about some triangle betwen them?

 

There was a ridiculous article with ridiculous speculation that some people took as possible spoilers instead of the ridiculous speculation it was. Said article also speculated that Hook would use his friendship with Robin to turn everyone against Emma. Insert eye roll. It was full of laughable clunkers.

 

Are we sure about that? I thought the actor was only confirmed to be in the 100th.

 

He's definitely in 5x11 and seems to have filmed for 5x13 as well. (5x12 is the 100th.)

[Hookian]

Second half of the season is always Regina heawy so I'm not surprised that she's conected to Hook's storyline and father. Can't wait for more Evil Queen flashbacks cuz there's no way Regina is going to be evil again in present time.

So Zelena has new scenes with Hook and Emma in second half. Wasn't there a spoiler about some triangle betwen them?

 

Just cause it's Regina heavy doesn't mean it isn't Hook heavy as well since the entire reason they're in the UW is because of him. He's gonna be a very big part of 5B. This isn't like 4B.

 

It's Operation Light Swan and he is at the center of it. Just like Regina was at the center of Operation Mongoose.

 

Ew no. That was that stupid HR article speculating, it was a garbage article with zero spoilers. It had a bunch of crack theories that were went from disgusting to insulting.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Hookian

[InsertWordHere]

If the Sacrifice theme is for Hook, then I hope it has hints of his pirate theme. Or maybe not, because I'm sure they will use the pirate theme for Dark Hook. 

[PixiePaws1]

In SB my guess for the sequence of events - the one I can handle and lets me explain why anyone other than Emma would venture to the UW to retrieve Killian is this:

 

Killian is furious with Emma but he’s all talk about hurting her until he calms down.

He goes after Rumple to get his revenge - because, although I think he went borderline bonkers in Camelot with earworm Rumple, I don’t think he had completely embraced the Dark, otherwise earworm Rumple wouldn’t show up for the duel (unless there is something else at play or they just changed the rules of when you see the previous DO).

 

Real world Rumple talks him down (this idea makes me vomit because whatever the show tries to tell me, freaking Rumple is not a hero! Getting a free pass by having your heart wiped doesn’t qualify in my book and never will. He’s the whole cause of everything that has happened - he had to come back to SB!). I like someone else’s idea that earworm Rumple miscalculates, like Nimue did with Emma, and says exactly the one thing that makes him stop. Possibly Emma poofs him away and talks him down - but I like the idea that he stops himself because he has earned that kind of self-redemption, goodness knows he has demonstrated he can do that for himself many times over.

 

Killian takes all of the Darkness from Emma using the spell she had planned to use on Zelena, breaking her curse, and as she is now curse free and can TLK him to break his curse or more likely they use Excalibur to free him and the sword breaks apart as a result, because somehow the dagger survives (maybe the top half doesn’t).

 

Everything is just lovely for all of 5 seconds because they think they have beaten the Darkness, and Killian is still alive BUT the price for saving Killian’s life still hasn’t been paid. Hades turns up and demands the price be paid and if Killian isn’t paying up, then Hades is going to take it one way or another. I think he is the one that lets the previous Dark Ones loose in SB and they are going to mark all of Emma’s family and friends unless Killian gives himself up or someone else volunteers.

 

Queue tearful farewell because no way is Killian letting anyone else die for him. Emma is a basket case until someone comes up with the plot device that means there is a chance to retrieve Killian from the UW. Maybe they talk to him via Merida’s shade ale and he explains a loophole and Emma is bound and determined to get him back. It would be nice if there were volunteers to help from those who have ignored her, not trusted her, not helped her or those who have everything they ever wanted, including a shiny new baby without the stretch marks and the labour pain, handed to them on a silver platter after Emma and Killian sacrificed EVERYTHING for their ungrateful arse, actually offered to help without blackmail or being guilted into it.

 

I also think only those who have been marked are actually able to get into the UW - like a pass code.

 

Most of the above relies on the theory that once Emma’s curse is broken she actually has to change out of her Dark One duds and fix her hair, because we know Jen is still dressed as Dark Swan when the cloaked figures are marking people. If she spontaneously resets back to her immediate pre  DO clothes, she’d be wearing the white cloak and dress. Even if she reset to her clothes when she first took on the Darkness she wasn’t wearing the jacket, just the white jumper (of course she could just magic them on - but she might be a bit gun shy when she is first freed from the Darkness.

[chrisvee]

But it's been confirmed as a Hook-centric, not an Emma-centric. And this really isn't Emma's arc, it's everyone else's arc in reaction to Emma. This has been covered before in the Writers thread.

Um...ok. Guess I missed the memo, what with Emma getting all these internal tests that have nothing to do with others' reactions to her. Hook-centric doesn't have to mean anything more than he's the center of the story.

And this is inherently different than Emma's plan with Zelena since Hook would be actively attacking them.

But YMMV. No one knew tethering someone to Excalibur's fragment made them evil until it aired. Plenty of people believed that Killian's name on Excalibur was a good thing. Until we get further spoilers, it won't be clear.

Key questions for me are whether Hook would die if Emma untethered him from Excalibur and if we have a confirmed spoiler about whether he's still dressed as Dark Hook in the UW.

Edited November 24, 2015 by chrisvee

[YaddaYadda]

No one knew tethering someone to Excalibur's fragment made them evil until it aired.

 

But it's not the sword that made him evil. It's basically Merlin that made him like that. Merlin was forced to do things like use his magic to try and kill MM, or fight Emma, so his magic was turning dark, like Emma's magic was turning dark. 

 

But regarding this whole sacrifice thing, Hook was always going to be Emma's price to pay. Merlin told Emma not to do what she was about to do unless she was ready to pay the steepest of prices.

 

Honestly though, I've really been wondering about the whole immortality thing, and if Excalibur didn't cut away that from Hook. We don't know what someone who is losing their immortality looks like. 

 

If Hook's father is Charon, then those are things that make me go "hmmm", because maybe the immortality gene gets passed down?

[kili]

The Scriptease is weirdly cut-off when I look at it twitter, but it is Belle and the writer's seem to have a macro for what she says. "led get to the lib...lot to do". Is no doubt "I should bet to the library.  I have a lot to do".

 

I should hope that their should not be a book on this subject since there has never been two Dark Ones and Merlin has been in a tree for centuries so even he couldn't write this stuff down (though, I guess he could have dictated it to somebody). Don't overuse the library A&E - it's not a get out of jail free card for all hard situations.  The newborn-cry to wipe out the lightness was pushing it because it would appear that nobody ever cast that spell (or else there would be no lightness). 

 

If Belle comes running in with the cure for a Double Dark One, I'm side-eyeing it.

[YaddaYadda]

I should hope that their should not be a book on this subject since there has never been two Dark Ones and Merlin has been in a tree for centuries so even he couldn't write this stuff down

 

There seems to be a book about that, and Emma seems to be the one that has it in her basement, sitting there on the table, with her Dollarama chemistry kit.

 

Emma is planning on take the darkness out of her, and Hook, and put it in Zelena before she kills her. Much as I love Emma, I'm thinking the idea isn't entirely hers.

[FierceAfroChick]

Honestly though, I've really been wondering about the whole immortality thing, and if Excalibur didn't cut away that from Hook. We don't know what someone who is losing their immortality looks like. 

 

If Hook's father is Charon, then those are things that make me go "hmmm", because maybe the immortality gene gets passed down?

 

But Hook wasn't immortal, was he?  While he was in Neverland, he the normal aging process ceased.  Once he left, the aging continued.  And I know he didn't age while in the EF with Cora because of Regina's curse.  But once that was over, aging took over again.  I don't think Hook was ever immortal until he became a Dark One.

Edited November 24, 2015 by FierceAfroChick

[snarkybelle]

Emma is planning on take the darkness out of her, and Hook, and put it in Zelena before she kills her. Much as I love Emma, I'm thinking the idea isn't entirely hers.

That's interesting.  Maybe it's Regina's idea. Kill 2 birds with one stone (or sword).

[KingOfHearts]

 

He's definitely in 5x11 and seems to have filmed for 5x13 as well. (5x12 is the 100th.)

I meant 5x11, not the 100th, sorry. 

[YaddaYadda]

BTS video of Hook/Rumple sword fight.

I've always been a sucker for a good sword fight. 

[KingOfHearts]

 

I've always been a sucker for a good sword fight.

I wish those existed past S2.

[YaddaYadda]

I wish those existed past S2.

I think the last one we got was back in season 3, Hook against Blackbeard. There was also the one in 3x22.

 

But I don't think we really got anything in season 4.

[Souris]

They better not have neophyte swordsman Rumple win, against a 200-year-old pirate who's now a Dark One.

[orza]

Rumple proved himself a capable swordsman in The Crocodile. He also has a few hundred years experience with a sword.

[chrisvee]

But it's not the sword that made him evil. It's basically Merlin that made him like that. Merlin was forced to do things like use his magic to try and kill MM, or fight Emma, so his magic was turning dark, like Emma's magic was turning dark.

Who knew you could tether people to an Excalibur fragment against their will, force them to do bad things to turn their magic dark, extract that darkness from them, then use that darkness to tether another person to the Excalibur fragment to turn them dark...ok now I have a headache. :)

It was easier to understand when the Dagger was created by a good guy to put limits on an already bad guy in order to contain powers that couldn't outright be destroyed.

I seriously hope some OUAT writer explains this all at some point. It's as if no one has free will anymore.

Totally agree that Killian was always going to be Emma's price.

[HoodlumSheep]

Rumple proved himself a capable swordsman in The Crocodile. He also has a few hundred years experience with a sword.

I've always questioned whether those were Rumple's sword skills or if he got a boost from being Dark One somehow. He probably had some sort of skill. It's just, if Rumple was that good with a sword to begin with, I don't get why he was so scared about going up against Hook in the first place. But judging by the video, he does have sword skill apparently.

Also, just because Rumple is also 200 yrs old, it doesn't necessarily mean he has 200 yrs of skill. Unless he practiced sword fighting every morning before making his first deal of the day or something.

Hook still doing the fancy spin, I see.

[InsertWordHere]

I always thought he got some Matrix-like swordfighting download from the other Dark Ones. Also, it's probably a lot easier to make offensive moves if you know you can teleport out of the way and that it's virtually impossible for the enemy to harm you. Now the positions are reversed, but not really, because Hook already has his own knowledge of sword-fighting. However, Hook will be fighting with his temper instead of his wits, something that doesn't usually end well for him. 

[shipperx]

I understand the plot reasons that this evokes Angel/Buffy reference. But it seems purely plot. (Male love goes dark, female has to off him for the greater good). But the background and support of the story is very different. The point of Season 2 Buffy was that she was a very young girl who had gotten in very deeply over her head. She knew virtually nothing of Angels background -- willfully so -- she flipped over the pages of his biography detailing the dark aspects to search for what kind of girl he wanted to date (and got all her guesses totally wrong,) and Angel would basically lie and obsfuscate about his past (such as leaving the impression he had spent 100 years in angst rolling in the gutter in remorse...when in unexpurgated truth he'd followed Darla to China and killed people to prove to her he 'hadn't changed' as he begged her to take him back, or that he'd fed a bunch of folks to a deman in 1950s because he 'couldn't be bothered to care,' or whatever it was he was doing in the Brady bunch striped pants that got that guy killed in the 1970s. When asked about Drusilla, he was practically 'Drusilla, who?' Until Dru kidnapped him for vengeance, And he was also misleading about exactly who Spike was (pretty much only being accurate in characterizing his tenaciousness).

Anyway the point of the Buffy story was Buffy growing up. She was naive. Angel had a lot of secrets that he kept from her. The show hit this note very strongly when they had her looking like a child with a lollipop with him looking like a playground lurking perv in the L.A. flashback in Becoming. Whedon himself said it was about sleeping with an inappropriately older guy then waking up to realize you knew nothing about him and his turning into a monster. The metaphor was about her innocence being destroyed (it was even a title of an episode) by growing up too fast.

That is not the subtext of Captain Swan.

Emma is more latter season Buffy than early Season Buffy. Emma is already full of distrust and cynicism. Hers is a journey in learning to trust and to hope. In this story, Hook is the guy she can 'see a future with'. That was NOT Angels role in season 2 ( in fact the only reason he didn't stay dead is the WB began to plan his spun off series. Otherwise he was going to be permanently dead)

So while there may be plot similarities between Dark Hook and Angelus, the story subtext is quite different.

Hook is actually quite different from Angel, personality wise. What drives hook is different than Angel. Angel was the guy who rewrote his love's memory and gave up his chance to be human because of his need to be 'hero' of the piece. Hook is the 'anything for love' type.

So while Hook may have an Angelus phase, I'm still guessing he's more the 'give my life so she can have one' guy than the 'cursed with a soul...three times' guy who really really really needs to be the hero because he's kinda Calvinistic about these sorts of things ala Angel.

And Emma... Isn't an ingenue like Season 2 Buffy.

Edited November 24, 2015 by shipperx

[orza]

It's not canon that Rumple got his sword fighting skills from being the Dark One. The BTS video shows that Storybrook Rumple does indeed have some skills without magic and without being the Dark One..

 

Hook also may not necessarily have 200 years of sword fighting experience. He didn't seem to need much in the way of fighting skills during the time he was trapped in Neverland. He had a deal with Pan and there were no other enemies there to fight.

Edited November 24, 2015 by orza

[LizaD]

 

But it's been confirmed as a Hook-centric, not an Emma-centric.  And this really isn't Emma's arc, it's everyone else's arc in reaction to Emma.

 

I think it's equally been a Hook-Emma centric arc. Don't think Emma's gotten this much POV since S1. And really no one has gotten a chance to react to DS except for Hook and hero Rump. In Camelot it's been Emma centric and Storybrooke has been more Hook centric. It should've been a 3-way Hook/Emma/Rump arc with the DO stuff at the center. I'm surprised at how much of a non-player Rump has been. We're still missing his role in all of this. He does have the broken dagger again at the end of 5x11 and I'm going to lay my money on him getting magic back but without the DO stuff.

 

It is curious though that "Swan Song" emphasis on Swan, ends up being a Hook and Woegina centric. They just can't help themselves can they? It would make better sense to have it be Hook and Rump, and/or Emma, and Rump with the connection to Hook's daddy.