Spoiler Discussion: The apple was poisoned?!

[retrograde]

People have speculated in the past about Robin being part of a Camelot plot. 

[Souris]

Some anon on katmtan's tumblr said Sean was doing ADR, not filming. Since it was an anon, take it FWIW and with a very large grain of salt.

 

According to katmtan, she's only heard of the following cast members at the wrap party, though it's apparently not a definitive list: JMo, Colin, Bex and Michael Socha. I'm bummed nobody has posted any pics from it.

[YaddaYadda]

So, what's ADR?

[retrograde]

Additional dialogue recording. Actors sometimes have to dub some lines in during post-production because what was recorded during filming was no good for some reason (mumbling, mic didn't pick it up properly, or it was just not delivered well, etc).

[Souris]

Yeah, sorry! It's a pretty common thing.

[mjgchick]

I get the feeling they did the Zelena= Marian for shock value at this point.

[Watt]

I don't care who else calls their "ship" a kindred spirit, there is just no way that Outlaw Queen fits the definition. As was explained to me many years ago by Anne Shirley, kindred spirits are people who share opinions, interests and outlooks.

Outlaw Queen are no doubt drawn to each other, but it has nothing to do with sharing a common opinion or interests. They rarely share those at all and frequently are extreme opposites. Disney Robin Hood and Maid Marian were kindred spirits. Robin Hood and Evil Queen are more like opposites attract.

I think we need to find some epic romances for Sean to compare Outlaw Queen too because he obviously hasn't paid any attention to Romance stories and is just throwing out names and terms he's heard. Could we compare them to Jane Eyre? Rochester has a wife that shows up and ruins his wedding to Jane. They get separated and eventually find their way back to each other. Granted Rochester goes blind and he's kind of a control freak, but there are elements there maybe? We are supposed to feel sorry for Rochester, but I always found him kind of creepy myself, but lots of people think their love is epic Or how about Scarlett and Rhett? She's a one man wrecking crew and he's a profitter. They squabble a lot, but were always meant to love each other, but are somewhat star-crossed. Scarlett is always chasing a Happy Ending, but would never lie around moaning like Regina. I still think Dr. Zhivago works too.

I love you for name dropping Anne Shirley.

Why do you hate Angel this much? He was so much more interesting (and better written) than Neal it's impossible to compare them. Now, I'd compare him to Xander if I had to, because I hate Xander and feel like his shitty behavior has never really been dealt with on the show (kinda like Neal), but I realize this is a very subjective opinion.

As for Spike, I think the best parallel is Regina, actually. Especially late seasons Spike.

Overall, I don't think that Once/Buffy mashup would work well because they are just too different. Now, I've seen somewhere a Once/Dragon Age Origins crossover, and this could be actually pretty fun, but I doubt there are many video gamers here.

Hello, my name is Jessica, and I have a Dragon Age tattoo.

(maybe not even joking. I have an astrarium constellation. True Story also, I love Solas. L

[ParadoxLost]

And also because it wasn't planned. The writers pulled this plot "twist" out of their butts five minutes before they wrote the script for this episode.

 

What has you so convinced of this?  I'm torn.

 

On one hand, I can see them getting enough flack over Regina and Robin that they decide to make Marian = Zelena in an attempt to fix it.  Its typical A&E to pretend something was planned all along so they can chide viewers for not seeing everything their way and jumping to conclusions without all the facts.  The idea that they didn't have this planned is supported by the fact that they could have made Robin and Regina much more sympathetic by making Robin's actions different and playing up hints that Marian is evil to the core and out to hurt Regina.

 

On the other hand, this would not be the first time A&E botched all the obvious plot points and characterizations in the story so they could pull out a 'surprising' twist.  They have a tendency to avoid setting up a story because they don't want the average viewer to see the twist coming.  Plus I think they get distracted by ideas or imagery (EQ kills a village) all the time and can't employ enough impulse control to avoid doing stuff that decimates their intended character development.

[FurryFury]

Hello, my name is Jessica, and I have a Dragon Age tattoo.

 

That's cool! I was just thinking that the parallels between DAO characters and Once character draw themselves (unlike BtVS). I mean, Charming/Alistair, Regina/Morrigan, Snow/Leliana (Snow was supposed to be a nun in the pilot, but it was later changed to a teacher), Rumple/Flemeth, Emma/PC... Seriously, if I wrote fanfiction, I'd definitely do a crossover.

(Oh, and I love Solas too! Kudos to a fellow fan)

 

Sorry for offtopic. I promise, I won't do it anymore.

 

What has you so convinced of this?  I'm torn.

 

Because I'm there would be SOMETHING to base this ass pull on if it were their original intention. And really, does this even make sense, from Zelena's POV? Why would she do something so ridiculously contrived if she could just blast Emma and Hook to oblivion, or turn into anybody else in the world? It's all so... uninspired and uninteresting I can't believe someone would plot this not as a last minute shocking swerve after reading OQ fans theories.

[MMR]

Robin's wife died years ago, he mourned her and years later moved on with his life with another woman. It's not his fault that someone brought her back from the past. It's been years since her death, he can't change his feelings again. He owes her nothing, she's dead, she doesn't exist anymore, but he still tried to be there fo her. On the other hand Hook is no better than Robin and Regina in adultery department. In fact he is even worst, because Robin and Regina tried to do the right thing but failed but Hook was gloating when Milah left her crippled husband and small child for him. Sickening.

[FurryFury]

He owes her nothing, she's dead, she doesn't exist anymore, but he still tried to be there fo her.

 

No, she's not dead. She's here. He could have said to her right there when he saw her - Honey, I loved you once and I still care for you and obviously Roland needs his mother, but I can't be together with you anymore, I love somebody else. But he didn't. He chose to try and build up their marriage... And promptly forgot about it and cheated on her with Regina while she was there in a coma. It's sickening.

 

I'm not Hook's biggest fan, but her never cheated on anyone (as far as we know). Milah made her own decision. She obviously didn't love Rumple anymore but couldn't bring herself to leave him until Hook appeared. It sucks that Bae lost his mother, but would it really be that great if she stayed in an unhappy marriage and hated herself and her husband for that? It's damned if you do, damned if you don't type of situation. Hook doesn't really have much to do with it, she could have left with anyone, really. He was a jerk to Rumple, yeah, but that's it.

[Crimson Belle]

And Robin had just a few episodes/days before waxed poetic about his great love for Marian, letting us see through his emotions how much he loved her.

And, he went back to her, rekindled some sort of relationship that was presented as a family unit and then promptly slept with Regina while Marian/Zelena thinks he's committed to her. That's adultery if he relationship isn't resolved first.

[Curio]

Looks like Adam had to help clarify what Eddy actually meant in that interview.
 

Robin's wife died years ago, he mourned her and years later moved on with his life with another woman. It's not his fault that someone brought her back from the past. It's been years since her death, he can't change his feelings again. He owes her nothing, she's dead, she doesn't exist anymore, but he still tried to be there fo her. On the other hand Hook is no better than Robin and Regina in adultery department. In fact he is even worst, because Robin and Regina tried to do the right thing but failed but Hook was gloating when Milah left her crippled husband and small child for him. Sickening.

 
Off the to Relationships Thread again...

Edited April 9, 2015 by Curio

[worryfaraway]

So what is Zelena still doing after being arrested??

 

No spoilers about Will & Anastatia? My hope has faded.

[Rumsy4]

Looks like Adam had to help clarify what Eddy actually meant in that interview.

Yeah, right! Adam sounds like a PR person trying to cover up his client's dundering press statements. lol

[YaddaYadda]

Yeah, they really should stay away from answering questions.  They write the show, they should know better.  

[Serena]

Mwahaha. We should write an Eddy's PR FuckUps Index. Does this rank higher or lower than "Rumple and Cora are soulmates" on the EPRFU Scale?

[Zuleikha]

Because I'm there would be SOMETHING to base this ass pull on if it were their original intention. And really, does this even make sense, from Zelena's POV?

 

It could make sense depending on the details. When Rumple killed her body, we saw green smoke leave her necklace. I think most people watching expected that to mean Zelena's spirit was still alive and she wasn't dead (or at least, my spouse and I both did). Then the Captain Swan Time Travel Adventures happened and it seemed like maybe it didn't mean that. But if it did, Zelena needed a way to get back in time. So if was following Hook/Emma and took over Marian's identity as a way to get Emma to bring her (Zelena) forward in time, it makes sense. Then a lot of stuff happened very quickly and she didn't have much time to figure out what she wanted to do, much less make a big move. She didn't have her necklace (can't remember if it was destroyed when the smoke left or if it's still in Regina's vault), so Zelena's not nearly as strong as she was in 3B. Without her necklace, presumably any of Elsa, Ingrid, Emma, Regina could take her and certainly Rumple could.

[Rumsy4]

As Zelena seems to have shape-shifted into Marian, it seems likely that she had magic. Her purposes would have been better served if she remained in the past, and undermined Regina. Even if her original dumb plan to kill Eva had failed, she could inflict maximum damage in a time and place where Regina could not wield Light Magic. Emma kidnapping her to the present, followed by Ingrid's spell threw her plans, and she had to adapt. Her new plan to steal Regina's bf and go to the Real World seems weird. But I'm sure there will be some crazy explanation for that.

[YaddaYadda]

See, this is what I'm sort of fighting with right now with this whole Marian/Zelena thing.

 

Zelena takes possession of Marian's body in the past and is brought forth to the present/future/whatever.  So doesn't that mean that there's a whole timeline where Zelena is unaccounted for in the past?  I don't know if this is even clear.  Snowing meet in the Emma/Hook time travel adventure and the book changes.  Zelena has actual scenes with Marian while Marian is wearing her prisoner outfit, so she might've killed the woman at some point to hitch a ride to the present/future.  Zelena by following Emma and Hook could've found out a lot of things about those two, about Snowing, the whole true love thing and she could have used that knowledge in the thing she did during the missing year,  And this is where I get super confused.  Snowing meet some what 2-3 years before the dark curse is cast?  If Zelena hitches a right with Emma and Hook, then  she's no longer in the timeline of the past, so how does she go back to do all the stuff she did?  Does she resuscitate in the Enchanted Forest because magic is more potent there?  There are a lot of things they never took the time to answer when it comes to Zelena.  She has spies in all the realms who report back to her.  She had someone spying on Hook, someone who reported back to her what went down with Ariel, but that's still Enchanted Forest territory.  But how did Walsh get to Emma?  He was in Oz and so was Zelena before she went to the EF.  How did she get there and how did Walsh get there and how in the world could he become an flying monkey in the LwM?  Ingrid who was born magical could not do magic in the LwM when she tried with that fortune teller.  Walsh was not magical, he was just good with tricks and Dorothy had the slippers.

 

As I said, I'm uber confused by all of this, likely overthinking it since the writers probably didn't.  I'm sure I'll be still scratching my head after Sunday.  The whole 3B was so very poorly thought out.  This is so much worst than Lost.  When I watch a show, I expect answers, not more questions.

 

I smell some serious fuckery coming up with this whole plot.

[YaddaYadda]

JMo tweeted that a picture of the last sunrise from her morning flight (for the next 3 months).  Here

 

I'm assuming she just left Vancouver, so maybe she was still doing stuff for the show until yesterday?

[Zuleikha]

As Zelena seems to have shape-shifted into Marian, it seems likely that she had magic. Her purposes would have been better served if she remained in the past, and undermined Regina.

She may have had magic, but she can't have the extra-powerful magic enhancement that the necklace gave her because she doesn't have it. She just has the run-of-the-mill magic she was born with, which isn't stronger than Regina or Rumple. Given that Regina is in full-on Evil Queen heartless ruthlessness and Zelena's stuck in a timeline where there's no gain to her for messing with it, it makes sense to me that she'd rather get back to the future and try and wreak havoc on Regina there.

 

Zelena takes possession of Marian's body in the past and is brought forth to the present/future/whatever.  So doesn't that mean that there's a whole timeline where Zelena is unaccounted for in the past?

I don't think so. At most, shouldn't that just mean Zelena's body (possibly with Marian's consciousness?) is unaccounted for in the past? Zelena-in-Marian or Zelena-as-Marian is in the future.

[Rumsy4]

So doesn't that mean that there's a whole timeline where Zelena is unaccounted for in the past?

 

I believe the Zelena who shapeshifted into Marian was the time-travelling essence of Zelena who somehow acquired a corporeal form in the past (or maybe simply took over Marian's body). (Wow, that sentence was a doozy). So, there is the original time-line Zelena in Oz, while the time-travelling Zelena is in the EF with Emma and Hook. Thus the original time-line is still intact. 

Edited April 9, 2015 by Rumsy4

[FurryFury]

Mwahaha. We should write an Eddy's PR FuckUps Index. Does this rank higher or lower than "Rumple and Cora are soulmates" on the EPRFU Scale?

 

Rumple and Cora were totally a better example of soulmates than Rumbelle, and the writing as of right now seems to prove it. Both loved power more than anything else in the world.

 

As Zelena seems to have shape-shifted into Marian, it seems likely that she had magic. Her purposes would have been better served if she remained in the past, and undermined Regina.

 

Exactly! She was probably the strongest mage except for maybe Rumple (and possibly stronger than him). She could have gone straight to Regina's castle and kill her or enslave her and impersonate her (now that would be something in character for Zelena). Not this pathetic charade with Robin and Marian.

[HoodlumSheep]

Forever confused on how Walsh could turn into a monkey, and how Zelena's magic didn't stop working when she crossed the town line (whether she shape-shifted or just her essence is clinging to Marian).

[Rumsy4]

Rumple and Cora were totally a better example of soulmates than Rumbelle, and the writing as of right now seems to prove it. Both loved power more than anything else in the world.

 

I agree. Rumple and Cora connected on a level Rumple and Belle never did. 

 

 

She may have had magic, but she can't have the extra-powerful magic enhancement that the necklace gave her because she doesn't have it. She just has the run-of-the-mill magic she was born with, which isn't stronger than Regina or Rumple. 

 

That's not what we were shown though. Zelena was more powerful than Regina even before she acquired the necklace. That's why I think being brought back to the present, where she had been easily defeated by the light-magic wielding Regina, was not part of Zelena's plans. Of course, this is complicated by the fact that the original timeline Zelena was in Oz. Maybe Time-travel!Zelena planned to go to Oz and merge with her other self or something. :-p

Edited April 9, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Serena]

Yeah, if I were Zelena and went back to the past, I would NOT have gone along with going back to the present. Even assuming she couldn't confront Rumple and Regina head on because they were more powerful, she could have at least gone to kill Robin, just for kicks. Then with her knowledge of the future, she could have wrecked havoc on the past. She could have stopped Regina from doing the Dark Curse... maybe by killing her father. I'm sure she would have thought of something. Or, since at that point in the past her necklace hadn't been destroyed yet, she could have gone to retrieve it.

[legaleagle53]

I believe the Zelena who shapeshifted into Marian was the time-travelling essence of Zelena who somehow acquired a corporeal form in the past (or maybe simply took over Marian's body). (Wow, that sentence was a doozy). So, there is the original time-line Zelena in Oz, while the time-travelling Zelena is in the EF with Emma and Hook. Thus the original time-line is still intact. 

 

Careful -- Grandfather Paradox knows when you've been naughty.  The penalty is that your head will explode!

Edited April 9, 2015 by legaleagle53

[KingOfHearts]

Could the Zarian switch happen while Marian was frozen in the crypt, since that's where the pendant was? Was Marian's body "vacant" when it was heartless, so Zelena's spirit took it? Maybe she switched the heart with a decoy?

I can only imagine Zelena taking Marian's body if she was absolutely forced to. She hates being subtle, which is what would be required if it were her plan.

Edited April 9, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Souris]

There is still absolutely nothing that makes sense to me about Zelena-being-Marian in the past. Nothing that she did as Marian makes any logical sense if she was really Zelena. What, her plan was to get herself captured before Hook & Emma arrived and then paraded in front of Hook & Emma, somehow knowing that Emma would be thrown into the cell next to hers and manage to pick the lock. Then she would be such a good actress that she would tell Regina she wasn't a monster, and later give Regina and Robin her blessing? And have a lovely pure heart? Yeah, NO.

 

I could maybe squint, hold my nose and smother some brain cells with a pillow in order to accept that her essence took over Marian while she was frozen in the present.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Souris

[YaddaYadda]

Sneak Peek 2

 

Robin, Marian and Dimples arrive in NYC.  Dimples complains that it's very noisy.  Robin tells Marian that they will be going to Baelfire's apartment, Regina gave him the keys (huh?  What?) Marian's purse gets stolen when she puts it down to pick up Roland.  Robin gives chase on a horse, catches up with the guy and tells the thief to never take from people in need.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Robin, Marian and Dimples arrive in NYC.  Dimples complains that it's very noisy.

This scene just highlighted how ridiculous it is for the Hoods to be moving to New York of all places. Love how Neal's apartment is perpetually a checkpoint for characters visiting NYC. How did Marian know Baelfire and that he lived there for many years?

Edited April 9, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

If Regina gave Robin the keys to Neal's NYC apartment, why did she need Emma to find him? 

[Serena]

Did Neal buy a NYC apartment while being on the run from the feds, having sketchy ID, and no employable skills? Did no one think the Hoods should have stayed in a small, less expansive town near Maine? Why are the writers so frickin' dumb?

Edited April 9, 2015 by Serena

[YaddaYadda]

And Neal lives in SoHo, do you know how expensive a place there is?  How much money did Regina give Robin?  Did she also  give them legal documents?

 

Why am I asking all these questions?  I already know the answers.

Edited April 9, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[Curio]

Seriously. Here's a couple living off an ​extremely limited income and no real world experience...so let's send them to the busiest city in the world, one of the most expensive cities to live in, and give them the keys to a guy's apartment where he probably hasn't paid rent in months. I'd laugh if they opened the apartment only to find some other people living in it already.

 

And the list of ridiculous reasons why Regina and Robin couldn't stay in touch over the past six weeks continues to grow. So not only could she have emailed him or given him Ingrid's scroll, but she actually knew the exact location of where he was living and could have sent a letter? But she suddenly needs Emma to find where he is? Did something happen over the six weeks where Regina found out he moved locations? I'm so confused.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Curio

[pezgirl7]

And why didn't Rumple stay in Neal's apartment when he was in NYC? He knew where it was located, and probably could have broken in. Unless he did go there, and finds Robin living there, which starts Rumple using Robin to do whatever it is that he needs done.

[YaddaYadda]

This whole New York thing that we're shown in the sneak peek is not happening in real time though, is it?  We know that Robin is in NYC because of Rumple and that plot point.  Robin is the 3rd person Rumple was seeking out, so Robin is in NYC at the same time Robin is, they share scenes together.  I don't think Regina wanted to contact Robin, I think she wanted him to contact her from what I gathered in 412.

 

The one thing this show is good at is cutting corners.

[Mari]

Why am I asking all these questions?  I already know the answers.

Because hope is the most powerful thing there is? (And you, like many of us, are in its thrall?)

I'm still desperately hoping that Zelena's essence jumped into Marian while the pendant and Marian's heart were in the crypt. Possibly using the crypt sex as a power source.

I am deluded. I know this. I'm still hoping.

[YaddaYadda]

Possibly using the crypt sex as a power source.

 

Must be some orgasm, then.  Yeah, I know.  I'm gonna go bleach my brain or something.

[sharky]

And why didn't Rumple stay in Neal's apartment when he was in NYC? He knew where it was located, and probably could have broken in. Unless he did go there, and finds Robin living there, which starts Rumple using Robin to do whatever it is that he needs done.

Maybe he couldn't stay there because Regina had the keys and he didn't. Which brings up the next issue: Why the hell does Regina have the keys to Neal's apartment? I could understand Emma or Gold or Hook -- after all, that would explain where Hook was staying when he was tracking down Emma. But Regina? Really? Is this like Henry had them and gave them to her or something? Weirdness.

[Mari]

Must be some orgasm, then. Yeah, I know. I'm gonna go bleach my brain or something.

I don't blame you.

I just think it would be a nice karma for Robin's staying with Marian flip flop, and after all, if true love kisses can break curses, and this is a super special soulmate bond, even bad to mediocre sex should have some possible power.

We don't have to see it; Zelena can make a snide comment or two. She's good at that.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Mari

[Zuleikha]

Hook showed Emma Neal's apartment, didn't he? Maybe Hook provided the keys. Regina handed Robin the bundle of material to get the Hoods established, so it would be reasonable shorthand for Robin to just say it all came from Regina. 

[YaddaYadda]

Emma broke into the apartment actually.  

[OnceUponAJen]

Yes, it would have been convenient if when Neal broke free from his Dark One bond with Rumple, he not only attached a note and the memory potion to that bird's leg, but also his apartment keys. :)

Edited April 9, 2015 by OnceUponAJen

[Shanna Marie]

Maybe the keys were in Neal's stuff in his old room at Granny's, brought back by curse 2. Or Regina found them in Gold's shop.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I'm still desperately hoping that Zelena's essence jumped into Marian while the pendant and Marian's heart were in the crypt. Possibly using the crypt sex as a power source.

I'm wondering how much was being kept in Wizard of Oak. I'm assuming the Elixir of the Wounded Heart is in there. See, what I don't get is how Zelena gets her body back. Can magic people really conjure up empty bodies? That's a bit... morbid. I'm wondering if something in the furniture shop triggers Zelena's essence and gives her the ability to get out of Marian's heart.

 

If the essence + heart thing is where they go, I can definitely tolerate this twist. Zelena better be back for more than a freaking cameo, though. If they're going to manipulate the whole plot to bring back a "dead" character, I want payoff. Oh my. I'm deluded too!

Edited April 9, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

Come to think of it, how would Regina even know Neal had an apartment? She wasn't on the New York trip. Was there this whole offscreen scene in which Regina talked to Emma about the situation and Emma offered the apartment? Who's paying rent on that place?

 

Logic has left the building.

[Zuleikha]

Emma broke into the apartment actually.

There goes that attempt to make things make sense! 

 

Now I'm imagining a scenario in which Emma gives Regina the directions to the apartment as a place the Hoods can rest, group, and figure out what they want to do in this new, non-magical world... Robin breaks into the apartment (because thief) and finds Gold lounging around. 

[YaddaYadda]

There goes that attempt to make things make sense!

 

Welcome to the Spoiler thread where grey hairs are a guarantee!