S37.E10: Up the River Without a Joust

[PurpleTentacle]

Mark you are fine, but that doesn't give you the right to put your dirty shoes on the train seat! Get those things off of there!

12 hours ago, PhoneCop said:

IDK. I think about a friend who's on the spectrum and would never speak to his wife the way Jonathan talks to Ana (and would take issue with anyone who did). A single point of anecdata, but it makes me disinclined to cut him any slack based on a diagnosis alone. #freeana

Yeah my best friend is on the spectrum and she is the nicest person I know. Often a bit blunt, but not an asshole or berating. Also not always blaming others, like Jonathan does, if anything she blames herself too much.

I'm sure there are autistic assholes, but it's not an inherent trait of autism. So Jonathan might be autistic, but that's not why he's an asshole.

17 hours ago, vousviou said:

John and Jessica were eliminated in Season 22 without using their Express Pass at all!

Technically that's the worst non-use of an express pass, not the worst use. ;D

11 hours ago, aghst said:

But maybe the vineyard owners weren’t too happy about people leaving their car in the vineyard and running across vineyards.

Eh, doesn't seem like they destroyed anything and I'm sure production moved the car right away. I doubt they'll care.

In general people of europe aren't as crazy about "trespassing on private property!!!" as americans are. A lot of countries even have right to roam laws, meaning you are specifically allowed to cross fields and vineyards and these kind of things. Not sure about france. But I'm sure culturally, nobody gives a damn.

11 hours ago, Ancaster said:

But then we wouldn't have had the hilarity of Josiah (?) guessing two Asian countries as being part of the European Council.

European Council ≠ Council of Europe.

One is a governing body of the EU, the other a european institution, independant of the EU, that's job it is to promote human rights.

Weird part is: Those are not the only two organisations in europe that are similarly and confusingly named. It happens a lot.

Also Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan are members of the council of europe and in asia. So his guesses weren't that far fetched.

5 hours ago, 30 Helens said:

The discussion on race start times made me remember something else that was bugging me about this episode. Despite lucking into a non-elimination leg, Han and Holden had no consequences for coming in last the week before. There was no delayed start time, and no extra task to accomplish. Has this ever happened before? Because it seems to me like there has always been some kind of penalty, and it seemed a little unfair to the other teams that there wasn’t.

It was discussed above. Apparently that was the norm in the first 5 seasons (I don't remember, too long ago). Teams just lucked out.

But it might also be that the speed bump was simply edited out. That has happened multiple times before. We'll have to wait and see if somebody asks them, when exit the race.

4 hours ago, Netfoot said:

Classic TAR never imposed any penalty for benefiting from a NEL. I've never liked the idea and I am glad to see them return to this pure form of NEL, where you are not punished for not being eliminated. 

I think coming in last should incur a punishment. You should have been out. You are not, because we need to stretch episode count with limited teams. You better at least do an extra challange for that.

[Netfoot]

2 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

I think coming in last should incur a punishment.

It does.  Elimination.

If TPTB decree an amnesty from that consequence for this particular leg there is nothing that requires them to impose an alternative. 

[Ancaster]

8 hours ago, 30 Helens said:

Ah, thanks to both for explaining. I have seen all seasons but barely remember the very early ones. I do remember when people would have their money taken away, forcing them to beg from the locals. I always hated that, as I would have been very uncomfortable in their position.

I barely remember the previous episode!

I am constantly amazed here by how much people remember from earlier series - contestants' names, placings, incidents, etc.

[Fukui San]

The first seven seasons are burned into my soul. 
 

Some subsequent seasons fall out of my head immediately after viewing.  

[lilysmom]

IMO the team that lost the joust was penalized twice, by having to not only repeat it, but also by how far behind the next team was. For example, if the next team was lost and 2 hours behind, they would have to wait 2 hours through no fault of their own. Since the final team to lose had to wait just 10 minutes before they could leave, I think there should have been a time limit for how long earlier teams had to wait for the next team to arrive. If they didn't arrive within, say 15 min., the team waiting for them should have been released. When the next team arrived, they would have to wait on the following team. In all honesty, I didn't really pay attention to the length of times each team had to wait, I was reminiscing about how beautiful Strausburg was from when we were there 10 years ago. 

[Netfoot]

6 hours ago, lilysmom said:

IMO the team that lost the joust was penalized twice, by having to not only repeat it, but also by how far behind the next team was. For example, if the next team was lost and 2 hours behind, they would have to wait 2 hours through no fault of their own.

This is exactly why I am not in favour of the Head-to-Head or what ever it's called. Ditto the Intersection or any type of gimmick that could force a team to waste hours of time waiting on another, slower team.  Why should any team be penalized because of another team's poor racing?

They want team interaction on camera. But they eliminated the the ESM which viewers generally enjoyed. Because they don't just want interaction. They want animus. Blindsides. Back-stabbing. Drama.

What they really want is Survivor's ratings. And they think that if they make TAR as shitty as Survivor, they might get them.

Edited Friday at 09:10 PM by Netfoot

[Guigoaoshi]

Quote

 

Really good leg/episode with alot chance of placement, a bad use of express that avoid a obvious winner for the leg (that was well deserved since it was a extra easy to be earned). Not the most exciting tasks to watch (apart from the match at the boat). Feel for the boys leaving but I had a sense since editors gave them too little edit, specially in comparison with the other 4 teams (really, they need to work on that). Would be a greater episode had Jonathan be knock out every round at the boat challenge and eliminated at the end. But thats allright, pretty sure hes having major regrets for show himself on the show (unless they wont, but again, based on edit, I would bet on Josiah and Alyssa or D&D, again, editors...). Also, yes, dont like the NEL without a consequence. That could have made a difference here.  Also, about the Head to Head be fair, maybe they should have It right at the beginning of the leg, when It happens for them to start together.

Edited Friday at 05:03 PM by Guigoaoshi

[proserpina65]

On 5/7/2025 at 11:34 PM, iMonrey said:

But to give the editors credit, they did a great job cutting from Jonathan berating Ana in the car and telling her she was a lousy partner that was going to cost them the race to Josiah telling Alyssa neither of them were right or wrong and that he loved her so much. What a contrast. 

Yeah, I loved that edit.  The contrast was so stark.

On 5/8/2025 at 1:02 AM, mertensia said:

Cheese! As a good Wisconsinite I love cheese. I don't know how good I would be at differentiating between them, but I would get to eat cheese. And really, that's the important thing.

Some of the cheeses I would've known by taste, and two by appearance, but several of them seemed quite similar so I'm not surprised it took all the teams awhile.  But yes, CHEESE!!!!

On 5/8/2025 at 4:27 AM, Fukui San said:

Josiah not immediately taking Alyssa’s  perfectly timed suggestion to use the Express Pass was dumb and could have cost them the race. But at least he didn’t blame Alyssa for his stupidity and complained about every single thing

Yeah, that's the difference.  Josiah owns up to his mistakes whereas Jonathan blames Ana for them and berates her for things she didn't do.

On 5/8/2025 at 4:31 AM, PurpleTentacle said:

That might not have been the worst use of an express pass I've ever seen, but it certainly came close. You don't use it after you've already done a task for half an hour, unless you are absolutely hopeless and it didn't seem like they were. Even if you get out of there in last place, you can just hand in your express pass at the next task and pass most teams that way. The way Alyssa and Josiah did it was a massive waste of time. They were very lucky to still get second place. Could have been first.

They should've used it right away or at least after their first try at the cheese task.  They waited far too long.

On 5/8/2025 at 11:14 AM, vousviou said:

John and Jessica were eliminated in Season 22 without using their Express Pass at all!

John was a stereotypical wannabe alpha male who couldn't admit he couldn't solve a challenge. He watched other teams roll in, solve it, and put him deeper in the hole until everyone had passed him to the mat and the pass was useless.

Phil's reaction is amazing.

https://youtu.be/3fto_YewLOM

 

Oy vey indeed!

23 hours ago, Ilovepie said:

I still cannot fathom why they have staggered start times when they are all going to be on the same plane and there is zero drama about them getting on these flights.

Presumably there was always the chance that a team would get lost and end up on a later flight.

22 hours ago, chaifan said:

I can understand why Josiah wanted to hold on to the express pass - it makes sense to hold it to use it next leg to guarantee their space in the final 3. 

This was the last leg where they could use it and they knew it.  I'm thinking he was afraid that both of the detour tasks might end up being impossible and I get that, but it was not a good decision to stick with the cheese task as long as they did.

18 hours ago, iMonrey said:

And he kept saying "you messed up, you messed up. That's on you."

Never mind that he was messing up the cheeses he'd tried as well.

18 hours ago, kav said:

He realized this, and seeked out people after the race who helped him understand his emotions and behaviors and overwhelming brain waves.

He's way too far into adulthood to not have learned not to be an asshole to his wife, though.  So he gets no break from me for how he's treated Ana during the Race.

12 hours ago, kav said:

I disagree, you can never tell what a person is trying to do by what you see them do on screen or in person, only the actual person can say what they were trying to do at the moment.  As a person hearing his words, you have no idea what words he uses as coping strategies or what thoughts were going through his brain as he said them.

Berating your wife for your own mistakes is not a coping strategy.  Being neurodivergent is not a free pass to be an asshole.

[PurpleTentacle]

6 hours ago, Netfoot said:

It does.  Elimination.

It does not in a NEL. That's the point.

6 hours ago, Netfoot said:

If TPTB decree an amnesty from that consequence for this particular leg there is nothing that requires them to impose an alternative. 

Who said anything about requiring? They still should impose a punishment.

42 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

They should've used it right away or at least after their first try at the cheese task.  They waited far too long.

That would have been the best course of action, yes. But failing that, the second best course would have been to power through the cheese and use the express pass on the next task.

Edited Friday at 05:50 PM by PurpleTentacle

[chaifan]

3 hours ago, Netfoot said:

They want team interaction on camera. But they w\eliminated the the ESM which viewers generally enjoyed. Because they don't just want interaction. They want animus. blindsides. back-stabbing. Drama.

I do miss the little glimpses of ESM we had in the earliest of seasons.  But what I really really miss are the Elimination Station extra videos that used to be posted on TAR's YouTube channel.  I loved watching those!  I think we got a lot of inside info from those videos, as well as seeing which teams wanted to hang out together post race.  

I like the head to head competitions.  But I agree, a team shouldn't be penalized because an other team got lost or fell way behind.  I think the solution is to only have head to head challenges right after some equalizer - first challenge after all teams are on the same flight, or first challenge after a significant HOO where all teams would be bunched up.  Or, you make it part of a detour - you have a choice, do the head to head challenge (which may or may not mean waiting for another team) or do the alternative challenge.

And, just to chime in, I'm perfectly ok with a NEL being just a NEL.  A surprise save for the last place team, and nothing else.  No penalty, no additional challenge.  That doesn't bother me at all.  What does need to change is Phil's obvious telegraphing of when a leg is or is not a NEL.  Stop with the "WILL be eliminated" vs. "may be eliminated" vs. just not saying anything.  Just make every leg "may be eliminated".  Because that's why I like the NEL - it gives hope in any leg that your favorite team, who is horribly lagging behind, just may be saved.  Or, it makes me scream "this better not be a NEL!!!" at my tv, if the lagging team is one I want eliminated.  I'd just rather not know until the last team hits the mat.  

[Browncoat]

27 minutes ago, chaifan said:

I do miss the little glimpses of ESM we had in the earliest of seasons.  But what I really really miss are the Elimination Station extra videos that used to be posted on TAR's YouTube channel.  I loved watching those!  I think we got a lot of inside info from those videos, as well as seeing which teams wanted to hang out together post race.  

I loved Elimination Station, too!

[Cotypubby]

15 hours ago, kav said:

I disagree, you can never tell what a person is trying to do by what you see them do on screen or in person, only the actual person can say what they were trying to do at the moment.  As a person hearing his words, you have no idea what words he uses as coping strategies or what thoughts were going through his brain as he said them.

Got it. Spousal abuse is a-ok as long as you say “But I’m on the spectrum!!” 

 

Edited Friday at 07:47 PM by Cotypubby

[Netfoot]

3 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

They still should impose a punishment.

And I say they shouldn't.

[kav]

4 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

Yeah, I loved that edit.  The contrast was so stark.

Some of the cheeses I would've known by taste, and two by appearance, but several of them seemed quite similar so I'm not surprised it took all the teams awhile.  But yes, CHEESE!!!!

Yeah, that's the difference.  Josiah owns up to his mistakes whereas Jonathan blames Ana for them and berates her for things she didn't do.

They should've used it right away or at least after their first try at the cheese task.  They waited far too long.

Oy vey indeed!

Presumably there was always the chance that a team would get lost and end up on a later flight.

This was the last leg where they could use it and they knew it.  I'm thinking he was afraid that both of the detour tasks might end up being impossible and I get that, but it was not a good decision to stick with the cheese task as long as they did.

Never mind that he was messing up the cheeses he'd tried as well.

He's way too far into adulthood to not have learned not to be an asshole to his wife, though.  So he gets no break from me for how he's treated Ana during the Race.

Berating your wife for your own mistakes is not a coping strategy.  Being neurodivergent is not a free pass to be an asshole.

Unfortunately nobody knows what it is actually like inside the brain of anyone of the Spectrum, and the way they process and learn things is different.  Words can be a form of coping and processing.

[Lamb18]

18 hours ago, Cotypubby said:

It also doesn’t mean you get to behave like an abusive asshole.

 Jonathan is just trying to make an excuse for being a jerk. “It’s not my faaaaault!”

Wasn't that season 6 jerk also named Jonathan? If so, is that name associated with jerkiness on TAR?

[North of Eden]

Johnathan really does hate his wife doesn't he? She must just be a baby making machine for him. I feel like if there wasn't a camera he would have given her a black eye right then and there in that car. He blames her for EVERYTHING.

Anyway...not fair there was no time penalty for the dating couple not parking where they were suppose to..and despite the outcome that was one of the worst uses of an Express Pass ever. Who uses it at the end of a task not the beginning?

Not getting your own directions and relaying on following was a fatal mistake and a completely unforced error.

Edited Saturday at 01:30 AM by North of Eden

[iMonrey]

6 hours ago, kav said:

Unfortunately nobody knows what it is actually like inside the brain of anyone of the Spectrum, and the way they process and learn things is different.  Words can be a form of coping and processing.

I'm not inclined to give Jonathan the benefit of the doubt that he's been "diagnosed" one way or another. I'm not sure why anyone should be. What I do know is that nothing ever seems to be his fault.

https://existentialcafe.blog/2021/07/21/am-i-just-an-asshole-the-difference-between-autism-and-narcissism-and-why-it-matters/

[millennium]

Jonathan for the win!

(I figure that's the only way Ana gets out of this alive.)

Can't stand Carson and Jack.   Everything about them feels phony and performative.  Too bad the blue team was eliminated instead of them.

20 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

I'm sure there are autistic assholes, but it's not an inherent trait of autism. So Jonathan might be autistic, but that's not why he's an asshole.

Jonathan doesn't appear autistic.  But in fact, lack of empathy for others and having no filter between brain and mouth are two classic hallmarks of some forms of autism. 

[Skooma]

16 hours ago, Ancaster said:

I barely remember the previous episode!

I am constantly amazed here by how much people remember from earlier series - contestants' names, placings, incidents, etc.

I remember the early seasons of a reality show the best.  After awhile the later seasons just kind of melt together and I forget them in the main.

16 hours ago, Fukui San said:

The first seven seasons are burned into my soul. 
 

Some subsequent seasons fall out of my head immediately after viewing.  

Exactly.  It kind of stopped being burned into my brain after TAR7 with a few exceptions.

I do remember Mama Paulo from the horrible Family Edition (TAR8).  She and her family were the only good things about that season.  Season 9 was crap with all the teams I couldn't stand making it deep.  

Season 10 the only team I remember was Mary and her coal miner husband who had never flown in a plane until they came out to LA for the last "audition" to be on the show and had never been outside the US.  That's the TAR I want to see.  People who appreciate the gift of seeing the world.

I wish TAR would cast a whole season of people like that.  Similar to a lot of the people Phil had on his other show, "Tough As Nails."  Blue collar people want to travel just as much as anybody else.  They just lack the funds having to live from paycheck to paycheck.  But when given the chance the joy they have is wonderful. 

I can't stand the jaded teams that just take traveling around the world for granted.  Give me teams that put the AMAZING as in "amazed" back into The Amazing Race.

Finally I remember some of TAR11 because it was All Stars but the totally artificial so-called couple (the guy said later they faked that they were a real couple just to get on All Stars) and were made up from two separate teams from TAR9 ruined it all.

But after TAR11 All Stars it is a total blur with only a handful of teams remembered at all from then on for me.  I liked the couple from NC that won the first covid season and I remember TAR5's Colin back on that TAR vs Survivor vs Big Brother season.  A few other teams too but not many.

Edited Saturday at 07:01 AM by Skooma

[North of Eden]

7 hours ago, millennium said:

 

Can't stand Carson and Jack.   Everything about them feels phony and performative.  Too bad the blue team was eliminated instead of them.

 

Thank you! I cannot stand this pair especially Carson. Every  movement, every expression over exaggerated for the camera! Ugh just so grating...if it weren't for that damn hay field tripping up the bros we could have been rid of them weeks ago.

5 hours ago, Skooma said:

I remember the early seasons of a reality show the best.  After awhile the later seasons just kind of melt together and I forget them in the main.

 

But after TAR11 All Stars it is a total blur with only a handful of teams remembered at all from then on for me.  I liked the couple from NC that won the first covid season and I remember TAR5's Colin back on that TAR vs Survivor vs Big Brother season.  A few other teams too but not many.

I think Bopper and Mark are among the most memorable teams of the later years. An interracial pair of good ol' boys flying in the face of stereo types and being best friends. Then the Globetrotters stand out for infamously tormenting the young blond who was afraid of heights atop the waterslide.

Edited Saturday at 12:48 PM by North of Eden

[PurpleTentacle]

13 hours ago, North of Eden said:

Anyway...not fair there was no time penalty for the dating couple not parking where they were suppose to..and despite the outcome that was one of the worst uses of an Express Pass ever. Who uses it at the end of a task not the beginning?

Pretty sure there wasn't any "you must park at the marked parking" in the clue. It was just "race to the pitstop". How you do that is mostly up to you. I assume there was a "must drive yourself" in the clue, but that might have just been implied, since it would take forever to get a taxi in a small village and you are probably not even going to have enough money for it.

If it's not in the clue, you don't have to do it, so no penalty.

10 hours ago, millennium said:

Jonathan doesn't appear autistic.  But in fact, lack of empathy for others and having no filter between brain and mouth are two classic hallmarks of some forms of autism. 

Yes and no. There is a difference between the lack of empathy of a narcissist / asshole and an autistic person. Autistic people have the same feelings as other people and so they can understand them in principle. They also don't think of other people as NPCs, like a narcissist would. Where the problem comes in is that they can't read facial expressions and body language and so, most of the time, they don't know what you are feeling and thus can't empathise. However, when you tell them what you are feeling they can remember how similar feelings felt for themselves and can empathise.

Lack of filter also just means they are blunt. Not that they blame others for everything, like Jonathan does. That bluntness can also be positive. They'll tell you when you gained weight, but also when you lost it. To spin it in a more positive way, I'd say they are honest to a fault.

(Disclaimer: Everything said here is in general terms and may vary from person to person)

[meep.meep]

On 5/8/2025 at 9:04 AM, iMonrey said:

Same. It was kind of pointless because all the teams had to do was list every country they had visited up to that point. And there weren't that many of them.

Actually, one team (the Greens?) needed multiple tries because they kept guessing countries they had visited outside of Europe.  UAE, Indonesia, etc.

[Silver-hyren]

11 minutes ago, meep.meep said:

Actually, one team (the Greens?) needed multiple tries because they kept guessing countries they had visited outside of Europe.  UAE, Indonesia, etc.

Alyssa (?) and Josiah.  They did what I think TPTB was hoping for with this deceptively east trick question and forget about traveling through Germany to get to France.  

[kav]

12 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I'm not inclined to give Jonathan the benefit of the doubt that he's been "diagnosed" one way or another. I'm not sure why anyone should be. What I do know is that nothing ever seems to be his fault.

https://existentialcafe.blog/2021/07/21/am-i-just-an-asshole-the-difference-between-autism-and-narcissism-and-why-it-matters/

Well because the words came out of his mouth that said it, and by saying you are not inclined to believe a medical diagnosis you are disrespecting everyone who has gotten one, which can be a very long and emotional process for everyone involved.

[kav]

11 hours ago, millennium said:

Jonathan doesn't appear autistic.  But in fact, lack of empathy for others and having no filter between brain and mouth are two classic hallmarks of some forms of autism.

This is why awareness is important.  Autism is an invisible disability.  It is always there for the person who has it, but most of the time you can not physically see it.

[seacliffsal]

1 hour ago, kav said:

Well because the words came out of his mouth that said it, and by saying you are not inclined to believe a medical diagnosis you are disrespecting everyone who has gotten one, which can be a very long and emotional process for everyone involved.

Just because he says he has a diagnosis doesn't mean he does.  He may be telling the truth, he may not be telling the truth.  It's one's opinion to believe him or not.  He doesn't 'owe' us his medical history and he is free to say what he wants about his own person and his own health.  Because we are watching a t.v. show that he voluntarily participated in, even being aware of how he responded in the past to stress and pressure, means that I am able to comment on what I see during the episode.  I am not responsible to delve into his medical history that is not a part of the show and is being referenced outside of the episodes we are watching.

I have worked with many students with differing needs and medical issues.  All were documented and I did my best to support them in every way possible.  I do not think that not necessarily believing everything he says means that I am not being respectful to those who have received a medical/mental/emotional diagnosis, it means that I do not know whether he has received a diagnosis or not and that I am commenting on what the producers are showing me during the episode.

I think we should be able to comment on what we're being shown without having to go outside of the episode for more information.  I understand that there are many posters who defend Jonathon based on his post-season comments and explanations and I respect that position.  However, I think those of us who want to just comment on what we see during the episodes should also be able to do so without judgement.

[Rodney]

19 hours ago, Lamb18 said:

Wasn't that season 6 jerk also named Jonathan? If so, is that name associated with jerkiness on TAR?

There was a nice Jonathan, too.  TAR17's Jonathan (of Connor & Jonathan) was a nice guy, though quite a weenie, as he did no Roadblocks at all.

[kav]

1 hour ago, seacliffsal said:

Just because he says he has a diagnosis doesn't mean he does.  He may be telling the truth, he may not be telling the truth.  It's one's opinion to believe him or not.  He doesn't 'owe' us his medical history and he is free to say what he wants about his own person and his own health.  Because we are watching a t.v. show that he voluntarily participated in, even being aware of how he responded in the past to stress and pressure, means that I am able to comment on what I see during the episode.  I am not responsible to delve into his medical history that is not a part of the show and is being referenced outside of the episodes we are watching.

 

He has a diagnosis, he has said it in a podcast about the show, end of story.  You can choose to believe it or not, but it is a part of who he is as a human. The producers could not show anything about it, because at the time it was filmed it was not known yet.

Edited Saturday at 07:19 PM by kav

[Skooma]

7 hours ago, North of Eden said:

I think Bopper and Mark are among the most memorable teams of the later years. An interracial pair of good ol' boys flying in the face of stereo types and being best friends. ...

Thanks for reminding me of that team.  They were another example of a blue collar team who "got" the "amazed" part of The Amazing Race.

4 hours ago, meep.meep said:

Actually, one team (the Greens?) needed multiple tries because they kept guessing countries they had visited outside of Europe.  UAE, Indonesia, etc.

Greens got it in one.  It was the apricots that didn't.  LOL, yeah the color coding has helped me this season a lot.

1 hour ago, kav said:

He has a diagnosis, he has said it in a podcast about the show, end of story.  You can choose to believe it or not, but it is a part of who he is as a human. The producers could not show anything about it, because at the time it was filmed it was not known yet.

I don't care about the condition or purported future diagnosis of someone.  A person's condition doesn't matter.  Actions do. 

If Jonathan was a one-legged leper "bravely" hoping around the world but using his one leg to continually kick his wife I'd feel the same way.  There is no excuse on planet earth for battering your wife (or anyone) either physically or mentally or emotionally.

Actions have consequences and in this case Ana obviously has battered wife syndrome and has suffered much.  Why no sympathy for the victim here?

So no, no condition on earth causes a human to be cruel and sadistic like this.  It is a total disservice to people on the spectrum to remotely suggest otherwise.

Edited Saturday at 08:41 PM by Skooma

[kav]

39 minutes ago, Skooma said:

Thanks for reminding me of that team.  They were another example of a blue collar team who "got" the "amazed" part of The Amazing Race.

Greens got it in one.  It was the apricots that didn't.  LOL, yeah the color coding has helped me this season a lot.

I don't care about the condition or purported future diagnosis of someone.  A person's condition doesn't matter.  Actions do. 

If Jonathan was a one-legged leper "bravely" hoping around the world but using his one leg to continually kick his wife I'd feel the same way.  There is no excuse on planet earth for battering your wife (or anyone) either physically or mentally or emotionally.

Actions have consequences and in this case Ana obviously has battered wife syndrome and has suffered much.  Why no sympathy for the victim here?

So no, no condition on earth causes a human to be cruel and sadistic like this.  It is a total disservice to people on the spectrum to remotely suggest otherwise.

A person's condition is a part of who they are and I am sorry that you do not care about that.  His condition affects how his brain works in different situations, and that affects how his behavior and actions in certain situation.

Ana does not have "battered wife syndrome" and to even suggest that is totally disrespectful to any significant others of people on the spectrum who you have no idea what it is like for them.

[PurpleTentacle]

I just listened to the exit interview with Brett and Mark. Seems like I was right pitying the teams for having to travel with Deutsche Bahn. Their train was delayed by so much that they were stranded in a small border town between germany and france for the night. Even though they started in broad daylight and this a sub 3 hour train ride. You always have to be prepared for trains to be delayed by hours or to just be cancelled outright.

Though I'm not sure how it happened. Unless connections changed drastically in the last timetable change, the last two connections (it would have had to be one of those, since this was filmed 13 days before the summer solstice and the sun was so low, it must have been after 21:00, maybe even after 22:00) have you switch trains in Offenburg, which is a 63k people town, not something I'd call a small border town. But maybe american standards for what a small town is are just different?

If they really landed in a small town that might have been Appenweier, which would fit the description. But then that means that their original connection would have been two connections before the last connection there is. If their train was delayed by this much, why didn't they just switch connections and go through Offenburg? Did they not know that once your train is delayed for more than 20 minutes, you are no longer obligated to take the trains you booked but can take any train you want?

I have so many questions, that will likely never be answered.

[PurpleTentacle]

4 hours ago, kav said:

Well because the words came out of his mouth that said it, and by saying you are not inclined to believe a medical diagnosis you are disrespecting everyone who has gotten one, which can be a very long and emotional process for everyone involved.

I wish it wasn't true, but both ADHD and Autism are both under- and over- diagnosed at thee same time.

On the one hand you have people who have it and fall through the cracks, because they use all their energy to somewhow survive in a world that wasn't made with them in mind and don't have the energy to go through the process of getting diagnosed.

On the other hand you have assholes who want an excuse for their shitty behaviour and go doctor shopping until they find one that will give them the diagnoses they want.

I have no idea which one of them Jonathan is. He could be either.

[Mod-Tigerkatze]

Hi everyone,

how are you doing?

I’m dropping in to address the comments around Jonathan’s ASD.

I recognize that participants of (competitive) reality TV shows can be individuals whose actions and behavior can be frustrating and that any individual can be victim and perpetrator at the same time, just like there can be two victims in a partnership, two perpetrators or anything in between. I also understand that not all reality TV shows necessarily live up to their names and things may not always be what they seem.

At the same time, I’m curious: What do you know about ASD and how much do you know about it? What criteria are you using to assess Jonathan’s ASD? How do you know your interpretation of what you see to be true/How did you determine that the behavior/actions we get to see is/is not due to ASD? How might your own assumptions and/or prior experiences be influencing your beliefs or interpretations?

As the season progresses, kindly keep in mind that calling a mental health diagnosis or neurodivergence into question can be harmful to the those affected by the mental health issue or neurodivergence; it can be dehumanizing, invalidating and erode a sense of safety and inclusivity within a community.

That is not to say that there can’t be criticism. There absolutely can be.

Please remember, though, we’re a community made up of thousands of individuals from all walks of life. Our backgrounds, experiences and family histories differ, as does how we’re impacted by the shows we watch and the comments we make. Therefore, it can be helpful to take a moment before posting and consider how our posts might come across. What is the intention of our post? What sort of impact might it have and how might impact differ from intent? What is our knowledge of the subject and what are we basing our conclusion on? How do we know our conclusions to be true? What might be influencing our conclusions? What other options have we considered?

Beyond that, kindly keep criticism constructive, recognize differing opinions as equally valid and disagree in ways that respect the individual we’re talking about and/or are disagreeing with. “Listen” not with the goal to win the argument or be right but with the intent to understand and focus on actions and/or facts instead of the individual. That allows us to hold individuals (outside the community) responsible without shaming their identity and it helps us be critical while respecting the (humanity of the) individual we’re talking about.

Thank you!

[meep.meep]

1 hour ago, Skooma said:

 

Greens got it in one.  It was the apricots that didn't.  LOL, yeah the color coding has helped me this season a lot.

 

I don't know why I didn't remember that since I was listening to them blow it and thinking:  these people have $200K in student debt apiece?  Did they learn nothing?

[PurpleTentacle]

I just went back to see if I could maybe glean more information about what flight they booked. If what is on screen are the only options, they must landed in Frankfurt at 18:50. That means they would have never made the 18:56 connection through Appenweier. Which means they likely got stuck in Offenburg and Brett & Mark just have a very different definition of what a small town is than me (unless the timetable was drastically different back then).

But that also means they would have had over 4 hours to get to Offenburg to catch the last train to Strasbourg. How they didn't manage to do that is beyond me. They really must have slavishly stuck to the train they had originally booked, even though it was delayed by hours. Is it because they are american and with Amtrak you can't just take any train? Because every country in the EU has rules where you can take a different train if yours is delayed by X amount of time.

I miss old Amazing Race in these instances. Charla & Mirna would have sussed out that they could take a different train in 5 minutes and beat the other teams to Strasbourg by half a day. Of course they would have been stoped by the HOO at the council of europe, but still.

[Rodney]

1 hour ago, PurpleTentacle said:

I miss old Amazing Race in these instances. Charla & Mirna would have sussed out that they could take a different train in 5 minutes and beat the other teams to Strasbourg by half a day. Of course they would have been stoped by the HOO at the council of europe, but still.

As much as I loved them way more than the other team I'm about to list, there were two teams that season who would've sussed that out.  Charla & Mirna would've, but there's a chance that Colin & Christie might've done so, too.  (Well . . . Colin, really.  Christie was borderline useless.)

[PurpleTentacle]

1 hour ago, Rodney said:

As much as I loved them way more than the other team I'm about to list, there were two teams that season who would've sussed that out.  Charla & Mirna would've, but there's a chance that Colin & Christie might've done so, too.  (Well . . . Colin, really.  Christie was borderline useless.)

Ah yes Colin. A man who could figure out how to get great flights but not how to steer an ox.

Though Charla & Mirna were also in season 11, with no Colin around. He took another 20 seasons to come back on the race.

[Ancaster]

19 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Ah yes Colin. A man who could figure out how to get great flights but not how to steer an ox.

 

But it wasn't that he couldn't steer his ox, it was broken! 

Hmm, another blamer on anything/anybody but himself.

[Netfoot]

3 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

I miss old Amazing Race in these instances. Charla & Mirna would have sussed out that they could take a different train in 5 minutes and beat the other teams to Strasbourg by half a day.

It is very different today. I'm pretty sure they are told which travel agency to use. And rather than looking for faster options, they are "We want the exact same flight they got and the exact same train!" Or simply "Give us exactly what you gave them!"

The quality of competitor has fallen drastically. They can't read a map and can't do anything without borrowing someone's cellphone. It's no surprise that at the Council of Europe (or whatever it's called) they asked them to name four European countries that they had visited on the race and one idiot thought Indonesia was a good guess!

If this crop had to run the same race as on one of the classic seasons, none of them would reach the pitstop on leg #1.

[Skooma]

1 hour ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Ah yes Colin. A man who could figure out how to get great flights but not how to steer an ox.

Though Charla & Mirna were also in season 11, with no Colin around. He took another 20 seasons to come back on the race.

Colin & Christie were asked on to TAR 11 All Stars but Christie was heavily pregnant at the time so they had to pass.  TPTB would have loved to have Colin vs Mirna again but alas it was not to be.

But maybe it was for the best because a far better and reformed Colin came along for their second season.  They actually became my favorite team that second season even.  Loved seeing them leave Survivor and Big Brother teams in the dust.

Edited Yest. at 02:56 AM by Skooma

[millennium]

10 hours ago, kav said:

This is why awareness is important.  Autism is an invisible disability.  It is always there for the person who has it, but most of the time you can not physically see it.

I'll disagree and leave it at that.

 

[chaifan]

Re: trains...

My guess is there was a planned overnight in Strausburg, since the Council "task" had an HOO.  It's possible with the original train schedule they would have arrived after the Council closed, and would have been waiting until morning.  If that's the case, then production would have said you can't hop on another train, because that would split the cast/crew and arranging hotels for people in different locations would be difficult.  I know in the past we've seen teams sleep at HOO locations, but we really haven't seen that lately - that may be a new no-no.  So my guess is that lodging was arranged in Strasbourg, but they had to ditch that and stay overnight elsewhere.

My second guess is that teams didn't have enough money to purchase a second set of train tickets.  

 

[PurpleTentacle]

13 hours ago, Netfoot said:

The quality of competitor has fallen drastically. They can't read a map and can't do anything without borrowing someone's cellphone.

Might be true, might not be. We'd have to see how they'd do if they were really challanged. Of course they are going to take the way of least resistance, which is phones. Most teams read maps just fine, especially during the covid seasons. There have always been some teams who sucked at navigation.

13 hours ago, Netfoot said:

It's no surprise that at the Council of Europe (or whatever it's called) they asked them to name four European countries that they had visited on the race and one idiot thought Indonesia was a good guess!

They were not. They were asked to name the member states of the council of europe, they had already raced through. The council of europe has 3 members in asia (4 if you include turkey). So they weren't that far off.

39 minutes ago, chaifan said:

It's possible with the original train schedule they would have arrived after the Council closed, and would have been waiting until morning.  If that's the case, then production would have said you can't hop on another train, because that would split the cast/crew and arranging hotels for people in different locations would be difficult.  I know in the past we've seen teams sleep at HOO locations, but we really haven't seen that lately - that may be a new no-no.  So my guess is that lodging was arranged in Strasbourg, but they had to ditch that and stay overnight elsewhere.

I doubt production would interfere like that. The crew was never in Frankfurt, except the sound and camera people who travel with the teams. The rest of the crew flew to Strasbourg directly, that much is clear.

Also racers have to get their own accommodations during a leg. That usually meant they just camped out in front of or close the HOO, which shouldn't have been a problem, since it was summer. I doubt there has been a change with that. Also didn't we see that last season in sweden?

45 minutes ago, chaifan said:

My second guess is that teams didn't have enough money to purchase a second set of train tickets.  

You don't have to purchase a second set of train tickets. If your train is delayed for more than 20 minutes you simply hop onto another train with your existing tickets.

Maybe the problem really was that that seems to be hard concept to grasp for americans.

[iMonrey]

23 hours ago, kav said:

Well because the words came out of his mouth that said it, and by saying you are not inclined to believe a medical diagnosis you are disrespecting everyone who has gotten one, which can be a very long and emotional process for everyone involved.

So, in other words, because Jonathan claims he has been diagnosed, I am disrespecting anyone who has legitimately been diagnosed. Is that your argument? That nobody is allowed to question Jonathan? That nobody is allowed to question anyone who says they have been diagnosed? Out of respect for those who have been diagnosed? 

That seems to me a rather circular argument. 

Edited Yest. at 04:04 PM by iMonrey

[kav]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

So, in other words, because Jonathan claims he has been diagnosed, I am disrespecting anyone who has legitimately been diagnosed. Is that your argument? That nobody is allowed to question Jonathan? That nobody is allowed to question anyone who says they have been diagnosed? Out of respect for those who have been diagnosed? 

That seems to me a rather circular argument. 

First of all, you continue to be disrespectful when you say he claimed to be diagnosed, he is diagnosed, that is a fact and is disrespectful to say it is not real.  I am saying because he is on the Spectrum, his brain works differently and a lot more different in stressful situations when he is overwhelmed and not in control of his routines.  Until people can actually see into a brain of someone on the Spectrum when they are overwhelmed, yes you should not question what it is like BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO IDEA.  I am sorry if you disagree, however as I have said before unless you are on the Spectrum yourself or have a very close person in your life, you really are not aware of what it is actually like, which I do.

[chaifan]

Can we just set up another thread for the Jonathan/autism discussion?  This is going way off topic for the episode, and I really don't want to see it rehashed for another 2 episodes.  

[aemom]

I am not on the spectrum, but I am very close to several people who are.

I don't care whether or not Jonathan has a "real" diagnosis or not.  The one major problem that I see with his behavior is the inability to ever take responsibility for his own actions.  When he drove the car into ditch or any other time he took "too long," to do something, there was not a mention by him that he was at fault.  But every, single thing that Ana does that has a negative effect on the race, whether it be big or the smallest thing imaginable - well you can count on Jonathan to nitpick her into the ground with it.  When she is ahead of the pack, he can say nice things to her, but he is incapable of encouraging her at times when she needs it.

I do not see the autistic people in my life behave this way.  Ever.  Diagnosis or not, nobody gets a "pass" for behaving this way.  I cannot fathom how someone gets this far in life without their parents, teachers, colleagues, and friends calling you on this behavior and saying WTF and figuring out how to get this person some help.

If he is actively NOW trying to improve himself, well good on him, but I hope it isn't too late to try to turn things around and can only do so if he genuinely gets that his previous behavior was completely unacceptable and that he needs to make some serious changes.

[mertensia]

19 hours ago, Netfoot said:

It is very different today. I'm pretty sure they are told which travel agency to use. And rather than looking for faster options, they are "We want the exact same flight they got and the exact same train!" Or simply "Give us exactly what you gave them!"

The quality of competitor has fallen drastically. They can't read a map and can't do anything without borrowing someone's cellphone. It's no surprise that at the Council of Europe (or whatever it's called) they asked them to name four European countries that they had visited on the race and one idiot thought Indonesia was a good guess!

If this crop had to run the same race as on one of the classic seasons, none of them would reach the pitstop on leg #1.

To be fair, smart phones weren't around until 2007 (at least, in general public use). Don't tell me these vaunted Season 1-5 teams wouldn't gave been using them if they'd had access to them.

[Browncoat]

2 hours ago, chaifan said:

Can we just set up another thread for the Jonathan/autism discussion?  This is going way off topic for the episode, and I really don't want to see it rehashed for another 2 episodes.  

There is one:  https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/153474-jonathan/#comment-8657187

 

[aemom]

2 hours ago, mertensia said:

To be fair, smart phones weren't around until 2007 (at least, in general public use). Don't tell me these vaunted Season 1-5 teams wouldn't gave been using them if they'd had access to them.

I remember that when Nat and Kat were in the final leg of their race, when they came out of the airport, they asked each cab driver if he/she had a smartphone that they would be able to use.  Other teams just jumped in a cab and left, but they went through quite a few before they found one.  They felt that it was worth taking the time to do that, and I recall it coming in handy a couple of times that leg.  They also won, so smartphones and Google maps has definitely changed the dynamic of the race over the years.