S10.E03: Soul Survivor

[echo]

This episode left me so disappointed. After the cure worked I said aloud, "That can't be it." Yet this is it? This is the end of Demon!Dean? I loved Demon!Dean! There was so much potential for this storyline. Three episodes and that's it?!

My hope is that the cure didn't actually work and Demon!Dean is playing with everyone because I just don't buy it. Turning him back shouldn't have been that easy.

But if he is really and truly cured of "demondom" *PLEASE* spend more time on the MoC arc, show, I beg you!

[Hana Chan]

catrox14 - The problem with that scenario is that if you let DemonDean go that far, how to you pull him back at the end? I agree that Jensen did a great job showing the gradual slide in Dean's behavior to some really dark shit and once you cross a certain point, there isn't a real way to bring Dean back. The one thing the show has tried to do (not always well, I'll grant) is to have the brothers go to those dark places, but not go so far as that they can't be redeemed (or make the choice to come back). DemonDean might have been in a position that he could overthrow Crowley, but then what? Sam having to spend the rest of the show battling his brother? Speaking for myself, I couldn't stomach that over the long haul. I can deal with the brothers fighting or at odds, but only with the knowledge that in the end, they'll end up back on the same side. That their bond remains intact (even if changed) in the end.

 

With DemonDean more than willing to kill Sam if he got in Dean's way (and not at all reluctantly), they were really skirting going to that event horizon. I still think that there is a lot that they can do with Dean's storyline (since he still has the MoC and Crowley has the First Blade in his possession) so this isn't over by a long shot. Just the darkest, most extreme expression of it. Dean made a decision to take on the mark to achieve a goal, but now they have to spend the season dealing with the consequences of that decision. This is still going to come back to bite both of them in the ass in a big way.

[Tippi Blevins]

I wish that either they let the demonic Dean storyline go on for a longer, uninterrupted chunk, or else showed him being worse during this little stint. Because I just didn't get the urgency in "curing" him. I mean, yes, it's Sam's brother and he doesn't want him to be a demon, but Dean's not really causing a lot of trouble unless you're a karaoke fan. If it had seemed like he was ramping up to be a serious villain, then okay. But I think they wanted to shelve the storyline for a while so they rushed through it in time to have one buffer episode and then the goofy, musical 200th episode. 

 

I guess considering who wrote it, I should just be glad nobody eye-humped a poodle to a porno soundtrack.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Tippi Blevins

[Bruinsfan]

Ok, how did Crowley find out how one goes about stealing and containing an angel's grace? Read it over Nepotism Duo's shoulders as they were scribbling this episode out in crayon? Up until this point Metatron and Castiel were the only two angels we've seen manage a trick like that, and the latter had the former's example to go by. (I'm also dubious about Crowley being able to manipulate that much divine power without getting himself fried even if he had an instruction manual - remember when an angel just revealing its true form disintegrated any demons in the vicinity?)

[Hana Chan]

Best answer to anyone who's considered how Sam felt in the aftermath (given that he was conveniently sent off camera so Dean and Castiel could have their little chat).

 

[catrox14]

catrox14 - The problem with that scenario is that if you let DemonDean go that far, how to you pull him back at the end? I agree that Jensen did a great job showing the gradual slide in Dean's behavior to some really dark shit and once you cross a certain point, there isn't a real way to bring Dean back. The one thing the show has tried to do (not always well, I'll grant) is to have the brothers go to those dark places, but not go so far as that they can't be redeemed (or make the choice to come back). DemonDean might have been in a position that he could overthrow Crowley, but then what? Sam having to spend the rest of the show battling his brother? Speaking for myself, I couldn't stomach that over the long haul. I can deal with the brothers fighting or at odds, but only with the knowledge that in the end, they'll end up back on the same side. That their bond remains intact (even if changed) in the end.

 

With DemonDean more than willing to kill Sam if he got in Dean's way (and not at all reluctantly), they were really skirting going to that event horizon. I still think that there is a lot that they can do with Dean's storyline (since he still has the MoC and Crowley has the First Blade in his possession) so this isn't over by a long shot. Just the darkest, most extreme expression of it. Dean made a decision to take on the mark to achieve a goal, but now they have to spend the season dealing with the consequences of that decision. This is still going to come back to bite both of them in the ass in a big way.

 

I thought they let Sam go to some pretty horrible places in his Soulless arc. I mean he allowed Dean to be turned into a vampire. But it was wiped clean because "soulless".  To me that is the worst thing either brother has ever done to the other short Dean trying to kill Sam here.

 

I think you could pull Dean back from doing anything but committing rape and murdering Sam. And you know I think you could even pull Dean back from killing Sam because well it's supernatural.  What I was really hoping for with demon!Dean once I saw Jensen's work is that we would have a quasi-villain or a new kind of 'villain'.  I would love to have seen Dean amass power for once and use it to destroy whoever he wants. Not because Dean is on a power trip but because he would use it to accomplish a mission.

 

Being a demon is not something he should be coming back from right away.  I just hope that somehow he's not really back completely and it's something more than 'I feel so bad for being a demon".  I want him to seek revenge on Crowley. To me that must be job 1 for Dean. For me Dean can't go back to just being regular old Dean now. He just can't. That's why I mourned his loss so much.

Edited October 22, 2014 by catrox14

[rue721]

I hope this borrowed grave thing doesn't become the norm, I'd hate a story that has Cash being a Grace Vampire of sorts.

Why even have his grace sputtering out in the first place if he's just going to suck down some more from an anonymous angel? I would have been more interested if it had at least been Hannah's grace. And also I would have been more interested if Cas had actually had to make the decision himself, rather than Crawley playing nurse and basically pouring the grace down his throat. I mean, Cas has previously shoved an angel against a wall and stabbed him to death while sucking down his grace, it's not like they haven't already gone pretty dark with this. At least have Cas making his own choices. Otherwise there's no storyline.

Speaking of no storyline, why did Crowley go to Cas and help him on his road to the Winchesters, asking nothing for return, and then leave? Why didn't he just go to the bunker himself or send some demons there or some other more direct thing, OR just leave the whole issue alone? I don't even understand what his goal was -- for Dean not to be a demon? I really don't understand the whole "out of control" thing because isn't putting "out of control" dead people on lockdown what Hell is even for? I mean, isn't dealing with people like Demon!Dean exactly what Crowley's "King of Hell" gig exactly about? Bizarre.

 

Also, when Dean was shoving Crowley and stuff last episode, I figured Crowley must have been just sort of letting him for some reason, and couldn't believe that Dean was actually all that ZOMG OUT OF CONTROL!!1! -- because I figured that seriously, having a hot temper and hanging around being sleazy and getting drunk could not possible be considered "out of control" for a demon. Was the "out of control" part that when Crowley sent Dean on a contract hit, Dean instead killed the guy who'd put out the contract and was being casually misogynistic instead? COME ON. Wtf are all the other demons doing that's even more well behaved than that? Though every time we've seen them lately, they've been standing around wearing suits and taking orders, so maybe Dean was just out-demoning everybody, who knows.

 

    Loved every single minute of Dean/Sam and couldn't believe how far Sam was willing to go to find Dean.

On the one hand, I agree, I thought it was clever and interesting that Sam used a patsy to get to a crossroads demon. On the other hand, when Sam first saddled up to Lester, I thought *he* was going to be the one to buy Lester's soul, that Sam was acting *as* a crossroads demon as part of some sort of deal. So when it turned out that Sam and Lester had this weird "[stage whisper] what's my line?!" scene planned out to lure the crossroads demon to them, I was disappointed. Also, I don't see why it's on Sam that Lester is an idiot. Lester was the one who rushed to sell his soul, that's his funeral. I actually would have thought that Lester would have asked Sam, the creep who came up to him in a bar and started talking about demon summoning, if *he* would kill his wife. But maybe he did, I wasn't paying very close attention.

 

    The problem I think with keeping Dean DemonDean is...one note character. Deliberate hedonism and casual violence just can't hold your interest for that many episodes.

There's a whole lot that I think they could have done with Demon!Dean, imo. I actually think Vanilla!Dean is harder to find fresh stories for. One thing that I would have really wanted to see, would have been for Demon!Dean to go to hell. I would have just generally liked seeing him go down there as a demon, but I also really wanted Demon!Dean to see John (who's in hell currently, right? I don't really remember). Actually, though, speaking of that  reunite the whole family! I would have loved to see the whole Winchester family finally have their big, long-awaited reunion, except it's in hell, and Dean is a demon (sad trumpet). I mean damn, that would be one way to make John feel terrible, huh? It's one thing to have Dean talking trash about John and the meaninglessness of being a hunter while safely ensconced in the Bunker already getting shot up with the Cure, it would have been another thing for John to actually see Demon!Dean in full glory -- if he did, John would probably have been the one bemoaning his choices, Dean wouldn't have had to even bother. But I guess Demon!Dean wasn't even mean enough to do that? He wasn't even mean enough to parade himself in front of John and be like "Look at what you've done!"?

 

Another thing I would have wanted to see, is Demon!Dean as a hunter. They hinted at that when he took out Lester instead of his wife, and even how he dealt with the Cole situation so handily, and I wish they had kept going with it. I would have loved to see Dean take on what he would consider "villains" in an unsettling, twisted way (seeing as he's a demon). He kept doing everything else he'd been doing his whole life once he became a demon, why not hunting, too? He's also clever and a planner, and I can completely see what catrox is saying about him amassing power or playing the long game. Still hoping for him to come back and be the big bad somehow, I guess.

 

Ugh, and I just find it so hard to swallow that Demon!Dean's big mano-a-mano, fight-scene showdown was apparently with *Cole.* COME. ON.

 

With DemonDean more than willing to kill Sam if he got in Dean's way (and not at all reluctantly), they were really skirting going to that event horizon.

 

I've figured that the introduction of the MoC implied that some kind of Dean-kills-Sam SL is coming. What else would the point of introducing the MoC even be? That's what it's famous for. How do you have a show about two brothers, one of whom has the MoC, and *not* even put the SL of one brother killing the other on the table? On the other hand, the "year of the Deanmon" was about half an hour of Dean being just a tinge more of an asshole and, in aggregate, probably involved in *less* killing than is usual for him as a hunter, so who even knows.

 

If it had seemed like he was ramping up to be a serious villain, then okay.

 

Why wasn't he ramping up to be a serious villain? I figured he was on track to be the season's Big Bad, because obviously Demon!Dean is going to upstage whatever other Big Bad they could try and introduce. We've been watching Dean for a *decade,* the entire audience is obviously going to be invested in his character, if he's wondering around as a demon, there's just no way for some other Big Bad to compete with that.

 

I kept thinking that Dean must be faking being cured, too, but when Sam and Cas threw the holy water on him, I had to accept that apparently curing a demon was Just That Easy (this one time, though not any other time, really). On the other hand, when Dean dies again, won't he come back as a demon *again,* as long as he has the MoC? And I assume he'll die again because he dies like every other week, or at *least* once a season. So I'm holding out hope (albeit probably in vain) that this is a pause rather than an ending for the demon storyline.

 

Also, remember when Dean first got back from hell, way back at the beginning of S4, and had that vision of himself as a demon, and that "This is what you'll become!" thing? He was pretty freaked out, it was obviously nightmarish. I'm interested in what the difference in his reaction will be now versus what it was then, especially since he's spent all the time in the interim on earth and being himself, not doing something major off-screen like torturing people in Hell, so it'll show something w/r/t his character development since then.

Edited October 22, 2014 by rue721

[Tippi Blevins]

Speaking of no storyline, why did Crowley go to Cas and help him on his road to the Winchesters, asking nothing for return, and then leave?

 

I think Crowley just likes Dean. He didn't want him dead. He knew Castiel could help get him back.

[echo]

I know the holy water didn't work, proving Dean was no longer a demon. But what if he was somehow able to control it? He was impervious to the Devil's Trap & other anti-demon stuff; Sam surprised him with the holy water last week. So maybe if he was ready, he'd be able to counteract it somehow. (Can you see how desperate I am for this episode to not end the way it did?)

Also, why no telekinetic powers? It seemed like Demon!Dean was especially powerful...

[catrox14]

Oh I really like that idea tvecho.

 

Please show. Please give me a split personality Dean for like 2 episodes.  I would actually be happy if demon!Dean is actually faking it.  I shouldn't hang my hat on that but dammit I'm going to because that would be so awesome.

[gazebo]

Wow!  Only after three episodes and Deanmon had changed back to Dean.  I kinda thought they would drag out this storyline longer and felt vaguely disappointed when they did not. 

 

So I'm thinking, Sam got Deanmon all tied up and gave Deanmon repeated blood injections until he was weakened.  How come Deanmon could still break free from the ropes and escape the room with the devil's trap (I think there was a devil's trap on the floor of that room)?  Anyway, it was pretty scary with Deanmon chasing Sam throughout the bunker.  I think Deanmon would've definitely killed Sam if Castiel did not intervene. 

 

Crowley makes me laugh.  I can't believe how besotted by Dean he is.  I can't believe that he's so besotted that he actually helped Castiel get some grace in order to save Dean.  Crowley is such a great character.  I wanted to really hate him but I found myself laughing at him and at times even feeling sorry for him.  Thank you Mark Sheppard!

 

Castiel and Hannah scenes were kind of boring, except when the other angel attacked them.  I'm really not warming up to Hannah.

 

I can't believe we got Dean back so fast.  I kept on thinking, in that last shot of Dean looking pensive after Castiel left, that Dean's eyes were going to turn black again.  But yeah, Dean is back.

[catrox14]

To the person that thinks Jensen's forehead didn't move.  I think this tumblr post will put your mind at ease about his used of botox: Picspam ahead

 

,eye crinkles

 

forehead wrinkles.

 

furrowed brow ( also what is this look? I swear I want to believe it's demon!Dean realizing he has to pretend to be regular!Dean in this moment

 

furrowed brow + eye crinkles

 

http://jensenfans.tumblr.com/post/100673806669/soul-survivor-10x03

 

And man just look at this marvel of face Ackting.

[AwesomO4000]

Why was Sam waving around that demon knife if he wasn't even going to use it? What was the point of that?

My opinion only here: The point was that it was a distraction. The knife did exactly what it was supposed to do, distract Dean long enough - even if it was just by Dean gloating that Sam wouldn't use it - until Castiel could get there to help. Sam knew Castiel was on his way, and some time at the point when he was holding the knife on Dean, Sam saw Castiel coming. It was one of the reasons that he moved the knife away from Dean's throat (so Dean wouldn't be hurt when Cas nabbed him). Dean just didn't know it. He was likely thinking "ha ha, you can't do it, so you're giving up," when that's not what was happening at all. I actually thought it was a very tactical move on Sam's part. There was more going on there than "I have a knife so I'm going to use it." Sam had a plan, and killing Dean was not part of his plan. Even the lights were part of a plan, with Sam knowing Dean would go to turn the lockdown off.  Sam just didn't count on Dean picking up a hammer in the interim and so being able to get out of the room Sam was locking him into. And he likely didn't plan on Dean having much juice left in him. Sam thought that he was killing him with the treatment before that. So the confrontation was a continuous change of tactics by both brothers as the situation changed.

 

What was the point of some demon guy immolating himself in front of Crowley? Nobody on screen got scared at all,

 

I don't think the point was to make anyone scared. The point the demon was making was that Crowley was not running things properly, and his hope was to incite discontent among the other demons there. In my opinion, fear was the opposite of what the immolating demon wanted to do. He wanted the other demons to "wake up" and rebel.

 

Two things -- that hammering through the door was idiotic. He could have reached through the door once he splintered it and opened it instead of spending half an hour on the job while monologuing. What might have been so much better? Dean vanishes after the first couple blows and appears behind Sam, they have their confrontation then Castiel appears. Gives us a tiny taste of Demon powers, and it would even have been cheaper!

Heh concerning the doorknob, but then again, opening the door that way doesn't say "demon" to me - except maybe Crowley. Crowley would have opened the door that way. Smashing the door open while acting very intimidating to me is pretty much what I would have expected demon Dean to do, so I'm okay with it. (I was actually surprised he didn't make a "Shining" reference since Dean has before. Maybe in his head he was saying "Here's Johnny!")

 

As for the teleporting, Dean was supposed to have lost enough of his demon-ness that he was able to get out of the demon handcuffs and walk out of the devil's trap. If he still had demon powers like that, I wouldn't have bought that Cas would've been able to hold onto him. I thought that the idea was that he was already 60-75% cured (and the point was made that the process was even more grueling for Dean than it had been for Crowley), and so therefore demon powers may not have been in the cards anymore.

 

but I also really wanted Demon!Dean to see John (who's in hell currently, right? I don't really remember)

 

No, John got out of hell at the end of season 2. He helped Dean kill Azazel. I would have been disappointed with the brothers if after all they'd learned that if they knew John was in hell - especially since Dean also went to hell - and they hadn't tied to look him up /get him out/ etc before now.

 

Another thing I would have wanted to see, is Demon!Dean as a hunter.

 

That was more soulless Sam's thing. It gave him a purpose. But why would demon Dean bother with being a hunter? He needed to kill things, but having to do so within the confines of being a hunter would be restricting. The problem would be that it would be very easy for demon Dean to fall into the same patterns as soulless Sam - i.e. just killing the innocent people that got in the way of the job. And I don't think the writers wanted to go that way with Dean. Demon soul or not, it would still be Dean's soul tarnished with innocent, non-douchebag and not already condemned peoples' murders.

 

On the other hand, when Dean dies again, won't he come back as a demon *again,* as long as he has the MoC?

 

My guess would be yes, so it will be interesting - for me at least - to see how Sam will handle this. Will he let Dean have most of the kills to keep the mark of Cain happy? Or will he worry that Dean might get killed and maybe become a demon again, and so try to protect him from dangerous hunts (which Dean would hate that)?

 

How come Deanmon could still break free from the ropes and escape the room with the devil's trap (I think there was a devil's trap on the floor of that room)?

 

Dean explained that the blood treatments took away enough of his demon-ness that the cuffs and devil's trap no longer worked on him. Regular Dean with some extra strength wouldn't have so much of a  problem getting out of ropes.

 

 

And lastly, I think someone mentioned Crowley looking bored - I tried, but couldn't find the comment - and I think for me that was the point. Compared to his previous antics running away from and plotting to kill Abbadon with Dean, and his then "sabbatical" with Dean, Crowley now finds being "King of Hell" boring in comparison. He may have everything under control, but now he kind of misses the drama and the fun times. He's figuring out that he finds collecting souls and keeping up with all of the petty details of being King totally unfulfilling and boring. Of course they didn't have to potentially make us viewers a little bored in the process, but at least I got the point.

Edited October 22, 2014 by AwesomO4000

[Pete Martell]

I wish that either they let the demonic Dean storyline go on for a longer, uninterrupted chunk, or else showed him being worse during this little stint. Because I just didn't get the urgency in "curing" him. I mean, yes, it's Sam's brother and he doesn't want him to be a demon, but Dean's not really causing a lot of trouble unless you're a karaoke fan. If it had seemed like he was ramping up to be a serious villain, then okay. But I think they wanted to shelve the storyline for a while so they rushed through it in time to have one buffer episode and then the goofy, musical 200th episode. 

 

I guess considering who wrote it, I should just be glad nobody eye-humped a poodle to a porno soundtrack.

 

Dean had already beaten the pulp out of some guy (at the strip club), he'd killed a man - not a big deal for this show, but enough to where he was doing more than just drinking and screwing around. I imagine it probably would have gotten worse, since he felt so aimless and was looking for anything to stave it off.

 

Even if Dean had spent the whole time picking flowers, I think Sam would have wanted him cured. Being a demon was one of Dean's worst fears, and Sam knows what it's like to have some other version of you doing terrible things in your body. 

 

I do think that it would have been more interesting dramatically to have him close to doing something no one could come back from right before the cure, but I'm also glad to not have to see all the angst and guilt over that. 

[Pete Martell]

Why even have his grace sputtering out in the first place if he's just going to suck down some more from an anonymous angel? I would have been more interested if it had at least been Hannah's grace. And also I would have been more interested if Cas had actually had to make the decision himself, rather than Crawley playing nurse and basically pouring the grace down his throat. I mean, Cas has previously shoved an angel against a wall and stabbed him to death while sucking down his grace, it's not like they haven't already gone pretty dark with this. At least have Cas making his own choices. Otherwise there's no storyline.

 

Speaking of no storyline, why did Crowley go to Cas and help him on his road to the Winchesters, asking nothing for return, and then leave? Why didn't he just go to the bunker himself or send some demons there or some other more direct thing, OR just leave the whole issue alone? I don't even understand what his goal was -- for Dean not to be a demon? I really don't understand the whole "out of control" thing because isn't putting "out of control" dead people on lockdown what Hell is even for? I mean, isn't dealing with people like Demon!Dean exactly what Crowley's "King of Hell" gig exactly about? Bizarre.

 

Also, when Dean was shoving Crowley and stuff last episode, I figured Crowley must have been just sort of letting him for some reason, and couldn't believe that Dean was actually all that ZOMG OUT OF CONTROL!!1! -- because I figured that seriously, having a hot temper and hanging around being sleazy and getting drunk could not possible be considered "out of control" for a demon. Was the "out of control" part that when Crowley sent Dean on a contract hit, Dean instead killed the guy who'd put out the contract and was being casually misogynistic instead? COME ON. Wtf are all the other demons doing that's even more well behaved than that? Though every time we've seen them lately, they've been standing around wearing suits and taking orders, so maybe Dean was just out-demoning everybody, who knows.

 

On the one hand, I agree, I thought it was clever and interesting that Sam used a patsy to get to a crossroads demon. On the other hand, when Sam first saddled up to Lester, I thought *he* was going to be the one to buy Lester's soul, that Sam was acting *as* a crossroads demon as part of some sort of deal. So when it turned out that Sam and Lester had this weird "[stage whisper] what's my line?!" scene planned out to lure the crossroads demon to them, I was disappointed. Also, I don't see why it's on Sam that Lester is an idiot. Lester was the one who rushed to sell his soul, that's his funeral. I actually would have thought that Lester would have asked Sam, the creep who came up to him in a bar and started talking about demon summoning, if *he* would kill his wife. But maybe he did, I wasn't paying very close attention.

 

There's a whole lot that I think they could have done with Demon!Dean, imo. I actually think Vanilla!Dean is harder to find fresh stories for. One thing that I would have really wanted to see, would have been for Demon!Dean to go to hell. I would have just generally liked seeing him go down there as a demon, but I also really wanted Demon!Dean to see John (who's in hell currently, right? I don't really remember). Actually, though, speaking of that  reunite the whole family! I would have loved to see the whole Winchester family finally have their big, long-awaited reunion, except it's in hell, and Dean is a demon (sad trumpet). I mean damn, that would be one way to make John feel terrible, huh? It's one thing to have Dean talking trash about John and the meaninglessness of being a hunter while safely ensconced in the Bunker already getting shot up with the Cure, it would have been another thing for John to actually see Demon!Dean in full glory -- if he did, John would probably have been the one bemoaning his choices, Dean wouldn't have had to even bother. But I guess Demon!Dean wasn't even mean enough to do that? He wasn't even mean enough to parade himself in front of John and be like "Look at what you've done!"?

 

Another thing I would have wanted to see, is Demon!Dean as a hunter. They hinted at that when he took out Lester instead of his wife, and even how he dealt with the Cole situation so handily, and I wish they had kept going with it. I would have loved to see Dean take on what he would consider "villains" in an unsettling, twisted way (seeing as he's a demon). He kept doing everything else he'd been doing his whole life once he became a demon, why not hunting, too? He's also clever and a planner, and I can completely see what catrox is saying about him amassing power or playing the long game. Still hoping for him to come back and be the big bad somehow, I guess.

 

Why wasn't he ramping up to be a serious villain? I figured he was on track to be the season's Big Bad, because obviously Demon!Dean is going to upstage whatever other Big Bad they could try and introduce. We've been watching Dean for a *decade,* the entire audience is obviously going to be invested in his character, if he's wondering around as a demon, there's just no way for some other Big Bad to compete with that.

 

I was relieved they didn't have Hannah kill herself for Cas. I have been expecting that story (and still am), and the idea of it angers me, because it would just be another dead lady for more manpain.

 

I guess they are trying to say that Cas killing the other angel for his grace was a desperate act, one he doesn't want to do again. He's already seen yet again that his attempts to help the angels rarely work (they're still killing each other, still scattered and confused). I think he just wanted to die, or trying to convince himself he was fine with dying, rather than getting more blood (or grace) on his hands. Now he has another chance to do whatever he will be doing offcamera.

 

I don't think Crowley's reaction was all about OMG DEAN IS SCARY!!! I think Crowley wanted Dean under his control. He wanted a buddy and he wanted a weapon. When Dean proved himself to be neither, Crowley moved to neutralize him, because he no longer had any idea what Dean might do in the future. Dean could get really bored and decide to try to take over Hell. Dean could do his best to mess up Crowley's natural order of things. Dean could stab him in some random moment. 

 

It's not on Sam to predict Lester's stupidity, but he did set up the situation and was then helpless as Lester jumped at the chance to make the deal. I can see why he feels some guilt.

 

I don't think demon Dean would ever work as a big bad for the same reason Angelus and Dark Willow never worked for me on BTVS. Clearly the actors weren't going anywhere, and clearly the show wasn't going to keep them as twisted and evil, so it was mostly just a stalling game. The characters turning evil was mostly just a good chance to explore their pain (Willow) or the pain and reactions of others (Angelus). I do wish Dean had stayed a demon a little longer for that reason, but I'm glad they didn't try to make him the main villain. The main villain on Supernatural has always been the traumas of the characters, not an outside force.

 

I don't think Demon Dean would ever care about hunting, because he saw hunting as another burden heaped on him by John. 

 

I think there are tons of stories they could write for a "vanilla" Dean, although I know they likely never will. One of the main stories I'd want to write for him is for him to completely reassess himself as a person after this experience and what it brought to the surface. I'd like to see him go to Mary's grave. I'd like to see him consider taking some classes online. I'd like to see him change his fighting style, try new clothes (although he's already been doing that anyway), hair. Going on simple little dates. Just small things, really.

[Julia]

Dean had already beaten the pulp out of some guy (at the strip club), he'd killed a man - not a big deal for this show, but enough to where he was doing more than just drinking and screwing around. I imagine it probably would have gotten worse, since he felt so aimless and was looking for anything to stave it off.

 

You know, I'm not sure that killing the nebbishy evil guy (David Nykl, oh nooooooes) was the worst thing that Dean could have done. Sam essentially behaved in a demonic fashion by playing on the weakness and resentment of a drunken man under extreme emotional pressure and offered him the opportunity to get his revenge and go to hell, where Crowley was going to send him. He was going to die anyway, by his own choice (a choice Sam maneuvered him into), just ten years down the road.

 

What Dean accomplished by killing him was sparing the wife's life, while letting the nebbish die before the bargain was complete so that he wouldn't be stuck in hell, and Sam wouldn't have a mark against his soul for sending him there. 

 

I think soulless Sam did a lot worse, honestly. 

Edited October 22, 2014 by Julia

[Ria]

Sam essentially behaved in a demonic fashion by playing on the weakness and resentment of a drunken man under extreme emotional pressure and offered him the opportunity to get his revenge and go to hell, where Crowley was going to send him. He was going to die anyway, by his own choice (a choice Sam maneuvered him into), just ten years down the road.

 

 

Pretty much. The show was never going to allow Dean to be evil. In fact it made a big point of making Sam commit a worse act than Dean for no reason other than to show how even demon Dean is better than Sam, and probably most of humanity. Which is why I always thought it was so pointless to attempt this story when the writers would never have the guts to truly tarnish their saint.

[oliverwendell]

Argh!  Count me in as disappointed that the Demon Dean storyline lasted only three episodes.  There was so much story goodness just laying there on the table, waiting to be picked up and fondled, and damned if Carver and crew didn't get up and walk away from it.  The Mark of Cain had better turn into a big f*cking deal that justifies the abandonment of the Demon Dean story, or I will be mighty peeved.  But unfortunately, I suspect that Dean's demon storyline was sacrificed on the altar of The Almighty 200th Episode.  They wanted both brothers to be themselves for whatever gimmicky shit they have in mind, and unfortunately that episode was Episode 5 of this season, so Dean had to be cured pronto.

 

I have to say, though, Dean's return was a great acting job by Ackles.  You could instantly tell it was him, and you could literally watch the layers of world-weariness and guilt and hopelessness settle back into his eyes.  So sad. 

[catrox14]

Dean had already beaten the pulp out of some guy (at the strip club), he'd killed a man - not a big deal for this show, but enough to where he was doing more than just drinking and screwing around. I imagine it probably would have gotten worse, since he felt so aimless and was looking for anything to stave it off.

 

Even if Dean had spent the whole time picking flowers, I think Sam would have wanted him cured. Being a demon was one of Dean's worst fears, and Sam knows what it's like to have some other version of you doing terrible things in your body.

 

 

The problem here is that the dialogue never reflected that Sam was doing this because he was scared FOR Dean. Obviously, we can infer that is why Sam was doing but I needed to hear Sam say to Dean "I know you would never really want to be a demon. You lived in Hell with demons and we both know you would rather be dead than be this thing. But I can't live with you dead so I'm going to do what I need to bring you back to humanity".  Instead we got Sam saying "I hate demons" and "I am pulling your lameass out of the fire". He was still taking demon!Dean's bait. 

 

 

I thought the "Welcome back Dean" line was bad. That didn't even sound like something Sam would ever actually say.  How perfect would it have been for Sam to just look at him and say 'Hey Jerk" That would have been perfect.

[Pete Martell]

 

I thought the "Welcome back Dean" line was bad. That didn't even sound like something Sam would ever actually say.  How perfect would it have been for Sam to just look at him and say 'Hey Jerk" That would have been perfect.

 

I think the Sam who would have said that died sometime in season 2.

 

I thought the line was true to the Sam of many recent seasons - formal and awkward, and completely unsure as to what his relationship with Dean truly is.

You know, I'm not sure that killing the nebbishy evil guy (David Nykl, oh nooooooes) was the worst thing that Dean could have done. Sam essentially behaved in a demonic fashion by playing on the weakness and resentment of a drunken man under extreme emotional pressure and offered him the opportunity to get his revenge and go to hell, where Crowley was going to send him. He was going to die anyway, by his own choice (a choice Sam maneuvered him into), just ten years down the road.

 

Absolutely it's not the worst thing Dean could have done. I wouldn't be surprised if he did worse things in the time we didn't see him, but I'm not all that sorry to not see it. It's a copout, yes, but I had no real interest in seeing demon Dean rape and pillage. The show made a mistake in letting us seeing the bad things Sam did while soulless (like killing that woman who was being held hostage) and then dropping it. It reeked of faux-edginess just to be edgy.

 

Other than shock value, I'm not entirely sure why they made Dean a demon if they weren't going to truly explore it (maybe they still will, I don't know), but I was worried they'd have him do something that would hang over his head forever and not even realize that's what they'd done.

The problem here is that the dialogue never reflected that Sam was doing this because he was scared FOR Dean. Obviously, we can infer that is why Sam was doing but I needed to hear Sam say to Dean "I know you would never really want to be a demon. You lived in Hell with demons and we both know you would rather be dead than be this thing. But I can't live with you dead so I'm going to do what I need to bring you back to humanity".  Instead we got Sam saying "I hate demons" and "I am pulling your lameass out of the fire". He was still taking demon!Dean's bait. 

 

I'd like to hear that too, but between the general writing issues, and that I don't think Dean and Sam are in a place where he'd be able to say that type of thing openly or honestly, I'm not surprised we didn't get it.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Pete Martell

[Demented Daisy]

Other than shock value, I'm not entirely sure why they made Dean a demon if they weren't going to truly explore it

 

 

I (and a couple of others) have said that this is disturbing tendency over the past couple of seasons -- come up with a story line, but don't have an endgame in mind.  Closing the gates of Hell, Sam being possessed by an angel, making Dean a demon.  All stories that (so far) did not have satisfactory endings because they ran with the idea before fully thinking it through, IMO.

 

As for this episode, meh.  A couple of times, I thought to myself, "Oh, kill him, Sam, and let's get this over with."  Just because I was so annoyed with the story line.  I hate Demon Dean.  Always have, always will.

[catrox14]

I think the Sam who would have said that died sometime in season 2.

 

I thought the line was true to the Sam of many recent seasons - formal and awkward, and completely unsure as to what his relationship with Dean truly is.

 

Eh, I disagree. Sam was looking at their pictures from before and smiling fondly, looking at Dean's room, he even saved Dean's handwritten good bye note. Every other line of dialogue from ep1 to this ep had Sam saying "My brother this, my brother that. I'm going to save my brother, brother, brother, brother, brother brother. " I kept thinking you know Sam your brother does have a name.  His name is Dean. Combine that with "This is me pulling your lameass out of the fire" IMO  was trying to reestablish the Soulful Care Bear Sam Winchester from s1 and s2. Because IMO the Sam of s8 and s9 that we saw right up until he was faced with Dean actually really dying, theoretically wouldn't have even tried to yank Dean's lameass out of the fire. Calling Dean a jerk seems right in line with the what I think is a reset of sorts to have us meet Sam Winchester 1.0

[Pete Martell]

I (and a couple of others) have said that this is disturbing tendency over the past couple of seasons -- come up with a story line, but don't have an endgame in mind.  Closing the gates of Hell, Sam being possessed by an angel, making Dean a demon.  All stories that (so far) did not have satisfactory endings because they ran with the idea before fully thinking it through, IMO.

 

I could understand the gates of Hell storyline, as it set up Sam being near-death and Dean blaming himself. I thought the Gadreel story was great material to explore Dean's mind and choices (I don't think they did that well with Sam's POV, unfortunately), and it helped set up the rest of season 9. I'm just wary here because I'm worried they will just go back to MoC and then they have everything with Cole and I don't want to see them just drop Dean being a demon. I at least want to hear him talk about it. Hell, have him talk to Mary's photo if he can't say it to anyone.

Eh, I disagree. Sam was looking at their pictures from before and smiling fondly, looking at Dean's room, he even saved Dean's handwritten good bye note. Every other line of dialogue from ep1 to this ep had Sam saying "My brother this, my brother that. I'm going to save my brother, brother, brother, brother, brother brother. " I kept thinking you know Sam your brother does have a name.  His name is Dean. Combine that with "This is me pulling your lameass out of the fire" IMO  was trying to reestablish the Soulful Care Bear Sam Winchester from s1 and s2. Because IMO the Sam of s8 and s9 that we saw right up until he was faced with Dean actually really dying, theoretically wouldn't have even tried to yank Dean's lameass out of the fire. Calling Dean a jerk seems right in line with the what I think is a reset of sorts to have us meet Sam Winchester 1.0

 

I see what you're saying. I guess I'm not sure Sam would be in that mental place, especially since he was in shock from everything that had happened throughout the episode.

 

I think even in the last two seasons he loved Dean and knew he loved him, he's just not sure how to say it.

[SueB]

Thanks Awesome04000 for saying so many of the things I was going to say but didn't have time to post.

 

On this:

 

My guess would be yes, so it will be interesting - for me at least - to see how Sam will handle this. Will he let Dean have most of the kills to keep the mark of Cain happy? Or will he worry that Dean might get killed and maybe become a demon again, and so try to protect him from dangerous hunts (which Dean would hate that)?

 

That's where MY head is at.  But it may not only be Sam who is worried. Dean himself could be worried about getting killed and going back to being a demon.

 

I got a quick rewatch this am thanks to iTunes posting so early.  I really felt like this episode was very layered.  And J2 were f*cking brilliant IMO.  It's going to take me a couple of days to really unpack all of those scenes. 

 

There was quite a bit of live-tweeting last night. My favorite bit was Jared saying he kept messing up on slapping Dean so that he could re-do the scene, because it allowed him to slap the director around a bit.  And Jensen took a selfie to which Jared replied, hey, "that's my shirt".  So... essential adorable cast was adorable during the live broadcast. 

 

ETA: Also Macbeth, I'm with catrox...I have no idea where the botox theory is coming from.  Exhibit B for the "Clearly not" case:

http://laoih.tumblr.com/post/100677874351/deans-in-pain-i-mean-hes-in-bad-pain-10-03

Edited October 23, 2014 by SueB

[7kstar]

And the mysterious red-haired lady at the end, the New Bad, basically Abaddon Part II.

 

And I write this next part with no small amount of fear.  Jensen can be an effective actor, especially in comedy.  While his potrayal of a demon has been passable in previous episodes,  the decision to let him direct the episode where he really needed to give his "A" game is a fireable offense.  He really needed to be directed by someone else.  The writing was not there to help him at all.  Jensen does not have the acting chops to pull this off without major support.

 

And while I am no fan of fight scenes, apparently Jensen and Jared need the physical contact to bring any intensity to their scenes. 

 

Also, Mr. Jensen, you are a ridiculously handsome man.  Stop the botox immediately.  Your looks need no "improvement," and your acting cannot survive it.  I spent a good deal of time looking at your forehead last night wondering if it would move.  That would be a no.

 

Time to wrap things up guys.

Well, there are certainly some fans that agree with you but Jensen does have the ability to act and direct.  Could the script be tighter, could they have done some things better and could they have expanded the Demon part, yes.  I think the biggest fail, is doing this whole part as a flashback because it brings the conflict down and takes away the urgency.  It is difficult to recover from that when you head down the wrong path.

 

  Do I believe this is the strongest script, nope but it had moments that I really enjoyed.  So sorry I disagree and considering Jensen did this one before he did the other two, it holds up.  Jensen's acting continues to knock it out of the park.

 

I think the reason for the long knocking down the door with the hammer was homage to horror films.  They always have the bad guy doing something that would allow the other person to easily escape but they stand still waiting for the other shoe to drop.

 

However, Jensen isn't doing Botox.  There is a strange look on a face when they do it in all the places your implying he is doing, and well he wouldn't have the deep wrinkles he has. Botox would make it impossible for deep wrinkles and he has plenty of them.   Lighting also can cast an illusion about lack of wrinkles.  They did that in the old days to help actresses look younger, one example Lucy, from I Love Lucy.   So I guess we will just disagree.

 

The one thing I really don't see, Sam doing something so much worse than what Dean did, that he now holds the monster card.  For once, I really don't have any complaints in that department.  It will be interesting to see if Dean and Cain meet and how the mark will effect him.

 

this ep isn't the best one ever, but it does have some strong moments and some oops what were they thinking?  I do wish they had tried some other ideas, and right now, not interested in the surprise woman at the end.  Overall I liked it more than I hated it, so that was good, I was afraid I would really hate it.

[Pete Martell]

What was the point of some demon guy immolating himself in front of Crowley? Nobody on screen got scared at all, because again, even things that could arguably be made into threats weren't sold as threats in this episode because god forbid there's any suspense at all -- but I thought that it would at least have *some* kind of consequence, because why else include it? But no, nothing else happened in that so-called storyline, it remained inexplicable. I'm still even confused because, if the guy was already in hell, who cares if he decides to immolate himself? What even happens to him after the immolation, doesn't he just stay in hell? Meh.

 

I'm not even clear why, as a demon, Dean was so opposed to hanging out with Sam. He had all the same likes and dislikes otherwise, it seemed like. Why wouldn't he want to spend time with his same old bff? Why wouldn't he even try to trick/persuade/whatever Sam into becoming a demon, too, especially if he genuinely liked it and wanted to stay that way? I thought that the thing with demons was that they weren't that sentimental and were pretty pragmatic -- so wouldn't Dean actually be *better* able to win Sam over than he usually is, because he could be totally pragmatic about it? Wouldn't their relationship actually be *less* adversarial if they didn't have real feelings/morality/whatever?

 

I think the point was for certain demons to show Crowley that they've had enough of him not caring, focusing more on his pets, brooding, and being unreliable. I don't even know if the demon actually intended to kill himself - I think he was just making a statement. I think the point was to show how distracted Crowley is and how he'll probably end up being challenged over Hell again.

 

I don't think demon Dean had the same likes and dislikes as Dean. Other than drinking and sleeping around (and Dean never did half as much sleeping around as he bragged about doing), they didn't seem that similar to me. I imagine demon Dean would just want to get away from Sam and everything that Sam represented for Dean - angst and pain and regret. 

 

I think demon Dean just wanted away from everyone and everything, really, other than the basics (drinking, women, killing). Human Dean was terrified of being alone. Demon Dean seemed to crave it.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Pete Martell

[AwesomO4000]

The problem here is that the dialogue never reflected that Sam was doing this because he was scared FOR Dean. Obviously, we can infer that is why Sam was doing but I needed to hear Sam say to Dean "I know you would never really want to be a demon. You lived in Hell with demons and we both know you would rather be dead than be this thing. But I can't live with you dead so I'm going to do what I need to bring you back to humanity".  Instead we got Sam saying "I hate demons" and "I am pulling your lameass out of the fire". He was still taking demon!Dean's bait. 

 

 

I thought the "Welcome back Dean" line was bad. That didn't even sound like something Sam would ever actually say.  How perfect would it have been for Sam to just look at him and say 'Hey Jerk" That would have been perfect.

 

You might be asking too much from this writing duo there. Though I did think Sam came close with his insisting that he was going to get his brother back and that the things demon Dean was saying weren't really Dean. I thought Sam said something along the lines that Dean wouldn't like what he was saying or doing once he was himself again, but maybe that was last episode? I'll have to rewatch both to see if that's where my impression came from or I was just reading more into it than was there. His use of saving Dean sort of implies it, but I agree, if they do talk I would like Sam to say something like "I know you said you wanted to stay that way, but that was the demon talking. I knew that the real you would never have wanted that."

 

As for Jerk... nope too soon for me. It was only two episodes ago demon Dean and Crowley were using it so nope nope nope. I would want it to be in a less charged moment, something quiet and almost unexpected on both their parts. And most of all not so close together with that tainted exchange. Unfortunately after that, if they used the "Jerk" "Bitch" thing too soon it would just seem like a forced do-over for the Crowley/Dean exchange at this point for me.

 

And I also agree to some extent with Pete Martell. Although I'm not sure that that Sam is entirely gone, and they did seem to be bringing the nostalgia back with earlier scenes, I do think Sam was a little unsure at that point. He not only was just then feeling relieved that Dean was Dean, but I would guess that he would be worried exactly what Dean remembered from their exchange and what regular Dean would now think of him - especially concerning the whole Lester thing. So I can see Sam being unsure of where he and Dean stood. It's maybe ironic that Dean is worried about Sam being upset about him trying to kill Sam while Sam is likely worried what Dean is going to think about the Lester thing now that Dean knows.

[DittyDotDot]

And I write this next part with no small amount of fear.  Jensen can be an effective actor, especially in comedy.  While his potrayal of a demon has been passable in previous episodes,  the decision to let him direct the episode where he really needed to give his "A" game is a fireable offense.  He really needed to be directed by someone else.  The writing was not there to help him at all.  Jensen does not have the acting chops to pull this off without major support.

 

I do agree this being such a "big" episode, they should have gotten an experienced director to bring it home, but with this writing duo I'm not sure it's was entirely a directing problem. I just showered, so I'm gonna stay away from the acting chops right now, but I do think having Jensen direct this episode out of order might be a bigger problem here. In the past, Jensen's episodes have been one-offs so shooting out of order wasn't such a big deal. This being a very mythology-heavy episode, I think it hurt the story when they pulled it out of production order. It just seems like the first two episodes were just as listless and meandering because they were trying to line up with what was done here. I think it might have been a better choice to have Jensen direct the premiere or give him a one-off if they insisted on pulling it out of order. Too much important developments happened here and they hadn't figured out how they got here first, IMO.

 

And, I love Jensen, and I think he has a good eye and good instincts, but I'm not sure he's yet an experienced enough director for this sort of episode. There was a lot of build up and he kept the pace rolling for the most part, but then it just stopped. There was no payoff to all that tension. I was sure I missed a scene or two because it was so anti-climatic. All I kept thinking of was when the priest cured that demon, in the MoL film, there was a flash of light and I think some thunder too, to make it feel almost epic. Here, nothing but the black eyes morphing into his regular pretty greens.  I think this is when a more experienced director would have seen they needed something more than what was on the page to sell this moment. To take a phrase from Kim Manners about filming the scene where they crash into the bar and take on seven demons in The Magnificent Seven (not a direct quote here, but I think it's pretty close): I looked at this scene and thought this could be really silly if we don't pump it up and give it a lot of energy.

 

The only thing I'll say about Jensen's acting as Demon Dean--thank heavens he's back to his usual 5-pack-a-day voice than the 25-pack voice he was trying out. I had a hard time stifling the giggles whenever he talked in these first few episodes. Go ahead, I borrowed Hannibal's plastic murder suit, so launch those tomatoes if you want. ;)

 

 

ETA: Even though anticlimactic and anti-climatic sound similar, they do not mean the same thing and I was not referring to the lack of weather in the episode. Silly, silly me!

Edited October 23, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[supposebly]

 

I was sure I missed a scene or two because it was so anticlimactic.

 

Same here. I kept waiting for Dean to pounce on Castiel because I couldn't quite believe that it was that simple.

 

Other thoughts: Demon!Dean sure was chatty during the meandering through the lair of letters. I'm guessing it was a homage to The Shining (never actually saw it) but I think it would have been entirely in character to use that famous line.

I also thought, Crowley sure is an idiot if during the curing, he could have gotten out of the cuffs. Unless this is purely a MoC-Demon kind of effect.

 

Agree with the assertion that Sam's way of rescue is less flashy but they could have done a much better job to show how it all happened. How is it that a few minutes in Mystery Spot show me exactly where Sam is at and what is happening and why it is happening and what's going on his head while with three very talky episodes (mostly taken up by Cole, a character I don't care about and Crowley, who has become way too "dumped-boyfriend" to feel in any sense impressive anymore).

Instead, I have to laboriously scramble it all together with cryptic phone calls, scenes taken out of context, (I still have no idea why Dean didn't just wake up, "boned" (yes, I'm twelve) Crowley and took off) because they like their bloody season-beginning flashbacks so damn much? Why is it so hard to do a linear progression from A to B? Why can't they just continue from the moment of the finale? Why do they think they have to sort of make-up for hiatus time?

 

Why am I still asking this after 9 years? It's obviously never going to change.

Edited October 23, 2014 by supposebly

[Tippi Blevins]

I attributed "Dog Dean Afternoon" to these writers in an earlier post I made. I have since realized what they actually wrote was "Man's Best Friend With Benefits." I got my weird bestiality episodes mixed up. Sorry about that.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Tippi Blevins

[rue721]

All I kept thinking of was when the priest cured that demon, in the MoL film, there was a flash of light and I think some thunder too, to make it feel almost epic. Here, nothing but the black eyes morphing into his regular pretty greens.

 

This is one of the reasons why I was wondering if he was faking being cured -- it was too subtle.

 

If he managed to walk out of the devil's trap (and seriously? HOW.) even though it "hurt," I think he could probably stay still and pretend to be fine when holy water gets sprayed on him even while he's a demon. On the other hand, holy water usually smokes when it gets sprayed on demons, and it didn't smoke this time, so...?

 

The other reasons I'm wondering if he was faking it: 

-- the amnesia! COME. ON.

-- his expression looked fake-y to me. It was so innocent and butter-wouldn't-melt-in-his-mouth. That might have been JA needing to go a little too far to make sure we could see the difference between demon!Dean and vanilla flavor. But seriously, even with just the MoC, Dean has been pretty scary lately. I can't be the only one who remembers "bitch, look at me! [saws off vamp's head]." He just seemed way too soft and nice when he "came to," especially compared to how he'd been just pre-death/pre-demon.

-- in horror or action movies you ALWAYS have to kill the villain twice. Hasn't Sam seen "Predator"?

 

But maybe it's just wishful thinking because I want the arc to continue!

 

FWIW, I thought the direction was good. The actors were bringing it, imo especially JP, who I thought managed to pull off "weary yet afraid yet determined" successfully. I thought the stuff at the convenience store with Cas looked good, I liked some of the angles of how they were shooting things (like the shot of when Crowley was basically pouring the grace down Cas's throat). They also managed to make the bunker visually interesting and actually creepy for once, so that the chase actually felt like a chase (that couldn't have been easy. How big is the area (in real life/on the set) that they were "chasing" each other through? It looked like they were using just the one little hallway, and a few rooms they always use, like the study). I also liked how the bunker seemed so "red" somehow. Honestly, no gripes about the acting or direction on my end. There was some stuff that seemed really cheaped out (for example, imo those photos that Sam was looking through looked ridiculous. That last one looked like they had literally cut and pasted part of it in Preview or something), and the bizarrely low number of locations and speaking roles. But I guess they've got to cut costs somewhere, and that stuff wasn't really a big deal anyway. The script was BY FAR what I had an issue with, personally. The plots were paper-thin and didn't follow internal logic, the dialogue was boring, the fight was boring and silly (Cas stopping it by just hugging Dean from behind really tightly and saying "it's over" was ridiculous! Aside from how dumb it looked, how were they going to get Dean from the hallway back into the chair just from Cas holding on to him like that? And how were they even going to be able to bind him to the chair/in that room, seeing as he'd just UP AND WALKED OUT last time they'd done that? Sigh), etc.

 

It does seem bizarre to me that they'd want to have JA direct an episode AND play the MotW in it AND be a lead as usual AND the episode itself would be basically a bottle episode (which I've heard, though don't know from experiences, obvs, is relatively hard to direct) AND the script was assigned to writers who can't/won't write. Is JA now going to also be a gaffer and work in post? Why did they decide not to spread the work around more? But eh, I guess this was the episode that it made practical sense for JA to direct, for whatever reason, so he directed this one. Who knows.

[SueB]

About the only scene I would criticize IS the lack of something dramatic as they come ted the final cure step. It's possible they wanted to make it more of a quiet moment. Two things they could have done:

1) a comment like he's been passed out for the last two injection and Cas saying that's a good thing.

2) some sort of involuntary shudder and then a gasp or something.

Otherwise, I thought the direction was excellent. His best so far. I was legit on the edge of my seat during the stalking scene. It's not that I didn't know they'd survive, I was worried about how much more damage (physical or emotional) we'd get. I also felt like there was a clear trajectory between the premier and this episode. In the premier we saw how Crowley was feeding the Mark and keeping Dean essentially more chill. But it was starting to wear thin. Post breakup, I thought it was evident that Dean was on a downward spiral. By the time he got to the bunker, IMO, he was more demon than man. They wrote the first half dozen scripts before they filmed The first episode (which aired third). I don't think there was any chalked to the writing due to sequence.

I also wanted to mention how much I appreciated the growl sound effect they used with the exorcism. Scary.

[catrox14]

It just seems like the first two episodes were just as listless and meandering because they were trying to line up with what was done here. I think it might have been a better choice to have Jensen direct the premiere or give him a one-off if they insisted on pulling it out of order. Too much important developments happened here and they hadn't figured out how they got here first, IMO.

 

Sadly Jensen was stuck with the crap duo and I think he made a pretty decent purse out of that sow's ear.

 

I don't know that the listless and meandering of the first two episodes is a function of the shooting order as much as the writing. I don't think any director can control a script that has acts 1 and 3 and 5 be about Sam or Dean/Crowley and but demands Acts 2 and 4 be about the angels and is setting up for the SL to converge 3 episodes later. And the show has been using that formula since Carver took over even in episodes not directed by Jensen. 

 

I know Jensen said they accomodated him by filming this first because so he could prep during the hiatus. From everything he's said in interview, he had every shot, every scene laid out the way he wanted before he came to set to start shooting. He did that so that the AD and DP could just work from his playbook. In order to do that he already had access to the first two scripts to try and work back to this point, but it was the first time he was actually acting as demon!Dean.

 

So to that point I don't think the order of shooting affected much other than Jensen trying to find the right notes for his interpretation of demon!Dean.  And honestly looking at all three 3ps as one big arc I think it's a pretty great acting job to create demon!Dean who has already been on the road and doing bad things and had essentially graduated to being the killer that would stalk Sam and then gets captured and turned back to regular!Dean. Then goes back to playing the badass demon!Dean in Riechenbach before he gets captured and undemoned.

 

I did not like the flashback scene. I was a bit disappointed with the actress trying to play all 'Who summons me! ' Okay deal, kiss. Even Crowley's kiss with the old guy had more ....something. Bleh. But she was okay during the torture scenes.  But to be fair, I'm spoiled on the crossroads demons getting to be creepy and monologue and be fun. 

 

 

I also wanted to mention how much I appreciated the growl sound effect they used with the exorcism. Scary.

 

 

I totally freaked out on that. That was the scariest moment and one of the legit scariest of the entire series. Those were totally Hell Hound sounds and I thought he's channeling a Hell Hound.

 

And the other aspect is that we don't know how much of what Jensen actually got on film was edited differently than what he might have done.   That's why I want to see his director's cut one day.

Edited October 23, 2014 by catrox14

[echo]

This is one of the reasons why I was wondering if he was faking being cured -- it was too subtle.

 

If he managed to walk out of the devil's trap (and seriously? HOW.) even though it "hurt," I think he could probably stay still and pretend to be fine when holy water gets sprayed on him even while he's a demon. On the other hand, holy water usually smokes when it gets sprayed on demons, and it didn't smoke this time, so...?

 

The other reasons I'm wondering if he was faking it: 

-- the amnesia! COME. ON.

-- his expression looked fake-y to me. It was so innocent and butter-wouldn't-melt-in-his-mouth. That might have been JA needing to go a little too far to make sure we could see the difference between demon!Dean and vanilla flavor. But seriously, even with just the MoC, Dean has been pretty scary lately. I can't be the only one who remembers "bitch, look at me! [saws off vamp's head]." He just seemed way too soft and nice when he "came to," especially compared to how he'd been just pre-death/pre-demon.

-- in horror or action movies you ALWAYS have to kill the villain twice. Hasn't Sam seen "Predator"?

 

But maybe it's just wishful thinking because I want the arc to continue!

 

I share these feelings. I want the arc to continue, not to end so... senselessly. Dean being cured simply doesn't make sense. It was too easy. I hope he wasn't cured; Demon!Dean pretending to be good would be awesome!

 

But I do have to admit there are problems with the theory of him not being cured. He got burned by holy water before...

[catrox14]

The more I watch that scene the more I think it's a fake out. If we think Riechenbach is meaningful as a title then maybe this is payoff. That Dean is still not all the way back and is choosing to stay hidden or has been supplanted by demon!Dean who is playing at being regular!Dean. But either way Dean is still not!Dean and not all the way back. I think it's possible the Mark itself is changing how Dean reacted to the cure or allowed demon!Dean to control the outcome.

Soul Survivor could very well mean that demon!Dean's soul survived and is smart enough to fool Sam. I just don't want to accept that it's already over.

 

I wonder if the tptb are waiting for the audience reception to demon!Dean before deciding what to do with him permanently .If there is a clamor to keep him they can, and if the audience feedback is kill him they have it set already. And Jensen has played it cagily for either to work.

 

 

ETA: Because mobile posting makes for terrible English, apparently.

Edited October 23, 2014 by catrox14

[Mcolleague]

Finally got to rewatch the episode last night. Now that I've rewatched, I like the episode a lot better, and think a lot of my dislike came from how high my expectations were since it was SOOOO spoiled. Considering the Tumblr user who predicted the Sam/Lester scene, there was basically no surprise in this entire episode. I'm still not a fan of this script, I think it was clunky, and not well-paced, but not as bad as I initially thought. I'm also really beginning to think that the unsatisfying feel, the lack of catharsis at the end of this episode was deliberate, because the arc isn't over. 

 

Just wanted to comment that I was actually very impressed with the direction, and thought it was quite a noticeable improvement from the first three episodes Jensen directed. I really enjoyed the colour scheme and use of shadows, so many shots with faces half obscured by shadow in the scenes where the characters are doing shady things - the light/dark emphasis very fitting for the whole blurring of the lines/what makes a monster themes. I also really loved the shot of Dean stalking Sam with a hammer through the halls, where his shadow appears on the wall before he comes into frame. On top of that, the way he held the hammer behind him so the shadow came out kinda *mirrored* - awesome and unexpected, and maybe symbolic of something I haven't figured out? I also really liked the way the light hit Dean's eyes as Sam was curing him, so it was sometimes green and sometimes so dark it was almost black, also fitting with the ambiguity around how much this person is Dean and how much is the demon. Just a lot of really thought provoking choices throughout. I wasn't sure from the Twitter exchange if Jensen was the one who picked out the hammer as his weapon of choice? I would be so beyond impressed if that was the case. The perfection of the symbolism in Dean choosing a blunt little instrument (somebody on Tumblr made an awesome post on this). I was actually really surprised by the level of artistry and creativity in the direction this time around, and feel that he has really grasped the idea of silent storytelling.

[catrox14]

Well, jeez. I didn't even make the connection to Blunt Little Instrument and the hammer. 

 

I'll just be over here...in the corner....curled up and crying because JFC .  Wow.

[Coxfires]

Seriously, that was it? We are done with Demon!Dean? Just like that, in an half assed procedure that consisted in injecting three syringes of sacred blood, and Dean saying one mean stuff to Sam? Well that better not be it, because that sucked. Where is the epicness of Meg's exorcism in Born Under a Bad Sign, Dean having to become Death, John's possession by Azazel...I had hope, but this episode squandered it. Oh well.

[DittyDotDot]

Honestly, no gripes about the acting or direction on my end. There was some stuff that seemed really cheaped out (for example, imo those photos that Sam was looking through looked ridiculous. That last one looked like they had literally cut and pasted part of it in Preview or something), and the bizarrely low number of locations and speaking roles. But I guess they've got to cut costs somewhere, and that stuff wasn't really a big deal anyway. The script was BY FAR what I had an issue with, personally. The plots were paper-thin and didn't follow internal logic, the dialogue was boring, the fight was boring and silly (Cas stopping it by just hugging Dean from behind really tightly and saying "it's over" was ridiculous! Aside from how dumb it looked, how were they going to get Dean from the hallway back into the chair just from Cas holding on to him like that? And how were they even going to be able to bind him to the chair/in that room, seeing as he'd just UP AND WALKED OUT last time they'd done that? Sigh), etc.

 

But that's exactly my point, and I'm not picking on Jensen here, he did what the script told him to do. But, I think a more experienced director can sometimes look at these things and realize they need more than what's on the page.  That's why I mentioned Kim Manners, he routinely elevated the writing of his episodes by seeing the weak spots in the writing and working out solutions, IMO. I'm not saying that Jensen's a crap director, at all. Like I said, I think he has a good eye and good instincts, and I hope to see him continue to direct (especially since he seems to take great delight in it), but I also can see his inexperience in this episode.

 

Directing is not just framing shots and getting actors to say their lines--which Jensen does beautifully--but also "managing" the episode and sometimes making something where the writing gave you nothing, IMO. I think a more experienced director would have seen how anti-climatic it was written and known he'd need to figure a way to push the sequence further in-order to sell the moment. This show isn't a "only do exactly as the script says" type of show. For an experienced director, I'd think that's a blessing. Being open to going off-script can produce some of the most ingenious and beautiful things. But you need have the experience to know when you need to guide the script and when to let the script guide you. I'm not sure Jensen yet has that level of experience, is all, but I'm confident if they keep giving him chances, he'll get there.

 

I love Jensen and can't wait to see what he does the next time he gets a chance to direct, but I also feel like fair is fair and if this was any other director I would be saying the same things. And, I'm not trying to say Jensen didn't do well, I think he did. I think he did especially well keeping the camera moving so all those scenes of Dean tied up weren't static and boring. IMO, those were the best scenes in the episode. I also appreciate how he framed some of his shots and how he lit some of the scenes. But I also see some things that could use some improvement too.

 

 

I also felt like there was a clear trajectory between the premier and this episode. In the premier we saw how Crowley was feeding the Mark and keeping Dean essentially more chill. But it was starting to wear thin. Post breakup, I thought it was evident that Dean was on a downward spiral. By the time he got to the bunker, IMO, he was more demon than man. They wrote the first half dozen scripts before they filmed The first episode (which aired third). I don't think there was any chalked to the writing due to sequence.

 

I realize the first few episodes would've been written already, but once you start filming things can change. Things you think are going to work may need some adjustments and/or moving story points from one episode to another. When you film out of order this way, there's no going backsies until you catch up to what you've already done.  So, for me, I don't feel like they used what they learned from the previous episode and built on it in the next, but I feel like they filmed this episode and worked backward. 

 

I think it would've been smarter for Jensen direct the premiere. I think that episode was less in need of some of special effects and was more character driven--which sits more with Jensen's strengths anyway, IMO. It's not like Dean was any lighter in this episode and I think Jensen finding Demon Dean in Black and then building on it would've helped this storyline immensely. Plus, Carver is a stronger writer, so the script probably wasn't in as much need of a more experienced director to help work out some of it's problems. So, I'd say this is more of a showrunner problem than anything. Carver should've known that Jensen would need to focus his energy on performing in this very important Dean episode and Carver should've also known not to give a script from his weakest writers to his least experienced director. Again, that's not a dig at Jensen, but the reality that he's only directed three times previously in his career.

[Demented Daisy]

The perfection of the symbolism in Dean choosing a blunt little instrument

 

 

As if I did needed to be reminded of Dream a Little Dream of Me again.  I'll never stop hating that they made Dean into what he was most afraid he would become.

 

ETA 

 

Demon Dean: Dad knew who you really were. A good soldier and nothing else. Daddy's blunt little instrument. Your own father didn't care whether you lived or died, why should you?

 

Edited October 23, 2014 by Demented Daisy

[catrox14]

I think Jensen has to pick his battles. He doesn't get to choose which episodes he directs. He also doesn't have the final edit on the episode. He might have done something more interesting but maybe it was cut for time. That s why I want to see the director cut. It might be better and it might be worse. And we don't know if the duo even allows major changes.

[Pete Martell]

I do agree this being such a "big" episode, they should have gotten an experienced director to bring it home, but with this writing duo I'm not sure it's was entirely a directing problem. I just showered, so I'm gonna stay away from the acting chops right now, but I do think having Jensen direct this episode out of order might be a bigger problem here. In the past, Jensen's episodes have been one-offs so shooting out of order wasn't such a big deal. This being a very mythology-heavy episode, I think it hurt the story when they pulled it out of production order. It just seems like the first two episodes were just as listless and meandering because they were trying to line up with what was done here. I think it might have been a better choice to have Jensen direct the premiere or give him a one-off if they insisted on pulling it out of order. Too much important developments happened here and they hadn't figured out how they got here first, IMO.

 

And, I love Jensen, and I think he has a good eye and good instincts, but I'm not sure he's yet an experienced enough director for this sort of episode. There was a lot of build up and he kept the pace rolling for the most part, but then it just stopped. There was no payoff to all that tension. I was sure I missed a scene or two because it was so anti-climatic. All I kept thinking of was when the priest cured that demon, in the MoL film, there was a flash of light and I think some thunder too, to make it feel almost epic. Here, nothing but the black eyes morphing into his regular pretty greens.  I think this is when a more experienced director would have seen they needed something more than what was on the page to sell this moment. To take a phrase from Kim Manners about filming the scene where they crash into the bar and take on seven demons in The Magnificent Seven (not a direct quote here, but I think it's pretty close): I looked at this scene and thought this could be really silly if we don't pump it up and give it a lot of energy.

 

The only thing I'll say about Jensen's acting as Demon Dean--thank heavens he's back to his usual 5-pack-a-day voice than the 25-pack voice he was trying out. I had a hard time stifling the giggles whenever he talked in these first few episodes. Go ahead, I borrowed Hannibal's plastic murder suit, so launch those tomatoes if you want. ;)

 

 

ETA: Even though anticlimactic and anti-climatic sound similar, they do not mean the same thing and I was not referring to the lack of weather in the episode. Silly, silly me!

 

It's interesting that you bring up "Magnificent Seven" - I thought that was a terrible episode, one of the most anticlimactic of the series, and a huge mistake for the show. That scene didn't work for me either. It tells me that even Kim Manners couldn't save such material, so the director has limits.

 

I do agree that this should have been more than it was. I'm not sure how much to put on the director, because it likely would have seemed like Jensen was being some type of diva asking for more focus or bigger moments. Unfortunately the show's directors generally don't impress me so I don't even know who could have done it instead.

 

I didn't think the second episode was all that listless. Demon Dean was listless, which seemed to be the point, but everything else moved along at a fast clip and I thought they got most of the characterization and buildup right.

 

Even here, I thought the tension and emotion was there until the last 10 minutes, which just felt lethargic and like they wanted it done.

 

I think there's been a certain malaise in the show for many years - I guess because they have such a rigid formula - and it takes a lot to break it.

Seriously, that was it? We are done with Demon!Dean? Just like that, in an half assed procedure that consisted in injecting three syringes of sacred blood, and Dean saying one mean stuff to Sam? Well that better not be it, because that sucked. Where is the epicness of Meg's exorcism in Born Under a Bad Sign, Dean having to become Death, John's possession by Azazel...I had hope, but this episode squandered it. Oh well.

 

Wasn't Dean becoming Death just more emo angst and Death food jokes? I'm not sorry we skipped that this time.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Pete Martell

[Mcolleague]

It's interesting that you bring up "Magnificent Seven" - I thought that was a terrible episode, one of the most anticlimactic of the series, and a huge mistake for the show.

 

Agreed. I think Magnificent Seven is by far the worst season opener of the series. There's only so much even a great director like Kim Manners can do with a really crappy script.

 

I also thought the first couple of episodes this season were not bad, especially the second episode which I loved, and had generally really good reviews. I actually think the pacing this episode is better than the first two. The angels storyline was just too separate from Dean/Sam in those, which really messed with the urgency/momentum of the pacing IMO, and worked better in this episode because it was more integrated. If this is the end of demon Dean then I think the whole storyline was really rushed, not just the last 10 mins of this episode, and that it's a huge mistake and enormously squandered potential. If this is not the end of demon Dean, if the arc is going to be revisited, I think it makes sense to leave us unsatisfied now, only to have the big dramatic cathartic moments later when he is *cured for real*. I'm starting to lean towards this being the case, but you never know with this show. 

Edited October 24, 2014 by Mcolleague

[Pete Martell]

Same here. I kept waiting for Dean to pounce on Castiel because I couldn't quite believe that it was that simple.

 

Other thoughts: Demon!Dean sure was chatty during the meandering through the lair of letters. I'm guessing it was a homage to The Shining (never actually saw it) but I think it would have been entirely in character to use that famous line.

I also thought, Crowley sure is an idiot if during the curing, he could have gotten out of the cuffs. Unless this is purely a MoC-Demon kind of effect.

 

Agree with the assertion that Sam's way of rescue is less flashy but they could have done a much better job to show how it all happened. How is it that a few minutes in Mystery Spot show me exactly where Sam is at and what is happening and why it is happening and what's going on his head while with three very talky episodes (mostly taken up by Cole, a character I don't care about and Crowley, who has become way too "dumped-boyfriend" to feel in any sense impressive anymore).

Instead, I have to laboriously scramble it all together with cryptic phone calls, scenes taken out of context, (I still have no idea why Dean didn't just wake up, "boned" (yes, I'm twelve) Crowley and took off) because they like their bloody season-beginning flashbacks so damn much? Why is it so hard to do a linear progression from A to B? Why can't they just continue from the moment of the finale? Why do they think they have to sort of make-up for hiatus time?

 

Why am I still asking this after 9 years? It's obviously never going to change.

 

I actually felt like the show was fairly straightforward about Sam's thought processes and choices. They had the pointless confusion over Lester (I guess to show us Sam's darkness, which didn't really work because it wasn't that bad and these characters have been so "dark" multiple times over the years that most viewers likely don't care), but otherwise it was three episodes of Sam being fatigued and hurt but doggedly trying to get to Dean. Compared to many previous seasons, especially the last two seasons where Sam was often written as the Sphinx, I thought it was well-told.

 

"Mystery Spot" was mostly self-contained, even if larger issues were involved, so it's tough for me to compare that to anything else.

 

I don't think Dean had any particular need to be away from Crowley until Crowley began trying to control him.

 

My main problem with Crowley is that I just don't want to hear endless gay jokes. I didn't when it was Wincest. I didn't when it was Destiel. I don't now. Frankly, I find them embarrassing and borderline homophobic. I've seen some fans say Crowley is a bi or pan character and this is great, but as long as we only ever see him in this context when it's "bromance" jokes and weeping over photos, I don't care for it at all. 

 

I don't think Crowley has ever worked as the king. And now we are likely in for another power struggle and I don't care about that either. The moment where he took the angel's grace and stabbed her in the gut - that was a chilling moment that reminds me of what the character should be. Not all the comic relief. Have him as feral and dangerous. 

 

I wish they'd left Abaddon in charge of Hell and had Crowley as an independent operator.

[catrox14]

I think Crowley jokes about sexuality to make everyone as uncomfortable as possible. Which is an interesting thing about Dean. He never used sexuality as a weapon against Sam. He just went for family stuff and Sam insecurities.

[Pete Martell]

I think Crowley jokes about sexuality to make everyone as uncomfortable as possible. Which is an interesting thing about Dean. He never used sexuality as a weapon against Sam. He just went for family stuff and Sam insecurities.

 

I'm not talking about Crowley's comments as much as the tone of the rest of the stuff, like him weeping over photos and all the rest. I just feel like we've moved past all this lolgay.

[catrox14]

I'm not talking about Crowley's comments as much as the tone of the rest of the stuff, like him weeping over photos and all the rest. I just feel like we've moved past all this lolgay.

OH I don't think that was intended as lolgay at all. I thought it was just showing Crowley missing his BFF.

[Mulva]

Once again Sam is portrayed as the worst of the worst while Dean's actions are whitewashed. Deamon!Dean was no different from regular Dean and his demonic actions consisted of butchering bad songs while we're told that Sam is EVIL!11! because he told Sleazy!Lester about crossroad demons.

Never mind that Sam didn't put the desire for revenge into Lester's mind and that he tried to stop Lester from making the deal, and that Lester knew damn well what he was doing, it's all Sam's fault and he's worse than the guy who tried to beat him to death while being human enough to walk out of a devil's trap.

I'd just like to see some balance for a change.

[DittyDotDot]

I didn't think the second episode was all that listless. Demon Dean was listless, which seemed to be the point, but everything else moved along at a fast clip and I thought they got most of the characterization and buildup right.

 

I felt like the second episode was a rehash of the first. More scenes of Dean and Crowley sitting in bars talking about how the Mark needed to be fed and breaking up, again. More scenes of Cass and Hannah meandering around the countryside. More scenes of Cole looking for Dean and following Sam to find him.  I could've easily imagined these two episodes being condensed into one. Cut out the repetitive scenes and there's really only one episode of movement here, IMO. Personally, I didn't feel any buildup at all.

 

ETA: Funnily, I could also easily imagine this episode being broken into two and feel like it really needed to be.

Edited October 24, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

Once again Sam is portrayed as the worst of the worst while Dean's actions are whitewashed. Deamon!Dean was no different from regular Dean and his demonic actions consisted of butchering bad songs while we're told that Sam is EVIL!11! because he told Sleazy!Lester about crossroad demons.

Never mind that Sam didn't put the desire for revenge into Lester's mind and that he tried to stop Lester from making the deal, and that Lester knew damn well what he was doing, it's all Sam's fault and he's worse than the guy who tried to beat him to death while being human enough to walk out of a devil's trap.

I'd just like to see some balance for a change.

 

demon!Dean called Sam a monster but "Hello...demon!", he's going for whatever makes Sam FEEL the worst to get him to react and put c***** in his armor. That doesn't make it true.

 

Does anyone really care that Sam used the guy that wanted to kill his wife to summon a demon? I really really don't. Lester chose to make a deal. That's not really on Sam. I do think Sam probably made a mistake with the deal with Crowley but that remains to be seen. Nor does it make him make him stupid or a monster. Heck Sam might have his own plan up his sleeve. He might not be trusting that Dean is 100% Dean again. But it's Crowley so all bets are off. 

 

Does anyone really care that Dean killed the guy that hired a hitman to kill his wife because she dare to cheat on him? I sure don't.  Lester willingly took the deal. He could have backed out at any time. Sure Sam set the ball rolling with the summoning spell to lure out a demon to find Crowley but no one put a gun to Lester's head to make him do it. And worse yet, he wanted to WATCH his wife be murdered. That's all manner of fucked up. If Dean had killed the wife, that would be a problem.

 

 

--We don't know what kind of repercussions are down the road for Dean. We already have him on a security video murdering a guy. That isn't going to just go away. That was demon!Dean to Sam and Cas but to the rest of the police world that's Dean Winchester. I don't think we've seen the last of that. Anne Marie and others have witnessed Dean beating the shit out of people. Again that's criminal offenses that I don't think will go away for Dean.

 

-- We haven't gotten any insight into what Cas and Dean think about Sam's actions. Demon!Dean used Sam's actions against him but I don't think what Sam did is really all that bad personally. My speculation

is that both Sam and Dean could end up on conspiracy to commit murder and murder chargers for Lester's death and for guy in the Gas N Sip.

 

--Dean tried to kill Sam. I don't think that fallout is over either. I think that's why Sam got the hell out of the bunker on the guise of getting food for Dean. He has to process that shit.

 

--I'm not 100% convinced we've seen the last of demon!Dean or what kinds of shitty things he did that we didn't see on screen. But please show, do not let there be any rapey stuff even with demon!Dean.  That's a bridge too far. 

 

So yeah way too early for the Poor Sam vs Poor Dean Has It Worse Game IMO