Spoiler Discussion: The apple was poisoned?!

[formerlyfreedom]

Folks, the upgrades of Rebecca Mader and Sean Maguire to series regulars is news, not Spoilers. If you want to talk about what they might do next season, the correct place to do that is in the Speculation topic.

 

We won't move anything before this, but going forward, posts may be moved or REmoved.

 

ETA: Discussion of Merlin et al can stay here for the time being, although it IS known that Merlin will be in next season (Guinevere and Arthur aren't widely known yet). Thank you!

[Souris]

Oh, OK, I figured it would be spoilers. Thanks for the clarification!

[retrograde]

On a positive note, the fact that Arthur and Guinevere will be around seems to confirm the show will actually be going to Camelot, so I'm pretty excited about that. Also, hooray for proactive diverse casting.

[Shanna Marie]

I really think they should send the guys on their own little adventure.  A thief, a pirate and a prince who used to be a shepherd.  I don't know that Snow would be able to go look for Emma because of the baby and what the time jump will be because it seems like there might be one from one of the interviews we got with A&E.

 

The finale of season 3, Hook and David sitting around the fire just chatting about love was a great scene.

Taking this to Speculation without Spoilers.

[ParadoxLost]

ARTHUR is described as someone who came from low birth and now is king, a “good and just ruler” who, beneath the surface, “is a master manipulator who can carry a grudge to the grave, and maybe beyond.” He harbors an “eternal burning love” for Guinevere that can lean toward being a bit… controlling. For this role, Once aims to cast a gent in his mid-30s to early 40s, and again a British accent is mandatory.

 

The grudge holding beyond the grave makes me think they'll make more out of Lancelot's death and maybe Lancelot is only mostly dead.  They don't need to cast, so they can keep his participation hidden for a while if they go that way.

 

"Burning" love has me thinking that Malificent was masquerading as Guinevere and that is how Lily happened. 

 

'He was a just and good ruler who was a master manipulator' TS, TW. 

[Shanna Marie]

'He was a just and good ruler who was a master manipulator' TS, TW.

Yeah, those don't go together, unless maybe he ruled a kingdom of idiots and was manipulating them into doing things for their own good.

 

A thought on the ages of the Camelot folks and how the 28-year jump might have affected them -- it's part of the legend (in some versions) that both Merlin and Arthur are put into some sort of hibernation. Merlin is put into a crystal cave, crystal pillar or hawthorn tree, and if Merlin is the same person as the Sorcerer, then when we got a glimpse of him, he was non-corporeal. Arthur is said to be sleeping below a hill/mountain, to be brought back when Britain needs him again. Using some variation on the legend would allow them to be more or less the same age in the present as in the flashbacks. And that could be why they want Gwen to be so much younger, so she won't be too much older than they are in the present after they're revived (assuming she wasn't in the Coradome with Lancelot -- if he ever really was and that wasn't just Cora). If they're casting younger, then that might mean that most of her scenes will be in flashback, since they tend to cast for the age that's seen most.

 

Not that they've bothered aging up or down all that much, with a few notable exceptions.

[Camera One]

For MERLIN, Once is seeking an African American in his early 30s to early 40s and boasting a natural British accent to play “a man with great wisdom and intelligence beyond his years,” someone who has always put duty in front of his own desires, even at great personal cost.

 

Man with great wisdom and intelligence?  Are you kidding me?  The description should've said dumbass and incompetent fool who can't do anything right.

[KAOS Agent]

I'm surprised that Merlin is supposed to have a natural British accent. Does this imply that he is not the sorcerer? Because the sorcerer's voice was decidedly not British and voiced by the awesome, but very American, Jonathan Adams. 

[Camera One]

Accents change when it crosses realms.

[YaddaYadda]

A thought on the ages of the Camelot folks and how the 28-year jump might have affected them -- it's part of the legend (in some versions) that both Merlin and Arthur are put into some sort of hibernation. Merlin is put into a crystal cave, crystal pillar or hawthorn tree, and if Merlin is the same person as the Sorcerer, then when we got a glimpse of him, he was non-corporeal. Arthur is said to be sleeping below a hill/mountain, to be brought back when Britain needs him again.

 

It would be neat if they made Arthur and Hook contemporaries.  Boyfriend has just Rumple from the same time period.

 

The description should've said dumbass and incompetent fool who can't do anything right.

Who creates magical artifacts that are the equivalent of the atomic bomb.  

 

I'm surprised that Merlin is supposed to have a natural British accent. Does this imply that he is not the sorcerer?

Then that would make the Apprentice as incompetent as Merlin.  But we already knew that.

[retrograde]

Matt Mitovich clarified in the comments that the casting call did not confirm the death of Lancelot. I think there's still a decent chance Cora was just lying. The "African-American" thing was also his screw up. 

Edited June 10, 2015 by retrograde

[LizaD]

The lack of Morgana casting fuels the Emma = Morgana theory. She could still be casted yet, I suppose.

Why? I'm not seeing the connection. Morgan is generally best known for being a powerful fae that was Merlin's apprentice and Arthur's adversary. And however they want to do their own crappy "original" take on that, that's not a role Emma can fill that I can see.

Arthur and Gwen are for sure Snow's era seeing as how Lancelot was hanging out with them. In fact Woegina is probably filling the role of "Morgan." I can see Arthur being enemies with both her and Snowing and then they'll have to go begging him for help to find Merlin. A&G do need connections to the main cast after all. Maybe Gwen is another Snow BFF. Snow was probably head cheerleader in telling Gwen to cheat on Arthur.

They can also go with Madam Mim instead who was in Disney's Sword. I'm convinced they have another big "mystery" character up their sleeves that they don't need a casting call for ala Elizabeth Mitchell. Most likely where the original Dark Goo came from if they're really not going with Merlin as the big bad.

I don't think there needs to be an aging explanation for Merlin who's immortal and pre-dates Rump. We know he was active while everyone was in stasis, since he was able to send his dumb apprentice to the real world to tell Lily the truth about Snowing's evilness.

[Shanna Marie]

I'm not going to hold my breath that Morgan will show up. They've shown that they don't ever go very deep in using the source mythology, just hitting the most famous high points with very little nuance. Arthur, Gwen, Merlin, and Lancelot are the big players in the Camelot story that most people know about. I also don't expect them to dig much deeper than the love triangle.

 

Morgan/Morgana may be better known at the moment with younger viewers because of the recent BBC series (and I noticed a lot of comments on that article campaigning to just bring over the cast from that show), but I get the feeling the writers for this show don't go much beyond "I think I saw that movie when I was a kid" for researching their source mythology and mining story potential from it. I'm really thinking they didn't spend their hiatus reading Le Morte d'Arthur or even The Once and Future King. At best, they might have flipped through a picture book from The Sword in the Stone.

 

Ooh, I wonder if they'll use the Merlin aging backwards thing.

[Camera One]

I'm not going to hold my breath that Morgan will show up. They've shown that they don't ever go very deep in using the source mythology, just hitting the most famous high points with very little nuance. Arthur, Gwen, Merlin, and Lancelot are the big players in the Camelot story that most people know about. I also don't expect them to dig much deeper than the love triangle.

 

Yeah, exactly.  Look at Glinda.  'Nuff said.

[tennisgurl]

I love Camelot mythology, so I am kind of excited, kind of dreading this. I do hope they manage to make it its own place, even if its the same rhelma s the EF. I sometimes feel like, whenever we see a new world or kingdom, it all has a kind of "vague Western Europe Middle Ages with some Renascence" vibe to it, unless they go to somewhere like Victorian London. I hope Camelot feels different enough. 

[RadioGirl27]

I'm surprised that Merlin is supposed to have a natural British accent. Does this imply that he is not the sorcerer? Because the sorcerer's voice was decidedly not British and voiced by the awesome, but very American, Jonathan Adams.

Well, young Lily was a Latina and adult Lily is Caucasian, so if time can change your ethnicity, imagine what it can do with your accent.

[myril]

'He was a just and good ruler who was a master manipulator' TS, TW. 

 

Might sound more positive if using charmer instead of manipulator, because that could fit the common image of Arthur - though it is pretty much the same, just seen from different angles.In recent modern politics it's called nudging, an attempt to gently make you do the right thing (whatever whoever defines as doing the right thing). Benevolent but arrogantly convinced, that some know better than everybody else, that the mass of people is overwhelmed by (modern) life and has to be gently shepherded (aka nudged aka manipulated) to find their true happiness. 

[KingOfHearts]

I thought Morgana was better known than Guinevere, or at least equally. As far as Emma = Morgana goes, it's just the type of thing this show would do. Emma gets transported to Camelot, gets tutored by Merlin, then becomes Morgana. It sounds crazy, but many also said Zelena = Marian was too.

If Guinevere is in it, I don't know why Morgana wouldn't be.

[Rumsy4]

I agree KoH. If they do a timejump by 6 months, that might be enough time for Emma to gain a reputation as a Dark Sorceress. If Merlin ends up mentoring Emma, it will parallel Regina/Rumple. Maybe Emma will finally learn to harness her magical potential properly

[YaddaYadda]

Matt Mitovich clarified in the comments that the casting call did not confirm the death of Lancelot. I think there's still a decent chance Cora was just lying. The "African-American" thing was also his screw up. 

So I wanna make sure I get this right.  Merlin is not supposed to be African-American?

 

How did he screw up like that or did A&E change their minds about the skin color and Matt Mitovich is taking the flack for it?

 

I find it funny that they are insisting that both Arthur and Merlin have British accents (which is really find by me, guys with British accents, you know...sort of swoon.  I'm shallow, sue me!), but Gwen does not need to have a British accent and Lancelot certainly did not have a British accent, so how does that work exactly?

 

I also hate the very idea of Merlin training Emma while she has the Dark One inside of her, because Merlin seems to be a bit of an idiot from what I gather, so he's bound to screw up and unleash something or make some other magical object and mess that up too.  The dagger is no longer in his possession, the hat is somewhere...

 

I'm still curious about his character though and what kind of sacrifices he had to make though I'm getting an inkling that he just couldn't live like some mere mortal, have a wife, kids and so on...

[pezgirl7]

So I wanna make sure I get this right.  Merlin is not supposed to be African-American?

 

How did he screw up like that or did A&E change their minds about the skin color and Matt Mitovich is taking the flack for it?

 

I'm pretty sure Merlin is meant to be black, but Matt probably just changed the wording to be politically correct. His site now says "For MERLIN, Once is seeking a black Brit". I think Black British is the correct term.

 

I really don't know much about the whole Camelot legend, so I'm kinda blah about next season. Although I think it will be fun going to another world that looks like the EF. I also think Guinevere is much more well known than Morgana. The only reason I've ever even heard of Morgana is because I watched a few episodes of Camelot on Starz.

[Shanna Marie]

So I wanna make sure I get this right.  Merlin is not supposed to be African-American?

He's supposed to be black and British. The screw-up was defaulting to the PC term "African-American" for referring to a person with dark skin of African descent, even though they specified they wanted an actor with a "natural British accent" and therefore not an American. (That's been tripping up journalists from the start because not all dark-skinned people from Africa/of African descent are American, so how do you describe them if you're not allowed to use other terms? The style guide for our campus newspaper back in the late 80s specifically outlawed the word "black," with "African-American" the only allowed term, which created problems for trying to write about the conflicts in South Africa because both sides were "African" and none of them were American.)

 

I find it funny that they are insisting that both Arthur and Merlin have British accents (which is really find by me, guys with British accents, you know...sort of swoon.  I'm shallow, sue me!), but Gwen does not need to have a British accent and Lancelot certainly did not have a British accent, so how does that work exactly?

In a lot of the legends, Lancelot is foreign (French). He comes to Camelot because he's heard great things about Arthur and the way he's doing things, so him having a different accent works. If Gwen was a political marriage (again, common in tellings of the story), she's from another place, as well, and might have a different accent.

 

Though it's funny that they're being so specific about accents in casting when so far, accents have meant absolutely nothing. Rumple sounds Scottish-ish and Milah was British, but Bae sounded American and everyone around them sounded American, and yet there was no indication that they'd moved there from elsewhere (and Rumple refused to leave). Robin sounds British, Marian was American-sounding, and they live surrounded by American-sounding people. Hasn't Will been the only other Merry Man who sounds British? Then there are the random Australians in the middle of all the American-sounding people. But then there are Hook and Blackbeard, sounding British. No one seems to have noticed or cared that Hook has a "foreign" accent -- he doesn't act like and isn't treated like he's from another country. So the accent specification when so far characters having other accents has been meaningless is funny. I guess it's just for aesthetics because it would seem wrong for Arthur and Merlin to sound American, even if they're in another world entirely.

[orza]

The Arthurian legend is a very big deal for many people so they want actors with authentic British accents for the roles. Makes sense to me. I don't see a problem there.

 

Rumple doesn't have a Scottish accent. Robert Carlyle has said that he uses a variety of accents, depending on what period of Rumples 's life he is in and the particular scene and that can be clearly heard. If his natural accent comes through on a few words that is likely intentional.

 

It would be impractical to have all the other characters have typical accents. They would have to hire a lot of German actors since most of the fairy tales are Germanic in origin.

[Shanna Marie]

Rumple doesn't have a Scottish accent.

That's why I said "Scottish-ish." He's got a touch of a burr that keeps it from being entirely British. Just as Hook's accent has enough of a lilt to keep it from being truly British.

 

And it's not the accents themselves that are the issue. I don't want or expect all the Grimm-origin characters to sound German. But within their world, when people have vastly different accents, it should probably mean something about their origins and the society they came from. They're not going truly accent-neutral and just letting the actors use their native accents because there are actors doing accents that are different from their normal speaking voices -- non-Americans sounding American, etc. -- and now they're specifying particular accents for characters in casting, and yet so far accents have meant nothing on the show.

 

Going back to the ages, time period they're from, etc., question, since Snow and Charming knew Lancelot during the war against George and Regina, I think that pegs the Camelot story to that same time period. There's always the possibility that Merlin is a lot more ancient and that Hook ran into him in the past, but otherwise I'm afraid that the Camelot-related fairybacks will probably involve the usual suspects. Rumple is bound to pop in because of the gauntlet. I don't recall from the episode with Lancelot whether Snow was already familiar with him, and Charming stole the concept of the sword in the stone to give Snow a pep talk, so he must have heard about Camelot, so it's possible that Snow and Charming had some interaction with the Camelot gang at some point. Otherwise, I'm afraid that leaves Regina. Again. Or maybe Will or Robin tried to steal something from Camelot.

[KingOfHearts]

I find the British accent casting a little strange as well. Since Arthurian legend is famously British, it does fit with A&E's crazy stereotyping when it comes to westernized fairy tales. At this point, I don't think people care about authenticity with the Wicked Witch being ginger and Cruella being Dr. Doolittle.

[KAOS Agent]

 

I don't recall from the episode with Lancelot whether Snow was already familiar with him...

 

This is the dialog from their first meeting, so clearly Snow knew something about Camelot.

 

Lancelot: Name’s Lancelot.

Snow White: Lancelot? Of the Round Table?

Lancelot: Not anymore.

 

I was thinking that since it's this show maybe they are casting a black man as Merlin so that they could make him be related to Lancelot in some way. That could potentially set up conflict between Arthur & Merlin. I'm also rather hopeful that the Camelot casting implies Emma is not in Storybrooke, so she can be interacting with these guys. They can't just appear in flashbacks without connection and interaction to someone in the present day.

[formerlyfreedom]

Posts that were not spoilers have been moved.

 

Going forward, they may moved or deleted.

[Richard]

This is the dialog from their first meeting, so clearly Snow knew something about Camelot.

Lancelot: Name’s Lancelot.

Snow White: Lancelot? Of the Round Table?

Lancelot: Not anymore.

My memories murky on this... Did Snow first meet Lancelot post Cora-dome, in which case her knowledge of the round table might spring from Mary Margaret?

[Shanna Marie]

Did Snow first meet Lancelot post Cora-dome, in which case her knowledge of the round table might spring from Mary Margaret?

No, they met during the war, when David's mother was wounded and Lancelot was with them at Lake Nostos when they were trying to cure her (but she gave the water to Snow instead). Lancelot performed their impromptu wedding ceremony so David's mother could see them get married before she died.

 

The Lancelot they saw post Cora-dome was Cora in disguise, which is why there's speculation that Cora killed him. However, I don't think we ever saw a body.

[pezgirl7]

If Snow had met Lancelot earlier, then why does she say "Lancelot? Of the Round Table?" like she had never met him before? I'm seriously asking, because I don't remember much from the first two seasons.

[Shanna Marie]

If Snow had met Lancelot earlier, then why does she say "Lancelot? Of the Round Table?" like she had never met him before?

Didn't she say that when she met him with David during the war, not when she ran into Cora-as-Lancelot post-Coradome? I'm hazy, too, but I thought that line came during that fairyback. 

[pezgirl7]

Didn't she say that when she met him with David during the war, not when she ran into Cora-as-Lancelot post-Coradome? I'm hazy, too, but I thought that line came during that fairyback. 

 

Ahh ok, that makes MUCH more sense. :) Thank you!

[YaddaYadda]

Snow met Lancelot when he was working for King George. He took Snow to him because George wanted her to break it off with him so that he can go on and marry Abigail. Snow drank that potion that made her barren. Lancelot was known under another name that I can't recall just now though.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Lancelot was known under another name that I can't recall just now though.

Taking the answer to All Seasons.

Edited June 11, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Mathius]

Has this been posted yet?

http://www.enstarz.com/articles/91514/20150612/once-upon-a-time-season-5-news-michael-socha-no-longer-part-of-main-cast-before-new-episodes.htm

I am not surprised and not sure there will be much of a difference in his role other than the credits being honest about it rather than giving him a dishonest Regular title.

[formerlyfreedom]

Has this been posted yet?

http://www.enstarz.com/articles/91514/20150612/once-upon-a-time-season-5-news-michael-socha-no-longer-part-of-main-cast-before-new-episodes.htm

I am not surprised and not sure there will be much of a difference in his role other than the credits being honest about it rather than giving him a dishonest Regular title.

 

That should be discussed in Media topic, @Mathius.

[YaddaYadda]

Casting call for Rumple's mother

 

This makes me so very unhappy.  It'll pass, but it sucks.  Dear writers, still not likely to feel sorry for our dear Rumple.  Thanks!

Edited June 17, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[Emma]

Just what I wanted. More Rumple backstory. We haven't had enough of those.

[YaddaYadda]

Just what I wanted. More Rumple backstory. We haven't had enough of those.

Can never have enough Regina or Rumple back story.  Bringing in Belle's mother was useless...king Stefan, useless...Clearly, the show has money to spend.

 

I know, I'm going against my own no bitching policy, but I can't even get excited about this.  I really don't wanna go another "Poor Rumple" round.  If he was raised by the spinters, it's because his mother either left or died.  Ugh!

[Mathius]

Also, there's the whole thing about her being brave and selfless and how he failed to live up to that and instead ended up emulating his father and he'll be so sad when he realizes this and it'll be angsty and GAH, DON'T CARE.

[Curio]

I'm intrigued, but not necessarily giddy about the casting call. (The only thing that will make me leap out of my chair and squee like a fangirl is when the show finally gets around to introducing Killian's father AKA Davey Jones.) At least it's a character we know exists in the Once universe and wasn't pulled completely out of thin air. Since Rumple's dad ended up being someone important, I'm anticipating that the writers will end up making Rumple's mom to be someone important, too. Morgana? The Black Fairy? The Woman Who Lived in a Shoe?

 

So here's the parental character chart we now know of:

• Rumplestiltskin — Father: Malcolm (AKA Pan); Mother: Evanna
• Snow — Father: Leopold; Mother: Eva; Step-Mother: Regina
• Charming — Father: _______? (Some Drunkard); Quasi-Father: George; Mother: Ruth
• Emma — Father: Charming; Mother: Snow; Adoptive Parents: I forget their names, but we caught a glimpse of them in the flashback with Lily...and the Snow Queen 
• Regina — Father: Henry; Mother: Cora
• Neal/Baelfire — Father: Rumple; Mother: Milah
• Belle — Father: Moe; Mother: Colette
• Zelena — Father: Jonathan; Mother: Cora
• Henry — Father: Neal; Mother: Emma; Adoptive Mother: Regina
• Robin — Father: _______?; Mother: _______?
• Hook — Father: _______?; Mother: _______?

 

It's interesting that the writers decided to name Rumple's mother Evanna to a name similar to Snow's mother Eva. Oh god, they're going to be related, aren't they?

Edited June 17, 2015 by Curio

[Souris]

I'm so disgusted. Where's that Killian backstory they keep promising/lying to us about?

[KingOfHearts]

You mean to tell me Rumple's mother isn't Mary Poppins? I'm disappointed.

Her name seems to be a portmanteau of "Eva" and "Anna"... her personality seems to be a combination of the two as well. I wish she'd be an actual fairy tale character and not some generic identity like Belle's mom or Zelena's dad. She's the mother of freaking Rumplestiltskin and the lover of Peter Pan for goodness sake.

[YaddaYadda]

imbued with an unshakeable sense of self-confidence

 

This reminds me of another character who has a hook for a hand.  Though his self-confidence has been put under severe duress.  They wouldn't go there, would they?

[Serena]

Oh, I so can't wait to meet the woman who banged Peter Pan.

[RadioGirl27]

Casting call for Rumple's mother

Oh, look, more Rumple. I bet the next casting call is for Regina's third cousin from Camelot. Killian who?

(I'm sure I'm going to use this gif a lot this season)

Edited June 17, 2015 by RadioGirl27

[Serena]

Regina and Guineveve are gonna be related. Just wait.

[Shanna Marie]

her noble spirit stands in stark contrast to the now-dark soul of her offspring.

So we can expect to learn that she did something absolutely horrible (out of noble, but misguided intentions) that somehow doomed Rumple to be destined to become the Dark One, which means none of it is his fault, at all.

[RadioGirl27]

So we can expect to learn that she did something absolutely horrible (out of noble, but misguided intentions) that somehow doomed Rumple to be destined to become the Dark One, which means none of it is his fault, at all.

Probably. I mean, this "Emma is the new Dark One" seems destined to justify Rumple and his actions through the show ("see, it wasn't his fault, he is a pure cinnamon roll, the darkness made him do it").

 

With this news about Rumple's mom, we can assume episode 2 would be about him, with episode 1 being about Camelot.

Edited June 17, 2015 by RadioGirl27

[Lieutenant]

My first response to this casting call was complete apathy. Who cares about Rumples mother? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? And really, what minimal impact could she have had on Rumple's life? When we first seem him w/Malcomb, he looks all of 5 or 6. And we know those two had been on their own together for a significant time before that. I honestly just don't give a flying fairy fart about Rumple's past AS A TODDLER.

Yet my hopes for this upcoming season spring eternal. Damn you, show, and my addiction to Captain Swan. *headdesk*