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S02.E08: Who Are You?

Mr. Sparkle

By Mr. Sparkle
in Andor

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sashabear21

sashabear21

Well I wasn't planning on spending the evening sobbing over genocide on a fictional planet, but here we are.  I figured that we'd get to spend time in Ghorman to make the brutality of what the Empire was planning even worse than if we just saw them destroy the people on some redshirt Jeff planet, but man that was a hard watch.  I did love that Cassian had no idea he'd been living rent free in Syril's head this entire time. 

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thuganomics85

thuganomics85

Yup, I can see why this is currently one of the highest rated episodes on IMDB right now.

I knew everything in Ghorman was all heading for some kind of massacre, but I was still surprised over how emotionally brutal it was.  The Ghorman rebels really were put in a no win situation, and actually showing us how the Empire was planning everything and watching it all unfold really was twisting the knife.  Right down to even willingly sending some of their inexperienced, younger soldiers into the fold and knowing they will not make it out alive.  No wonder the likes of Luthen and Saw are needed to even make this a competition.  With evil like that as the opposition, clean hands will be hard to find.

A lot of Ghorman deaths; including some of the recurring rebels; but we did get one big Imperial death in the form of old Syril!  A fitting end since he goes out knowing that he was just a pawn for the Empire to get precious minerals instead of the greater good or whatever shit he had cooked up in his head.  And he realized that Dedra had been keeping it from him this entire time.  Oh, and when he finally has his big showdown with Cassian, he finds out that Cassian didn't even know who he was.  I almost felt bad for him.  Almost.  But credit to Kyle Soller though, because he made Syril one to remember.

Dedra did seem sincerely upset over him leaving and then I guess finding out about his death, so I do wonder if she cared for him more than she expected.

Diego Luna's facial acting during that final montage.... perfection.

Oh, shit, are we getting the origins of K-2SO soon?!

Excellent episode.

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Ohiopirate02

Ohiopirate02

8 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

The singing in the square reminded me of Casablanca. (Resistance through song/national culture).

Same. And now I am wondering how the writers came up with that anthem. The went French for Ghorman, but the Ghorman anthem is nothing like La Marseillaise. It's all peaceful and extolling to beauty of Ghorman with nary a "the blood of the impure will flood the fields" in sight. I do appreciate the French actor singing the Ghorman anthem with just as much fervor as any Frenchman singing La Marseillaise.

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Ohiopirate02

Ohiopirate02

41 minutes ago, KeithJ said:

I am now a little confused about Dedra. She knew all along what the Empire was doing on Ghorman and seemed to be on board with it. Now, after it happened, she's all broken up about it (I don't think that was for Syril). Speaking of Syril, I'm also surprised how she allowed him to manhandle her like that. She seemed to be the alpha in that relationship.

I honestly think Dedra is feeling a whole host of emotions due to Syril rejecting her and his death. She found what she thought was the perfect man that she could mold into what she needed in a partner and also further her ISB ambitions. I think she may feel a little bit sad at his passing and a bit of guilt for not realizing how fragile he truly was. She's also probably afraid that his death may reflect badly on her and her operation. The last is most likely not going to happen. We saw how little the Empire thinks of the grunts in their armed forces. To them, Syril was always just another useful tool thr Empire could use to further their goals and then discard.

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Shanna Marie

Shanna Marie

22 hours ago, Fool to cry said:

Syril could have had a chance at redemption but he just couldn't let his hate of Cassian go.

He kept me guessing until the end. He turned against Dedra once he realized what was going on, and he seemed to be horrified by what was happening. I really thought he'd changed sides and would be redeemed -- and then wham, he tackles Cassian and brutally tries to kill him. He just couldn't get over that.

2 hours ago, SeanBug said:

I forgot about Casablanca, I got Les Mis vibes from the singing in the Plaza. 

It was kind of a mash-up of both, as I got the impression that the song was some kind of planetary anthem (with maybe a dash of the scene in which everyone sings "Edelweiss" at the singing competition in defiance of the Nazis in The Sound of Music). The scene of the troopers forcing their way through the crowd also had echoes of the infamous Bible photo op during the BLM protests, with the troops fighting their way through protesters who had been peaceful and it turning into something more intense.

2 hours ago, KeithJ said:

I am now a little confused about Dedra. She knew all along what the Empire was doing on Ghorman and seemed to be on board with it. Now, after it happened, she's all broken up about it (I don't think that was for Syril).

I think to some extent it was reality crashing in. She was able to make all those plans in the abstract. It was numbers and calculations and charts and graphs. And then when it actually unfolded in front of her it became real. I've seen several people (including Denise Gough) refer to Dedra as a psychopath, someone who doesn't feel empathy, who doesn't consider that other people have feelings, wishes, desires, plans, and so she was able to make plans about a genocide without a qualm, but maybe she's not so far gone that she can't watch horror on that scale, knowing she brought it about, and not feel anything. I don't think she yet knew Syril's fate, so she wasn't reacting to his death, but she may have been reacting to his judgment and his contempt. I wonder if she also had some lingering PTSD from Ferrix and being caught in that riot. This one was planned, so it wasn't all falling apart around her the way that one did, but it might still have brought back some horror.

This whole episode was so tight, focused entirely on this one event without checking in on any other characters, aside from the glimpses of Syril's mother watching the news. And everyone gave such great facial expressions, since there wasn't a lot of dialogue. Dedra's occasional breaks in her stony expression, Syril's growing shock and horror, Cassian's horror and sadness. I've called Rogue One the Saving Private Ryan of Star Wars, but this was similar in the brutality and immersion of the audience into the horror.

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Raja

Raja

On 5/6/2025 at 8:59 PM, Fool to cry said:

Syril could have had a chance at redemption but he just couldn't let his hate of Cassian go.

Syril, in this episode did nothing wrong. He was angry at empire and his "wife"? But in the end, as an ex cop maybe some sort of financial crimes agent he saw not a rebel to the empire but a fugitive, a suspected of his pre rebel times murderer. The one who got away who Syril went after him unarmed in a time of chaos. 

He may have been on the wrong side, but he was an enemy for whom we can salute their service and sacrifice.

On 5/6/2025 at 9:32 PM, sashabear21 said:

I did love that Cassian had no idea he'd been living rent free in Syril's head this entire time. 

I need to refresh, did Cassian ever know he was being hunted for the pre rebel operative murder? I thought he was just shocked that in that battle one "civilian" just went after him so hard. 

11 hours ago, KeithJ said:

I am now a little confused about Dedra. She knew all along what the Empire was doing on Ghorman and seemed to be on board with it. Now, after it happened, she's all broken up about it (I don't think that was for Syril). Speaking of Syril, I'm also surprised how she allowed him to manhandle her like that. She seemed to be the alpha in that relationship.

I was wondering if she was a sex partner to control him, but in the end I think she was into Syril as the love of her life. When Syril used his physical strength against her I think it was the fear she had before he saved her on Ferrix.

 

tennisgurl

tennisgurl

I knew it was coming, but they weren't kidding about how horrifying the Ghorman massacre would be, that was just so intense, I am pretty sure I looked just as shocked as the characters were. Things escalated so quickly and so violently, even devoted company man Syril was disgusted, I can see why this was hyped as being the seasons biggest showcase so far. 

In the end, I felt bad for Syril and am actually sad that he died just as he realized who he had been working for all along. In the narrative he made in his head, he was the hero fighting against the evil insurgents and everything he did in the service of the Empire was for the greater good, and finding out the petty evil reasons why the Empire did this truly crushed him. He could have even turned on the Empire for real, but his single minded obsession with Cassian did him in. 

There is something pretty darkly hilarious about Cassian truly having no idea who Syril even is, even as Syril has been utterly obsessed with him for years now. Cassian might have been the villain of the story Syril tells himself, but Syril is just a minor cameo in Cassian's. 

Its made even worse knowing that all of this, all of this pointless death, the erasure of a vibrant culture, families torn apart, lives destroyed, is for some stupid building material that is going to be used for the sake of even more mass murder, and will end up leading to Cassian's own death eventually. 

I definitely got the Casablanca vibes from the singing as a way to show resistance. 

  • Like 11
Raja

Raja

25 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

There is something pretty darkly hilarious about Cassian truly having no idea who Syril even is, even as Syril has been utterly obsessed with him for years now. Cassian might have been the villain of the story Syril tells himself, but Syril is just a minor cameo in Cassian's. 

Nothing "might" about in my opinion. Syril was not hunting a rebel those years ago he was hunting a cop killer. One who suddenly appeared before him during what he probably thought of as an illegal and immoral Imperial black op.

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Shanna Marie

Shanna Marie

42 minutes ago, Raja said:

Nothing "might" about in my opinion. Syril was not hunting a rebel those years ago he was hunting a cop killer.

Alleged cop killer. We know Cassian did it, but Syril only ever had circumstantial evidence -- that someone who looked kind of like Cassian and who was from Kenari got hassled by the cops in the bar, and then Cassian's ship took off and went to Ferrix soon afterward. Syril's boss warned him that the security guards shouldn't have been where they were and were probably trying to shake someone down. A halfway decent defense attorney in a functioning legal system wouldn't have broken a sweat getting Cassian acquitted. While Cassian was guilty, Syril's problems were more about him appointing himself judge, jury, and executioner and going in with a task force and guns blazing than about anything Cassian did. But Cassian made for a nice scapegoat who represented everything that was wrong with Syril's life, and running into him at the precise moment when Syril's life was falling apart yet again in the middle of a riot made Syril lose all reason, even though Cassian's presence had nothing to do with Syril's failure this time. It was just a coincidence that every time Syril's life takes a turn for the worse, Andor seems to be involved.

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Raja

Raja

16 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Alleged cop killer. We know Cassian did it, but Syril only ever had circumstantial evidence -- that someone who looked kind of like Cassian and who was from Kenari got hassled by the cops in the bar, and then Cassian's ship took off and went to Ferrix soon afterward. Syril's boss warned him that the security guards shouldn't have been where they were and were probably trying to shake someone down. A halfway decent defense attorney in a functioning legal system wouldn't have broken a sweat getting Cassian acquitted. While Cassian was guilty, Syril's problems were more about him appointing himself judge, jury, and executioner and going in with a task force and guns blazing than about anything Cassian did. But Cassian made for a nice scapegoat who represented everything that was wrong with Syril's life, and running into him at the precise moment when Syril's life was falling apart yet again in the middle of a riot made Syril lose all reason, even though Cassian's presence had nothing to do with Syril's failure this time. It was just a coincidence that every time Syril's life takes a turn for the worse, Andor seems to be involved.

"In the criminal justice system, the people are represented by two separate yet equally important groups: the police, who investigate crime; and the district attorneys, who prosecute the offenders." Syril was just the cop 😉

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Sarah 103

Sarah 103

20 hours ago, SeanBug said:

I forgot about Casablanca, I got Les Mis vibes from the singing in the Plaza. 

In my opinion, the arrival into the plaza with the flags was Les Mis. When they stop chanting and start singing, that's Casablanca. 

17 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

It was kind of a mash-up of both, as I got the impression that the song was some kind of planetary anthem (with maybe a dash of the scene in which everyone sings "Edelweiss" at the singing competition in defiance of the Nazis in The Sound of Music).

The scene in Casablanca and "Edelweiss" at the singing competition in Sound of Music have definite similarities. It is pride in national culture/heritage and defiance of an occupying force through song. 

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KimberStormer

KimberStormer

Brutal.  I kept wondering who the heck was telling them the plaza was opened when it was most definitely not.  This show is so unrelentingly bleak, it's pretty wild for Star Wars.

I hope space playboy Willmon can get out of Dodge with his latest space girlfriend, but I doubt it.  It's very odd the big scene with him and Saw made it seem like he was becoming Saw's man completely but there's no sign of it in these past two episodes.

On 5/7/2025 at 5:11 PM, KeithJ said:

I am now a little confused about Dedra. She knew all along what the Empire was doing on Ghorman and seemed to be on board with it. Now, after it happened, she's all broken up about it (I don't think that was for Syril). Speaking of Syril, I'm also surprised how she allowed him to manhandle her like that. She seemed to be the alpha in that relationship.

Honestly I just think she was traumatized by the violence she experienced on Ferrix and a lot of her relationship with Syril must be bound up in that, and violence from him was probably very triggering.  I am a little surprised she didn't go into "I will have you killed" mode but she also basically fell apart, as I recall, at Ferrix.  I think we tend to imagine that badasses are badass at all times but it's really not the case.

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tv-talk

tv-talk

13 hours ago, KimberStormer said:

Speaking of Syril, I'm also surprised how she allowed him to manhandle her like that. She seemed to be the alpha in that relationship.

What was she supposed to do? Being the Alpha in a bdsm relationship is role play- at that moment was real life. Remember she was upset by how fast everything was happening. Dedra for all her apparent cruelty and hardness isnt (or wasnt?) the sort to enjoy a massacre the way the capt did. She was hoping to be long gone but instead it was going down under her orders. She seemed very out of sorts, it was just Syril having lost his damn mind that made her seem normal in comparison. 

I suspect this incident turns her into the truly evil sort that so many of her peers are, the people who gladly order massacre of innocents and then enjoy watching it unfold. OR it turns her the other way, I cant wait to watch and find out.

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wanderingstar

wanderingstar

(edited)

It's taken me a few days to process this episode and gather my thoughts on it. Basically, this episode tore me apart. I knew what was coming, but it was still so harrowing to see it unfold. Carro Rylanz’s desperation as he saw the walls closing in on him and his people broke me (I loved Rylanz confronting Syril about his deception) The Ghorman Front’s desperate, doomed attempt to protest the Empire’s takeover and the terror of the massacre shook me. My heart broke again and again for the Ghor, seeing bodies drop or be tossed aside by those truly terrifying KX droids.

Syril Karn - what a waste of a life. So caught up in his own fantasy of the righteousness of the empire. It was remarkable to see his reaction to the scales falling from his eyes. Not at all surprised that he decided to take all his anger and self-loathing out on Cassian. As for Dedra, I wonder if she'll mourn Syril, especially after their last meeting.

Dreena's desperate message to the galaxy about the Ghormans being slaughtered seared my soul because of the many echoes to real life. I get why Will went back for her. He left Beela on Mina-Rau, and he wasn't about to do that again.

Still processing this episode and will probably have more thoughts later.

 

Edited by wanderingstar
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jah1986

jah1986

Amazing episode. It was just so sad as the Ghor started to understand what was really happening to them and that it wasn't going to end the way the hoped and they just started singing, so sad. The imperial sergeant realizing he was leading his men to certain death. The horror when they released the KX droids, it was brutal the way they killed people, poor Enya, I think I screamed too.

My heart was in my throat when Cassian and Wil were trying to get to each other. And Syril, he wasn't as horrible as Dedra, but I can't feel sorry for him. He was like Javert, only Cassian didn't have a clue who he was. He looked shocked that Cassian didn't know him. And almost like he wanted to know who he was too in that moment.

I think Dedra didn't expect to be around when the plan was executed, she maybe realizes she's not important to the Empire either, she could easily have been killed during the massacre.

So this is how Cassian got his droid?

Star Wars really knows how to do part two of a three part series.

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Ilovepie

Ilovepie

Watched this over the weekend and can't stop thinking about it. The manipulation was played perfectly to plan for the empire and the poor Ghormans took the bait. It was absolutely horrifying and I was so tense the whole episode. This show does impending doom so well. The Ghormans singing will stay with me. I loved seeing the utter chaos, and then there's Cassian - just calmly picking off storm troopers while waiting for his ride. Missed his chance with his target, but got some damage done. That guy has seen so much it's like it didn't even phase him.

I was so shocked when Rylanz shot Syril, but as I've thought about it, it's the perfect ending for the Empire pencil pusher weasel who has never even questioned what he was doing on Ghorman. His violent breakup with Dedra and shell-shocked walk through that plaza as chaos erupted - this guy finally confronted who he was and what he had done, and then Cassian appeared! What a fight! Kyle Soller killed it that whole scene - 20 different emotions ending in utter devastation when the guy he's been chasing for years doesn't even know who his is. RIP Syril. I will remember you.

Dedra did not ever want to be involved in the Ghorman plot and this whole episode culminated in her worst nightmare. Being the architect of this scheme and having to give the go ahead to commit genocide was too far, even for her. And the added loss of Syril. But the breakdown and then the shaky straightening of her uniform - she is gonna get past it and go on. I'm sure she will get a nice promotion for this. Just shows the Empire needed a lot of Dedras to work. She is but one of thousands complicit in subjugating the galaxy. I have loved watching this character, but I hope she goes out like Syril - unknown and alone.

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Shanna Marie

Shanna Marie

8 hours ago, Ilovepie said:

His violent breakup with Dedra and shell-shocked walk through that plaza as chaos erupted - this guy finally confronted who he was and what he had done, and then Cassian appeared!

I think that's a big part of the tragedy. Syril was showing signs of a conscience. He had potential for good and might even have switched sides, but he couldn't let go of his hatred for Cassian. I don't even think it was about justice for those guards anymore. Cassian was the scapegoat for everything that went wrong in Syril's life, and in a way, Syril may even have seen Cassian as responsible for the situation he was currently in. If Cassian hadn't killed those guards, Syril wouldn't have been fired, wouldn't have ended up in the Bureau of Standards, wouldn't have met Dedra, and Syril wouldn't have been involved in setting up that massacre, so all of Syril's current pain is Cassian's fault, and he appeared right at the moment when Syril had a lot of rage he had to let out.

Odd little detail that struck me early in the episode when Cassian was in his hotel room: His shirt looked a lot like Luke's gray uniform tunic in The Empire Strikes Back. I doubt Cassian was wearing a rebel uniform shirt while under cover, but they do seem to have incorporated that general style into the overall design of the show, so that the things people are wearing fit with the clothes in the original films.

The news reports they're playing at the end mention that they don't yet have a count of Imperial dead, so I wonder if what we see in Dedra and Eedy is actually a reaction to news of Syril's death. I doubt at that point they've found all the bodies and figured out who's a local and who's Imperial. Syril wasn't in any kind of uniform and was dressed like a local, and he was left in the cafe rather than in the square. Unless the Imperial who found him when checking bodies recognized him, it might take time for him to be identified and for people to be notified. They probably went through those in uniform first, then would have to check whether any civilian staff were involved. Dedra was likely reacting to the massacre in general and her role in it, possibly with the knowledge that Syril would have good reason to hate her. He was already mad, and after this he'd never want anything to do with her. Eedy was likely freaked out because she knew Syril was there and she couldn't reach him but didn't yet know he was dead.

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andromeda331

andromeda331

Damn that was brutal. I knew it would be. They were building towards it being brutal. I wondered if Cassian was being set up to kill Dedra for more of a excuse for the massacre. But nope.

Realizing they had been set up and trying to convince everyone unsuccessfully. The Ghorman protesting thinking they were making a big stand. Standing up to the Empire for the galaxy to see. The change from chanting to their anthem. I did make me think of my favorite scene in Casablanca. 

The massacre was so brutal. Syril finally realizing he had been used the whole time. I don't feel sorry for him. Of all the things he could have done he chose to instead attack Cassian. I loved that Cassian didn't even know who he was. I really hope Wilmon is okay. The expression on Cassian's face as he left the knowing people were still being killed and there was nothing he could do.

The poor woman on the radio telling what's going on and begging for help from anyone. Then she's killed. 

I don't feel sorry for Dedra or her break down. This was her idea and she spent all this time setting it up and using her husband/boyfriend to do it and lying to him. She hoped to be gone but nope got to see what she brought to happen. I'm glad Syril broke up with her but sad he didn't kill her. Even strangling her would have been fitting. 

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Shanna Marie

Shanna Marie

10 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Syril finally realizing he had been used the whole time. I don't feel sorry for him. Of all the things he could have done he chose to instead attack Cassian.

One thing he could have done was spread the word about what was really going on. He was the only person outside the ISB who knew what the Empire had really done and why, so his death kept that news from getting out. They'd already figured out about the mining ships, but Syril knew that the whole thing was a setup, that the ISB had encouraged the Ghorman Front to build up into an uprising they could use as a justification. He knew (or suspected) that Cassian was with the rebels, so if he'd told Cassian what he knew instead of trying to kill him, he could have atoned somewhat. But he let his personal grudge get in the way of letting something good come from what he'd done by using the info he had.

In light of that, I wonder if that had something to do with Dedra's panic attack. If she didn't yet know Syril was dead (which seems unlikely, given the chaos and the fact that he was dressed like a Ghor), she did know Syril was out there and that she'd told him what was really going on. He could have destroyed her by spilling what he knew and making it public, which would have made it clear she told him.

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angora

angora

God, that was so good. It made me think of "One Way Out" and "Rix Road," the way it slooooowly built up the tension to this huge clash. But while the previously episodes had elements of triumph to them, the Empire were the only ones who were winning here.

It was all just done so effectively. The anthem. The Stormtroopers kettling the people in the plaza. Sending the "green" soldiers into the crowd knowing they wouldn't be able to keep control--and then having a sniper hit one of their *own* men so they can escalate because, "Shots fired!" The K-X droids at the ready. God, so good!

I love that Cassian didn't know who Syril was, and it was even contrasted with him recognizing other people around Ghorman: the bellman at the hotel, the Rebel who crashed the vehicle into soon-to-be-K-2SO. Cassian's an observant guy who doesn't miss a trick, but from his perspective, Syril just has not been a major part of his story. Whereas, for Syril, Cassian has been an obsession for him.

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Kel Varnsen

Kel Varnsen

The Ghorman massacre was pretty brutal but it's awful to think how this is just the start and the empire plans to completely destroy the planet, after maybe relocating the acceptable people.

The Cyril/Cassian fight was really well done. I was surprised how much Cyril was able to hold his own in the fight. And the actor playing him did a great job at showing how much he hated Cassian and how he probably thought at that point that Cassian ruined his life. It's funny to think how different his life would be (and the whole rebellion for that matter), if that bar hostess had just paid more attention to those security guys in the first episode, instead of to Cassian.

On 5/12/2025 at 11:46 PM, andromeda331 said:

The poor woman on the radio telling what's going on and begging for help from anyone. Then she's killed. 

Was she killed. I thought the woman on the radio was Wilmon's girlfriend. And they didn't really show what happened to them. What I did think was good was how bleak and tragic they made the message. It wasn't so much that she was asking for help, but just for people to rebroadcast her message so the rest of the galaxy knows what happened on Ghorman.

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