Sansa Stark: A Direwolf In Sheep's Clothing?

[Advance35]

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If Sansa really had any interest in being fucking helpful, she should have shared with Jon and Daenerys her certainty that "Cersei would most definitely NOT be coming to help them" immediately.  Instead of replying with a raven right away to say "Don't trust that bitch!" she waited until several weeks later when they were already back at Winterfell and even then, didn't go to them- instead gloating to Tyrion about what a stupid sucker he was to believe her.  It's only when Jaime arrives some time afterward that he confirms Cersei isn't coming. 

Ya because Sansa has never told Jon "We've been so occupied with the enemy to the North we've forgotten about the one to the South." 7x01.  "If your her enemy she will never stop until she destroys you." Also 7x01.  Does Jon Snow have a memory retention problem? If so, maybe he should abdicate and let Sansa run the North, he can stick to military campaigns.

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He wants Sansa to know her damn place

I'm sure he does.

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He wants Sansa to speak up when it suits him like in 8x01 

Yep. Sansa should be damn glad she's got the Vale in her corner (as Tyrion noted, Sansa would make sure Dany lost the Vale if the masses were in favor of Jon taking the throne).  She is the one that has continued to foster that relationship.

[Brn2bwild]

7 hours ago, GraceK said:

The thing is,  I WANT to like Sansa. I used to a lot. But can you honestly say this  season is doing her justice? Really? She is being irrational in her hatred for Daenerys, because she hasn’t earned it. It’s not about Sansa knowing her place, she has a strong , rightful place as Lady of Winterfell. She may not have a title of queen but she certainly is one in every sense of the word. She was antagonistic from the beginning, and it hasn’t stopped. Dany fought  with everything she had in the battle and lost more than anyone, and Sansa spent this whole episode giving her dirty looks and plotting against her . Why? What has Dany ever done to Sansa? Right now all Dany has done is lose people she loves and cares  for fighting with the north and is gonna take on Cersei as well , the real enemy of Sansa. And Sansa goes out of her way to be mean and petty. It’s bullshit.  I get she wants Independence for the North, but she’s not getting it from Cersei. What does antagonizing Dany, who at this point would LOVE a friendly face in the North, get her? Sansa just looks bad here, but defend her all you want.  She looks jealous and hateful, and can’t even give a reason when Tyrion flat out asks her why she hates Dany. And Jon trusts her with something, a life altering secret, by the Godswood, a sacred place , and she sells him out for her own purposes. Dany has honored every promise she made to Jon, they have no reason to not trust her. So far, it’s  The Starks who are coming across as untrustworthy and deceitful. They were happy to use her dragons and armies and want to kick her out now. It’s gross how the Starks are being portrayed. “ she’s not one of us”. It’s terrible. 

How I wish it had gone, but now will never have the chance: during the toasting scenes, that Sansa had stood up and toasted to Daenerys.  She would have publicly thanked her for risking her life and her dragons for the battle against the undead.  Then alone, Sansa could tell her that everyone else seemed to believe in Dany, so she would try to do so as well.  Dany, softened by this gesture, would thank Sansa and tell her that she understood Sansa's position.

Then, at least if everything went to shit later, at least there would have been that moment of understanding between them, where it seemed like everything just might work out. 

I had wanted Dany and Sansa to be friends for a little while, at least.  Now if they are allies, it's the secret kind that won't reveal itself until the last episode, like the Sansa-Arya alliance against Littlefinger, and is basically bullshit.   

[GodsBeloved]

17 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

That is being a steward, not a ruler.  The people of the North would never have done what Sansa said, if she was not making requests and demands in under Jon's authority.  

I'm not sure I buy this and here's why.

They know Sansa. She's a daughter of the North. Sansa has relationship with the North. As far as I can tell, the North had respect for her father. The Starks appear to be a "royal" family in the North and houses pledged themselves to the Starks. I think they respect Sansa in part because Ned Stark is her father.

I think these things go a long way in motivating the North to follow Sansa.

[Drogo]

5 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

Ya because Sansa has never told Jon "We've been so occupied with the enemy to the North we've forgotten about the one to the South." 7x01.  "If your her enemy she will never stop until she destroys you." Also 7x01. 

Sure, if we're citing quotes from the time immediately after Sansa withheld information about the Vale arriving for BotB and undermined/questioned Jon's authority at every turn as KitN.

[anamika]

35 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

Dany has never really successfully ruled anything, she failed at ruling Meereen and then burned everything down. Did she learn lessons? I certainly hope so, but there's no proof so far she has. 

Conversely, Sansa left the Eyrie having pretty much sworn them entirely to her allegiance. Not through force or fear, but through negotiation and diplomacy. If Dany sends word across the Narrow Sea will Meereen be there to welcome and obey her? I'm unsure. 

Are you seriously comparing Sansa asking some Lords to bring grain to WF through LF to Dany dealing with an insurgency, trade deals, famine, sickness, economy, suing for peace,  being a judge, commanding battles etc.? You are comparing Dany's ADwD book arc to Sansa's two lines of dialogue in season 7 about grain and armor and using this to say that Sansa is a better ruler? I have no words. I think I will stop here.

And as per the show, Dany does succeed in Meereen. She successfully defeats the slavers and has put Daario in charge. Meanwhile the only two Northern houses who answered Sansa's call to defend WF last episode were Alys Karstark and Lyanna Mormont. Pathetic. Is house Stark even in charge of the North anymore? Dany was more loyal to WF and the Starks than these other houses.

Edited May 7, 2019 by anamika

[GodsBeloved]

19 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

He wants Sansa to know her damn place and show some freaking respect to her Lord and her Queen.  Robb didn't take that sort of crap from Great Jon Umber.  Maybe, Jon should have had Ghost bite off Sansa's fingers when she showed such public disrespect.   

Only if Sansa reached for her knife. 

Jon Umber was disrespecting "the boy" Robb Stark long before Grey Wind took a bite out of him. It wasn't until Umber reached for his side knife that Grey Wind attacked.

[Maximum Taco]

4 minutes ago, anamika said:

Are you seriously comparing Sansa asking some Lords to bring grain to WF through LF to Dany dealing with an insurgency, trade deals, famine, sickness, economy, suing for peace,  being a judge, commanding battles etc.? Like seriously?  You are comparing Dany's ADwD book arc to Sansa's two lines of dialogue in season 7 about grain and armor and using this to say that Sansa is a better ruler? I have no words.

And as per the show, Dany does succeed in Meereen. She successfully defeats the slaves and has put Daario in charge. Meanwhile the only two Northern houses who answered Sansa's call to defend WF were Alys Karstark and Lyanna Mormont. Pathetic.

By what metric does Dany succeed in Meereen?

Is the city prosperous? Did she rebuild trade? Did she create schools for the slaves to learn and not just feast off the wealth already there? Did she repair the damage done by the war? Did she rebuild the fleet? Did she set a garrison she can trust to protect the city?

Or did she put in charge a sellsword of dubious loyalty and repute, take all the men of fighting age, burn down the entire fleet and leave?

I love how when the Northern houses offer their allegiance it's to Jon, but when they refuse his call because he bent the knee to a foreign Queen who they only know as the daughter of the man who burnt their liege lord alive it's somehow Sansa's fault. I'll point out that none of the Vale lords left. Because Sansa knows how to keep their loyalty. 

Edited May 7, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[anamika]

2 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

By what metric does Dany succeed in Meereen?

Is the city prosperous? Did she rebuild trade? Did she create schools for the slaves to learn and not just feast off the wealth already there? Did she repair the damage done by the war? Did she rebuild the fleet? Did she set a garrison she can trust to protect the city?

Or did she put in charge a sellsword of dubious loyalty and repute, take all the men of fighting age, burn down the entire fleet and leave?

All of which she was in the process of doing in the books before the dragonpit attack.

As per the show, she successfully put down the slave masters, put Daario in charge and has allowed for the slaves to make their own destiny in Meereen.

I mean, you believe Sansa is some super-duper ruler now because she had two lines of dialogue about grain over the course of the show. But Dany defeating the slavers and leaving a now free Meereen behind her is proof of bad ruling because she did not start a school? lol.

At least Dany has a whole book where she does ruling. What has Sansa done so far in the books other than try to get sweetrobin to eat his dinner?

[Bryce Lynch]

5 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

Only if Sansa reached for her knife. 

Jon Umber was disrespecting "the boy" Robb Stark long before Grey Wind took a bite out of him. It wasn't until Umber reached for his side knife that Grey Wind attacked.

True, but before Greatjon pulled his knife, Robb stood up, stared him down and told him that after the war was over he would root him out of his castle and hang him as an oathbreaker.  If Jon Snow threatened to hang Sansa and she backed down, she could keep her fingers.  

1 minute ago, anamika said:

All of which she was in the process of doing in the books before the dragonpit attack.

As per the show, she successfully put down the slave masters, put Daario in charge and has allowed for the slaves to make their own destiny in Meereen.

I mean, you believe Sansa is some super-duper ruler now because she had two lines of dialogue about grain over the course of the show. But Dany defeating the slavers and leaving a now free Meereen behind her is proof of bad ruling because she did not start a school? lol.

At least Dany has a whole book where she does ruling. What has Sansa done so far in the books other than try to get sweetrobin to eat his dinner?

I'm not a Sansa fan, but that seems like a pretty tough job, unless you are lactating. :)

[anamika]

This is what GRRM had to say about ruling in the books:

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One thing that I am trying to get at in the books, the political aspect if you would, is to kind of show that this stuff is hard. I think that an awful lot of fantasy and even some great fantasy falls under the mistake of assuming that a good man would be a good king and all that is necessary is to be a decent human being and then when you are king everything will go swimmingly. Tolkien is great but we never get into the nitty gritty of Aragorn ruling. What is his tax policy? How does he feel about crop rotation? How does he handle land disputes between two nobles, both of whom think that they should have the village, so they burn it down to establish their claim. This is the hard part of ruling be it in the middle ages or now. It’s not enough to be a good man to be an effective ruler. It’s complicated and it’s hard and I wanted to show that with repeated examples in my books with my kings and hand of the kings - the prime minister if you would - trying to rule. And whether it be Ned Stark or Tyrion Lannister or Tywin Lannister or Daenerys Targaryen or Cersei Lannister trying to deal with the real challenges that affect anyone trying to rule the 7K or even a city like Meereen and it’s hard. You know, we can all read the books or read history and say oh, so and so was stupid and made a lot of mistakes and look at all these stupid mistakes they make. But these kind of mistakes are always much more apparent in hind sight than when you are actually faced with the decision about, oh my God, what would I do in this situation. How do I resolve this thing? Do I do the moral thing? But what about  the political consequences of the moral thing? Do I do the pragmatic, cynical thing and kind of screw the people who are screwed by it? I mean, it is HARD. And I want to get to all of that - GRRM

Has Sansa done any of this? Has she mediated disputes between slave and master? What are Sansa's views on agriculture other than hoarding grain?

Even the little stuff that Sansa does in the show is Jon Snow's book plot. It's Jon who is busy negotiating with the Iron Bank for a loan to buy food. It's Jon who keeps an eye on the grains, barley and veggies and negotiates with wildings for money. It's Jon who wants to build a greenhouse on the Gift to grow food.

Meanwhile Sansa successfully manages to get SweetRobin to eat his dinner in the books and the show wants us to believe that Sansa is a better ruler/military expert/politician than Jon and Dany by giving her Jon's ADwD book plot and dumbing him down.

16 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I'm not a Sansa fan, but that seems like a pretty tough job, unless you are lactating. 🙂

Ha! It's tough I know. But it's no qualification to be the best ruler of the realm IMO.

Edited May 7, 2019 by anamika

[Maximum Taco]

15 minutes ago, anamika said:

All of which she was in the process of doing in the books before the dragonpit attack.

As per the show, she successfully put down the slave masters, put Daario in charge and has allowed for the slaves to make their own destiny in Meereen.

I mean, you believe Sansa is some super-duper ruler now because she had two lines of dialogue about grain over the course of the show. But Dany defeating the slavers and leaving a now free Meereen behind her is proof of bad ruling because she did not start a school? lol.

At least Dany has a whole book where she does ruling. What has Sansa done so far in the books other than try to get sweetrobin to eat his dinner?

Cherry picking some elements of Dany from the Books and some from the Show is pointedly unfair. 

Book Dany is not Show Dany. Book Sansa is not Show Sansa. Not since Season 4. 

In the show, and only the show, I believe that Sansa has done a much better job ruling then Daenerys. 

Sansa has cultivated a lasting relationship between the North and the Vale, when at the beginning of the series Lysa will not even lift a finger to help Cat. She was the driving force behind finally retaking Winterfell (it should be mentioned that Jon didn't want to at first, and would have failed if not for the Knights of the Vale), she has made sure that the people that she is sworn to protect had the food to last the winter. Is she a great warrior? No. But that doesn't mean she's not a good ruler. 

Dany on the other hand conquered city after city, but never did anything to maintain them. She freed slaves and punished injustice, most definitely. But she didn't bother to occupy her thoughts with what happens after. The slaves are freed, but what do they do now? A lot of them have no marketable skills, the wealthy have been cast down, so there's no one to drive economy. The Dothraki regularly raid these cities and take slaves of their own, how will the slaves protect themselves when Dany has killed the slaves who would fight and taken the rest for her own army? How long do you expect the Second Sons to hang around without payment? They aren't her subjects, they are her employees. What is keeping "The Bay of Dragons" from going back to their slaving ways, or imploding on itself like a dying star, or falling to a horde of Dothraki? Daario? You cannot seriously believe that Daario is gonna be a good steward for Dany, when has he shown any proclivity towards that? He is actually supposed to represent Dany's baser urges, his entire arc is about doing whatever you want and fucking the consequences. Is she a good conqueror? Most fucking definitely. Is she a good ruler? She hasn't shown any elements of being one. 

Edited May 7, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[GodsBeloved]

22 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

True, but before Greatjon pulled his knife, Robb stood up, stared him down and told him that after the war was over he would root him out of his castle and hang him as an oathbreaker.  If Jon Snow threatened to hang Sansa and she backed down, she could keep her fingers.  

What oath did Sansa break?

Edited May 7, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[Advance35]

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Sure, if we're citing quotes from the time immediately after Sansa withheld information about the Vale arriving for BotB and undermined/questioned Jon's authority at every turn as KitN.

Yep that's what we're quoting.  Unless info has to be delivered a certain way (maybe Sansa has to play airplane to get Jon to open his mouth and swallow his food), as a Lord he should be able to use all gained knowledge, no matter the means.  

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Or did she put in charge a sellsword of dubious loyalty and repute, take all the men of fighting age, burn down the entire fleet and leave?

That's what I recall.  I can't remember how she came to that decision.  But she wanted Westeros more than she wanted Mereen so it probably didn't matter.

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I love how when the Northern houses offer their allegiance it's to Jon, but when they refuse his call because he bent the knee to a foreign Queen who they only know as the daughter of the man who burnt their liege lord alive it's somehow Sansa's fault. I'll point out that none of the Vale lords left. Because Sansa knows how to keep their loyalty. 

The only way Sansa can please some is if she found bushels of grass that resembled pom poms, stood in the center of Winterfell and yelled at the top of her voice "Give Me a "D", Give Me An "A", Give Me An "E" Give Me An "N" and so on.   But than it would be "Sansa didn't kick high enough."

Sansa can be charming, when she wants to.  She certainly been doing so with the Vale, though Jon's been putting her in a corner non-stop.

Obedience without Question.

[Kate47]

I feel like every one of these conversations are at loggerheads and nobody is going to convince anyone either way and it's evolving into semantics. 

I like both Sansa and Dany. I think they're both strong women who went through incredibly tough times and came out the other side with strong viewpoints. I believe in both of them. The level of animosity both get sort of disheartens me.

[Bryce Lynch]

4 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

What oath did Sansa break?

Her house is sworn to House Targaryen.  

Greatjon didn't actually break any other either.  He threatened to do so, after Robb wouldn't back down and let him lead the vanguard.   

My point is Jon and Dany should have nipped Sansa's disrespect and insolence  in the bud.  I doubt any hanging or finger chewing would be necessary.  But Sansa needed to be told to show her Lord and her Queen the respect they are due, especially in public.   

[Maximum Taco]

9 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Her house is sworn to House Targaryen.  

Greatjon didn't actually break any other either.  He threatened to do so, after Robb wouldn't back down and let him lead the vanguard.   

My point is Jon and Dany should have nipped Sansa's disrespect and insolence  in the bud.  I doubt any hanging or finger chewing would be necessary.  But Sansa needed to be told to show her Lord and her Queen the respect they are due, especially in public.   

The Greatjon threatened to take his bannermen and go back to Last Hearth. That IS oathbreaking. 

Sansa surrendered her seat, she called her banners, and she obeyed their commands. She expressed her own misgivings about those commands but she still obeyed them, and never gave any indication that she would do otherwise. 

Where exactly is Sansa's oathbreaking? Is it against her oath to disagree with their course of action? Is snarking now an offense punishable by hanging? Even Joff just had Ser Meryn crack her in the face. 

Edited May 7, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[Smad]

Since people are so fond of interviews etc. that come from outside the show to prove their points as correct.

David Nutter who directed the episode:

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There is clearly a secret-keeping problem in Winterfell, with Jon Snow’s inability to promise Daenerys that he wouldn’t tell Arya and Sansa he’s Aegon Targaryen. Can you explain how you set this up so Sansa would then tell Tyrion, and it would all spread from there?

Well, it’s not so much that Sansa tells Tyrion, but Sansa is talking to Tyrion and he suspects something in her reaction to that. So I think that comes basically through his reading Sansa’s expression more than anything else.

So Sansa didn't break her promise according to Nutter.

But then D&D in 'Inside the episode' say something different entirely.

Feel free to chose which one supports your view of the story/character because the creative team sure seems to be of different minds. And you can be too.

The incompetence behind the scenes never ceases to astound me.

[BooBear]

2 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

Slavers Bay/The Bay of Dragons is not "All of Essos" it is a VERY VERY small part of it. 

Also Dany conquered Astapor and Yunkai and then immediately abandoned them. She never conquered and held more than a city at a time. 

And Sansa conquered? She should let the pros handle it.

[Maximum Taco]

2 minutes ago, BooBear said:

And Sansa conquered? She should let the pros handle it.

The Vale. Bloodlessly... well I guess Littlefinger's blood. Almost bloodlessly. 

Edited May 7, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[Smad]

1 minute ago, BooBear said:

And Sansa conquered? She should let the pros handle it.

What does that have to do with anything? And if you think Dany is a pro at conquering, or ruling or being a Queen, then you haven't been paying attention. Everyone on this show is a complete failure. Well except Cersie. And maybe Euron.

[Bryce Lynch]

14 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

The Greatjon threatened to take his bannermen and go back to Last Hearth. That IS oathbreaking. 

Sansa surrendered her seat, she called her banners, and she obeyed their commands. She expressed her own misgivings about those commands but she still obeyed them, and never gave any indication that she would do otherwise. 

Where exactly is Sansa's oathbreaking? Is it against her oath to disagree with their course of action? Is snarking now an offense punishable by hanging? Even Joff just had Ser Meryn crack her in the face. 

I didn't say she broke an oath.  I said she was disrespectful to Jon as her Lord and when he was her King and to Daenerys, her Queen.   

When Robb put his foot down with Greatjon, Greatjon threatened to break his oath, escalating things. 

Sansa should have been told not to speak to her Lord and Queen the way she does and to stop undermining them in public.   If she corrected her behavior that would have been the end of it.  If she refused and escalated things the way Greatjon did, things could have gotten uglier.  

[Smad]

2 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I said she was disrespectful to Jon as her Lord and when he was her King and to Daenerys, her Queen.

How is Jon her lord? Jon isn't a Lord. That's not a title he has. Technically speaking, none of these people have any official titles because they are only self-proclaimed 'what if' titles. Yet they all act as if they are set in stone. Except Sansa I guess which means she is the only one to understand the system lol.

Dany is NOT Queen of the 7K yet. Any titles she hands out are hypothetical ones for when she is Queen and these titles actually don't mean anything until she is sworn in as Queen. Dany can't make someone Warden of the North until she actually is Queen, so Jon's title is not really legally binding. She can't make Gendry Lord of Storms End until she is actually Queen, so his title is also only becoming a reality when she is Queen. And Dany isn't Queen of the 7K yet so technically not the North's Queen either.

Yet the audience and characters act as if these titles are set in stone, disregarding the actual rules of the universe they live in. Cersei is the current Queen of the 7K, whether that makes sense or not doesn't matter. She has the legal power to grant titles. Dany does not.

[Maximum Taco]

15 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I didn't say she broke an oath.  I said she was disrespectful to Jon as her Lord and when he was her King and to Daenerys, her Queen.   

When Robb put his foot down with Greatjon, Greatjon threatened to break his oath, escalating things. 

Sansa should have been told not to speak to her Lord and Queen the way she does and to stop undermining them in public.   If she corrected her behavior that would have been the end of it.  If she refused and escalated things the way Greatjon did, things could have gotten uglier.  

But that's the thing, whenever they put their foot down, Sansa does back down. 

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"How are we gonna feed our men?"

"Shut up Sansa. I could feed you to my dragons"

"Oh, ok."

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"Our men could use some rest"

"How much?"

"Oh I don't know. I'll ask someone more experienced"

"Shut up Sansa!"

"Yeah Sansa shut up!"

"Oh, ok." 

[Bryce Lynch]

11 minutes ago, Smad said:

How is Jon her lord? Jon isn't a Lord. That's not a title he has. Technically speaking, none of these people have any official titles because they are only self-proclaimed 'what if' titles. Yet they all act as if they are set in stone. Except Sansa I guess which means she is the only one to understand the system lol.

Dany is NOT Queen of the 7K yet. Any titles she hands out are hypothetical ones for when she is Queen and these titles actually don't mean anything until she is sworn in as Queen. Dany can't make someone Warden of the North until she actually is Queen, so Jon's title is not really legally binding. She can't make Gendry Lord of Storms End until she is actually Queen, so his title is also only becoming a reality when she is Queen. And Dany isn't Queen of the 7K yet so technically not the North's Queen either.

Yet the audience and characters act as if these titles are set in stone, disregarding the actual rules of the universe they live in. Cersei is the current Queen of the 7K, whether that makes sense or not doesn't matter. She has the legal power to grant titles. Dany does not.

Jon is Warden of the North.  That is how he signed he raven scroll to Winterfell announcing that he had bent the knee to Danerys.   

If Dany has no authority than Jon is still KITN.  Either way he outranks Sansa Lannister-Bolton.  

[Portia4844]

The show hasn't given any reason why Sansa wouldn't be qualified to be the Lady of Winterfell and have an important role in the North.  There's been no hint that she aspires to sit on the Throne or claims that she'd be the most qualified to do so.  

Sansa didn't like Jon bending the knee to Dany.  She has every right to have a problem with that but it doesn't make sense that she do anything to undermine Dany taking the Throne away from Cersei who would kill Sansa in a heartbeat.  She hasn't liked many of the decisions Jon has made yet wants to undermine Dany so he can be on the Throne?  

Sansa told LF she's a slow learner but that she does learn.  Great!  I wanted her to learn.  I wanted her to learn how to play the game in such a way that she has the best chance of continuing to be the Lady of Winterfell and learning to lead in the North.  It would have been to her advantage to welcome Dany and to support her in such a way that she's in a position to learn and to get what she wants in the North.  Why does she think that Dany on the Throne strips her of anything she is currently doing? 

[Smad]

4 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Jon is Warden of the North.  That is how he signed he raven scroll to Winterfell announcing that he had bent the knee to Danerys.   

If Dany has no authority than Jon is still KITN.

So what if Jon signed the scroll that way? It has no meaning because Dany isn't Queen. Sansa, and Lyanna Mormont for that matter, seem to be the only people who understand that until Dany is actually Queen, all these titles are 'what ifs' and 'maybe-s'. Just because all the other characters act as if Dany is already Queen and therefor has the power to grant titles, just shows how D&D don't get the world they write about.

Jon knelt to Dany just like Torren knelt to Aegon. The difference is that by then Aegon had conquered most of the realm (Dany conquered nothing except Dragonstone) and became King not long after. Which then made the titles official.

[GodsBeloved]

12 minutes ago, Portia4844 said:

Sansa told LF she's a slow learner but that she does learn.  Great!  I wanted her to learn.  I wanted her to learn how to play the game in such a way that she has the best chance of continuing to be the Lady of Winterfell and learning to lead in the North.  It would have been to her advantage to welcome Dany and to support her in such a way that she's in a position to learn and to get what she wants in the North.  Why does she think that Dany on the Throne strips her of anything she is currently doing? 

My take is Sansa is about independence for the North not (just) independence for herself and Winterfell.

btw, what Sansa is currently doing (or suppose to be doing according to some) is obeying Daenarys and Jon.

Edited May 7, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[Smad]

12 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Sansa Lannister-Bolton

Where is the eye roll emoji when you need it.

8 minutes ago, Portia4844 said:

Why does she think that Dany on the Throne strips her of anything she is currently doing?

Because Dany would have the power to strip her of those things. Since everyone seems to accept her as Queen already, she could have long stripped Sansa of her title and given WF to someone else. Dany could also use Sansa as a marriage bargaining chip for an alliance with another Kingdom. She could for example get the Vale by bartering a Robin-Sansa marriage. We are told Dorne has a new prince. Maybe he needs a wife still.

[Bryce Lynch]

Just now, Kate47 said:

I feel like every one of these conversations are at loggerheads and nobody is going to convince anyone either way and it's evolving into semantics. 

I like both Sansa and Dany. I think they're both strong women who went through incredibly tough times and came out the other side with strong viewpoints. I believe in both of them. The level of animosity both get sort of disheartens me.

I liked both of them until this last episode.  But, Sansa totally lost me in this episode, and it made me look back on her behavior throughout the series and I can find little of it that was good.   

They have both been through a great deal, but Daenerys has accomplished many amazing things, while Sansa has accomplished almost nothing.  Despite this, Sansa thinks she is above Daenerys.       

[GodsBeloved]

4 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I liked both of them until this last episode.  But, Sansa totally lost me in this episode, and it made me look back on her behavior throughout the series and I can find little of it that was good.   

They have both been through a great deal, but Daenerys has accomplished many amazing things, while Sansa has accomplished almost nothing.  Despite this, Sansa thinks she is above Daenerys.       

What specifically has Sansa done to give you this conclusion.

[MadameKillerB]

I find it baffling that these two female characters are so polarizing. Sansa and Dany are both strongly written and sometimes do dumb shit. They are layered, complex, and interesting. I am a Sansa fan mostly but I give Dany props too. I don't know why it has to be either/or.

[ursula]

3 hours ago, anamika said:

And it's Sansa who betrays that trust for her own selfish reasons and sends Northern soldiers into war with this timebomb ticking inside Tyrion's head. She has knowingly send her soldiers into a situation she has triggered - conflict and chaos between the allies. And people think Sansa cares for these soldiers more than Jon? lol.

The frustrating thing is that Sansa's villain arc is actually quite brilliant - she's becoming all the monsters she knew : Cersei, Little finger, (Ramsay if you consider the "hound" joke as sinister and I do) but it's incidental. The writers think they're crafting her as this amazing feminist icon of a Woman Who Has Matured Via Rape when if they just owned Sansa as someone who was broken and hardened into a monster, she'd be a much more amazing character.

[GraceK]

1 minute ago, ursula said:

The frustrating thing is that Sansa's villain arc is actually quite brilliant - she's becoming all the monsters she knew : Cersei, Little finger, (Ramsay if you consider the "hound" joke as sinister and I do) but it's incidental. The writers think they're crafting her as this amazing feminist icon of a Woman Who Has Matured Via Rape when if they just owned Sansa as someone who was broken and hardened into a monster, she'd be a much more amazing character.

She’s protected by her name. Because she’s a Stark, she will never be seen as a villain, No matter how many villainous actions she takes. Whereas Dany, has the opposite  problem. Her name is synonymous with a villainous legacy, and no matter how many heroic deeds she does, she will be always be seen as the villain.

[ursula]

3 hours ago, GodsBeloved said:

They know Sansa. She's a daughter of the North. Sansa has relationship with the North. As far as I can tell, the North had respect for her father.

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Sansa was being raped and tortured in Winterfell and not one Northern Lord raised a hand or an eyebrow to help her. She and Jon went around begging for allies to oust the Boltons and Mormont was the only House that came to their side because of Davos. She mocked Sansa's invocation of the Stark name (are you a Bolton or a Lannister?) and the calls to arms (we're tired of fighting Stark wars) and it was Davos hyping Jon as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch that changed her mind. They crowned Jon while Sansa was sitting right there.

Whose armies do you think the wildlings and the Vale fought to get back Winterfell?

The North Remembers plot was completely erased from the show and the North Lords turned into weather vaned traitors to prop Sansa and her Army of the Vale.

[ursula]

2 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

Sansa has cultivated a lasting relationship between the North and the Vale, when at the beginning of the series Lysa will not even lift a finger to help Cat. 

Well it's easy to cultivate a lasting relationship with the Vale when Lysa is dead. Murdered by the guy with a crush on Sansa. Like how is this Sansa's accomplishment? I guess you could argue that she "accomplished" having her mother's face? 

Edited May 7, 2019 by ursula

[ursula]

9 minutes ago, GraceK said:

She’s protected by her name. Because she’s a Stark, she will never be seen as a villain, No matter how many villainous actions she takes. Whereas Dany, has the opposite  problem. Her name is synonymous with a villainous legacy, and no matter how many heroic deeds she does, she will be always be seen as the villain.

It's almost as if there is a built in opportunity to be subversive right there... 😞

[Bryce Lynch]

3 minutes ago, ursula said:

Well it's easy to cultivate a lasting relationship with the Vale when Lysa is dead. Murdered by the guy with a crush on Sansa. Like how is this Sansa's accomplishment? I guess you could argue that she "accomplished" having her mother's face? 

Yeah, she helped the guy who  tried to have her little brother killed, and orchestrated the conflict between the Starks and the Lannisters that got most of her family killed, get away with murdering her aunt.   Quite an accomplishment.   

[ursula]

1 hour ago, Smad said:

Because Dany would have the power to strip her of those things. Since everyone seems to accept her as Queen already, she could have long stripped Sansa of her title and given WF to someone else. Dany could also use Sansa as a marriage bargaining chip for an alliance with another Kingdom. She could for example get the Vale by bartering a Robin-Sansa marriage. We are told Dorne has a new prince. Maybe he needs a wife still.

Then you'd think that instead of antagonizing Dany and giving her reasons to do all these things... Sansa would be negotiating with Dany so that none of these things would happen. Anyone with common sense who would have bothered to learn anything about Dany might have realized that as someone who was stripped off her own title and sold into marriage... She might , just might, be averse to doing the same to others. At the very least, it would seem sensible to put these concerns on the table 

But hey, that's common sense. We're talking brilliance. I'm sure the Smartest Person in the World considered all these options and decided on the reverse strategy for... reasons.

Edited May 7, 2019 by ursula

[Bryce Lynch]

6 minutes ago, ursula said:

Then you'd think that instead of antagonizing Dany and giving her reasons to do all these things... Sansa would be negotiating with Dany so that none of these things would happen. Anyone with common sense who would have bothered to learn anything about Dany might have realized that as someone who was stripped off her own title and sold into marriage... She might , just might, be averse to doing the same to others. At the very least, it would seem sensible to put these concerns on the table 

But hey, that's common sense. We're talking brilliance. I'm sure the Smartest Person in the World considered all these options and decided on the reverse strategy for... reasons.

Yes, antagonizing the most powerful woman in Westeros, who at the time had 2 dragons and huge armies, and wanted to be Sansa's friend, made a lot of sense.   

Even if she hated Dany, this was the time for Sansa to use the world class butt kissing skills she developed in Kings Landing, that kept her alive.   

[Brn2bwild]

I think what's upsetting me right now is knowing that Sansa and Dany will never be friends... not even in an "OMG I love her, but she's driving me crazy!" sense.  Because apparently women on this show can never be close.  While once-enemies like Tormund can clap Jon on the back and declare him king, Sansa can never cut Dany a break, or Dany soften up around Sansa.  Even though they have so much in common.  On this show, not even sisters are allowed to act close.  Sophie and Maisie are so lovely together, but you'd never know it from what this show gives you.  The only times I can think of a close connection between women are (1) when Dany and Missandei talked about sex with Greyworm and (2) when Shae protected Sansa before devolving into A Woman Scorned.  So... that's it.  

I really had high hopes that two strong women could eventually form a bond, but it's looking like that will never happen.

[ursula]

12 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Even if she hated Dany, this was the time for Sansa to use the world class butt kissing skills she developed in Kings Landing, that kept her alive

The smart thing, yes. But Sansa couldn't even do the neutral thing and just not antagonize Dany. Seriously... "what do dragons eat anyway?" Seriously? What was that? She sounded like Regina George in Mean Girls. I half expected Sansa to tell Dany that she invented Jon.

Edited May 7, 2019 by ursula

[Sakura12]

People keep saying Sansa learned from Littlefinger. I don't see that, if Littlefinger were alive he'd be so far up Dany's ass she'd need Drogon to follow her everywhere. He'd be planning with her against the North and Cersei, then going to Sansa and planning with her against Dany and Jon. Then trying to manipulate stupidly honest Jon into doing something stupid. While also sharing all he's learned with Cersei.

Sansa is acting more like Cersei being openly hostile and not hiding her true intentions at all. She'll act like families important then go against her family if it suits her needs more. 

[ursula]

13 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

Sansa can never cut Dany a break, or Dany soften up around Sansa.

I really wish people won't present the issue as a two-sided problem because it's not. Dany has softened and made overtures to Sansa and been snubbed and rebuffed. There is no feud. It's Sansa hating Dany for existing and Dany trying her best to navigate around that hate. 

ETA: Missandei and Dany do (did 😭) have a loving, mutually supportive female relationship. We tended to see more of Missandei supporting Dany than the other way around, but there were moments (especially with respect to the Grissandei romantic plot where Dany supported Missandei). It pays off now because no one will disbelieve why Missandei’s death, more than Jorah’s or even her dragons, will push Dany to the brink.

Shae/Sansa always came across as one-sided with Shae being protective of Sansa for reasons… until the show wanted Shae to be justifiably murdered by Tyrion. They could have written Shae as a victim of the Lannisters, tortured and forced into a confession that she didn’t mean. Heck, they could even have used her death to push Tyrion into murdering his father since they were so determined to keep his hands clean. But that would mean the writers giving a damn about how they present female characters. 

Edited May 7, 2019 by ursula

[Bryce Lynch]

6 minutes ago, ursula said:

The smart thing, yes. But Sansa couldn't even do the neutral thing and just not antagonize Dany. Yeah, Dany clapped back at the "what do dragons eat anyway?" question. I mean... What was that? She sounded like Regina George in Mean Girls. I half expected her to tell the Lords that she invented Jon.

I think the fact  that Sansa doesn't feel the need to kiss Dany's butt the way she did Cersei's and Joffrey's shows that she really doesn't fear  Dany or think she is a monster who will harm the North.  She is simply jealous and petty.   She thinks a more powerful, more accomplished and more beautiful woman diminishes her.  

Edited May 7, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[Brn2bwild]

11 minutes ago, ursula said:

I really wish people won't present the issue as a two-sided problem because it's not. Dany has softened and made overtures to Sansa and been snubbed and rebuffed. There is no feud. It's Sansa hating Dany for existing and Dany trying her best to navigate around that hate. 

What I mean by soften up is that it's not that Dany never tried to be friends with Sansa, because she did.  It's that we could see she never let her guard down.  We've seen "real" Dany, who is a sincere, decent person and can be quite humble.  The Dany who met with Sansa was not her.  She seemed more like she was putting on a performance.  Not that it would be surprising at that point in the story, but I kept hoping she and Sansa would "get real," have an honest to goodness breakthrough conversation that let themselves see the other as an ally.  THAT is what will never happen and that is what I'm mourning.

[GraceK]

10 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I think the fact  that Sansa doesn't feel the need to kiss Dany's butt the way she did Cersei's and Joffrey's shows that she really doesn't fear  Dany or think she is a monster who will harm the North.  She is simply jealous and petty.   She thinks a more powerful, more accomplished and more beautiful woman diminishes her.  

David Nutter admitted that Sansa is jealous of Dany in the past episode commentary. So there you go.

[ursula]

2 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

What I mean by soften up is that it's not that Dany never tried to be friends with Sansa, because she did.  It's that we could see she never let her guard down.  We've seen "real" Dany, who is a sincere, decent person and can be quite humble.  The Dany who met with Sansa was not her.  She seemed more like she was putting on a performance.

Well I didn't expect Dany to offer to braid Sansa's hair, but I felt Dany was being real enough when she admitted that she loved Jon, and even talked a bit about Drogo. In their very first encounter, Dany was gracious and complimentary and Sansa was icy and it went downhill. That Dany even tried to meet with Sansa again to make peace took a lot of effort. And it's telling that Sansa uses that opportunity to give Dany a back-handed apology/gratitude "I should have thanked you from the beginning" ("yeah, you should have, and you're technically not even thanking her now, and in 24 hours, you'll be complaining how your literally shotgun marriage failed because of her so you're being insincere af").

Which is pretty much my frustration with depicting this as a "feud" when one person is holding all the grudges and doing all the pettiness. At this point, Dany is just reacting to Sansa's hatred of her. She's not blind. And she was right on the money when she told Jon that Sansa would use the truth to destroy her. 

Again, my frustration with Sansa's arc is that it would be so much better if the writing was crafting her as a villain deliberately. 

7 minutes ago, GraceK said:

David Nutter admitted that Sansa is jealous of Dany in the past episode commentary. So there you go.

Well of course, she's jealous of Dany. I mean they literally have Sansa complain that Dany is prettier. These are women after all. What do you expect? It's in their nature to fight and compete with each other and not be supportive/admiring of each other. Didn't Shae turn against Tyrion because she was jealous of Sansa? 🙄 Heaven forbid that we got a story where two women with uncannily similar histories (orphans, cast from home, used as pawns, sold into marriages, and in the show - rape survivors who reclaimed their agencies) would have found common ground or -😲- reasons to like each other, even if they didn't share ideologies. 

It says something (bad) about the world/society we live in, that D & D will write and say this drivel and still go ahead and get jobs. 

[Advance35]

Quote

The Dany who met with Sansa was not her.  She seemed more like she was putting on a performance.  Not that it would be surprising at that point in the story, but I kept hoping she and Sansa would "get real," have an honest to goodness breakthrough conversation that let themselves see the other as an ally.  THAT is what will never happen and that is what I'm mourning.

I don't think Sansa's wired that way, at least not anymore.  I can't see her opening up to anyone.  She don't even think she did to Jon or Arya.

If we do see her reflect on any hardship or past hurts, it's usually just her taking solace in the perpetrators death (Joffrey) or gloating about her hand in it (Ramsay).  Dany seems to know more about Sansa (from Tyrion, I'd imagine) then vice versa but even if they knew how much they have in common (if one feels that they do), I don't think it would change either woman's outlook.

Sansa will see Dany as the woman that duped her rube brother into surrendering the North, stripping her land of it's independence and making The North forever subordinate to the Iron Throne.

Dany will see Sansa as a conniving, icey, grasping, ingrate who doesn't recognize a good thing (her rule) when it's in front of her.

Quote

Sansa surrendered her seat, she called her banners, and she obeyed their commands. She expressed her own misgivings about those commands but she still obeyed them, and never gave any indication that she would do otherwise.

She doesn't owe anyone anything more.  I'd imagine for Sansa, being powerless within the halls of Winterfell is a special kind of hell.  I can't blame her for practically choking on resentment.

[ursula]

2 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

If we do see her reflect on any hardship or past hurts, it's usually just her taking solace in the perpetrators death (Joffrey) or gloating about her hand in it (Ramsay). 

Well according to Sansa, getting raped and duped made her awesome.

Quote

Sansa will see Dany as the woman that duped her rube brother into surrendering the North, stripping her land of it's independence and making The North forever subordinate to the Iron Throne.

Disregarding what Sansa may or may not about the circumstances of Jon bending the knee, she has eyes, right? She can see that Dany brought her armies and dragons to fight for the North? Someone with common sense might consider that a fair trade.

Of course, Sansa being the Smartest Person in the World would have figured out a way to fight the Night King and Cersei without giving up anything if Jon had just given her the chance. 

Quote

Dany will see Sansa as a conniving, icey, grasping, ingrate who doesn't recognize a good thing (her rule) when it's in front of her.

So basically Dany is seeing Sansa for who she is? 

[Advance35]

Quote

My take is Sansa is about independence for the North not (just) independence for herself and Winterfell.

This is what I get from her as well.  They had independence for a short while, in her eyes, I imagine it was a lot to lose.  Or have taken away, in actuality.

Quote

So what if Jon signed the scroll that way? It has no meaning because Dany isn't Queen. Sansa, and Lyanna Mormont for that matter, seem to be the only people who understand that until Dany is actually Queen, all these titles are 'what ifs' and 'maybe-s'. Just because all the other characters act as if Dany is already Queen and therefor has the power to grant titles, just shows how D&D don't get the world they write about.

Oooooooh I like it.  And this is also a good reason for Sansa to plant her political grenade now, instead of waiting until Dany is declared ruler and everything is cemented.   The Vale hasn't sworn to Dany either from what I recall.  They stayed in Winterfell for Sansa, who convinced them to help fight the AOD but they don't seem inclined to support Daenerys.

I can't help being grateful to D&D, flaws and all, GRRM was never going to finish this story, however rushed, I'm going to be provided answers and there is a chance, a few of the characters will get the ending I want for them. LOL.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Advance35