Jump to content
Forums forums
PRIMETIMER

maraleia

S04.E09: Two Trains

Recommended Posts


So either Louise was involved in Cullen's gameplan or I am done with this show.  Guess I find out next week if the show committed the most tired lesbian storyline trope of them all or if it was a strategy.  Hopefully the latter as I would miss this show. 

Edited by dohe
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

I am not looking forward to more Sidney Snow.  I hope they end his story next week because if they drag it out like the Swede's saga then I'm out.  I can't take much more of this.

 

Mickey really took one for the team; glad to see him teaming up with Cullen.

 

I know the promos can be deceiving, but I hope Ruth wasn't crying because Ezra is dead.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

I loved that episode. That's everything I like about westerns--showdowns, shootouts, an exciting train adventure...even the engineer delivered for Cullen's side. I thought for a minute he was gonna curl up in a ball Jeremy Davies style and sit out the whole gunfight.

 

Cullen was like the bogeyman in that episode. You didn't know where he was or how or when he was going to strike. It was funny how the carpetbaggers and Sidney were so leery of one man. It was touching how much faith Psalms and the other prisoners had in that one man's ability to save them.

 

 

Mickey really took one for the team; glad to see him teaming up with Cullen.

 

I love those two together, and Mickey really did sacrifice his body. You can just imagine the conversation between Cullen and him...

 

Cullen: Okay, we're going to get you arrested and you're going to be hiding the handcuff keys in your pants. So you're going to let Sidney and the other guys beat and torture you for a while, and once they think they've broken you,  that's when you...

Mickey: Wait, wait wait, let's go back to the "beating and torturing part..."

 

I'm afraid Sidney has gone back to Cheyenne to hurt whomever he thinks might hurt Cullen the most.  I just don't know who that is. I mean, I know who it is--Ezra and Ruth--but is Sidney in any position to know that? I sure hope not. I love Ezra. And I loved how happy he was when he was eavesdropping and heard Cullen planning to make a stand. Cullen is such a hero to him.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post

I couldn't figure out if Louise was in on the plan with Cullen or not.  I kept looking at her shaved armpits and legs and it got me wondering if women really did shave in those days.

 

I was sorry that Cullen lost a few men, but at least they went out fighting.

Edited by Ohwell

Share this post


Link to post

I really hope that Louise was involved in Cullen's plans to outwit Campbell. If not then I might be done with the show as well dohe. I hate it when lesbian characters are sacrificed in the name of stupid storytelling and I hope I'm wrong this time.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

I think Louise probably was in on it. Although I can't imagine Cullen ever suggesting she seduce Campbell as a distraction, I can see him asking her to play on his obvious interest in her and keep him occupied at a certain time that day. She may have decided there was only one sure way to do that. Since she is a sexually experienced woman, I have to think her obvious nervousness was due to what she was planning, not having a tryst with Campbell. 

 

I kinda hate when the female actors in  these period shows throw their arms up, because then I have to confront the whole shaven/unshaven thing. It's a distraction to me if I see hair there. It's a distraction to me if I don't, because I don't think it's period-correct. I remember Alma in Deadwood sporting hair on her underarms and legs, for example. I always prefer it when they keep their arms down or in shadow so I can just ignore it.. Maybe as a upper class northerner prior to coming to the railroad, Louise was exposed to more sophisticated grooming practices? 

Share this post


Link to post

Yes, this was a great episode.  Cullen was a  man on a mission and everyone knew it. But please, end Snow next week. He has overstayed his welcome. BTW, when the gatling gun made its appearance it was no surprise. We all knew it was coming, right?

Share this post


Link to post

Welcome back, Cullen.  So.  Much.  Better.  No Swede.  No Mormons or Snitty Mormon Wife.  Just the classic Western this show does so well when it's not bogged down with half a dozen bits of pointlessness.

 

Loved Mickey proving he actually can be trusted to stick to a plan and take some pretty hard treatment when the chips are down.  Loved Cullen and Durant fighting on the same side and Cullen's wry bemusement that if felt like old times.  Loved Delaney finally proving he's not just inept comic relief and hauling out the Gatling gun. I just loved everything about it.

 

I can't remember if we've ever been told Louise is a lesbian or just that she's had at least one poorly kept secret relationship with a woman and finds other women attractive.  I've always rather liked her so if she wasn't supposed to be keeping Campbell distracted and decided on her own that this was how she would go about it, I'm going to be seriously disappointed with both her and the show.

Edited by nodorothyparker

Share this post


Link to post

I can't remember if we've ever been told Louise is a lesbian or just that she's had at least one poorly kept secret relationship with a woman and finds other women attractive.  I've always rather liked her so if she wasn't supposed to be keeping Campbell distracted and decided on her own that this was how she would go about it, I'm going to be seriously disappointed with both her and the show.

 

Or she could be bisexual.  Holy moley, that was probably considered even worse than being a lesbian back then!  ;)

Share this post


Link to post

Yeah, that's what I meant.  I know her backstory is that she was sent west and exiled from New York for having a thing with her publisher's daughter.  And Eva seemed to think that's where her attention was heading last season.  But I don't think she's ever been established as exclusively a lesbian as much as the menfolk all assuming that must be the case.

 

If she's a bisexual who was choosing to seduce Campbell to keep him distracted, great.

Share this post


Link to post

I was wondering what everyone thought about Campbell's "seduction" of Louise. It was aggressive, like this guy could totally go S&M if given the opportunity. It was not loving, in my view. Not like Cullen and Lily. 

Edited by riverheightsnancy
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

Yeah, at first I actually thought Louise was in danger when Campbell started undressing her.  He looked like he was sizing up a side of beef.  Definitely not romantic or loving. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

I'm glad I am reading how everyone is happy with this episode. I haven't seen it yet, but now am looking forward to do so. I would hate to give up on this show because of shitty writing. I love Anson Mount and I'm loving the Psalms character and Durrant. This western has SO much potential to go down as great if they don't muck it up. I can't stand that Sidney Snow and the carpetbaggers. Does any think Ruth and Cullen with Ezra would be good or should it be left alone? Oh wow, I have already forgotten about his wife and baby!

Edited by kathybgd

Share this post


Link to post

I thought that was pretty good. (I'm a bit nervous about where things will go next week, so it's difficult to give the ep a "great".) Poor Mickey, though! I liked Cullen's scene with Maggie. She's been given a little more backstory each time we see her, and I think the overall picture of the character by the end of the series will be quite a powerful one.

  I thought Louise was definitely keeping Campbell occupied. Her reaction shots during the Cullen/Campbell confrontation last ep hardly seemed to set the tryst as a next step, nor even a possibility. (I'd forgotten that she had had a same-gender history, but she's never really interested me much.)

  Whatever else happens, they need to dispense with Snow,  and NOT turn him into another Swede.

Share this post


Link to post

I think the writers tried to start something with Ruth and Cullen in season 3 then they dropped it and gave us the "shotgun wedding" instead.

Unless something happens to Naomi or the baby I think Cullens fate is sealed.

Edited by TwoSocks

Share this post


Link to post

I share that concern about Snow because Hell on Wheels has shown some disinclination to develop exit arcs for its villains.  The Swede has hung around way too long (IMO) and I don't find Snow even partially as interesting as Gundersson was in the early going.

 

I missed a couple of episodes (one due to disinterest and the other to lack of cable) but this did feel like a classic episode.  The train job was a lot of fun to watch with the non-stop action, and the character touches of Mickey taking a beating, Durant not losing his arrogance for even a second and Bohannon out-thinking everyone.  The look of glee on his face when he unhooked the carriage was great. 

 

I am having issues with some of the characters though.  I miss the Eva I liked in earlier seasons and I wish Elam had never met that bear.  I was willing to like Naomi and William, and I still think that marriage could have developed in an interesting and organic way.  I don't like her going back to Fort Smith because part of why she left was due to her mother's determination that Naomi change William's name and help raise him as her brother.  Mickey's been a bit uneven this season, but I do like that Psalms has become a main player.  I wasn't sure about Louise and Campbell, but they seemed to understand each other in a way I didn't expect so I'm willing to go with it for now.  This probably was the best episode of the season so far. 

Share this post


Link to post

I am totally into the idea of Cullen and Ruth and Ezra being a family.  I think Naomi is going to die (along with other people) at Fort Smith at the hands of the Swede. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

This was more like familiar Mickey. I could really believe that he would take that beating to help support Cullen's plan. He always was on Cullen's side, and it felt true to the character. I knew he hadn't told the truth in his "confession" but the key surprised me.

 

The scene between Louise and Campbell was interesting. I wouldn't expect anything soft or romancy from Campbell, yet it didn't veer into abuse territory (a good thing). There was a slight lightness in his demeanor when Louise agreed to join him for a meal, so who knows what's underneath the surface. I, too, hope that Louise intended a distraction, but clearly he wasn't so distracted that he couldn't stop for a conversation and to give direction.

 

If it wasn't a distraction and Louise is bisexual, well, shows have done the reverse where a woman was with a man, and even in love, and then falls for a woman, and is then only with women from then on. (And yes, more so where it seems "all a lesbian needs is a good man." If Louise went out of interest, hopefully they'll clearly note that she likes both genders.)

 

What distracted me was: Cullen walks quickly here, and then walks there, and then walks back over there again. There was lots of it and while I understand that he was trying to set up a plan, it kept taking me out of the story. Jumping onto the train and unhooking the rail car was a great touch.

 

Also a nice touch with Psalms grudgingly giving Bohannon respect as the one who could save them. He was all that was left at that point, I guess, but I liked the admission possibly setting up some kind of peace between them.

 

Yes, please, dispatch with Sidney Snow quickly please. There were some very good elements and nice classic Western touches in this episode, but I'm not fully back on board just yet.

Share this post


Link to post

Clearly if Louise did not do it as a distraction, it is playing all the lesbian needs is a strong man card.  There has been zilch to show Louise has any romantic inclinations towards men.  And while we can say the reverse has been done (a woman only with men falling for a woman), there is a mammoth difference between the two.  Closet case bisexual women and lesbians hiding they are interested in women or closet case bisexual men and gay men hiding they are interested in men is hardly uncommon now let alone in the 1800's.  However for a bisexual woman or man to have hidden their attraction to the opposite sex in the 1800's is nonsensical.

 

There are two possibilities.  Either Louise did this to help out Cullen or the show is indulging in that annoying cliché which seems to define so many lesbians on tv.  I am optimistic it is the former.  The latter just makes no sense and comes across as a retcon of Louise in more ways than just her sexuality. 

 

BTW, if anyone is looking for bisexual representation, excellent portrayals include Brenna on Chasing Life and Kalinda on The Good Wife - with the exception of that idiotic subplot with the ex-husband.  I do wish there were stronger bisexual male representations on tv.  Joe on Halt and Catch Fire and Frank on House of Cards are the only ones that come to mind. 

Edited by dohe
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

Not trying to start an argument, but I don't think anything is clear where Louise is concerned, except for the thing with her publisher's daughter. Almost nothing has been shown. She turned down Eva, so she either just wasn't interested in Eva or was particularly not wanting to take advantage of the situation; they never brought it up again. She wasn't put off by Cullen kissing her during their dance, which could mean anything or nothing. To me, it seemed more like surprise and possibly being intrigued since she said, "What was that for?" rather than something like, "Please don't do that." Again, they didn't revisit it, so there's no way to really know; I've only stated my impression. But that's the extent of it with Louise. There hasn't been enough shown of her character to really know much of anything about her. Maybe it was all part of the plan. Maybe TPTB are planning on having her throw her history aside for a strong man. Maybe she is bisexual. I have no idea because they've shown so little of her in any respect that to me, nothing is clear yet.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post

I thought this episode was a big zzzzz. More pointless running around shooting each other. You could just skip ahead to the last five minutes to find out who's dead. 

Share this post


Link to post

The sequence with Eva was to demonstrate that Eva had caught on that Louise liked women and that Louise, knowing Eva was offering herself at that moment to pay back kindness, had an integrity not to expect a sexual favor in return.  There was nothing indicated in the exchange with Cullen of romantic attraction from her at all. 

 

Both lesbian and bisexual female depiction is lacking on tv as it is.  If the show wants to depict female bisexuality that is great.  However to have a character, who to this point has been depicted as showing no interest in men and shown as a lesbian, having sex with a man is the same old cliché and, in this case, is not believable with what they have shown of Louise in terms of her integrity (a strong newspaper woman caving in to scum who, in her own words, made a murderer a sheriff). 

 

Again hopefully this was part of a strategy to unseat Campbell.  Otherwise a sad ending to what has been a good show.  Though to be fair it was already of concern with me for having it's first appearance of gay men turn out to be one and maybe two sadistic scum* who work for Campbell.  If that had been it, I would be ready to hang in.  But if we have back to back clichés play out.  Nope.

 

It wasn't made clear if the guy who beat up Durant had a requited or unrequited love with the dead sheriff.

Edited by dohe

Share this post


Link to post

The sequence with Eva was to demonstrate that Eva had caught on that Louise liked women and that Louise, knowing Eva was offering herself at that moment to pay back kindness, had an integrity not to expect a sexual favor in return.  There was nothing indicated in the exchange with Cullen of romantic attraction from her at all.

 

Both lesbian and bisexual female depiction is lacking on tv as it is.  If the show wants to depict female bisexuality that is great.  However to have a character, who to this point has been depicted as showing no interest in men and shown as a lesbian, having sex with a man is the same old cliché and, in this case, is not believable with what they have shown of Louise in terms of her integrity (a strong newspaper woman caving in to scum who, in her own words, made a murderer a sheriff).

 

Again hopefully this was part of a strategy to unseat Campbell.

I have to agree that I was confused about Louise "suddenly" coming on to Campbell and having sex with him.  There was nothing in previous episodes that would lead me to believe that she was sexually interested in men, not even fine Cullen.  So I'm hoping that this was just part of a strategy to unseat Campbell.  To be honest, I was upset with her for even having dinner with him last week, knowing that he appointed a child-killer as sheriff.  I hope this was also part of a strategy to soften Campbell up.  If not, I have no respect for her because she consorts with scum.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

I think the writers tried to start something with Ruth and Cullen in season 3 then they dropped it and gave us the "shotgun wedding" instead.

Unless something happens to Naomi or the baby I think Cullens fate is sealed.

I don't know, and I can't know for sure, but I feel like Mormons may have different rules, especially back then, when it came to marriage, divorce and moving past a man that no one in the community thought was good for you.  Maybe after a few years she can get some sort of annulment and be free to marry again.  Her family seems to want William as their own son, so they could take him, raise him as their own and she could be free to marry again.  The look of resigned disdain at the end of the last episode certainly made it seem as though she doesn't think Cullen is coming back.  I mean even if everything were to run perfectly, building the railroad is going to take years, and she isn't sure he has plans to come back.  So maybe she tries to use whatever is available in the faith to make herself a free woman again.  I get the impression Cullen would not be opposed to something that gets him out of that situation so easily.

Share this post


Link to post

The thing is Cullen has already lost one family. Is he prepared to lose another?

Thats a good point/question.  My only thought would be that when Cullen had his first family, he was fully invested, he was happy, the war hadn't happened yet.  He went into that family happy and loving.  The war and whatever happened broke him, and so I don't ever think he was fully invested in the Naomi family to the point where he would be as shattered as he was by the loss of the first.  BUT, I think it would break him in two if Naomi and William were to die.  I don't think it can go down like that.  I think its different when people leave vs. dying.  If Elam had simply decided, way back before the bear attack, that he wanted to take Eva, leave and live somewhere else, I think Cullen would have managed fine.  But that Elam died (and at his hand) really tore at him.  And I think he was far more attached to Elam than he is to Naomi/William.  So, I think the two of them dying wouldn't work at all for Cullen, but I think that maybe the two of them resolving (at Naomi's insistence, because Cullen won't shirk his responsibility) that Naomi and William forge a life in the Mormon camp, and it would be better if Cullen just lets them move on....I think he'll be fine with that.  While Cullen may not be Mormon, I think he would realize that his child would be well cared for and loved and that Naomi would be happy, and better off without him because he is so broken.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
I, too, hope that Louise intended a distraction, but clearly he wasn't so distracted that he couldn't stop for a conversation and to give direction.

 

 

I don't care if she was a lesbian and the writing betrayed her or whatever. But if she did seduce Campbell as part of Cullen's plan, then there must be more plan coming, because that was a hell of a thing to ask her do do, gay or straight, just to keep Campbell busy. There must have been a dozen other ways to accomplish that, including just getting him drunk. Mickey, at least, had to get the key into the jail cell. There was a physical thing he had to do, and he took a beating to do it. Louise so far was just a distraction. I could see Eva doing that for the team, but there hasn't been much so far that shows Louise would do it unless there is something else tied to it.

Edited by Ottis
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

Thats a good point/question.  My only thought would be that when Cullen had his first family, he was fully invested, he was happy, the war hadn't happened yet.  He went into that family happy and loving.  The war and whatever happened broke him, and so I don't ever think he was fully invested in the Naomi family to the point where he would be as shattered as he was by the loss of the first.  BUT, I think it would break him in two if Naomi and William were to die.  I don't think it can go down like that.

 

I think we've been shown enough to believe that he did genuinely love his first wife and son, but he also told Elam last season before the Mormon attack that he'd been restless and really really hated farming and everything that went along with it.  The irony of course being that he ended the season behind a plow with a new ready-made family.  For all that he did some really bad things during and after the war, you get the sense that he was more naturally in his element there and probably would have continued along that path (like Sidney Snow) had he not found the railroad and his purpose within it.

 

At this point, he's tried and failed with another family, with the idea that his heart really just isn't in it.  Maybe it never will be.  I get the feeling that if something were to happen to Naomi and the baby, he'd be eaten up more by a personal sense that he failed them than any real notion of their loss as individuals.  He really just doesn't have that connection with either of them.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

It was almost a great episode. Almost, because it got Sidney Snow away. If the show makes him another unbeatable villain that last across seasons a la Gundersen, this is my last season. Even then, if it keeps Gundersen, I am also out. They do not have to be killed. They could have been sent away somewhere and never return.

 

In any way, I have to suspend my believe on Snow's escaping. They were bombarded by the Gatling gun. Mickey had men flanking the train. How did he escape to the same side of the train Mickey and his men were located? As well, where and how did he escape? He had no horse and they were in a plain. There was really no place for him to hide, was there?

Share this post


Link to post

Syd and Cullen are old army buddies I believe. Neither one wants to kill the other I don't think. Its like theyre playing some kind of game.

Ruth tried to tell Cullen how dangerous Syd was but Im not sure he was listening or didn't want to hear. I know these are fictional characters but youd think they have more sense. Something is going to have to happen to change their minds or at least Cullens.

Share this post


Link to post

They might have been army buddies, but I don't think that there's any question that Cullen wants to kill Sidney Snow now.

Share this post


Link to post

I loved this episode! It was great to see Cullen back again. I was surprised to see Louise having sex with a man. I thought she was a lesbian. But then I thought maybe she also likes it a rough and that creep was the ticket. It doesn't ruin it for me. I know lesbians that will have sex with a man but would rather have it with a woman. Maybe she is bisexual. I was more concerned with her not being on Cullen's side. So I do hope she was just helping out in her way. I think people are silly when they say the character didn't go the way I wanted so I'm no longer going to watch! Don't watch,  then won't make comments here. Honestly HOL never really came out strongly about Louise being a full on Lesbian. I'm rather insulted that a strong woman running a newspaper just has to be a Lesbian or a man or a man type. Jeez how cliche is that?! There are so many series that change a character so drastically that it makes your head spin and those survive high viewership. Tara in True Blood comes to mind. I would have loved her character if she was portrayed as a lesbian right from the start. What mattered to me was that she had hot hot sex with Sam and was so in love with Jason and then...bam! before you know she's full on Lesbian. That made no sense but then that was the crappiest vampire show I ever watched. I love when a character changes for a reason and that reason is given. For instance I could see that woman Elam dragged back to Cheyenne becoming more interested in woman because they are kind to her and then realizing that it's women that satisfies her needs and has all along. She lives in a world where that is just not accepted but it's something that is supressed in her that she can't let out to survive. That would be real to me.

Colm Meaney is a fabulous actor. I loved that look he gave Cullen so telling in just one look.

Share this post


Link to post

 

In any way, I have to suspend my believe on Snow's escaping.

It was fairly tall grass out on the plain, so he could be hiding relatively close, still well armed,  and waiting till Bohannen's men leave to pick up and go wherever he's going.  I sensed that Bohannen was not to keen on chasing after him through that tall grass. 

 

I don't care what her sexual orientation is; if Louise's motive was anything other than distraction to enable Bohannen's  plot to move forward, I have lost all respect for her. 

 

I wonder what the circulation of the Cheyenne Leader is.  It strikes me as somewhat superfulous to publish a story about "A Known Killer Hired as Marshal" in a small town where pretty much everyone is already well aware of that fact.

Share this post


Link to post

I'm not sure about Louise's motivation here. I think there are four possibilties:

 

1. She's in on Cullen's plan and did it to distract. I don't think Cullen asked her to seduce the Governor, I'm pretty sure that part was her idea.

2. She did it to get closer to a source, who she's planning to destroy in print once she has enough information about him.

3. She did it to get closer to the power in town, which would somehow improve her situation.

4. She just wanted to have sex with him.

 

Of these, I think #3 is highly unlikely, and #4 only slightly less so.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

They might have been army buddies, but I don't think that there's any question that Cullen wants to kill Sidney Snow now.

I don't think they were buddies. Cullen was a Colonel commanding some type of raid. Snow was just a soldier, maybe from another regiment who was on that raid which he considered the highlight of his life. Much like Al Bundy talking about his high school football records. he will always remember that mission.

Edited by Raja

Share this post


Link to post

I used the term "buddies" loosely.  They were "buddies" in the sense that they were fighting on the same side.

Edited by Ohwell

Share this post


Link to post

Whatever Cullen and Snow are to each other lets hope Cullen hasn't left it to late to deal with him. There seems to be some reluctance there on both parts.

Edited by TwoSocks

Share this post


Link to post

Whatever Cullen and Snow are to each other lets hope Cullen hasn't left it to late to deal with him. There seems to be some reluctance there on both parts.

I do not need to see those Sidney Snow chompers for another season on my screen.  I'm gonna need for HOW writers to buck up, and lets get him dead before the end of the season.  Maybe another angry bear, I don't care.

Share this post


Link to post

In my opinion, the difference in the Swede and Sidney in their roles as anagonists is that there is no humor found in the Swede.  At least Sidney is a humorous villain in his verbal and facial expressions.  It's a Southern thing, although the actor playing him is Canadian.

Share this post


Link to post

I think Snow will be gone soon. Not before he raises some more havoc though. Don't know about the Swede. I don't think Cullen has seen the last of him either. Someone tried to tell me today Naomi is back this week as well. The actress playing Naomi seems to be getting a lot of hype for a relatively small part. Perhaps she is here to stay.

Share this post


Link to post
×
×
  • Create New...

Customize font-size