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The View: Week of 1/6/2025

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falltime

falltime

Monday, Jan. 6 – A Day of Hot Topics, “The View” celebrates Ana Navarro’s birthday

Tuesday, Jan. 7 – Kat Dennings (actor, “Shifting Gears”); Amanda Gorman (author)

Wednesday, Jan. 8 – Glenn Close (actor, “Back in Action”); Diane Warren (subject, “Diane Warren: Relentless”)

Thursday, Jan. 9 – Pamela Anderson (actor, “The Last Showgirl”); James Longman (ABC News chief international correspondent and author, “The Inherited Mind: A Story of Family, Hope, and the Genetics of Mental Illness”)

Friday, Jan. 10 – John Quiñones (ABC News correspondent and host, “What Would You Do?”); Jamie Oliver (author, “Simply Jamie”)

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KittyQ

KittyQ

Sadly, Whoopi hasn't improved her understanding of current events, even with the advantage of nearly a week of updated information. She opined that it was terrible that people would use the New Orleans tragedy to blame "immigrants". Except that I don't recall anyone blaming "immigrants" (aka "illegal immigrants" or "undocumented people", not those who have entered the country legally) - it was pretty well established that this guy was born right here in the U.S. and was in the military for over a decade and this was reported very soon after the incident. So, no "immigrants" were blamed. There was a question whether he had any co-conspirators, but even that was cleared up by the weekend, so Whoopi's comment was wrong. Perhaps she assumes that is what everyone thinks. 

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Shrek

Shrek

(edited)
24 minutes ago, KittyQ said:

Sadly, Whoopi hasn't improved her understanding of current events, even with the advantage of nearly a week of updated information. She opined that it was terrible that people would use the New Orleans tragedy to blame "immigrants". Except that I don't recall anyone blaming "immigrants" (aka "illegal immigrants" or "undocumented people", not those who have entered the country legally) - it was pretty well established that this guy was born right here in the U.S. and was in the military for over a decade and this was reported very soon after the incident. So, no "immigrants" were blamed. There was a question whether he had any co-conspirators, but even that was cleared up by the weekend, so Whoopi's comment was wrong. Perhaps she assumes that is what everyone thinks. 

I've heard more than 1 Republican politician blame what happened in N.O. & L.V. on the "border crisis" & also "this is what happens when you don't secure your borders" was another statement. Now it may have been immediately after or the day after the NO incident but it was sure as hell put out there by several of them (Rs) as a way to blame Biden & the Democrats and immigrants for both incidents before too many actual facts were known.  I even remember thinking at the time that "he was a U.S. citizen so that made no sense" in regards to N.O. so we already knew he was a citizen before  these things were said.

Or is this not blaming immigrants directly in your view?

Genuine question as I haven't seen the show yet so I'm not sure exactly what Whoopie said but however it gets spun it was sure as shit said either directly or indirectly that it was down to immigrants, legal or illegal wasn't specified.

Edited by Shrek
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debbie311

debbie311

23 minutes ago, KittyQ said:

Sadly, Whoopi hasn't improved her understanding of current events, even with the advantage of nearly a week of updated information. She opined that it was terrible that people would use the New Orleans tragedy to blame "immigrants". Except that I don't recall anyone blaming "immigrants" (aka "illegal immigrants" or "undocumented people", not those who have entered the country legally) - it was pretty well established that this guy was born right here in the U.S. and was in the military for over a decade and this was reported very soon after the incident. So, no "immigrants" were blamed. There was a question whether he had any co-conspirators, but even that was cleared up by the weekend, so Whoopi's comment was wrong. Perhaps she assumes that is what everyone thinks. 

Actually, very early after the killings, Fox News said that the person was an illegal border crosser, and even after they walked back the falsehood, tRump continued to blame Biden:

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/trump-gop-allies-falsely-blame-new-orleans-attack-immigration-failures-rcna186022

So, Whoopi was not wrong.

 

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Haleth

Haleth

(edited)

Today’s show - Sorry, panel, you can pay teachers all the money in the world but you aren’t going to make kids want to study STEM if they think it’s boring. It most definitely IS a cultural problem in the US. American students have been falling behind for decades.

Amanda Gorman is such a delight and brilliant. 

Edited by Haleth
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TheGreenKnight

TheGreenKnight

(edited)

Just watched the first segment now--wow, Alyssa and Sara were full of it more than usual this morning. They were spinning overtime trying to pretend the decision to outsource jobs instead of being America First isn't the complete hypocrisy it is. As Joy said, they're the ones cutting public education funding that would make Americans qualified, and I loved her pointing out that Trump himself was never qualified for anything and for refusing to let Alyssa re-write what the topic was about.

Edited by TheGreenKnight
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bluegirl147

bluegirl147

31 minutes ago, atomic said:

Wow, so sad to hear about the passing of Meredith's husband. :(

I was home from work yesterday due to snow and I watched her game show and I thought I wonder how her husband is.

39 minutes ago, Haleth said:

Sorry, panel, you can pay teachers all the money in the world but you aren’t going to make kids want to study STEM if they think it’s boring. It most definitely IS a cultural problem in the US. American students have been falling behind for decades.

Kids in STEM classes are still looked at by some as nerds.  Being smart is still looked down on which never ceases to amaze me.

12 minutes ago, TheGreenKnight said:

They were spinning overtime trying to pretend the decision to outsource jobs instead of being America First isn't the complete hypocrisy it is.

The outsourcing of jobs and the wanting to bring immigrants here to work in tech is all about money.  Whether the jobs are here or in India or China American companies can pay those workers a lot less than they would have to pay American workers here.  It's greed plain and simple.

14 minutes ago, TheGreenKnight said:

As Joy said, they're the ones cutting public education funding that would make Americans qualified

 That is the conundrum Republicans have put this country in.  They want a less intelligent electorate so they will believe their lies but now we don't have enough intelligent people to do a lot of skilled jobs.

17 minutes ago, TheGreenKnight said:

I loved her pointing out that Trump himself was never qualified for anything

Even with his degree from Penn (that he most assuredly didn't earn on his own) didn't qualify him for the position he had in his father's company.  No other real estate company would have hired him. The only thing Trump was good at was selling himself. 

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KittyQ

KittyQ

Re: the education / working topic - there's a difference between the migrants entering the country illegally and the H1B migrants. Some of the panel conflated these groups. People entering the country without going through the official channels are not likely to be taking the jobs of data scientists, while H1B employees are recruited because (presumably) there are not enough American workers who could do those jobs. I don't know whether the salaries of the H1B employees are typically less than American workers doing the same job, but historically, most companies will pay as little as they can get away with because one of their main goals is profit. There are plenty of older workers who find themselves being edged out because younger people don't require as much in the way of salary (not that they are particularly underpaid) and benefits (think of the health benefit costs for older workers). 

As for the education system in general - there is plenty to fix there, for sure. Some say that the education system has lost its way, not concentrating on the fundamentals that are the foundation needed to develop higher skills, and taking on responsibilities that are better managed by families and other organizations. There is also the question of what students are interested in. You can push STEM all you want, but if a student doesn't want to learn it or doesn't have any aptitude, they won't succeed in it. Outside of school, social systems can help by giving those studies and jobs more respect and making them more desirable, even if they aren't that glamorous. Work long hours as a data scientist when you can make quick money as an "influencer"? 

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bluegirl147

bluegirl147

1 hour ago, KittyQ said:

I don't know whether the salaries of the H1B employees are typically less than American workers doing the same job, but historically, most companies will pay as little as they can get away with because one of their main goals is profit.

It's not just their pay. They don't qualify for benefits because they aren't considered full time employees. They are also not allowed to be part of a union.

1 hour ago, KittyQ said:

There are plenty of older workers who find themselves being edged out because younger people don't require as much in the way of salary (not that they are particularly underpaid) and benefits (think of the health benefit costs for older workers). 

And yet another way for corporations to make more money at the expense of actual human beings.  The fact corporate cost cutting (which is always cuts to labor whether it's labor itself or any labor benefits) is considered good business will never not be disgusting to me.

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After7Only

After7Only

(edited)
3 hours ago, KittyQ said:

Re: the education / working topic - there's a difference between the migrants entering the country illegally and the H1B migrants. Some of the panel conflated these groups. People entering the country without going through the official channels are not likely to be taking the jobs of data scientists, while H1B employees are recruited because (presumably) there are not enough American workers who could do those jobs. I don't know whether the salaries of the H1B employees are typically less than American workers doing the same job, but historically, most companies will pay as little as they can get away with because one of their main goals is profit.

I don't think they conflated the argument.  H1B visa holders are used partially to fill a need, but mostly because they are cheaper.   The visas are also valid for a limited period (I think 3 years).   So at the end of the 3 years, the company can just let them go and replace with a new batch of cheap H1B visas holders.   

The H1B effectively are used in the same way/purpose as those who are here "illegally".   They also provide cheap labor for companies who want to maximize profit.   

It's not necessarily true that Americans don't want these jobs.  They are well paying jobs, why wouldn't we?   There are some that believe that public education system is purposely kept low performing, and STEM careers are not heavily promoted or encouraged because companies prefer the cheaper labor from foreign workers. 

So to some the H1B holders are taking jobs that Americans could do if given the training and opportunity.   

 

 

 

55 minutes ago, Haleth said:

How does an H1B certification differ from a green card?

H1B is a temporary work visa.   It's only for a limited period.  After it expires they will need to pursue a green card or citizenship in some other way if they want to stay in the US.   A green card is basically permanent resident status.  Meaning they can legally stay and work in the US indefinitely.   

Edited by After7Only
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LoveIsJoy

LoveIsJoy

9 hours ago, atomic said:

Wow, so sad to hear about the passing of Meredith's husband. :(

I was gutted by the news.  For years, Richard authored a blog that was visited mainly by people with multiple sclerosis.  We talked about our experiences with MS.  He was such a brilliant writer even as he admitted his condition was getting worse and it was increasingly more difficult to post.  Every time he personally responded to one of my posts I felt a real connection to him.

A few years ago his posts became fewer.  I still remember reading his last post where he told us he was unable to continue because his MS symptoms had seriously deteriorated.  Since then, I have periodically wondered how he, Meredith, and the family have been doing.  I’m glad he was surrounded by family at the end.  I’ve always loved Meredith and he always acknowledged her as a true care partner who never defined him by his illness. 🥲

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KittyQ

KittyQ

3 hours ago, After7Only said:

I don't think they conflated the argument.  H1B visa holders are used partially to fill a need, but mostly because they are cheaper.   The visas are also valid for a limited period (I think 3 years).   So at the end of the 3 years, the company can just let them go and replace with a new batch of cheap H1B visas holders.   

The H1B effectively are used in the same way/purpose as those who are here "illegally".   They also provide cheap labor for companies who want to maximize profit.   

It's not necessarily true that Americans don't want these jobs.  They are well paying jobs, why wouldn't we?   There are some that believe that public education system is purposely kept low performing, and STEM careers are not heavily promoted or encouraged because companies prefer the cheaper labor from foreign workers. 

So to some the H1B holders are taking jobs that Americans could do if given the training and opportunity.   

My experience with this differs. When interviewing and hiring tech people, we were cautioned that if candidates were equally qualified, the requirement was that we should offer the job to an American rather than someone who needed an H1B visa. These jobs were not intended to be temporary, and dealing with visa issues can be a huge pain for the company. In a few cases that I personally know of, a position was offered to someone who (for various reasons) wasn't able to perform it for months, which affected the rest of the project and team in the meantime. To be fair, the people who got those jobs were eventually worth the wait because they did have great skills and talent, but it wasn't such a quick fix as people may think. 

The people I worked with that had H1B visas were not the software development version of landscapers or line cooks that we might think of when thinking of the jobs that illegal immigrants take. I have no information about how much they were paid, but I doubt it was not a living wage, based on what I observed. 

As far as cheaper labor is concerned, we saw plenty of that with outsourcing to foreign companies. That really was a situation where the goal was saving money, I think. Typically, those jobs tended to be less desirable in general to American workers because they didn't have a great opportunity for advancement and challenging work, which a lot of people (especially new graduates) look for. While the pay for those outsourced workers might be less than it would be here, it was competitive in their home countries. 

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Shrek

Shrek

16 hours ago, After7Only said:

 

  A green card is basically permanent resident status.  Meaning they can legally stay and work in the US indefinitely.   

There is no such thing as a green card, that's just a catch all that people use for various things but mainly it is a permanent resident card or resident alien card. It certainly does not mean you can live & work in the USA indefinitely as it lasts for 10 years after the first one which lasts 2 years & you can renew it after the 10 years without too much trouble but it does cost you $s. You could still be deported for quite a few reasons until/if you become a citizen but not everyone wants to become a U.S citizen for various reasons not least among them being the incoming president. 

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sugarbaker design

sugarbaker design

40 minutes ago, Shrek said:

You could still be deported for quite a few reasons until/if you become a citizen but not everyone wants to become a U.S citizen for various reasons not least among them being the incoming president. 

My dad was a permanent resident alien for his whole adult life from 1960, when he emigrated, up until his death in 2022.  He and my mom (who did become a citizen) worked hard, bought a house, raised 4 kids, paid taxes, in short, played by the rules.  I would try to explain to friends that my dad enjoyed all the rights of a citizen except for voting, running for President, and the possibility of deportation (prior to 9/11 that hardly ever happened).  He just never felt compelled to become a US citizen.  It was hilarious when we would travel as a family back to Ireland (in the 70's), upon landing at Shannon Airport, the flight attendant would announce that all Irish nationals would deplane first, my tipsy Dad (it was a six hour flight!) would stand up, raise his green Irish passport, look at my mom, me and my bros, and say "Good-bye Foreigners!"

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Glitches

Glitches

On 1/7/2025 at 9:20 AM, Haleth said:

Sorry, panel, you can pay teachers all the money in the world

What bothered me about the teachers’ pay conversation was that it sounded to me like teachers were being accused of not doing a good job because they weren’t being paid enough. I don’t believe this is true.
 

Higher pay might attract different people to the field of education, but it will not improve a teacher’s performance. People do not go into work every day and say “Gee, I’m going to do a lousy job today because I am not paid enough.” People are inspired by the work itself, not by the salary. 
 

According to the National Education Association, the starting pay for a teacher is over $44,000 a year. Average teacher pay is over $60,000 a year. This is not a STEM salary, but it is more than some other professions.

 

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Shrek

Shrek

1 hour ago, sugarbaker design said:

My dad was a permanent resident alien for his whole adult life from 1960, when he emigrated, up until his death in 2022.  He and my mom (who did become a citizen) worked hard, bought a house, raised 4 kids, paid taxes, in short, played by the rules.  I would try to explain to friends that my dad enjoyed all the rights of a citizen except for voting, running for President, and the possibility of deportation (prior to 9/11 that hardly ever happened).  He just never felt compelled to become a US citizen.  It was hilarious when we would travel as a family back to Ireland (in the 70's), upon landing at Shannon Airport, the flight attendant would announce that all Irish nationals would deplane first, my tipsy Dad (it was a six hour flight!) would stand up, raise his green Irish passport, look at my mom, me and my bros, and say "Good-bye Foreigners!"

Don't blame him, I've had one for 16 years now but coming back into the country has become a pain in the ass over the last few years with immigration officers giving me the third degree as to why I haven't become a citizen yet, a good old "because I don't wanna" just causes more problems now whereas 6 or 7 years ago it just got a knowing nod & now it just gets more questions & sneers from the officers. 

I'm seriously thinking of applying for citizenship and becoming a dual citizen before the cost becomes exorbitant & Trump kicks me out for being a British citizen & not murican enough.. 

7 minutes ago, Haleth said:

First half hour preempted for LA fire info. Normally I’d be annoyed but my son and his family live there. 

Hope they're safe & well.

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KittyQ

KittyQ

Meta removing "fact checking" - While journalists are supposed to use 3 sources to report "facts", and should know the difference between facts and opinions, fact checking online is not being done by professional journalists investigating a story. From a practical perspective, trying to monitor everything that millions of customers post and validate it for facts is extremely difficult and trying to do it well and fairly can end up with lots of things being flagged due to over caution.  Depending on algorithms or AI to make those calls doesn't make it more objective or nuanced because those things tend to be pretty broad. (As a really basic example, think about the rules you can set up for putting your emails into different categories; they may work with the easiest topics, but can also end up putting things in the wrong places). I don't know whether Zuckerberg mentioned this, but there is also a lot of potential for legal actions by those who suspect that they are being unreasonably and/or unfairly sanctioned, which I would think Sunny, as a lawyer, would recognize.  

It seemed a little lost in the discussion, but I think it is true that people give a lot of latitude to opinions and ideas that they agree with and are more critical of those that they don't. As individuals, we should try to avoid being too quick to dismiss opinions that don't match our own. IMO, those who call people names don't deserve attention. 

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Gemma Violet

Gemma Violet

(edited)
2 hours ago, Glitches said:

What bothered me about the teachers’ pay conversation was that it sounded to me like teachers were being accused of not doing a good job because they weren’t being paid enough. I don’t believe this is true.

I agree.  I was a teacher for a short time and I left it for a different job.  I wouldn't go back if you paid me ten times what I was getting.  There are all kinds of problems in the school system, i.e. parents kick up a fuss if you dare to reprimand their child, or they sue the school if you demand that the child adhere to the dress code, there's a mega-ton more paperwork than there was 40 years ago, children with behavioral problems are put in a regular class and disrupt the entire class on a daily basis, and then you have an administration that doesn't care or listen to your concerns, and so on and so on.  Yeah, saying the teacher are not paid enough was basically blaming the teachers.  The pay was the least of my concerns. 

Edited by Gemma Violet
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Shrek

Shrek

I don't know where I sit on the Meta getting rid of fact checkers issue as I swing from one side to the other BUT what I will say is that it stinks of appeasement & kow towing to a certain orange felon now that he will be in power as him & a lot of his supporters (Faux news etc) hate to be fact checked as they make up shit as they go along. The N.O. & L.V. incidents being the latest where they immediately stated it was illegal immigrants & the border issues that caused both when they were nothing to do with either, not that they go back & correct it for everyone to see when they are actually fact checked or just plain wrong as it's already out there & in a lot of cases is stated as fact rather than opinion.

Not a little like the fact that someone keeps saying that 38,000 Americans died building the Panama canal which is just a made up number & most of the deaths were West Indian workers & not Americans anyway. He is right saying that most died of Malaria but he's using the knowledge we have today about how Malaria is spread like it was known science in 1880 and early 1900s when it was built. The first attempt in 1880 was by the French when most of the deaths occurred due to Malaria & not America so again he's making it up to suit his narrative.  

But in the end I feel that the people who will benefit the most from it are the very people who need to be fact checked on an hourly basis and in some cases every time they open their mouths or write absolutely anything on any social media platform. 

 

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Mollywolly555

Mollywolly555

1 hour ago, Gemma Violet said:

I agree.  I was a teacher for a short time and I left it for a different job.  I wouldn't go back if you paid me ten times what I was getting.  There are all kinds of problems in the school system, i.e. parents kick up a fuss if you dare to reprimand their child, or they sue the school if you demand that the child adhere to the dress code, there's a mega-ton more paperwork than there was 40 years ago, children with behavioral problems are put in a regular class and disrupt the entire class on a daily basis, and then you have an administration that doesn't care or listen to your concerns, and so on and so on.  Yeah, saying the teacher are not paid enough was basically blaming the teachers.  The pay was the least of my concerns. 

I was a teacher all my life. 

Yes,  Gemma Violet, all true. 

However,  the pay was also a part of it.

It gets depressing to work so hard for so little. That's part of the reason why there is a teacher shortage, esp in STEM.

And spend my $ taking classes in order to get certified to continue teaching when new rules went into place. 

And spend my $ on supplies for kids.

Many teachers have side jobs in summer or pt evenings.

Administrators are paid quite alot more as well. 

Yes, those issues you mention are very real, but the $ is part and parcel of the dissatisfaction and diaspora of caring, highly qualified teachers also. 

 

 

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Natalie68

Natalie68

On 1/7/2025 at 9:09 AM, bluegirl147 said:

I was home from work yesterday due to snow and I watched her game show and I thought I wonder how her husband is.

Kids in STEM classes are still looked at by some as nerds.  Being smart is still looked down on which never ceases to amaze me.

The outsourcing of jobs and the wanting to bring immigrants here to work in tech is all about money.  Whether the jobs are here or in India or China American companies can pay those workers a lot less than they would have to pay American workers here.  It's greed plain and simple.

 That is the conundrum Republicans have put this country in.  They want a less intelligent electorate so they will believe their lies but now we don't have enough intelligent people to do a lot of skilled jobs.

Even with his degree from Penn (that he most assuredly didn't earn on his own) didn't qualify him for the position he had in his father's company.  No other real estate company would have hired him. The only thing Trump was good at was selling himself. 

And driving his companies into bankruptcy.  

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Natalie68

Natalie68

20 hours ago, KittyQ said:

My experience with this differs. When interviewing and hiring tech people, we were cautioned that if candidates were equally qualified, the requirement was that we should offer the job to an American rather than someone who needed an H1B visa. These jobs were not intended to be temporary, and dealing with visa issues can be a huge pain for the company. In a few cases that I personally know of, a position was offered to someone who (for various reasons) wasn't able to perform it for months, which affected the rest of the project and team in the meantime. To be fair, the people who got those jobs were eventually worth the wait because they did have great skills and talent, but it wasn't such a quick fix as people may think. 

The people I worked with that had H1B visas were not the software development version of landscapers or line cooks that we might think of when thinking of the jobs that illegal immigrants take. I have no information about how much they were paid, but I doubt it was not a living wage, based on what I observed. 

As far as cheaper labor is concerned, we saw plenty of that with outsourcing to foreign companies. That really was a situation where the goal was saving money, I think. Typically, those jobs tended to be less desirable in general to American workers because they didn't have a great opportunity for advancement and challenging work, which a lot of people (especially new graduates) look for. While the pay for those outsourced workers might be less than it would be here, it was competitive in their home countries. 

Trump uses H-2B visas for Mar a lago to attract low-cost, low-skilled seasonal labor. I am sure there are folks in that area of Florida who he could pick and would do a fine job.

Rich folk want cheap labor.  They don't want to pay American's because we require competitive pay.  We are worker bees and totally replaceable.  If they can hire someone who will take less they will.  I am expecting that to get MUCH worse.  

That is really sad about Meredith's husband.

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Gemma Violet

Gemma Violet

3 hours ago, Mollywolly555 said:

I was a teacher all my life. 

Yes,  Gemma Violet, all true. 

However,  the pay was also a part of it.

You're right.  I didn't mean to minimize the importance of a good salary.  At the time I started teaching, I was unmarried and living at home, and so a high wage was less of a priority, but I see your point. 

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Medicine Crow

Medicine Crow

1 hour ago, TheGreenKnight said:

Great show today. I'm enjoying the others refusing to walk on eggshells around Alyssa, it's refreshing. I was glad Sunny sat back and let Whoopi and Joy take the reins after she was done, it was better that way. Joy's quip to Sara in the middle of it all was hilarious.

I missed that ... what did she say?

Mollywolly555

Mollywolly555

IMHO, Alyssa was ridiculously,  rudely out of control today!

Interrupting, talking over others (esp Sunny), putting down their points-- to the point where it was hard to hear anyone-- which I'm sure was her purpose.

Hate speech, first amendment, facts, opinions, blah, blah, blah, etc. Alyssa's statements were a crazy word salad with no sense. Someone had too much caffeine or an ego boost from producer support.

Anddddd then,  Whoopi takes over to add her own insensible perspective, although that didn't stop Alyssa from interrupting  her either.  

I thought about rerunning it to see if I cd understand Alyssa's point, but I've got better things to do with my time. 

Sunny was remarkably subdued when Alyssa keep talking over her.

Sunny is formidable. 

Alyssa will rue the day. 

I hope soon. 

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Denize

Denize

14 hours ago, sugarbaker design said:

My dad was a permanent resident alien for his whole adult life from 1960, when he emigrated, up until his death in 2022.  

Up until ~1988 the US made you formally renounce your other citizenship before you culd become a US citizen, and then pay US taxes on worldwide income for the rest of your life. People who thought of working or retiring in another country in the future would think twice before becoming a US citizen. Now dual citizenship is allowed. 

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Soapy Goddess

Soapy Goddess

(edited)
2 hours ago, Mollywolly555 said:

IMHO, Alyssa was ridiculously,  rudely out of control today!

Interrupting, talking over others (esp Sunny), putting down their points-- to the point where it was hard to hear anyone-- which I'm sure was her purpose.

On the contrary, Alyssa has learned from the others (esp. Sunny!!) how to get her talking points in.  Giving Sunny a dose of her own medicine is hardly rude/out of control.  They ALL do it from time-to-time, especially Sunny & Joy!

Edited by Soapy Goddess
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shok

shok

1 hour ago, Soapy Goddess said:

On the contrary, Alyssa has learned from the others (esp. Sunny!!) how to get her talking points in.  Giving Sunny a dose of her own medicine is hardly rude/out of control.  They ALL do it from time-to-time, especially Sunny & Joy!

As Joy said, Alyssa has never needed lessons from any of the others on how to get her talking points in and today she was particularly rude and obnoxious, yelling and waving her stubby little fingers around. What annoyed me most was her smug condescending look after she talked over everyone.

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