Spoiler Discussion: The apple was poisoned?!

[KingOfHearts]

Emma: Why are they after us?

Snow: Because we're the heroes and they're the villains.

That's a very non-Snow response, I think. I would much more expect Charming to say something like that. I guess going after Baby Do Over could push Snow to a darker place, justifiably, but it seems like a quick pivot away from 'It's ok to sleep with married men, Regina - yay for you! happy ending!' Maybe it will make more sense in context ... ok, no, probably not, TS:TW.

They're not Regina. That's why. Snow never gives a crap about a villain unless it's Regina. Rumple doesn't even register to her unless she needs to make a deal in a flashback.

I love the idea of regal Maleficent holding Snowflake in their house. It's just so creepy and dark. Snow's plea to not hurt her family sounds to me like they had some sort of deal and now its time to collect... Or Snow did soneting horrible to Maleficent and now she's back for rightful retribution.

[Shanna Marie]

The way they talk about heroes and villains, it's like they're sports teams, and all it takes to change teams is to put on a different jersey. They seem to have lost all sense of the fact that those labels are about actions and attitudes, and that it's behavior that puts you in one column or another.

 

I've changed my mind about whether early pirate Killian would have done something bad to Ursula. The young man we saw throwing his uniform in the ocean and torching the Pegasus sail had flat-out snapped. He was being wildly irrational and rash. Meanwhile, Lt. Jones was also something of a hardass, with some very rigid views about behavior. So, take a rigid, disciplined hardass being fueled by rage and grief, and give him a target, and you've got the potential for some epic ruthless intensity. I can imagine him maybe using Ursula as a way to destroy his former king without caring what the effects would be on her. He did tell Emma that he went to a very dark place after his brother's death, and he told Pan that if he lost his brother he'd have lost everything and would have nothing left. A man who has nothing to lose is a very, very dangerous man.

 

Then if he did succeed in bringing down the king, or at least crippled his navy enough that he lost the war, that kind of success in a very young man could have led to the cocky arrogance and swagger we saw in our first glimpse of pirate Killian. He'd no longer have had that all-consuming goal, and he wouldn't really have had anything else in his life to give him direction, so he could have fallen into a bit of dissipation, taking what he could take and living for the moment. The result is the frat boy we see in "The Crocodile."

 

It would be interesting if we got to see the transition -- maybe the moment when he put on the black leather coat and started to look and act like a pirate. I don't think that would have been immediate. He might have shed the trappings of the military without immediately going shopping at the Pirate Store for his wardrobe.

 

Oh dear, now I'm raising my expectations again. I should know better.

[KingOfHearts]

 

There's another script tease on Adam's twitter because apparently we haven't had enough spoilers of Emma sucking up to Regina this episode -_-

This isn't a friendship, fellas. My only explanation is that Emma still feels guilty about the Marian thing. That's really the only reason for her to still be acting this way. Regina has made it very clear she does not want her friendship nor her encouragement. It's sad when even the psycho knows its a dumb idea.

 

 

Also Regina looks slightly insane when she says "it's time. to change. the book." Is the Evil Queen about to make a full-on return to her natural state? ;)

Regina said this in 4x01. It's old footage. 

Edited March 1, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

"Pirate Store" now that is something I'd like to see! Where DO pirates find all that leather?

I suppose the "Pirate Store" is all other ships on the sea, since real pirates don't go shopping. They steal what they want. They get the pirate "look" by combining pieces in a unique way. Hook's coat looks like something a flamboyantly wealthy merchant might wear (without the eyeliner, weapons and jewelry), so I could imagine him starting his one-man war piracy career in elements of his military uniform, gradually replacing uniform pieces with pieces he's plundered, until the big moment when he takes the leather coat off the wealthy merchant whose ship he's just taken.

 

Or else it was Ursula's coat and he stole it from her, and that's the horrible thing he did to her in the past.

[KingOfHearts]

https://twitter.com/OnceABC/status/572105871263592448

 

This video previewing the Secrets of Storybrooke special briefly shows a scene with Robin talking to Rumple in his library in a flashback.

[retrograde]

Dear Adam, this is how you do fun but not super revealing spoiler tweets:

 

Matt Mitovich @MattMitovich
Rumplestiltskin eating microwaved ramen noodles. You get that tonight.

 

[retrograde]

Canadagraphs (who is a pap, so if you don't want to give his site the traffic, don't click) has posted some BTS photos from the Steveston filming in late January. His description:

 

First up was a scene that had just Jennifer Morrison in it. The scene had her character Emma Swan run out into the middle of the street (seriously, the amount of times I see someone in Storybrooke just out randomly in the middle of the street is concerning. How are there not more accidental hit & runs?) and she clearly sees something upsetting. There was a couple takes prior to the scene where she seemed to be reacting to something that forced her to the ground...but I don't know what that was about since she never seemed to do it without her winter jacket on.

 

Later, they moved to the dock and had a scene where Jennifer & Colin O'Donoghue shot a scene as Emma & Captain Hook sharing a hug. The body language of the scene did not come across as an excited, happy to see you hug, but more of a sympathetic, "it will be ok" type hug.

[Writing Wrongs]

In the promo for next episode, it shows Snow and David meeting the trio. Doesn't that contradict Charming going to Maleficent's castle and confronting her in Season 1? He didn't seem to know her then.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Writing Wrongs

[KingOfHearts]

 

In the promo for next episode, it shows Snow and David meeting the trio. Doesn't that contradict Charming going to Maleficent's castle and confronting her in Season 1? He didn't seem to know her then.

More than likely they met the Evil Trio later, since Snow and Charming were seldom together before the glass coffin. Also, if the dark secret has to do with Emma like what's been implied, they've probably already married.

[retrograde]

Here is the Canadian promo.

[Souris]

Am I the only one who heard Eddy say "Hook dies at the end of Act One" in the writers' room at the 47-minute mark of the Welcome to Storybrooke special?

[shoregirl]

I heard it.I thought he was joking. I think someone made a similar comment when someone asked what to do with Hook and Emma and off camera someone says "kill them". At least I hope he was kidding. I can't see them doing something like that right after Rumple almost crushed his heart.

Edited March 2, 2015 by shoregirl

[KingOfHearts]

 

Here is the Canadian promo.

Apparently Maleficent holding Snowflake was just a dream... *sad face*

 

That looks like the enchanted tree at 0:09.

Edited March 2, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

Apparently Maleficent holding Snowflake was just a dream... *sad face*

 

It makes sense though.  It means that they're in preemptive strike mode.  She has the nightmare, decides to go and destroy Maleficent's ashes.  

[RadioGirl27]

Am I the only one who heard Eddy say "Hook dies at the end of Act One" in the writers' room at the 47-minute mark of the Welcome to Storybrooke special?

I doubt they would spoil something so big so easily. It was probably a joke to make Hook fans freak out and the haters enjoy it.

On the other hand, if they kill him Colin would be free to find a better role, and I would be free to stop watching.

Edited March 2, 2015 by RadioGirl27

[Mari]

Did anyone get a good look at Cruella's husband?  I know we briefly considered Cruella being Lily's mother or stepmother--is that still a possibility?

[YaddaYadda]

I still think she's Paige/Grace's mother.  

[scenicbyway]

Ok, Snow and Charming's secret:

 

a.  They gave up their first born child "Lily" in exchange for some kind of protection from QOD.  My guess would be that Cruella raised "Lily" initially.

 

b.  They kidnapped "Lily" from the QOD and sent her through in the wardrobe on a test run, not knowing that Gepetto had done the same with Pinocchio.

 

c.  Maybe QOD gets Babysnowflake?  Maybe they agreed to give away their first born son?

 

It seems like it has to be more personal for Emma to have the heart with the greatest possibility for evil.  I guess I don't understand why she's the lightest magic of the light but then can be the darkest too.  Regina switches back and forth but only when Robin's around.

[YaddaYadda]

So the beast went after Maleficent in the flashback, does that mean Maleficent was like Emma once?  I mean there has to be a reason it zeroed in on her.

 

I mean we are getting her backstory in two weeks.  I'm sure she was all laughs, sunshine and giggles before Stefan fucked up her life somehow.

[retrograde]

TV Line's recap included a few actual quotes from A&E: 
 

What could the righteous marrieds possibly be hiding? In slowly revealing this secret, “The goal is to deepen who they are, and take what we’ve already presented and present another layering,” shares Once co-creator Adam Horowitz. With the first hint at the secret to come next Sunday, he says, “Our hope is that by the time everything is revealed, you’ll see it really informs who they were in Season 1.”

Co-creator Eddy Kitsis echoes that the eventual reveal is about “character motivation,” in that once Season 4B has ended, “you will go back and look at the series in a different way.”

 

I have a lot of trouble believing this was planned from season 1, but okay.

[Mari]

“Our hope is that by the time everything is revealed, you’ll see it really informs who they were in Season 1.”

Co-creator Eddy Kitsis echoes that the eventual reveal is about “character motivation,” in that once Season 4B has ended, “you will go back and look at the series in a different way.”

 

 

Okay, in the Canadian promo, Maleficent sounds extra vicious about the baby--and if Snow's having nightmare's about that--and "you will go back and look at the series in a different way.", there's definitely a child tied into their secret.

 

Is it possible they stole a child from Maleficent?  (If so, I'm assuming Lily)  I'm not sure what they'd need a baby for, but apparently babies are used in the Enchanted Forest for all sorts of spells--looking at you, Nealflake--that don't necessarily kill the baby.  Or they could have used the baby to pay off someone, like Rumple.

 

(I should probably just avoid any Once interview with A&E or Parilla.  I always come away frustrated and wanting to yell at them.)

Edited March 2, 2015 by Mari

[sharky]

 

I guess I don't understand why she's the lightest magic of the light but then can be the darkest too.  Regina switches back and forth but only when Robin's around.

I've had no problem with this actually. The way I figure it is you can't have the highest high without the possibility of the lowest low. Emma has shown to have a talent for magic that even Regina is astonished by. So if she has the power to have the whitest of white magic, she has the power to go the opposite way as well in a way that no one else can. I kind of equate it to Anakin Skywalker -- and we know how much A&E love Star Wars. Anakin had a level of the Force that was astonishing. He could've been an amazing Jedi and brought peace. But instead, he was persuaded to use his ability for darkness and quickly became Darth Vader once he chose the dark side. Emma is this season's Anakin Skywalker. So um...I think that makes Hook her Obi Wan Kenobi maybe?

 

I'm sure A&E are ret-conning the season 1 connection, but I wonder if there's something there. Could Lily be the daughter of Charming and Katherine or Mary Margaret and someone else? Or if it's season 1, there could easily be a connection to Maleficent? We haven't gotten an explanation yet on how the QOD were brought to this world. If they were taken by the curse, why didn't they end up in Storybrooke? And would that explain how someone like Lily could also be from the Enchanted Forest and yet didn't end up in Storybrooke?

[KingOfHearts]

Maybe Maleficent used to be a powerful, light magic being like Emma, probably a fairy. (Thus the "potential for darkness") Then somehow Snow and Charming got her kicked out and she went dark? Like they stole something she was supposed to protect or something? They seem to be doing some sort of ritual in the CTV promo.

Edited March 2, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[retrograde]

My interpretation of the "greatest potential for darkness" was that Emma has had the shittiest life and thus the most reason to say, "You know what? Eff this." But hmm, maybe it is because she has the most powerful magic.

[LizaD]

No I think it just means that whenever Chernabog is around a group of people he zeroes in on the one with the darkest heart of that group. So of the trio, Mal has it but put Mal in with Emma and Storybrooke and it'll go after Emma. I don't think it means that Mal is similar to Emma. I think it was just a clunky way to show what Chernabog's purpose was, to show that Mal is the baddest of the trio and for the "shocking" Emma reveal. I do remember them saying Ursula was the least evil, Mal was the most and Cruella is the grey one. But it's hard to know what they mean when their view is so warped. For all we know A&E speak for Mal being the "most evil" means she has the sobbiest tragic story.

 

As for Charmings' secret, seems like they actively screwed Mal over but Cruella and Ursula knows about it. This fits in with Mal being the most evil cause those damn White/Charming line, so evil they created evil.

 

After last night and the writers saying we'll meet the author, I'm convinced the Author is Lily. I don't think we'll get to meet the Sorcerer or they'll save him for some other time.

[YaddaYadda]

My interpretation of the "greatest potential for darkness" was that Emma has had the shittiest life and thus the most reason to say, "You know what? Eff this." But hmm, maybe it is because she has the most powerful magic.

Yeah, she can go eff this after she finds out what it is her that her parents have done.  Maybe not wanting to be around her parents and not wanting to talk to them weakens her because she has doubts about them.

 

Sort of goes back to that line we had in Bleeding Through where Emma says she thought their family was the good guys (after Cora showed Snow what she wanted her to see of course).  

 

Let's put it this way.  The show after last night has managed to get my full attention about this secret, how Emma will feel and her potential decent.

[retrograde]

No I think it just means that whenever Chernabog is around a group of people he zeroes in on the one with the darkest heart of that group.

But it isn't supposed to be the darkest heart at that moment, but rather the heart with the most potential for darkness, right? So the question is: what do they mean by "potential"? Most powerful? Most pent up resentment? Or is there something just inherently dark within Emma that hasn't been unleashed yet?

 

Lily may factor into the Snowing thing, but I don't think she will be the daughter of any main character, as she's only sticking around a few episodes. 

Edited March 2, 2015 by retrograde

[YaddaYadda]

But it isn't supposed to be the darkest heart at that moment, but rather the heart with the most potential for darkness, right? So the question is: what do they mean by "potential"? Most powerful? Most pent up resentment? Or is there something just inherently dark within Emma that hasn't been unleashed yet?

 

Can't resentment also turn someone?  I mean the whole thing we got with Ingrid and Emma at the station and Emma's reaction to her words?  If that's not resentment and anger that came through, then I don't know what is.  And that had nothing to do with her magic perse, but how fucked up her life was because she is the Savior, a title Emma doesn't really want, still doesn't understand the meaning of and how her parents perceive her.  She was pulled out of a life she liked to be the Savior.  

 

Whatever it is that went down all those years ago and how it affects Emma probably to the extent where she will feel betrayed plus that whole conversation that NEVER happened regarding the things that Ingrid said, the Echo Cave speech?  Maybe they are building Emma's resentment towards her parents.

 

It seems that Hook and Regina are the ones who will be pulling Emma from the brink.

 

Emma is leaving Storybrooke with apparently no goodbyes for her parents.  I know we don't know that this will happen, but still...

[retrograde]

So I assume the scroll Regina was holding when she and Emma said goodbye at the town hall is the Snow Queen's, so they can get back into town. The fact that she was holding it (as opposed to just having it in her handbag or something) makes me think they will definitely lose it or it will get stolen. 

[YaddaYadda]

Guess we'll find out tomorrow since they're filming at Steveston.

[retrograde]

I'm pretty sure that will still be 4.19, though (it's usually 10 working days an episode plus Adam usually tweets the new script title the day before filming starts). I think 4.20 should start filming on Thursday-ish. 

Edited March 2, 2015 by retrograde

[LizaD]

 

But it isn't supposed to be the darkest heart at that moment, but rather the heart with the most potential for darkness, right?

I don't think it's mutually exclusive. Someone meeting that potential doesn't take away the fact that they had that capacity or potential in the first place? I don't think he was looking for "virgins" only. I don't know. It's hard to speculate with these writers because they don't hold to any rules. The more interesting thing would be if you put Emma and Rump together who it would go after. But I have a feeling Emma's got the bullseye not because it's an indicator or her power as a sorcerer or even her potential to go evil. I think it has to do with the source of her magic. Think about it, from the premise we were told that Emma had magic because she's a product of true love and true love is the most powerful magic of all but I think they're rewriting that history.

 

A&E even said the difference between Emma's magic and Woegina's was that Emma's been around good magicians and Woegina's been around the bad ones no? Yeah we know that's complete bull but let's go with it. That to me means they're saying Emma doesn't inherently have white magic.

 

Also in that promo you see Charming and Snow put their hands up against the rock and it has some sort of hand print on it. I don't know if that's a callback to Emma's hand print burning the wood when her magic went out of wack or it's just a coincidence.

[retrograde]

Well I guess it also depends on what they mean by "darkness." I was assuming they meant "dark actions," as in Emma has the potential to do some really evil stuff if she was so compelled to/chose to, even though right now she has not done anything evil. But yeah, it may be more like "just holding a lot of bad feelings in her heart."

[kili]

Also in that promo you see Charming and Snow put their hands up against the rock and it has some sort of hand print on it. I don't know if that's a callback to Emma's hand print burning the wood when her magic went out of wack or it's just a coincidence.

 

When I saw that, all I could think of is that thing at Disneyland California where you put your hand on a hand-print in the cave and it tells you what your spirit animal is (repeat until you get the animal you wanted).  IDK whre Disney got the idea from (other than meditating in a cave is supposed to help you realize what your spirit animal is), but maybe we are finally going to get some Native American folklore. I'm not sure I would trust them not to offend somebody with that though.

 

I have to say that is one of the fakest looking rocks I have ever seen. They do have rocks in Vancouver. Couldn't they have used a real rock? Maybe it is one of those fake rocks you hide a key in. But it's a little big, so it's probably one of those used for hiding the poolside speakers (Skymall, page 12). Maybe they invited the QoD trio over for a dip in their hot tub and then put in some elker setzel to prank them.

 

I just can't take "Snow and Charming" are evil thing seriously. It stinks too much of "Eau de Ret-Con".

[sharky]

Maybe they're just recycling the gravestones for Anna and Elsa's parents. ;)

[KingOfHearts]

 

Maybe they're just recycling the gravestones for Anna and Elsa's parents. ;)

You know, tight budget and all. Can't have expensive things like realistic rocks, a house for Emma or good PhotoShop marketers. There's CGI beasts and pineapples to think about here.

Edited March 2, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Bluerang1]

It's looking likely that my guess that Lily is the author will be true. But the star fits in more with the Sorcerer though. I hope the Charmings didn't do anything horrid to Maleficent because when she was with Regina in S1 she didn't seem to care about them. That messes up with continuity. 

[retrograde]

Press release, apparently:

THE CHARMINGS ARE PAWNS IN THE QUEENS’ PLANS, ON ABC’S “ONCE UPON A TIME”

 

“Unforgiven” – David and Mary Margaret suspect Cruella and Ursula have come to Storybrooke looking for something more than their own happy endings – something that threatens to reveal a secret they thought was long buried. Emma begins her own investigation of Cruella and Ursula, but she can’t shake the feeling that her friends and family are keeping something from her. Regina and Henry continue their search for the Author, turning to Pinocchio and Marco in the hope Pinocchio might remember a clue that will help them. Meanwhile, in a flashback to Fairy Tale Land, Snow and Charming cross paths with the Queens of Darkness as the threat of the Evil Queen’s Dark Curse hangs over all of them on “Once Upon a Time,” SUNDAY, MARCH 8 (8:00-9:00 p.m., ET) on the ABC Television Network.

 

“Once Upon a Time” stars Ginnifer Goodwin as Snow White/Mary Margaret, Jennifer Morrison as Emma Swan, Lana Parrilla as the Evil Queen/Regina, Josh Dallas as Prince Charming/David Nolan, Emilie de Ravin as Belle, Colin O’Donoghue as Hook, Jared S. Gilmore as Henry, Michael Socha as Will Scarlet and Robert Carlyle as Rumplestiltskin/Mr. Gold.

 

Guest stars include Tony Amendola as Marco/Geppetto, Beverley Elliott as Granny, Merrin Dungey as Ursula, Victoria Smurfit as Cruella De Vil, Faustino Di Bauda as Sleepy, Jakob Davies as Pinocchio and Kristin Bauer van Straten as Maleficent,

 

[KingOfHearts]

So two obvious things here.

 

1. The Charmings are in desperation when they encounter the Queens of Darkness. It's probably something to do with the curse.

2. Regina and Henry are going to try to find a way to resurrect August or get Pinocchio's memories back.

[YaddaYadda]

Meanwhile, in a flashback to Fairy Tale Land, Snow and Charming cross paths with the Queens of Darkness as the threat of the Evil Queen’s Dark Curse hangs over all of them on

 

Well this part is pretty interesting.  Almost sounds like they ally with each other against the dark curse before things go to hell between them.

 

ETA - does that mean Snow was already pregnant when this went down or was that right before that big wedding ceremony that Regina crashed?

Edited March 3, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[Curio]

Is there a way we can just insert an asterisk into every press release this season as a footnote about Regina looking for The Author instead of putting it in the actual description? It's pretty much a given that she's going to be searching for that stupid person in every single episode until the finale, so you don't need to keep putting it into every release. It could just be like:

 

Heroes and Villains (4.11)* [insert description], Darkness on the Edge of Town (4.12)* [insert description], Unforgiven (4.13)* [insert description].

 

*We are legally obligated to note that this episode features Operation Mongoose and Regina searching for The Author. Yes, this exact same wording is used in every press release because the writers keep repeating the same pointless scenes over and over, and just in case you didn't already know, yes, there is another road block. No, we don't know the gender of The Author yet. So if you wish to not read about it anymore, please ignore any future asterisk footnotes and save your sanity. Thank you.

[KAOS Agent]

Regina and Henry are going to try to find a way to resurrect August or get Pinocchio's memories back.

 

That would be a truly horrible thing to do to that kid. Which puts it right up Regina's alley. Why think about messing up other people (whose lives you've already destroyed) when your happy ending is at stake?

 

 

Does that mean Snow was already pregnant when this went down or was that right before that big wedding ceremony that Regina crashed?

 

It would have to be post wedding at least since that's when Regina first threatened them with the curse. You'd think it was during the pregnancy too since they weren't really all that concerned about the curse on their honeymoon where they were all Let's make a baby because Regina's threats are meaningless.

Edited March 3, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[retrograde]

Mega Buzz: Is Once Upon a Time's Cruella the Mightiest Queen of Darkness?

 

But how far do her powers extend? Could she hold sway over fairy-tale creatures like unicorns? "We are actually going to test that theory -- whether or not she can control magical creatures -- in the second half of the season," co-creator Edward Kitsis tells TVGuide.com. Controlling magical creatures is only one step away from controlling magical beings that are part animal. If Cruella has this ability, then she could potentially have influence over her fellow Queens of Darkness Ursula (Merrin Dungey), who is part octopus, and Maleficent (Kristin Bauer Van Straten), who has the ability to take dragon form.

[Watt]

I bet snow and charming asked Mal for some kind of protection for Emma, a failsafe or something, but the price is that her heart isnt pure or whatever.

Or maybe the price was they switched Emma heart with Regina's since apparently the goal is for Regina to save the day. Again.

Then their true goal (for Regina to be the hero of the show) could finally be realized.

Edited March 3, 2015 by Watt

[Souris]

Or maybe the price was they switched Emma heart with Regina's 

 

Congratulations! You've officially won The Most Disturbing Speculation I've Ever Heard Award! LOL.

[Watt]

Congratulations! You've officially won The Most Disturbing Speculation I've Ever Heard Award! LOL.

This is what I've become watching this show. Think of the most illogical, horrible thing they could possibly do, and watch it happen.

[KingOfHearts]

I sort of want Cruella to have a happy ending. She seems the most grounded, funny and intelligent. So if she ends up controlling Maleficent and Ursula, I'd be game.

[ParadoxLost]

What could the righteous marrieds possibly be hiding? In slowly revealing this secret, “The goal is to deepen who they are, and take what we’ve already presented and present another layering,” shares Once co-creator Adam Horowitz. With the first hint at the secret to come next Sunday, he says, “Our hope is that by the time everything is revealed, you’ll see it really informs who they were in Season 1.”

 

I think this is as simple as they made a deal that obligated Emma in some sinister way at some point in the future to make it possible to send her through the wardrobe.  It never fails when someone makes a deal with Rumpel or his ilk that they take what is needed at that moment and worry about the consequences when they happen.

[Rumsy4]

Emma begins her own investigation of Cruella and Ursula, but she can’t shake the feeling that her friends and family are keeping something from her.

The 'friends' refers to the connection between Hook and Ursula, I bet. I think whatever Hook did to Ursula may have been when he was working for Pan in Neverland. Is there anything in the spoilers to indicate it was pre-Milah? I can't remember.

I too think Snowing went to the QoD for help against Regina's Dark Curse. They probably demanded control over Emma's heart or whatever in exchange. Snowing agree in desperation, thinking they can double-cross the QoD. Something went wrong--Regina ended up capturing Mal, and Cruella and Ursula got dumped in the Land Without Magic.

[KAOS Agent]

Smee was seen filming at some point, so I assume the Ursula stuff is post-Milah, but who knows?