Sansa Stark: A Direwolf In Sheep's Clothing?

[GodsBeloved]

1 hour ago, screamin said:

Honestly, I think she really meant what she said when she said she was worried that the men in her family don't fare well in the south. Presumably Jon told her that Dany knew that he was the true heir to the Iron Throne - but Dany's totally all right with that as long as he doesn't want the throne, really! I don't think Sansa would believe that any more than Dany believed that Sansa would be indifferent to the news that Jon was the heir. A person with a better title and claim to the throne than the actual monarch is always in some danger.

This reminds me of what Sansa said to Jon before the BoTB. Rickon, Ned's last living true born son, was a threat to Ramsey and that was why they would never get him back.

Jon is the true born son so I can see why she would be worried. Telling Tyrion and assuming he would spread the word reminds me of what Stannis did. He said Ned only told him about Joffery being Jaime's bastard son but he wasn't going to be like Ned. He made sure the word got out.

Edited May 9, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[Umbelina]

28 minutes ago, GraceK said:

No she doesn’t. Sansa is irrelevant. Jon already bent the knee. Sansa isn’t queen of the north. Sansa isn’t anything but lady of Winterfell. Dany doesn’t need Sansa to “ bend the knee” because Jon already did it. The fandom is acting like Jon betrayed Sansa, or went behind her back, like she’s his wife or something. She’s not. She has the Vale, sure, for plot purposes, but the North chose Jon over her to be their King. They are loyal to him. And he bent the knee to Daenarys, and promised that once the war for the dawn was over, the North would fight with her to overthrow Cersei . He pledged fealty to Dany.

"Bend the knee" is metaphorical not literal.

Also, there is a little detail, the North voted/confirmed Jon as King thinking that he was Ned's bastard.  Sansa now knows the he isn't, and he certainly is not the rightful heir to Winterfell anymore either.  He's a Targ.

Now, they might confirm him anyway, but I doubt it, in spite of his bravery, it would be a tough pill to swallow.  

I think most of the North might stand with Sansa, especially on the independence from the South thing, no matter who takes the throne.  (but I've always thought there would be no throne at the end)  They've been through hell, and they fought the army of the dead with NO help from the south, I doubt the want any part of it.

"The North Remembers" is their slogan, I'm sure they remember the nightmare of Targ rule as well.  Right now, they have reason to ally with Dany, to defeat Cersei.  When that's over?

Things might change.

I mean dragons might be "cool" when they are on your side, but after that?  Not so desirable.
 

Edited May 9, 2019 by Umbelina

[GraceK]

5 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

"Bend the knee" is metaphorical not literal.

Also, there is a little detail, the North voted/confirmed Jon as King thinking that he was Ned's bastard.  Sansa now knows the he isn't, and he certainly is not the rightful heir to Winterfell anymore either.  He's a Targ.

Now, they might confirm him anyway, but I doubt it, in spite of his bravery, it would be a tough pill to swallow.  

I think most of the North might stand with Sansa, especially on the independence from the South thing, no matter who takes the throne.  (but I've always thought there would be no throne at the end)  They've been through hell, and they fought the army of the dead with NO help from the south, I doubt the want any part of it.

"The North Remembers" is their slogan, I'm sure they remember the nightmare of Targ rule as well.  Right now, they have reason to ally with Dany, to defeat Cersei.  When that's over?

Things might change.

I mean dragons might be "cool" when they are on your side, but after that?  Not so desirable.
 

?? You didn’t respond to anything I wrote in my post. 

The “ North Remembers” is irrelevant on the show. Apparently, only house Mormont remembered. And that was due to Davos convincing Lyanna. She didn’t like Sansa at all, or Jon really at first. And then it was Jon she fought for. Karstark and Umber betrayed them, and turned over the trueborn son of Ned Stark and murdered his wolf, which would never happen in the books. And what nightmare of Targ rule? People keep saying this, but it’s FALSE!!!!! Aerys was bad, yes. But that was later in his reign. There were plenty of Targs before him who were good . And Rhaegar was set to be a good King. People were looking forward  to his reign. Cersei was in love with him. There were years of peace. Apparently everyone forgets that and just remembers Roberts Rebellion and the Mad King. 🙄 also, when Robert took over, he changed nothing. He kept all of the Targaryen rule in place. The Kingsguard, even the same people. He pardoned pretty much everyone involved. He made no real changes. The only thing that changed was himself as King, his hand, etc. otherwise, all systems of Targaryen Rule remained the same.

[Advance35]

Quote

Couldn't Dany just kick her out of winterfell and marry her off to Gendry if she pleases?  Dany is also capable of burning her to a crisp for defiance.  Jon isn't. 

This episode showed us how Powerless Sansa will be under a Dany regime.  "Oh Jon, I've never begged for anything but I'm begging you, make Sansa send more armed forces to the south."

Jon to Sansa: The Northern Forces will go south as the Queen commands.

"Oh Jon, I've never begged for anything but I'm begging you, make Sansa send additional provisions, I want them from the North."

Jon to Sansa: The North will send more provisions, the Queen wants them from the North."

Reasonable or not, The Dragon Queen must get her way.  I would have sabotaged her Council too.

Waiting until Cersei's death would be way too late. She needed to set the sabotage wheels in motion.

Edited May 9, 2019 by Advance35

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, screamin said:

But the Vale in supporting Sansa and helping kill Ramsey is in already in open rebellion against Cersei. The Vale has food, men and wealth - the North might be able to cobble an alliance of independents together against Cersei. 

True--basically, whatever their current situation is under Cersei, it remains the same under Cersei.

2 hours ago, GraceK said:

No she doesn’t. Sansa is irrelevant. Jon already bent the knee. Sansa isn’t queen of the north. Sansa isn’t anything but lady of Winterfell. Dany doesn’t need Sansa to “ bend the knee” because Jon already did it. The fandom is acting like Jon betrayed Sansa, or went behind her back, like she’s his wife or something. She’s not. She has the Vale, sure, for plot purposes, but the North chose Jon over her to be their King. They are loyal to him. And he bent the knee to Daenarys, and promised that once the war for the dawn was over, the North would fight with her to overthrow Cersei . He pledged fealty to Dany.

lso, the North isn’t fighting Dany or Jon on any of this. After the battle of Winterfell, they are pretty ok with Daenerys. It’s only Sansa who has a problem. It’s Sansa who is power hungry, and is insisting on “ Northern Independence “ for her own sake. Which is bullshit, because she has it. Tyrion pretty much tells her that she is the power in the North, that  Jon down south leaves her in control. Dany in love with Jon, destroying Cersei, leaves her in an extremely powerful and safe position in the North. 

Her telling Tyrion about Jon’s parentage shows her true desire, that she wants POWER. It’s the not the North she cares about. She wants her brother/cousin on the throne, ruling the seven kingdoms, and herself in a position of power and influence so no one can ever fuck with her again. That’s why she hates Daenerys, because she has everything Sansa wants. Sansa is literally Cersei 2.0 this season, using the men in her life to gain power for herself and trying to destroy the women around her. Tommen and Margery anyone???

The fact that Jon bent the knee doesn't mean nobody can try to work anything about about the North's position. There's plenty of evidence that the North would prefer to be independent so it's not like Sansa's attitude is shown to be going against what they want. Isn't that one of the sticking points, that the North isn't friendly enough to Dany?

Sansa *asks* Dany for Northern Independence. She asks Dany, as the future queen, what her plans for the North are and Dany clearly doesn't want the question. Jon thinks it's great to have Dany as Queen of all 7 kingdoms and Sansa doesn't. All her actions and even a lot of her complaints seem to me to be clearly part of a desire to have the North be independent, whether it's asking Dany what the North can expect once she's on the throne and saying they'd prefer to be independent or suggesting Jon as an alternate ruler, one who might give the North freedom.

If the idea was Sansa as Cersei 2.0 she ought to be Little Fingering her way around the North, making alliances as whispering in the ears of the Northerners. Instead she's being totally open about Northern Independence and Northern interests and that's it. If she's planning to get the North independent and then get rid of Jon so she's the Queen in the North that's not in the show yet.

[screamin]

4 hours ago, GraceK said:

also, the North isn’t fighting Dany or Jon on any of this. After the battle of Winterfell, they are pretty ok with Daenerys. It’s only Sansa who has a problem. 

Tormund's a Northerner, with no problem talking up Jon's dragonriding prowess and kingship in front of Dany. Yes, he's a wildling with no sense of tact and no allegiance to any monarch who doesn't win his own kingdom by wildling combat, but he's cheered a lot by others at the party. Not to mention Jon himself looks smug at the compliment and stays silent instead of turning to give gentlemanly credit to the woman who taught him to ride, who sits to one side feeling obviously devalued and ignored. (I still wish that there were some ambitious part of Jon that subconsciously was doing this sort of thing on purpose to maneuver closer to power. A conflicted schemer can be interesting - an man who does this sort of assholish thing over and over out of sheer obliviousness is just a schmuck).

4 hours ago, GraceK said:

Tyrion pretty much tells her that she is the power in the North, that  Jon down south leaves her in control. Dany in love with Jon, destroying Cersei, leaves her in an extremely powerful and safe position in the North. 

By the time Jon tells Sansa about the secret of his parentage, the whole 'in love' thing has already taken a serious hit. Jon has issues about continuing to have sex with his aunt. Dany's not going to stop being his aunt, and Jon is showing no particular disposition to get past that fact (like, say, checking with some maester about how permissable it is with dispensation to marry one's aunt).

Dany has issues about Jon's claim to her throne that's supposedly better than her own. Jon is more popular among the Westerosi she's met than she is; if he decides to announce his claim, that popularity and his possession of a penis can make a fight of it among sexist Westerosi - AND she's given him one of her own dragons. Dany ALSO has issues with Jon's reluctance to resume their romance. It's not just about not getting laid regularly that's the problem - the best assurance she has that Jon won't turn against her and make his own claim to the throne is that Jon loves her and wouldn't do that to her. Make their relationship into a celibate, impossible one? That assurance is gone.

And it goes both ways. WE know Jon wouldn't break fealty to Dany once he's given it. Sansa and Arya know it too. But they don't know Dany that well. They don't know whether she's honorable enough to refrain from ridding herself of a potential threat to her queenship like Jon and his claim are, even in the bitter aftermath of a love affair dissolving into cold angry suspicion.

Edited May 10, 2019 by screamin

[Indi]

13 hours ago, DigitalCount said:

She probably considers Cersei easier to beat than Dany.

I think she wants Dani and Jon to destroy Cersei, but also weaken Dani's claim to the throne a much as possible. Jon is a Targeryen, but he is Westerosi, part of her family and widely respected. From her point of view, it's a no brainer, who to chose.

[Bryce Lynch]

34 minutes ago, Indi said:

I think she wants Dani and Jon to destroy Cersei, but also weaken Dani's claim to the throne a much as possible. Jon is a Targeryen, but he is Westerosi, part of her family and widely respected. From her point of view, it's a no brainer, who to chose.

But, I don't see how an intelligent person could expect it to turn out that way.  Jon doesn't want the IT, Dany wants it desperately and they are in love.

Jon made Sansa swear an oath to never tell a soul and she immediately went behind his back to Tyrion and broke that oath.   Now Tyrion and Varys are plotting or at least discussing treason.

Both treason and oath breaking carry the death penalty.  Robb threatened to hang Greatjon Umber as an oath breaker.

I could see Sansa, Tyrion and Varys all being executed.

Even if her plan "works" and Dany is killed and Jon becomes King, I could see Jon executing her.  Olly was a brother of the NW and like a son to Jon, arguably closer to him than Sansa ever was, and he didn't hesitate to hang him for mutiny and murder.

Plus. she is stirring up all this strife before Cersei has been defeated, increasing the likelihood that Cersei will win.

[Eyes High]

7 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Jon made Sansa swear an oath to never tell a soul and she immediately went behind his back to Tyrion and broke that oath.   

Did she, though? Jon made her swear never to tell another soul. The marriage ceremony pronounced them "one flesh, one heart, one soul." So technically, she didn't actually break her oath.

[Bryce Lynch]

12 hours ago, Advance35 said:

This episode showed us how Powerless Sansa will be under a Dany regime.  "Oh Jon, I've never begged for anything but I'm begging you, make Sansa send more armed forces to the south."

Jon to Sansa: The Northern Forces will go south as the Queen commands.

"Oh Jon, I've never begged for anything but I'm begging you, make Sansa send additional provisions, I want them from the North."

Jon to Sansa: The North will send more provisions, the Queen wants them from the North."

Reasonable or not, The Dragon Queen must get her way.  I would have sabotaged her Council too.

Waiting until Cersei's death would be way too late. She needed to set the sabotage wheels in motion.

That is nonsense.  She begged Jon not to tell his sisters (especially Sansa) a secret that could destroy all of BOTH their plans.  Both Jon and Dany want Dany to be Queen.  If Jon thought Arya or Sansa would break their oaths, he would not have told them.

Once the war against Cersei, which benefits both Dany and the North, was won, Dany wouldn't need anything from the North.  It would be more likely that provisions would be flowing North, from The Reach, to Dany's beloved subjects and allies, in the North, who helped her defeat the NK and Cersei.   

She would also send troops to defend the North, if necessary, though right now with the Freefolk allies, the NK and his army destroyed and the Iron Born loyal to Dany, the North might be free from all threats for the foreseeable future.

The North was set up to be the most favored kingdom, with no enemies from the North or South with the prospect of unprecedented peace and prosperity.  But, Sansa Lannister-Bolton, out of her pettiness, insecurity, vanity and lust for power, seems determined to ruin everything.

[Bryce Lynch]

4 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Did she, though? Jon made her swear never to tell another soul. The marriage ceremony pronounced them "one flesh, one heart, one soul." So technically, she didn't actually break her oath.

That is ridiculous.  Tyrion and Sansa are no longer married.  I don't get why people try to excuse Sansa's wicked, treacherous, disloyal behavior with technicalities.  

[Indi]

9 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

But, I don't see how an intelligent person could expect it to turn out that way.  Jon doesn't want the IT, Dany wants it desperately and they are in love.

Actually, any intelligent person. Jon doesn't want the IT, but he has never rejected any position of power offered to him. As for their love, at this point, it's pretty much one-sided.

Quote

Jon made Sansa swear an oath to never tell a soul and she immediately went behind his back to Tyrion and broke that oath.   Now Tyrion and Varys are plotting or at least discussing treason.

Yep! So? He gave her a weapon, because he was too selfish to keep his sainthood and honor at bay for a while. She used it. Good for her.

Quote

Both treason and oath breaking carry the death penalty.  Robb threatened to hang Greatjon Umber as an oath breaker.

I could see Sansa, Tyrion and Varys all being executed.

It's a possibility. The other possibility is that it turns just right, since she is not participating in any of those just yet (breaking a promise is definitely not oath breaking).

Quote

Even if her plan "works" and Dany is killed and Jon becomes King, I could see Jon executing her.  Olly was a brother of the NW and like a son to Jon, arguably closer to him than Sansa ever was, and he didn't hesitate to hang him for mutiny and murder.

Nah! She hasn't done any of those things, you're accusing her of. Breaking a promise about a secret is not a crime. Not even in this universe.

Quote

Plus. she is stirring up all this strife before Cersei has been defeated, increasing the likelihood that Cersei will win.

It's a clever strategy, actually. They would flock to Jon, not Cersei. Jon is fighting Cersei, so no one would harm Dani, until after the battle.

[Drogo]

48 minutes ago, Indi said:

As for their love, at this point, it's pretty much one-sided.

These two look no less in love than they ever did, except now with added stress. 

The happiest couples in the world all have that one shitbag in-law.  Theirs is Sansa.   

[Indi]

5 minutes ago, Drogo said:

These two look no less in love than they ever did, except now with added stress. 

The happiest couples in the world all have that one shitbag in-law.  Theirs is Sansa.   

So... one-sided with added stress? Sounds about right.

Sansa is not hiding her disgust, that's true, but let's face it, nobody else in the family likes the bride. It's unfortunate 😞

[GodsBeloved]

5 minutes ago, Drogo said:

The happiest couples in the world all have that one shitbag in-law.  Theirs is Sansa.   

Come on now. When did Jon marry his auntie

[Indi]

19 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

Come on now. When did Jon marry his auntie

OMG! 😂

I have no idea, what's wrong with those two. It might be the actors and EC's worthy efforts are met with a wet blanket, who doesn't even try, but I'm willing to give KH a pass and believe it's in the writing. If you think about it, it makes sense. They met a few months ago, they had sex and we know she, at least, fell in love. I have no clue about him, but right now, it doesn't look like it.

Dani: Jon, I love you! Also, don't tell anyone about your claim to the throne! Tell me you love me!

Jon: Eeerrrr... Yes, Aunt... I mean! My Queen! 😖

I mean, I know Dani doesn't mind incest, but Jon might be understandably a little repulsed. Let's see if there are any unsexy times next episode or mutual declarations of love.

As for Sansa being a shitty in-law... not just yet and maybe never.

[Drogo]

21 minutes ago, Indi said:

30 minutes ago, Drogo said:

These two look no less in love than they ever did, except now with added stress. 

The happiest couples in the world all have that one shitbag in-law.  Theirs is Sansa.   

So... one-sided with added stress? Sounds about right.

So... no.  When someone says [two people] are "in love" reciprocity is implied. 

25 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

Come on now. When did Jon marry his auntie

Come on now- you know full well Sansa didn't plan or procure enough foodstores to have a wedding. 

What do wedding guests eat, anyway?

2 minutes ago, Indi said:

As for Sansa being a shitty in-law... not just yet and maybe never.

That bridge has been crossed, toll paid, EZ Pass sent an invoice already.

She should have been barbecued just for these shady elevator eyes, but she's stoked the fire ever since.   

[Indi]

20 minutes ago, Drogo said:

So... no.  When someone says [two people] are "in love" reciprocity is implied. 

Come on now- you know full well Sansa didn't plan or procure enough foodstores to have a wedding. 

What do wedding guests eat, anyway?

That bridge has been crossed, toll paid, EZ Pass sent an invoice already.

She should have been barbecued just for these shady elevator eyes, but she's stoked the fire ever since.   

I've been told Dani is looking for that invoice.

I'm sure she should, but only if Dani was a mad queen and I don't want to believe that slander.

Damn, but Sophie gives magnificent "elevator eyes"!

[GrailKing]

25 minutes ago, Drogo said:

So... no.  When someone says [two people] are "in love" reciprocity is implied. 

Come on now- you know full well Sansa didn't plan or procure enough foodstores to have a wedding. 

What do wedding guests eat, anyway?

That bridge has been crossed, toll paid, EZ Pass sent an invoice already.

She should have been barbecued just for these shady elevator eyes, but she's stoked the fire ever since.   

Why for protecting her people ?

Able to read the people better than Jon?

She's not trying to kill her, just move her out of Westeros with a kindly shove.

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

If Jon thought Arya or Sansa would break their oaths, he would not have told them.

You ever think, Jon had Bran tell them on purpose?

How many times did Sansa warn him, play smarter, if Jon can't see Danareys is focused on one thing, someone needs to step up.

As he told her on DS, you do what the people before you did, you're no different just more of the same.

The show is called the Game of Thrones, not the long night or the love dragons.

as long as a Targ, a Lannister or another person who feels that chair belongs to them nothing will change.

No Stark wants that chair, and Sansa setting up a defense for the North by dropping info that can remove Cersei, and or put someone tied to the North; is a good political move.

All the killing is squarely on Dani and Cersei, as no one knows out side of the eight or nine.

So there is no blood on her hands, Cersei started the bloodshed; Dani will continue it, and from the looks, Cersei and crew will give a final blow. 

[ursula]

2 hours ago, Indi said:

breaking a promise is definitely not oath breaking

🤦

[Indi]

4 minutes ago, ursula said:

🤦

Really? You think oath breaking in the show is exactly the same as breaking a promise (as we understand it?). OK then!

[Meredith Quill]

Sansa dropping that bomb to Tyrion was designed to create chaos. Chaos is a ladder, one that Sansa plans to climb. Sansa didn't just learn from Littlefinger, she became him. That's not a good look on anyone and doesn't bode well imo.

[dirtypop90]

Jon’s character would be 10 times better if he wanted to tell his sisters because he knew they would tell everyone and try to put him on the throne. 

[Indi]

3 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

Sansa dropping that bomb to Tyrion was designed to create chaos. Chaos is a ladder, one that Sansa plans to climb. Sansa didn't just learn from Littlefinger, she became him. That's not a good look on anyone and doesn't bode well imo.

I agree to an extent. It was designed to create very specific and directed chaos.

[ursula]

11 minutes ago, Indi said:

Really? You think oath breaking in the show is exactly the same as breaking a promise 

🤣🤣🤣🤣

Those crazy dictionaries....

[Meredith Quill]

11 minutes ago, Indi said:

I agree to an extent. It was designed to create very specific and directed chaos.

That may have been her intent and if so she wasn't smart because chaos is chaos and by its very nature; unpredictable and will result in things impossible to foresee...because it's chaos lol. Having chaos and specific in the same sentence is properly hilarious, I lol'ed.

[Indi]

3 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

That may have been her intent and if so she wasn't smart because chaos is chaos and by its very nature; unpredictable and will result in things impossible to foresee...because it's chaos lol. Having chaos and specific in the same sentence is properly hilarious, I lol'ed.

Yep! 😂 What I mean, it's not that chaotic after all. There can only be two outcomes (after Cersei is gone), people will support Jon or Dani.

[Meredith Quill]

2 minutes ago, Indi said:

Yep! 😂 What I mean, it's not that chaotic after all. There can only be two outcomes (after Cersei is gone), people will support Jon or Dani.

Fair enough but I disagree, many things could happen as a result, a domino/butterfly effect if you will. Nobody can yet say what those may be...good or bad for all concerned. But one thing is certain, Littlefinger's games aren't a great example to follow, judging by his end.

[izabella]

1 hour ago, Indi said:

Damn, but Sophie gives magnificent "elevator eyes"!

Lol, yes!  That gif gave me life this morning!  I don't know how I missed those eyes during that scene.  And I'm not even opposed to Dany.  Or Sansa.  I love them both and hate what the writers have done with their stories.

Edited May 10, 2019 by izabella

[GodsBeloved]

1 hour ago, Indi said:

Damn, but Sophie gives magnificent "elevator eyes"!

Elevator eyes! I love it!! She's giving Cooke a run for her money LOL

[Maximum Taco]

4 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

But, I don't see how an intelligent person could expect it to turn out that way.  Jon doesn't want the IT, Dany wants it desperately and they are in love.

Jon made Sansa swear an oath to never tell a soul and she immediately went behind his back to Tyrion and broke that oath.   Now Tyrion and Varys are plotting or at least discussing treason.

Both treason and oath breaking carry the death penalty.  Robb threatened to hang Greatjon Umber as an oath breaker.

I could see Sansa, Tyrion and Varys all being executed.

Even if her plan "works" and Dany is killed and Jon becomes King, I could see Jon executing her.  Olly was a brother of the NW and like a son to Jon, arguably closer to him than Sansa ever was, and he didn't hesitate to hang him for mutiny and murder.

Plus. she is stirring up all this strife before Cersei has been defeated, increasing the likelihood that Cersei will win.

Can he prove it though? Unlike Dany, Jon is not gonna execute someone without proof. He might think it's Sansa, but if he can't prove it's Sansa, she's safe. 

At the time of the telling, 7 people knew. Sam, Gilly, Bran, Arya, Sansa, Dany, and Jon himself. Soon after you add Tyrion and Varys for a total of 9. Tyrion says 8, but I'm guessing he's forgetting about Gilly (or maybe not including Dany.) 

Now I suppose he could go to each person and ask them pointedly if they told (and Bran might be willing to sell out Sansa cause who knows what the hell Bran will do anymore, cause he's Bran and wants nothing and is therefore entirely unpredictable. I still want to believe he wouldn't sell out his sister, but who knows?)

And that kind of questioning would clear Sam, Gilly, Bran, Arya, and Jon. But let's suppose Dany does die, and Jon questions Tyrion himself. 

Jon: Lord Tyrion you are accused of treason against our late Queen. But who told you about my heritage?

Tyrion: The Queen did. I was her Hand at the time, and understandably she trusted me. I suppose she shouldn't have. She wanted me to have a plan ready in case you decided to press your claim. I was concerned about her behaviour, and decided she shouldn't be the Queen anymore.

If Tyrion is about to be executed and knows it, I doubt he would throw Sansa under the bus. And he's smart enough to accuse a dead person, cause that cannot be corroborated. 

Conversely if Varys dies, Tyrion could also say Varys told him, and when they ask how Varys knows, well that's his job, Spymaster. 

This is exactly what Varys is saying to Tyrion, you tell everyone your secret and it's not a secret anymore. Ned and Lyanna are the testament to the phrase "Two can keep a secret, if one is dead"

Edited May 10, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[Constantinople]

51 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

Jon’s character would be 10 times better if he wanted to tell his sisters because he knew they would tell everyone and try to put him on the throne. 

King of the Andals, the First Men and the Passive Aggressive

[Constantinople]

35 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

Fair enough but I disagree, many things could happen as a result, a domino/butterfly effect if you will. Nobody can yet say what those may be...good or bad for all concerned. But one thing is certain, Littlefinger's games aren't a great example to follow, judging by his end.

Exactly.

At this rate, I'm starting to root for Cersei.

Starks should be Starks, not LittlefingerLannisters

Edited May 10, 2019 by Constantinople

[SilverShadow]

I don't think Sansa told Tyrion lightly. She was clearly shaken up by the revelation of Jon's parentage and at this point doesn't trust Dany, and I'm not sure that she's been given reason to. Especially when Tyrion confirmed that even he, someone in Dany's camp, is afraid of her.

Telling Tyrion is a pretty calculated move. She chose him-not any of the Northern Lords, who would have been all too happy to put a Northern male candidate who was raised as a Stark on the IT, for a reason. She knows his loyalty is with Dany but also that at heart he is a decent and intelligent person. If someone who is firmly Team Dany, whose opinions carry weight with her, concedes that Jon is the better candidate, that tells her something. If he doesn't, that tells her something too. 

I also don't think there was anything malicious in her questioning if their armies were fit for battle. I think it was genuine concern and having a bad feeling about going straight from one battle to the next. Jon and the Northern forces will be part of the fight, and if they get decimated that's bad for the North and for Sansa. I also don't think the question is something that needs a ton of military expertise to be asked. She has eyes. She can see how many died, how many are wounded, if those left seem weary or demoralized. 

Answering how long the men would need to get back to 100% is out of her wheelhouse however. I wouldn't expect her to know off hand how long wounds take to heal or how much time to recover from the physical strain of the battle would be ideal. 

[Constantinople]

Jon isn't going to execute Sansa for oath breaking any more than Robb didn't execute his mother for treason.

The Tully words pretty much apply to all noble families in the show Family, Duty, Honor.  Note that family comes first, and before duty or honor.

Robb executed Lord Karstark, but they're so distantly related it doesn't really apply.

Tywin/Cersei would have executed Tyrion, but that's yet another example of how dysfunctional the Lannisters are, see also Tyrion killing Tywin.

Ramsay killed Roose, but Ramsay was a power hungry psycho

Edited May 10, 2019 by Constantinople

[Drogo]

Just now, Constantinople said:

The Tully words pretty much apply to all noble families in the show Family, Duty, Honor.  Note that family comes first, and before duty or honor.

As it should be.  Even The Honorable Ned Stark put his family before his beloved honor. 

• He preferred execution to a false confession of treason- until Varys pointed out how Sansa would suffer if he didn't.
• He didn't tell his King the truth about Aegon in order to keep his promise to his sister and protect his nephew. 

Jon wouldn't promise Dany not to tell his Sisters From Another Mister about his true lineage, putting family first again.     

[screamin]

31 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

Jon: Lord Tyrion you are accused of treason against our late Queen. But who told you about my heritage?

Tyrion: The Queen did. I was her Hand at the time, and understandably she trusted me. I suppose she shouldn't have. She wanted me to have a plan ready in case you decided to press your claim. I was concerned about her behaviour, and decided she shouldn't be the Queen anymore.

If Tyrion is about to be executed and knows it, I doubt he would throw Sansa under the bus. And he's smart enough to accuse a dead person, cause that cannot be corroborated. 

Wow. I can totally see that happening with the showrunners' version of St. Tyrion the Martyr; apply one more coat of whitewash to differentiate his character further from dark Book Tyrion before putting the resulting noble statue on his tomb (ie, season 8 DVD case).

If Dany dies, Jon can choose to consider Sansa's breaking of her promise as treason to the King; the King he was all along in a strictly legal sense, even while Dany was still alive. Whether Jon would do so and execute his own sister-cousin and be a King kin-slayer is another question. I would say no, but looking back at his execution of Olly (which I still think of as a brutal act which he wasn't strictly entitled to do if he considered himself not belonging to the Watch after the moment of his death), who knows? Your theory would be one way out of the conundrum.

Edited May 10, 2019 by screamin

[screamin]

11 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Jon wouldn't promise Dany not to tell his Sisters From Another Mister about his true lineage, putting family first again.

Don't see how. This is a dangerous secret. How does knowing it protect his family or benefit them?

[Drogo]

39 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

Jon: Lord Tyrion you are accused of treason against our late Queen. But who told you about my heritage?

Tyrion: The Queen did. I was her Hand at the time, and understandably she trusted me. I suppose she shouldn't have. She wanted me to have a plan ready in case you decided to press your claim. I was concerned about her behaviour, and decided she shouldn't be the Queen anymore.

Pretty sure the next time Tyrion finds himself on trial by people who he has spent years devoted to, he's just going to pull one of these...

And Sansa would never confess to telling him so he could help put "someone better" on the throne, because her words are "Sansa, Family, Duty, Honor."

[izabella]

Tryrion has always said he would never bet against his family.  No one should trust him, ever, not Sansa, not Dany, not anyone but Jamie and Cersei.  It is a great disappointment to me that both Sansa and Dany trust him. 

Edited May 10, 2019 by izabella

[Indi]

Tyrion has always been kind to Sansa, so it's natural, that she trusts him to some extent. I don't think she does so blindly, though. As for Dani, I don't think she trusts him that much after so many blunders, but we'll see...

[Bryce Lynch]

36 minutes ago, Indi said:

Tyrion has always been kind to Sansa, so it's natural, that she trusts him to some extent. I don't think she does so blindly, though. As for Dani, I don't think she trusts him that much after so many blunders, but we'll see...

I think Dany still trusts Tyrion's loyalty, but is not sure if she can trust his judgment and advice.  

I was watching the scene with Tyrion and Varys again, and this time I came away more hopeful that Tyrion is going to rat out Varys to Dany and it will be Dracarys Time for the Spider.  Tyrion was pushing back a lot, not as firmly and absolutely as he should have been, but more than I remembered from the first watch.  

But, then I thought Dany would want to know how Varys knew and then how Tyrion knew, so telling her might endanger Tyrion and Sansa as well.   Perhaps Tyrion will kill Varys himself to prevent the betrayal.  

Edited May 10, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, Drogo said:

Jon wouldn't promise Dany not to tell his Sisters From Another Mister about his true lineage, putting family first again.     

I could be wrong, but to me it doesn't really seem like Jon was primarily thinking about family there in the sense that he would somehow be dishonoring them not to tell. I thought it was more that he himself didn't want to have to hide his identity even from his family. 

After all, it's not like Jon himself wants to particularly keep this secret. He doesn't want to announce himself the heir or anything, but it's only Dany who's freaked out at anybody knowing. I think Jon prefers having his nearest and dearest know the truth. I think he felt wrong keeping it a secret from Dany too.

[dirtypop90]

^ Hmm I think it's true Jon doesn't want this to be a secret -- He's always hated being a bastard; he felt (natural) feelings of jealousy toward Robb; the smudge on Ned's honor is wiped away etc.  Plus I do think he likes leading (whether he's admitted it to himself of not).  But, I do believe he cares about Dany and is fine with her being on the throne because she's been fighting for it all this time.  But if there was no Dany, do you all think he would still reject the opportunity to be King?  I'm not so sure.

That's why it's hard for me to be angry at Sansa for telling.  I don't think it's a secret Jon truly wants to keep.

Edited May 10, 2019 by dirtypop90

[arty]

5 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

He's always hated being a bastard

This is why I am so annoyed that no one in his life who cares about him was happy for him (that we were shown)on a personal level at the revelation! Jon finally knows that he is the trueborn son of highborn parents who loved each other and him. Bran is a lost cause unfortunately, but why aren't Sam, his sisters, and Dany taking a moment to celebrate that Jon has gotten something that he longed for his whole life -- or at least a close approximation of it? (I'm assuming that he shared this longing with Dany, his true love, on their boatride up to White Harbor.)  

[izabella]

13 minutes ago, arty said:

Bran is a lost cause unfortunately, but why aren't Sam, his sisters, and Dany taking a moment to celebrate that Jon has gotten something that he longed for his whole life -- or at least a close approximation of it?

To be fair, we didn't see Jon and Bran telling the sisters, or their reactions, so they might have been very happy for him, while still being concerned about everything else going on. 

Edited May 10, 2019 by izabella

[dirtypop90]

^ Exactly, Dany's the only one who we know is not happy for him.  But, to be fair to Dany, I don't think we can assume Jon has been forthcoming with her about his feelings on being a bastard.  If he had, I would hope they would show us some of that on screen.  Have we scene even one scene of Jon discussing his family with Dany?  Dany arrived to Winterfell in the dark.  She didn't really seem prepared for Sansa, for one.  

Edited May 10, 2019 by dirtypop90

[Umbelina]

6 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

Sansa dropping that bomb to Tyrion was designed to create chaos. Chaos is a ladder, one that Sansa plans to climb. Sansa didn't just learn from Littlefinger, she became him. That's not a good look on anyone and doesn't bode well imo.

I honestly don't think it was done for chaos.  I definitely don't think she's BECOME Littlefinger, but I cover that in later responsesl

Sansa learned from Cersei too, learned just how evil someone can be to hold a throne that doesn't belong to her.  She didn't 'become Cersei."  She learned from Littlefinger how the "great game" is played, something that relatively innocent and honorable Jon has almost no clue about.

Telling Tyrion/Varys gives Jon an extra chance of staying alive, because THEY are not innocent/naive/honorable and they know damn well that this information could get him killed.

Sansa was so worried about Jon going south because of what's happened to the other men in her family there.  She is trying to ensure that doesn't become Jon's fate as well.

5 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

Fair enough but I disagree, many things could happen as a result, a domino/butterfly effect if you will. Nobody can yet say what those may be...good or bad for all concerned. But one thing is certain, Littlefinger's games aren't a great example to follow, judging by his end.

Motivation counts.  She isn't Littlefinger.  She's learned about "the great game" from ruthless and evil Cersei, she knows her enemy, she lived with her.  She's learned from Tyrion, who used to be smart.  She's learned from Littlefinger, probably the very best "game player" of all, a man she already bested.

Jon is a babe in the woods compared to Sansa, and he is/was also blinded by love.

Sansa is aware that Dany COULD kill Jon, because nothing stands in Dany's way when it comes to being Queen of Westeros.  Jon may not "get it" but Sansa certainly does.  She KNOWS that Jon is the true heir, and that idiot Jon already told Dany.

Telling Tyrion, who will tell Varys, could protect Jon from a threat he is too naive to even see coming.

5 hours ago, izabella said:

Lol, yes!  That gif gave me life this morning!  I don't know how I missed those eyes during that scene.  And I'm not even opposed to Dany.  Or Sansa.  I love them both and hate what the writers have done with their stories.

LOVE "Elevator eyes!"

5 hours ago, SilverShadow said:

I don't think Sansa told Tyrion lightly. She was clearly shaken up by the revelation of Jon's parentage and at this point doesn't trust Dany, and I'm not sure that she's been given reason to. Especially when Tyrion confirmed that even he, someone in Dany's camp, is afraid of her.

Telling Tyrion is a pretty calculated move. She chose him-not any of the Northern Lords, who would have been all too happy to put a Northern male candidate who was raised as a Stark on the IT, for a reason. She knows his loyalty is with Dany but also that at heart he is a decent and intelligent person. If someone who is firmly Team Dany, whose opinions carry weight with her, concedes that Jon is the better candidate, that tells her something. If he doesn't, that tells her something too. 

I also don't think there was anything malicious in her questioning if their armies were fit for battle. I think it was genuine concern and having a bad feeling about going straight from one battle to the next. Jon and the Northern forces will be part of the fight, and if they get decimated that's bad for the North and for Sansa. I also don't think the question is something that needs a ton of military expertise to be asked. She has eyes. She can see how many died, how many are wounded, if those left seem weary or demoralized. 

Answering how long the men would need to get back to 100% is out of her wheelhouse however. I wouldn't expect her to know off hand how long wounds take to heal or how much time to recover from the physical strain of the battle would be ideal. 

ITA.

Sansa has learned from Cersei, from Tyrion, from Littlefinger about the need to think things through, and she's done that here.

Jon, in her opinion, is a better leader for Westeros than Dany, a women she doesn't like or trust, and an outsider.  It's better for her, and for the North that Jon assumes power, rather than Dany.

45 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I could be wrong, but to me it doesn't really seem like Jon was primarily thinking about family there in the sense that he would somehow be dishonoring them not to tell. I thought it was more that he himself didn't want to have to hide his identity even from his family. 

After all, it's not like Jon himself wants to particularly keep this secret. He doesn't want to announce himself the heir or anything, but it's only Dany who's freaked out at anybody knowing. I think Jon prefers having his nearest and dearest know the truth. I think he felt wrong keeping it a secret from Dany too.

Exactly.  Also letting Ned's surviving children know their father didn't cheat on their mother, as well as not keeping a lie about his very essense going. 

16 minutes ago, arty said:

This is why I am so annoyed that no one in his life who cares about him was happy for him (that we were shown)on a personal level at the revelation! Jon finally knows that he is the trueborn son of highborn parents who loved each other and him. Bran is a lost cause unfortunately, but why aren't Sam, his sisters, and Dany taking a moment to celebrate that Jon has gotten something that he longed for his whole life -- or at least a close approximation of it? (I'm assuming that he shared this longing with Dany, his true love, on their boatride up to White Harbor.)  

Well, we don't know that because the showrunners have decided to sprint through multiple stories because they are OVER this show, instead of handing it off to someone less burned out who could do these stories justice. 

All of the stories, but damn them for not letting us see Jon tell his sisters/cousins the about the biggest thing in his life, and in their father's life.  Damn them.  Robbed.  Cheated.  Bullshit.

[sistermagpie]

6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Sansa was so worried about Jon going south because of what's happened to the other men in her family there.  She is trying to ensure that doesn't become Jon's fate as well.

6 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

If definitely seemed to me as if Sansa's fear was real there when she talked about Jon going North. I think she was afraid for herself and the North in general as well, but the way the whole conversation was set up and played, it did seem to me that Sansa thought Jon was just too vulnerable with Dany here. If she was actually creating chaos just so she could climb it I think she'd have to have been shown doing other things and behaving slightly differently. She really doesn't seem like Little Finger or Cersei to me.

Of course her fears could wind up causing trouble, that would be par for the course. But I don't think her motivation is Cersei or Littlefinger-like. 

39 minutes ago, arty said:

This is why I am so annoyed that no one in his life who cares about him was happy for him (that we were shown)on a personal level at the revelation! Jon finally knows that he is the trueborn son of highborn parents who loved each other and him. Bran is a lost cause unfortunately, but why aren't Sam, his sisters, and Dany taking a moment to celebrate that Jon has gotten something that he longed for his whole life -- or at least a close approximation of it? (I'm assuming that he shared this longing with Dany, his true love, on their boatride up to White Harbor.)  

It was nice that before they told him both his human siblings were scoffing at the idea that they didn't consider him a full brother just because of his parentage. But still, Arya and Sansa would be the two people who would understand more than anyone what a huge deal it would be for him to learn who he really was. They both had very different relationships with him growing up. Arya would always have rooted for him to get this kind of legitimacy and Sansa has admitted that she was a little jerk to him as a kid because of a lie.