Actionmage January 3, 2015 Share January 3, 2015 In going through things to toss out, I came across this TV Guide "Watch My Show!" from S1's winter break! I will transcribe because I can't seem to find a link to just this half-page Q & A for A& E. If it looks too long, I'll make it two posts. "TVG: I could sit at home and read a fairy tale. Why should I watch your show instead? A&E: Because what we're attempting to do is not retell fairy tales but tell you the parts of them you never knew--to reinvent them through our own sensibilities and then mash them all up in ways we've never seen before and we hope the audience hasn't imagined. TVG: What happens if we don't watch your show? A&E:Then the show ends. And we are sad. TVG: Give us an algorithm for your show. A&E: We don't understand math. That's why we became writers. TVG: What's the best thing anyone has said or written about your show? A&E: That it made them happy to watch; that it transported them somewhere enjoyable for an hour. TVG: Were they right? A&E: We take them at their word. Who are we to judge? TVG: ABC promotes your Lost credits. Which past credit should they avoid touting at all costs? A&E: Hot Tonight. It was a public access sketch-comedy show we did in Madison, Wisconsin. We thought we were funny. We write drama now. TVG: How are you using your power of TV for good? A&E: We are trying to write about the power of hope in a time of uncertainty. Also, we use it to fight crime. TVG: What's an alternate title for your show? A&E: A Fistful of Fairy Dust. end of Part1... 2 Link to comment
Actionmage January 3, 2015 Share January 3, 2015 (edited) Part 2 of the Adam & Eddy TV Guide Q&A... "TVG: Show runner battles are all the rage these days. Pick a rival show, any show, to start a fight with. A&E: 60 Minutes. We've watched your show. We've timed it. Without commercials, you're only 43 minutes. TVG: Let's scare the network. Tell us an idea that didn't make it out of the writers' room. A&E: We have a show with fairies, dwarves, talking crickets, and dragons-- we're not sure they're frightened of anything anymore. TVG: Let's say you could do a crossover episode with any TV show in history. Which show, and what would the episode be about? A&E: The Charmings. And it would be Snow and Charming confronting Snow and Charming. Fighting to the death over who is really...Snow and Charming. TVG: Of your cast members, who would fare best on Celebrity Apprentice? A&E: Rumpelstiltskin. He drives a hard bargain. TVG: Now that you're a hit, what sort of Hollywood-ish thing will you demand? A&E: We don't think of ourselves as a hit; we're just glad to have the opportunity to tell more stories. That said, we've asked ABC for a dwarf entourage. TVG: What would a Once Upon a Time ride at Disneyland look like? A&E: You'd hop in Emma's Yellow Bug, race through Storybrooke and escape the curse right before being deposited in Fairy Tale Land. That's where, of course, your picture would be taken in the Magic Mirror. And you'd have to walk through Mr. Gold's Pawn Shop in order to buy souvenirs. Or barter your children for the location of your parking spot, which you've long since forgotten because of the dizzying ride." PS: This mentioned Once coming back "January 8"; that's why the S1 spec on my part, so this was published Dec. 2011?) Edited January 3, 2015 by Actionmage 1 Link to comment
buildmeupbuttercup January 3, 2015 Share January 3, 2015 I just wish they'd be willing to make consequences stick. Consequences are only for the heroes who "always get their happy ending" (Emma's relationship with her parents will always be strained by them giving her up vs. Henry being Regina's biggest cheerleader even after everything she's done to him) or half season villains, certainly not a villain that starts with R. That's why as well deserved as Belle's speech and pushing Rumple over the town line was it went over like a lead balloon with me because ::non-spoiler alert:: he will walk right back into town in 4B! Probably even by the end of 412. Just like Regina's "ultimate sacrifice" in season 3 with Henry, which oh btw the "heroes" suffered just as much as Regina by losing Emma and Henry too. If these writers want us to believe in any of these consequences maybe they shouldn't be so plotplotplot obsessed and actually let these consequences marinate for you know more than an episode. It's my conspiracy theory that the reason there is so much plot is that they want us to quickly forget certain elements so we don't think about them too hard. For all the "we certainly don’t want to repeat ourselves" the show is very formulaic and throws all these plots out there to make you forget they don't seem to know how to address their character relationships with each other. They had a two hour episode directly after Emma's anger at her parents (and all those underlying family issues) caused her to blow a hole in the brick wall of the sheriff's station and never did anything with it. They get very ambitious with these half mini seasons and crowd it with a full seasons worth of plot but the result is a clusterfuck where storylines are dropped, underdeveloped, or resolved without any meaningful payoff. They juggled about 20 plotlines this season and although I thought Snow Queen was the best handled ending when you actually look at how quickly it was wrapped up (the letter solves it all!) and no payoff to her relationship with Elsa and Emma it's all just so unsatisfying. The Apprentice ended (usually an indication of a big ::dun dun dun:: moment that will payoff the next episode or later) with Henry working as Gold's "apprentice" so to speak and the big result was...absofuckinglutely nothing. Before the last couple episodes of 4A, I was actually ranking this half season as my favorite since season 1 but in hindsight all poor execution gets me madder than I've ever been with this show. 8 Link to comment
Souris January 4, 2015 Author Share January 4, 2015 Before the last couple episodes of 4A, I was actually ranking this half season as my favorite since season 1 but in hindsight all poor execution gets me madder than I've ever been with this show. ITA. I was LOVING 4A through the first 4 eps. Those eps set things up so nicely and promisingly. Then 4x05 pissed me off beyond measure, and from then on, things started unraveling. All the promise and setups were utterly squandered. The lack of payoff to the Hook's heart arc was the most egregious and table-flippy, but it wasn't the only one. Is there such a thing as authorial misconduct? Because they were guilty of it. How do you take such promising setups and fumble every single one that badly? 7 Link to comment
Actionmage January 10, 2015 Share January 10, 2015 The show has had 16 writers and 28 directors, as per IMDb. A&E have written 77 of the episodes ( in some form, story idea and/or screenplay) and Adam directed 'Unforgiven', episode 413. Sixteen of the directors only directed one episode. Ralph Hemecker and Dean White are the only directors in double digits (16 and 10, respectively.) Other writers in double digits, according to IMDB are Andrew Chambliss (18), Jane Espenson (16), David H. Goodman (15) and Kalinda Vazquez (10). Has the seeming inanity from around mid 2A on been because there have been so few voices in the writers' room but so many getting it on tape/film? Or is it because A&E seem to have very few checks and balances, as shown by how folks generally enjoyed the Frozen portions of 4A, even when they weren't expecting to enjoy it at all? Or are these questions too simplified? Link to comment
ParadoxLost January 11, 2015 Share January 11, 2015 Or is it because A&E seem to have very few checks and balances, as shown by how folks generally enjoyed the Frozen portions of 4A, even when they weren't expecting to enjoy it at all? Or are these questions too simplified? I would guess that it goes beyond no checks and balances. I suspect its hard to tell your boss that their work could be improved upon. 2 Link to comment
Camera One January 11, 2015 Share January 11, 2015 (edited) Though you would think *someone* could bring stuff up in the pre-session brainstorm room in a non-threatening way. Like in 4A, "wouldn't it be neat to explore Snow and Emma's relationship and give them some moving conversation where they work out their issues?" Or in 3B, "how about an episode about Charming and Snow missing Emma and Henry?" So either all the major writers like Chambliss, Espenson, Goodman and Vazquez all operate on the same tone-deaf wavelength as A&E, or A&E has already decided the generalities. I'm afraid it's pretty much the former, since even the little things in each of the writers' individual episodes subscribe to the general pattern. It's all very much twists over plot, plot over character and plot over worldbuilding. Edited January 11, 2015 by Camera One 1 Link to comment
Shanna Marie January 12, 2015 Share January 12, 2015 Picking up the list of series flaws that was mentioned in the All Seasons thread: Lack of good worldbuilding. Setting up rules and mythology is a major concern for fantasy writing. It sets the board. This show leaves many of us guessing how and why things work the way they work. I'm all for leaving some elements up to the imagination, but a lot of glaring plot holes have been created... I think this is the core flaw of the series that a lot of other flaws spring from because it means there's no grounding. That leads to character inconsistencies, plot holes and a whole lot of missed opportunities. Take the magical system. There isn't one. We don't know the source for magical power. We don't know for sure how some people have it innately, some can use it but don't have it innately, some can do spells or use magical objects and some can't seem to use magic at all. We also don't know the attitude toward magic, and I think this hampered the Frozen plot, which was supposed to be about how the magical people needed to band together because no one else understood them. But we haven't seen anyone really have a problem with magic before, which is weird when you consider that the only "good" magic users we've seen in the Enchanted Forest were the fairies. There was Jefferson with his hat, and I guess there was the Apprentice (though he didn't seem to get out much, and we still don't know his good/evil status other than that he was opposed to the Dark One). Otherwise, we had Cora, Rumple, Regina, Hansel and Gretel's witch, and Maleficent. They had to do the Dark Curse to get to Emma to reach a white magic user because apparently there wasn't one in that whole world. You couldn't really blame the rank and file of the population if they were afraid of magic or saw magic as evil. Based on everything we've seen, Emma is unprecedented in having white magic that works in the World Without Magic. Every other human who has had or developed magical powers has turned evil or was evil to begin with. And yet no one but Neal, who had personal issues with magic, so much as raised an eyebrow about her having power until she boiled a baby bottle and the plot needed them to be afraid? But the worldbuilding isn't just for the magic/fantasy stuff. It's essential to building a society that works and makes sense, and that then helps create the characters and make them into people who seem more real, so we can care about them and relate to them even if their world is different from ours. And yet they seem to have put zero thought into it. Take accents. An accent is generally a sign of a cultural or class difference. People talk in different ways because they're from different places or associate with different people. On this show, the base accent is sort of generic North American. But there are people with different accents, and they haven't said anything about why their accents are different -- are they from a different country in their world? It's not even "accent blind" casting, since they have foreign actors who use their native accents, foreign actors doing North American accents and foreign actors doing other foreign accents. And then there's at least one North American actor doing a foreign accent. This brings up some weird things that could have given the story more depth if they'd bothered with even minimal worldbuilding. For instance, there's Scottish-sounding Rumple and British-sounding Milah whose son has an American accent. That would generally imply that both Rumple and Milah were foreigners and their son picked up the local accent. And that means that Rumple was stubbornly refusing to leave a village where he was actually an outsider, while it might explain Milah's sense of isolation if she came to this place from some foreign place with her husband and then she didn't connect with anyone, and it might explain some of her bond with somewhat British-sounding Killian if he's someone from the general vicinity of her homeland and she's already feeling like an isolated foreigner. Hook himself is one big worldbuilding fail. He's essentially a time traveler who was away for some 200 years and then returns and doesn't seem to be at all out of step with anything. Their world is so underdeveloped that they can't show how the world has changed in 200 years. And then he comes to our world without the memory download and hardly misses a step. He's the one making remarks about "Snow White and Prince Charming" when he wouldn't know about them being stories in our world and he wouldn't even know about their significance in the Enchanted Forest because he's not from their time period. And based on his accent, he's a foreigner to their land anyway. I can see Hook being a "never let 'em see you sweat" kind of guy who's not going to act out of place even if he's utterly lost, but it would be nice if we ever got to see him being privately or secretly baffled or if we saw the work he put into figuring things out. 3 Link to comment
daxx January 12, 2015 Share January 12, 2015 They did briefly show his thinking process. When he picked up Belle's gun he looked it over, decided how it should be held and then pointed it at Belle. It was obvious he had never seen a gun like that but he knew what a gun was and adapted quickly. His background would indicate he is intelligent. Being from a land of magic things don't throw him much. 1 Link to comment
OnceUponAJen January 13, 2015 Share January 13, 2015 I did like Hook being confused by Henry's reference to GPS when he was showing him the sextant. Link to comment
The Cake is a Pie January 13, 2015 Share January 13, 2015 As long as it has an Emma button, he'll be fine. 2 Link to comment
ParadoxLost January 13, 2015 Share January 13, 2015 But the worldbuilding isn't just for the magic/fantasy stuff. It's essential to building a society that works and makes sense, and that then helps create the characters and make them into people who seem more real, so we can care about them and relate to them even if their world is different from ours. he put into figuring things out. Its another side of the same thing, but the lack of a solid character bible is the biggest problem. There have been glimpses that the fairy tale character and the cursed Storybrooke character don't have the same personality. The fact that I hate Mary Margaret and love Snow White being one clue. Belle/Lacey being the other. They needed a character bible for EF and Storybrooke that should have then be used to inform how everyone reacted once the curse broke. But more specifically, it should be clear who we are dealing with, the EF character, the Storybrooke character, or a merged personality. 1 Link to comment
Shanna Marie January 13, 2015 Share January 13, 2015 They did briefly show his thinking process. When he picked up Belle's gun he looked it over, decided how it should be held and then pointed it at Belle. It was obvious he had never seen a gun like that but he knew what a gun was and adapted quickly. His background would indicate he is intelligent. Being from a land of magic things don't throw him much. That does make sense for his character, but they're inconsistent about it. The "Emma button" and "talking phone" lines were great, except they already had him snarking to Zelena about how unnecessary it was for her to make Rumple throw him in the trunk of the car for a chat because she was in Storybrooke and could have used the telephone. They don't seem to have established how much about our world Hook has figured out. The line where he remarked about Emma not believing in flying monkeys/the Wicked Witch of the West when she was the daughter of Snow White and Prince Charming was particularly bad and came across as though the writer had a clever line that needed to be used in that instance and needed to find a character to say it. But Hook was the worst possible choice because "Prince Charming" is more of a cultural concept that doesn't appear in the actual stories, so even if Greg and Tamara had thrown a copy of Grimm's Fairy Tales in with him while they had him tied up or even if they'd shown him the Disney cartoon, Hook shouldn't have known that "Prince Charming" was a thing. "Charming" is Snow's nickname for her husband, so I'm not sure Hook would have even known about that. So, yeah, they do need a character bible about who knows how much about what. And that brings me to another point from the list of what's wrong with the writing: - Continuity issues. Whether its breaking the rules of magic or giving characters lobotomies, Once just doesn't know what it wants to do. What happens is what the writers feel like writing that day. No rules apply.- Character reactions to Regina. Doesn't sound like a problem that drags the whole show down on paper, but you ask any forum member here and they'll tell you why it really is. Regina is where good characterization goes to die. She herself is not the issue, but rather everything that revolves around her. She's the black hole. Well, two points, but they tie together. It's not just Regina, although she does create a black hole because the reactions to her are the worst, but the characters are seldom allowed to react to anything like real people are, while Regina gets to overreact. People who've been tormented for years get over it within days (some of this also goes back to worldbuilding because they don't deal with the transition between Storybrooke and their world or the clash between personas). No one's allowed to be angry about wrongs done to them (except Regina). People go through all kinds of physical or emotional trauma and bounce right back in an instant. There are no lingering consequences to just about anything. Nothing really changes. People are ripped back and forth between worlds and it's like "oh, here we go again." Except without even that much reaction. Emotional reactions are only allowed for plot purposes. I guess maybe they think we'd be confused or forget if someone (other than Regina) was still traumatized or upset in the next episode by something that happened in the previous episode (which probably happened that morning, in show time) if it wasn't important to the plot. And yet, in a lot of cases the plot would change if the characters were allowed to react like real people. They would be making different choices, and that would change events. So no one is allowed to have a reaction that doesn't affect the predetermined plot that was created without any thought into what these characters would really do under these circumstances or what the characters previously believed, said, or did. 5 Link to comment
Shanna Marie January 14, 2015 Share January 14, 2015 I've been thinking more about that lack of character reaction/Regina black hole issue, and the mid-season finale is a perfect case study. We know in excruciating detail how Regina feels about her boyfriend of maybe a week or so going off with his wife after saying he'd rather be with Regina. We know what most of the other characters think about this. Oddly enough, we also learn how Regina feels about Rumple being kicked out of town. But we don't know how Regina and Emma know Rumple was kicked out of town. Only Belle was there. Did Belle come back into town and tell everyone what happened? Or did Emma just hear Belle order Rumple to poof them to the town line and put two and two together? We also don't know if anyone knows exactly what Rumple was up to. I don't recall how much Belle knew from Anna about the hat, but I don't think she had the full story, and she definitely didn't know what was up with Hook's heart. Hook was the only one who had the full story. Should we assume that he's had a chance to brief both Belle and Emma bout what Rumple was doing? We know what Henry feels about Robin and this author plot, but does he even know that his grandfather got kicked out of town and that he was working on an evil scheme the whole time Henry was working for him? Henry was there when Belle discovered the gauntlet. Did he ever learn what that signified? We also don't know how Belle is reacting to what happened. Is she listening to angry breakup songs while making a bonfire of Rumple's possessions, or is she weeping and holding his pillow, wondering if she made the right decision? We don't know what she decided to do with the dagger. Meanwhile, we got no reaction from Emma about seeing her boyfriend on the brink of death, after that was established as a fear that nearly held her back from starting a relationship with him. We don't know how he's dealing with having come that close to death. We don't know if he's come clean about everything that went on, from the blackmail to hatting the fairies. We've had no reaction from Emma or her parents from learning what would have happened to Emma if Elsa hadn't intervened to stop her from giving up her powers. And because of the time jump, if any of these things are revealed, it will have to have happened offscreen or else it will look like withholding. If we see Hook tell Emma about the fairies, it will mean he didn't tell her for six weeks. All of this seems a lot more critical to the plot than making sure we know how Regina feels about losing Robin and making sure the others rally around her. Come to think of it, since Emma was busy during all that time with finding the portal, getting Elsa and company home and then discovering what Rumple was up to, how and when did Emma learn about what was going on with Marian and Robin? Boy, they really, really wanted that scene of them doing shots together if they skipped so much other stuff to make sure they could fit that in. 4 Link to comment
Souris January 14, 2015 Author Share January 14, 2015 Scott Nimerfro recently tweeted that he'd been assigned an episode. So we have that to "look forward" to. Link to comment
KingOfHearts January 14, 2015 Share January 14, 2015 (edited) Did Belle come back into town and tell everyone what happened Meanwhile, we got no reaction from Emma about seeing her boyfriend on the brink of death I blame this partially on poor episode layout and pacing. If they didn't want us to see the reactions to the major events, which is a common cliffhanger for finales, they shouldn't have filled the screentime with the Frozen epilogue and Boozing with Regina. Both of those scenes seemed superfluous and unnecessary. It would have been better for there to have been no CS scene at all than the 20 second fiasco there was. At least then we could expect to get the real scene in the spring premiere. Edited January 14, 2015 by KingOfHearts 1 Link to comment
ParadoxLost January 14, 2015 Share January 14, 2015 I blame this partially on poor episode layout and pacing. If they didn't want us to see the reactions to the major events, which is a common cliffhanger for finales, they shouldn't have filled the screentime with the Frozen epilogue and Boozing with Regina. Both of those scenes seemed superfluous and unnecessary. It would have been better for there to have been no CS scene at all than the 20 second fiasco there was. At least then we could expect to get the real scene in the spring premiere. I actually think the problem was that the tag should have been Cruella, Malificent, and Ursala. They shouldn't have shown up in the fairybacks at all. Its not that hard to follow through on Emma sensing something is wrong with Hook and use Rumpel's intent to take Henry to make Emma go to Belle asking questions, Belle use fake dagger to prove Rumpel's innocence, and Regina do a locator spell on the real dagger. Then you've got people dealing with the portions of 4A that weren't Frozen instead of setting up 4B. I am always amazed at the writers ability to turn a success into a failure. I find it really odd that they did such a good job of setting up anticipation for 3B in the 3A finale and then completely forget what worked (just tease) for the 4A finale. I won't even go into the tendency to tease moments and storylines they have no intention of telling. I really don't think I'm imagining the things they hint at, all the time, just because it seems like the better way to go. 2 Link to comment
Shanna Marie January 15, 2015 Share January 15, 2015 If they didn't want us to see the reactions to the major events, which is a common cliffhanger for finales, they shouldn't have filled the screentime with the Frozen epilogue and Boozing with Regina. But were the reactions really cliffhanger material? I suppose that the question of what Belle is going to do now and what she's doing with the dagger might be, but we saw Hook and Emma in the aftermath without getting any idea of her immediate reaction, and the six-week jump is going to mean we never really see her reaction. That wouldn't be such a big deal if they hadn't previously made the point that the big reason she was leery of getting into a relationship with him was that everyone she's loved has died and she couldn't bear to lose him, too. When you create that setup and then have him nearly die, right in front of her, her response is pretty damn important. If we're only going by what we see on screen and not taking into consideration the writing biases and flaws that by now we're accustomed to, then my read of what they set up and then showed us was that Emma is going to shut down on Hook. She restored his heart and was somewhat responsive to his kiss, but then she immediately extricated herself from the situation and went to drink with Regina, ostensibly to comfort Regina but possibly also as an excuse to do some serious drinking, herself, and I would expect that going forward she would be a bit icy with Hook. He'd interpret that as her disappointment in him, but really it would be about her protecting herself now that she's had it shoved in her face that she could lose him. I don't believe that will actually happen because that would be payoff to what they've set up, and they've shown themselves to be allergic to that. They wanted to see Emma doing shots with Regina, and they seem to believe that's what the audience wanted to see, and I guess they felt that was the only way to set up the house full of blank books cliffhanger (that wasn't really a cliffhanger), so they wrote it that way with no regard for logic or consistent characterization. The more I think about the Frozen epilogue, the less sense it makes. For one thing, there's the placement. As I recall, it came right before the Hook reheartening. That makes it look like the Frozen gang managed to return to Arendelle, take back the kingdom, defeat Hans, and throw together a royal wedding in the time between Emma learning that Rumple had lied about knowing Anna and the time Emma got Hook's heart back in his chest. Moving that scene between the reheartening and the shots might have helped, because it would have looked less like Emma ditched him to go drink. Except they still had the reheartening in the back hallway at Granny's rather than at the clock tower, and we don't know why they bothered walking across town instead of dealing with it right then and there. And it still implies that they managed to put together a royal wedding in one day in a kingdom that had been frozen for 30 years and had spent however long under control of a usurper. You'd think they'd have other priorities. That would have fit better as part of the "six weeks later" instead of being thrown in on that same day. But then there's the problem that they had a scene on television, a visual medium, that consisted of two characters talking about the exciting scene we didn't get to see. Instead of a wedding-day conversation between the sisters, it would have been far better to show Anna striding into the throne room, punching Hans, then saying, "Now, I believe I'm way overdue for my wedding." Except then there are the logistics of it all. It's been about 24 hours since Blackbeard and Hans dumped Anna and Kristoff into the middle of the ocean -- they arrived after the curse had been cast but before it hit, and they seem to have gone home the next day. How far from Arendelle was the Jolly Roger? Could Hans have even been back in Arendelle before Elsa and company got back? They could have been waiting for him when he arrived. And that makes for an even more interesting scene than the two sisters talking. It wouldn't even have had to be long, just Hans returning in what he thought was triumph to find Elsa waiting for him. 4 Link to comment
KingOfHearts January 15, 2015 Share January 15, 2015 (edited) But were the reactions really cliffhanger material? I wouldn't say they were cliffhanger material. I'd say having the lackluster scenes we got plus the six week time jump decreases their weight beyond measure. With that mind, we know we'll never get a legitimate Captain Swan reaction or a picture of what was going on in Belle's brain after the incident. The more I think about the Frozen epilogue, the less sense it makes. I liked the idea of them getting an epilogue, simply because their story in Arendelle needed some kind of conclusion, but it had a horrible placement in the episode. It was immediately after Rumple got thrown over the town line and right before Hook's reheartening, as you said. The Frozen gang should have had their farewell earlier in the episode or even in Shattered Sight. If it were in the episode prior, we could have opened this one with the epilogue, then stepped right into the action without having to stop. You'd think they'd have other priorities. That would have fit better as part of the "six weeks later" instead of being thrown in on that same day. They were trying to emulate the ending to Going Home with the time jump, but failed miserably. Sure its less confusing to have only one present day scene after the jump, but the other scenes don't match up. Too much ground covered in very little time, padded with odd scenes that weren't very productive. It's funny how PLOT PLOT PLOT things can be without actually getting much done. Edited January 15, 2015 by KingOfHearts 3 Link to comment
OnceUponAJen January 15, 2015 Share January 15, 2015 Also, in the shots scene I made a point of it to notice whether Emma was wearing the same outfit as in the re-hearting scene and she was. If not, I could have assumed that some time had passed between the two scenes. Or at least an outfit change. 1 Link to comment
RadioGirl27 January 15, 2015 Share January 15, 2015 There is only one word to explain the shots and it's queer-baiting. A&E have decided to alienate most of the audience to make happy a small group of bullies (that aren't even happy with it because a "friendship"is not what they want). 2 Link to comment
Shanna Marie January 15, 2015 Share January 15, 2015 I liked the idea of them getting an epilogue, simply because their story in Arendelle needed some kind of conclusion, but it had a horrible placement in the episode. They left enough hanging that an epilogue was needed, considering that the last time we saw Arendelle, Hans and his brothers had taken over and had apparently even managed to get the entire military on their side. Unfortunately, the epilogue we got didn't actually resolve that, just saying, "Whew, good thing we took care of that," which is about the lamest thing ever. It's like something out of a parody, where instead of having a fight scene, we just see the characters after the fight scene talking about what a great fight it was. They might as well not have bothered if this was all they were going to do with it. And then the timing didn't work at all because it was badly placed and made it seem as though they were having the wedding within an hour of their return. Considering that there wasn't much "cliffhanger" to the cliffhanger, just a slight suggestion that there was trouble to come, I think they did too much setup for the next arc. We didn't need the discovery of the books because that didn't really lend anything to anything. It made it look like they discovered that something might be horribly wrong with what Rumple was up to and left Henry alone to wander around a house that could apparently spontaneously generate portals. I'm all for having Henry accidentally fall through a portal (though then we'd be stuck with #SaveHenry2), but you'd think they'd had enough of that. Just the suggestion that Rumple was rounding up allies and planning a return should have been enough of a springboard for the next arc. Move everything else to the next episode and use that time to resolve this story. 2 Link to comment
KingOfHearts January 15, 2015 Share January 15, 2015 (edited) Move everything else to the next episode and use that time to resolve this story. I think the end scene would have been much more suspenseful if they hadn't introduced the Queens of Darkness in the flashbacks. The audience would be left guessing who the other two stops were, plus what Ursula had to do with anything. After seeing Ingrid pop through a portal to the Land Without Magic, in addition to all the other multi-realm taxi services, the fact Ursula was in the real world didn't resonate or bring as much mystery as much as it could have. Maybe they should have advertised, "Who's the new villain?" instead of "Introducing the three new villains!" I don't understand why they couldn't have introduced the gauntlet somehow earlier in the season, maybe in The Apprentice flashbacks or something. Perhaps Rumple could have used it to find the weakness to the hat's protection spell, or even the Apprentice's weakness. The Wishing Star, in all its contrived glory, was more thought-out and planned through. Edited January 15, 2015 by KingOfHearts 2 Link to comment
YaddaYadda January 15, 2015 Share January 15, 2015 Perhaps Rumple could have used it to find the weakness to the hat's protection spell, or even the Apprentice's weakness. This was pre-Belle, so timeline wise, it would not have worked, though to be perfectly honest, I'm not sure most of their timelines work. When I think of 411, it seems as though time in Arendelle moves at warp speed compared to the Land without Magic. They left like barely an hour ago, Anna has punched Hans off Elsa's throne, they found the 3 sisters portrait that is now hanging there, they are making chocolate (eye roll) somewhere in the castle and Anna is decked in her mother's wedding dress about to get married. Meanwhile, Emma is now having drinks with Regina, Henry is flailing in telling them about what he found. Six weeks later! (I don't remember if Arendelle came before or after they found the library). That being said, I really hated the Arendelle scene. I wish they were done with Arendelle in 409 like they were supposed to and focused on the SB characters. So my complaint still stands. Link to comment
KingOfHearts January 15, 2015 Share January 15, 2015 (edited) This was pre-Belle, so timeline wise, it would not have worked, though to be perfectly honest, I'm not sure most of their timelines work. True, but still it should have been introduced somewhere. Maybe the Henry/Belle scene could have played out earlier in the season, with Belle simply explaining the backstory without full flashbacks. Honestly, I don't think Rumple getting the gauntlet back justified enough anger for Belle to finally act. So, after getting seeds of doubt placed in, she wouldn't find a reason to use it until the finale. That way her turn on Rumple wouldn't have been so contrived, and Henry's job at Mr. Gold's shop would have actually contributed to the plot. Edited January 15, 2015 by KingOfHearts Link to comment
YaddaYadda January 15, 2015 Share January 15, 2015 Henry's job at Mr. Gold's shop would have actually contributed to the plot. I hear what you're saying, but at the same time, one of the things I am grateful for during 4A was how little screen time Henry had. Link to comment
KingOfHearts January 15, 2015 Share January 15, 2015 (edited) I hear what you're saying, but at the same time, one of the things I am grateful for during 4A was how little screen time Henry had. Same, but I don't think this would have added any more screentime for him. It's simply moving the scene and editing it a little. His role was just such an obvious Chekhov's Gun that it annoys me it was totally worthless. They had him at the end of an episode sweeping the floor with the Sorcerer's Apprentice music playing like it was some twist or foreshadowing. But nope. Edited January 15, 2015 by KingOfHearts 2 Link to comment
Shanna Marie January 15, 2015 Share January 15, 2015 Honestly, I don't think Rumple getting the gauntlet back justified enough anger for Belle to finally act. So, after getting seeds of doubt placed in, she wouldn't find a reason to use it until the finale. If they'd set up Belle properly and showed the seeds of doubt being planted, would she even have needed the gauntlet? I still don't see how him having the gauntlet she thought he'd traded for her was such a damning clue. He could have taken the gauntlet back later, given the Queens a fake or otherwise tricked them, and that has nothing to do with the power vs. Belle issue. They weren't in a relationship at the time, and it wasn't as though he used that situation to impress her or get into her pants, so he wasn't playing games to manipulate her. It's on her if she decided to get starry-eyed because he gave up the gauntlet for her. They actually set up a lot of the clues, but they didn't set up the part where Belle noticed anything -- like him refusing to help save Emma from the ice cave in, him subtly disobeying dagger orders, him having to be persuaded to help in other situations, the stuff the mirror told her. She had a lot to be mad about, but focusing on the fact that the thing she took as a huge sign of how good he was turned out to be fake just made her look petulant. I think it would have been more fun if she'd run into Anna in spite of Rumple's machinations with Hook. Then she'd have known he was lying to her here and now, during their marriage. We probably did need at least one flashback of Ursula so we'd recognize her when Rumple ran into her in the present, given that the last time we saw her, she was played by a different actress and didn't seem to be a villain (she gave Regina a smackdown, which puts her on "team good" until proven otherwise in my book). The others they could have gathered along the way. Them hanging out like some warped sorority was kind of silly. They left like barely an hour ago, Anna has punched Hans off Elsa's throne, they found the 3 sisters portrait that is now hanging there, they are making chocolate (eye roll) somewhere in the castle and Anna is decked in her mother's wedding dress about to get married. Meanwhile, Emma is now having drinks with Regina, Henry is flailing in telling them about what he found. Six weeks later! (I don't remember if Arendelle came before or after they found the library). As I recall, the timeline was that the Arendelle gang said good-bye, with Anna springing the "oh, I know Rumple!' surprise, then there was the showdown in the clock tower (that Emma and Snow miraculously got to on the basis of the bombshell news that Rumple lied), then the showdown on the town line, then the Arendelle epilogue with the pre-wedding scene, then Hook's reheartening, then the shots, then Henry showing up to tell about the books, then him showing Emma and Regina the secret room of blank books. Then six weeks later with Rumple. I don't think we saw Arendelle or Storybrooke in the six weeks later part. There was nothing to indicate that the Arendelle epilogue wasn't linear. 1 Link to comment
KingOfHearts January 16, 2015 Share January 16, 2015 (edited) We probably did need at least one flashback of Ursula so we'd recognize her when Rumple ran into her in the present Well, Rumple does call her by name. They could have maybe thrown in a joke like, "You look thinner without the tentacles" or something as well. I think it would have been more fun if she'd run into Anna in spite of Rumple's machinations with Hook. Then she'd have known he was lying to her here and now, during their marriage. If Belle hadn't been knocked out by her "loving husband", then I would have loved this. Belle: "I came to apologize. I never got over letting you fall off that cliff and now I realize saving a life was more important than getting my memories back. When we were looking for you here in Storybrooke, I didn't tell anyone what happened because I was so ashamed. Not even my husband, Rumple." Anna: "Wait... Rumple? As in Rumplestiltskin?" Edited January 16, 2015 by KingOfHearts Link to comment
KAOS Agent January 16, 2015 Share January 16, 2015 I was thinking that they could have had Henry find the room of books in "Smash the Mirror" (perhaps have had Rumpel seal Emma in and have everyone searching for a way to get into where she was and Henry stumbles onto it) or just have it be discovered at the beginning of 4B. They're going to have to remind the audience about Operation Blame the Author anyway and it wasn't really a cliffhanger, so why not open the second half with that? While I agree that they needed to give Frozen an epilogue, it didn't work with the flow of this episode or make any sense in terms of what they'd told us timeline-wise. Since Anna & Kristoff had just left Blackbeard and Hans in the Enchanted Forest the day before and they had explicitly stated it had taken them two weeks to travel from Arendelle to there when they boarded the Jolly Roger. Using the door directly to Arendelle would mean that they would have been home weeks before Hans got back to take the throne. All of which meant that there was really no rush to get back to Arendelle instantly because Hans wasn't there nor would he be for at least a week. Mostly I think A&E got so caught up with their Regina love and their shiny new villain toys that everything else just got the shaft. Regina just feels so much pain that we needed six scenes of her dealing with the Robin angst. Seriously. Shows where their priorities lie. Emma/Hook resolution got 25 seconds. Outlaw Queen had about a quarter of the episode. The writers have consistently added new storylines without properly closing their existing ones, but usually they manage to distract from it with something. Unfortunately, the 4A finale failed to satisfy on pretty much every level so that there was nothing to distract from the disappointment. 4 Link to comment
FormerMod-a1 January 16, 2015 Share January 16, 2015 (edited) Please use this guideline when deciding what to post here vs elsewhere. If you're talking about why the writers' had a character make a certain choice/decision/action/inaction, that would go here. If you're talking about why a character made a certain choice/decision/action/inaction, that would go somewhere else. Additional guidelines (July 15, 2015): Not every piece of information from an interview with Adam & Eddy belongs here. Unless it relates specifically to writing decisions it should be in another thread (Media, Spoilers, etc). Discussions about acting choices do not belong here. There are plenty of other threads to talk about the actors and characters. (Thanks for the wording, amerilla.) Edited July 15, 2015 by yeswedo updated guidelines Link to comment
KingOfHearts January 16, 2015 Share January 16, 2015 I'm not a fan of the half-season format going on right now. It's one of my biggest complaints. It's structured like a cartoon but it's got the format of a deeply written drama. Going the episodic route is okay, but it's awkward when laid on top of two seasons worth of serialized, three-dimensional character development. It's built to be complex, not over-simplified. The truly sad part is the writers want both - they want Saturday morning cartoons and a deep, adult drama. You can't have everything, dearie! Going back on the subject of consequences, you could probably go from S2 to the finale season, be told a few key plot details, and still be up to speed. There's been no game changers or change in the main plot. There is only one goal that is constantly recycled - kill the Big Bad of the Week. Now if it were simply a new story every show, that'd be swell, but that isn't what we were promised originally. The repetition is beginning to hit me hard. I fully expect the Queens of Darkness to all die. 5 Link to comment
Dani-Ellie January 17, 2015 Share January 17, 2015 I'm not a fan of the half-season format going on right now. It's one of my biggest complaints. It's structured like a cartoon but it's got the format of a deeply written drama. I watched the Mary Margaret/Emma scene from the end of "True North" (where Emma tells Mary Margaret that Henry thinks Snow White's her mother) the other day for old times' sake and was struck by how absolutely lovely it was. I always thought it was lovely -- it was my favorite scene in all of season 1 -- but it was one of those scenes where nothing super-duper plot-y happened. Mary Margaret's folding laundry and Emma's lounging on her bed and the two of them are just talking. It's just ... where the hell are the scenes like that now? Because they're trying to cram entire arcs into 11 episodes now as opposed to 22, there isn't time for those scenes. Pacing has always been a problem for this show but I think I'd rather deal with a couple of dull filler episodes while the arc spans a full season than have so much plot build-up get resolved with a ten-second kiss or hug because they're trying to do so. much. at once. It wouldn't be so repetitive if they hadn't blown through three classic villains in a season and a half. And now we've got three for eleven episodes! The stories they're trying to tell are so. damn. rich but because of the story structure, they don't have the time to really delve into those stories properly. It's all surface-level, and when they try to go deeper (like the issues Ingrid brought up for Emma), they don't really deliver on the follow-through. It's so frustrating because with just a little more time and care for character over plot and attention to detail, this show could be amazing. 7 Link to comment
Curio January 17, 2015 Share January 17, 2015 (edited) I watched the Mary Margaret/Emma scene from the end of "True North" (where Emma tells Mary Margaret that Henry thinks Snow White's her mother) the other day for old times' sake and was struck by how absolutely lovely it was. I always thought it was lovely -- it was my favorite scene in all of season 1 -- but it was one of those scenes where nothing super-duper plot-y happened. Mary Margaret's folding laundry and Emma's lounging on her bed and the two of them are just talking. It's just ... where the hell are the scenes like that now? Because they're trying to cram entire arcs into 11 episodes now as opposed to 22, there isn't time for those scenes. While the split-season/11-episode structure is easy to blame for the crazy pacing issues and the lack of "laundry folding scenes," I don't think that's what is truly at fault here. I think it just comes down to the writers refusing to adjust their story structure formulas to better fit the shorter seasons. Things they've been doing since Seasons 1 and 2 like showing flashbacks about the history of the villains/characters we'll never see again, repeated dialogue explaining the exposition, pointless scenes given to characters just because their actor's name appears in the title cards, and too much time spent on Regina grieving were less noticeable in the 22-episode structure, but they're glaringly obvious in an 11-episode structure. Just because the issues are more noticeable doesn't mean we should go back to the 22-episode arcs, though. I actually really enjoy the shortened story arcs compared to the ambling 22-episode seasons where you felt like the story would never end, but I also see why the shorter seasons aren't enjoyable because the writers still throw in pointless scenes that take up precious story time. So I say I'm on team 11-episodes, but anti-pointless flashbacks/exposition. The problem here is that Adam & Eddy created these shortened story arcs (in theory) to cut out the fat and only show important scenes to amp up the drama, but they've somehow managed to do the complete opposite of that. I don't know how they did it, but they've miraculously added more and more pointless scenes, even though they should know the shorter time schedule requires you to only show what's important to the storyline. I can think of so many 4A scenes that could have been cut to fit in more laundry folding scenes or quiet character moments. For example, what was the whole point of Henry working in Gold's shop? There was literally no payoff for it since Gold knew Henry's scheme from the start, Henry discovered no important information about the author because of the job, and Henry didn't even really bond with Gold at all. Every single scene of Henry at the pawnshop could have been taken out and the season would not have been affected by it. Those scenes could have mattered if Henry either 1) found information about Gold blackmailing Hook via the tampered VHS footage or overheard Hook's voice message, 2) discovered something new about the author, 3) found an extra dagger lying around to amp up the tension in the Belle/Rumple/dagger plot, or 4) bonded with Rumple and really embraced him as a grandfather so that Rumple's banishment from Storybrooke would have more emotional depth to it. But astonishingly, the writers managed to not hit on any of these points. Not a single one. Basically, the 11-episode structure works great if the writers are good about choosing which scenes they show and how they pace the story. Plenty of other dramas fit their seasons into 9-13 episode long seasons without too many issues. Unfortunately, we get scenes like Bo Peep as a warlord, a million Frozen references, Anna interacting with every single character in the past, Regina wailing about the unfairness of the author, Henry working in the pawnshop, Snow turning the power back on by herself, whatever the hell Will was doing, long strolls down the street discussing sex, and Belle's flashback adventure. None of those scenes added actual substance to the main story. Get rid of all that crap and you finally have room for some character moments. Edited January 17, 2015 by Curio 11 Link to comment
Mari January 17, 2015 Share January 17, 2015 And the 11 episode split wouldn't have to split the villain for the season. If they slowed the pace down a little and paid off the scenes they set up and never return to, they could easily do a miniclimax at the midseason break. All they'd have to do is have one of the teams--Team Storybrooke or Team Villain have a big win, and a teaser about what's to come. It would've been harder to do with Pan--or I just don't have the imagination right now to come up with a Pan plan--but Zelena could easily have been a season arc. If they'd had the curse reset have actual consequences, it would've worked. The occasional mystery of the week, with the Storybrookers overall story trying to figure out how they got back, while the flashbacks had the growing danger of Zelena? They could've had the midseason break end with something like the memory curse breaking and the audience discovering that they'd failed, and Zelena had made it to Storybrooke after all. 8 Link to comment
KingOfHearts January 17, 2015 Share January 17, 2015 (edited) I agree with Mari. I don't think the 11-episode arc is inherently a bad concept, as many shows adopt this in some form or fashion. However, it's this show. Telling an entire bookend-to-bookend story in that time with so many moving parts and characters, and with these writers is an absolute mess. It worked with Neverland and by a lesser extent Frozen because of the heavy focus on the universe's story. But with Oz, it was a total and utter disaster. There were not one, two or three areas to explore, but five - The Missing Year, Oz, Storybrooke, pre-curse Enchanted Forest flashbacks, and the time travel. That could easily fill in a whole season. We spent a whole episode about a flashback of characters totally irrelevant to the present day events (3x18). A&E will cram everything in, but still manage to find time to insert plot lines that will go nowhere. With these writers, the 11-episode arc is another excuse to ignore coherency. It's not bad per se, but it's this show. Edited January 17, 2015 by KingOfHearts 9 Link to comment
Camera One January 17, 2015 Share January 17, 2015 (edited) To A&E, characters washing dishes and talking would be boring, so instead, from S2 on, they have literally adopted the "everything but the kitchen sink" approach. Whereby they literally throw everything they can think of for these half-season arcs. Part of it is they seem to have an obsessive need to have multiple "twists" or "clever" allusions in every episode. That takes up time. For example, with Curio's example above, the writers wanted the "twist" of showing how Belle originally found out about Rumple and they needed to tie her to Frozen, so they conceived of that horrible flashback that didn't do Belle or the audience any favors. The writers wanted to pay homage to the Sorcerer's Apprentice, so they had Henry working at Gold's store and sweeping. Full stop. That's it. Yes, they need to give screentime to peripheral characters like Henry or Snow, who didn't get a major role in the Frozen/Outlaw Queen/Hat trifecta of plot in 3A. But instead of integrating Snow (or Henry, etc.) into the Frozen storyline, they instead gave her screentime with that random mayoral plot. Which wasn't a bad idea, and I even enjoyed it, but they just dropped it midway. These types of ideas could be good if they had invested more time into it, and if there was payoff, in Snow learning to balance family and work, gaining confidence as a leader, etc. The show improved with the focus on one world and one underlying flashback story with Frozen, and now they're going to do Sleeping Beauty, the Saga Under the Sea AND 101 Dalmatians, on top of the Knave of Hearts, Robin Hood (if he returns) and the Sorcerer? I don't see how the writing wouldn't as fragmented as hell. I think we're going into uncharted choppy writing waters here, since at least 3A was united by Neverland, 3B by Oz and 4A by Frozen (in theory). Can A&E actually produce a coherent story out of this? I seriously have my doubts. Edited January 17, 2015 by Camera One 6 Link to comment
Souris January 17, 2015 Author Share January 17, 2015 Can A&E actually produce a coherent story out of this? I seriously have my doubts. I'll put $200 on "No." And another $100 on "Hell, no." 2 Link to comment
KAOS Agent January 17, 2015 Share January 17, 2015 If they were willing to go back to the more episodic nature of Season 1, they could maybe pull it off. Cruella certainly fits into more a Monster of the Week type tale than master villain. Even Ursula could be used as a more limited perpetual villain because she should be tied to the sea. Who other than Hook really has any real connection to the sea and why should Ursula care what's happening on land? I am not at all hopeful that 4B will be coherent. Then again, the writers are rarely coherent in their interviews, so why should I expect it in their writing? Does anyone remember them being asked what a soulmate is and their complete and utter inability to explain it? That right there shows their massive weakness in telling a good tale. They have broad strokes in setting something up, but fail on the detail level. Superficiality doesn't work when you need to engage an audience. I need to know why a soulmate is so important in order to truly engage in Outlaw Queen (not that that will ever happen, but still). What makes these two soulmates and how does that differ from true love? What makes it so special and why is it fated? Would it be possible to hate your soulmate? Are they trying to say that if you lose your soulmate you can never find love again? When writing a storyline like this, the writers need to understand what their story is and it's very clear that they don't have the faintest idea beyond pixie dust magic says so. 2 Link to comment
myril January 17, 2015 Share January 17, 2015 (edited) Does anyone remember them being asked what a soulmate is and their complete and utter inability to explain it? That right there shows their massive weakness in telling a good tale. Following the discussion on different forums about this show and remembering discussions about other shows, to me it sounds like a lot of people have no clear-cut concept of soul mate and true love, let alone would be able to make a clear difference between those two terms, the writers of OUaT are not alone. Often enough it is used interchangeably, and I still think that the writers did that on this show as well. The problem was, they felt like they suddenly had to make a difference, because people asked about it, lacking the subtlety to foresee, people would ask about a difference, and they didn't seem to have felt a need to think it through before. Not to mention, it was not just that Robin and Regina met, looked at each other and fell instantly for each other, a higher power, fate came most visibly into to play with these two because of the use of pixie dust. If digging deeper into these terms things can actually get even more confusing, because we use the term soul mate, influenced by New Age ideas, somewhat different nowadays. But most people have no clue where the idea of true love might come from, what even the difference between true love and (just?) love should actually be. I could live very fine with the view, that the characters on the show themselves might have some different views on what makes a love true and a soul mate special, it could be great to reflect on that. But then the writers would have to be seriously interested in the inner worlds of the characters and not let them be driven as much by outer instances as they do. The outer instance should bring the inner conflicts out into the open, make them visible for the audience. The frustrating thing for me is: The ingredients are all there, and they even seem to kinda aim at it, but somehow they manage to fall short pretty much every time. Even randomly they should hit the mark once in a while, but could been seen as like some fate (author?) works against their (the writers') happy ending, so to speak. (and I better stop with the Meta, that is way too much contemplation for this show). Now I don't believe in fate at all, so either they don't want to go there or lack the means to do it (be it lack of skill or because of restriction by the business). I agree, considering that they are writing a show about fairy tales, and I would say thanks to Disney to many that means mainly about the theme of true love, the writers should have done some research on true love concepts and given it some thoughts before throwing it like this out into the world. At least if they want to write good drama and not just goofy fun (although to write great goofy fun you have to have some deeper going understanding of what you goof about IMO). They have great story ideas, but they fail at giving these ideas substance and depth. Edited January 17, 2015 by katusch 2 Link to comment
KingOfHearts January 17, 2015 Share January 17, 2015 If they were willing to go back to the more episodic nature of Season 1, they could maybe pull it off. Season 1 was episodic without abandoning the main plot. That Still Small Voice, for example. Yes we saw Jiminy's story, but we also saw Emma becoming Sheriff, her powers causing the mines to collapse, the presence of the dwarf mines, plus Snow White's glass coffin at the bottom of the shaft. All of that was relevant to the main story. At that point in time the show was also setting up each character and their backstory, al a Lost S1. The flashbacks weren't as pointless as Lost Girl's or Nasty Habits'. 6 Link to comment
Popular Post Curio January 17, 2015 Popular Post Share January 17, 2015 (edited) The frustrating thing for me is: The ingredients are all there, and they even seem to kinda aim at it, but somehow they manage to fall short pretty much every time. That's the most frustrating thing for me, too. The writers create these great three-dimensional characters and relationships, set up interesting plots and mysteries at the beginning of an arc, and even manage to have fleeting moments of brilliance occasionally. But every season, the writers fail to pay off most of the plots they introduce at the beginning of the season, leaving the audience unsatisfied, confused, and irrationally angry at the end of the story. I'd love to be a fly on the wall during one of those writing bootcamps that occur before every season, just to see where things go awry. I feel like a lot of Once's issues could be fixed with better or more detailed outlining before the beginning of the season. (It's clear that they're extremely flexible with their outlines if they can randomly add more scenes into an episode that was already shot.) I realize that it's impossible to record every detail and nuance that will go into each episode before the season begins, but Adam & Eddy should have a pretty decent idea of what the main season's plot points will be and how those plots need to be paced throughout the season. Using 4A as an example, here are the 10 big plot points the writers introduced to us in the beginning of the season: Introduce Elsa and the Frozen characters to the world of Storybrooke. Introduce Marian into the Outlaw Queen "love triangle." Introduce Emma's resistance towards starting a relationship with Hook. Introduce Snow struggling to be a new mom and a mayor. Introduce the Snow Queen and how she ties in with Emma's past. Introduce Emma's internal battle with accepting and developing her magic. Introduce the Sorcerer's hat plot and how Rumple will respond to it. Introduce the new feud between Rumple and Hook. Introduce Will Scarlet and how he relates to Robin. Introduce the author plot and Operation Fuck Rational Thinking. In an 11-episode season structure, the writers should have been able to resolve most or all of these plots in a satisfying way by the midseason finale. (Oh wait, I'm sorry...12! They actually had even more time to resolve the plots this half season!) So let's look at these 10 points and see where they went wrong. 1. Overall, I think the Frozen plot was the best handled in terms of introducing new characters, a new mystery, and having an ending that bookended the opening shot nicely. The fact that this was the best handled plot on the show doesn't really make Adam & Eddy look better, though, since this was the plot that had the most Disney executive eyeballs on it. When you have John Lasseter flying up to Vancouver to make sure you don't screw up the Frozen characters, you'd better hope the end product is well-constructed. However, there were still some areas where the Frozen storyline could have been improved. There were way too many flashbacks with Anna and her convenient run-ins with every single member of Storybrooke. The two characters Anna needed to run into to make things more dramatic in Storybrooke (Belle and Rumple) never happened. Yes, she ran into David and they had a cute exchange about his hair, but Belle and Rumple were the two characters she needed to interact with to make the dagger storyline more dramatic. Imagine if she ran into Rumple and she had an oh shit it's you moment. Imagine if she ran into Belle and discovered she was married to that evil wizard she encountered in the past who she even warned Belle about during their rock climbing adventure. Talk about dramatic irony! But no, all Anna does is quickly turn around right before she walks through the portal door and casually asks who "Gold" is. Because, you know, that's not convoluted at all. 2. Regina was going to kill Marian in the past. Regina had Marian locked in a cell and was going to kill her, along with Emma. (It bears repeating.) Regina is the reason Robin had to raise Roland as a single father. So when Marian comes back into the picture...nothing happens? In the first episode of 4A, we all cheered when Marian called Regina out for being a monster because - guess what? - she deserved it. Yes, Regina has done a lot of character growth since then, but Marian had every right to yell at the woman who tortured her and was about to execute her hours ago in her timeline. Do we know how Robin feels about that? No. We don't even know if Robin realizes Regina was the one who killed Marian in the previous timeline. Do we know how Marian feels about her husband dating the woman who nearly killed her? Besides Marian calling her a "monster," no. You know why? Because Marian is literally frozen for the rest of the season. Why introduce an obstacle into a love triangle and then promptly take that obstacle out for the rest of the season? And when she does come back into the love triangle, she undergoes a personality lobotomy and is suddenly 100% okay with Regina and Robin being a couple. When did that happen? Did Marian have a revelation while she was asleep that made her realize Regina is a hero now because she happened to save her from a snow monster one time? Why weren't we shown Robin's reaction to finding out Regina was the one who might have killed Marian? Were the writers too afraid of Robin having a negative reaction to their favorite character? Were the writers afraid the audience wouldn't accept Robin and Regina as a couple if they showed his reaction to that on screen? Newsflash: even though you refused to show us that important plot piece, we still don't like Robin and Regina as a couple. 3. Emma started the season out avoiding Hook and was rather "prickly" towards him. We later learn Emma was behaving this way because she's afraid Hook will die just like every other man she's had feelings for. When Emma finally opens up to Hook, she asks him out on a date, but the audience doesn't get to see the actual date. All we see are two characters entering a restaurant and a sitcom-worthy wine spill, but no actual character/relationship development. And then what happens when Hook almost dies in the finale? Emma doesn't get to react to it and everything's hunky-dory because they get to make out next to the bathrooms in Granny's. We've all talked about this issue in these forums enough so moving on... 4. Snow struggling with baby [insert the name of Emma's ex boyfriend] could have been a really interesting arc for Snow and David and we could have gotten some insight into how they would have raised Emma as a child. We also could have been shown how Emma feels about baby [insert the name of Emma's ex boyfriend] and we could have gotten some nice Charming family moments in their loft and their journey to redefine what their "family" is. We could have had moments where Emma couldn't fall asleep because the baby was crying but she lets Snow go back to sleep by offering to take care of the baby at 2:00am. We could have had David giving Snow some tough love about how she was the one who pushed Emma too far and forced her to run away. We could have gotten an awkward Charming family dinner with Hook joining for the first time. Instead, Snow can't deal with any family issues because she's given the Mayor job title after Regina acts like a 5-year-old who just lost their favorite toy and didn't want the job for herself. Oh, wait. No. It's because Snow "cast" the curse and because of that, she's suddenly given the title of Mayor. I'm sorry, but I'm pretty sure that's not how it works? Even if those were the weird "rules" for this new curse, Storybrooke is a democracy and Snow can refuse the title of Mayor if she wants. There could have been an election held and Granny could have won. What would have been more interesting is if the townspeople were crying out for Mayor Regina, but she's no where to be found since she's pouting in her crypt. Naturally, they go to Snow and David because they were their rulers in the Enchanted Forest. Snow wouldn't want to take on doing mayoral duties because she has a newborn baby, so she seeks out Regina and tries to convince her to come out of hiding and act like a freaking adult. Ginny and Lana would be happy because they'd get a bonding scene where Regina officially gives up her title and hands it over to Snow because she knows she's their true leader. Character development! Later on in the season, instead of talking about crypt sex on the road, Snow could have reached her breaking point and smacked some sense back into Regina. "Listen, I'm sorry your boyfriend's wife is back in the picture, but you need to woman up. My daughter is missing and it's partially my fault, so I need to find her before something bad happens to her. I can't do everything. I know you're hurting, but please, this town needs a better Mayor right now. I need you to be Mayor." I'm not a fan of Regina ass-kissing, but I'd take that a thousand times over what we actually got on screen. 5. I actually really enjoyed the Snow Queen by the end of her arc and I think her plot, along with the Frozen storyline, was one of the better handled story lines this season. Again, I feel like we could have cut out a good chunk of the flashbacks with the sisters at the ball and some of Ingrid's journey when she first got to The Land Without Magic. But overall, this was one of the few plots that didn't overstay its welcome, but was also emotionally satisfying. Heck, I was tearing up a bit when the Snow Queen decided to sacrifice herself at the end. And bonus points for her plot being a nice segue into learning more about Emma's past! 6. Emma embracing her magic was a plot Adam & Eddy promised would be a large part of 4A. Instead, we get a needlessly long and extended episode where Emma stands in front of a door for 30 minutes deciding whether or not she wants to open it. Sure, we were shown 5 seconds of Emma practicing with Elsa in the police station earlier, and the Snow Queen managed to tap into some of Emma's rage to get her magical explosion to be more powerful, but we weren't really shown Emma actually practicing and using her magic to its fullest potential this season. We saw some progress when Emma used her magic to create the fireworks and break down Regina's crypt spell during the Shattered Sight episode, but when it came down to the final battles between Ingrid and Rumple, Emma's magic is completely useless. What's the point in developing her magic all season when she can't even use it to save the people she loves? Isn't that classic hero's journey? Character is at first reluctant to take on the role of savior, but by the end, they embrace the title and save the day? Especially when their loved one who they're afraid of losing is about to die? If we don't see Emma practicing a spell that can deflect Rumple freezing her in 4B, I'll flip some tables. 7. Introducing the sorcerer's box/hat was one of the most intriguing plots at the beginning of 4A, but there was a huge disconnect between what the writers were trying to show us and what the audience actually interpreted. The writers claim that Rumple was mentally suffering because of being resurrected and Zelena imprisoning him in 3B, so he couldn't resist this new powerful magic. But we weren't shown that on screen. We also weren't shown what happens to the people who get sucked into the hat, or pretty much any mythology behind it. We weren't shown how the hat affected Rumple and Belle's relationship because she was asleep (along with Marian) for most of the season. We didn't get to see Belle think about what the mirror told herself and her being conflicted over those doubts. Everything basically got swept under the rug until the final minutes of the finale. 8. The renewed feud between Rumple and Hook... Ah, what could have been. I was actually really excited for the writers to revisit this storyline since it was already established that these two characters hate each other and probably always will. Unfortunately, the writers never capitalized on this fully and everything Rumple forced Hook to do never had any consequence to it. Hook is forced to hold down the Apprentice and there's VHS footage of it? Doesn't matter, it's never brought back up again. Hook is given his hand back and it makes him do bad things? Doesn't matter, his hook is restored at the end of the episode, Emma had a great time during the Offscreenville date, and Will never gets to put Hook back in his place by punching him (and not missing). Hook is forced to suck all the fairies into the hat? No worries, Emma will forgive him offscreen during the 6-week hiatus and we'll never know how Hook feels about any of it. Hook doesn't tell Emma about the magical hat and leaves her a voicemail that could potentially make her break up with him? Haha screw you let's delete that message and never talk about it again. Even Adam & Eddy have said Hook shouldn't be held responsible for anything he did while being blackmailed by Rumple. So if that's the case, why reintroduce the storyline to begin with if it doesn't even affect Hook's character? 9. The introduction of Will Scarlet was cute with Emma and Charming chasing him through the woods. There was intrigue after he broke into the library and read a book about Alice in Wonderland. And then...nothing. Listen, I get that the writers wanted to ease his character in and they hopefully have better plans for him in 4B, but why not tell us what the heck he was searching for at the beach? Or have him be a vital clue in figuring out what was wrong with heartless Hook since he went through the same experience? (Not that Emma would have done anything with that information, since she ignored every red flag about Hook all season.) But seriously, writers. You had the perfect opportunity for Will to recognize what was wrong with Hook and his missing heart. That's the definition of low-hanging fruit. Will could have been a secret team member in lets-take-down-Rumple or could have been a double-agent of sorts as he and Hook tried to get the heart back. Or something. Anything. Do we know how Will feels about Marian returning from the dead? Do we know how he feels about Robin leaving Storybrooke? Does he have his old apartment back? Is he the new leader of the Merry Men now that Robin is gone? How does he feel about babysitting Roland all the time while Robin is off banging Regina? What did he do with that money he stole from the cash register? Where the hell is Anastasia? 10. For a plot that's clearly going to be a huge part of 4B, the writers completely butchered the introduction of Operation Mongoose. It doesn't help that the entire plot is illogical, either. How many times did we really need to show Regina researching the author and running into a dead end? How many times did we need to show Henry attempting to be helpful but getting absolutely no where? This was a plot that could have been introduced midway through 4A instead of at the beginning. Actually, I take that back. This is a plot that shouldn't exist at all. This post is already a lot longer than I had anticipated, so I'll try to wrap up my main point. The outlining process during the writers' bootcamp should have gone through every episode and noted the major turning points for each of those 10 plots. They should have been able to say: "Okay, Episode 7 is when Emma's magic goes haywire, Episode 8 is when she comes to accept them, and Episode 11 is when she uses them to help defeat Rumple stands around and does nothing." When looking back at each episode individually and how each episode advanced certain plot lines, there's one episode in particular that truly fails to advance any of these plot lines: "Breaking Glass." Here's the episode description from imdb: Regina reluctantly teams up with Emma to search for the Snow Queen after Sidney, who is once again Regina's prisoner in the mirror, discovers her whereabouts and agrees to lead her to the location. With Belle babysitting baby Neal, a nervous Mary Margaret and David prepare for their first date night away from their child and find themselves on a mission to track down Will Scarlet, who has escaped from the town jail, and Elsa sees Anna in the Storybrooke woods. Meanwhile, back in the past, young Emma finds herself a kindred spirit when she befriends a girl who, like her, is a runaway orphan. I'm sorry, but since when did "Emma needs to make sure she and Regina are still on friendly terms" become a major plot point of 4A? So much so that we had to spend an entire episode about it? It wasn't even the B-Plot or the C-Plot, it was the freaking A-Plot. (For comparison, Hook and Emma's date was finished before the second half hour point.) Even if we consider Emma attempting to give Regina a happy ending as minor plot point #11, they managed to completely screw that up, too. We were given a scene where Emma promises Regina she'll fight for her happy ending in the premiere (but she won't fight for her boyfriend when she realizes something is wrong with him...), we're given this worthless episode that didn't do their relationship any favors, and then literally nothing happens between the two of them until Emma decides to mock Regina's lack of a happy ending by mentioning Hook and then the shots scene. Which, guess what that means Emma? You failed at giving Regina her happy ending. Plot point status = FAILED. Regina and Emma tracking down the Snow Queen didn't even advance the Snow Queen plot since all it accumulated to was a lame battle against a CGI viking and Regina confessing she doesn't want to kill Emma. Most of the audience knew that already. Emma didn't get to react to the fact that Regina was holding Sidney hostage all this time. Nothing in this episode advanced the plot at all until the final seconds. Snow following Will on the beach lead to no where because we don't know what the heck he was even searching for and his character was basically dropped the rest of the season. Elsa didn't learn anything new about her sister's whereabouts. Emma is shown to not trust someone in the past - shocker. The only good thing that came out of that episode was the final 5 minutes between Hook and Emma with her childhood box and discovering the video tape that finally advanced the plot after 43 minutes of bullshit. So next season, I really hope the writers learn from their mistakes, cut out useless episodes and scenes, and actually attempt to give their main plot points they introduce in the beginning satisfying endings. I hope they actually outline each episode before the season starts and try not to squeeze every resolution into the last episode. And for the love of Granny's lasagne, let's try and throw in some character moments here and there. Kitchen sink scenes aren't boring when you write them well, Adam & Eddy! They can even *gasp* advance the plot. And if you managed to read all of that incoherent rambling, congratulations! Have a cookie. Edited January 17, 2015 by Curio 26 Link to comment
RadioGirl27 January 17, 2015 Share January 17, 2015 (edited) Curio, the only thing I can add to your post is this http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110705203442/glee/images/3/38/Orson-welles-clapping.gif Edited January 17, 2015 by RadioGirl27 1 Link to comment
Camera One January 17, 2015 Share January 17, 2015 (edited) Such an awesome summary of the issues with 4A, and how it could have been so much better written. Edited January 17, 2015 by Camera One 1 Link to comment
The Cake is a Pie January 18, 2015 Share January 18, 2015 I only regret I have but one "like" to give. 5 Link to comment
Kktjones January 18, 2015 Share January 18, 2015 Curio - I love your post so much that I had to get an account just so I could like it! Yes to everything you said. This show actually sets up some interesting story lines, but I have absolutely no faith in their ability to deliver. 3 Link to comment
Souris January 18, 2015 Author Share January 18, 2015 (edited) Emma is shown to not trust someone in the past - shocker. The only good thing that came out of that episode was the final 5 minutes between Hook and Emma with her childhood box and discovering the video tape that finally advanced the plot after 43 minutes of bullshit. A wonderful, wonderful meta on the half-season's issues. Huzzah! Because 4x05 still causes me to want to flip every table on the planet, I'll just pick this one bit out: They showed & explained the video at the start of the next ep, so 4x05 was basically utterly pointless to the overall plot of 4A. It could be excised from the season like an ugly wart, and it wouldn't affect a damn thing except lowering my blood pressure. It just goes to show how CRAP they are with pacing and recognizing what's actually important to show and what they simply WANT to show. (Apparently, having an SQ ep and Regina insulting Emma was their most important aspect of the season.) They wasted this entire ep and all the extra filler in the two-hour ep and ended up rushing through the finale at warp speed, leaving out critical scenes and explanations that, like you said, left fans dissatisfied, confused and frustrated. Sadly, I don't think they will learn a thing, because I don't think they see a thing wrong with their methods. If they haven't learned by now, they never will. They are idea people, not execution people. Edited January 18, 2015 by Souris 3 Link to comment
KingOfHearts January 19, 2015 Share January 19, 2015 (edited) A quote from an article, not about Once, but it applies to the writing here as well. "The fans are so polarized in what they are rooting for that to appease all of them the show would be gobbledygook," Dries said. "It wouldn't make any sense." It's no question that the fandom is polarized. There's several factions only watching for their respective ship. Some viewers want to go slow, others bore easily. Some loathe the very ground Regina steps on, others worship it. It's sometimes wonky, weird, diverse and fanatical. What the writers should take into consideration is that "fans" do not always mean "viewers". You may have a group of fans who only want to see Belle episodes, but that doesn't mean the larger portion of the viewership do too. Fans often have louder voices, thus its easy to treat their opinions as gospel truth... though much of the time, it's not. In an ideal world, A&E could stick to their vision and carry out the story they've always wanted to tell. This, however, is a TV show. They want to cater to every minority, but more often than not, this displeases the majority. Taking Breaking Glass, the infamous "Swan Queen" episode, for example. It was a 42-minute fan service that had little to do with the actual story. Ratings took a dip. Fan appreciation or references are fine and dandy, but it's almost never a good idea to center an entire episode around a handful of people's wishes. I fear this is only going to continue in the future. (I'm not a viewership/TV expert, so please excuse me if I don't know what I'm talking about.) Edited January 19, 2015 by KingOfHearts 3 Link to comment
Dani-Ellie January 19, 2015 Share January 19, 2015 (edited) Fan appreciation or references are fine and dandy, but it's almost never a good idea to center an entire episode around a handful of people's wishes. I fear this is only going to continue in the future. This. Some people may hate it (there again is the not pleasing everyone thing) but I think Supernatural has done really, really well with the fan service thing. They created a reason for Sam and Dean to occasionally break the fourth wall (their lives were written by a prophet in a series of books that had a small but loyal cult following, *wink wink nudge nudge*) and every so often, they'll do a comedic fan service episode. It ends up being fun (at least in my opinion) but while that aspect of the show is now canon and exists, it's not a constant thing that changed the very fabric of Supernatural. 4x05 made fan service canon is one of the worst ways imaginable. They twisted the characters to fit this mold in a particularly egregious way because neither Regina nor Emma was herself. As far as I'm concerned, Regina destroyed Emma's childhood and to see Emma begging her to be her friend disgusted me. I'd always thought Regina had at least a tiny bit of begrudging respect for Emma, at least enough that she doesn't lump her in with "the idiots," but Regina in 4x05 had no respect for Emma whatsoever. It was entirely possible to build a friendship for Regina and Emma that didn't ... do that. SVU used to manage to throw the Alex/Olivia shippers little bones every so often without completely changing what made them Alex and Olivia. Why not just keep Regina and Emma how they were in 3B? I actually found the scenes when they were working together kind of sweet. But now that 4x05 happened, I've completely soured to the whole idea. I'm trying to keep an open mind but ... Edited January 19, 2015 by Dani-Ellie 8 Link to comment
Camera One January 19, 2015 Share January 19, 2015 (edited) A&E have done a lot of token fan service, especially from Season 3 onwards once the shipping became more extreme. But I think overall, they are still basically writing what they want, which is a vehicle for shiny new toys, twists and delicious villain moments along with sob stories. When fan service is not token (by token, I mean a short mention of Graham, or a short Beauty & the Beast dance, etc. stuff that is ultimately insignificant but he can trumpet on Twitter), the fan service often match their own preference. For example, "Breaking Glass" was for the Emma/Regina fans, but it also fit with A&E wanting to show Regina's redemption journey reluctantly accepting friendship from someone and learning that other people care about her. The 2 Hook centrics in Season 3 and giving him and the love story significant screentime over Emma/parents was another case where A&E's MO matched one large subset of shippers. And of course, the large 3B focus on Regina seemed based on their fondness for writing for the character, which also happens to satisfy the group of fans who prefer her. Edited January 19, 2015 by Camera One 3 Link to comment
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