S05.E08: Coda

[Pete Martell]

I don't pay attention to who writes which episodes, but I've consistently read criticism of what Kirkman is involved with.  It's interesting because I frequently read that in The Game of Thrones, the author of the source material writes the best episode each season.  I don't like what I've seen of Kirkman from TTD.  He seems smug and he has no rapport with the actors.

 

I do think GRRM writes good episodes, and he has an ear for some of the show's characters that no one else does (especially Cersei), but it gets confusing, because his episodes have repeatedly had material that was written by other people and filmed for other episodes, some of his material is put in other episodes, etc.

 

These are the TWD episodes Kirkman has written - "Vatos," "What Lies Ahead," "Beside the Dying Fire," "Made to Suffer," "Isolation," "After," "Strangers."

 

I can't say most of these are favorites of mine (many of them are choppy and feel very comic book-ish, complete with cartoon gore, violence, and OTT outbursts), but "After" is one of my favorite episodes, and one of the very best episodes Carl and Michonne ever had.

 

I think Kirkman is something of a bogeyman. He's been there from day 1 and the show has varied wildly in tone since that time. I have a hard time believing he's always been responsible for the show's mistakes, and has no bearing in its successes. My main criticism of him is that he so obviously wants comic stuff in the show even when it probably has no business being there. For me, Abraham/Rosita/Eugene (although I like Rosita and at times I'm OK with Abraham and Eugene) just stick out, and if Kirkman weren't involved with the show, I have my doubts that they and the whole paper-thin "cure" plot ever would have been on TV.

 

He just seems naturally smarmy and he can't read a room. I think he can be OK with some actors, but he shouldn't have been on Talking Dead with Emily Kinney. She was falling apart and he clearly had no idea what to do. I don't think anyone actually took the time beforehand to see whether or not she was too fragile to go on. To be fair to him, most of the night was clearly planned to be lighthearted and silly (those awful video questions), so this was the tone that was set before she was finally able to sit down. But I think he just has no social skills and the Talking Dead producers messed up in causing such weird tonal shifts with their choices of guests and not realizing Kinney was having a breakdown.

Exactly why I felt so awful for Emily Kinney having to sit next to him in the midst of her little emotional breakdown...

 

"Smug" is definitely the right word, I and I don't trust him to do right by characters for whom it seems I have greater affection and respect than he does---and they are his own creations. I think it's weird how he giggles about how "everybody dies," and doesn't seem aware that it's those characters that keep an awful lot of us coming back in spite of the gore, instead of vice-versa. Not that I can't handle it if characters die--any of the characters, really, if it's done properly (properly for Rick would of course involve my weeping body draped gracefully over his as he confessed with his dying breath that he had always secretly loved me too...and I'd need creative input as to the lighting and music)--Kirkman just seems so callous to the human element of the story, and so jazzed and impressed with himself over the gore and hopelessness.  There's nothing wrong with a zombie story that's just about horror and gore, but it's not something I would ever watch. No one who knows me can believe I watch TWD as it is--for me it's all about the humanity, survival, and relationships.  Kirkman doesn't seem to get that at all.

 

I think Kirkman gets it, to a point. He wrote most of the source material that has caused an emotional response from viewers. I just don't think he can break away from the shell of the whole thing being comic fun. I think he may also use that to separate himself from what he writes, because it's very heavy stuff. It just does not flow well in interviews. 

[CletusMusashi]

Did you say the Fonz jumping a shark?  I'm IN!!!

It would probably be jumping a zombie.

And the cool motorcycle rider in leather would probably be Dixonzie.

But I could watch that.

 

Rick: "Can you see if there's any Walkers ahead of us. I would... but... I'm waiting for a phone call from Beth."

Dixonzie: "Ayyyy, Ricky... looks like it's zombiemundo out there."

Judith (who has grown up in the zombie apocalypse:) "I could light them on fire. I like to start fires. Can I set them on fire, please?"

Dixonzie: "No, Shortkick, I think this situation calls for a little less hot, and a lot more cool. Ayyyyy!"

Abe, (mishearing): "You called? Wokka wokka wokka!"

(Meanwhile, all of the zombies are slashed to pieces by MIchonnezie.)

Edited December 6, 2014 by CletusMusashi

[GreyBunny]

It's not Kirkman's problem if Emily Kinney broke down in tears, nor is it his responsibility to do anything.  He had his own job to do and his own things to talk about.  If Emily couldn't pull herself together, Chris Hardwick was the one who needed to step in.  Emily isn't a child, she's 29 and has had other acting jobs.  By this time she should know how these things work and be prepared for it.

 

As for giggling about "everyone dies" - good.  I like writers who aren't afraid to kill off their characters, even their own favorites.  Some of the stories I've been the most disappointed in have turned out to have characters who were supposed to die but the author changed his or her mind because of fear of audience reaction.   

Edited December 6, 2014 by GreyBunny

[Pete Martell]

Every show peaks.  (Well, there's NCIS, but that's something that defies every law known to man.)

 

I've been meaning during these last few months to start a thread asking for everyone to pick a point in time when TWD will come stuttering to a halt.  End of Season 5, probably 6, just because of momentum.  I think if it makes it to 7 that'll be something.  (Now, understand, i don't want the show to end -- but I see it happening.  Hell, it doesn't matter what I want; all shows end.  Well, except for NCIS.)

 

The problem is laid out in a sentence we've all used when talking about Rick and crew -- they keep going in circles.  4 and 1/2 seasons and we're nowhere -- literally and figuratively (and on the map).  Sure, there have been "exciting Walker kills."  Whooppee!!.  How about character development or a sense of urgency?  (There's been a little of both, but not nearly enough.)

 

Of course, the show may last longer than what I think, but it won't be because it's great entertainment.  It'll be because AMC will see it as a money-maker, regardless of merit.  (And here's where I mention NCIS again.)

 

{I was way too rash when I first wrote this.  The show will definitely make it to Season 7.  The actor's contracts will play a role (so to speak).  But after that . . .}

 

Most shows don't last 7 seasons because they remain great entertainment. Most of the time they're just coasting on past glories. I assume if TWD lasts that long, it would be the same, but who knows. 

 

I don't know if it's about peaking with TWD. If you believe all the chattering classes in between their dissertations about how Mad Men taught America about feminism and civil rights and ushered in the Golden Age of television, TWD peaked after the pilot, and would never be of value again. Or TWD bought the farm when they were on the farm. 

 

Viewers have stuck by the show through many periods they were told not to, where they were repeatedly told that if they watched the show they were idiots, they just wanted to see brains being devoured, had no taste, and they were bad people because they weren't watching (insert low-rated critical show pony here - Hannibal, Breaking Bad before the last few seasons, Mad Men, whatever - I think my favorite is when people pout about Firefly getting lower ratings, even though Firefly aired a full decade earlier). They still tuned in through good stories and absolutely crappy storylines. That doesn't last forever. Frankly, I'm shocked it's lasted this long. I really have to assume there will be a big loss from the rest of season 5 on. I guess we'll see. I'm still in disbelief that they got a ratings increase after that lackluster season 3 finale, where some of the people I really enjoyed talking about the show with quit and have never come back.

 

I think character development has been the show's main strength, and likely the main reason they've maintained an audience. Even when the stories stretch too far or make little sense, you have very unique characterizations that let the actors breathe and stretch their abilities, and aren't like most of TV. The likes of Carol (who in most TV would be written as a bitter shrew or a mournful victim, likely in a conventionally attractive female lead's shadow), Tara (never made into complete comic relief, or a generic bad-ass, or the token lesbian), Sasha (given the man's role in most genre TV), Carl (not given tedious kid stories he's outgrown, not thrown into a CW-type love triangle), Michonne (allowed to slowly show her heart and vulnerability without being degraded or humiliated to somehow make the average viewer feel that she is beneath them; still given bad-ass moments even after showing her softer side), etc. It's not perfect, and there's plenty of missteps and character stagnation, but the sometimes highly ponderous nature of the show tends to benefit many of the characters, because we get to see more sides to them. 

 

I don't really care whether the characters have gone in circles or not; it would still basically just be the same problems in a new location. The show is very nihilistic and I can't see that changing even if they somehow make their way to Illinois or Tibet. Locations are window dressing. Sitcoms in the '50s and '60s used to go to Europe and Hollywood and farmhouses when they started to feel played out, but the plots remained the same. 

 

The show has generally tried for urgency in season finales and MSF, and sometimes premieres, but other than breaking out of Terminus, I don't think they've ever fully succeeded. It often just feels forced. It doesn't have to be that way, but for some reason it often is. 

 

What would I like to see? A streamlined story arc that can believably run throughout the entire season. Themes are fine, but make them work for the story. Don't just have themes for the sake of themes and assume viewers are interested, or can follow whatever you're trying to tell them. Stop changing or defining characters based on a plot or a theme - it's just about destroyed Tyreese, and they were lucky it didn't do the same to Carol. Less prattling about Important Life Lessons that aren't all that important when repeated 500 different times. Less contradictory views of whether or not it's good to be cold and hard. Less aimless plotting. Less assuming viewers know things we don't. Less attempting to show us the humanity of villains unless these villains stay around and are genuinely ambiguous, compelling figures. Less telling, more showing. Less murky, confusing backgrounds and relationships for short-term characters. Less of Daryl making woobie faces and crying man tears behind his bangs of bereavement. 

Edited December 6, 2014 by Pete Martell

[AndySmith]

 

Emily isn't a child, she's 29 and has had other acting jobs

 

Hey, maybe she can join Alanna Masterson and Haylie Duff on Real Girl's Kitchen. They could make a TWD inspired menu lol

[Pestilentia]

 

I don't think anyone actually took the time beforehand to see whether or not she was too fragile to go on.

 

Why is a bit of crying such a catastrophe?

Folks act as if her suffering was so acute that she needed to be under the care of a physician.

It's something that happens- I never understood the cultural prohibition against just letting a few tears fall and moving on.

It's the trying to stop it that causes all the difficulties.

 

 

I think Morgan represents to me what the show could have been based on that initial relationship he developed with Rick.

 

And there we have it- ten pages of explanations distilled to the meat of it.

[Pete Martell]

Crying isn't a catastrophe. It's more that she was so upset she could barely speak, and I assume she was so upset that she wasn't able to come on until the second half of the show.

[kikismom]

I do feel as though this season everyone on the show went on vacation after the first three eps. Was it because, as with other shows, they got too busy planning a spin-off and let this show just drift? The last five scripts are terrible, but so is the lighting, the camera work, the music, everything. Now Kirkman says we won't see a very big part of the original story anytime soon, not this season or season 6. The viewers have run out of patience. The story line is slowing down like a wind-up toy. I never felt so indifferent about what's going to happen next.

 

 

I don't think that's a bad exit for Abraham and Eugene, but to be honest with you, if Rosita had been gunned down just because of another even more wanly written female character (Abraham's wife), and her role on the show had been reduced to Abraham's last corpse, then combined with Beth's death, I probably would have quit watching the show. It would seem more like shock value to me than even Beth's death did.

But people do die like that. Axel did, just as we were getting to know a little about him. Same with the fruit people. DId they die because of a wanly written other character, or have their roles reduced to the Gov.'s first corpse at the prison or one more corpse to the walkers and one first corpse to Gareth at the trough?

 

I thought it is all to show some deaths are sudden out of nowhere in this new world....just as some deaths are telegraphed for many episodes in a long run for a short slide.

 

I had a pretty cousin who had a nice job in an office, a nice boyfriend who asked her to marry him. One day a complete stranger walked in the office with a shotgun and murdered her and then killed himself in a minute with no sense to it. Only after the police identified him, and went to his home did they see he had been a mental patient secretly stalking her for year. his house was full of pictures he took of her from a distance, and a diary where he believed he was some magic person and she was the princess he was destined to have as a soul-mate and then one day he saw in the newspaper her engagement photo/announcement and he went out and just did this.

I know that isn't the exact same thing, but yes it happens that people die just because of someone else's previous issues that they had nothing to do with, their life of potential and accomplishments get reduced to someone else's last violent act.

Deaths in the real world aren't always at a correct time for a correct reason, they can be pointless, unfair, shocking, and cheat everybody. Always has been always will be...fiction should be as well.

The only deaths that make sense and don't seem unfair or don't serve some wrong purpose or don't come without a warning are deaths by old age natural causes. Won't see many of those in the ZA.

[kikismom]

 

Less prattling about Important Life Lessons that aren't all that important when repeated 500 different times.

Yes, I've heard this interminable hospital arc was to announce that hope and optimism can't survive.

I thought we just did that with Bob.

I thought we just had the last MSF with Herschel do the same thing.

[LilySilver]

It's not Kirkman's problem if Emily Kinney broke down in tears, nor is it his responsibility to do anything.  He had his own job to do and his own things to talk about.  If Emily couldn't pull herself together, Chris Hardwick was the one who needed to step in.  Emily isn't a child, she's 29 and has had other acting jobs.  By this time she should know how these things work and be prepared for it.

 

As for giggling about "everyone dies" - good.  I like writers who aren't afraid to kill off their characters, even their own favorites.  Some of the stories I've been the most disappointed in have turned out to have characters who were supposed to die but the author changed his or her mind because of fear of audience reaction.   

No, it's not his problem at all, but there is a basic human way to handle it, especially if it's someone you have worked with and who you wrote out of the show.  I was uncomfortable that she was so upset to begin with, but Kirkman's reaction seemed like a 13-year-old boy's, not a successful author/screenwriter/showrunner's.  It just irked me.  It was so much more awkward for Hardwick to cross over to her to give her a hug than it would have been for Kirkman to just put his arm around her. Clearly the relationship (and the social skills) wasn't there.  Anyone else sitting next to her, I thought, would have helped her pull it together rather than just sitting there with a weird look on his face.

 

As for Emily, yes, I wish she had not been so emotional but I got the feeling that some of her upset WAS from sitting next to him. Why was she still so upset this far down the line?  It does sound like she was abruptly informed of her character's immediately impending death.  Is that how they always do it?  Maybe she's just still mad about the way it was handled, I don't know. Sometimes I cry when I'm mad.  Mostly I scream obscenities, but sometimes, you know, a little teary.  Lauren Cohan was crying on TD when Herschel died, so it's not a first. 

 

I don't mind killing off characters either. I mean it hurts! But it's part of the show, as with GOT. And I have really liked some of the episodes Kirkman's responsible for. What I said was that I don't like him (as in he just bugs), and I don't trust him to do right by the characters/storyline long term. In his interviews he often seems to be saying that any character development is simply a manipulation to get to the payoff of feeling shocked or saddened by the character's death.  Of course it isn't; of course it can't be.  He has to get that as a writer.  Yet it's what he heavily implies time and again.  Okay, his characters, his show.  But I think it's a poor way to treat an audience and a poor way to keep a show interesting, unless you think your audience is just in it for the shock and gore (which surely some are--just that I ain't).  

 

Add to that the apparent insistence that the show follow the comics, which I think needs to handled with an eye toward what the show *is* rather than what it's based on, and I don't feel very hopeful that the quality of the show will remain high. Or watchable, which is really the low bar I'm using.  If the characters and their struggles aren't the driving force of the show, but rather just tools (looking at you, Major Moobs) and cogs in an endless stream of pointless plotlines--if characters are not written consistently and continue to  be used as a means to an end, then it's just not interesting to me.  

 

Not that there can never be inconsistencies. Writing is hard!  But the impression I get from Kirkman's interviews (and it may just be a miscommunication, but it's pretty consistent in the way he presents it) is that he sees himself as a puppet master, and he decides which strings to pull not based on choreography (characterization and crafted conflict driving the plot), but by which will give him the biggest immediate shock/pain payoff from the audience. 'Specially in a MSF, ya'll!   I don't like it.

Edited December 6, 2014 by LilySilver

[Pestilentia]

 

I was uncomfortable that she was so upset to begin with, but Kirkman's reaction seemed like a 13-year-old boy's, not a successful author/screenwriter/showrunner's.

 

Seems par for the course to me- he's like a poster boy for arrested development who makes a living writing comics about zombies.

He just fell into those additional job descriptions- I think expecting him to be mature and thoughtful toward a girl (!) speaks more to unrealistic expectations than anything.

He's a phenomenally lucky person- his timing was just right.

 

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me tears pop up for all manner of reasons, many of which make no sense within the context of the situation.

I think EK had to keep a lid on speaking about TWD for so long that she sort of postponed her reactions by keeping busy doing other things. She probably looked forward to this week and episode for a number of reasons, was hyper-stimulated, tired from press, put on the spot, just watched the ep, and so a few tears bubbled up when it came time to speak. She didn't look terribly distraught to me, just someone whose body needed to cry a bit to release some of those good old endorphins and reduce stress.

[LilySilver]

Seems par for the course to me- he's like a poster boy for arrested development who makes a living writing comics about zombies.

He just fell into those additional job descriptions- I think expecting him to be mature and thoughtful toward a girl (!) speaks more to unrealistic expectations than anything.

He's a phenomenally lucky person- his timing was just right.

 

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me tears pop up for all manner of reasons, many of which make no sense within the context of the situation.

I think EK had to keep a lid on speaking about TWD for so long that she sort of postponed her reactions by keeping busy doing other things. She probably looked forward to this week and episode for a number of reasons, was hyper-stimulated, tired from press, put on the spot, just watched the ep, and so a few tears bubbled up when it came time to speak. She didn't look terribly distraught to me, just someone whose body needed to cry a bit to release some of those good old endorphins and reduce stress.

This makes total sense.  Although I would add that to me Emily Kinney comes across as younger than she is, as well, so that may have been part of it, and certainly part of why I felt worse for her than I might have someone else.  She talks and acts like she is maybe 19, and not in a bad way, but she does seem emotionally young to me.  I still think it's weird the way they interacted and wonder if they left on awkward terms....Most people (strangers) would have patted her on the shoulder or something, at the very least.  Hardwick was beside himself, lol, and I would have loved to know what he was thinking.  

 

I guess what it comes down to is that Kirkman presents himself as enjoying the power he holds over the show, the characters, the audience. It's triggering for me, due to the whole "Lost" debacle where the writers were just too too clever for us all...ugh.  Really, I don't need big payoff from a show once I'm invested, but I do want it to make sense and give me something to think about.

[Pestilentia]

 

I guess what it comes down to is that Kirkman presents himself as enjoying the power he holds over the show, the characters, the audience.

 

Honestly, it would be crazy if he did not- I probably would. I would behave more professionally while in public and especially while being interviewed or making an appearance but still.

Gloating is simple human nature and not terribly diabolical, so with Kirkman I think it's a lack of maturity more than anything.

[AngelaHunter]

For me, Abraham/Rosita/Eugene (although I like Rosita and at times I'm OK with Abraham and Eugene) just stick out, and if Kirkman weren't involved with the show, I have my doubts that they and the whole paper-thin "cure" plot ever would have been on TV.

 

I agree. The moment they appeared, I had to check and make sure the channel hadn't been changed on me. I thought I was watching another show with live-action cartoon characters.

[Ouisch]

I don't read the comics, but I've read enough message boards to know what characters/locations to expect on the show's timeline. But if the writers were brave enough to depart from that construct, I'm totally in favor of taking Our Group on a different trajectory come February. Like, for example, Rick and the Gang finally taking a moment to regroup and recap what's happened to them since they left the prison. In summary - joining other existing groups (Woodbury, Terminus, Grady) = bad. We all get along with one another, we trust one another, instead of worrying about humanity rebuilding itself, why don't we just find a little patch of Earth to call our own and settle down? Go all Little House on the Prairie -  find a nice plot of land with a house or two on it, build fences if there aren't any, start caging rabbits and pigeons or whatever and raise them along with some crops and make a nice little safe haven. Even some gated suburban community could do - they could plant crops on those previously manicured lawns and then spend their days raising fruits and vegetables and animals and digging wells and grinding grain and doing whatever our ancestors did in those pioneer days. That would be just as much of a "mission" or purpose as driving to Washington DC.

[editorgrrl]

The spinoff is a prequel, so I assume it'll have more of that CDB kind of stuff—survivors banding together & trying to find a safe haven.

[ghoulina]

Why is a bit of crying such a catastrophe?

Folks act as if her suffering was so acute that she needed to be under the care of a physician.
It's something that happens- I never understood the cultural prohibition against just letting a few tears fall and moving on.
It's the trying to stop it that causes all the difficulties.

 

I agree. I didn't have a problem with her crying. That's just how some people express emotion. I'm a crier myself. I can't really help it. I get choked up reading my kids a Christmas story. But EK was fine. She wasn't sobbing uncontrollably or anything. I think it's sweet that remembering the bond she shared with those people caused her to get misty, and she only needed a few minutes to get herself under control. It's not as if she wasn't able to speak at all. 

 

I do agree that it's not Kirkman's place to console her or anything, but damn....the look on his face. To me it said "I could give two fucks about this crying bitch, can someone get back to talking about me?" Just my personal opinion.

[Pete Martell]

I do feel as though this season everyone on the show went on vacation after the first three eps. Was it because, as with other shows, they got too busy planning a spin-off and let this show just drift? The last five scripts are terrible, but so is the lighting, the camera work, the music, everything. Now Kirkman says we won't see a very big part of the original story anytime soon, not this season or season 6. The viewers have run out of patience. The story line is slowing down like a wind-up toy. I never felt so indifferent about what's going to happen next.

 

I'd disagree that everything has been terrible for the last 5 episodes. I actually think most of "Consumed" was fine, and I also liked "Slabtown" (although it's now marred by the poor resolution of the arc), and parts of "Self Help." I think the problem is less episode quality and more having an awkward balance between developing storylines and going for psychological insights and character arcs. Episodes like "Consumed" were mostly about this, and for me that worked, but the actual attempts at moving the plot forward (like the ambulance crash, like Noah meeting Carol and Daryl) were clumsy. The show has developed a very crude, amateurish way of having characters behave in ridiculous ways in order to keep the plot going.

 

I think they wanted this first half to be about tying up loose ends and moving forward. They just didn't really execute this very well.

[Pete Martell]

But people do die like that. Axel did, just as we were getting to know a little about him. Same with the fruit people. DId they die because of a wanly written other character, or have their roles reduced to the Gov.'s first corpse at the prison or one more corpse to the walkers and one first corpse to Gareth at the trough?

 

I thought it is all to show some deaths are sudden out of nowhere in this new world....just as some deaths are telegraphed for many episodes in a long run for a short slide.

 

I had a pretty cousin who had a nice job in an office, a nice boyfriend who asked her to marry him. One day a complete stranger walked in the office with a shotgun and murdered her and then killed himself in a minute with no sense to it. Only after the police identified him, and went to his home did they see he had been a mental patient secretly stalking her for year. his house was full of pictures he took of her from a distance, and a diary where he believed he was some magic person and she was the princess he was destined to have as a soul-mate and then one day he saw in the newspaper her engagement photo/announcement and he went out and just did this.

I know that isn't the exact same thing, but yes it happens that people die just because of someone else's previous issues that they had nothing to do with, their life of potential and accomplishments get reduced to someone else's last violent act.

Deaths in the real world aren't always at a correct time for a correct reason, they can be pointless, unfair, shocking, and cheat everybody. Always has been always will be...fiction should be as well.

The only deaths that make sense and don't seem unfair or don't serve some wrong purpose or don't come without a warning are deaths by old age natural causes. Won't see many of those in the ZA.

 

The fruit couple died (well, the wife died) to show us one of the reasons why Rick was frightened by Carol and no longer wanted her at the prison. I'm not really sure why the husband had to die - I guess it was to show us a familiar face at Terminus, or to tie up a loose end, so that fans wouldn't say, "Whatever happened to that hippie guy? What terrible continuity," and so on, while the actor was busy on Gotham.

 

Axel mostly died because of shock value, and presumably to show us the prison was no longer safe. It was a good gore moment, and the suddenness of the death was well-captured, but it was one of those moments that took me out of the show, because cynically I kept thinking, "Of course if someone's going to die it's some guy who just showed up a few episodes ago," and then you had the hilariousness of his corpse shielding bullets for Carol, and the Governor shooting his machine gun in the air - I always see that moment as when the Woodbury vs. prison arc, and The Governor in general, truly died as anything beyond camp.

 

I think some shock deaths can work - Amy's for instance. 

 

My problem with Rosita dying that way is that we already saw one woman who died because she was afraid of Abraham. Now we have another woman who has repeatedly been afraid of Abraham, and he blows her away, and we realize she was likely only ever on the show just so he could kill her. 

 

With Beth already killed off in part to further a man's story, and already too defined by men (one man, mostly) in her last year on the show, I'd be uncomfortable with two young women having that role. 

 

I don't disagree with what you say about how sometimes this happens, I just think in the context of the show, it would send out a bad message.

 

I'm sorry about your cousin.

Edited December 6, 2014 by Pete Martell

[AngelaHunter]

Axel mostly died because of shock value, and presumably to show us the prison was no longer safe. It was a good gore moment, and the suddenness of the death was well-captured,

 

It shocked me too. I was getting to be rather fond of Axel, especially after his reaction to finding out Carol wasn't a lesbian. I was sorry he didn't stay around longer.

[Pete Martell]

I think I had been spoiled, but it was one of those moments where I was sort of shocked, and yet not shocked, because Oscar had just been killed two episodes earlier, and the show was clearly bringing these characters in just to have a body count without killing any main characters.

I agree. I didn't have a problem with her crying. That's just how some people express emotion. I'm a crier myself. I can't really help it. I get choked up reading my kids a Christmas story. But EK was fine. She wasn't sobbing uncontrollably or anything. I think it's sweet that remembering the bond she shared with those people caused her to get misty, and she only needed a few minutes to get herself under control. It's not as if she wasn't able to speak at all. 

 

I do agree that it's not Kirkman's place to console her or anything, but damn....the look on his face. To me it said "I could give two fucks about this crying bitch, can someone get back to talking about me?" Just my personal opinion.

 

To me it seemed like at a few points she was so choked up she couldn't even carry on the conversation. Which was why I wasn't sure they should have made her come on the show. 

 

I guess the TV Line interview which consisted of her sobbing also made me wonder how up she was to the process.

 

http://tvline.com/2014/11/30/the-walking-dead-beth-dies-season-5-midseason-finale-emily-kinney-interview/

[bunnyblue]

Rick:  Well ....... can you share some of your food?  We've got some brown water we got out of a puddle that we strained.

Wards:  Why's that guy laying there unconscious?  Why is that priest dramatically limping around like that?

Rick:  Well the unconscious guy lied about a zombie cure so we gave him what for, and the priest ran from safety and lead a zombie horde back to my baby and son.

 

RedheadZombie, you're entire post was gold but this part brought tears to my eyes. When you put it that way, Team Grimes really doesn't have much to offer anyone. Unless you get kidnapped by crazies then they will definitely come after you. They can't guarantee you'll walk out alive though. 

[Pete Martell]

I do think it might have been interesting if Dr. Edwards had gone with them and struggled about whether or not to keep killing people in the group to "prove" his worth. That's something I wanted to see explored a little more. 

[editorgrrl]

I do think it might have been interesting if Dr. Edwards had gone with them and struggled about whether or not to keep killing people in the group to "prove" his worth. That's something I wanted to see explored a little more.

We won't know until February if any of the Grady bunch stepped forward.

[GreyBunny]

I still think it's weird the way they interacted and wonder if they left on awkward terms....Most people (strangers) would have patted her on the shoulder or something, at the very least. 

 

Maybe Kirkman isn't a touchy-feely person, a lot of people aren't.  Perhaps he doesn't like to touch others and doesn't like others to put their hands on him.  It is possible that Kirkman and Emily didn't get along for whatever reason, maybe her immaturity constantly showed itself on set and when she was around him and it got on his nerves.  Then after she couldn't come out for several segments because she couldn't control herself, when she finally does she's sitting there sobbing on the couch, he was just done with her.  Whatever the reason I don't blame him and he shouldn't be obligated to put an arm around her shoulder or touch her some other way if he wasn't comfortable doing so.  

 

Deaths in the real world aren't always at a correct time for a correct reason, they can be pointless, unfair, shocking, and cheat everybody. Always has been always will be...fiction should be as well.

The only deaths that make sense and don't seem unfair or don't serve some wrong purpose or don't come without a warning are deaths by old age natural causes. Won't see many of those in the ZA.

 

This exactly, and in a world with no social safety nets the risk of accidental deaths and being killed by the criminally-minded are that much higher.  Beth's death was in line with her character, she had a history of bad planning and doing impulsive things without thinking through the consequences and this time it got her killed.

[CletusMusashi]

We won't know until February if any of the Grady bunch stepped forward.

At the very least, I expect to know on February 2nd whether or not Lord Fluffington  is out.

Edited December 7, 2014 by CletusMusashi

[kikismom]

At the very least, I expect to know on February 2nd whether or not Lord Fluffington  is out.

Isn't February 2nd Groundhog Day? (Or is every day Groundhog Day for this show?)

[AngelaHunter]

(Or is every day Groundhog Day for this show?)

 

LOL! Pretty much. Only the Faces of Evil seem to change.

[Raven1707]

Kirkman just seems so callous to the human element of the story, and so jazzed and impressed with himself over the gore and hopelessness. There's nothing wrong with a zombie story that's just about horror and gore, but it's not something I would ever watch. No one who knows me can believe I watch TWD as it is--for me it's all about the humanity, survival, and relationships.  Kirkman doesn't seem to get that at all.

Not that there can never be inconsistencies. Writing is hard! But the impression I get from Kirkman's interviews (and it may just be a miscommunication, but it's pretty consistent in the way he presents it) is that he sees himself as a puppet master, and he decides which strings to pull not based on choreography (characterization and crafted conflict driving the plot), but by which will give him the biggest immediate shock/pain payoff from the audience. 'Specially in a MSF, ya'll!   I don't like it.

 

 

I guess what it comes down to is that Kirkman presents himself as enjoying the power he holds over the show, the characters, the audience. It's triggering for me, due to the whole "Lost" debacle where the writers were just too too clever for us all...ugh.  Really, I don't need big payoff from a show once I'm invested, but I do want it to make sense and give me something to think about.

 

Kirkman's allegiance has always seemed (to me) to be first and foremost to the comics he wrote without the input or assistance of other, more talented writers. Which is why I'm cautiously looking forward to the companion series. Yeah, Kirkman will still be involved as an executive producer, but the showrunner and writers will no longer be a slave to the comics.

 

That said, I'll watch The Walking Dead to the very end. There's always been enough there for me.

[Raven1707]

Does anyone have suggestions on where I should post my "Maggie's Dialogue" transcriptions? It seems a bit unwieldy to post each set in its specific episode thread, and I haven't come across a dedicated Maggie thread.

 

I've never started a thread here, but if that's the best option, I could do that.

 

Mods?

[AngelaHunter]

No one who knows me can believe I watch TWD as it is--for me it's all about the humanity, survival, and relationships.  Kirkman doesn't seem to get that at all.

 

I agree. For me it's not about zombies, but about people and what they will do to survive. I don't know much about Kirkman, but maybe human interaction isn't his thing. He really doesn't seem to know a whole lot about women, anyway.

[ChipBach]

It would have been way more believeable if Dawn demanded Noah, Noah agreed, then Beth turned to Rick and said, "Rick, these people have electricity, clean hot water, plenty of food and fuel, medicine and a phsycian. This woman here has been allowing rape and forced, unanethesitised amputations. We should take it." Rick would have grunted, told Dawn to put her gun down once, when she didnt, he would have shot her in the head and told the other cops, "I dont care if yall keep wearing those dumb uniforms, Im in charge now and my family is moving in."

 

But no, Robert Kirkman wants the show to be just utter dispair porn.

Kirkman definitely gives off the "35 year old xboxer in mom's basement, never had a girlfriend kind of guy"...  He was sooo comfortable sitting next to blonde while she was crying during the Talking Dead...

[mightysparrow]

I have no idea what was going on with Kirkman during 'Talking Dead. I agree with whoever said, 'let's get back to talking about me'. I definitely thought there was some of that involved. But I also got the impression that Kirkman doesn't think he owes EK anything, and I have to say I agree with him.  Thanks to 'his' show, TWD', EK is famous worldwide and, let's face it, she would have never gotten there with just her 'talent'.  It was a mutually beneficial arrangement that's come to an end.  EK will never go hungry as long as there are comic conventions.  And Beth wasn't even a Kirkman character, so they really don't have much connecting them. In fact, I was wondering what Kirkman was doing on Talking Dead when the episode was focused on a character that's not in the comic.  Where was Gimple or Gale Anne Hurd? They never seem to miss an opportunity to be on camera. Maybe Kirkman drew the short straw. 

 

I can't help wondering if  EK isn't milking this for what it's worth.  The interview that she sobbed through, seemed a bit much. She knows her fan base and what will set them off. I read somewhere online that she would be happy to return if the show runners changed their minds.  Is she crazy? Her character's funeral has already been filmed. Should the cast drop whatever it is they're doing and rush to re-shoot the second half of the season because she's upset and some lunatics signed a petition and mailed AMC some spoons?

[NoWillToResist]

EK will never go hungry as long as there are comic conventions.  And Beth wasn't even a Kirkman character, so they really don't have much connecting them. In fact, I was wondering what Kirkman was doing on Talking Dead when the episode was focused on a character that's not in the comic. 

 

Hell, maybe that explains the apparently weird vibe (I didn't watch TTD). I don't know why the comic book creator would be called upon to discuss the shocking death of a character he never even created. What the fuck input would he have? He wouldn't give a shit about her or her death, IMO. What a strange choice.

[HalcyonDays]

Does anyone have suggestions on where I should post my "Maggie's Dialogue" transcriptions? It seems a bit unwieldy to post each set in its specific episode thread, and I haven't come across a dedicated Maggie thread.

 

I've never started a thread here, but if that's the best option, I could do that.

 

Mods?

 

Raven1707, I've created a Maggie thread for you to put your quotes in. Surprisingly, we didn't have one yet. You can put your dialogue there and suggest maybe a better thread title.

[Pete Martell]

Hell, maybe that explains the apparently weird vibe (I didn't watch TTD). I don't know why the comic book creator would be called upon to discuss the shocking death of a character he never even created. What the fuck input would he have? He wouldn't give a shit about her or her death, IMO. What a strange choice.

 

Kirkman may not have created her, but he's also written for TWD, including Beth scenes. I think he was probably there more to tease the upcoming season than anything else. I also think the show planned a lighthearted tone to try to take minds off Beth's death (just basing this on the other guest and the video questions they picked), and it didn't mesh well with Emily's meltdown. 

 

I'm not entirely sure she would have been any better with Gimple or Hurd.

[SimoneS]

I am going through TWD withdrawal so I decided to visit the forum. I know we get this break every year, but damn, it is hard not being able to watch TWD on Sundays.

 

Kirkman's allegiance has always seemed (to me) to be first and foremost to the comics he wrote without the input or assistance of other, more talented writers. Which is why I'm cautiously looking forward to the companion series. Yeah, Kirkman will still be involved as an executive producer, but the showrunner and writers will no longer be a slave to the comics.

 

Unfortunately, I think that the companion series will suffer from not having the comics to guide it. I have always been of the opinion that both TWD and Game of Thrones have flourished because they had the original written material that pushed the showrunners into directions that they never would have gone in. There is no way that the typical showrunner would have killed off Shane, Lori, or half of the original cast, same with the Game of Thrones with Ned, Rob, and Kate. The showrunners would find excuses to keep the characters alive eliminating the drama that makes these shows compelling and keeps the audience engaged. 

Edited December 8, 2014 by SimoneS

[Pete Martell]

I've heard all kinds of praise for the games (which I haven't played yet), which have minimal ties to the source material. If they can branch out into that world with success hopefully they can do the same for the show.

[Kadlin Mormont]

I just hope the new series will have a team of writers who aren't afraid to pull the trigger on key characters.  I want the threat of a grisly death to always be there and not just be background noise.  

 

Topic?  Beth is still dead.

[bosawks]

 

Topic?  Beth is still dead.

 

If this becomes a new version of "Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead" that will be all kinds of awesome.

[diebartdie]

I just hope the new series will have a team of writers who aren't afraid to pull the trigger on key characters.

As shitty as the show was (is? will it really be back 2015?) Z Nation was not afraid to kill key characters.

[kikismom]

As shitty as the show was (is? will it really be back 2015?) Z Nation was not afraid to kill key characters.

Which brings up an interesting possibility:

ZNation had no real hope of a long life; so they went for it. They did the things they always wanted to do thinking it might be their only brief chance.

 

I think TWD began that way---even with bigger names behind it. No one knew if it would catch on like the comic. Instead it became more popular than the comic and literally became a worldwide phenomenon.

That's when they got tight-assed and started stingily doling out the action, the character growth, the everything. They got constipated by their own success and forgot how they were so successful in the first place: I once posted early on that I loved how they didn't wait for viewers to be caught up. It was the viewer's job to to handle everything thrown at them and that made it exhilarating.

I spoke too soon I guess---shortly after that it became inhibited by concerns outside the story; who's most popular, did we show enough flirting or crying scenes, are we demographically correct this week with age/race/gender/spiritual sectors of the audience, and the worst of all---never mind the flow of the story, let's hurry up or delay certain plot points to fit in with sweeps week or MSFs or competition with another network's big gun football/award show/movie franchise broadcast.

[Raven1707]

Yeah, there's a distinct possibility it was a high school, but I'm pretty sure those walkers weren't teenagers either, unless they had a truly tragic sense of style.

 

Responding to myself here, but while verifying the accuracy of my dialogue transcript from Four Walls and A Roof, I came upon this, which should settle this particular question:

 

Rick: “You know the place Bob was talking about?”

Gabriel: “It’s an elementary school. It’s close–”

Rick: “How close?”

Gabriel hesitates.

Rick: “How close, Gabriel?”

Gabriel: “It’s just a ten minute walk through the woods from here, due south of the graveyard.”

 

That said, I agree with other posters' reasoning as to why we might not have seen young children in this (or any other) herd.

Edited December 8, 2014 by Raven1707

[Milaxx]

Should the cast drop whatever it is they're doing and rush to re-shoot the second half of the season because she's upset and some lunatics signed a petition and mailed AMC some spoons?

 

The show has from the very beginning been willing to kill off it's characters. It's based on a comic book series which kills off characters on the regular. Yes some of the more prominent characters appear to have a measure of security, but honestly other than Rick & Darryl I wouldn't count on it. Beth was not a prominent character, no matter how much of a cult following she may have had. This petition will carry as much weight as the change.org petition to have the president deport Justin Beiber did. 

[Pete Martell]

Which brings up an interesting possibility:

ZNation had no real hope of a long life; so they went for it. They did the things they always wanted to do thinking it might be their only brief chance.

 

I think TWD began that way---even with bigger names behind it. No one knew if it would catch on like the comic. Instead it became more popular than the comic and literally became a worldwide phenomenon.

 

That's when they got tight-assed and started stingily doling out the action, the character growth, the everything. They got constipated by their own success and forgot how they were so successful in the first place: I once posted early on that I loved how they didn't wait for viewers to be caught up. It was the viewer's job to to handle everything thrown at them and that made it exhilarating.

 

I spoke too soon I guess---shortly after that it became inhibited by concerns outside the story; who's most popular, did we show enough flirting or crying scenes, are we demographically correct this week with age/race/gender/spiritual sectors of the audience, and the worst of all---never mind the flow of the story, let's hurry up or delay certain plot points to fit in with sweeps week or MSFs or competition with another network's big gun football/award show/movie franchise broadcast.

 

To me the opposite has happened. I think TWD began as a very inhibited show. I like the early material well enough, but the first season and a half reads as a very narrowly-focused program. It was billed as being about the ZA but soon became about the travails of a conventional TV family and a relatively conventional love triangle. The POC were mostly put in servile roles, with any spotlight they did get being oddly patronizing (hey, that Asian guy is so clever!). The women are kept very firmly in their place. The rooftop scenes where Officer Rick saves the helpless POC and women from the psycho junkie racist and tells us that race doesn't matter anymore will forever make me cringe - even Norman Lear would have cringed. Even in well-acted, potentially dramatic material like Carl being shot, I kept waiting for Lori and Rick to stop in the middle of a scene and talk to us about their favorite breakfast cereal or deodorant. 

 

I think the show only stopped being "inhibited" when they chose to kill Sophia instead of having her alive and safe. To me that's when they embraced the fatalism of this world and showed they would break away from the comics in serious ways.

 

I feel like the show only cut down on action because of budget cuts. They've had more and more as the budget has, presumably, increased. I also feel like character development has increased tenfold over the last few seasons; it's still a mixed bag, but a far cry from season 2 where some of the strongest and most compelling characterizations (Carol, Daryl) almost seemed to be done by accident.

 

I think the show has taken major risks in the last 2-3 seasons. Having so many episodes without the bulk of the group is a risk (if the show cared that much about who is popular, that wouldn't have happened). Listening to the criticisms about racism and misogyny and trying (if not always succeeding) to address them, instead of writing them off as "political correctness" was a risk. Having Michonne and Carol as two of the main female faces on the show, instead of revolving around a silicone sweetheart with a full face of makeup, tripping through the grass in tight jeans and a halter top, was a risk. I could even say killing Beth was a risk (even if killing young women on TV isn't exactly unusual), given that she was a popular young heroine.

 

For me the problem isn't too much success or fear of taking risks. It's too much recycling of too limited of themes, too much overdosing on miserable material just to make a statement that viewers already understand well enough without being reminded of it 50 more times, too many ponderous conversations, too much time spent on confusing storylines that feel pointless in the end. I think the entire Grady storyline, and to a lesser degree the DC/"cure" material, ran into this problem, and I imagine to many fans the entire first half of the season felt pointless. That's not a good thing.

[AngelaHunter]

are we demographically correct this week with age/race/gender/spiritual sectors of the audience, and the worst of all---never mind the flow of the story, let's hurry up or delay certain plot points to fit in with sweeps week or MSFs or competition with another network's big gun football/award show/movie franchise broadcast

 

Can't have a politically incorrect zombie apocalypse! How I wish this show were on HBO. In addition to the loosening of all the other constraints, we'd gain ten minutes each week.

[GreyBunny]

Which brings up an interesting possibility:

ZNation had no real hope of a long life; so they went for it. They did the things they always wanted to do thinking it might be their only brief chance.

 

I know, and it worked, in spades.  They had ridiculous storylines, goofy characters, impossible situations, they satirized the genre and had meta-jokes within the show - they even spoofed "Sharknado", they let their freak flags fly...and they sold it.  They've been renewed for a second season.  Get appealing actors who play characters with a lot of heart and you can get away with just about anything. 

Edited December 10, 2014 by GreyBunny

[NurseGiGi]

The only reason I wouldn't want it on HBO is because they would feel the need for gratuitous sex and nudity, just because they could.  While that might appeal to some I really don't need to see Michonne fighting zombies while topless as Rick and Daryl stand there leering at her with their shirts off, postering and flexing.  Come to think of it I wouldn't mind seeing Rick without his shirt on as long as he washes that nasty hair.

I know, and it worked, in spades.  They had ridiculous storylines, goofy characters, impossible situations, they satirized the genre and had meta-jokes within the show - they even spoofed "Sharknado", they let their freak flags fly...and they sold it.  They've been renewed for a second season.  Get appealing actors who play characters with a lot of heart and you can get way with just about anything. 

I can't believe how much I enjoyed Z Nation.  Maybe because I didn't really expect much going in.

[Pete Martell]

Can't have a politically incorrect zombie apocalypse! How I wish this show were on HBO. In addition to the loosening of all the other constraints, we'd gain ten minutes each week.

 

Based on what fills up the extra ten minutes of Game of Thrones, we'd mostly be seeing breasts, rape, and people talking about killing beetles. 

[AngelaHunter]

Based on what fills up the extra ten minutes of Game of Thrones, we'd mostly be seeing breasts, rape, and people talking about killing beetles.

 

Ha! I've never watched that show, but have heard about it. We certainly wouldn't be seeing any of THAT stuff on TWD no matter how much extra time we'd have,  well, maybe the beetle killing part only...or more throats slashed, jugulars ripped out, geysers of blood spouting,  zombie gutting, or eyes gouged with glass, but NO breasts. God forbid!