Spoiler Discussion: The apple was poisoned?!

[Rumsy4]

Of course there's a family secret.

 

Another of those "we never heard this until now for no reason" secrets. Groan.

 

Yeah, I do not like the wording in the press release. Really, Regina?

 

I can't blame her this time, becasue Zelena is conspiring with Hades to trap the Nevengers in Underbrooke for eternity.

[KingOfHearts]

Jonathan can't be Zeus, unless Zeus somehow needs royal treasure to pay the bills.

[kili]

Meanwhile, David finally meets James, only to realize that his twin is determined to seek revenge on him for stealing the life he could have had,

 

Has James been talking to Zelena? One too many snakes to the head?

 

How exactly did David steal the life James could have had? James should be going after Rumple, Ruth, unnamed father and King George. David lived as a pauper until he was forced to fake being his brother. Then, his life was constantly in peril either from a dragon or King George or Regina. The good things in David's life are all due to his bravery and compassion for others.

 

Still, I hope that James gets to move on because I'm tired of people ending up in the green goo.

Edited April 20, 2016 by kili

[Mathius]

I really don't see what the problem is. If Zelena gets a happy ending with Hades then she'd get the same kind of a happy ending Regina would have gotten (or thought she would get) had the Dark Curse not been broken. It's a happy ending at the expense of everyone else.

 

Yeah, I think the wording on the press release is just iffy, the preview seems to indicate that Regina has Zelena's actual happiness and well-being in mind here since she rightfully doesn't think Hades is good for her ("He's a villain!") 

 

I liked how the Regina-Zelena dynamic was handled in 5x16 and 5x17, but 5x18 really disappointed me (Regina came off as way too sanctimonious and hypocritical there), I hope this episode is a return to form given that it's all about them.

 

Oh, and Pan is back! Is it just for this episode or will he be present in 5x20 is the question now.

 

Still, I hope that James gets to move on because I'm tired of people ending up in the green goo.

 

Or he could end up in the fire, that'd be fitting.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Mathius

[kili]

Or he could end up in the fire, that'd be fitting.

I disagree. If Regina's and Rumple's crappy parents are mitigating factors for their evil deeds and they get redemption, James deserves it too. King George was clearly an awful dad and James hasn't nearly the track record of  Rumple/Regina.

 

Yes, he helped Jack attack the giants, but Liam killed a boat full of men so that he could get a better job (keep in mind, he did not do it to save his brother, just so that they could get in the Navy. He could have saved everybody by sailing out of the storm which was the original plan).  He got to go to heaven, why not James? Henry Sr. cheerfully abetted Regina's crimes and set up a Black Knight to be killed (the Knight's heart was in Regina's vault so he was their under duress) and he got to go to heaven.

 

I just find it depressing when people go in the goo or the fire pit. I would like David to reach his brother and help him move on in a pleasant way. I think David would like that too. He has no beef with his brother.

[KAOS Agent]

 

Pan is back! Is it just for this episode or will he be present in 5x20 is the question now.

 

I assume since the episode is about Regina/Zelena, Zelena would need to be around in the present for this story to work. Plus, the Hades/Zelena date is in this one right? Zelena can't do all the stuff she does in this episode and get kidnapped unless the kidnapping happens at the end. This says to me that Pan is in 5.20. 

[Souris]

I've seen speculation that the secret is that Regina and Zelena met as kids and were friends, but Cora erased their memories. It is weird both of their child selves are in the next ep.

[CheshireCat]

Souris, on 19 Apr 2016 - 11:36 PM, said:

I've seen speculation that the secret is that Regina and Zelena met as kids and were friends, but Cora erased their memories. It is weird both of their child selves are in the next ep.

 

That's actually really simply but very possible. Now I'm actually hoping that'll be the case! Although is that possible given that Zelena grew up in Oz and Regina in the Enchanted Forest?

[Mathius]

Casting call for young Zelena indicated she finds a way out of Oz after having all she can take from her asshole "father".

Edited April 20, 2016 by saoirse
Take discussion of the past to appropriate topic

[YaddaYadda]

I've seen speculation that the secret is that Regina and Zelena met as kids and were friends, but Cora erased their memories. It is weird both of their child selves are in the next ep.

 

This is super plausible. I think we speculated this as a joke when the casting came out. If that's the case, then I hope Cora will fix her mess, and give the sisters their memories back.

 

Henry Sr is in this episode as well, so I'm assuming he will be begging Cora to let the girl grow up together, and Cora being a heartless bitch decides against it for whatever her social climbing motives are this time around.

Edited April 20, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[Rumsy4]

This would explain why Zelena and Regina are hugging it out in the season finale. 

[kili]

I've seen speculation that the secret is that Regina and Zelena met as kids and were friends, but Cora erased their memories.

I'm not sure how that would fit into the Zelena/crappy-step-father scene, but it would certainly explain why Regina thinks she never learned to dance (those memories were collateral damage).

[Mathius]

Yes, he helped Jack attack the giants, but Liam killed a boat full of men so that he could get a better job (keep in mind, he did not do it to save his brother, just so that they could get in the Navy. He could have saved everybody by sailing out of the storm which was the original plan).  He got to go to heaven, why not James?

 

Replying in Morality thread.

[KingOfHearts]

I'm not sure how that would fit into the Zelena/crappy-step-father scene, but it would certainly explain why Regina thinks she never learned to dance (those memories were collateral damage).

That makes me wonder if erasing memories really screwed up Regina and Zelena. Did they become psychopaths because their brains had huge gaps in them? Was the memory loss spell experimental or unstable? So many questions.

Edited April 20, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

So many questions.

And your questions are pointless according to A&E.

Edited April 20, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[KingOfHearts]

That sneak peek. If nothing grows in the Underworld, what is that grass? Astro turf? Also, why the heck did Hades not put them all on tombstones in the first place?
 

Somehow I think Hades needs her kiss for something other than being freed from the Underworld. Or, once he's freed, he'll be able to do something bad.

Edited April 20, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

I am kinda over Hades. He's pathetic and pushy. He definitely has some agenda he's not telling Zelena. Or at least I hope he has. Otherwise his motives seem inadequate to me.

[YaddaYadda]

Somehow I think Hades needs her kiss for something other than being freed from the Underworld. Or, once he's freed, he'll be able to do something bad.

That's pretty much the impression I'm getting.

 

If he wanted stuff to really grow in the Underworld, he wouldn't have destroyed the flowers.

 

Plus whatever he wants with Zelena, he can have in the Underworld. But he wants to go to Storybrooke instead. For what? Wage a reign of terror over the people that live there? That makes no sense. I think Hades just wants to be freed from his curse, so that he can go above, and have his actual powers restored. He may love Zelena, but he first and foremost wants that kiss from her, and he's telling her about how they can be a family, and that's something she's never had before.

 

This stuff doesn't parallel CS. The people who call Hook pushy should take a hard look at Hades.

 

Zelena and Hades are like Nimue and Merlin at best, and even that's pushing it.

Edited April 20, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[Mabinogia]

Will the kiss even work if he isn't getting it with pure intention? It's like Rumple and Belle. Supposedly the kiss won't work now because power is his true love. If Hades is using the kiss from Zelena to get his power back then isn't power his true love also, and therefore the kiss won't work? Don't both sides have to be true love, which is why Ruby wasn't sure her kiss with Dorothy would work because she didn't know Dorothy was as inexplicably in love with her as she was with Dorothy?

 

Sadly, I think Hades is just a love sick idiot but luckily Zelena is playing him, probably biding time to figure out how to defeat him or giving the others time to.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Will the kiss even work if he isn't getting it with pure intention?

He may not be wanting a TLK. It's possible he needs her kiss for something else. Remember in 3B where Zelena cursed Hook's lips to sap Emma's magic?

Edited April 20, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Jul 68]

I was just joking. If Zeus was disguised as Jonathan to get in Cora's pants, that makes Zelena Hades' niece. I'm pretty sure the show won't go for that.

Since when do A&E care about that stuff? Look at the White/Mills/Charming/Stiltskin(?) family mangrove ...er, I mean tree.

Also, don't forget that Zeus was married to his sister. The Gods didn't care either.

[Mathius]

Plus whatever he wants with Zelena, he can have in the Underworld. But he wants to go to Storybrooke instead. For what? Wage a reign of terror over the people that live there? That makes no sense. I think Hades just wants to be freed from his curse, so that he can go above, and have his actual powers restored. He may love Zelena, but he first and foremost wants that kiss from her, and he's telling her about how they can be a family, and that's something she's never had before.

 

Hades wants to take over the universe, it's a pretty simple motive.  Trying and failing before is how he got his cursed heart that binds him to the Underworld no matter where he goes and doesn't permit him to harm the living.  With his heart recharged, he'll have full unlimited godlike power again and, with Zelena's magic to help him, he can finally overthrow Zeus. He loves Zelena, but isn't above using her to get what he personally wants. His "I did it all for you" just last episode was a bunch of crap, since he clearly also did it for his own benefit, namely keeping his subjects in line and without hope.

 

Zelena probably had him pegged correctly the first time: even if his love for her is true, he's not going to put her ahead of his need for vengeance against Zeus, just like she wouldn't put him ahead of her need for vengeance against Regina.

Edited April 21, 2016 by Mathius

[kili]

I think Hades is pulling a long con on Zelena. He's hitting all the right notes. He's done his research - he said so himself. 

 

He knows that she has never felt love? Offer her love. She's jealous of her sister? Offer her everything her sister has. She wants her daughter back? Promise that she'll never have to worry about anybody taking her from her again. 

 

What was with the over-sharing of his heart problem the second time he met her? "Oh, I'm just like you and if only somebody would TLK me, I could escape. Guess what, one little ride on a bike and I think you are the one!"

 

But why bring her child to hell in the first place? He can easily go above ground. He seems to know what is going on everywhere and had to have known that Zelena was in Storybooke with her child. He knows that Regina is stuck in hell and can offer no resistance. 

 

He's up to something. He's pushing too hard. He's taking advantage of a lonely heart. "Oh, I'm sorry that I just gave you decaying Storybooke, let me offer you the real thing."  Convenient. 

 

I just hope Zelena is playing him too. I wonder if Plan A was something to do with Killian (hence the torture), but when he escaped, Plan B was implemented and the sudden interest in getting Pistachio or Zelena in the Underworld. He made no effort on that front until then. Or it could just be sloppy writing - I can never tell. 

[mjgchick]

I think its sloppy writing. Why would you want to keep those people down there who are actively doing what you don't want them to do? And why would you provoke the Savior? -_-

[YaddaYadda]

Script tease

 

Ok, I laughed when I read this. I know I shouldn't, but I did. I'm assuming they're talking about Zelena.

[Rumsy4]

These people fluctuate between wanting to kill Zelena and sparing her. lol

 

On related news, Barbara Hershey says her scene with Colin/Hook is brief. :-(

[HoodlumSheep]

On related news, Barbara Hershey says her scene with Colin/Hook is brief. :-(

Awww, that's too bad. I loved them as an evil duo.

[Mari]

That makes me wonder if erasing memories really screwed up Regina and Zelena. Did they become psychopaths because their brains had huge gaps in them? Was the memory loss spell experimental or unstable? So many questions.

Well, considering how much Henry's memory's been meddled with, that doesn't bode well for his future.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Well, considering how much Henry's memory's been meddled with, that doesn't bode well for his future.

Well being raised by a psychopath then given fake memories should screw him up pretty good.

[Mathius]

These people fluctuate between wanting to kill Zelena and sparing her. lol

 

Considering the "what?" prefacing "kill her" and Hook's "step in the right direction" reply, I actually think in context this is about Regina saying that she does NOT want to kill Zelena in order to solve their current problem with her.

Edited April 22, 2016 by Mathius

[ABitOFluff]

I thought they might talking about Zelena too, but then Hook has been pretty sympathetic towards his #1 CS shipper lately. Maybe they mean Cora.

 

Unless this exchange is all sarcasm and snark it could be anyone, even Belle.

Edited April 22, 2016 by ABitOFluff

[Rumsy4]

In the Sneak Peek, Hades tells Zelena that the Underworld will exist even without him. I guess the resolution of the arc will play into this. Hades will move on (wherever) and someone else will take his place. I'm wondering if Rumple will eventually become the Lord of the Uw. He would be worse than Hades. lol

[KingOfHearts]

 

In the Sneak Peek, Hades tells Zelena that the Underworld will exist even without him. I guess the resolution of the arc will play into this. Hades will move on (wherever) and someone else will take his place. I'm wondering if Rumple will eventually become the Lord of the Uw. He would be worse than Hades. lol

Stuff like this fuels my crack theory that Hades is an imposter.

Edited April 22, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[PixiePaws1]

Stuff like this fuels my crack theory that Hades is an imposter.

Oohh....could get behind this. ..and Emma &co free the true Hades and he rewards them by giving them a 'one time only' deal to get out of the UW...Hook included provided Emma and Hook can pass the test of the True Love temple.. (or he just packs up Killian's soul in that takeway container that Emma was supposedly carrying back in SB)

Edited April 22, 2016 by PixiePaws1

[Mabinogia]

I'm down with Impostor Hades. It would be the perfect way to undo all the stupid this Underworld trip has done. Hell, this might not even be the real Underworld. Maybe it's all a long con and "Hades" is  some kind of fallen dark one or something, maybe a flying monkey who fell for Zelena, made a deal with the devil to take human form and ended up stuck in this lame underworld as part of that deal.

 

Who knows. I don't like what they've done with Hades, so I would be fully onboard if they make him a fake.

[InsertWordHere]

YES James and David finally meet. James did seem to be seeking glory in his original appearance in The Shepherd, but I still think Cruella was right about his feelings regarding the baby selling as well, even if she is "better with dogs" ha!

[YaddaYadda]

The David/James sneak peek has me more excited about the episode.

 

Hades is buttering up Zelena (because I'm pretty convinced he is), and James replaces David, puts the anti-magic cuff on Emma, and it looks like he and Cruella take off with the baby.

 

I'm pretty certain Hades can't hurt the living at all, even if they're in his realm, and that's why he has other people running around to do what he should be doing. 

 

But Hades puts the names of everyone else on the grave markers. And that's basically all that he does. And he wants to go above, but doesn't want the heroes to follow him. 

[Mabinogia]

James and Zelena should hook up. They've both got issues being dumped by their mothers. They could plot together to bring down Team Charming Mills (ooh, I just came up with the new name for my fictional village). I'd prefer that to Zelena and Hades. It would make more sense, since James has a reason to be resentful the way Zelena does. Plus, think of the damage they could do with James' looking like Charming? That could have been Wicked fun.

[kili]

But Hades puts the names of everyone else on the grave markers.

 

I'm even starting to side-eye that. Why didn't he do that in the first place? Why have Rumple burn the boat when it was as easy as putting names on a gravestone? We don't even know if that does anything. Maybe he just wants us to think he does. Hook scribbling on them did nothing because Snow could always leave. It's just about crushing hope.

 

Hades is Sawyer pulling a really long con on everybody.

[SiobhanJW]

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/once-a-time-rebecca-mader-886581?utm_source=twitter#OUAT

 

How "Mind Blowing" can this secret possibly be? 

[InsertWordHere]

It's this show. It's probably either another secret child or Zelena's adoptive father is going to be revealed as connected to someone else on the show. I'd suggest a connection with her biological father, Jonathon, but he's not listed in the synopsis. 

Edited April 22, 2016 by InsertWordHere

[KingOfHearts]

Pretty sure the mindblowing secret is that Regina and Zelena met as children and Cora erased their memories.

Whenever I see James, I see David trying to act evil. Nothing against Josh Dallas' acting, but it takes me out of the scene. David has been defined as such a meek, fatherly character, that it's hard to see his face on an opposite personality. Plus, I'm always thinking about how they're pulling off having the same actor playing two characters in the same scene.

[HoodlumSheep]

Pretty sure the mindblowing secret is that Regina and Zelena met as children and Cora erased their memories.

Which is literally the least mind-blowing secret ever. *sighs*

I also hate the idea of it because they'll probably pull a "hey, if we got along with each other that one time when we were kids...why don't we give it a shot now??" It just bugs me.

[profdanglais]

 Plus, I'm always thinking about how they're pulling off having the same actor playing two characters in the same scene.

 

Me too. It looked pretty well done in the sneak peek. It bugs the heck out of me when the stand-in's back/hair, etc doesn't look anything like the main actor. 

[kili]

Pretty sure the mindblowing secret is that Regina and Zelena met as children and Cora erased their memories.

 

What if the secret is that she does it to protect Zelena? By the time that Regina is old enough to have friends, Henry Sr. would be so far under Cora's thumb that Cora totally would have had the option of bringing an orphan to live in her house (it's not like royalty and aristocrats didn't do that kind of stuff). So, she'd have to have a good reason not to want Zelena in the house and her crimping Cora's chances probably isn't it.

 

If Zelena is obviously magical and Cora knows that Rumple wants her magical daughter to cast the spell (or just wants to use her in some way that Cora thinks is contrary to Cora's best interest), Cora would have a reason to keep her hidden. As far as I recall, Regina never showed any magical ability until after Cora was tossed through the looking glass, so possibly, Cora thought she was a big old Muggle and safe from Rumple's plans.

 

It wouldn't explain Cora not worrying about Regina being magical earlier in the season, but it would make the letter Rumple sent (which was featured in Season 3) make a little more sense. Cora eventually got to the point of actively hiding Zelena.

[Shanna Marie]

I'm pretty impressed by the dual roles in the sneak peek. There were a couple of moments when I almost forgot it was the same actor.

[CheshireCat]

kili, on 22 Apr 2016 - 3:28 PM, said:kili, on 22 Apr 2016 - 3:28 PM, said:

What if the secret is that she does it to protect Zelena? By the time that Regina is old enough to have friends, Henry Sr. would be so far under Cora's thumb that Cora totally would have had the option of bringing an orphan to live in her house (it's not like royalty and aristocrats didn't do that kind of stuff). So, she'd have to have a good reason not to want Zelena in the house and her crimping Cora's chances probably isn't it.

 

...

 

It wouldn't explain Cora not worrying about Regina being magical earlier in the season, but it would make the letter Rumple sent (which was featured in Season 3) make a little more sense. Cora eventually got to the point of actively hiding Zelena.

 

That would require Cora to actually care about either of her daughters. But she hasn't exactly been portrayed as caring about her daughters' well-being. One was cast aside so that she could have her best chance, the other was raised so that she could live the life her mother always wanted. That makes it difficult for me to believe that she would actively hide Zelena especially since the contract with Rumple was nullified.

 

I would think it's more likely she wanted to keep the sisters apart so that Regina wouldn't get any ideas which would crush the plans she had for her. If Regina bonds with a sister, she would likely gain confidence and might be encouraged to do things she wouldn't do otherwise. For all that Cora knows, she might even run away or discover that she, too, has magic, and that would mean she might want to learn and then she could fight back. From what I've seen, I'd say it's more likely Cora's reasons are of a selfish nature.

Edited April 22, 2016 by CheshireCat

[kili]

That would require Cora to actually care about either of her daughters. But she hasn't exactly been portrayed as caring about her daughters' well-being. One was cast aside so that she could have her best chance, the other was raised so that she could live the life her mother always wanted.

 

I think in Cora's warped mind, she was doing her best for Regina. She just thought Regina's ideas about marrying for love were going to get her heart broken just like her own were. I'm sure she took one look at Daniel and saw Jonathon. In retrospect, ripping out his heart was probably partly about getting revenge on Jonathon.

 

I'm not saying Cora was right to do what she did, but I do think that she thought she was doing what was best for Regina. So, I could see her trying to protect Zelena.

 

A magical daughter like Zelena should have seemed like a gift from heaven to Cora, so why didn't she immediately embrace her? There has to be a reason. I don't think it is merely because Zelena was more powerful than her because Cora always thinks she can control the situation.

[KingOfHearts]

TVLINE | Baby Hood will get a name by the end of the season. Did it meet with your approval?

It really does. It really does, yeah. It’s pretty amazing.

Robin. It's Robin. Robin, Robin, Robin.

 

TVLINE | [series co-creators] Adam and Eddy told me that Sam Witwer and Hank Harris aren’t necessarily playing who or what it’s been reported they’re playing….

It’s an amazing set-up for next season. It’s really, really huge. I can’t wait until it’s out and we can talk about it!

Is it bad I'm already hyped for S6? Maybe it's just my lack of interest in what we know about 5B's finale.

 

TVLINE | And lastly, what can you tease about the two-hour Season 5 finale (airing May 15 at 7/6c)?

Ohhhhh! [Laughs] I would say that you can’t write this stuff, but then they did. The finale is pretty bonkers….

 

"Pretty bonkers" is how I would describe most episodes.

 

 

 

TVLINE | What are we going to learn from this week’s flashbacks with Younger Zelena and Younger Regina?

I am not allowed to say a thing. It’s too good! I can’t. It’s too good to spoil.

Super excited about this. I'm probably in the minority, but I'm interested in what happens to the Mills family in 5x19. There's a huge opportunity for growth there.

Edited April 22, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[PixiePaws1]

Hmmmm....these are the same duo that said Emma went full on Dark One because of what she 'thinks' her family did....blatant lie.....

of couse that was at the beginning of the Dark Swan arc ...

IDK....i take everything those two say with at least 5 grains of salt.