Beth: You're going to miss me when I'm gone...

[Nashville]

The moral of Beth's death: Don't bring scissors to a gunfight.

Maybe that should be the new tag line for this forum. :)

[BrokenRemote]

Maybe that should be the new tag line for this forum. :)

Seconded.  All in favor?

[HalcyonDays]

You guys want to change the title again? C'mon, I thought the "You're gonna miss me when I'm gone" was so apropros... *grin*

 

If a few more want it changed, just say so and it will be done.

[ghoulina]

I like them both, but the current one is just so ironic (since most of us DON'T miss her) that I tend to prefer keeping it the way it is. Sorry, guys! =)

[walnutqueen]

I'm one of the few, but I think the line is iconic, as it was said to Daryl and we have yet to see whether it will come true.  I say keep it.

[Nashville]

Seconded.  All in favor?

I appreciate the second, but I was joking. :)

[maplebrew]

"Don't Bring Scissors to a Gun Fight" is inspired but I like the current title. Whether we miss Beth is clearly a hot discussion on this thread. 

 

Edited to delete my possibly and accidental provocative next comment.

Edited February 6, 2015 by maplebrew

[GreyBunny]

Change it!  I haven't missed her since she's been gone.  

 

Don't bring scissors to a gunfight should be on Beth's headstone.  Utterly fitting.

[Ocean Chick]

Well, someone may miss Beth.  But Dawn's gun sure didn't.

 

::Ba dump dump::

 

I'll be here all week.  Please don't forget to tip your waitress.

[Watcher0363]

Beth Greene

Enough Said!!!!!!!!!!!

[GreyBunny]

Watching "Inmates" tonight, it's a lovely reminder how annoying and stupid Beth is and what a crap actress EK is, even her fake crying is ridiculous.  Daryl should have let that walker have Beth for lunch.

"We're not going to die, none of us."  Oh, Beth, you're going to be dead in less than two weeks.

Edited February 8, 2015 by GreyBunny

[Nashville]

When attacked, most people respond one of four ways:

1. Fight.  Attack that which is attacking you.  Best defense is a strong offense.
2. Flight.  Run, Forrest, run!
3. Freeze.  Works great if you're being pursued by a Tyrannosaurus Rex - but walkers?  Not so much.
4. Instant victim.  Curl up in a ball, scream, and hope someone rescues you.

 

#1 and #2 offer you your best survival potential.

#3 can work in certain specific situations.

#4 may not be totally worthless, depending upon who's in earshot; it's an extremely negative option, however.  You don't just jeopardize yourself, you extend jeopardy to any would-be rescuer(s).  Also, the screaming is just as likely to attract more predators as it is rescuers.

 

It wasn't until re-watching "Inmates" I realized just how much Beth was the penultimate poster child for Option #4.  How many times in just this one episode did we see Beth standing knife in hand acting like she was actually going to DO something - only to get grabbed by a walker and respond NOT by using the knife, NOT by trying to get away, but by tucking her arms in tight to her sides and screaming until Daryl saved her?  I'd have left her for lunch.  I HATE Automatic Victims.  Useful as a screen door on a submarine.

 

Rant's over now.  We now return you to our regular program of dining and dance music.

[walnutqueen]

When attacked, most people respond one of four ways:

1. Fight.  Attack that which is attacking you.  Best defense is a strong offense.
2. Flight.  Run, Forrest, run!
3. Freeze.  Works great if you're being pursued by a Tyrannosaurus Rex - but walkers?  Not so much.
4. Instant victim.  Curl up in a ball, scream, and hope someone rescues you.

 

#1 and #2 offer you your best survival potential.

#3 can work in certain specific situations.

#4 may not be totally worthless, depending upon who's in earshot; it's an extremely negative option, however.  You don't just jeopardize yourself, you extend jeopardy to any would-be rescuer(s).  Also, the screaming is just as likely to attract more predators as it is rescuers.

 

It wasn't until re-watching "Inmates" I realized just how much Beth was the penultimate poster child for Option #4.  How many times in just this one episode did we see Beth standing knife in hand acting like she was actually going to DO something - only to get grabbed by a walker and respond NOT by using the knife, NOT by trying to get away, but by tucking her arms in tight to her sides and screaming until Daryl saved her?  I'd have left her for lunch.  I HATE Automatic Victims.  Useful as a screen door on a submarine.

 

Rant's over now.  We now return you to our regular program of dining and dance music.

 

How many times in just this one episode?  Not as many as you seem to think; actually only once in Inmates (and that didn't go down quite as you described it, either)  - because I just watched it, too.  First encounter she tries to shoot a walker in the face, gun doesn't fire, Daryl shoots an arrow.  Second encounter the walker grabs her upper arms from behind, she struggles (albeit weakly), Daryl pulls him off and they fall to the ground - and Beth stabs the walker in the head.  Third encounter Daryl shoots a bunch of feeding walker; Beth cries after the fact, having seen the people they were feeding on.  Funny how perceptions are colored by our own likes & dislikes, isn't it?  :-)

[kikismom]

Of course, one could be confusing it with the time her walker mother grabbed her and she stayed kneeling waiting for the guys to pull her off screaming Eeeaah! or the time Patricia got bit and she stood helpless screaming Eeeaah!  or the golf shop/ country club or the woods or the--oh, sorry, not to be confused with when she is not being attacked but being sad such as when she slit one wrist and stood stiff and cried E!E!E!A!AH!  or she watched the barn massacre and cried E!E!E!A!AH!  or when she saw her dad beheaded and stood crying E!E!E!A!AH! so on & so forth& etc.

[walnutqueen]

Yes, and I believe all I was doing was clearing up a particular point of confusion, since it related quite specifically to the episode "Inmates", which I happened to be watching at the time.   I'd have to go back and rewatch the scenes you describe, but I don't own the DVDs or a DVD player, so I'll have to wait for the next marathon and pay closer attention to the minutae.  Oh, hell, why even bother?  Everyone's perception is theirs to own; I just want to enjoy the show!   :-)

[SometimesBites]

Watching "Inmates" tonight, it's a lovely reminder how annoying and stupid Beth is and what a crap actress EK is, even her fake crying is ridiculous.  Daryl should have let that walker have Beth for lunch.

"We're not going to die, none of us."  Oh, Beth, you're going to be dead in less than two weeks.

Oh yes, Beth is still so very, very dead.

 

(PS: Every time EK "cried" in this show I wanted to climb the drapes. Like my parents used to say, "Knock it off, or I'll GIVE you something to cry about!")

Edited February 9, 2015 by NewBaku

[SoSueMe]

I appreciate the second, but I was joking. :)

I'm watching Slabtown now on the marathon. 

 

Don't you mean jokin' ?

 

Worst cheater Southern accent ever, just drop your 'G's.

Edited February 8, 2015 by SoSueMe

[Nashville]

I'm watch Slabtown now on the marathon. 

 

Don't you mean jokin' ?

 

Worst cheater Southern accent ever, just drop your 'G's.

 

I am an educated Southerner (and no, that's not an oxymoron), which means you spell it correctly - it's just when you pronounce it the Gs are silent.  ;)

[SoSueMe]

I am an educated Southerner (and no, that's not an oxymoron), which means you spell it correctly - it's just when you pronounce it the Gs are silent.  ;)

Then there are the 'educated Northerners' like me who omit the ing entirely, ha ha.

[walnutqueen]

And then there are those of us West Coasters who think it's all cool, eh.  :-)

[Nashville]

Second encounter the walker grabs her upper arms from behind, she struggles (albeit weakly), Daryl pulls him off and they fall to the ground - and Beth stabs the walker in the head. 

 

What struggle?  When the walker grabbed Beth she tucked her arms in, elbows tight at her sides, hands in front of her chest (including the hand holding the knife), hunched her shoulders, dropped her chin to her chest and screamed.  If her knees had buckled, she would've been in full fetal position.  She didn't stab the walker until it was off her and on top of Daryl - Daryl's reward for coming to the rescue.

 

I've see baby birds with better survival instincts.

[walnutqueen]

What struggle?  When the walker grabbed Beth she tucked her arms in, elbows tight at her sides, hands in front of her chest (including the hand holding the knife), hunched her shoulders, dropped her chin to her chest and screamed.  If her knees had buckled, she would've been in full fetal position.  She didn't stab the walker until it was off her and on top of Daryl - Daryl's reward for coming to the rescue.

 

I've see baby birds with better survival instincts.

 

 I spent many years rescuing and feeding baby birds - try another analogy, please.  And my point was directed at the "how many times in THIS episode" part of the rant.  Beth had her knife, and did eventually use it, if only once, when it counted ('cause - Daryl!).

[NoWillToResist]

When the walker grabbed Beth she tucked her arms in, elbows tight at her sides, hands in front of her chest (including the hand holding the knife), hunched her shoulders, dropped her chin to her chest and screamed. 

 

Why wouldn't the walker have chomped on the back of her neck? Or did Daryl arrive just before it could?

 

Seems to me that the reverse action (slamming your head BACK) might incapacitate the walker enough to get away. But why expose the back of your neck? Of course, this commentary is occurring in the calm light of day in a zombie free environment, so I think I can forgive a young girl from buckling and panicking, causing the default flinch away from the bad thing. :)

[Nashville]

Why wouldn't the walker have chomped on the back of her neck? Or did Daryl arrive just before it could?

 

Maybe even he was surprised at the lack of defense.

Or - ever get confused looking at the wide variety of a buffet, not knowing where to start?  Option overload.  ;>

[RainOnToosdays]

I think they're supposed to be half-sisters, Hershel is father to both girls. But the writers, as per usual, were very careless with the details, so that when you add it all up it makes little sense. 

 

Beth's age has always been rather ambiguous, as has her familial spot in the Greene dynamics. 

 

Don't know what episode it was (been binge-watching with everyone else this weekend so harder than usual to keep episodes straight) but Maggie, in talking to Herschel, clearly says she was 14 years old when he remarried. If the general consensus - that Beth is Herschel's bio daughter by his second wife and Maggie's half-sister - is true then that would make Maggie at least 14 yrs older than Beth (because I think we can safely assume that Herschel would not have had a child (Beth) out of wedlock, which would have had to happen for Beth to be his bio daughter and be closer in age than 14 years to her half-sister Maggie).

 

Someone up-thread said that while on the farm Maggie told Glen she was 22. Which would make Beth 8 at the very oldest when we viewers first met her, assuming the 14 year age difference. Which we know isn't the case as Beth looked to be around 16 then. Other posters have said with certainty that Beth was 16 when we first met her, making for a 6 year age difference between her and Maggie. Which doesn't mesh with the first paragraph above. 

Also, in the moonshine-drinking cabin-burning episode, Beth mentions a brother (Sean?) to Daryl, says he was a typical over-protective older brother. (I had NO idea until the re-watch today that there was a third Green sibling!) I don't recall Herschel ever mourning the loss of a son? Or Maggie the loss of a brother? 

 

So we have Maggie, Beth, and Sean. Full blood siblings? Half siblings (one parent in common with another)? Step-siblings (related only by marriage)? Bio kids or step kids to Herschel? Who knows. I don't think the age & relationships mess was intended, there is enough going on in TWD without the writers needing to throw in complicated family dynamics for no good reason, so I think it's just an oversight in scripting for so many different characters that they maybe didn't know what they would eventually do with. But we as viewers need to know who's related to who and how so we make up our own scenerios. Here's mine:

 

Maggie is the bio daughter of Herschel and Wife #1. 

Wife #1 dies while Maggie is still young leaving Herschel alone to raise Maggie. Thus the very strong bond between Maggie and Herschel and her angst at him remarrying. 

When Maggie is 14 Herschel marries Wife #2, who already has a son of her own, Sean. This makes Sean only a step-son to Herschel and step-sister to Maggie. 

Herschel and Wife #2 have Beth. This makes Beth Herschel's bio daughter, Maggie's half-sister, and Sean's half sister. 

 

I think that supposition works for everything we have seen on the show as far as who is grieving or not grieving for who and who is calling who what so the 14-year age difference that would make between Maggie & Beth is just an unintentioned accident of the script writing. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. ;)

[walnutqueen]

And then there's the whole Maggie "my daddy stopped drinking the day I was born" vs Beth's "my daddy got thrown in the drunk tank" - the writers can't keep their own damned heads on straight.

[Bongo Fury]

Beth's age has always been rather ambiguous, as has her familial spot in the Greene dynamics. 

 

Here's a site called the walking dead wiki, and what they have to say aboutHerschell's family:

 

http://walkingdead.wikia.com/wiki/Hershel_Greene_(TV_Series)

 

I'm not saying it's right, but I've read it and it makes sense of all the tidbits of info we have been given.

[Nashville]

And then there's the whole Maggie "my daddy stopped drinking the day I was born" vs Beth's "my daddy got thrown in the drunk tank" - the writers can't keep their own damned heads on straight.

 

"My daddy got thrown in the drunk tank" and "I remember when my daddy got thrown in the drunk tank" are two different things.  Beth could simply be relating one of the old family stories, and not speaking from personal memory.

[walnutqueen]

Sure she could.  And that would explain nothing about the Greene family timeline, genealogy or mystery brother.

[CletusMusashi]

And then there's the whole Maggie "my daddy stopped drinking the day I was born" vs Beth's "my daddy got thrown in the drunk tank" - the writers can't keep their own damned heads on straight.

Maybe he stopped more than once. Or, simply fell off the wagon once, hard. And maybe Beth was around that weekend but Maggie wasn't.

[GreyBunny]

 I spent many years rescuing and feeding baby birds - try another analogy, please.  

 

I did baby bird rescue too and those tiny baby birds had better fight instincts than Beth.  

 

Why wouldn't the walker have chomped on the back of her neck?.

 

Hehehe, if she managed to stay alive she'd better hope she didn't travel far enough west to run into a mountain lion.  They go right for the back of the neck and she presented a prime target.

Edited February 9, 2015 by GreyBunny

[walnutqueen]

I did baby bird rescue too and, yes, those tiny baby birds had better fight instincts than Beth.  

 

Other than popping their mouths open for anything that moved near their "nest", and pooping over the edge of same, I'd say they had the same survival instincts as all infants.  Rarely a "fight" in any species.  But baby barn owls make quite the intimidating hissy pissy noise.  Tiny wrens & bush tits were the feistiest, earliest, but until they fledged ... not so much.  :-)

[Nashville]

Here's a site called the walking dead wiki, and what they have to say aboutHerschell's family:

 

http://walkingdead.wikia.com/wiki/Hershel_Greene_(TV_Series)

 

I'm not saying it's right, but I've read it and it makes sense of all the tidbits of info we have been given.

 

The site puts forth a couple of interesting points of discussion:

1. Herschel's first wife, Josephine, was Maggie's mother.
2. Maggie was 6 when Beth was born.
3. Maggie was also 6 when Herschel remarried , to Annette.
4. Annette brought into the Greene family not only herself, but "a newborn son named Shawn from a previous marriage."
5. Beth refers to Shawn as an "older brother."

 

These timings are wonky, to say the least - not surprising in a wiki.

 

Question for discussion: was it ever specifically stated that Annette was Beth's biological mother?  Or is it possible Josephine died giving birth to Beth?

[ghoulina]

No, it wasn't stated and I've always thought the first wife was mom to both girls. But Beth, being so young when Hershel remarried, became a lot closer to Annette and ended up calling her mom. I can see that being more logical than Maggie being FOURTEEN years older than Beth. 

 

As for Sean, I could have sworn I heard Hershel refer to him as his '"stepson". That was the one familial aspect that was always clear to me. Sean was Annette's from a previous marriage.

[Pete Martell]

I liked Beth and I was glad to see her one last time, at peace, but I burst out laughing when she started singing. I swear that was straight up trolling on the part of the producers.

[Mu Shu]

No Beth lover here, but I was annoyed by how last nights episode just moved on like she never got her brains blowed out. Shit, we spent a whole episode watching Sgt Moobs kneel in the dirt having a breakdown. Don't tell me they'll reference it at a later date, because the impact is now lost. Damn, it seems Bethily was indeed not popular at all.

[Pete Martell]

I think we'll hear more of it soon enough. We barely saw Maggie or Daryl, the two people who will likely talk about her most. We saw Rick, Glenn, Michonne, and Noah talk about her. 

[lulee]

After such a crappy death, I'm glad for the character and Emily Kinney that Beth got one more episode, but I laughed when I thought of this thread title. How can we miss you if you won't go away!?!

[HalcyonDays]

Yeah, I noticed that about the injury. Everyone else was shown with their major injuries, but no head shot for Beth? They could've simply put red crusty blood on her forehead and in her hair for effect.

 

I did laugh at her singing with the guitar. Oh show, why do you do this. She wasn't annoying this episode though.

..................

 

It seems like the majority want the thread title left as is, so I'll leave it for now. I don't know, I just like the irony and like lulee said, "how can I miss you if you won't go away!"

[BrokenRemote]

They did put some red blood on Beth's forehead, at least when she first showed up--I noticed she had the stitched-up cheek and then some wet-looking red blood on her forehead. I remember thinking it wasn't enough to look like it was from her fatal gunshot wound, but I couldn't think what else it was meant to be from.

 

It was killing me how Judith's distraught wail ringing out from the prison walls was dubbed over top of Beth's singing.  That had to be intentional, didn't it?

 

(BTW, I wasn't serious about the name change, either.  I go to a lot of meetings that use Robert's Rules of Order, where every time someone says something, no matter how out there it is someone will jump in before the next breath with "Seconded" and a vote is immediately taken.  I think it was more funny in my head! :D  My response was more of a way to acknowledge how funny the idea was, but I'm not really needing the thread title changed, honestly.)

Edited February 9, 2015 by BrokenRemote

[BrokenRemote]

I'm thinking through all the character deaths, and I really can't think of one that was deliberately dwelled on in the next episode.  It's always seemed to me that there was silent sadness, small moments of individuals impacted, but that the group is so close to death that there has never been time to do more than dig a hole, say a few words and move on.   I don't think Beth's death will or should be any different.  We've seen Maggie on the ground sobbing her eyes out twice, which is more than Hershel got, or Shane, or T-dog, or Dale, or Sofia, or Andrea. (Lori got one shot of Rick sobbing his eyes out, and although she did get his crazy hallucinations, they were not just about her but everyone he'd lost so far and he is arguably the star of the show).  If there's crying, it's right after the death (as we saw with Maggie, Rick after Lori, Carol after Sofia came out of the barn) and then it's only brought back up in tiny moments interspersed with the rest of the storylines.  

 

I'm curious what people would have wanted as fallout from Beth's death in the episode right after, and maybe what they'd have wanted for other characters' death fallouts (although I may take that second part to the RIP thread...)

Edited February 9, 2015 by BrokenRemote

[GreyBunny]

I posted this in the episode thread but it has relevance here:

It is 17 days later and the characters kept bringing up Beth, even Martin (who never met her or even knew about her in life) during one of Tyreese's hallucinations. Taking Noah to Shirewilt was their way of honoring her. Plus she appeared herself as a hallucination as someone Tyreese had unfinished business dealing with (he blamed himself for the hospital negotiation going bad, Noah tried to console him). I think Beth got plenty of attention and we did see some emotional fallout - Tyreese's angst, Maggie crying, Noah moping and talking about her, Rick determined to carry out Beth's last wish, Glenn's angst, etc. At least she was last seen driving Tyreese to some hallucinatory afterworld, the best Hershel got was being a zombie head that had to be put out of its misery by Michonne.

[NoWillToResist]

I was surprised at the people who went on the 'take Noah home' mission if it was to honour Beth's last wishes. Why on Earth wasn't Daryl there? You'd think he and Maggie would have been front and centre on that mission. Were they both just too broken up to function? How was Glenn convinced to leave Maggie in her grief?

 

I did appreciate that Rick acknowledged that Dawn didn't mean to shoot Beth. It bugged me that Beth's attack (which led to her death) was conspicuously absent in the 'previously on' segment. Way to paint Dawn as Beth's cold blooded murderer. Sheesh.

 

Clever little red herring re: the grave site. I figured it was Beth's...(as I was presumably meant to).

 

I think EK has a pretty voice but I was giggling at hearing her sing that she was a struggling man (or whatever the lyrics were).

[AngelaHunter]

I was surprised at the people who went on the 'take Noah home' mission if it was to honour Beth's last wishes. Why on Earth wasn't Daryl there? You'd think he and Maggie would have been front and centre on that mission. Were they both just too broken up to function? How was Glenn convinced to leave Maggie in her grief?

 

x2 on all of that.

[TallulahBelle]

It's been a couple of weeks since Beth died (17 days in fact), and quite frankly, if I was Rick and going on a mission and leaving my daughter and son behind, then Carol and Daryl are the people I would want staying behind to look after them.  It made perfect sense to me that he took Michonne and Glenn in that scenario, take two badasses with you and leave two behind to protect the rest.  We're clearly going to see more of Maggie mourning her sister (and Sasha her brother), as well as the rest of the group devastated at having lost Bob, Beth and Tyreese in what, a month?  Then also having lost Hersel, the prison, Lizzie and Mika etc as well - this has all happened to them in a couple of months - they're ALL going to be walking automatons.

[Nashville]

I was surprised at the people who went on the 'take Noah home' mission if it was to honour Beth's last wishes.

 

Groups need a common goal to maintain cohesion.  With the get-Eugene-to-Washington mission defunct and the rescue-Beth-and-Carol mission finishing so badly, CDB needed an achievable short-term goal to focus on while they finished processing what happened at Grady.  The get-Noah-home mission gave them such a short-term goal, with an eye toward advancing them to their ultimate goal - finding a permanent settling-down place which promises long-term safety and security.

[NoWillToResist]

It's been a couple of weeks since Beth died (17 days in fact), and quite frankly, if I was Rick and going on a mission and leaving my daughter and son behind, then Carol and Daryl are the people I would want staying behind to look after them.  It made perfect sense to me that he took Michonne and Glenn in that scenario, take two badasses with you and leave two behind to protect the rest. 

 

But what's the narrative reason for why Tyreese went instead of Maggie? Tyreese left his grieving sister behind? And I have trouble accepting that apparently two weeks after her sister's death, Maggie was all, "no, no, go and fulfill Beth's dying wish without me. Take my husband too. I'll just wait here."

 

Carol is both badass and babysitter, so I understood her staying back and looking after Judith (and Carl). Sasha's no slouch either. But I don't understand Daryl staying behind rather than helping his bestie Rick and honouring Beth's last wishes.

 

I feel dumb for asking this but...was it stated that 17 days had passed? I presume *some* time must have elapsed since Beth's body is nowhere to be found and they're suddenly taking Noah home, but...just over two weeks? I totally didn't hear any reference to a time line in the episode.

Groups need a common goal to maintain cohesion.  With the get-Eugene-to-Washington mission defunct and the rescue-Beth-and-Carol mission finishing so badly, CDB needed an achievable short-term goal to focus on while they finished processing what happened at Grady.  The get-Noah-home mission gave them such a short-term goal, with an eye toward advancing them to their ultimate goal - finding a permanent settling-down place which promises long-term safety and security.

 

 The mission itself didn't bother me at all; it was the people chosen for the mission that puzzled me.

[Pete Martell]

Greg Nicotero said it had been 17 days (on Talking Dead).

 

I thought Daryl might have been too upset to go, and was looking after Carol.

 

Does anyone thing of the "Cups" song every time they see the thread title? 

[NoWillToResist]

Greg Nicotero said it had been 17 days (on Talking Dead).

 

FFS, are they allergic to putting this info in the show?  *grumbles*

[lulee]

FFS, are they allergic to putting this info in the show?  *grumbles*

Yes, adding a line like, "It took us 17 days to get this far." would have caused violent allergic reactions from the actors, rendering them unable to do appropirate accents.