Spoiler Discussion: The apple was poisoned?!

[Rumsy4]

Am I being too cynical to think that this filming pic tweet of Lana's is in direct response to Jen's tweet yesterday of her, Colin and Jared? And, of course, her calling it "a family affair" made me Marge Simpson growl. Yes, let's just ignore/erase Marian completely....

 

That combined with Lana saying in tweets and interviews that Marian should just die, I just think she taking "method acting" too far... 

[Jul 68]

I think Once has way too many characters for a villain of the half-season to work well. Season, yes, I could see it, but 11 episodes is just not enough for everyone to get their spotlight. So we get a lot of plot with barely any character development.

Replied in the All Seasons thread, because that's where we are supposed to, it appears. I never knew what that thread was for. Now I do.

[Rumsy4]

New article with tidbits from JMo and Carlyle about Emma's magic being out of control. 

 

 

But Rumple has his own hesitations about helping Emma try to contain — or get rid of — her magic. “She’s savior magic [and] all magic is different,” Robert Carlyle (Rumple) pointed out. “That’s the thing in our world; savior magic is a different thing. There’s an episode that’s coming up…where he says that, ‘That savior magic won’t go quietly.’ It’s a very different thing. I don’t think he has any intentions of helping Emma in her life. Gold/Rumple, he’s very, he’s selfish, you know. He’s a selfish kind of guy and he’s addicted to the power, he’s addicted to the magic, he’s addicted to his own world. He doesn’t have a lot of time for anyone else. I think that’s what makes the character so interesting. You can hope that he’s gonna be nice, but maybe not.” - 

 

That "savior magic" went quietly enough with Zelena's dumb Kiss Curse. Another retcon, or is it a play by Rumple to try to Hat her? Hmmm... even for Rumple, that's cold. I thought Mr. Gold always had a bit of a soft spot for Emma. But if he is willing to throw her under the bus for the sake of power, then, he becomes unredeemable in my eyes. It seems a little OOC too. Trying to gain power is one thing, but sacrificing Emma, after all that she's done for him, seems pretty ruthless. I guess it may make sense as it plays out. 

Edited November 8, 2014 by Rumsy4

[Jean]

Well if Henry, his own blood, isn't safe from him, then nobody's untouchable. After that swing incident there isn't a line that Rumple won't cross.

I'm curious to see what Rumple gets up to in ep. 9 and 10 that Robert thinks Rumple takes the evil to a new level. It has to be hurting Belle right? That's about the only thing that's left. Or maybe he'll dig up Neal's bones to use in a spell to kill Henry. But I'd consider that a favor to humanity.

[Rumsy4]

Well if Henry, his own blood, isn't safe from him, then nobody's untouchable. After that swing incident there isn't a line that Rumple won't cross.

 

That is true, but he seems to have changed his mind about killing Henry (at least, for now). If he is now willing to "Hat" Emma, then it means he's fully backslid to Imp Rumple, and what was the point of him reuniting with his son? This makes Neal even more pointless as a character, and much as I disliked him, I think that is ridiculous. And I will be beyond annoyed if the writers still keep insisting that Rumple loves Belle and that he is still redeemable. But of course, that's exactly what will happen. :-p

 

I'm curious to see what Rumple gets up to in ep. 9 and 10 that Robert thinks Rumple takes the evil to a new level.

 

Trying to throw Emma into the Hat, I presume. 

Edited November 8, 2014 by Rumsy4

[retrograde]

Looks like Marian has definitely defrosted by/in 4.11. Before the season started, I had no idea how the writers expected to resolve this situation in any vaguely satisfying way, and now I... still have no idea, because it isn't moving forward one iota while Marian is on ice.  

[SimoneS]

I don't recall Rumple ever having a soft spot for Emma or even Henry. The only two people who have ever mattered to Rumple are Bael and Belle. Rumple put Regina and the whole curse in action to get this world to find Bae. I love that Rumple is consistently power hungry and self-absorbed. He is a true villain. Rumple does not run around like Regina wanting to redeemed or even making trouble for other people. He just lives his life and pursues his own agenda. Goodness help the people who get in his way. I think that Rumple is either on a power grabbing crusade or he is plotting to go back in time and bring Bae back. 

[Souris]

Zap2It ponders who will die.

[myril]

Zap2It ponders who will die.

 

Am I odd, that I start to think, that it would be fine, if they'd kill Emma this season? Get her out of this mess the radical way, so I can finally stop watching the show without feeling like letting down a good character? And give Jennifer Morrison more space for better projects? I mean, the show is sure still good money, but there might be better things from a creative point of view.

 

Sad, where the emotional impact of the recent two episodes and the spoilers for the next one has taken me.

Edited November 8, 2014 by katusch

[Dianthus]

If Rumple tries to Hat Emma, Hook sings like a canary, unless Rumple takes him out first. If Rumple takes out Hook before trying to Hat Emma, she goes ape-dump. Ugh! 

[retrograde]

Pretty sure Rumple doesn't take out Hook, as he was filming yesterday. At this stage, i'm going to guess: Emma goes to Rumple for help, he suggests the hat, Hook has to tell her everything, she is mad at Hook for 1.5 episodes.

[Jean]

Rumple doesn't even care all that much for Belle. He's nice to her more than others, which is something I guess, but if she gets in his way? He'll throw her under the bus like everyone else. He threw her away when she tried to TLK him and got in between him and his curse making plans. He was all set to let her die when he thought Neal was a goner. He knows DQ is a threat to her but since he's got bigger plans that takes precedence. The way he's using her as a 24/7 alibi is no different from the way he's used everyone else. She's not going to fare well if she tries to get in between him and the hat.

I'm starting to wonder if Robert only had a 4 year contract and that's why A&E are willing to write Rumple the way Robert wants it to be. Or they're trying to convince him to extend it and is therefore letting him have control.

It would be funny if that different "savior magic" meant that instead of Emma getting hatted and de-magicked, she ends up absorbing all that magic that Rumple wanted. Just imagine Rumple's face! Might be the best thing ever in the entire series.

[l star]

Rumple never just does anything. When Emma goes to him, maybe he tells her that he thinks he has a way to take her powers if she really wants to (the hat) but she will have to do something for him first. Cue lots of angst about whether getting rid of her powers is really worth whatever sketchiness he is asking for and Rumple figuring out if a powerless Emma is good for him. Then she does it, everything goes to hell, and his answer isn't to take her powers but to hat her.

[Dianthus]

IDK. I've read lots of speculation about Hook's untimely demise around here lately. It's certainly not what I want to see, not by a long stretch. Technically they already killed him off last season anyway, only to have Emma save him and lose her magic. 

[KAOS Agent]

How the hell would Rumpel know anything about Saviour Magic? He didn't even know she was magical until she told him in "Queen of Hearts". I really dislike the ret-conning that's going on. And why on earth would anyone trust Rumpel? They all know he planned to kill Henry. It's just so stupid.  

[retrograde]

IDK. I've read lots of speculation about Hook's untimely demise around here lately. It's certainly not what I want to see, not by a long stretch. Technically they already killed him off last season anyway, only to have Emma save him and lose her magic. 

I think it's based on the fact that most people expect them to throw a TLK in there with Emma sooner or later. It's just kinda how this show rolls. And given we already know Hook loves her, it has to be her kissing him. 

[stealinghome]

Or they're trying to convince him to extend it and is therefore letting him have control.

This is my guess. imo it's pretty clear that Carlyle was NOT happy with the show in general, and the writing for Rumpel specifically, last year. Them suddenly turning Rumpel bad again, which is what Carlyle has always wanted, just screams to me that they're trying to appease him.

[Rumsy4]

And why on earth would anyone trust Rumpel? They all know he planned to kill Henry. It's just so stupid.  

 

Shh... Nobody is supposed to react normally to these things in this Show. Otherwise, they'll be labelled as "unforgiving". 

 

I too think Carlyle is not happy with OUAT, but I don't think he's threatening to leave or anything like that. This is a stead paycheck, and will probably lead to other bigger roles down the line. 

[Souris]

I don't think DQ would be happy about any plans by Rumple to take Emma's magic or hat her, since she seems to want her to be part of her Sisterhood of Magical Blondes. So that could create a DQ/Rumple fight. I wonder if DQ would go so far as to sacrifice herself for Emma.

[InsertWordHere]

That "savior magic" went quietly enough with Zelena's dumb Kiss Curse. Another retcon, or is it a play by Rumple to try to Hat her?

Well, if I look at it through my Captain Swan colored glasses, it could be that the kiss curse worked because it was an act of love and Emma's magic comes from True Love. Of course, that only works if one believes CS is true love and that the CPR wasn't technically a kiss.

[Serena]

I think they've foreshadowed Hook dying/being in mortal danger pretty hard this season. There was "I'm gonna be there, unless a snow monster kills me first", then Emma saying she couldn't lose him (which of course means she will) and him saying he's good at surviving, then Rumple telling him that he was gonna be under contract until he died, and probably something else I forgot.

[sharky]

Well, if I look at it through my Captain Swan colored glasses, it could be that the kiss curse worked because it was an act of love and Emma's magic comes from True Love. Of course, that only works if one believes CS is true love and that the CPR wasn't technically a kiss.

That's how I see it. Even if you consider CPR a kiss, being a TLK doesn't factor in to it. Zelena'a curse on his lips had nothing to do with true love, it was just a curse. But still, Hook dying and Emma saving him has already happened. I wish they would do something other than this. But again, the signs and foreshadowing are there. Of course, the signs are also there for Captain Swan to get married this season, but that's a little too much for one half season.

[YaddaYadda]

That's how I see it. Even if you consider CPR a kiss, being a TLK doesn't factor in to it. Zelena'a curse on his lips had nothing to do with true love, it was just a curse. But still, Hook dying and Emma saving him has already happened. I wish they would do something other than this. But again, the signs and foreshadowing are there. Of course, the signs are also there for Captain Swan to get married this season, but that's a little too much for one half season.

 

Taking this to the relationship thread.

[kili]

If he is now willing to "Hat" Emma, then it means he's fully backslid to Imp Rumple, and what was the point of him reuniting with his son? This makes Neal even more pointless as a character

 

Neal is and always was a MacGuffin. He's a plot device who moves the plot along. Rumple spent his entire life justifying his abuse of others because of his love for his son, but it never really was about his son. His actions harmed his son, his son protested against his actions and his son alternatively begged/extorted him to change. Rumples actions were not for his son which became increasingly evident when he ignored his son when he was around. Did Rumple love his son? Yes. But Rumple's love for his son was never enough.

 

When Rumple found Neal, he was not transformed. He did not suddenly start being nice to others and abandon his magic. He didn't give back his stolen booty in his store. He did beat people to a pulp in the street. He ignored requests to save the town. He contemplated killing Neal's son. He ripped out a heart and crushed it. He wouldn't even offer to brew a potion to save his grandson's other grandfather's life without requesting a payment. Rumple may have sacrificed himself to kill Pan when he was backed into a corner (he was effectively dead at that point anyway with Pan's curse on its way), but his son ultimately died which totally justifies him going back to full on evil.

 

Rumple won't hesitate to hat his grandson's mother. She is nothing to him. He was content to leave her to die when she was freezing when he had no skin in the game. Imagine how more willing he will be to off her when it is to his advantage.

 

And Hook will die. They've done too much work this season laying the clues for his death for him not to die. It won't be permanent.

 

If Marian's ice curse is broken by Regina/Robin True Love Kissing, I just might have to throw up. To make that poor woman owe her life to her slug of a husband falling in love with her executioner just makes my skin crawl. And of course, because the writers have had her conveniently frozen almost the entire season, she has not been able to reconnect with Roland so it will only make sense for her to allow Robin and Regina to keep him. That will be Marian's act of true love. I love the DQ, but I don't love her for freezing punching bag Marian.

[RadioGirl27]

Script tease: Gold and Henry.

This and Jennifer Morrison's comments about the role of Henry in her magic going haywire, makes me wonder if Gold is going to do something to mess with Emma's magic so she needs to go to him, and what the DQ does only increases it.

[Amerilla]

I seem to recall Carlyle has said in past interviews that he has a five-year contract.

 

The whole "Carlyle likes it dark so they're writing him that way to keep him happy" meme seem a little askew to me. I mean, maybe that's what is happening. but they're writing him dark and he doesn't seem very happy. Killing Nealfire (a storytelling choice that Carlyle was said to be very unhappy with) cut the emotional core out of Gold's character. He doesn't have anything compelling to work towards anymore - being a "magic addict" doesn't really make for compelling viewing if it never goes anywhere, and this is likely not going to go anywhere. He'll plot and scheme and fail and have angst, and then he'll start the next plot-scheme-fail-angst cycle again, because that's just how these writers roll.

 

If a character's journey is over, it's over. The actor is just marking time.

 

He's been pretty open in the past that this kind of series work brings a nice paycheck and fits his lifestyle at the moment. Plus, he's getting his creative fix on the side. I read the other day that the movie he directed and starred in over the summer is scheduled to come out in January, in time for Sundance. 

[Jean]

I hope we get acknowledgement of some sort that what Emma's doing by giving up her magic to protect her kid, is something that Rumple couldn't and wouldn't do for Bae. It's not exactly the same thing because Emma doesn't actually care about her magic, while Rumple wants his but they have the same type of hang-ups. They have to fill up 2 hours, might as well do something with it. Or maybe they'll just rely on Robert and his face that tells a million emotions to do all the work for them. Like usual.

 

Or maybe the 2 hours will be used to tell the Frozen story, which they desperately need to do. For all the focus the Frozen people supposedly get, we still don't know anything. There's no story there. We don't know how Elsa got urned, how Anna got out of that jail DQ put her in only to end up in some chest under water, where the hell Kristoff ended up, what's going on in Arendelle etc. Since the premiere we've gotten 1 piece of new information, DQ is their aunt and is involved in the whole shebang.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Killing Nealfire (a storytelling choice that Carlyle was said to be very unhappy with) cut the emotional core out of Gold's character

Replying in Villains thread.

[Mathius]

This is my guess. imo it's pretty clear that Carlyle was NOT happy with the show in general, and the writing for Rumpel specifically, last year. Them suddenly turning Rumpel bad again, which is what Carlyle has always wanted, just screams to me that they're trying to appease him.

Yeah, he said he enjoyed the Papa Pan stuff (since that allowed him to be intense and play off Robbie Kay very well), but otherwise he seemed discontent with what a mope Rumple was for most of the season. I think he's enjoying the hat plot more, especially when playing off Colin O'Donoghue.

[retrograde]

Script tease #2.

[RadioGirl27]

Script tease #2.

I have lost all my interest on this episode. Again, an episode that should be about Emma is going to be about Regina.

[Rumsy4]

Yawn!

[Serena]

That just makes him look more of a douche, like the used to talk about Marian all the time and now he's like whatever, where's Regina?

[Rumsy4]

So in the same episode, Douche is going to reminisce about Marian and also make that constipated speech to Regina about being conflicted that Marian is alive. Okay...

[RadioGirl27]

I had the terrible thought that, somehow, the story about how he met Marian is going to include a tabern, a pretty girl with long hair and a misunderstanding. In other words, Robin saw Regina (but not her face) the day she was supposed to meet him, he felt a "connection" and run after her only to meet Marian instead.

Now I'm angry with myself.

[Rumsy4]

OMG, RadioGirl, I bet you are right!! o_O

[Serena]

That is horrifying.

[Emma]

Oh crap. That's exactly the kind of twist the writers love.

[Serena]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that is what's gonna happen. Didn't Lana post a BTS picture of her as young Regina on Twitter? Don't exactly remember when, but I kinda remember seeing it.

That would completely show what kind of bullshit OQ is, though. So he fell in love with the back of her head? Her hair? He wasn't even close enough to see her skin color, but he just ~felt it. Gag me. What kind of lazy writing?

[BoPeeps]

Jaysus, are they doing a number on the iconic hero status of Robin Hood or what? From bold, fantastically heroic, honor breathing, defiantly loyal and every woman's childhood dream of iconic symbol of devoted, romantic love, fierce freedom fighter man of/by and for the people against tyranny~ to mealy mouthed, weak assed, spineless, second rate whiney waaa waaa douche goober.

 

While Regina does her own *the meds aren't working* bi-polar mood swing dance of supposed redemption, and has catches of momentary honorable intentions before practicing more acts/ speeches of sheer hot mess WTF-ness...Robin is just sliding down the slope of two bit every-day-jerk. What a crappy pairing he and Regina would/will be...and that is a shame because they started out sassy and sexy and fun. Marian changes everything. EVERYTHING. And it is becoming more apparent that they bit off much more than they could handle in bringing her back and treating her (and their love story of the ages) with such casual... disrespect.

 

Moving on to Rumple. Frankly, his lust for power has always been more important to him than any person, place or thing. It has always been about The Rumple and always will be. Bae was more a symbol of his own cracked childhood and an excuse to pretend he had a heart left. He came close, but honestly, the portrayal of adult Baelfire never wholly connected with the passionate little boy Rumple was obsessed with controlling and smothering (in his own quest to rewrite his miserable childhood). Belle...pfft. That's not honest love. What is honest love is the love Rumple has for himself and his driven need for power. Everything else is pretty much an excuse to pretend he IS who he isn't!

No wonder Carlyle loves the Dark One version.

[FurryFury]

and that is a shame because they started out sassy and sexy and fun.

 

Really? In what world? Personally, I was 99% sure this romance is going to suck after I learned that Robin's being recast and he was hinted to be Regina's LI. I didn't hate them at that point, but for some reason, I never expected for them to be even watchable, and time proved me right. From their first flashback non-meeting in 3x03 and Tink's "soulmate finding" spell it was obvious it's not going to end well (for us, viewers. For R&R, of course it will, they deserve each other at this point).

[BoPeeps]

Really. Yes. In my world they started out sassy, sexy and fun :)  To me, they were an enjoyable foil to each other. And at that point SOMEONE was having frisky fun and not being a constant source of angst-in-relationships drama. If they hadn't screwed around with the re-incarnation of Marion It would have been just fine by me and fit in OK over time.

 

But you are absolutely right, they do deserve each other, in the best of worst ways!

 

The new script spoiler just underlines the cringe-worthy direction Robin's *conflicted and confused* brain is taking. And though the dialogue can turn on a dime and taken out of context, things could be different than they appear, there is very little chance for redemption of Mr. Hood in my estimation! They screwed him, royally. (no Evil Queen double entendre intended...or maybe not!)

Edited November 9, 2014 by BoPeeps

[Emma]

Forget Regina. I know her shit is going to enrage me and that won't change any time soon.

 

I'm more worried about that scene with Emma and the moms. I'm probably making a big deal out of one picture but that is making me cringe the most.

[YaddaYadda]

I think we're making a big deal out of the picture.  I saw that Espenson has said that this episode (penned by A&E) had some of the best comedic moments and I'm not even sure how to take this to be honest.  I know OQ is unintentional cringeworthy comedy at this point.  But the rest really isn't, so I guess we'll see.

[KingOfHearts]

 

In other words, Robin saw Regina (but not her face) the day she was supposed to meet him, he felt a "connection" and run after her only to meet Marian instead.

I bet Marian, in her evilness, got in the way of Regina so she could get Robin herself. Truman Show style.

Edited November 9, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[myril]

May I introduce: The three sisters of Arendelle...

 

https://twitter.com/HuttonPascale/status/531545379909955584

[Mari]

I bet Marian, in her evilness, got in the way of Regina so she could get Robin herself.

One of the White family probably sent Marian on an errand with bad directions.

[Serena]

You can tell the DQ is evil because of others have their cleavage covered up.

[YaddaYadda]

Helga looks absolutely nothing like Emma.  Guess all Hook saw was blonde hair.

[retrograde]

Helga looks absolutely nothing like Emma.  Guess all Hook saw was blonde hair.

Yeah, she looked nothing like the drawing, either. It was definitely a stretch.