Sansa Stark: A Direwolf In Sheep's Clothing?

[Advance35]

I get why Sansa let the genie out of the bottle.  The only thing Sansa had to fight with was weak reed Jon and he's Dany's pet now.

Why should she surrender her wants, nobody else in this story ever does.  She wants an Independent North, she wants herself and her land, free from Iron Throne control.   If Jon won't help her, she'll help herself.

I knew Sansa was going to do *something* when after Jon shut down her legitament concern, Dany went on to emphasis that "All Seven Kingdoms will be under the control of their rightful Queen" while smirking at Sansa.   Tyrion and Varys are how Dany intends to HOLD the iron throne during peace time, so of course Sansa is going to attack that support.  Her gambit worked, Team Dany is crumbling on the inside, helped along by Dany's impatience.

If Dany had given The North Independence, Sansa would probably have been very welcoming to Dany BUT the Dragon Queen must have everything.  She wants all Seven Kingdoms so she gets all seven Kingdoms.

That War Room strategy session was a glimpse into Sansa's future with Dany on the Throne.  Anything Sansa wanted, Dany would make Jon over-rule.   Sansa doesn't take kindly to being strong armed in Winterfell.

[screamin]

8 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

I get why Sansa let the genie out of the bottle.  The only thing Sansa had to fight with was weak reed Jon and he's Dany's pet now.

Why should she surrender her wants, nobody else in this story ever does.  She wants an Independent North, she wants herself and her land, free from Iron Throne control.   If Jon won't help her, she'll help herself.

I knew Sansa was going to do *something* when after Jon shut down her legitament concern, Dany went on to emphasis that "All Seven Kingdoms will be under the control of their rightful Queen" while smirking at Sansa.   Tyrion and Varys are how Dany intends to HOLD the iron throne during peace time, so of course Sansa is going to attack that support.  Her gambit worked, Team Dany is crumbling on the inside, helped along by Dany's impatience.

If Dany had given The North Independence, Sansa would probably have been very welcoming to Dany BUT the Dragon Queen must have everything.  She wants all Seven Kingdoms so she gets all seven Kingdoms.

That War Room strategy session was a glimpse into Sansa's future with Dany on the Throne.  Anything Sansa wanted, Dany would make Jon over-rule.   Sansa doesn't take kindly to being strong armed in Winterfell.

I think that Sansa's worried that Dany won't even get that far - that she's riding her army and dragons too recklessly and will give Cersei a chance to best her and get Jon and his Northern army annihilated along with it - thus leaving Sansa in the position to have to go to the Vale and plead for Sweetrobin's alliance to save her and the North from Cersei - at whatever price he chooses to set.

  In the meantime, what if Dany and Jon have an especially acrimonious ex-lovers' quarrel on their way to KL and Dany decides that having Jon's claim hanging over her head when she no longer has his heart isn't worth the trouble, and she arranges for Jon to have a 'heroic death in battle?'

[Meredith Quill]

3 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

Sansa doesn't take kindly to being strong armed in Winterfell.

Well, she was much worse than 'strong armed' in Winterfell in season 5...and despite not taking kindly to it - did naff all about it other than say "Let me die now" until Theon saved her butt.

That's some acrobatic twist of logic to assert that because she was scared for Jon, thus she betrayed Jon, despite the fact that Dany has saved his ass how many times now (one of those being after she knew he was Aegon, lest we forget). Poor hapless Jon is lucky Sansa was there to save him while he was beyond the wall dealing with the King Beyond the Wall and the machinations at Castle Black by Alliser and Slynt as well as fighting at Hardhome and Castle Black...oh wait.

Sansa learned the game from Cersei and Littlefinger, of course she's going to use their tactics and in doing so she becomes like them, the student becomes the master and all that. To deny that fact is to be in denial.

However, she was much more receptive to Littlefinger's lessons, hence her line just before he was executed "Thank you for all your many lessons Lord Baelish, I'll never forget them". If she isn't Littlefinger yet, she's definitely Littlefinger-esque. 

Chaos is a-coming.

[Umbelina]

49 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

1 hour ago, Advance35 said:

Sansa doesn't take kindly to being strong armed in Winterfell.

Well, she was much worse than 'strong armed' in Winterfell in season 5...and despite not taking kindly to it - did naff all about it other than say "Let me die now" until Theon saved her butt.

 Sansa had been through absolute hell, of course she was a wreck then.  Even the strongest people, or eventually composed people can have times where it's hard to go on, and if anyone had earned that momentary weakness and exhaustion?  It was Sansa at that moment. 

She's recovered though, and she's living in the now (something so horribly and clumsily mangled by that awful dialogue D&D gave her about her rapes, etc.)  As bad as the dialogue was, it was obvious she was saying "yes, I went through hell, but I'm not in hell now, and I like the person all those horrors helped me become, it was a horrible price to pay, but I paid it.  I earned my resolve, my caution, my awareness of evil and the "great games" people play."

She wants to use that hard won awareness to save Jon's life, and to save the North, and to keep herself safe from further horrors.  She's acting like an adult, slightly jaded, but she's not wallowing, she has taken control of her own fate.

She considered Jon's wishes about not telling anyone, but since Jon had already idiotically blurted it out to Dany and didn't even see that Dany's nearly fanatical desire for the throne and control of all 7 Kingdoms jeopardized his life? 

She knows how power works now.  She knows the horrid things people can do.  Telling Tyrion gave both Jon and the North a better chance of surviving.  Jon's honor and naivete could and probably would get him killed.  Someone who understood the political implications had to be told.

Edited May 10, 2019 by Umbelina
" and clarity

[Meredith Quill]

50 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

 Sansa had been through absolute hell, of course she was a wreck then.  Even the strongest people, or eventually composed people can have times where it's hard to go on, and if anyone had earned that momentary weakness and exhaustion?  It was Sansa at that moment.

My point is, she wasn't a wreck Day 1. How long do you suppose she was at Winterfell before she married Ramsay? Considering Baelish skulked around for a while before heading to KL at Cersei's demand. In that time she didn't bother getting to know Ramsay himself, or chatting to anyone (servants, stablehands, anyone in Wintertown, basically anyone), finding out his habits, his likes/dislikes. Heck, after that bizarre display at dinner with Ramsay, Reek, Roose & Walda, didn't that alone give her a clue "Hey this guy is a creepy dick, maybe I oughta find out more about him before I go through with this marriage" but yet she still went ahead and married him despite being utterly clueless as to his nature. Clearly she learned nothing from Margaery even though they were friends.

So are we to believe that despite Littlefinger's instruction of "You'll take this Ramsay boy and make him your own" which she replied she didn't know how to do, she truly actually knew how to do nothing at all. We saw nothing even before she married Ramsay and certainly no inner strength, resolve or scheming after, unless you count giving Reek a candle. She was repeatedly saved by others, the one and only time she 'saved herself' all it took was telling one lie in the Vale. Yet after that, once she arrived at Winterfell we saw zero evidence of any ability whatsoever to out-maneuver her enemies, even before her wedding night. Therefore, we must deduce that everything she currently knows Littlefinger taught her after her escape from Winterfell.

Let's explore what other lessons she learned from Littlefinger after all that had happened. As far as I can tell it can be summed up as "When I'm trying to understand a person's motives I like to play a little game" and "Always fight every battle in your mind all at the same time". Now suddenly the narrative tells us, and expects us to buy, that in the space of 7 episodes (less fewer tm Stannis - if you count the dumb Arya v Sansa stuff) she became a smart, cunning and a savvy political player essentially overnight. 

This is why I cannot get on board with the idea that she's little miss smartypants, the show hasn't sold it to me well enough.

However, I can see that the show sorely wants to tell me she's a new and improved version of Littlefinger and that's the problem; it's all tell with very little show.

Hmmm, I call BS, show.

[Umbelina]

I see what you are saying, but I also still think that the totality of what she's been through, once she had time to rest from torture and repeated violent rapes, she's slowly but surely put her life experiences in perspective.  She's taken the valuable, and dropped the useless, and what we see now is a Sansa well trained in the ways of the south, in politics.

No, I don't think it's just Littlefinger's lessons.  It's everything, now that she's home and has time to reflect, learn, do something other than fear for her life every second.  It's also Tyrion.  It's learning how her aunt was conned by Littlefinger.  It's seeing clearly the mistakes her naive but lovable and honorable father made.  It's living with Cersei, seeing the game played from the throne.

All of those things and more have made her who she is now.  Reflective, willing to consider implications, politically astute, blinders are off, aware of horrors that can fell people like naive Jon.  She once was Jon in many ways, she improved in the Vale, then had set backs.

She's not, to me, Miss Smarty Pants.  She is AWARE though, and she makes herself try to think things through all the way, without prejudice, but with her quite unique perspective.  From Ned, from Cersei, from Ramsey, from Joffrey, from the Queen of Thornes, from Littlefinger, from Tyrion, from watching the deaths of most of her family...all of those experiences have steadily contributed to a woman with open eyes who has learned to take nothing at face value, and to examine, and to consider the worst possible outcomes.  Because those "worst" things have happened to her, and to her family.

Not flawless, and she herself said she's not quick.  What she IS, is thorough.

Edited May 10, 2019 by Umbelina
added stuff

[Bryce Lynch]

45 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

 Sansa had been through absolute hell, of course she was a wreck then.  Even the strongest people, or eventually composed people can have times where it's hard to go on, and if anyone had earned that momentary weakness and exhaustion?  It was Sansa at that moment. 

She's recovered though, and she's living in the now (something so horribly and clumsily mangled by that awful dialogue D&D gave her about her rapes, etc.)  As bad as the dialogue was, it was obvious she was saying "yes, I went through hell, but I'm not in hell now, and I like the person all those horrors helped me become, it was a horrible price to pay, but I paid it.  I earned my resolve, my caution, my awareness of evil and the "great games" people play."

She wants to use that hard won awareness to save Jon's life, and to save the North, and to keep herself safe from further horrors.  She's acting like an adult, slightly jaded, but she's not wallowing, she has taken control of her own fate.

She considered Jon's wishes about not telling anyone, but since Jon had already idiotically blurted it out to Dany and didn't even see that Dany's nearly fanatical desire for the throne and control of all 7 Kingdoms jeopardized his life? 

She knows how power works now.  She knows the horrid things people can do.  Telling Tyrion gave both Jon and the North a better chance of surviving.  Jon's honor and naivete could and probably would get him killed.  Someone who understood the political implications had to be told.

But, Jon told Dany he didn't want the throne and Dany clearly wants to be with Jon, and have him keep his identity secret.  They are on the same page, except Jon insisted on telling his cousins, while Dany wisely understood that petty, power hungry Sansa would never keep the secret, but would try to use it to destroy Dany in a power grab.

If Dany is as fanatical as Sansa thinks, then Sansa put Jon's life in grave danger, along with her own and Tyrion's.

[Umbelina]

4 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

But, Jon told Dany he didn't want the throne and Dany clearly wants to be with Jon, and have him keep his identity secret.  They are on the same page, except Jon insisted on telling his cousins, while Dany wisely understood that petty, power hungry Sansa would never keep the secret, but would try to use it to destroy Dany in a power grab.

If Dany is as fanatical as Sansa thinks, then Sansa put Jon's life in grave danger, along with her own and Tyrion's.

I disagree.

Dany could kill Jon in a heartbeat because he IS the rightful heir.  I didn't notice her immediately bending the knee to him.

She quite possibly saved his life, by putting information in the hands of people who are not as naive as Jon.

Edited May 10, 2019 by Umbelina

[Meredith Quill]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

I see what you are saying, but I also still think that the totality of what she's been through, once she had time to rest from torture and repeated violent rapes, she's slowly but surely put her life experiences in perspective.  She's taken the valuable, and dropped the useless, and what we see now is a Sansa well trained in the ways of the south, in politics.

No, I don't think it's just Littlefinger's lessons.  It's everything, now that she's home and has time to reflect, learn, do something other than fear for her life every second.  It's also Tyrion.  It's learning how her aunt was conned by Littlefinger.  It's seeing clearly the mistakes her naive but lovable and honorable father made.  It's living with Cersei, seeing the game played from the throne.

All of those things and more have made her who she is now.  Reflective, willing to consider implications, politically astute, blinders are off, aware of horrors that can fell people like naive Jon.  She once was Jon in many ways, she improved in the Vale, then had set backs.

She's not, to me, Miss Smarty Pants.  She is AWARE though, and she makes herself try to think things through all the way, without prejudice, but with her quite unique perspective.  From Ned, from Cersei, from Ramsey, from Joffrey, from the Queen of Thornes, from Littlefinger, from Tyrion, from watching the deaths of most of her family...all of those experiences have steadily contributed to a woman with open eyes who has learned to take nothing at face value, and to examine, and to consider the worst possible outcomes.  Because those "worst" things have happened to her, and to her family.

Not flawless, and she herself said she's not quick.  What she IS, is thorough.

So what you're saying is she's the Donna Noble (Doctor Who shoutout) of Westeros. She just needed time to jumpstart all the lessons she'd learned? Nothing she learned from Cersei and all the rest came into play in season 5/6, it all coalesced suddenly by the end of season 7. Sorry, I don't buy it, it's too convenient but if you do that's fine. I'm not attacking Sansa per se, I'm critical of the writing, it needed to be way better to convince me.

[Umbelina]

9 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

So what you're saying is she's the Donna Noble (Doctor Who shoutout) version of Westeros. She just needed time to jumpstart all the lessons she'd learned? Nothing she learned from Cersei and all the rest came into play in season 5, it all coalesced suddenly by the end of season 7. Sorry, I don't buy it, it's too convenient but if you do that's fine. I'm not attacking Sansa per se, I'm critical of the writing, it needed to be way better to convince me.

Not at all.

She is someone who learned.  She learned, in most cases, the hard way.

To me, her telling Tyrion was a very smart move.  It's what I would have done.  Jon is not equipped for the "great game" and he has blinders on with Dany, so she gave that information to someone who might be able to protect her brother/cousin in the snakepit he's about to enter.

I think it's very telling that she was worried for him, since other men in her family who went south are all dead.  That scene was there for a reason.

I don't think Sansa knows all, because I've never thought there would even be a throne at the end, and I doubt she's ever considered that.  What she trusts is her gut and her experience, and she's listening to the warning bells Dany sets off in her.

She will be a good lord for the North, she cares about people, she knows their histories and their issues and needs.  She doesn't give a shit about the great throne as long as it leaves her, and hers alone.  In that vein, she quite logically thinks Jon would be better for the North than Dany, someone who has no idea about the North, or the rest of the 7 Kingdoms.  Someone who isn't even the rightful heir.

Edited May 10, 2019 by Umbelina
added worried for jon's safety part

[Advance35]

Quote

Well, she was much worse than 'strong armed' in Winterfell in season 5...and despite not taking kindly to it - did naff all about it other than say "Let me die now" until Theon saved her butt.

Ya. That's why she fed him to dogs.  

I imagine being pushed around in her families home, by Dany and Jon (even figuratively) puts  Sansa in a very dark mindset.   I have know problem finding that believable.

And Winterfell/The North wouldn't even be an option for Jon to foolishly hand over to that would-be Queen if it wasn't for Sansa.  I'm not talking about BoB, Jon didn't want to fight for Winterfell.  He wanted to take Sansa and run some place warm, she had to brow beat him into it.

I think she cares about Jon but I wouldn't be surprised if a large part of her motivation was herself.  I think it's earned.  She went through a lot to regain her families seat, she didn't do it so she could then spend her life bowing and curtseying and "Yes Your Graceing" to  Daenerys Targaryen hence forth and forevermore.

Again, I don't blame her.  But then I don't care about Dany, so there is very little that could make me take her side in a conflict with Sansa.

[Meredith Quill]

She learned, but she didn't use/was unable to use any, not a single one, of those lessons to serve her well before season 7 - is that what I should believe?

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

To me, her telling Tyrion was a very smart move.  It's what I would have done.  Jon is not equipped for the "great game" and he has blinders on with Dany, so she gave that information to someone who might be able to protect her brother/cousin in the snakepit he's about to enter.

That's Jon's choice though, Sansa betrayed him no matter which way you slice it. You see good intentions (the path to hell is paved with those), I see otherwise. 

6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

and she's listening to the warning bells Dany sets off in her.

Based on what though, that she wouldn't concede to Sansa's thinly veiled, rather rude "What👏about👏the👏North?"? I wouldn't have entertained someone who spoke to me in that manner either quite frankly, I'd've told her to go procreate herself. Regardless of position or power, common courtesy isn't too much to expect no matter who you are.

Dany herself isn't setting off bells in her imo, as Arya stated 'she's not one of us' - ergo, anyone Jon falls for would be viewed with hostility. I'd love to hear what Arya would've said about Ygritte -  ugh, she's not one of us! 🤣

[Umbelina]

I see Sansa as a slow, methodical person.  She's paid dearly in the past for being romantic, for making quick decisions, for trusting other people.

She's the opposite of brilliant.

It took her forever to learn, and it took horrors for her to learn.  Nothing ever came easy for her, or didn't since the moment her idiot father took her to KL.  She even says "I'm not quick."

She's like a mountain goat, slowly but steadily climbing those knowledge mountains, considering each step along the way to avoid disaster. 

[Meredith Quill]

5 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

Again, I don't blame her.  But then I don't care about Dany, so there is very little that could make me take her side in a conflict with Sansa.

That's perfectly fine but sadly it means we have little to discuss as being fully biased leaves no room for good debate.

[Umbelina]

11 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

That's Jon's choice though, Sansa betrayed him no matter which way you slice it. You see good intentions (the path to hell is paved with those), I see otherwise. 

I disagree.

He had already told Dany.  At that point, Sansa, who wants him alive, had no choice but to tell someone smarter and more astute than trusting, naive Jon, who knows nothing, certainly not about the south or the horrors of the game.

11 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

Based on what though, that she wouldn't concede to Sansa's thinly veiled, rather rude "What👏about👏the👏North?"? I wouldn't have entertained someone who spoke to me in that manner either quite frankly, I'd've told her to go procreate herself. Regardless of position or power, common courtesy isn't too much to expect no matter who you are.

Dany herself isn't setting off bells in her imo, as Arya stated 'she's not one of us' - ergo, anyone Jon falls for would be viewed with hostility. I'd love to hear what Arya would've said about Ygritte -  ugh, she's not one of us! 🤣

Again, we just see it differently.

Dany's a fanatic about "the rightful heir to the throne" even though she knows nothing at all about her future subjects.  She wouldn't even concede the North, which might have gained her a valuable ally.

As for why alarm bells went off?  I certainly see reasons.  I've never been fond of fanatics myself, but also, dragons.  Also, she, as you pointed out earlier, failed to listen to or look for or see the alarm bells with Joffrey, with Cersei, with Ramsey.

She's learned.  She won't make the same mistakes again.

Edited May 10, 2019 by Umbelina
no not not

[Umbelina]

3 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

That's perfectly fine but sadly it means we have little to discuss as being fully biased leaves no room for good debate.

I don't dislike Dany at all, for a long time I rooted for her.  I don't like the Dany that has finally made it to Westeros though.  I don't like inherited wealth or power.  I don't like how willing she is to burn groups of people.

I really don't like her much now, because she's a hypocrite, and I can't stand them.  She's been spouting off since the show began about the rightful heir, and all of her actions have supposedly been for that goal.

NOW?  She knows Jon is the rightful heir.  If something other than personal power was her reason for wanting the rightful heir on the throne?  Why didn't she bend the knee?  Why did she tell him to lie?

Because Dany is about power, about glory, not about "the rightful heir/ruler" at all. 

[Meredith Quill]

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

Dany's a fanatic about "the rightful heir to the throne" even though she knows nothing at all about her future subjects.  She wouldn't even concede the North, which might have gained her a valuable ally.

But Sansa knew nothing about Dany before she set foot in Winterfell and was immediately icy. Had she shown more friendly overtures I see no reason why she wouldn't have got what she wanted, after all Dany acceded to Yara's request pretty easily. Given that Sansa is the sister of the man Dany loves and clearly Dany was keen to make a good first impression with his family, it would naturally follow had it been reciprocated Sansa would've gotten her wish.

[Meredith Quill]

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I don't like inherited wealth or power.

Isn't Sansa/House Stark a benefactor of inherited wealth and power though? Maybe to a lesser extent but nevertheless, it counts the same.

[Umbelina]

2 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

But Sansa knew nothing about Dany before she set foot in Winterfell and was immediately icy. Had she shown more friendly overtures I see no reason why she wouldn't have got what she wanted, after all Dany acceded to Yara's request pretty easily. Given that Sansa is the sister of the man Dany loves and clearly Dany was keen to make a good first impression with his family, it would naturally follow had it been reciprocated Sansa would've gotten her wish.

I agree, but it makes sense to me that Sansa will never, ever, immediately trust someone again.

Dany needs praise and flowers at her feet, and Sansa might do that over time, but no stranger is going to be welcomed with joy immediately by anyone in the North.  Certainly not by Sansa, who has learned caution, and needs time to decide things.

2 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

Isn't Sansa/House Stark a benefactor of inherited wealth and power though? Maybe to a lesser extent but nevertheless, it counts the same.

Absolutely.

The difference is the Northern families are quite independent and Sansa knows them and their needs.

I'm not convinced that Sansa would insist on ruling any of them, Ned really didn't rule, he managed.

That said, I would be thrilled if all "houses" were eliminated, but since I doubt that will happen, I think Sansa would be a calm and fair leader, her goals would be safety, and she listens to the other northern houses.

So, she would be one of the best in a bad system.  They aren't rich like Oleanna was, the North is more hardscrabble, I don't think Ned collected taxes, for example, and neither would Sansa.  Her dad was an idiot as far as the "great game" but he was loved and respected by the smaller northern houses.  I think Sansa would strive to be like Ned.

[Meredith Quill]

12 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I don't like how willing she is to burn groups of people.

I really don't like her much now, because she's a hypocrite, and I can't stand them.  She's been spouting off since the show began about the rightful heir, and all of her actions have supposedly been for that goal.

NOW?  She knows Jon is the rightful heir.  If something other than personal power was her reason for wanting the rightful heir on the throne?  Why didn't she bend the knee?  Why did she tell him to lie?

Which groups of people? Enemy soldiers? She hasn't burned any other groups I can think of. I don't see hypocrisy, I see stubbornness, singleminded-ness to avenge House Targaryen. Most likely as a result of being hunted all her life, she too wants to feel safe and so for the very same reason that is applied to Sansa; the best way to achieve that is to be the one in charge.

I wasn't a fan of her telling Jon to keep it a secret, however, Jon stated emphatically that he doesn't want the throne, so why would she bend the knee? On that basis and that basis alone, I can see her point. 

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

The difference is the Northern families are quite independent and Sansa knows them and their needs.

I'm not convinced that Sansa would insist on ruling any of them, Ned really didn't rule, he managed.

That said, I would be thrilled if all "houses" were eliminated, but since I doubt that will happen, I think Sansa would be a calm and fair leader, her goals would be safety, and she listens to the other northern houses.

So, she would be one of the best in a bad system.  They aren't rich like Oleanna was, the North is more hardscrabble, I don't think Ned collected taxes, for example, and neither would Sansa.  Her dad was an idiot as far as the "great game" but he was loved and respected by the smaller northern houses.  I think Sansa would strive to be like Ned.

Ok, so you don't entirely dislike inherited wealth and power, only absolute power, is that right?

[Umbelina]

9 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

Which groups of people? Enemy soldiers? She hasn't burned any other groups I can think of. I don't see hypocrisy, I see stubbornness, singleminded-ness to avenge House Targaryen. Most likely as a result of being hunted all her life, she too wants to feel safe and as so for the very same reason that is applied to Sansa; the best way to achieve that is to be the one in charge.

I wasn't a fan of her telling Jon to keep it a secret, however, Jon stated emphatically that he doesn't want the throne, so why would she bend the knee? On that basis and that basis alone, I can see her point. 

She's burned others, without trial.  That bothered me in Meereen.  Some of those men may have been innocent of those people hanging on crosses.

She would bend the knee, by her own standards, because whether he wanted it or not?  He WAS the rightful heir.

Jon is much too honest and honorable for this world, and he acts too quickly, making bad decisions.  The BoB for example, and especially blurting his true status out to Dany.

If he was wise, or thought things through?  He woudn't have told her at all.  He doesn't want the throne, and again, by her standards, he must take it, because...rules! 

I think Sansa might have honored his wish for silence, if he hadn't already told Dany.  Once Dany knew, even though Jon doesn't see it, Sansa did.  She's been around the players, she knows that Jon, by telling Dany, became a threat to Dany's desires and goals.

She also recognized that Jon would not be able to continue the incest, she knows Jon.  So, Dany loses her love, her bed buddy, and oh yeah, he's the rightful King.

That just all added up to an unacceptable risk to Jon's life.  For the methodical, by experience, Sansa.

Edited May 10, 2019 by Umbelina

[Constantinople]

15 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I don't like inherited wealth or power.

Then you should root for Cersei. She didn't inherit the Iron Throne.

17 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I really don't like her much now, because she's a hypocrite, and I can't stand them.

Cersei isn't a hypocrite. She wants power and she DGAF what she has to do to acquire it or keep it

[Umbelina]

11 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

Ok, so you don't entirely dislike inherited wealth and power, only absolute power, is that right?

??

I don't know what you mean.

I prefer people who earn their own way.  I prefer true democracies.  I like commonwealths. 

I don't think the luck of birth should have one damn thing to do with ruling.

[Advance35]

Quote

I agree, but it makes sense to me that Sansa will never, ever, immediately trust someone again.

Moreso, I don't think Sansa will ever trust/like anyone with more power than her.  She's spent too long powerless.  Joffrey, Tywin, Cersei, Olenna, Margaery, Littlefinger, Lysa, Roose, Ramsay.  Being under the rule of someone else has never gone well for Sansa.   All characters are a product of their journey so far.

The only time Sansa could have come to a peaceful accord was during her discussion with Dany in the Library BUT again, Northern Independence was not on the table.  Dany *appeared* ready to giggle and be surface friends but Sansa is only interested in one thing.

Many have said they feel Sansa took the wrong track with Dany but even if Sansa had played "Margaery Tyrell", Dany wants ALL Seven Kingdoms.  They could have wound up in a sewing circle and Sansa could have said "Dany how about making the North Independent."  Dany would have simply said "Sorry, No."  Then what?  

At present, Sansa is waging what I'm sure she views as a losing battle, but that's not going to stop her from trying.  Brava darling.

Edited May 10, 2019 by Advance35

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, Constantinople said:

Then you should root for Cersei. She didn't inherit the Iron Throne.

Cersei isn't a hypocrite. She wants power and she DGAF what she has to do to acquire it or keep it

Cersei is a monster.

Hypocrisy is not the only thing I dislike.

[JennyMominFL]

58 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

So what you're saying is she's the Donna Noble (Doctor Who shoutout) version of Westeros. She just needed time to jumpstart all the lessons she'd learned? Nothing she learned from Cersei and all the rest came into play in season 5/6, it all coalesced suddenly by the end of season 7. Sorry, I don't buy it, it's too convenient but if you do that's fine. I'm not attacking Sansa per se, I'm critical of the writing, it needed to be way better to convince me.

Im here for the Doctor Who references, especially with half the cast of GoT having been on the show. Maybe Sansa will get her memory wiped and go back to being old Sansa. Although old Sansa was quite awful much of the time too.

[Meredith Quill]

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

She's burned others, without trial.  That bothered me in Meereen.  Some of those men may have been innocent of those people hanging on crosses.

Ok but you said burned groups of people so, slightly misleading as we're talking about something else.

Dany is ruthless and acts on her emotions, maybe it wasn't wise and she made mistakes for sure but learned from them too. Hence, her permitting Hizdar to take down his father's body and realising she should become betrothed to a Meereenese noble.

5 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

She would bend the knee, by her own standards, because whether he wanted it or not?  He WAS the rightful heir.

I'm confused, when has she forced anyone in her orbit to do something they expressly didn't want to do? I agree if Jon wanted the throne she should absolutely bend the knee, but he doesn't so I don't see the problem? If we really want to drill down into this rules business, then making Gendry Lord of Storm's End also gave him a claim to the throne, arguably more valid than her own as Robert was the last rightful King if we use the 'might is right' line of thinking. So going by that logic she should now bend the knee to Gendry in fact.

As for the rest, we just see Sansa's motivations from wholly opposite perspectives.

[Constantinople]

6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Cersei is a monster.

Hypocrisy is not the only thing I dislike.

She rid the land of a religious tyranny and weakened the class of inherited wealth and power

Sternness in defense of the realm is no vice - Grand Maester Pycelle

[Meredith Quill]

16 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

??

I don't know what you mean.

I prefer people who earn their own way.  I prefer true democracies.  I like commonwealths. 

I don't think the luck of birth should have one damn thing to do with ruling.

In which case you shouldn't be in favour of Sansa being Lady of Winterfell and definitely not Queen in the North or anyone else having inherited titles and the power that comes with them.

[JennyMominFL]

12 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

In which case you shouldn't be in favour of Sansa being Lady of Winterfell and definitely not Queen in the North or anyone else having inherited titles etc.

I would love to see these titles all go away, no king of the North, no IT etc. Let people keep their ancestral homes. That can be done with out having total power over the people involved. Let them do what many in France did after the Revolution.  The ones who did not die sometimes kept their homes but paid the people who worked their lands.

I stayed a  Chateau in France that had one belonged to aristocracy. The family still own it, but have no official title anymore. They still employ a lot of people in the town but keep the chateau going by renting rooms. And thy have sold off much of the land over the last 200 years. Let Sansa keep her home but no more ruling the people.  Id like to see a Westeros that is without authoritarian rulers. I dont care who it hurts, Sansa, Dany et cetera 

Edited May 11, 2019 by JennyMominFL

[Umbelina]

2 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

Ok but you said burned groups of people so, slightly misleading as we're talking about something else.

Dany is ruthless and acts on her emotions, maybe it wasn't wise and she made mistakes for sure but learned from them too. Hence, her permitting Hizdar to take down his father's body and realising she should become betrothed to a Meereenese noble.

I'm confused, when has she forced anyone in her orbit to do something they expressly didn't want to do? I agree if Jon wanted the throne she should absolutely bend the knee, but he doesn't so I don't see the problem? If we really want to drill down into this rules business, then making Gendry Lord of Storm's End also gave him a claim to the throne, arguably more valid than her own as Robert was the last rightful King if we use the 'might is right' line of thinking. So going by that logic she should now bend the knee to Gendry in fact.

As for the rest, we just see Sansa's motivations from wholly opposite perspectives.

I just don't understand the either Dany or Sansa choice.  Both are complicated, fascinating women who have been through a lot.

I've enjoyed them both quite a bit.  In my heart of hearts I wish both could live happy lives, and I'll probably fan fic my way into imagine Dany saying "fuck this ugly throne and Westeros!" and flown off to find a house with a red door, and a husband who doesn't rape her, and isn't related to her, and lived happily with her dragons.  There is more than one way to break the wheel, jump off it.

Sansa having skills doesn't negate Dany's skills, and visa versa.  Ditto their faults.

I think Dany wanting that throne has been a mistake, and I don't think she's the right leader for Westeros, and I don't think she actually enjoys "leading" (book) or is very good at it.  She's a fantastic conqueror, but that doesn't equate to a great leader.  Also, as I said, from years and years ago when I first read the books, I hoped for an ending with NO throne.

That doesn't mean I haven't loved the hell out of Dany's story, or that I dislike Dany.  I do wish she had made different choices, but if she did, we wouldn't have this tale.  😉

Sansa, in retrospect, has been mostly a victim, a story I didn't enjoy nearly as much as Dany and her triumphs and bravery.  What I do like about Sansa's story is her arc.  I love that she's triumphed finally in being master of herself and her emotions and mind.  It didn't come naturally for her.  She was a flibberty gibbot in the beginning.  Now?  She's a mature, thoughtful person who is determined to learn, and to put what she's learned to practical and important use.

She's become Ned with a brain and a vagina.

1 minute ago, SilverStormm said:

In which case you shouldn't be in favour of Sansa being Lady of Winterfell or anyone else having inherited titles etc.

As I said above, I wish ALL inherited titles to "houses" were eliminated in Westeros, but I can't see that happening.  From the reaction of the northerners though, they would probably elect Sansa anyway.  She's done a good job.

[Meredith Quill]

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I just don't understand the either Dany or Sansa choice.  Both are complicated, fascinating women who have been through a lot.

I agree, I mostly dislike the writing on the show. Who knows, in the books it may all be very different! We can hope anyway.

[Bryce Lynch]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

 Sansa had been through absolute hell, of course she was a wreck then.  Even the strongest people, or eventually composed people can have times where it's hard to go on, and if anyone had earned that momentary weakness and exhaustion?  It was Sansa at that moment. 

She's recovered though, and she's living in the now (something so horribly and clumsily mangled by that awful dialogue D&D gave her about her rapes, etc.)  As bad as the dialogue was, it was obvious she was saying "yes, I went through hell, but I'm not in hell now, and I like the person all those horrors helped me become, it was a horrible price to pay, but I paid it.  I earned my resolve, my caution, my awareness of evil and the "great games" people play."

She wants to use that hard won awareness to save Jon's life, and to save the North, and to keep herself safe from further horrors.  She's acting like an adult, slightly jaded, but she's not wallowing, she has taken control of her own fate.

She considered Jon's wishes about not telling anyone, but since Jon had already idiotically blurted it out to Dany and didn't even see that Dany's nearly fanatical desire for the throne and control of all 7 Kingdoms jeopardized his life? 

She knows how power works now.  She knows the horrid things people can do.  Telling Tyrion gave both Jon and the North a better chance of surviving.  Jon's honor and naivete could and probably would get him killed.  Someone who understood the political implications had to be told.

But, Jon told Dany he didn't want the throne and Dany clearly wants to be with Jon, and have him keep his identity secret.  They are on the same page, except Jon insisted on telling his cousins, while Dany wisely understood that petty, power hungry Sansa would never keep the secret, but would try to use it to destroy Dany in a power grab.

If Dany is as fanatical as Sansa thinks, then Sansa put Jon's life in grave danger, along with her own and Tyrion's.

As long as Jon's secret was kept safe, there was no danger to anyone.  He would be at her side as she ruled making her a better, calmer Queen.  The North would have a friendly Queen and their Lord would be at her side helping her rule.

But spoiled, petty, jealous, selfish, devious Sansa had to destroy everything.

[Drogo]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

She wouldn't even concede the North, which might have gained her a valuable ally.

This makes it sound like losing the North is some small thing. 

She literally just got the North.

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

I agree, but it makes sense to me that Sansa will never, ever, immediately trust someone again.

Brienne: You can trust Jamie Lannister, he's come a long way from pushing your brother out the window, threatening to catapult your baby cousin into the walls of Riverrun and sexually harassing your mom. 

Sansa: K!  He can sit with us. 

---

Jon: Daenerys will be a good Queen; she protects her people, wants to break the wheel that's crushing the common folk, won't pursue the Throne until the North is safe from the AotD - not to mention she's saved my life. 

Sansa: You know nothing, Jon Snow.

[Umbelina]

I've already answered all of those arguments in my other posts, repeating it all again would be annoying for all including me.  @Bryce Lynch

I will say again, I don't understand this fan "contest" between Dany and Sansa.  It's completely possible to like both characters, and dislike both characters.  Which?  I do.

They are complicated women, both shaped by things that were out of their control.  Dany's horrid brother filling her head with how joyful the people of Westeros would be as they bowed and laughed and threw flowers at them arriving back in Westeros.

Sansa's entire arc was shaped by her having an honorable, but incredibly stupid father who dragged her to Westeros and wrecked all of their lives, including hers.

Edited May 11, 2019 by Umbelina

[Umbelina]

3 minutes ago, Drogo said:

This makes it sound like losing the North is some small thing. 

She literally just got the North.

She got Jon, I don't see the other people of the north, including Sansa, bending their knees.  If they did, I missed it.

4 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Brienne: You can trust Jamie Lannister, he's come a long way from pushing your brother ot the window, threatening to catapult your baby cousin into the walls of Riverrun and sexually harassing your mom. 

Sansa: K!

I don't think it was quite that simple.  She does trust Brienne though, who has spent years earning Sansa's trust.  Also, Bran welcomed Jaime as well.

5 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Sansa: You know nothing, Jon Snow.

Ha!  True.  At least he finally knows who he is though, that's something.  It may have to change to:

You know almost nothing Aegon Targerean!

[Drogo]

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

She got Jon, I don't see the other people of the north, including Sansa, bending their knees.  If they did, I missed it.

They don't have to. Their King bent the knee. 

4 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

She does trust Brienne though, who has spent years earning Sansa's trust.  Also, Bran welcomed Jaime as well.

She trusts Brienne more than Jon. I got that. 

That should be an indication to Jon how much he should really trust her.

[screamin]

14 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

But, Jon told Dany he didn't want the throne and Dany clearly wants to be with Jon, and have him keep his identity secret.  They are on the same page, except Jon insisted on telling his cousins, while Dany wisely understood that petty, power hungry Sansa would never keep the secret, but would try to use it to destroy Dany in a power grab.

If Dany is as fanatical as Sansa thinks, then Sansa put Jon's life in grave danger, along with her own and Tyrion's.

Jon and Dany aren't on the same page in their romantic relationship, which Dany wants to resume and Jon is hanging back from. Jon went against Dany's express order (nearly an ultimatum) to tell Sansa and Arya about his parentage, apparently behind Dany's back. He's not on the same page with that either. And both happened without Sansa causing them.

If Dany is as fanatical as Sansa thinks, then Jon put his own life in grave danger by telling the queen about his parentage and superior claim to the throne, and is compounding the danger by letting his relationship with Dany cool, thus letting her think his love is no longer a factor that would keep him from eventually reaching to take the throne. By telling Tyrion there is an alternative monarch available if the queen fucks things up, Sansa's putting potential allies in place to help Jon if he turns out to need them.

[Umbelina]

3 minutes ago, Drogo said:

They don't have to. Their King bent the knee. 

She trusts Brienne more than Jon. I got that. 

That should be an indication to Jon how much he should really trust her.

I think she loves Jon, but she also sees he's too naive, and he doesn't think things through, certainly not enough to deal with the snake pit of the south.  I think she's afraid he will die, like all the rest of the idiot Stark men, when he heads south, or starts to participate in the GoT.

[SilverShadow]

I think Sansa being icy to Dany was a deliberate choice. She's seen how the powerful can make nice with those they can control and or believe to be on their side and didn't want another surprise. I think she wanted to see as soon as possible any signs of Dany being another Joffrey or Ramsey (or Cersei or Littlefinger...) and the quickest way to do that was to challenge Dany's authority, albeit in a very limited way. IMO it was a test and one Dany didn't exactly pass.

And while Dany and her forces fighting the Night King with the North is commendable, it was also practical for her. Cersei choosing to take the risk of all of mankind being wiped out on the off-chance she came out on-top was so short-sided and abhorrent even Jaime finally left her because of it. 

I like Dany and want her to have a positive ending, whether it does or doesn't involve the IT. Because as a viewer I've spent 7.5 seasons with her. Sansa hasn't. The only context she has is what she's heard and seen from others and how Dany herself has behaved in front of her. And from Sansa's perspective, there have absolutely been some red flags, along with a lot of bad family history. 

IIRC Sansa never says she trusts Jaime herself. She says she trusts Brienne, who helped her flee the Boltons, tried to offer her aid even before that, and has protected her since. 

Jon's judgement is suspect in Sansa's eyes because he's in love with Dany and she's seen how that can twist people's perceptions. And when she looks to her next best source of information, Tyrion, he expresses doubts that compound her own. 

[raven]

21 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I think she loves Jon, but she also sees he's too naive, and he doesn't think things through, certainly not enough to deal with the snake pit of the south. 

Right, she doesn't trust him to be smart or aware enough to deal with the south.  Yet she insists that he must trust her (though she betrays his trust).   So why does she want him on the throne again?  I also don't think she loves Jon, but that is neither here nor there IMO.

Perhaps because she has been so damaged, Sansa to me is one of those people who projects her own failings onto others; she is a liar so others must be as well; she is incapable of love so others' love is suspect; she is driven by bitterness and pettiness so others must be also; having been powerless, she craves power and will do anything to hold on to it.

By the way, this could make her an interesting character but the writing has let her down as it has the other characters. 

I mean, she accepts Jamie Lannister, whose father orchestrated the murder of her mother and brother; whose family had her father executed in front of her - Sansa accepts him on Brienne's say so - which Brienne gives because Jamie has saved her life and she is in love with him.  Yet Jon's word is suspect because he (supposedly) loves Dany, who has saved his life and brought help for fighting the AoTD.  But Dany wants power, so Jon's word cannot be trusted though his reasoning for trusting Dany is nearly the same as Brienne's for trusting Jamie, and is arguably stronger.

To me, it doesn't play on the show that Sansa is being brilliant or cautious here, it only appears that she is being petty for no other reason than to be petty.  We could have three powerful women fighting for their places to bring us to the endgame, with the intrigue and drama that presents.  But no, because ya know, bitches be crazy, as Dumb and Dumber have written this.

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, Drogo said:

This makes it sound like losing the North is some small thing. 

She literally just got the North.

This might be a side issue but I think there's a good argument to say that yes, it is a small thing. She went most of her life, like most people, not being the supreme ruler of any country. Now it's a huge loss to maybe only become the supreme ruler of 6 of them and not 7?

I get why it's important to Dany psychologically and has become more and more important over time, which probably isn't a good thing. But it is still Dany making the much bigger demand. Most people probably would react more like Sansa in the face of it.

[Indi]

10 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

Based on what though, that she wouldn't concede to Sansa's thinly veiled, rather rude "What👏about👏the👏North?"? I wouldn't have entertained someone who spoke to me in that manner either quite frankly, I'd've told her to go procreate herself. Regardless of position or power, common courtesy isn't too much to expect no matter who you are.

Dany herself isn't setting off bells in her imo, as Arya stated 'she's not one of us' - ergo, anyone Jon falls for would be viewed with hostility. I'd love to hear what Arya would've said about Ygritte -  ugh, she's not one of us! 🤣

Right. If a stranger came to my house and told me they'd rule over me, because my brother/cousin said so, I should be over the moon or I would be an ungrateful brat.

Why would Arya say that about Ygritte? Here is the thing, Dany's increasing paranoia is not just about Sansa's antipathy or Jon's claim to the IT. Nobody else in Winterfell, other than Jon, seems to trust her or even like her. Lyanna Mormont and the other lords weren't happy with her at all. The only reason they fell in line is because of Jon and they made it very clear.

Arya didn't tell him that, because she can't stand anyone he falls for. She's more levelheaded than that. The reason is, IMO, because she observed and she wasn't convinced by a foreigner, who hadn't stepped foot on Westeros until a few weeks ago and who pretends to rule them all or else...

[Lillith]

12 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

But, Jon told Dany he didn't want the throne and Dany clearly wants to be with Jon, and have him keep his identity secret.  They are on the same page, except Jon insisted on telling his cousins, while Dany wisely understood that petty, power hungry Sansa would never keep the secret, but would try to use it to destroy Dany in a power grab.

If Dany is as fanatical as Sansa thinks, then Sansa put Jon's life in grave danger, along with her own and Tyrion's.

I'm not sure she thinks she's fanatical, I just think Sansa doesn't like her and doesn't think she's got the right temperament. Add to that Sansa doesn't want the North (or herself) to cede power again. 

[Meredith Quill]

6 hours ago, Indi said:

Right. If a stranger came to my house and told me they'd rule over me, because my brother/cousin said so, I should be over the moon or I would be an ungrateful brat.

You comparison doesn't hold water. You aren't a Lord/Lady living in a feudal society and you didn't assent to giving your brother/cousin dominion over you. If you were then yes, you absolutely have to do as he/she has declared, because that's how feudal society works. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

If you want a modern comparison - If you lived, say here in the UK and the Queen (aka a stranger to you unless you have royal connections) came to your house, you wouldn't show her respect and basic courtesy (she does have dominion over you, her face is on the money lol)? No-one said you have to be over the moon about it. But if you were rude, contemptuous or sneering, most people would think that's outrageous.

You propose an argument that I never made: be over the moon or be an ungrateful brat. There's an entire gulf of attitudes to have inbetween those two extremes.

6 hours ago, Indi said:

Why would Arya say that about Ygritte? Here is the thing, Dany's increasing paranoia is not just about Sansa's antipathy or Jon's claim to the IT. Nobody else in Winterfell, other than Jon, seems to trust her or even like her. Lyanna Mormont and the other lords weren't happy with her at all. The only reason they fell in line is because of Jon and they made it very clear.

Nobody else in Winterfell counts only the Lord/Lady. If you mean nobody else referring to the other Lords at Winterfell, they seemed a lot more receptive after the battle at the feast, they all cheered when she was toasted by Tormund...

6 hours ago, Indi said:

Arya didn't tell him that, because she can't stand anyone he falls for. She's more levelheaded than that. The reason is, IMO, because she observed and she wasn't convinced by a foreigner, who hadn't stepped foot on Westeros until a few weeks ago and who pretends to rule them all or else...

"She isn't one of us" cannot mean anything other than 'She isn't a Stark' there's no other way to take that statement. When challenged on it by Jon she even reasserted "I don't need many allies". Anything else is simply your take on it, twisting it to suit a narrative isn't gonna change that. When Cersei told Joffrey "Anyone who isn't us is an enemy" should we take that at face value or put our own twist on that also? You can't have it both ways, we either take statements at face value or we don't.

If your perception were correct then you're saying Arya isn't elitist (only US) instead you're saying she's xenophobic, neither is good.

Dany isn't a foreigner, her heritage is Westerosi, she was born in Westeros, she grew up abroad because she was living in exile. If we apply our world rules, she would have a Westerosi passport, not an Essos one. I know this because I live in the same situation, I was born in another country but have lived in the UK nearly my entire life, yet my passport is from where I was born so I am considered to be that nationality and am technically a foreigner in the UK if anything.

[Indi]

40 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

You comparison doesn't hold water. You aren't a Lord/Lady living in a feudal society and you didn't assent to giving your brother/cousin dominion over you. If you were then yes, you absolutely have to do as he/she has declared, because that's how feudal society works. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It's a simplification, yes, but in the end, it's the same: territorialism. Sansa wants an independent North (her home) and a stranger, a very powerful one, wants to decide everyone's future, including hers. Jon has perfectly reasonable motives to bend the knee to Dany, but that also meant a betrayal of his own oath as KITN. The rest of the lords made it very clear, it was an uneasy temporary acceptance truce.

Quote

If you want a modern compariosn - If you lived, say here in the UK and the Queen (aka a stranger to you unless you have royal connections) came to your house, you wouldn't show her respect and basic courtesy (she does have dominion over you, her face is on the money lol)? No-one said you have to be over the moon about it. But if you were rude, contemptuous or sneering, most people would think that's outrageous.

No, the right comparison would be: If I lived here in the UK and the Queen of Spain came to my place and demanded loyalty and that I accepted her rule. Even if my PM brother ordered me to accept, I would be like: pass.

Quote

You propose an argument that I never made: be over the moon or be an ungrateful brat. There's an entire gulf of attitudes to have inbetween those two extremes.

Well, your argument was that Sansa talking about an independent North was deserving of some kind of rude rebuke. Sansa was actually talking politics and stating very clearly, that their ambitions were at odds. There was nothing ungrateful or impudent about it.

Quote

Nobody else in Winterfell counts only the Lord/Lady. If you mean nobody else referring to the other Lords at Winterfell, they seemed a lot more receptive after the battle at the feast, they all cheered when she was toasted by Tormund...

Being receptive at a party doesn't mean she has the support of those Lords. Dany's isolation, which I hated, BTW, was there for a reason.

Quote

"She isn't one of us" cannot mean anything other than 'She isn't a Stark' there's no other way to take that statement. When challenged on it by Jon she even reasserted "I don't need many allies". Anything else is simply your take on it, twisting it to suit a narrative isn't gonna change that. When Cersei told Joffrey "Anyone who isn't us is an enemy" should we take that at face value or put our own twist on that also? You can't have it both ways, we either take statements at face value or we don't.

Yours it's as good an interpretation as any. I took it to mean "she's not a Northerner".

Quote

If your perception were correct then you're saying Arya isn't elitist (only US) instead you're saying she's xenophobic, neither is good.

That's like saying a common citizen can be an elitist or xenophobic against a foreign invader, who wants to rule your country. 

Quote

Dany isn't a foreigner, her heritage is Westerosi, she was born in Westeros, she grew up abroad because she was living in exile. If we apply our world rules, she would have a Westerosi passport, not an Essos one. I know this because I live in the same situation, I was born in another country but have lived in the UK nearly my entire life, yet my passport is from where I was born so I am considered to be that nationality and am technically a foreigner in the UK if anything.

Dany grew up in an entire different continent and culture for most of her life. No one knows her in Westeros and she doesn't know Westeros. I was also born in a different country, than the one I've lived since I was 4. Now, if I thought I should conquer and rule over my country of birth and expect anything but resistance and loathing, I think people would be justified in calling me delusional. 

[Advance35]

Quote

Most people probably would react more like Sansa in the face of it.

Yeppers.  I feel like Sansa's animosity is one of the few character beats the writers have gotten right.

Throughout Sansa's story, everyone she's been with, they make alliances/truces but NEVER stop working towards their own goal or empowerment.   If Sansa had been genuine and content saying "Winterfell is yours, You're grace."  I would have found that woefully out of character.

Sansa calmly accepting/being content, under the power/at the mercy of anyone else, would also be out of character.  She chaffed being under Jon's control but still worked to keep his/their forces together (even when they were ready to denounce him in Season 7) because they are related.  Dany? Umm No.

I also think Sansa may eventually have company in terms of not wanting to cede power to Dany.  The Dragon Queen hasn't won any Westerosi over with her "charisma" if you're not Tyrion or Jon, most have been following her because of what she can do with her dragons. Now, thanks to her impatience, there is only one left.  Would she be able to hold all Seven Kingdoms without her "children?"  Even if her last dragon survives the war with Cersei, they are vulnerable.

If I were Sansa, The Vale or any other power in Westeros, I would likely be assembling my own Dragon killing weapon, should it become necessary.

OT: I can't believe there are only 2 episodes left.  So many people thought Sansa wouldn't survive to this part in the story and one way or another, we are going to have answers to the fate of all the major characters.   As a book reader, you have know idea how happy this makes me.

[ursula]

2 hours ago, Indi said:

Dany grew up in an entire different continent and culture for most of her life. No one knows her in Westeros and she doesn't know Westeros. I was also born in a different country, than the one I've lived since I was 4. Now, if I thought I should conquer and rule over my country of birth and expect anything but resistance and loathing, I think people would be justified in calling me delusional. 

To reiterate @SilverStormm's point: That's a false equivalent.

You are not the heir to a monarchy, and part of a still existing feudal society. And if you/it were and the society had now turned democratic, then you've "lost your chance" so to speak to reclaim that heritage. None of which applies to Dany and Westeros.

But your citizenship should still allow you to run for political office. You will still have the right to claim or reclaim any lands or properties that your family owned before you left, as long as you have legal right (the natural heir or a Will stating you are one).  You might have to oust some settlers in court or by other means, but it would be perfectly in your right to and not considered an "invasion".

And frankly, this line of argument is offensive. 

Dany and Sansa are fictional characters. War refugees are not. Making the argument that someone who was driven out of their home to stay alive has thus forfeited the right to that home is unacceptable, hurtful and galling.

Dany didn't leave Westeros by choice. She didn't get the chance to know or be known in Westeros when she spent her formative years hiding, begging, running, knowing that the fate of Aegon and Rhaenys awaited her. And of course, she has the right to want to return home and reclaim her family's home, fortune and seat of power. 

It doesn't matter if it happened when she was 2 days old, 2 years old or 20 years old. 

5 hours ago, Indi said:

Right. If a stranger came to my house and told me they'd rule over me, because my brother/cousin said so, I should be over the moon or I would be an ungrateful brat.

 

Only this  is exactly what Sansa Stark did to the Umbers and the Karstarks. The Umbers supported the legal Warden of the North (the Boltons) and the Karstarks "seceded" from Robb's War when he killed their Lord. But Sansa won Winterfell and threatened to drive them out of their homes for not kneeling to her. 

By your argument, Sansa Stark insisting on reclaiming Winterfell and the Northern seat of power was delusional. It was an unpopular decision that the Northern lords received with "contempt and loathing". They didn't win the North with "hearts and minds". They won it with brute force. Jon and Sansa invaded the North with an army of foreigners (wildlings - fricking wildlings! - and Vale soliders) and one lone Northern army to attack the legitimate Warden of the North and his bannermen. And when they took power, they punished those who refused to "bend the knee" - even though - by your argument - the Umbers and the Karstarks hadn't broken any laws and had the right to not support an invading wannabe Lady of Winterfell.

But when the Starks do it, that's fine? 

Edited May 11, 2019 by ursula

[Maximum Taco]

3 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

Dany isn't a foreigner, her heritage is Westerosi, she was born in Westeros, she grew up abroad because she was living in exile. If we apply our world rules, she would have a Westerosi passport, not an Essos one. I know this because I live in the same situation, I was born in another country but have lived in the UK nearly my entire life, yet my passport is from where I was born so I am considered to be that nationality and am technically a foreigner in the UK if anything.

True, but you are just a citizen (I'm assuming) and not the leader of your birth country. And while you may legally be allowed to run for office there (assuming your birth country is a democratic one that allows citizens to run for office, and is not the USA, which requires residency in the US for the past 14 years) you can bet your boots if you tried people would bring up the fact that you had never lived in the country you sought to lead/rule. You aren't "One of them" to borrow the phrase. 

The point being that Dany is not technically a foreigner, but she practically is. 

Edited May 11, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[sistermagpie]

26 minutes ago, ursula said:

But when the Starks do it, that's fine? 

Soemtimes yes. I mean, doesn't this all go to the heart of the matter? There is no real divine right of ruling. Dany's claim to the throne is perfectly logical. Nobody's confused by it. People were even willing to kill her over it. But that's partly because people get that the whole idea of having a "right" to rule only exists in peoples' minds. Plenty of examples of people convincing others that somebody not following the standard succession should "really" be the ruler.

The Starks ruling the North is just an accident of birth. But the Northerners are somewhat comfortable with this tradition. It feels right to them. They don't have a problem with a Stark saying this is their country or whatever. They've never felt as comfortable about being one of 7 kingdoms ruled by the Iron Throne. The attitude Sansa is expressing is even older than the one Dany is.

This is the attitude Dany faces in the North. Nobody denies that Jon bending the knee means they're now under her rule, but that whole idea of respect of the monarch is not something they feel so they don't express it. Just as plenty of people would express that about the Queen of England even if they were English. Sansa and Dany are both acting on behavior and expectations they think they're entitled to in this situation. The Northerners don't grow up feeling completely respectful of the person who sits on the IT and Dany doesn't even do that yet.

Meanwhile Tyrion's talking about how quickly the people of KL will turn on Cersei, their queen. Sure ideally there's supposed to be this automatic feeling of respect and deference for a monarch, but they've watched people play the game of thrones for a while now and they're going to have their own opinions and preferred narratives.

Edited May 11, 2019 by sistermagpie