Spoiler Discussion: The apple was poisoned?!

[Mari]

God, I can't care less about this three, their adventure together in the middle of the Dark Swan arc and the "Which one is Mulan's girlfriend?" that Adam seems to be playing. This is just another exemple of how easily A&E get distrated with their new (or old that seem new) toys and forget about everything else.

So I'm not the only one whose response is basically "shrug"?

 

I liked Mulan well enough, but could not care less about Red and Merida.  I'm desperately hoping it ties in somehow to the current plot, but the comments around it sound like it's a wacky side adventure, with the lesbian twist to hopefully satisfy the people pointing out that this is a very hetero show.

 

Which, well, a wacky side adventure with characters that are going to disappear again isn't particularly satisfying, even if you enjoy those characters, and judging by the "Swan Queen or nothing!" responses, I'm not sure it's going to do what they're hoping it will.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Mari

[Hookian]

So I'm not the only one whose response is basically "shrug"?

 

I liked Mulan well enough, but could not care less about Red and Merida.  I'm desperately hoping it ties in somehow to the current plot, but the comments around it sound like it's a wacky side adventure, with the lesbian twist to hopefully satisfy the people pointing out that this is a very hetero show.

 

Which, well, a wacky side adventure with characters that are going to disappear again isn't particularly satisfying, even if you enjoy those characters, and judging by the "Swan Queen or nothing!" responses, I'm not sure it's going to do what they're hoping it will.

The Swan Queen fans clearly don't care about representation if that's the attitude they have about it. The rest of the fandom seems to be excited, the irony honestly. I really don't care what SQ fans think to be frank. They always have a very warped view of the show anyways.

 

This is not for that fandom and it never was. This was about a representation issue that Once has. They don't speak for every queer person out there.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Hookian

[Mari]

The rest of the fandom seems to be excited, the irony honestly. 

 

Good.  It's nice people are happy about this.

 

My only quarrel with it was that, personally, I don't find Ruby or Merida compelling, and a concern that if they were relegating Mulan and the romance they've hinted at to an independent side adventure, it would not seem connected to the rest of the show or story, and would basically be the two hour aberration they would hold up to critics to say, "See?  See?  We're inclusive." before once again completely ignoring anyone who isn't in the main cast, thereby leaving the non SQ fans who wanted more diversity feeling snubbed.

 

 

Moving to a side note--am I misremembering, or did a spoiler leak earlier saying that Merida and Belle would be having an adventure together, too?  Would that be included in this two hour episode, or would that be a separate Belle/Merida centric?

Edited October 11, 2015 by Mari

[scenicbyway]

What kind of Merida, Red and Mulan adventure could possibly relate to the DarkSwan plot?  I like all of these characters, but I wish they would just stop with Red.  She hasn't been regularly on the show since season 2?  Having her pop up once or twice every other season doesn't make any sense.  It's especially noticeable when the whole gang is at Granny's and Red is no where to be found.  Didn't Merida serve her purpose in the premiere?  I guess we have to see if she makes it back to her kingdom, why wasn't she at the ball by the way?  Mulan is another one who disappears, she was pivotal in season 2a but then supposedly decided to hang out with the merry men, except they are all in Storybrooke, where has she been?  Are we supposed to believe that Red and Mulan might be a couple?  Wasn't it Red who accidentally killed her true love (a man)?  So maybe Mulan and Merida?  This won't satisfy fans who want to see Regina and Emma together, because that's what they want, Regina and Emma to come to their senses.  Whatever.

 

It's fine to have supporting characters, but it sounds like this is going to be 2 hours devoted to something other than saving Emma and that seems about as important as the "shattered sight spell" was last season.

 

As for this week's episode, I've read all the spoilers, the Charming adventure doesn't bother me, at least it gives him something to do besides giving Regina fashion tips and dance lessons.  He didn't even have any lines in the premiere.  Of course Arthur is shady, he didn't even care that Percy died.  I am a little surprised that Hook has figured out that door is suspicious at Emma's, it's in a fairly normal location for a door.

 

I'm not worried about Captain Swan and Hook's declaration that he doesn't love Emma as the Dark One.  He still wants to break Emma free from the darkness but he knows better than anyone how the Dark One works and that they manipulate the people they love.  Anyone needs to only look and Belle and Rumple to see that.  I'm glad that he refuses to be manipulated.  He's still all for Emma.

[Rumsy4]

Moving to a side note--am I misremembering, or did a spoiler leak earlier saying that Merida and Belle would be having an adventure together, too? Would that be included in this two hour episode, or would that be a separate Belle/Merida centric?

Yes--there will be a separate Belle/Merida adventure. So far, the Merida-character seems completely out of place for this arc.

I love Red/Ruby Lucas, and I'm glad we're getting to see her and Mulan again. Maybe Ruby didn't make it to Storybrooke with the second Curse, and has been adventuring with Mulan all this time in the EF. I suspect Ruby and Granny will part ways after this arc, with Ruby deciding to remain in the EF. I wouldn't mind if the epusode is a self-contained twofer like the 3B/4B finales.

Edited October 11, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Mathius]

Moving to a side note--am I misremembering, or did a spoiler leak earlier saying that Merida and Belle would be having an adventure together, too? Would that be included in this two hour episode, or would that be a separate Belle/Merida centric?

That would be 5x06, two episodes before the two-hour one.

I wish they would just stop with Red. She hasn't been regularly on the show since season 2? Having her pop up once or twice every other season doesn't make any sense. It's especially noticeable when the whole gang is at Granny's and Red is no where to be found.

I said it before, I'll say it again: they should have just recast Red.

Are we supposed to believe that Red and Mulan might be a couple? Wasn't it Red who accidentally killed her true love (a man)?

He was never confirmed as her True Love, and Red does strike me as potentially bisexual (which Mulan is too, given that she started out crushing on Philip and then drifted to Aurora during their extended time together in Philip's absence).

It's fine to have supporting characters, but it sounds like this is going to be 2 hours devoted to something other than saving Emma and that seems about as important as the "shattered sight spell" was last season.

I doubt the whole 2 hours is dedicated to it, it's probably just a subplot.

Edited October 11, 2015 by Mathius

[KAOS Agent]

 

My point (that apparently wasn't clear) was that even though Hook's intentions are to help Emma, to drive the darkness out because he does love her, that his very good intentions, born out of love, can have unintended consequences that don't help his cause. And I think that's true for anything and anyone. I'm not trying to assign blame. In fact, I very clearly stated that I thought Hook was right not to enable Dark Emma. I was just pointing out that his actions could have consequences contrary to what he wanted because he doesn't quite understand what's going on, which is not his fault. It's not malicious it's just shit happens because everyone is just trying to do the best they can with the little they know.

 

This is exactly what they are building to. No one is to be blamed, everyone is working on limited information and doing the best they can, but that doesn't always work out the way we want it to. We also don't know why Emma believes Hook failed her in Camelot. Poor Hook is trying to help Emma (and protect his own emotional well being) and unfortunately, it plays into the Darkness' hands by further isolating her. Clearly, they make up in some way if they're holding hands after he jumps off the roof, but this whole arc is designed to destroy Emma's relationships and I think it gives them an out on resolving everything in the A arc with True Love's Kiss. I'd be really disappointed if Captain Swan returns to where they were prior to the Darkness upon its removal from Emma. That to me is on par with the endless crap between Emma & her parents that's always brushed off with a hug and a few quick words.

 

 

I liked Mulan well enough, but could not care less about Red and Merida.  I'm desperately hoping it ties in somehow to the current plot, but the comments around it sound like it's a wacky side adventure, with the lesbian twist to hopefully satisfy the people pointing out that this is a very hetero show.

 

I'm sure it's tangentially related to the main plot. Wasn't there something about Merida entering Gold's shop with her bow drawn? However, this whole thing just feels like it's dropped in the middle of the Dark Swan arc to lighten things up a bit. I think maybe they can't have the main cast being too upbeat because that comes off badly regarding Emma, so their thought was to add Merida, show us some crazy backstory that kids/people who've seen Brave might enjoy and then have the fun fairy tale adventures of Red Riding Hood, Mulan & Merida.

[YaddaYadda]

Wanted to stay away since the episode was being screened and all. I read a couple of recaps that were vague enough though. 

 

For one, I'm even less sure Emma is the one who cast the curse. With the whole heart being crushed and everyone walking around very much alive. Either we really have a David situation going, where someone's heart was crushed and they're alive because of someone else. 

 

My working theory is that Arthur is the other person that remembers exactly what went down (if not Guinevere too). Putting someone up to stealing and then giving them a potion to make them "vanish" or whatever it is that happened doesn't scream I don't remember a single thing. Plus the whole idea of rebuilding Camelot in Storybrooke? I would think that you wanna figure out a way to get back to Camelot. Instead, all of Camelot was transported in Storybrooke.

 

Emma has zero reasons to bring these people with her and everyone else. Why would she? She can bring the sword with her. She doesn't need Arthur for that. Plus I think there was talk of the triangle of doom (Arthur/Gwen/Lancelot) between David and Arthur on their adventure? When did Arthur stop being pure of heart? Chalk me up as completely heartbroken over this one, though I'm sure Gwen is the one behind all of this. One of the scenes that struck me as incredibly odd was at the end of 5x02 when Gwen and Arthur are talking and he takes his sword out and puts it in the table. The guy sounds desperate, he needs comforting. She put her hand on the sword instead of her husband's shoulder. 

 

About the Captain Swan scenes...

 

I think there are different ways of being supportive to someone you love. The situation Emma and Hook are in is far from easy. What's playing against him is that he has no clue what went down in Camelot. He has no idea why she embraced the darkness, he knows nothing of the chain of events that led to that, so it really puts him at a disadvantage. Hook has lived long enough and has seen the Dark One at work to know how it operates. 

 

I don't believe for a second that he loves her any less because she's the Dark One. I think he just refuses to engage in her little mind games. How easy for him to fall into this thing with Emma where she doesn't have to play Savior for the whole town, where it can be just the two of them. Him calling her out is okay. And yeah, it's passive-aggressive, but still, Emma is addicted to her power, and she needs a bit of a reality check. 

 

"I loved you" is harsh. But what would he have accomplished by telling her he still loves her? She still would've tried to manipulate him for her end game.

 

Given what we know from 5x08, it sounds to me like he is believing to see the best in her. He's not only putting his life in her hands, but he's also giving her something that seems to be important.

 

Also, well played writers with the whole Mr. Gold thing and the clean slate. But Emma probably bit off more than she can chew with this one since Rumple is reverting to his pre-cursed self. It should be rather entertaining.

[scenicbyway]

I'm not sure Emma cast the curse either.  She does say that she designed the curse with no savior, but that doesn't mean that she cast it.  It really doesn't make sense that she'd bring all of Camelot.  I could see Arthur or Guinevere doing it though if they though Camelot would be imminently destroyed.  Perhaps they share one heart?

[KingOfHearts]

I'm over-analyzing this, and it probably means nothing, but the way everyone returns to Storybrooke is nothing like the curse. There's no clouds, it's a gold flash, everyone wakes up disoriented at Granny's as opposed to being in their "normal" positions. Storybrooke was already materialized. I suppose you could take many liberties with what the caster wants, but it still doesn't follow the familiar formula. I could believe Emma took their memories, but a Dark Curse is a stretch.

[Hookian]

I think Nimue is the one that cast the curse, the whole being turned into a tree upon stepping out of the town is a dead give away.

 

I say she possessed Emma because she's the original DO and crushed the heart of thing she loves most, Merlin.

[kitticup]

Ok I've been thinking about the spoilers. I can see Hook agreeing to go to the underworld in lieu of Emma. I could see maybe Davy Jones wanting Hook to be his replacement or for him make Hook part of his crew. It may be why Hook isn't actually killed in order to enter the underworld.

My crack idea which will never happen but makes me cackle with mad delight what if Persephone (assuming there is one and she is the villian) is a dead/spirit Cora. Cora is truly frightening and you would not want her running the underworld. Heck, you never want a Mills woman to run anything ( think Zelena in Oz, Regina in the EF, Cora in wonderland). I could see her charming Hades or Davy and rule with an iron fist. if her spirit self (for lack of a better word) is with Davy, it really twists that family tree into something from a very dark nightmare Forrest. I would love to see Cora telling Zelena that she was the daughter she should have kept and raised, while Regina watches. Of course Cora's powers would be limited in the world of the living but she could still appear.

As to who should be the hero, I just cannot get on board with Rumple being the one to pull Excalibur. I can see Emma setting him up to do so but failing. I actually think I would prefer Regina to pull the sword over Rumple and that is saying a lot. My order of preference as to who should pull the sword:

1. A rejuvenated Snow who is strong and fierce, motivated by a need to protect her daughter and kingdom. I want to see the old Snow back. Good doesn't have to be boring. See captain America.

2. David - He loves Emma and tries to do the right thing. I want him to be a hero again.

3. Belle - I would love to she her declare that darkness must be destroyed, thus becoming the hero she always wanted to be, while redeeming the Disney character and letting her save Rumple.

4. Henry/Hook because they love Emma and are acting on that love.

5...n Basically everyone else in Storybrook

N->infinity: Robin, Zelena, Regina rumple. I waver on the order of the last two.

Edited October 11, 2015 by kitticup

[KingOfHearts]

Yeah if we do go to the Underworld, I'd like to see Cora. Surely they could do something better than that stupid seance on 3B.

Edited October 11, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[PixiePaws1]

I think Nimue is the one that cast the curse, the whole being turned into a tree upon stepping out of the town is a dead give away.

 

With all my negativity over this godawful arc of sacrificing yourself, and the happy ending of your child, your parents and the man that loves you beyond words, results in turning you into the most evil of all evils, I have never thought for one second that Emma cast the Dark Curse that brought them back to SB. Both Henry and Killian are still alive.

 

One of the pieces of info that we are sorely in  need of is ‘The Prophecy’. (which I think is what Killian has gotten hold of  that results in him up on the roof further down the track).

Given that Merlin told little Ems not to pull the sword out of the stone (and I have no problem with how he crossed realms to do this- I think Merlin had a power similar to astral projection so it wasn’t his physical presence that appeared to her) - then we are left with 2 possibilities:

1- He really doesn’t want her to pull the sword out and remake Excalibur (maybe because he‘s seen the means by which she would achieve this OR it runs counter productive to getting rid of the Darkness);

 

Or more likely

 

2 - He is using reverse psychology and wants her to pull the sword out because it sets in motion events that WILL get rid of the Darkness - I don’t know yet whether he cares if Emma lives or dies in the process)

 

My reasoning for option 2 is this. I do believe Nimue cast the curse to get the Dark One out of Camelot once Emma fully embraced the  Darkness and SHE sent the sword with Emma - which is why Emma appeared so surprised it was there. Nimue’s motivation for this is likely one of these:

 

A) - She wants the Dark One power for herself without actually becoming the DO or having to constantly control the current DO which is ALWAYS tricky; or

 

B) - She was losing/ had lost control of events in Camelot due to Merlin’s interference.

 

I also think whoever cast the Curse is masquerading as earworm Rumple in SB (because I think once she embraced the Darkness he should no longer manifest).

 

I also think that whoever cast the Dark Curse did it in collusion with Emma. She did say she built the Curse. I think Emma had to because SHE wanted to get back to SB  for her own reasons (probably Merlin‘s prophecy), and because with all her fully embraced Dark One powers she could easily have stopped the curse from being cast. She’s the one that added the memory wipe .

Edited October 11, 2015 by PixiePaws1

[YaddaYadda]

Nimue is a very viable candidate for the curse with Dopey turning into a tree. Does she want to be the Dark One? If she's not dead, did Merlin preserve her? Is she the Lady of the Lake? This would make Merlin look like an even bigger idiot than he is, imo.

 

I'm still going off on the assumption that 5x08 "Birth" is about Nimue giving birth to someone. If that's the case and she cast the curse, then maybe that's the heart she used for it.

 

And to enter fanfic territory, if they're really going to the Underworld as opposed to "Hell" being a metaphor for something else, and Hook is the one who is stuck down there, they can have Captain Swan share a soul.

[myril]

What kind of Merida, Red and Mulan adventure could possibly relate to the DarkSwan plot?  I like all of these characters, but I wish they would just stop with Red.  She hasn't been regularly on the show since season 2?  Having her pop up once or twice every other season doesn't make any sense. 

 

I said it before, I'll say it again: they should have just recast Red.

 

Think it was not a problem of availability of Meghan Ory, it was more of a writing decision. Sometimes during season 2 they had a change of ideas and Red turned into an afterthought. Meghan was looking for opportunities to do more, understandably I think, not for everyone career, work is just about good money, and they thankfully let her go when she got a chance for more. Intelligence, the show Meghan went to, lasted though just 13 episodes and got no second season. Don't see what recasting should have changed - unless to cast someone fully content to show up for a few seconds every now and then in the background and have one or two pivotal moments of a minute of dialogue every half season. Aside of the time she was tied up with Intelligence,  that was during season 3, didn't see that Meghan was tons of busy with other projects, at least not film projects.

The prospect of Mulan and Red being back on the show for some moments, maybe for some episodes even, is the one thing that keeps me hanging around for a bit, aside of my interest in studying fandoms. I care by now zilch about the adventures or troubles of the Mills-Rumpelstiltskin-Snowing-Swan clan or family, the past season finally killed that for me. And at best it amuses me somewhat to randomly take a look at how they fail with making good use of the Arthurian tales or probably will mess up more Greek mythology, it doesn't seriously whet my interest. The story of Red was for me the landmark, when curiosity and enjoying watching a (more or less) new take on fairy tales turned into fan love (which by now is gone, after a nearly 2 seasons cooling off period). As Mulan's character gave hope for more diversity on the show.

 

So it sounds like Mulan, Red and Merida will have some nice side story, adventure in the two hour sweeps week episode. I'll gladly take that. Might make it easier for me to ignore the rest of the season, when they focus their story on this double episode. Although if Mulan is or will get involved romantically with either Red or Merida in that time, that could be taken as Sweep Week Lesbian Kiss trope, but IMO the show runners are so ignorant in such matters, that they even might do it. I wouldn't mind to see Mulan and Red ride at the end of the episode into the sunset to go (back) on their own happy adventures and leave the Mills-Rumpelstiltskin-Snowing-Swan mess behind once and for all.

Edited October 11, 2015 by myril

[Spartan Girl]

I'm not going to lie, I read the 5x03 full recap, and I'm glad I did because it confirmed everything I suspected out where this arc is going (i.e. Arthur and Guinevere are shady). So I guess I'm just going to skip this week and only tune in for the preview at the end.

[KingOfHearts]

 

(i.e. Arthur and Guinevere are shady)

Maybe they're in cahoots with Blue and Belle's dad!

[formerlyfreedom]

Temporarily locked, due to repeated episode posting that's occurred after the last two episodes. Will reopen sometime Monday morning.

 

In the meantime, discuss the episode in the Siege Perilous episode topic please.

[Mari]

Last night, someone on Twitter asked Espenson about the scene with Emma and Hook, saying it made it seem like he didn't love Emma any longer, and shouldn't he because Emma's still in there. Espenson responded with "Does it? Is she? These are the questions you should've asking"

So, with that in mind, is it possible that Emma's not in charge of the Dark Swan body?

Edited October 12, 2015 by Mari

[KingOfHearts]

“He has no magic, but he carries the wisdom of everything he’s gone through,”

Rumple has no magic? Regina and Cora didn't need a Dagger or inherent ability to use magic. Why is Rumple different?

Edited October 12, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

Emma's new hobby is making dreamcatchers! That promo of her sitting in front of the window with all those dreamcatchers hanging there? Her life has turned into one giant nightmare.

 

 

Last night, someone on Twitter asked Espenson about the scene with Emma and Hook, saying it made it seem like he didn't love Emma any longer, and shouldn't he because Emma's still in there. Espenson responded with "Does it? Is she? These are the questions you should've asking"

So, with that in mind, is it possible that Emma's not in charge of the Dark Swan body?

About this, I think we have to ask the question what the hell is going on with Emma. 

 

I really think Emma has a different agenda going on and that's where the whole trust talk was coming from. 

 

Yesterday's episode raised a lot of questions, like Rumple's line about Emma crushing Hook's heart (under her boot), and then she proceeding to turning the sword into dust. I got the impression that that was literal, and since we know that the curse was cast with a crushed heart, it kind of makes me wonder about the possibilities that this might've happened/nearly happened. For the record, I don't think Emma has done anything to him. 

 

But between the whole Dopey turning into a tree and what's going on with Emma, I got to wonder how much Emma is responsible for. I really wonder how much Nimue is responsible for.

[RadioGirl27]

Yesterday's episode raised a lot of questions, like Rumple's line about Emma crushing Hook's heart (under her boot), and then she proceeding to turning the sword into dust. I got the impression that that was literal, and since we know that the curse was cast with a crushed heart, it kind of makes me wonder about the possibilities that this might've happened/nearly happened.

 

There is also this tweet from Jane Espenson:

his heart is on the line. And maybe... Oh, i better not say too much.

I really hope we are not facing another case of a shared heart, the first one was ridiculous enough.

Edited October 12, 2015 by RadioGirl27

[Mari]

About this, I think we have to ask the question what the hell is going on with Emma.

But between the whole Dopey turning into a tree and what's going on with Emma, I got to wonder how much Emma is responsible for. I really wonder how much Nimue is responsible for.

I keep wondering if we're combining spoilers into "Emma crushes a heart and cast the curse."

Wasn't there spoiler that Emma would crush someone's heart, and a separate spoiler about a curse being cast? Is it possible that whatever major curse was cast, was cast by someone else? And that whatever heart Emma crushes is separate? (Or even, based on comments about this last episode, be a metaphorical crushing?)

I can't find it again, but someone speculated in the episode thread that Arthur cast the curse. Have we seen Lancelot or Guinevere in any Storybrooke spoilers?

Edited October 12, 2015 by Mari

[Shanna Marie]

Guinevere is in Storybrooke. She and Arthur were reunited, and she was the one who noticed that Excalibur was gone.

 

But the way they're phrasing things, it does sound like they're hinting at something about Hook's heart. But wouldn't he be able to feel the difference if his heart weren't in his chest? He knows what that feels like.

[RadioGirl27]

Wasn't there spoiler that Emma would crush someone's heart, and a separate spoiler about a curse being cast? Is it possible that whatever major curse was cast, was cast by someone else? And that whatever heart Emma crushes is separate?

I remember the spoiler about a heart being crushed, but I don't remember it being by Emma.

 

I can't find it again, but someone speculated in the episode thread that Arthur cast the curse. Have we seen Lancelot or Guinevere in any Storybrooke spoilers?

Guinevere is in Storybrooke, she was there last episode and she is in the BTS pics from episode 5. But I don't remember any pic of Lancelot in Storybrooke.

But the way they're phrasing things, it does sound like they're hinting at something about Hook's heart. But wouldn't he be able to feel the difference if his heart weren't in his chest? He knows what that feels like.

I don't think he is heartless, that would be repetitive. I've seen a lot of people thinking that he is either carrying Emma's heart or, at least, half of it.

 

From TVLine

“The internal conflict remains a huge thing for her,” Horowitz said. “She is dark, but she does have feelings for Hook, and those things are at war within her and really are pushing her in the action she’s going to be taking next.”

I wonder what this means. Maybe she is trying to bring his memories back, so he can understand what's going on. Or maybe she is going to punish him. You never know with this show.

Edited October 12, 2015 by RadioGirl27

[Amerilla]

I really hope we are not facing another case of a shared heart, the first one was ridiculous enough.

 

Nah. TS;TW would never, ever recycle some lame plot....oh, wait. Of course they would.

[KingOfHearts]

 

  Of course they would.

I almost want to summon the Fury to snatch those people avoiding the heart-crushing price.

Edited October 12, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

I have no trouble believing that they'd have characters share a heart again. I just don't see it happening with Emma and Hook this season. They've tried for a true love kiss two or three times now, and both have failed. Emma's already struggling in the Camelot flashbacks to control the evilness--it just seems like it's too big a leap at this point, and would be too big a confirmation of official true love status. It seems more likely they'd do that for what they think is the last season.

If we're doing shared heart again, I really think it's more likely to be Regina and Robin. In the show's mind, they're a more established and official couple, and many of their big romantic scenes have been do-overs of others' scenes.

Oh--and with the magic bean gone, maybe everyone came to Storybrooke via bean, and the curse is purely on their memories.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Mari

[YaddaYadda]

I keep wondering if we're combining spoilers into "Emma crushes a heart and cast the curse."

Wasn't there spoiler that Emma would crush someone's heart, and a separate spoiler about a curse being cast? Is it possible that whatever major curse was cast, was cast by someone else? And that whatever heart Emma crushes is separate? (Or even, based on comments about this last episode, be a metaphorical crushing?)

I can't find it again, but someone speculated in the episode thread that Arthur cast the curse. Have we seen Lancelot or Guinevere in any Storybrooke spoilers?

 

I don't know about Guinevere since we've barely seen her, but after last night's episode, I'm convinced that Arthur had nothing to do with casting the curse. If Guinevere did it, then Lancelot is as good as gone. And after their final scene in 5x02, I'm pretty sure Gwen isn't with Arthur because she loves him. But I don't think she had anything to do with it either. 

 

I think the whole thing with the curse and crushed heart is that we tend to associate it with the Dark Curse. Regina crushed her father's heart, and Snow David's, and Rumple didn't want Zelena to cast the curse because he was the thing she loved most according to him. And Rumple wouldn't have been able to cast the curse himself because Bae wasn't there and he believed Belle to be dead.

 

About 5x05...

 

Dreamcatchers, it seems that Emma is making a whole bunch of them, so I wonder if she doesn't have memories in each other of them locked in individual ones?

 

And I think Henry is being used as decoy to draw Emma away from her house so that Hook, Robin and Regina can go in the house and see what it is that she's hiding.

 

I've been trying to figure out what kind of adventure that Regina and Hook can have that has to do with flashbacks to his childhood, but there has to be a reason they're choosing an episode that might be the winter finale for that. I'm guessing Regina will be driving his story as opposed to what we're used to seeing (I'm not even sure this makes sense, but whatever). I am guessing though that those two will find out about some ridiculous prophecy though.

 

ETA - 

 

I have no trouble believing that they'd have characters share a heart again. I just don't see it happening with Emma and Hook this season. They've tried for a true love kiss two or three times now, and both have failed. Emma's already struggling in the Camelot flashbacks to control the evilness--it just seems like it's too big a leap at this point, and would be too big a confirmation of official true love status. It seems more likely they'd do that for what they think is the last season.

 

Ok, but what if his heart gets crushed and she gives him his heart and it's the whole reason he's still alive? I know it sounds out there. My friend and I were talking after the show last night and she was saying how if his heart got crushed, then he should be dead, but because Emma embraces the darkness, she can just stick her heart in his chest and she lives because she's got magic and stuff. But once the darkness is gone, can't do that anymore.

 

I don't think the darkness will be destroyed with a TLK. I think the ship has pretty much sailed at this point and I don't see the writers wanting to go there anyway.

Edited October 12, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[LizaD]

I think one of the Camelot people cast the curse especially with the whole let's redo Camelot in Storybrooke. Emma pulled a Zelena and hijacked part of it.

 

Not sure if people caught this from the NYCC stuff but A&E "spoiled" that Merlin is a good force which damn it. This just means he's an idiot and a lame duck with all that most powerful magic stuff.

 

Also JM said Dark Emma's goals are for the "right" reasons but wrong method and that would go with Merlin's warning because I didn't think it made sense in the context. He warned her not to pull Excalibur even if it's the right thing to do cause bad shit would go down. So far it sure doesn't look like her "snuffing out the light" mission is for anything good. So I'm thinking is "snuffing out the light" herself? As in OG Emma? And since the DO is currently housed in her, taking out light Emma also takes out DS? Would they go that dark with a quasi-suicide mission? I'm not saying it's going to work and they'll come up with some contrived loop hole at the end with St. Victim ultimately saving the day. Otherwise I can't see why the Excalibur mission is a right thing to do. And why the fuck is Merlin so useless?

[Amerilla]

Rumple has no magic? Regina and Cora didn't need a Dagger or inherent ability to use magic. Why is Rumple different?

 

Because, Plot.

 

You could make the argument that, without the DO as his personal OnStar guidance system, his native cowardice and self-doubt block Rumpel's ability to produce magic.

 

As DO, Rumpel taught Cora and Regina to tap the bottomless well of rage to juice their ability to do damage, but I don't think that pre-DO Rumpel ever had that in him. He was scared, sure, but he never seemed particularly angry at his lot in life. Fear may not be the proper motivator for making dark magic. Or any magic.

 

Or, you know, Plot.

[sharky]

I also really hope there's nothing going on with Hook's heart. He almost had it crushed once by Gold last year, he had someone controlling him with it last year, and we've had a shared heart already. I just think Hook's heart has been man-handled way too much already.

[scenicbyway]

I'm actually wondering if Emma knows what happened in Camelot.  She's been asked by Henry and Hook and just gives a vague "sorry, I can't tell you."  Perhaps she can't tell them because her memories are gone as well?  All she knows is that she's the Dark One so that must mean that their mission failed.  Emma's obsession with snuffing out the light and free the darkness makes no sense either because the whole reason she became the Dark One was to contain it and save it from taking everyone out.

 

Whomever put Merlin in the tree is the one who threw everyone in Storybrooke and took their memories.  My money is on Arthur or Guinevere, who seems to want to protect his kingdom at all costs.  I can't quite figure out why he bothered to save Charming, perhaps he figured out how to get the mushroom out so thought he might as well save him?  Arthur didn't want the gang talking Merlin through the mushroom which makes me think that he doesn't want him out of the tree.  Arthur is just after the dagger to make Excalibur whole.  I wouldn't be surprised if he thinks it will save his marriage if Excalibur is whole.

 

I think Merlin is even less important than the Snow Queen was last season.  It's just a diversion until someone does something in the last episode that will save the day.

 

 

 

I think the whole thing with the curse and crushed heart is that we tend to associate it with the Dark Curse. Regina crushed her father's heart, and Snow David's, and Rumple didn't want Zelena to cast the curse because he was the thing she loved most according to him. And Rumple wouldn't have been able to cast the curse himself because Bae wasn't there and he believed Belle to be dead.

 

About 5x05...

 

Dreamcatchers, it seems that Emma is making a whole bunch of them, so I wonder if she doesn't have memories in each other of them locked in individual ones?

 

And I think Henry is being used as decoy to draw Emma away from her house so that Hook, Robin and Regina can go in the house and see what it is that she's hiding.

 

I've been trying to figure out what kind of adventure that Regina and Hook can have that has to do with flashbacks to his childhood, but there has to be a reason they're choosing an episode that might be the winter finale for that. I'm guessing Regina will be driving his story as opposed to what we're used to seeing (I'm not even sure this makes sense, but whatever). I am guessing though that those two will find out about some ridiculous prophecy though.

 

ETA - 

 

Ok, but what if his heart gets crushed and she gives him his heart and it's the whole reason he's still alive? I know it sounds out there. My friend and I were talking after the show last night and she was saying how if his heart got crushed, then he should be dead, but because Emma embraces the darkness, she can just stick her heart in his chest and she lives because she's got magic and stuff. But once the darkness is gone, can't do that anymore.

 

I don't think the darkness will be destroyed with a TLK. I think the ship has pretty much sailed at this point and I don't see the writers wanting to go there anyway.

I don't think the darkness will be destroyed with a TLK either, if that was the case, it would've worked in Camelot.  Although I did like Rumple's suggestion that she kiss Excalibur.  I do think Emma will have to save herself but the way they are talking about the finale with Regina and Hook it will make it look like one of those two will save Emma until the last moment.

 

I like the idea of Henry being a decoy so Regina, Robin and Hook can break into Emma's.  Won't Rumple still be in the basement though?

[HoodlumSheep]

I'm wondering if Belle will end up at Emma's house too. A&E mentioned Belle thinks Emma is responsible for Rumple's disappearance, so maybe she'll run into Captain Hood while they're trying to break into the basement.

[Amerilla]

And Snow did magic back in season 2 with the scroll that had Emma's name on it. So it seems that magic can be learned by anyone who isn't born magical.

 

Using someone else's recipe does not necessarily make you a chef. It just means you can read a recipe.

 

I like the idea of Henry being a decoy so Regina, Robin and Hook can break into Emma's.  Won't Rumple still be in the basement though?

 

A while back, there were so spoilers that Gold was around town alone. I can see him being freed and then running off to hide, which would seem to be what a magical and fearful man would do.  

[KAOS Agent]

 

I like the idea of Henry being a decoy so Regina, Robin and Hook can break into Emma's.  Won't Rumple still be in the basement though?

 

It's a terrible idea to use a child to betray Emma like that, which is why I know that's what they're doing. It will only be okay with me if Emma knows that's exactly what's going on and it's what she wants. She's not stupid and knows her kid. Rumpel knew Henry was trying to play him too. The way I figure it will go down is Henry offers to help Emma, she leaves with him setting up a fake room behind the door (make it look hard to get into) and then plants dreamcatchers in there like she's hiding them from everyone. Regina is seen holding one at her house, so that seems to be very definitely what they get from breaking into Emma's place. They all then assume that Emma is keeping these from them to continue to have memory loss when it was all a set up by Emma and no one suspects because these people are really, really stupid.

[PixiePaws1]

About 5x05...

Dreamcatchers, it seems that Emma is making a whole bunch of them, so I wonder if she doesn't have memories in each other of them locked in individual ones?

.

oh that is a clever theory. ....which ep is that one with the fluffy scene of Emma and Killian smooching it up in tge rose garden? Could that be a dreamcatcher memory to torment him?

[scenicbyway]

It's a terrible idea to use a child to betray Emma like that, which is why I know that's what they're doing. It will only be okay with me if Emma knows that's exactly what's going on and it's what she wants. She's not stupid and knows her kid. Rumpel knew Henry was trying to play him too. The way I figure it will go down is Henry offers to help Emma, she leaves with him setting up a fake room behind the door (make it look hard to get into) and then plants dreamcatchers in there like she's hiding them from everyone. Regina is seen holding one at her house, so that seems to be very definitely what they get from breaking into Emma's place. They all then assume that Emma is keeping these from them to continue to have memory loss when it was all a set up by Emma and no one suspects because these people are really, really stupid.

But how are they betraying Emma by trying to find out what's behind the mystery door?  Pretty much every plot on this show includes breaking into somewhere, normally led by Emma.  Is it betrayal if they are trying to save her?  I can actually see Henry coming up with this entire scenario if he finds out about the door and their suspcisions .

[Souris]

Emma's new hobby is making dreamcatchers! That promo of her sitting in front of the window with all those dreamcatchers hanging there? Her life has turned into one giant nightmare.

 

I think there's one dreamcatcher per person who went to Camelot, and they contain their memories.

 

I keep wondering if we're combining spoilers into "Emma crushes a heart and cast the curse."

Wasn't there spoiler that Emma would crush someone's heart, and a separate spoiler about a curse being cast? Is it possible that whatever major curse was cast, was cast by someone else? And that whatever heart Emma crushes is separate? (Or even, based on comments about this last episode, be a metaphorical crushing?)

 

At NYCC, A&E (can't remember which) said that someone's loved one's heart was crushed for the curse. EW is the only media outlet that specified that EMMA would crush someone's heart. I suspect that Natalie Abrams may have leaped to a conclusion there, unless she was told something else personally.

[YaddaYadda]

oh that is a clever theory. ....which ep is that one with the fluffy scene of Emma and Killian smooching it up in tge rose garden? Could that be a dreamcatcher memory to torment him?

 

Remember some of the stuff the set stalkers posted after seeing the filming at Regina's house for 5x05? One of the lines was Regina telling Emma that she was being selfish and Emma replied that she didn't have a choice.

 

If Emma was being commanded to do certain things, then this line takes on a whole new meaning. She wouldn't have a choice because the choice was taken from her,

 

I don't know that she would use that memory to torment him since it's happening in 5x04. 

 

The thing with this curse though is that it doesn't seem like it's all that strong, because subconsciously, these people feel some of these things are familiar. Violet with the song she listened to and David with the mushroom. 

 

I think one of the most interesting things that came out of NYCC was that Jen said that Emma is still the Savior. She is both. So even though the curse wasn't built around a Savior, the Savior is still in town, and she can still break the curse if she chooses to do so. Or at least that's the way I see it.

[mjgchick]

The next episode is probably when Killian tells her he loves her and Dark Emma will be a sad sack for like 5 seconds before going back to torturing Rumple.

[KingOfHearts]

Maybe Dark Swan took a page out of Isaac's book and locked Light Emma up somewhere. It's not Dark Emma and Light Emma - it's Dark One Emma and Savior Emma.

 

 

Then, 5B will deal with Regina confronting her past in the Underworld, and finally learning some self-realization.

Sounds more like wishful thinking than an actual theory. ;)

Edited October 12, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

...but the way they are talking about the finale with Regina and Hook it will make it look like one of those two will save Emma until the last moment.

 

The last episode of this arc is called "broken heart", so I assume someone's heart is being crushed either in Storybrooke or in Camelot. There's an interesting theory floating around about the mid-season finale that Hook will be the Price Emma has to pay for pulling the sword out of the stone. However, Regina steps in at the last minute to save Hook so Emma can have her Happy Ending. Then, 5B will deal with Regina confronting her past in the Underworld, and finally learning some self-realization. 

[Mathius]

Then, 5B will deal with Regina confronting her past in the Underworld, and finally learning some self-realization.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA No.

Everyone was sure that 3B and 4B would finally do that for her, and they didn't, if anything she's gotten worse. As long as the writers have their perma-boner for her, it's never happening.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Mathius

[mjgchick]

Would Regina sacrificed herself so Hook doesn't have to when she knows this will leave Henry and Robin devastated? Also would Hook allow Regina to do that knowing it would hurt Henry to lose another mom?

[HoodlumSheep]

I don't want Hook owing Regina anything. Knowing our luck, we'll get a Regina sacrifice scene like the 4b's finale.

[Rumsy4]

Would Regina sacrificed herself so Hook doesn't have to when she knows this will leave Henry and Robin devastated? 

 

Technically, that's what Emma did. So, this would be payback from Regina's end. 

 

 

Knowing our luck, we'll get a Regina sacrifice scene like the 4b's finale

 

Exactly. The writers love painting Regina as some unselfish saint who is the Biggest Victim Ever. So, I can see them giving yet another climactic scene to Regina. Knowing our luck, Regina will be the one to pull the Sword out of the Stone as well. 

 

Everyone was sure that 3B and 4B would finally do that for her, and they didn't, if anything she's gotten worse. As long as the writers have their perma-boner for her, it's never happening.

 

They do seem to be setting up something along those lines with Regina's hypocritical statements to Zelena. Hope springs eternal? ;-D

[KAOS Agent]

 

But how are they betraying Emma by trying to find out what's behind the mystery door?  Pretty much every plot on this show includes breaking into somewhere, normally led by Emma.  Is it betrayal if they are trying to save her?  I can actually see Henry coming up with this entire scenario if he finds out about the door and their suspcisions .

 

If they don't like Emma using manipulative mind games, sending in her son to be all hey mom, let's do a fun operation like the old days in an attempt to let everyone else break into her house is an extremely low blow and just blatantly hurtful to Emma because Henry isn't trying to spend time with his mom (which incidentally might help her given her reaction in "The Price"), he's using her feelings for him to get what he wants. Emma doing it to Hook wasn't acceptable and everyone agreeing that Henry should do it to Emma would be equally gross.

[nksarmi]

So without reading pages of spoilers - can someone PM me and let me know if Emma will be done with the Dark Swan crap by mid-season or if it's lasting all year?  I'm pissed they are trying to ruin Arthur for me after pulling Robin Hood through the mud.  I'm not sure I can get past the "Regina's boyfriend got her evil sister pregnant" plot at all, but I do know that Emma has to stop being the Dark One before I can watch another episode.  Was just wondering if I should check back at all for the rest of the season.