S10.E03: Soul Survivor

[DittyDotDot]

I watch the show for the show and don't get much concerned about who's writing episodes, directing, etc.   But I am curious -- what is meant by the "nepotism duo?"

 

Bruckner/Leming Ross are the writing team here and Eugene Leming Ross is married to executive producer Bob Singer. They wrote Route 666 back in S1 and didn't write another episode until after Kripke's departure. It's thought the only reason they have managed to stay on the show is because of the marriage. But, since I don't know if that's really true, I just call them the Horrible Duo since they have written some of the most awful episodes, IMO.

[millennium]

Bruckner/Leming Ross are the writing team here and Eugene Leming Ross is married to executive producer Bob Singer. They wrote Route 666 back in S1 and didn't write another episode until after Kripke's departure. It's thought the only reason they have managed to stay on the show is because of the marriage. But, since I don't know if that's really true, I just call them the Horrible Duo since they have written some of the most awful episodes, IMO.

 

Thanks for the intel.

 

Part of the reason I quit Sons of Anarchy last season (apart from the repulsive Season 5 finale) is that I could no longer stomach showrunner Kurt Sutter's fanatic devotion to the advancement of his wife's (Katey Sagal) career.   I hate it when a show suffers because the person in control is pursuing a not-so-hidden agenda. 

 

Supenatural has been uniformly bad for quite a long time now, so if it's worse than usual some weeks, I probably don't notice (although the bestiality episode and the spin-off episode were extremely difficult to watch).

[supposebly]

I've just rewatched and I think they squandered a lot of fun material in getting Dean back so fast. It occurred to me that it would have been fun to have Dean take over the bunker for a while, while Sam would have to get out.

 

Although it's never not fun when Dean gets splashed with holy water.

[catrox14]

I might need demon!Dean anonymous.

I've been rewatching the first 3 episodes of this season. I just can't get over how frakking great Jensen was with making demon!Dean so compelling, same but different than regular! And MoC!Dean and IMO truly frightening in just 3 episodes but especially in Soul Survivor which is a huge testament to Jensen because he had to play demon Dean being cured before he played him in two episodes of being not cured. Which makes my head spin.

The way Jensen changed Dean's face and persownality with just a subtle flicker in his eyes is just mind-boggling. He is so damn talented and I will be forever bitter that he hasn't been nominated for an Emmy or GG or SAG or anything. Yes yes PCA blah.

Jared was better here upon rewatch than I thought the first couple of viewings. His subtle work at the beginning when he's dedemoning Dean was a great mix of fear of Dean, trying not to show his fear to Dean, and growing horror that he might have to kill Dean. And then fighting to not take the bait Dean was throwing out to fuck with his head.

I thought all the actors were really good here. Edina was especially effective. I liked the first Crowley minion who wanted to be his new wingman and felt bad that Crowley killed him.


I think Jensen did a good job directing an overly bloated episode. It felt like this should have been a mid season finale with how they contrived Crowley and Cas into the solution. But it came too fast. (twss) I loved the direction of the cat and mouse between Sam and Dean.


I do wish they hadn't closed the episode with the teaser of the woman in the chair. It was a cool shot but the episode should have ended on Dean's face. I suspect that was a writing choice because I can't imagine Jensen not understanding the importance of ending this kind of Dean centric episode on Dean's face.

For the Nepotism Duo, the dialogue in the Dean/Sam and even some of the Crowley with his minions scenes was IMO better than I expected.

I've watched it online using headphones and I hear so much more with the sound mixing and the music cues and score. I didn't realize until rewatching with the headphones that they used the Dean family theme when Sam and Dean are on the opposite sides of the door before Dean starts to break it down.I didn't realize that when Dean was explaining how he got out of the dungeon and the Devils trap he said "well I walked right across it. That smarted...but still." That really made me laugh.

And of course because I'm still in denial that demon!Dean is gone I am hoping he is still lurking because of a loophole. That maybe the nervous priest somehow mess up the blood blessing and Sam didn't notice. Or Sam not using his own blood made a difference.

Edited March 22, 2015 by catrox14

[SueB]

You're making me want to watch again.

[catrox14]

Honestly, even Black is better upon rewatch.

[Mick Lady]

I'm killing Mick tonight.

 

We were re-watching this episode tonight, and when Sam was injecting Dean with the blessed blood I said, "I hope there's a commercial soon, I've gotta pee"

 

He said "You've got The Black Eyed Pees"

 

Now I need to talk to Dot about trunk space...

Edited June 11, 2015 by Mick Lady

[catrox14]

LOL at Mick. That is such a great pun. Sounds like he spent some time at the punnery.  Well played, Mick.  Well played.

[DittyDotDot]

Now I need to talk to Dot about trunk space...

 

Nah, you just need an Impala! ;)

[catrox14]

Rewatching this tonight....for the far too manyth time ..

 

Why??? gods, whhhy???? did you take away demon!Dean so soon.  Just some funny/cool things I noticed upon rewatch

 

--When Dean is skulking around the Lair we can hear him breathing. Holy crap! That was freaky as shit and a wonderful touch.

--I was trying to read the notes in Dean's room when Sam finds the pictures and there is one sentence about "Drive 75 miles...." but I couldn't read the rest of it. (someday I am totally going to read all that )

--The stopper for the container Crowley uses to contain Edina's grace...is ...a skull....LOLOL I never noticed that and that made me laugh my ass off. It was like a creepy PEZ dispenser.  So great.

-- Dean picking up the hammer instead of the knife was such an interesting choice. It's brutal and awful and IMO mirrors dreamon!Dean from s3 telling regular!Dean that he's "Daddy's Blunt Little Instrument"....ugh my heart :(

--Jensen is so fucking good here.  I put this performance right along side his work in "On the Head of a Pin" and "The End" . Yes I am horribly biased by I think my bias is well founded.  There are 3 specific moments that just blow my mind. 1) After Sam gives him the first injection and he starts having pain....the way he delivered the "Lean Mean Dean" with the snark and bravado which is mixed with demon!Dean's first realization that he's in trouble...is just so perfect...and perfeclty Dean. 2) When he's beating down the door with the hammer and is just completely ruthless and happy to kill Sam....and last by not least 3) The shift as demon!Dean recedes and he becomes post-demon!Dean is AMAAAAAZZZING. You can see the second regular!Dean is there or in my head!canon it was demon!Dean pretending to be regular!Dean.  But Jensen's face just became Dean again and it was just.. remarkable.

--Finally, Sam's hair was really great in this episode. Why didn't they keep that way all season!? 

[Altered Reality]

So I tried to watch this last night.  Tried.  Why is it that I can go *hours* without hearing from anyone in the house, but the minute I get involved with something I'm needed *right now*?  All this to say I missed a few bits. 

 

Comments on what I did see (in no particular order).  Like catrox14, I'm sorry we didn't get more Demon!Dean. There is so much that could have been done with that (let's face it, there's so much that JA could have done with that) it's a shame the opportunity was wasted.

 

It might have been because of something I missed, but I didn't understand why the priest blessing the blood was so nervous?

 

Does Cass still owe Crowley for the stolen grace or does helping cure Dean (and thus get rid of the "obnoxious little prat") mean they're square? I think so, but I doubt Crowley does.

 

I still hate Hanna's outfit.  OTOH Sam's hair isn't bugging me.  I think I like Season 7 hair the best, though it was pretty good in 5 and 6 (the Bouffant of Angst (TM Awesom04000) aside).

 

Interesting introduction to Rowena. 

 

Some day I'll see this episode in it's entirety and might actually be able to make an intelligent comment on it.  Might.

I'm killing Mick tonight.

 

We were re-watching this episode tonight, and when Sam was injecting Dean with the blessed blood I said, "I hope there's a commercial soon, I've gotta pee"

 

He said "You've got The Black Eyed Pees"

 

Now I need to talk to Dot about trunk space...

 

 

But, but bad puns are a high art form aren't they?  Oh wait, maybe that's just in my family. Especially Dad.

[SueB]

Dad puns are best. 

[Altered Reality]

I dunno SueB he's pulled out some real stinkers.  Heck, I even used (unconsciously?) one of the typical ones in my post, the bit about puns being an *art* form?  Guess what name my Dad goes by :D

[SueB]

Art?

[Altered Reality]

Wasn't really that hard to guess, eh?  And oh man, does he love it when he can work in a pun around art/Art.  He even found an art punny (that is so a word spell check) t-shirt some years ago.  And he *wore* it.  He never wears t-shirts.

[SueB]

My re-re-watch tonight (to finish up the Demon!Dean arc...*sob*), things that stood out:

- That scary growl/lion roar sound effect when Demon!Dean was shouting.  That really worked for me.  It could have been cheesy but IMO it wasn't, and a nice way to separate out the way Dean was a demon versus the regular rank-n-file.

- Sam looked fiiiiiiiiine in that doctor's coat.  Here the thinness (which was less than the previous two episodes due to being shot out of order), worked for him IMO.

- The conversations between Sam and Dean were well played. I was particularly impressed with Jared's acting.  This was a brutal conversation for him. He did well the first round ignoring Demon!Dean but the second one, where he found out Demon!Dean killed Lester? --- well that one slipped in past the lines of defense.  And the third round was like watching a boxing match where one guy is just pummeling the other.  But it actually accomplished what Demon!Dean wanted. It got Sam to rush from the room because he couldn't stand to be there -- which is what Demon!Dean needed in order to effect his escape. 

- I VERY much liked the cat-n-mouse chase. It occurred to me that if the demon knife couldn't have killed Cain, then Demon!Dean was safe too.  Which means he really was just testing Sam to see if he could break him emotionally.  Nice Demon!Dean.  You're officially an ass (a sexy ass, but an ass).

- I did NOT like the final steps of the de-demoning spell.  They needed the bloody fisted sandwich.  It left me feeling like it was sloppy.

- I did like Dean admitting to Cas that he was ready to kill Sam.  I think THIS was Dean's nadir as a demon.  He essentially ran from Sam in the first place and avoided the confrontation.  Maybe Crowley was worried Sam would "reach" Demon!Dean. Maybe Demon!Dean saw Sam as a threat. But he didn't face actually killing Sam until this episode and, according to Dean, he WAS going to kill Sam.  That HAS to have left a permanent mental scar (amongst the thousand that already exist).

 

In perspective of the full season 10 (warning RANT):

 

it turns out you were right catrox... at least to some extent. Demon!Dean was not fully gone.  The ritual untwisted Dean's soul and he was back to human but the ability to retwist BACK into a Demon was still there.  Until my Meet & Greet with Jensen at MinnCon, I didn't really get this.  So that's a writing failure IMO.  Let me explain more clearly:

- In Soul Survivor Dean's soul is untwisted and he returns to human form. He loses his demonic abilities and weaknesses (like Holy Water)

- As the season progressed, according to Jensen at the M&G, Dean started sliding down the slope toward being a demon again. And THIS is why Dean was much more chatty than he had been in previous seasons. His inhibitions were getting more and more removed.  THIS is how Jensen played Dean.  Intentionally more cavalier and "not giving a shit".

- Which means Human Dean was hanging on by a thread when we get to the last events in The Prisoner and Brother's Keeper.  And Dean had the ability to slip back into being a demon without actually dying. 

- So here's the question I have: If this is how Jensen was playing him (and I have no reason to doubt the man), then when did Carver and Singer decide that Dean being at risk to becoming a demon was the season endgame?  From what I understand talking to the writers, the second half of the season is pretty much mapped out from a major arc perspective by November.  Although we also have Carver claiming that he didn't know Dean was going to become a demon until he wrote the finale of S9.  So there's conflicting data there. 

- But now I have to look at the season and say to myself: what if the ending of the "Demon Dean" arc was left intentionally vague in Soul Survivor because Carver knew he was truncating that arc to early and he wanted to keep Dean regressing to demon as a threat? I could certainly see him telling that to the Director (Ackles).  Which (and this is pure speculation on my part), may have in fact influenced some of Jensens' more cavalier moments in the first half of the season.  Jensen said in interviews that Carver let him pick HOW he was going to portray Demon!Dean.  Obviously the script dialog  was there, but Jensen brought the look and the attitude to life.   

- Then comes the November meeting where they layout the big plan (Dean slips towards being a demon again and Sam starts taking reckless actions behind his back to save his brother).  That's really a broad direction which allows for plenty of variability as the stories come up. And then they make the decisions about the final arc (21,22,23) sometime in February when they know they are picked up.  This fits in my head because we saw Sam make these bold moves as the season progressed, as if Dean was slipping away from him.

- How many of us felt Sam was overreacting?  I know I did.

- Now put the last three episodes into place: kill Charlie, murder spree, Dean nearly kills Sam (again).  If they wanted us to believe that Dean was on the verge of becoming a demon again without actually dying... then maybe they thought these events would sell the plot: Dean's soul was twisting back into being a demon and Dean had to take drastic action to stop it.  So did Sam.

- But they f*cked up.  BIG TIME IMO.  First, they DID have Dean talking about not becoming a demon again but they never drew the line for us .... that Dean could become a demon WITHOUT DYING.  This is the way Jensen was playing it. And after the fact, i can totally see this.  But NEVER, in so many words, did they make it clear that Dean could become a demon without the dying bit.  We all assumed that the sloppiness of the "cure" in Soul Survivor was just writer sloppiness.  Only YOU catrox, kept saying that Dean still had a bit of demon in him.  You weren't 100% correct IMO.  The correct way would have been to say that once Dean's soul had been twisted into being a demon, it could easily twist back again while he was wearing the Mark.  Failure to make this clear is a writing failure IMO.  It would have made Sam's actions less outlandish.  It would have made Dean's actions more suspect.  But they didn't go there. 

- And even Jensen, who understood that Dean was slipping back into being a demon bit by bit, thought killing Charlie was stupid.  And it was. Even if everyone knew that Dean was slipping, killing Charlie was so wrong on a meta-level that no one gave a shit if it was supposed to be the motivator.

- What I'm trying to say is: Carver and Singer justified killing her in their mind because they wanted us to believe that Dean was back to the point on the slipping-into-demon scale where he could rationalize killing Sam.  The young Styne was supposed to be a foreshadowing (and we got that but it didn't play).  But NO ONE BOUGHT IT.  Maybe for a brief few seconds when Sam was kneeling did we think Dean might actually take his head but we knew ultimately it would be "okay".  We had S11 on the way.  It's almost impossible for "Dean kills Sam" to be a credible threat under any circumstances.  We have 9+ years of "no way" under our belt. We are conditioned to not think that way.

- And then? Then when he was thrown under the bus about Charlie's death, Carver was silent on his failed attempt to convey Dean's story. Because it wasn't just a failure to decide Charlie had to die. He failed to make it clear what was at stake with Dean.  Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

- Bottom line: Carver screwed up with Dean's arc in S10 because the audience was never let in on the concept that Dean was slipping back towards being a demon the whole f*ing year.  Catrox had the closest theory.  But even then, none of us bought Charlies death as a trigger for Dean to potentially become a full-on demon again.  We knew he was becoming a murder-rage person but not a demon.  And the fact that I had to ask Jensen Ackles a question in a Meet & Greet to come to this understanding???? EPIC FAIL. 

 

And it all didn't become clear to me until after I watched Soul Survivor again and realized that the messy "closure" was a tip-off that I personally chalked up to messy writing.

Edited March 7, 2016 by SueB

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I actually watched this a couple weeks ago.  I couldn't comment right away because it was so intense.  Really intense.  And really, didn't think I could say much more than what's already been said.  In fact, @SueB's post above is darn near perfect, IMO.  (Except for the full Season 10 Rant, but only because I have not watched the Full Season 10. so I can neither confirm nor deny what she says.  :D )  

So I'll just say re: the episode: what she said.  

But a couple nit picks:

• Why was the priest (an English - heavily protestant country, fyi - Catholic priest somewhere in the Mid-west, really?  I guess it could happen.  Not bloody likely though.) saying the blessing in Latin?  Um, since Vatican II, prayers, blessings, etc, are usually said in the local dialect.  I know: the Latin sounds better.  He was so young (and looked really nervous) I doubt he would have even known the Latin version.
• Also, FYI - this is probably what SHOULD have happened to Sam when he killed the power while not wearing any PPE (Personal Protective Equipment) (Not graphic, they use a dummy.)

And that's only on a 100A service.  The bunker probably has more than that.  

//Safety Warning.  :)

 

[Dobian]

Eh, that was just a little bit *too* easy.  I thought Dean was going to be a demon for at least half the season.  So one minute he's coming through the smashed door like Jack Nicholson, and the next he's just fine and chilling on his bed after a couple more shots of the red stuff?  I never liked this particular lore, that you can "cure" a demon.  A person isn't a demon because they're cursed or infected, like a werewolf is (and you can't even cure those).  A person is a demon because their soul is twisted evil.  It's who they are.  They don't suddenly become not evil because of blood transfusions, it makes no sense.  I had the same problem with Dean coming back from Hell many seasons ago after having tortured people for thirty years, but aside from some nightmares he's just good ol' Dean.  Being evil isn't just some switch that you turn on and off.

[DittyDotDot]

16 minutes ago, Dobian said:

I never liked this particular lore, that you can "cure" a demon.  A person isn't a demon because they're cursed or infected, like a werewolf is (and you can't even cure those).  A person is a demon because their soul is twisted evil.  It's who they are.  They don't suddenly become not evil because of blood transfusions, it makes no sense.

Yeah, I've been screaming about this ever since they introduced it back in S8. Just plain nonsensical!!

[rue721]

*whispers* shockingly, I actually kinda liked this episode this time around.

I think the reason that the episode works better for me now is because I have somehow become pretty much OK with its character beats. (The plot is still aggressively nonsensical, but what can ya do). Back when the episode first aired, I hated Dean's taunts to Sam, because I thought it was ridiculous for him to be bringing up ancient history like Mary's death or John's supposed brainwashing. But this time, I thought it was interesting that that stuff would even be on demon!Dean's mind.

I mean, even as a demon, things like your mother's death would still bother you?! That's interesting information. If demon!Dean was still carrying resentment toward John for pushing him into hunting, and was still stoking up resentment toward Sam for Mary's death, then it seems like he had access to pretty human emotions (the negative ones anyway). So how would he have actually felt if he'd killed Sam? Would he have felt grief or self-loathing or any of that?

I'm just so curious about how demons work, and how they're made and unmade. In this episode, Sam told Castiel that "curing" Dean wasn't like curing Crowley, and I'm still curious about why. Well, I'm curious about the nature of Crowley's "humanity" in general, because he definitely has some and has had since Sam's attempt at curing him -- but I digress.

Anyway, my favorite scenes were when Dean was chasing Sam around the bunker. Sam's trick of turning out the lights and then locking Dean in the utility room when he went to turn them back on was actually pretty brilliant. Tbh, I thought all their cat and mouse stuff was fun.

Also, I've been thinking about this a little, and my theory for why Dean didn't go ahead and actually say, "here's Johnny!" when he chopped through the utility room door was that the show was actually trying to play it pretty straight in terms of doing a real homage to The Shining. I think that's what all the red lighting/wash was about, too. That said, I don't really think the homage worked...I actually liked the look and the vibe of the bunker in this ep, but it was too low rent and not haunted-feeling enough to really feel much like The Shining, imo.

...And now I want the guys to crash in a REALLY low rent looking, nasty squat during a case, and do an homage to The Shining in THAT kind of setting.

Anyway, to go back to the bunker for a second...something that tends to confuse/bother me about it is that I don't understand its physical layout very well. I can't seem to grok how the kitchen connects with the library, and do they just hang out in the library like its their living room? Not that I'm waiting with baited breath to see the blueprints, I just think that's one more reason why I can't warm up to the bunker in general. I have the same problem with Hell, actually. It's just so hard to envision.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

16 hours ago, rue721 said:

something that tends to confuse/bother me about it is that I don't understand its physical layout very well. I can't seem to grok how the kitchen connects with the library, and do they just hang out in the library like its their living room? Not that I'm waiting with baited breath to see the blueprints, I just think that's one more reason why I can't warm up to the bunker in general. I have the same problem with Hell, actually. It's just so hard to envision.

I actually watched a bts thing on the bunker layout.  And I might have seen a 'floor plan' somewhere - but that was for the set.   So in "real life" it wouldn't make much sense.  Not like they film it anyway, with endless hallways, etc.  

What confuses me even more than the library/kitchen relationship is where the hell is the alleged basement when the whole damn thing is underground?  :)  

And what exactly is that telescope pointed at in the library alcove?  Are they ever going to use it?  Is it even relevant?

[bettername2come]

Damn, that first shot of Dean in the chair is pretty. "For what it's worth, I got your blood type." I screamed when Dean growled and snapped at Sammy. How did the wife have time to marry the tattoo guy? "Always having to yank your lame ass out of the fire since forever." It's the literality of it that hurts. I love the pictures Sam looks at, but the one of John and Mary looks way too modern in a way that makes it obvious it's Jeffrey and Samantha, more so than the ones of Jared and Jensen smiling. Besides, everyone knows young John had no beard. Stop pulling hammers on Sam, show! The red lighting in the bunker looked cool. Cas holding Dean with his glowing angel eyes and Dean's black demon eyes is like a scene from a fanfic. How often does Sam explicitly say he's gonna get drunk? "There's a female outside in the car." Oh, look it's men on the ceiling for once. And my favorite redhead!

Yeah, I agree the demon cure should be more than blood transfusions, which I thought it originally was written to be. I mean, trials are supposed to be difficult. And if Sam's completed the trials now, could he not close the gates of hell while he's at it? Did the first two trials expire after a year or something?

[DittyDotDot]

7 hours ago, bettername2come said:

Yeah, I agree the demon cure should be more than blood transfusions, which I thought it originally was written to be. I mean, trials are supposed to be difficult. And if Sam's completed the trials now, could he not close the gates of hell while he's at it? Did the first two trials expire after a year or something?

While I'm quite certain the show didn't really consider this, there was an Enocian incantation one had to speak at the end of each trial for the trial to be complete. Sam's arm only started glowing after the task was completed and he spoke the spell. In theory, Sam could cure 1000 demons and never finish the trials if he never says the incantation.

7 hours ago, bettername2come said:

Cas holding Dean with his glowing angel eyes and Dean's black demon eyes is like a scene from a fanfic. 

I know, and the outtake of Jensen yelling, "Get it out" doesn't help me see differently.

[Katy M]

On ‎8‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 11:49 PM, bettername2come said:

Yeah, I agree the demon cure should be more than blood transfusions, which I thought it originally was written to be. I mean, trials are supposed to be difficult. And if Sam's completed the trials now, could he not close the gates of hell while he's at it? Did the first two trials expire after a year or something?

WEll, apparently it was difficult because we learned in Clip Show that the first few times they ended up killing the host at any rate, and it took years for the priest to perfect the formula.

[Hanahope]

I was  surprised the demonDean story got resolved quickly.  I have to wonder how much the scripts had to get changed due to Jared's injury.  but given how long Soulless Sam went on, I thought DemonDean would get a bit longer (though obviously there's still some more to go with the Mark of Cain).  I did think Jensen's acting was very good when be became human again.

And lol at Crowley missing his bff Dean.  I wonder what his plan is this time, with helping Cas get some temp grace again.  Did he really want to help Dean? make sure Dean couldn't undermind him again? Does Crowley still have a sliver of humanity in him that makes him care for Dean?  

Angels other than Cas, zzzzzz

Surprised by the Sam/Lester story, that Sam went that far.  Why not ask Jody Mills to call the cross-roads demon?  He knows she would do what she could to help Dean and she wouldn't make a deal with a demon.  Why involve some civilian that could go rogue?

[catrox14]

32 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

Surprised by the Sam/Lester story, that Sam went that far.  Why not ask Jody Mills to call the cross-roads demon?  He knows she would do what she could to help Dean and she wouldn't make a deal with a demon.  Why involve some civilian that could go rogue?

My head canon is that Sam was  didn't want Jody to know what happened to Dean.

[DittyDotDot]

10 hours ago, Hanahope said:

And lol at Crowley missing his bff Dean.  I wonder what his plan is this time, with helping Cas get some temp grace again.  Did he really want to help Dean? make sure Dean couldn't undermind him again? Does Crowley still have a sliver of humanity in him that makes him care for Dean?

I think Crowley didn't want Dean to undermine him again and he couldn't kill Dean because of the Mark--although, I think it would take a lot more for Crowley to actually kill Dean at this point--so best get his angel to help make him human again.

As to your last question--NO SPOILERS!!! ;)

[Iju]

i thought this episode was too soon to stop demon dean. but then again i expected dean to be a demon the whole season, lol. so glad hawkeye is gone. annoying af character. goodbye and good riddance.

also we all know that dean has an insurmountable amount of guilt already but please don't pound it on more than it has to be with him and sam, writers. he has had enough already.

i wonder were those old pictures actually old or were they photoshopped.

[Katy M]

16 minutes ago, Iju said:

so glad hawkeye is gone

Hawkeye?  I'm honestly drawing a complete blank as who you could mean and it's going to drive me nuts. Can you please help me out?

[Iju]

12 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Hawkeye?  I'm honestly drawing a complete blank as who you could mean and it's going to drive me nuts. Can you please help me out?

cole, lol. i explained in ep 1 or 2.

Edited September 21, 2018 by Iju

[The Companion]

On 10/22/2014 at 5:09 PM, Pete Martell said:

 

I was relieved they didn't have Hannah kill herself for Cas. I have been expecting that story (and still am), and the idea of it angers me, because it would just be another dead lady for more manpain.

 

I really thought that was where they were going. I suppose it still could be, but I was relieved it wasn't the resolution here. I am already bored that her arc seems to be falling in love with Castiel. It is not particularly fresh or interesting.

On 10/22/2014 at 6:04 PM, Demented Daisy said:

 

I (and a couple of others) have said that this is disturbing tendency over the past couple of seasons -- come up with a story line, but don't have an endgame in mind.  Closing the gates of Hell, Sam being possessed by an angel, making Dean a demon.  All stories that (so far) did not have satisfactory endings because they ran with the idea before fully thinking it through, IMO.

 

 

I don't know that I will ever get over the purgatory storyline. I suppose the good news is that they didn't start the season with fully cured Dean and then only give us dribs and drabs via flashback.

On 10/22/2014 at 9:19 PM, 7kstar said:

I think the reason for the long knocking down the door with the hammer was homage to horror films.  They always have the bad guy doing something that would allow the other person to easily escape but they stand still waiting for the other shoe to drop.

 

I think this is correct and I loved it. I am, admittedly, a horror and sci fi fanatic and I love it when they have homages to classic horror.

On 10/23/2014 at 9:44 AM, DittyDotDot said:

 

The only thing I'll say about Jensen's acting as Demon Dean--thank heavens he's back to his usual 5-pack-a-day voice than the 25-pack voice he was trying out. I had a hard time stifling the giggles whenever he talked in these first few episodes. Go ahead, I borrowed Hannibal's plastic murder suit, so launch those tomatoes if you want. 😉

 

I cannot think of the batman voices in the Oz episode without giggling. 

On 10/23/2014 at 10:03 AM, Tippi Blevins said:

I attributed "Dog Dean Afternoon" to these writers in an earlier post I made. I have since realized what they actually wrote was "Man's Best Friend With Benefits." I got my weird bestiality episodes mixed up. Sorry about that.

How do you choose just one weird bestiality moment? 

On 10/24/2014 at 10:22 AM, catrox14 said:

 

Does anyone really care that Sam used the guy that wanted to kill his wife to summon a demon? I really really don't. Lester chose to make a deal. That's not really on Sam. I do think Sam probably made a mistake with the deal with Crowley but that remains to be seen. Nor does it make him make him stupid or a monster. Heck Sam might have his own plan up his sleeve. He might not be trusting that Dean is 100% Dean again. But it's Crowley so all bets are off. 

Does anyone really care that Dean killed the guy that hired a hitman to kill his wife because she dare to cheat on him? I sure don't.  Lester willingly took the deal. He could have backed out at any time. Sure Sam set the ball rolling with the summoning spell to lure out a demon to find Crowley but no one put a gun to Lester's head to make him do it. And worse yet, he wanted to WATCH his wife be murdered. That's all manner of fucked up. If Dean had killed the wife, that would be a problem.

 

I don't want to re-open old debates, but I think this is where I fall. Lester was a full grown man. Even intoxicated, I have never actually wanted to kill anyone and it's hard to say the alcohol was a factor when, as noted, he later showed up to watch.  Lester wasn't talked into killing his wife, he expressly said all he could think about was revenge. Sam didn't even bring up killing her and didn't know that killing her was the plan. 

SAM:

Sounds like things have been a little rough on you lately, huh?

LESTER:

Rough? My wife kicked me to the curb.

SAM:

Oh.

LESTER:

We haven’t had sex for four months. Four. Well, not that—not that she hasn’t been having plenty… with a guy in her bowling league. Guy with tattoos. Did him right there on the kitchen table while I was at work.

SAM:

Man, that’s uh … That’s cold.

LESTER:

Now all I think of is revenge. Payback. But that’s not gonna happen.

SAM:

I wouldn’t be so sure about that. It is possible that you can have your revenge. I mean, hell, it’s possible you can have pretty much anything you want.

. . . 

CROSSROADS DEMON:

Who summons me, and for what purpose?

[Sam stands up as Lester walks towards the demon.]

LESTER:

Kill my wife …

SAM:

Lester!

LESTER:

And my soul is yours.

SAM:

Don’t!

CROSSROADS DEMON:

Done.

SAM: No!

Now there is some merit to him not stopping the deal from actually going down but that assumes he knows who the wife is or is able to track her down. This is on Lester. Sam gave him access to the weapon, but that is about it.

 

On 10/25/2014 at 1:06 PM, Pixel said:

Nobody has mentioned this, but Crowley specifically said that because the contract wasn't fulfilled, he didn't get Lester's soul. Perhaps he was testing to see if. Dean was completely evil or not. Essentially, Dean not only screwed Crowley, he also didn't kill an innocent (the wife), and even though DemonDean razzed Sam about what Sam did making that deal and costing Lester his soul, DemonDean actually absolved Sam because he did not let the guy's soul go to Crowley. And if anyone could be reasonably deserving of death, it's a guy who ordered a hit on his wife.

I thought that was a nod to show that even as a demon, deep down he was still Dean.

This. Crowley expressly didn't get his soul because of the deal (though I wouldn't be surprised if the dude's soul ended up there on its own). 

DemonDean knew that, and appears to have been screwing with Sam/trying to make him feel as guilty as possible.  

DEAN:

Oh, and so you know, I killed Lester myself. And that wife of his married the tattooed guy.

[Sam slams his hand down on the table.]

SAM:

I never meant—

DEAN:

Who cares what you meant?! That line that we thought was so clear between us and the things that we hunted, ain’t so clear is it? Wow. You might actually be worse than me! I mean, you took a guy at his lowest, used him, and it cost him his life and his soul. Nice work.

 

On 10/25/2014 at 5:09 PM, DittyDotDot said:

I think the flashbacks to Sam helping Lester make the deal happened weeks before we meet up with Sam in Black. And Black ended with Sam captured by Cole and the next one started with Sam's interrogation. I'm thinking it was only a day or so later when Sam finally found Dean and Dean killed Lester in the meantime. So Dean would have killed Lester maybe a day before Sam caught Dean. And, at that point the Lester's divorce wasn't yet final, meaning that the wife finalized the divorce and remarried in like a day.

 

My head hurts.

No need to finalize. He is dead and she can remarry at will. Apparently she had been with tattoo guy for 4 months, so good for her. Any dude who wouldn't hire a hit man is a step up. 😆

 

On 2/9/2015 at 9:03 PM, supposebly said:

I've just rewatched and I think they squandered a lot of fun material in getting Dean back so fast. It occurred to me that it would have been fun to have Dean take over the bunker for a while, while Sam would have to get out.

 

Although it's never not fun when Dean gets splashed with holy water.

I agree. I think they could have done so much more with DemonDean. Then again, they seemed to think that DemonDean should go dark by treating women like crap, so I guess the silver lining is that we didn't have to see more of that. It would have been interesting, though, to see Sam ousted from the bunker. DemonDean was powerful and could have been really interesting (it not also heartbreaking) to watch.

Also, I don't think the holy water splash will ever get old for me either.

I found the Crowley stuff interesting because I had assumed that a large part of his motivation was to get himself a particularly powerful ally/pet. I think that he didn't expect Dean to come to the realization that Crowley didn't hold the cards here quite as quickly as he did. DemonDean can kill the Knights of Hell, and it has been fairly established that he can take down Crowley. When he wasn't going to fall into line, Crowley's only option was to de-escalate him. Giving Crowley the sword may bite them in the ass down the road in some way, but I think Crowley's interests do align here. It is also why he had to help Castiel. 

What was interesting to me was that Crowley really did seem to crave the comraderie/bromance aspects of his relationship with DemonDean. He isn't just paying lip service, he really did want DemonDean at his side in hell for more than just keeping people in line.

I would have liked a scene with Sam and Dean at the end, and I would have liked it if Sam remembered the pie. But, overall, this was a fairly satisfying episode for me despite its faults.

Also, if I haven't already, I officially retract any characterization of the bone sword and MoC as unimportant/arbitrary/something that would get dropped. It has had a lot of long lasting effects and I actually really like the direction the story went with it (reserving the right to be pissed down the road with however they handle the MoC bit). 

[Katy M]

32 minutes ago, The Companion said:

I don't want to re-open old debates, but I think this is where I fall. Lester was a full grown man. Even intoxicated, I have never actually wanted to kill anyone and it's hard to say the alcohol was a factor when, as noted, he later showed up to watch.  Lester wasn't talked into killing his wife, he expressly said all he could think about was revenge. Sam didn't even bring up killing her and didn't know that killing her was the plan. 

lester was a scum bag who wanted his wife dead because she cheated on him, after he cheated on her.  All Sam did was accidentally give him the gun.  He clearly meant to interfere before the deal was made, but of course, that doesn't make that much of a difference. If you kill someone in a bank robbery and didn't intend to they are still just as dead by your actions.  But, anyway, nobody forced Lester to do anything.  He could have made a deal for a "better" wife for that matter.  The fact that he went straight to murder tells me he's nobody to get overly upset about getting killed.

[FlickChick]

@The Companion, I didn't know if you noticed, but this episode was directed by Jensen. When he directs, they film the episode before any others, so he played the part you saw in this before the other two demon!Dean episodes. I thought he did a great job with the direction while being on-screen a lot as well.

[The Companion]

27 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

@The Companion, I didn't know if you noticed, but this episode was directed by Jensen. When he directs, they film the episode before any others, so he played the part you saw in this before the other two demon!Dean episodes. I thought he did a great job with the direction while being on-screen a lot as well.

I saw that and meant to mention it. I thought he did a great job directing, particularly with the bunker chase scene. I can't imagine trying to split those duties with such a Dean heavy episode AND having to fold in an alternate version of Dean.

[Lemuria]

 I have to disagree about Sam’s culpability in regard to the Lester situation – – but not in regard to Lester, who would probably have ended up damning himself to Hell anyway.  For me, what really made me angry with Sam, in telling Lester about the crossroads demon and in helping him to get to the point where he could reach that demon – – even if Sam thought he could prevent that, though he really didn’t seem to have prepared for that eventuality—was that Sam was actually setting up Lester’s wife. 

And that he didn’t seem to care. 

 After it went South in regard to Lester ending up actually making a deal, Sam just walked away from it. He knew that  Lester had just arranged to have a demon send after Lester’s wife, who turned out to be an essentially innocent person, and he did nothing about it. This was on Sam, who should have made sure that there was no way that Lester could’ve gone through with that deal. Having failed to prevent the deal, it should now have been his responsibility to protect Lester’s wife. 

 But he didn’t seem to care about what happened or refused to accept any responsibility for what happened, or both.   This did not paint a very good picture of Sam, IMO. 

[DeeDee79]

35 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

 I have to disagree about Sam’s culpability in regard to the Lester situation – – but not in regard to Lester, who would probably have ended up damning himself to Hell anyway.  For me, what really made me angry with Sam, in telling Lester about the crossroads demon and in helping him to get to the point where he could reach that demon – – even if Sam thought he could prevent that, though he really didn’t seem to have prepared for that eventuality—was that Sam was actually setting up Lester’s wife. 

And that he didn’t seem to care. 

 After it went South in regard to Lester ending up actually making a deal, Sam just walked away from it. He knew that  Lester had just arranged to have a demon send after Lester’s wife, who turned out to be an essentially innocent person, and he did nothing about it. This was on Sam, who should have made sure that there was no way that Lester could’ve gone through with that deal. Having failed to prevent the deal, it should now have been his responsibility to protect Lester’s wife. 

 But he didn’t seem to care about what happened or refused to accept any responsibility for what happened, or both.   This did not paint a very good picture of Sam, IMO. 

This is a good point that never occurred to me. Lester was so adamant about getting revenge on his wife that is was a long shot for Sam to assume that he could have stepped in before he made the deal.  Hopefully Sam killed the demon so that the deal was nullified afterwards.

[Lemuria]

 I believe that it was nullified when Dean – – Deanmon, that is – –  killed Lester. Essentially, Deanmon breached the terms of the contact, rendering it void. Hell isn't going to bother with Lester’s wife if it isn’t going to get anything out of it. 

And no way am I going to believe that Sam did anything offscreen. In Doylelist terms, the writers probably didn’t even think about the issue, which ends up meaning that in Watsonian terms, Sam didn’t. 

Besides, I’m just tired of being expected to write the writers out of their mistakes. It’s their job to write a coherent script and AFAIAC what they fail to put up there on the screen—either visually or in dialogue—simply isn’t in the episode. 

Edited January 15, 2020 by Lemuria

[The Companion]

12 hours ago, Lemuria said:

 I have to disagree about Sam’s culpability in regard to the Lester situation – – but not in regard to Lester, who would probably have ended up damning himself to Hell anyway.  For me, what really made me angry with Sam, in telling Lester about the crossroads demon and in helping him to get to the point where he could reach that demon – – even if Sam thought he could prevent that, though he really didn’t seem to have prepared for that eventuality—was that Sam was actually setting up Lester’s wife. 

And that he didn’t seem to care. 

 After it went South in regard to Lester ending up actually making a deal, Sam just walked away from it. He knew that  Lester had just arranged to have a demon send after Lester’s wife, who turned out to be an essentially innocent person, and he did nothing about it. This was on Sam, who should have made sure that there was no way that Lester could’ve gone through with that deal. Having failed to prevent the deal, it should now have been his responsibility to protect Lester’s wife. 

 But he didn’t seem to care about what happened or refused to accept any responsibility for what happened, or both.   This did not paint a very good picture of Sam, IMO. 

 

11 hours ago, Lemuria said:

 I believe that it was nullified when Dean – – Deanmon, that is – –  killed Lester. Essentially, Deanmon breached the terms of the contact, rendering it void. Hell isn't going to bother with Lester’s wife if it isn’t going to get anything out of it. 

And no way am I going to believe that Sam did anything offscreen. In Doylelist terms, the writers probably didn’t even think about the issue, which ends up meaning that in Watsonian terms, Sam didn’t. 

Besides, I’m just tired of being expected to write the writers out of their mistakes. It’s their job to write a coherent script and AFAIAC what they fail to put up there on the screen—either visually or in dialogue—simply isn’t in the episode. 

I do think this is the most valid criticism of the action as noted above. Now, Lester was clearly a nasty character, so she may have backed into a better position with him gone, but Sam doesn't get off the hook for that because he had nothing to do with the outcome. 

I don't know what Sam could have done without knowing the wife's identity except to try to work that into his demon torturing. I don't think we have enough to believe he knew what Lester planned in advance but I agree we have enough to see that he didn't do anything to stop the deal from going down and that is problematic.

I agree the writers didn't think that part through 

Spoiler

given that at least in the next episide and in this one, the accusation leveled relates to Lester and not his wife. It is put in terms of what Sam did to Lester, which I think really doesn't amount to much. He didn't "force" him into the deal, he didn't coerce him or take advantage of him.

For me, the wife is collateral damage and I do agree that Sam has some culpability there (even though his options were limited once the deal went down). However, even considering that, his actions are being painted by the show as some really reprehensible act while the brothers kill meat suits all the time (arguably more direct collateral damage of innocent people).

[Nick24]

I rewatched this episode today and something gutted me. Did anyone else notice that when Demon!Dean was saying

Quote

Demon!Dean: That your very existence sucked the life out of my life!

 there was so much pain in his voice? On my 1st watch I did not notice that, but this time it was pretty clear.

IMO Not too far from the truth.

Edited May 27, 2022 by Nick24